Discussion:
Elizabeth Line wins Stirling prize for architecture
(too old to reply)
Recliner
2024-10-16 21:47:16 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday, the Elizabeth Line collected the Stirling prize, usually
awarded to the country’s best new building, at a lavish ceremony at the
Roundhouse in Camden, prompting critics to ponder just how much of the
£18.8 billion project can be considered architecture and how much of it is
actually engineering. Given that it was also plagued by cost overruns of £4
billion and delivered three and a half years late, it may prove the most
controversial winner of the Stirling prize, conferred annually by the Royal
Institute of British Architects (Riba), for many years.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/6fbe4ec2-14f6-422c-890f-10aca044ae6d?shareToken=593fc0327b2b771348a5fc38907962fc

How fitting that a new railway receives the prize in a a nearby old railway
roundhouse in the same borough!
Marland
2024-10-16 22:12:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
On Wednesday, the Elizabeth Line collected the Stirling prize, usually
awarded to the country’s best new building, at a lavish ceremony at the
Roundhouse in Camden, prompting critics to ponder just how much of the
£18.8 billion project can be considered architecture and how much of it is
actually engineering. Given that it was also plagued by cost overruns of £4
billion and delivered three and a half years late, it may prove the most
controversial winner of the Stirling prize, conferred annually by the Royal
Institute of British Architects (Riba), for many years.
https://www.thetimes.com/article/6fbe4ec2-14f6-422c-890f-10aca044ae6d?shareToken=593fc0327b2b771348a5fc38907962fc
How fitting that a new railway receives the prize in a a nearby old railway
roundhouse in the same borough!
By coincidence I took my first trip on it today and decided to go between
Paddington and Abbey Wood. Very well used by the look of it. Travelled on
a few other routes that I had never done before or had not done for a long
time. Happened to have advanced purchase tickets to and from London
intending to visit an elderly relative but he was bit unwell so I did
something I haven’t done for nearly
ten years and just tour around London by train for a day. Oyster card
linked to senior railcard makes a relatively cheap day out.

GH
M***@DastartdlyHQ.org
2024-10-17 07:40:46 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Oct 2024 21:47:16 GMT
£18.8 billion project can be considered architecture and how much of it is
actually engineering. Given that it was also plagued by cost overruns of £4
A very blurry distinction given the former relies on the latter anyway.
Ken W
2024-10-17 12:14:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
On Wednesday, the Elizabeth Line collected the Stirling prize, usually
awarded to the country’s best new building, at a lavish ceremony at the
Roundhouse in Camden, prompting critics to ponder just how much of the
£18.8 billion project can be considered architecture and how much of it is
actually engineering. Given that it was also plagued by cost overruns of £4
billion and delivered three and a half years late, it may prove the most
controversial winner of the Stirling prize, conferred annually by the Royal
Institute of British Architects (Riba), for many years.
https://www.thetimes.com/article/6fbe4ec2-14f6-422c-890f-10aca044ae6d?shareToken=593fc0327b2b771348a5fc38907962fc
How fitting that a new railway receives the prize in a a nearby old railway
roundhouse in the same borough!
Before the "cost overruns of £4billion" prompts a wave of ill-informed
comment, IMO it's worth noting that a significant part of this was due to
unforeseen delays rather than errors in budgeting or construction cost
management. To mention a couple:

● Incompatibility of EL signalling systems with NR caused major holdups,
despite assurances to the contrary from both suppliers and outside experts
● Bond Street redevelopment was an engineers' and contractors' nightmare which
has been well chronicled here and elsewhere
● Some stretches of tunnelling were slowed by poor ground conditions which had
not been identified despite extensive surveys, boreholes etc.

Inicidentally, some of those involved in Crossrail cost management say that it
was one of the most stringent they had ever encountered.

