routemasters are back in London

[[e-mail]]

[Recliner]

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
http://youtu.be/wyAWEoCV3YY

I wonder if Boris Buses will be brought back as a tourist novelty ride in
the 2070s?

[[e-mail]]

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
http://youtu.be/wyAWEoCV3YY

I wonder if Boris Buses will be brought back as a tourist novelty ride in
the 2070s?

I am over 60 now. I do not care :-)
However I really appreciate this londonbus project. Pity London Transport
withdrew the routemaster heritage routes.

[Recliner]

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
http://youtu.be/wyAWEoCV3YY

I wonder if Boris Buses will be brought back as a tourist novelty ride in
the 2070s?

I am over 60 now. I do not care :-)
However I really appreciate this londonbus project. Pity London Transport
withdrew the routemaster heritage routes.

TfL regards them as a tourist attraction, like the open top buses, not a means of transport.

[Ken]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 13:51:09 +0000, Recliner

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
http://youtu.be/wyAWEoCV3YY

I wonder if Boris Buses will be brought back as a tourist novelty ride in
the 2070s?

I am over 60 now. I do not care :-)
However I really appreciate this londonbus project. Pity London Transport
withdrew the routemaster heritage routes.

TfL regards them as a tourist attraction, like the open top buses, not a means of transport.

That reminds me of when the Vale of Rheidol line was sold. A BR
spokesman said that they were not in the business of running tourist
attractions. I didn't see why they thought that the journey purpose
mattered. Their job was to carry people on trains. What does it matter
whether those people were going to work, school, shopping or on a day
out? And if on a day out why does it matter whether they're using the
train incidentally to their day out (e.g. a day trip to a city or
resort) or as in integral part?
I'm not the only one on here who frequently uses trains for no purpose
other than travelling on that particular train/class/route. Should I
stop?

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Ken
On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 13:51:09 +0000, Recliner

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
http://youtu.be/wyAWEoCV3YY

I wonder if Boris Buses will be brought back as a tourist novelty ride in
the 2070s?

I am over 60 now. I do not care :-)
However I really appreciate this londonbus project. Pity London Transport
withdrew the routemaster heritage routes.

TfL regards them as a tourist attraction, like the open top buses, not a means of transport.

That reminds me of when the Vale of Rheidol line was sold. A BR
spokesman said that they were not in the business of running tourist
attractions. I didn't see why they thought that the journey purpose
mattered. Their job was to carry people on trains. What does it matter
whether those people were going to work, school, shopping or on a day
out? And if on a day out why does it matter whether they're using the
train incidentally to their day out (e.g. a day trip to a city or
resort) or as in integral part?
I'm not the only one on here who frequently uses trains for no purpose
other than travelling on that particular train/class/route. Should I
stop?

At that time BR didn't want to be in the business of running any trains,
they got in the way of tidying the paperwork.

[Recliner]

Post by Ken
On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 13:51:09 +0000, Recliner

On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 18:13:28 -0000 (UTC),

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
http://youtu.be/wyAWEoCV3YY

I wonder if Boris Buses will be brought back as a tourist novelty ride in
the 2070s?

I am over 60 now. I do not care :-)
However I really appreciate this londonbus project. Pity London Transport
withdrew the routemaster heritage routes.

TfL regards them as a tourist attraction, like the open top buses, not a
means of transport.

That reminds me of when the Vale of Rheidol line was sold. A BR
spokesman said that they were not in the business of running tourist
attractions. I didn't see why they thought that the journey purpose
mattered. Their job was to carry people on trains. What does it matter
whether those people were going to work, school, shopping or on a day
out? And if on a day out why does it matter whether they're using the
train incidentally to their day out (e.g. a day trip to a city or
resort) or as in integral part?
I'm not the only one on here who frequently uses trains for no purpose
other than travelling on that particular train/class/route. Should I
stop?

If they were TfL buses, they'd be subject to the accessibility and
emissions rules. Similarly, charter trains don't have to provide wheelchair
spaces and disabled toilets. They can also continue to have manual doors,
providing they have central locking.

[Ken]

Post by Recliner

Post by Ken
On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 13:51:09 +0000, Recliner

On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 18:13:28 -0000 (UTC),

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
http://youtu.be/wyAWEoCV3YY

I wonder if Boris Buses will be brought back as a tourist novelty ride in
the 2070s?

I am over 60 now. I do not care :-)
However I really appreciate this londonbus project. Pity London Transport
withdrew the routemaster heritage routes.

TfL regards them as a tourist attraction, like the open top buses, not a
means of transport.

That reminds me of when the Vale of Rheidol line was sold. A BR
spokesman said that they were not in the business of running tourist
attractions. I didn't see why they thought that the journey purpose
mattered. Their job was to carry people on trains. What does it matter
whether those people were going to work, school, shopping or on a day
out? And if on a day out why does it matter whether they're using the
train incidentally to their day out (e.g. a day trip to a city or
resort) or as in integral part?
I'm not the only one on here who frequently uses trains for no purpose
other than travelling on that particular train/class/route. Should I
stop?

If they were TfL buses, they'd be subject to the accessibility and
emissions rules. Similarly, charter trains don't have to provide wheelchair
spaces and disabled toilets. They can also continue to have manual doors,
providing they have central locking.

Weren't the TfL heritage Routemasters subject to those rules?

[M***@dastardlyhq.com]

On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 09:32:23 +0000

Post by Ken

Post by Recliner
If they were TfL buses, they'd be subject to the accessibility and
emissions rules. Similarly, charter trains don't have to provide wheelchair
spaces and disabled toilets. They can also continue to have manual doors,
providing they have central locking.