Ken W
Peter Johnson
2024-10-17 13:21:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
On Wednesday, the Elizabeth Line collected the Stirling prize, usually
awarded to the country’s best new building, at a lavish ceremony at the
Roundhouse in Camden, prompting critics to ponder just how much of the
£18.8 billion project can be considered architecture and how much of it is
actually engineering. Given that it was also plagued by cost overruns of £4
billion and delivered three and a half years late, it may prove the most
controversial winner of the Stirling prize, conferred annually by the Royal
Institute of British Architects (Riba), for many years.
https://www.thetimes.com/article/6fbe4ec2-14f6-422c-890f-10aca044ae6d?shareToken=593fc0327b2b771348a5fc38907962fc
How fitting that a new railway receives the prize in a a nearby old railway
roundhouse in the same borough!
THe Guardian report nots that the award was for the underground works,
tunnels &c, and that the central core stations, each by a different
architect, would have benefitted by a unified design that made them
obvious Elizabeth Line, like the Leslie Gree buildings.
The Guardian's reporter was also quite rude about the stations outside
the central core, while not noticing that most of them were not built
for the EL.
M***@DastartdlyHQ.org
2024-10-17 15:09:19 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 14:21:18 +0100
Post by Peter Johnson
Post by Recliner
How fitting that a new railway receives the prize in a a nearby old railway
roundhouse in the same borough!
THe Guardian report nots that the award was for the underground works,
tunnels &c, and that the central core stations, each by a different
architect, would have benefitted by a unified design that made them
obvious Elizabeth Line, like the Leslie Gree buildings.
Perhaps it would have been too much for a single architects practice?
I imagine things are a lot more detailed and stringent now compared to
Greens day.
Marland
2024-10-17 16:01:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@DastartdlyHQ.org
On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 14:21:18 +0100
Post by Peter Johnson
Post by Recliner
How fitting that a new railway receives the prize in a a nearby old railway
roundhouse in the same borough!
THe Guardian report nots that the award was for the underground works,
tunnels &c, and that the central core stations, each by a different
architect, would have benefitted by a unified design that made them
obvious Elizabeth Line, like the Leslie Gree buildings.
Perhaps it would have been too much for a single architects practice?
I imagine things are a lot more detailed and stringent now compared to
Greens day.
Not having to allow for escalators would be one major difference, a
vertical shaft must be easier to fit inside a given area than an inclined
one.


GH
Bevan Price
2024-10-17 19:02:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by M***@DastartdlyHQ.org
On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 14:21:18 +0100
Post by Peter Johnson
Post by Recliner
How fitting that a new railway receives the prize in a a nearby old railway
roundhouse in the same borough!
THe Guardian report nots that the award was for the underground works,
tunnels &c, and that the central core stations, each by a different
architect, would have benefitted by a unified design that made them
obvious Elizabeth Line, like the Leslie Gree buildings.
Perhaps it would have been too much for a single architects practice?
I imagine things are a lot more detailed and stringent now compared to
Greens day.
Not having to allow for escalators would be one major difference, a
vertical shaft must be easier to fit inside a given area than an inclined
one.
GH
Maybe - but how to people get out of the stations when there is a power
cut and/or the lifts do not work ?
Recliner
2024-10-17 20:33:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bevan Price
Post by Marland
Post by M***@DastartdlyHQ.org
On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 14:21:18 +0100
Post by Peter Johnson
Post by Recliner
How fitting that a new railway receives the prize in a a nearby old railway
roundhouse in the same borough!
THe Guardian report nots that the award was for the underground works,
tunnels &c, and that the central core stations, each by a different
architect, would have benefitted by a unified design that made them
obvious Elizabeth Line, like the Leslie Gree buildings.
Perhaps it would have been too much for a single architects practice?
I imagine things are a lot more detailed and stringent now compared to
Greens day.
Not having to allow for escalators would be one major difference, a
vertical shaft must be easier to fit inside a given area than an inclined
one.
GH
Maybe - but how to people get out of the stations when there is a power
cut and/or the lifts do not work ?
The original Tube stations had spiral stairs for emergencies. There was
always more than one lift.
Ulf_Kutzner
2024-10-18 06:29:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Bevan Price
Post by Marland
Post by M***@DastartdlyHQ.org
On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 14:21:18 +0100
Post by Peter Johnson
Post by Recliner
How fitting that a new railway receives the prize in a a nearby old railway
roundhouse in the same borough!
THe Guardian report nots that the award was for the underground works,
tunnels &c, and that the central core stations, each by a different
architect, would have benefitted by a unified design that made them
obvious Elizabeth Line, like the Leslie Gree buildings.
Perhaps it would have been too much for a single architects practice?
I imagine things are a lot more detailed and stringent now compared to
Greens day.
Not having to allow for escalators would be one major difference, a
vertical shaft must be easier to fit inside a given area than an inclined
one.
GH
Maybe - but how to people get out of the stations when there is a power
cut and/or the lifts do not work ?
The original Tube stations had spiral stairs for emergencies. There was
always more than one lift.
Not sure for a branch line where I used
the spiral stairs without emergency.