Weren't the TfL heritage Routemasters subject to those rules?

I'd love to know who it was - presumably to justify their non-job - appropo
of nothing decided one day that an open entrance at the back of the bus was
so dangerous that it had to be banned. I wonder exactly how many people over
the course of the 100 or so years they've existed actually were badly injured
or died trying to get on or off. I suspect next to none.

Ditto manual opening doors on trains. There's plenty of old films of adults
behaving like adults opening the doors slightly early at waterloo/wherever
as the train arrives and all piling off with everyone unharmed.

[Recliner]

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 09:32:23 +0000

Post by Ken

Post by Recliner
If they were TfL buses, they'd be subject to the accessibility and
emissions rules. Similarly, charter trains don't have to provide wheelchair
spaces and disabled toilets. They can also continue to have manual doors,
providing they have central locking.

Weren't the TfL heritage Routemasters subject to those rules?

I'd love to know who it was - presumably to justify their non-job - appropo
of nothing decided one day that an open entrance at the back of the bus was
so dangerous that it had to be banned. I wonder exactly how many people over
the course of the 100 or so years they've existed actually were badly injured
or died trying to get on or off. I suspect next to none.

https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/death-and-injury-figures-routemasters

https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/accident-figures-aid-routemaster-return-6899423.html

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Ditto manual opening doors on trains. There's plenty of old films of adults
behaving like adults opening the doors slightly early at waterloo/wherever
as the train arrives and all piling off with everyone unharmed.

https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/slam-door-train-killed-my-daughter-6329734.html

[M***@dastardlyhq.com]

On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 14:03:44 +0000

Post by Recliner

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 09:32:23 +0000

Post by Ken

Post by Recliner
If they were TfL buses, they'd be subject to the accessibility and
emissions rules. Similarly, charter trains don't have to provide wheelchair
spaces and disabled toilets. They can also continue to have manual doors,
providing they have central locking.

Weren't the TfL heritage Routemasters subject to those rules?

I'd love to know who it was - presumably to justify their non-job - appropo
of nothing decided one day that an open entrance at the back of the bus was
so dangerous that it had to be banned. I wonder exactly how many people over
the course of the 100 or so years they've existed actually were badly injured
or died trying to get on or off. I suspect next to none.

https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/
find-an-answer/death-and-injury-figures-routemasters
https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/accident-figures-aid-routemaster-return-689
9423.html

Next to none in other words.

Post by Recliner

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Ditto manual opening doors on trains. There's plenty of old films of adults
behaving like adults opening the doors slightly early at waterloo/wherever
as the train arrives and all piling off with everyone unharmed.

https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/slam-door-train-killed-my-daughter-6329734.
html

Darwin award winner.

[Julian Macassey]

On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 15:37:59 -0000 (UTC),

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Recliner
https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/slam-door-train-killed-my-daughter-6329734.
html

Darwin award winner.

How drunk was she?

[Blueshirt]

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 09:32:23 +0000

Post by Ken
Weren't the TfL heritage Routemasters subject to those rules?

I'd love to know who it was - presumably to justify their
non-job - appropo of nothing decided one day that an open
entrance at the back of the bus was so dangerous that it had
to be banned. I wonder exactly how many people over the course
of the 100 or so years they've existed actually were badly
injured or died trying to get on or off. I suspect next to
none.

I'm sure there were incidents from time to time, but people do
have to be responsible for their own actions. If used properly,
as in, get on and off the bus whilst it is stopped at a bus
stop, an open entrance at the back of a bus is no more dangerous
than getting out of bed in the morning. Everything we do in life
carries some degree of risk.

Now, everyone has to be wrapped in cotton wool and society seems
to be full of idiots who like to blame everyone else if some
mishap occurs because of their own actions.

[M***@dastardlyhq.com]

On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 15:54:37 +0100

Post by Blueshirt

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 09:32:23 +0000

Post by Ken
Weren't the TfL heritage Routemasters subject to those rules?

I'd love to know who it was - presumably to justify their
non-job - appropo of nothing decided one day that an open
entrance at the back of the bus was so dangerous that it had
to be banned. I wonder exactly how many people over the course
of the 100 or so years they've existed actually were badly
injured or died trying to get on or off. I suspect next to
none.

I'm sure there were incidents from time to time, but people do
have to be responsible for their own actions. If used properly,
as in, get on and off the bus whilst it is stopped at a bus
stop, an open entrance at the back of a bus is no more dangerous
than getting out of bed in the morning. Everything we do in life
carries some degree of risk.
Now, everyone has to be wrapped in cotton wool and society seems
to be full of idiots who like to blame everyone else if some
mishap occurs because of their own actions.

And solicitors just waiting for any chance to screw money out of whoever.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Blueshirt

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 09:32:23 +0000

Post by Ken
Weren't the TfL heritage Routemasters subject to those rules?

I'd love to know who it was - presumably to justify their
non-job - appropo of nothing decided one day that an open
entrance at the back of the bus was so dangerous that it had
to be banned. I wonder exactly how many people over the course
of the 100 or so years they've existed actually were badly
injured or died trying to get on or off. I suspect next to
none.

I'm sure there were incidents from time to time, but people do
have to be responsible for their own actions. If used properly,
as in, get on and off the bus whilst it is stopped at a bus
stop, an open entrance at the back of a bus is no more dangerous
than getting out of bed in the morning. Everything we do in life
carries some degree of risk.
Now, everyone has to be wrapped in cotton wool and society seems
to be full of idiots who like to blame everyone else if some
mishap occurs because of their own actions.

More to do with society being full of people willing to sue companies at
the slightest provocation.