Regards, ULF
Recliner
2024-10-18 09:03:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
Post by Recliner
Post by Bevan Price
Post by Marland
Post by M***@DastartdlyHQ.org
On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 14:21:18 +0100
Post by Peter Johnson
Post by Recliner
How fitting that a new railway receives the prize in a a nearby old railway
roundhouse in the same borough!
THe Guardian report nots that the award was for the underground works,
tunnels &c, and that the central core stations, each by a different
architect, would have benefitted by a unified design that made them
obvious Elizabeth Line, like the Leslie Gree buildings.
Perhaps it would have been too much for a single architects practice?
I imagine things are a lot more detailed and stringent now compared to
Greens day.
Not having to allow for escalators would be one major difference, a
vertical shaft must be easier to fit inside a given area than an inclined
one.
GH
Maybe - but how to people get out of the stations when there is a power
cut and/or the lifts do not work ?
The original Tube stations had spiral stairs for emergencies. There was
always more than one lift.
Not sure for a branch line where I used
the spiral stairs without emergency.
The spiral stairs are usually open and usable, but with warning messages if
there’s a lot of steps. The one station that I can think of where they
remain in routine use is Finsbury Park.
Ulf_Kutzner
2024-10-18 14:34:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
Post by Recliner
Post by Bevan Price
Post by Marland
Post by M***@DastartdlyHQ.org
On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 14:21:18 +0100
Post by Peter Johnson
Post by Recliner
How fitting that a new railway receives the prize in a a nearby old railway
roundhouse in the same borough!
THe Guardian report nots that the award was for the underground works,
tunnels &c, and that the central core stations, each by a different
architect, would have benefitted by a unified design that made them
obvious Elizabeth Line, like the Leslie Gree buildings.
Perhaps it would have been too much for a single architects practice?
I imagine things are a lot more detailed and stringent now compared to
Greens day.
Not having to allow for escalators would be one major difference, a
vertical shaft must be easier to fit inside a given area than an inclined
one.
GH
Maybe - but how to people get out of the stations when there is a power
cut and/or the lifts do not work ?
The original Tube stations had spiral stairs for emergencies. There was
always more than one lift.
Not sure for a branch line where I used
the spiral stairs without emergency.
The spiral stairs are usually open and usable, but with warning messages if
there’s a lot of steps. The one station that I can think of where they
remain in routine use is Finsbury Park.
Ah two lifts.

I knew it's closed now:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldwych_tube_station#/media/File:Aldwych_tube_station_plan.svg

Regards, ULF
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2024-10-18 15:03:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
Post by Recliner
Post by Bevan Price
Post by Marland
Post by M***@DastartdlyHQ.org
On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 14:21:18 +0100
Post by Peter Johnson
Post by Recliner
How fitting that a new railway receives the prize in a a nearby old railway
roundhouse in the same borough!
THe Guardian report nots that the award was for the underground works,
tunnels &c, and that the central core stations, each by a different
architect, would have benefitted by a unified design that made them
obvious Elizabeth Line, like the Leslie Gree buildings.
Perhaps it would have been too much for a single architects practice?
I imagine things are a lot more detailed and stringent now compared to
Greens day.
Not having to allow for escalators would be one major difference, a
vertical shaft must be easier to fit inside a given area than an inclined
one.
GH
Maybe - but how to people get out of the stations when there is a power
cut and/or the lifts do not work ?
The original Tube stations had spiral stairs for emergencies. There was
always more than one lift.
Not sure for a branch line where I used
the spiral stairs without emergency.
The spiral stairs are usually open and usable, but with warning messages if
there’s a lot of steps. The one station that I can think of where they
remain in routine use is Finsbury Park.
I followed the signs at Moorgate from Met to Northern City line and it took
me down spiral stairs; on the return journey I found a route which avoided
them…
Recliner
2024-10-18 15:39:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Recliner
Post by Ulf_Kutzner
Post by Recliner
Post by Bevan Price
Post by Marland
Post by M***@DastartdlyHQ.org
On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 14:21:18 +0100
Post by Peter Johnson
Post by Recliner
How fitting that a new railway receives the prize in a a nearby old railway
roundhouse in the same borough!
THe Guardian report nots that the award was for the underground works,
tunnels &c, and that the central core stations, each by a different
architect, would have benefitted by a unified design that made them
obvious Elizabeth Line, like the Leslie Gree buildings.
Perhaps it would have been too much for a single architects practice?
I imagine things are a lot more detailed and stringent now compared to
Greens day.
Not having to allow for escalators would be one major difference, a
vertical shaft must be easier to fit inside a given area than an inclined
one.
GH
Maybe - but how to people get out of the stations when there is a power
cut and/or the lifts do not work ?
The original Tube stations had spiral stairs for emergencies. There was
always more than one lift.
Not sure for a branch line where I used
the spiral stairs without emergency.
The spiral stairs are usually open and usable, but with warning messages if
there’s a lot of steps. The one station that I can think of where they
remain in routine use is Finsbury Park.
I followed the signs at Moorgate from Met to Northern City line and it took
me down spiral stairs; on the return journey I found a route which avoided
them…
Ah, yes, I’d forgotten about those.