[Ken]

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 09:32:23 +0000

Post by Ken

Post by Recliner
If they were TfL buses, they'd be subject to the accessibility and
emissions rules. Similarly, charter trains don't have to provide wheelchair
spaces and disabled toilets. They can also continue to have manual doors,
providing they have central locking.

Weren't the TfL heritage Routemasters subject to those rules?

I'd love to know who it was - presumably to justify their non-job - appropo
of nothing decided one day that an open entrance at the back of the bus was
so dangerous that it had to be banned. I wonder exactly how many people over
the course of the 100 or so years they've existed actually were badly injured
or died trying to get on or off. I suspect next to none.

I do remember an inquest where the coroner wrote to the authorities
about the matter after a French tourist fell off and was killed. But
are they banned? Boris buses had the doors open when a conductor was
on board - that was Boris' selling point, that you can hop on and off.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Ditto manual opening doors on trains. There's plenty of old films of adults
behaving like adults opening the doors slightly early at waterloo/wherever
as the train arrives and all piling off with everyone unharmed.

I managed to open a door on a Southern unit at about 80mph by idly
doing something or other with the handle. It was one of those internal
handles that are normally pretty hard to open. I'm not sure exactly
what happened but suddenly the wind took the door and it slammed into
the side of the train at full tilt, nearly taking me with it. A friend
with me at the time claims she still has nightmares about it.

Slam doors were unnecessarily dangerous in a modern age when better
alternatives exist. Not only did people fall out but people on
platforms were often fetched a severe clout to the point that BR used
to run campaigns telling passengers not to open doors until the train
had stopped.

The class 306 units had sliding doors before 1950 yet BR abandoned the
idea with its Eastleigh designs throughout the 50s and 60s. They
didn't adopt power doors until, when? The PEPs? So the 1970s.

[M***@dastardlyhq.com]

On Thu, 14 Mar 2024 08:20:27 +0000

Post by Ken

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 09:32:23 +0000

Post by Ken

Post by Recliner
If they were TfL buses, they'd be subject to the accessibility and
emissions rules. Similarly, charter trains don't have to provide wheelchair
spaces and disabled toilets. They can also continue to have manual doors,
providing they have central locking.

Weren't the TfL heritage Routemasters subject to those rules?

I'd love to know who it was - presumably to justify their non-job - appropo
of nothing decided one day that an open entrance at the back of the bus was
so dangerous that it had to be banned. I wonder exactly how many people over
the course of the 100 or so years they've existed actually were badly injured
or died trying to get on or off. I suspect next to none.

I do remember an inquest where the coroner wrote to the authorities
about the matter after a French tourist fell off and was killed. But
are they banned? Boris buses had the doors open when a conductor was
on board - that was Boris' selling point, that you can hop on and off.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Ditto manual opening doors on trains. There's plenty of old films of adults
behaving like adults opening the doors slightly early at waterloo/wherever
as the train arrives and all piling off with everyone unharmed.

I managed to open a door on a Southern unit at about 80mph by idly
doing something or other with the handle. It was one of those internal

Sounds like the handle mechanism was broken. But perhaps playing with a door
lock while leaning on the door and the train doing 80mph wasn't such a clever
idea either.

Post by Ken
Slam doors were unnecessarily dangerous in a modern age when better
alternatives exist. Not only did people fall out but people on

If we had the indian system of no doors altogether on some trains I suspect
the survival instinct would kick in and almost no people would be hurt or
killed.

Post by Ken
The class 306 units had sliding doors before 1950 yet BR abandoned the
idea with its Eastleigh designs throughout the 50s and 60s. They
didn't adopt power doors until, when? The PEPs? So the 1970s.

Power doors have been known to open on the move too.

[Ken]

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 14 Mar 2024 08:20:27 +0000

Post by Ken

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 13 Mar 2024 09:32:23 +0000

Post by Ken

Post by Recliner
If they were TfL buses, they'd be subject to the accessibility and
emissions rules. Similarly, charter trains don't have to provide wheelchair
spaces and disabled toilets. They can also continue to have manual doors,
providing they have central locking.

Weren't the TfL heritage Routemasters subject to those rules?

I'd love to know who it was - presumably to justify their non-job - appropo
of nothing decided one day that an open entrance at the back of the bus was
so dangerous that it had to be banned. I wonder exactly how many people over
the course of the 100 or so years they've existed actually were badly injured
or died trying to get on or off. I suspect next to none.

I do remember an inquest where the coroner wrote to the authorities
about the matter after a French tourist fell off and was killed. But
are they banned? Boris buses had the doors open when a conductor was
on board - that was Boris' selling point, that you can hop on and off.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Ditto manual opening doors on trains. There's plenty of old films of adults
behaving like adults opening the doors slightly early at waterloo/wherever
as the train arrives and all piling off with everyone unharmed.

I managed to open a door on a Southern unit at about 80mph by idly
doing something or other with the handle. It was one of those internal

Sounds like the handle mechanism was broken. But perhaps playing with a door
lock while leaning on the door and the train doing 80mph wasn't such a clever
idea either.

Agreed.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Ken
Slam doors were unnecessarily dangerous in a modern age when better
alternatives exist. Not only did people fall out but people on

If we had the indian system of no doors altogether on some trains I suspect
the survival instinct would kick in and almost no people would be hurt or
killed.

I remember my first day in Bombay (as it was) looking at the Times of
India that had just been posted under my door. It said that over 500
people had been killed on the Eastern Railway alone (I assume in a
year). The split between pedestrians and riders wasn't made clear. But
by your logic presumably wandering over the track is fine, too, due to
that same survival instinct?

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Ken
The class 306 units had sliding doors before 1950 yet BR abandoned the
idea with its Eastleigh designs throughout the 50s and 60s. They
didn't adopt power doors until, when? The PEPs? So the 1970s.

Power doors have been known to open on the move too.

[M***@dastardlyhq.com]

On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 09:23:12 +0000

Post by Ken

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Ken
Slam doors were unnecessarily dangerous in a modern age when better
alternatives exist. Not only did people fall out but people on

If we had the indian system of no doors altogether on some trains I suspect
the survival instinct would kick in and almost no people would be hurt or
killed.

I remember my first day in Bombay (as it was) looking at the Times of
India that had just been posted under my door. It said that over 500
people had been killed on the Eastern Railway alone (I assume in a
year). The split between pedestrians and riders wasn't made clear. But

Bear in mind that assuming this was a few decades ago, even then india would
have had a population 10x the UK. But yes, 500 is still a lot and I suspect
it was people wandering on the track mostly.

Post by Ken
by your logic presumably wandering over the track is fine, too, due to
that same survival instinct?

If they die its their lookout, so long as it doesn't delay the train.
Unfortunatly in this country everything has to grind to a halt even if someone
has seen a dog remotely near the line never mind a person.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Ken
Slam doors were unnecessarily dangerous in a modern age when better
alternatives exist. Not only did people fall out but people on
platforms were often fetched a severe clout to the point that BR used
to run campaigns telling passengers not to open doors until the train
had stopped.

There was a famous Southern Region poster showing a train arriving at
Waterloo with commuters opening the doors half way down the platform and
a young woman foreground stretched out on the ground having been struck
by a door.

[M***@dastardlyhq.com]

On Thu, 14 Mar 2024 09:37:30 +0000

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Ken
Slam doors were unnecessarily dangerous in a modern age when better
alternatives exist. Not only did people fall out but people on
platforms were often fetched a severe clout to the point that BR used
to run campaigns telling passengers not to open doors until the train
had stopped.

There was a famous Southern Region poster showing a train arriving at
Waterloo with commuters opening the doors half way down the platform and
a young woman foreground stretched out on the ground having been struck
by a door.

Why was she standing on a platform within a doors length of the track facing
the wrong way and was presumably deaf too? Doesn't make much sense.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 14 Mar 2024 09:37:30 +0000

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Ken
Slam doors were unnecessarily dangerous in a modern age when better
alternatives exist. Not only did people fall out but people on
platforms were often fetched a severe clout to the point that BR used
to run campaigns telling passengers not to open doors until the train
had stopped.

There was a famous Southern Region poster showing a train arriving at
Waterloo with commuters opening the doors half way down the platform and
a young woman foreground stretched out on the ground having been struck
by a door.

Why was she standing on a platform within a doors length of the track facing
the wrong way and was presumably deaf too? Doesn't make much sense.

Ever seen a crowded platform at Waterloo in the 1950s?

Anyway it was a poster!

[Marland]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Ken
Slam doors were unnecessarily dangerous in a modern age when better
alternatives exist. Not only did people fall out but people on
platforms were often fetched a severe clout to the point that BR used
to run campaigns telling passengers not to open doors until the train
had stopped.

There was a famous Southern Region poster showing a train arriving at
Waterloo with commuters opening the doors half way down the platform and
a young woman foreground stretched out on the ground having been struck
by a door.

Its a bit ironic though that there were no platform markings to indicate
the area an opened door would intrude into , now there are no longer such
doors in everyday use we have yellow lines set back from the platform edge
with passengers informed by notices and sometimes enforced by staff that
they must stand behind the yellow line. Made sense when fast services like
the HST first started barreling through many places but you still get such
lines applied to Stations like Barnstaple , Gunnislake and loads of others
where a high speed pass would be unwise.

GH

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Marland

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Ken
Slam doors were unnecessarily dangerous in a modern age when better
alternatives exist. Not only did people fall out but people on
platforms were often fetched a severe clout to the point that BR used
to run campaigns telling passengers not to open doors until the train
had stopped.

There was a famous Southern Region poster showing a train arriving at
Waterloo with commuters opening the doors half way down the platform and
a young woman foreground stretched out on the ground having been struck
by a door.

Its a bit ironic though that there were no platform markings to indicate
the area an opened door would intrude into , now there are no longer such
doors in everyday use we have yellow lines set back from the platform edge
with passengers informed by notices and sometimes enforced by staff that
they must stand behind the yellow line. Made sense when fast services like
the HST first started barreling through many places but you still get such
lines applied to Stations like Barnstaple , Gunnislake and loads of others
where a high speed pass would be unwise.

Not just high speed trains, a container train passing at a more moderate
speed can cause problems with the different air disturbances created by
the gaps between the containers.

[Marland]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Marland

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Ken
Slam doors were unnecessarily dangerous in a modern age when better
alternatives exist. Not only did people fall out but people on
platforms were often fetched a severe clout to the point that BR used
to run campaigns telling passengers not to open doors until the train
had stopped.

There was a famous Southern Region poster showing a train arriving at
Waterloo with commuters opening the doors half way down the platform and
a young woman foreground stretched out on the ground having been struck
by a door.

Its a bit ironic though that there were no platform markings to indicate
the area an opened door would intrude into , now there are no longer such
doors in everyday use we have yellow lines set back from the platform edge
with passengers informed by notices and sometimes enforced by staff that
they must stand behind the yellow line. Made sense when fast services like
the HST first started barreling through many places but you still get such
lines applied to Stations like Barnstaple , Gunnislake and loads of others
where a high speed pass would be unwise.

Not just high speed trains, a container train passing at a more moderate
speed can cause problems with the different air disturbances created by
the gaps between the containers.

I avoided mentioning those for brevity, compared to the network as a whole
they don’t run on too many routes . Like the stations I mentioned above if
a container train is passing along much of the network something will be
very out of sorts.

GH

[Recliner]

Post by Ken

Post by Recliner

Post by Ken
On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 13:51:09 +0000, Recliner

On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 18:13:28 -0000 (UTC),

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
http://youtu.be/wyAWEoCV3YY

I wonder if Boris Buses will be brought back as a tourist novelty ride in
the 2070s?

I am over 60 now. I do not care :-)
However I really appreciate this londonbus project. Pity London Transport
withdrew the routemaster heritage routes.

TfL regards them as a tourist attraction, like the open top buses, not a
means of transport.

That reminds me of when the Vale of Rheidol line was sold. A BR
spokesman said that they were not in the business of running tourist
attractions. I didn't see why they thought that the journey purpose
mattered. Their job was to carry people on trains. What does it matter
whether those people were going to work, school, shopping or on a day
out? And if on a day out why does it matter whether they're using the
train incidentally to their day out (e.g. a day trip to a city or
resort) or as in integral part?
I'm not the only one on here who frequently uses trains for no purpose
other than travelling on that particular train/class/route. Should I
stop?

If they were TfL buses, they'd be subject to the accessibility and
emissions rules. Similarly, charter trains don't have to provide wheelchair
spaces and disabled toilets. They can also continue to have manual doors,
providing they have central locking.

Weren't the TfL heritage Routemasters subject to those rules?

I think they were exempted as normal, modern buses also operated on those
routes. But I don't think TfL would want to operate any non-ULEZ-compliant
buses now.

[[e-mail]]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 18:13:28 -0000 (UTC),

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
http://youtu.be/wyAWEoCV3YY

I wonder if Boris Buses will be brought back as a tourist novelty ride in
the 2070s?

I am over 60 now. I do not care :-)
However I really appreciate this londonbus project. Pity London Transport
withdrew the routemaster heritage routes.

TfL regards them as a tourist attraction, like the open top buses, not a
means of transport.

I do not consider these routmaster just as a „tourist attraction”.
Routmasters are the part of London tradition I would rather say. Many,
well, at least some Londoners love them too.

[Recliner]

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world

On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 18:13:28 -0000 (UTC),

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
http://youtu.be/wyAWEoCV3YY

I wonder if Boris Buses will be brought back as a tourist novelty ride in
the 2070s?

I am over 60 now. I do not care :-)
However I really appreciate this londonbus project. Pity London Transport
withdrew the routemaster heritage routes.

TfL regards them as a tourist attraction, like the open top buses, not a
means of transport.

I do not consider these routmaster just as a „tourist attraction”.

London has lots of history that tourists come to visit. But those
historical artefacts are not part of the modern infrastructure of the city.

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
Routmasters are the part of London tradition I would rather say. Many,
well, at least some Londoners love them too.

I like seeing them, but I'd much rather travel on a modern bus. Leave them
for the tourists, while the modern world uses modern technology.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
I do not consider these routmaster just as a „tourist attraction”.

London has lots of history that tourists come to visit. But those
historical artefacts are not part of the modern infrastructure of the city.

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
Routmasters are the part of London tradition I would rather say. Many,
well, at least some Londoners love them too.

I like seeing them, but I'd much rather travel on a modern bus. Leave them
for the tourists, while the modern world uses modern technology.

That argument falls a bit flat when you consider the modern tecnhology
is a Boris bus!

[Recliner]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
I do not consider these routmaster just as a „tourist attraction”.

London has lots of history that tourists come to visit. But those
historical artefacts are not part of the modern infrastructure of the city.

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
Routmasters are the part of London tradition I would rather say. Many,
well, at least some Londoners love them too.

I like seeing them, but I'd much rather travel on a modern bus. Leave them
for the tourists, while the modern world uses modern technology.

That argument falls a bit flat when you consider the modern tecnhology
is a Boris bus!

Not any more. The modern buses I'm thinking of are the smooth, quiet
electric double-deckers.

[Theo]

Post by Recliner

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
I do not consider these routmaster just as a „tourist attraction”.

London has lots of history that tourists come to visit. But those
historical artefacts are not part of the modern infrastructure of the city.

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
Routmasters are the part of London tradition I would rather say. Many,
well, at least some Londoners love them too.

I like seeing them, but I'd much rather travel on a modern bus. Leave them
for the tourists, while the modern world uses modern technology.

That argument falls a bit flat when you consider the modern tecnhology
is a Boris bus!

Not any more. The modern buses I'm thinking of are the smooth, quiet
electric double-deckers.

I wonder how long it'll be before Boris buses appear on the used market.
The early ones are now 12 years old - not sure what the service life of a
regular London bus is, but they must be getting towards that.

The original Routemasters lasted a long time because they were endlessly
refurbished, but that doesn't happen today. Given the many problems they
have, I'd expect operators would much rather replace them with new electric
buses - especially the Euro 5 examples.

Maybe at some point TfL will cut their losses?

Perhaps Skopje would like some to go alongside their faux Routemasters?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yutong_City_Master

Theo

[Recliner]

Post by Theo

Post by Recliner

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
I do not consider these routmaster just as a „tourist attraction”.

London has lots of history that tourists come to visit. But those
historical artefacts are not part of the modern infrastructure of the city.

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
Routmasters are the part of London tradition I would rather say. Many,
well, at least some Londoners love them too.

I like seeing them, but I'd much rather travel on a modern bus. Leave them
for the tourists, while the modern world uses modern technology.

That argument falls a bit flat when you consider the modern tecnhology
is a Boris bus!

Not any more. The modern buses I'm thinking of are the smooth, quiet
electric double-deckers.

I wonder how long it'll be before Boris buses appear on the used market.
The early ones are now 12 years old - not sure what the service life of a
regular London bus is, but they must be getting towards that.
The original Routemasters lasted a long time because they were endlessly
refurbished, but that doesn't happen today. Given the many problems they
have, I'd expect operators would much rather replace them with new electric
buses - especially the Euro 5 examples.

There's only one operator: TfL. It owns the whole fleet, as the leasing
companies wouldn't fund a bus with so little re-sale potential.

Post by Theo
Maybe at some point TfL will cut their losses?

I suspect TfL will be keen to investigate converting them to battery
operation.

[Theo]

Post by Recliner

Post by Theo
I wonder how long it'll be before Boris buses appear on the used market.
The early ones are now 12 years old - not sure what the service life of a
regular London bus is, but they must be getting towards that.
The original Routemasters lasted a long time because they were endlessly
refurbished, but that doesn't happen today. Given the many problems
they have, I'd expect operators would much rather replace them with new
electric buses - especially the Euro 5 examples.

There's only one operator: TfL. It owns the whole fleet, as the leasing
companies wouldn't fund a bus with so little re-sale potential.

TfL don't operate them, they're leased out to contract bus operators
(Go-ahead, RATP, etc*) aren't they? I wonder at what point they refuse to
tender if TfL insist on using the New Routemaster?

* I haven't surveyed exactly which operators use them at present

Post by Recliner

Post by Theo
Maybe at some point TfL will cut their losses?

I suspect TfL will be keen to investigate converting them to battery
operation.

Conversions have worked so well on the railways...

More to the point, I doubt a 'restomod' New Routemaster is going to have as
good performance as a purpose built electric bus - as well as having to deal
with the problems like temperature control inside and the wasted rear
platform and staircase. If the price of a new electric bus is less than a
conversion, will TfL throw good money after bad?

(For comparison, restomod classic cars often get roughly half the range of a
comparable new electric car - which is fine for a Sunday roadster, less good
for a daily workhorse)

Theo

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Theo

Post by Recliner

Post by Theo
I wonder how long it'll be before Boris buses appear on the used market.
The early ones are now 12 years old - not sure what the service life of a
regular London bus is, but they must be getting towards that.
The original Routemasters lasted a long time because they were endlessly
refurbished, but that doesn't happen today. Given the many problems
they have, I'd expect operators would much rather replace them with new
electric buses - especially the Euro 5 examples.

There's only one operator: TfL. It owns the whole fleet, as the leasing
companies wouldn't fund a bus with so little re-sale potential.

TfL don't operate them, they're leased out to contract bus operators
(Go-ahead, RATP, etc*) aren't they? I wonder at what point they refuse to
tender if TfL insist on using the New Routemaster?
* I haven't surveyed exactly which operators use them at present

Post by Recliner

Post by Theo
Maybe at some point TfL will cut their losses?

I suspect TfL will be keen to investigate converting them to battery
operation.

Conversions have worked so well on the railways...

They are hybrid buses so already have most of the kit necessary for full
electric operation. Remove the diesel engine and fit a bigger battery.

Remove the rear staircase and doors and replace with extra seating and
you might have a serviceable vehicle.

[Theo]

Post by Graeme Wall
They are hybrid buses so already have most of the kit necessary for full
electric operation. Remove the diesel engine and fit a bigger battery.
Remove the rear staircase and doors and replace with extra seating and
you might have a serviceable vehicle.

Equipmake's conversion replaces the motor:
https://equipmake.co.uk/equipmake-showcases-sector-leading-repower-technology-with-fully-electric-new-routemaster-bus/

400kWh for 150 miles, that's 0.375 miles/kWh (about 10x worse than a Tesla)
or 1.6 kWh/km.

For comparison Cambridge's electric double deckers (Volvo BZL) are 1.2
kWh/km:
https://www.stagecoachbus.com/promos-and-offers/east/cambridges-electric-buses

and Alexander Dennis are quoting 0.67kWh/km for Enviro400EVs:
https://www.alexander-dennis.com/next-generation-alexander-dennis-enviro400ev-is-driving-value-through-efficiency-with-benchmark-0-67kwh-km-energy-consumption/

so even if you convert them, the efficiency is low.

Theo

[M***@dastardlyhq.com]

On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 10:31:50 +0000

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Theo

Post by Recliner

Post by Theo
I wonder how long it'll be before Boris buses appear on the used market.
The early ones are now 12 years old - not sure what the service life of a
regular London bus is, but they must be getting towards that.
The original Routemasters lasted a long time because they were endlessly
refurbished, but that doesn't happen today. Given the many problems
they have, I'd expect operators would much rather replace them with new
electric buses - especially the Euro 5 examples.

There's only one operator: TfL. It owns the whole fleet, as the leasing
companies wouldn't fund a bus with so little re-sale potential.

TfL don't operate them, they're leased out to contract bus operators
(Go-ahead, RATP, etc*) aren't they? I wonder at what point they refuse to
tender if TfL insist on using the New Routemaster?
* I haven't surveyed exactly which operators use them at present

Post by Recliner

Post by Theo
Maybe at some point TfL will cut their losses?

I suspect TfL will be keen to investigate converting them to battery
operation.

Conversions have worked so well on the railways...

They are hybrid buses so already have most of the kit necessary for full
electric operation. Remove the diesel engine and fit a bigger battery.

IIRC the engine is rather small. I doubt it would free up enough room for
the amount of batteries required.

Post by Graeme Wall
Remove the rear staircase and doors and replace with extra seating and
you might have a serviceable vehicle.

The rear staircase is the only thing that makes it a usable vehicle. If
you get rid of it it'll only have one entrance and exit which is no use for
a london bus, might work on services in a small country town however.

[M***@dastardlyhq.com]

On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 14:52:33 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 10:31:50 +0000

Post by Graeme Wall
Remove the rear staircase and doors and replace with extra seating and
you might have a serviceable vehicle.

The rear staircase is the only thing that makes it a usable vehicle. If
you get rid of it it'll only have one entrance and exit which is no use for
a london bus, might work on services in a small country town however.

Duh, idiot. They have 3 exits.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 10:31:50 +0000

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Theo

Post by Recliner

Post by Theo
I wonder how long it'll be before Boris buses appear on the used market.
The early ones are now 12 years old - not sure what the service life of a
regular London bus is, but they must be getting towards that.
The original Routemasters lasted a long time because they were endlessly
refurbished, but that doesn't happen today. Given the many problems
they have, I'd expect operators would much rather replace them with new
electric buses - especially the Euro 5 examples.

There's only one operator: TfL. It owns the whole fleet, as the leasing
companies wouldn't fund a bus with so little re-sale potential.

TfL don't operate them, they're leased out to contract bus operators
(Go-ahead, RATP, etc*) aren't they? I wonder at what point they refuse to
tender if TfL insist on using the New Routemaster?
* I haven't surveyed exactly which operators use them at present

Post by Recliner

Post by Theo
Maybe at some point TfL will cut their losses?

I suspect TfL will be keen to investigate converting them to battery
operation.

Conversions have worked so well on the railways...

They are hybrid buses so already have most of the kit necessary for full
electric operation. Remove the diesel engine and fit a bigger battery.

IIRC the engine is rather small. I doubt it would free up enough room for
the amount of batteries required.

Post by Graeme Wall
Remove the rear staircase and doors and replace with extra seating and
you might have a serviceable vehicle.

The rear staircase is the only thing that makes it a usable vehicle. If
you get rid of it it'll only have one entrance and exit which is no use for
a london bus, might work on services in a small country town however.

Still got the mid-exit, like most buses.

[M***@dastardlyhq.com]

On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 15:04:36 +0000

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
The rear staircase is the only thing that makes it a usable vehicle. If
you get rid of it it'll only have one entrance and exit which is no use for
a london bus, might work on services in a small country town however.

Still got the mid-exit, like most buses.

Yes, I forgot about it. Though the rear exit is what differentiates it from
other buses and is its only advantage. Take that away and its an overpriced
badly ventilated nothing special bus.

[Marland]

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 15:04:36 +0000

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
The rear staircase is the only thing that makes it a usable vehicle. If
you get rid of it it'll only have one entrance and exit which is no use for
a london bus, might work on services in a small country town however.

Still got the mid-exit, like most buses.

Yes, I forgot about it. Though the rear exit is what differentiates it from
other buses and is its only advantage. Take that away and its an overpriced
badly ventilated nothing special bus.

Take some of the roof off , install a coffee counter in the rear platform
space and use them as tour buses.

GH

[M***@dastardlyhq.com]

On 19 Mar 2024 16:05:17 GMT

Post by Marland

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Yes, I forgot about it. Though the rear exit is what differentiates it from
other buses and is its only advantage. Take that away and its an overpriced
badly ventilated nothing special bus.

Take some of the roof off , install a coffee counter in the rear platform
space and use them as tour buses.

I imagine the tour bus companies run on fairly thin margins. The last thing
they'll probably want is some overcomplicated unreliable hybrid bus that needs
specialist maintenance.

[Marland]

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 19 Mar 2024 16:05:17 GMT

Post by Marland

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Yes, I forgot about it. Though the rear exit is what differentiates it from
other buses and is its only advantage. Take that away and its an overpriced
badly ventilated nothing special bus.

Take some of the roof off , install a coffee counter in the rear platform
space and use them as tour buses.

I imagine the tour bus companies run on fairly thin margins. The last thing
they'll probably want is some overcomplicated unreliable hybrid bus that needs
specialist maintenance.

Perhaps I should have thought Party Bus, make it a cocktail bar at the back
and charge accordingly.


GH

[Graeme Wall]

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 19 Mar 2024 16:05:17 GMT

Post by Marland

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Yes, I forgot about it. Though the rear exit is what differentiates it from
other buses and is its only advantage. Take that away and its an overpriced
badly ventilated nothing special bus.

Take some of the roof off , install a coffee counter in the rear platform
space and use them as tour buses.

I imagine the tour bus companies run on fairly thin margins. The last thing
they'll probably want is some overcomplicated unreliable hybrid bus that needs
specialist maintenance.

Which is why a lot went for Routemasters, solid, reliable and uncomplicated.

[Recliner]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Theo

Post by Recliner

Post by Theo
I wonder how long it'll be before Boris buses appear on the used market.
The early ones are now 12 years old - not sure what the service life of a
regular London bus is, but they must be getting towards that.
The original Routemasters lasted a long time because they were endlessly
refurbished, but that doesn't happen today. Given the many problems
they have, I'd expect operators would much rather replace them with new
electric buses - especially the Euro 5 examples.

There's only one operator: TfL. It owns the whole fleet, as the leasing
companies wouldn't fund a bus with so little re-sale potential.

TfL don't operate them, they're leased out to contract bus operators
(Go-ahead, RATP, etc*) aren't they? I wonder at what point they refuse to
tender if TfL insist on using the New Routemaster?
* I haven't surveyed exactly which operators use them at present

Post by Recliner

Post by Theo
Maybe at some point TfL will cut their losses?

I suspect TfL will be keen to investigate converting them to battery
operation.

Conversions have worked so well on the railways...

They are hybrid buses so already have most of the kit necessary for full
electric operation. Remove the diesel engine and fit a bigger battery.
Remove the rear staircase and doors and replace with extra seating and
you might have a serviceable vehicle.

That makes the conversion much more expensive, so it might be getting
perilously close to the cost of an all-new, more efficient vehicle with a
much longer life.

[Marland]

Post by Recliner

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
I do not consider these routmaster just as a „tourist attraction”.

London has lots of history that tourists come to visit. But those
historical artefacts are not part of the modern infrastructure of the city.

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
Routmasters are the part of London tradition I would rather say. Many,
well, at least some Londoners love them too.

I like seeing them, but I'd much rather travel on a modern bus. Leave them
for the tourists, while the modern world uses modern technology.

That argument falls a bit flat when you consider the modern tecnhology
is a Boris bus!

Not any more. The modern buses I'm thinking of are the smooth, quiet
electric double-deckers.

I still slightly hold a childhood grudge that it was the Routemaster that
took over from the Trolleybuses with their fascinating overhead that plied
Chiswick High Road around to Shepherds Bush and Hammersmith Broadway which
I was frequently taken on.
Inside the Trolleys would now seem equally old fashioned and awkward but
the noise and vibration of a Diesel bus was obviously an inferior travel
experience however modern the Routemaster was touted as.
Modern buses are way ahead of those of 60-40 years ago and now that
electric propulsion has started to come back the ambience is getting better
as well. And battery buses that are now capable of running in service for a
day are allowing a lot more places to have that smoothness as they work
routes that would never be wired due to the capital expenditure.

GH

[[e-mail]]

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
I do not consider these routmaster just as a „tourist attraction”.

London has lots of history that tourists come to visit. But those
historical artefacts are not part of the modern infrastructure of the city.

I still think there is something between the modern infrastructure and a
tourist attraction.

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
Routmasters are the part of London tradition I would rather say. Many,
well, at least some Londoners love them too.

I like seeing them, but I'd much rather travel on a modern bus.

Why?

Post by Recliner
Leave them
for the tourists, while the modern world uses modern technology.

Ok. If you see someone driving a vintage car do you consider him a tourist?

[Recliner]

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
I do not consider these routmaster just as a „tourist attraction”.

London has lots of history that tourists come to visit. But those
historical artefacts are not part of the modern infrastructure of the city.

I still think there is something between the modern infrastructure and a
tourist attraction.

It's not a 1950s bus.

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
Routmasters are the part of London tradition I would rather say. Many,
well, at least some Londoners love them too.

I like seeing them, but I'd much rather travel on a modern bus.

Why?

Low floor, more space, front and mid doors, smoother, quieter.

But when I visit the EOR, then a ride on a vintage bus is part of the
vintage travel experience.

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world

Post by Recliner
Leave them
for the tourists, while the modern world uses modern technology.

Ok. If you see someone driving a vintage car do you consider him a tourist?

Of course not. Similarly, I don't think of the owners of vintage buses as
tourists.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world

Post by Recliner
Leave them
for the tourists, while the modern world uses modern technology.

Ok. If you see someone driving a vintage car do you consider him a tourist?

Of course not. Similarly, I don't think of the owners of vintage buses as
tourists.

How about the passengers of that vintage car? Are they tourists?

[Roland Perry]

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world

Post by Recliner
Leave them
for the tourists, while the modern world uses modern technology.

Ok. If you see someone driving a vintage car do you consider him a tourist?

Of course not. Similarly, I don't think of the owners of vintage buses as
tourists.

How about the passengers of that vintage car? Are they tourists?

Often yes, or "out for the ride" which amounts to the same thing.

[Marland]

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world

Post by Recliner
Leave them
for the tourists, while the modern world uses modern technology.

Ok. If you see someone driving a vintage car do you consider him a tourist?

Of course not. Similarly, I don't think of the owners of vintage buses as
tourists.

How about the passengers of that vintage car? Are they tourists?

The vast majority will be riding in it for the pleasure of doing so ,often
in company with drivers and passengers in other similar vehicles on a tour
around a scenic area or a meet at a tourist destination like the grounds of
a stately Home so yes they are, especially if the vehicle is a GT.

GH

[Blueshirt]

Post by Recliner

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
Routmasters are the part of London tradition I would rather
say. Many, well, at least some Londoners love them too.

I like seeing them, but I'd much rather travel on a modern
bus. Leave them for the tourists, while the modern world uses
modern technology.

The irony being, this is a post on Usenet! :-)

[Blueshirt]

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world

Post by Recliner
TfL regards them as a tourist attraction, like the open top
buses, not a means of transport.

I do not consider these routmaster just as a „tourist
attraction”. Routmasters are the part of London tradition I
would rather say. Many, well, at least some Londoners love
them too.

I went to a wedding in Sidcup that used a [hired] Routemaster to
drive the guests from the church to the reception... it was
great to hear that familiar throb of the Routemaster's diesel
engine. It wasn't the smoothest of rides, but we all loved to be
on a Routemaster again.

Buses had character back when they were the staple of LT's bus
fleet. Modern buses are like cereal boxes on wheels, but they
are quieter and generally a smoother ride. They're probably a
lot more fuel efficient too, so unfortunately there's no going
back.

[[e-mail]]

Post by ***@somewhere.in.the.world
http://youtu.be/wyAWEoCV3YY

I have just visited their website:
https://londonerbuses.co.uk

Unfortunately they withdrew the Route A this year.
The good news is they launched the Route T15 instead.
From Waterloo Stn through Trafalgar Sq and further on via Strand and Fleet
St to Tower Hill (as the late Heritage Route 15).