Mark Goodge
2024-10-17 20:59:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by M***@DastartdlyHQ.org
On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 14:21:18 +0100
Post by Peter Johnson
Post by Recliner
How fitting that a new railway receives the prize in a a nearby old railway
roundhouse in the same borough!
THe Guardian report nots that the award was for the underground works,
tunnels &c, and that the central core stations, each by a different
architect, would have benefitted by a unified design that made them
obvious Elizabeth Line, like the Leslie Gree buildings.
Perhaps it would have been too much for a single architects practice?
I imagine things are a lot more detailed and stringent now compared to
Greens day.
Not having to allow for escalators would be one major difference, a
vertical shaft must be easier to fit inside a given area than an inclined
one.
Escalators have much greater capacity than lifts, though. The earliest tube
stations had lifts, but many of them were subsequently rebuilt with
escalators, and from 1912 all new deep tube stations had escalators.

But, on the other hand, lifts are more accessible to people with
disabilities than escalators. So a more recent move is to have both lifts
and escalators, the escalators for capacity and the lifts for accessibility.

Mark
Clank
2024-10-18 09:29:01 UTC
Permalink
As luck would have it I was in London the last couple of days, flying home
from Heathrow.

On arriving at TCR Elizabeth Line there were no trains to Heathrow
apparent on the screens, but there was a train terminating at Paddington
on the platform so I hopped on and figured I'd work it out there.

Once at Paddington, still no obvious signs of services to London's most
important airport, everything seemed to terminate at Paddington. On the
bright side, there was a chap on the platform with a tablet who was able
to confirm that I could wait half an hour for a Heathrow train to turn up
and then another half hour on the train, or I could go upstairs and be on
a Heathrow Express in 10 minutes.

I took the HEX option. But yes, the Elizabeth Line platforms are nice
enough. It's just unfortunate that every time I've actually tried to use
the Elizabeth for actual transport it has failed me somehow...
Post by Mark Goodge
Escalators have much greater capacity than lifts, though. The earliest
tube stations had lifts, but many of them were subsequently rebuilt with
escalators, and from 1912 all new deep tube stations had escalators.
But, on the other hand, lifts are more accessible to people with
disabilities than escalators. So a more recent move is to have both
lifts and escalators, the escalators for capacity and the lifts for
accessibility.
I do find it very odd that at Heathrow Central they really, really, really
want to discourage you from using the escalators. To the point of
supplementing the automated announcements of doom if you don't take a lift
with metal barriers and forced switchbacks to make it as inconvenient as
possible to use one.

There's not even anything particularly special about them; they're not
unusually long (unlike say the vertiginous examples in Munich airport,
which don't appear to have a particularly high mortality rate) or
especially narrow.
Recliner
2024-10-18 10:14:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clank
As luck would have it I was in London the last couple of days, flying home
from Heathrow.
On arriving at TCR Elizabeth Line there were no trains to Heathrow
apparent on the screens, but there was a train terminating at Paddington
on the platform so I hopped on and figured I'd work it out there.
Once at Paddington, still no obvious signs of services to London's most
important airport, everything seemed to terminate at Paddington. On the
bright side, there was a chap on the platform with a tablet who was able
to confirm that I could wait half an hour for a Heathrow train to turn up
and then another half hour on the train, or I could go upstairs and be on
a Heathrow Express in 10 minutes.
That’s strange. If it’s due to line problems, it usually affects both
services. I suppose the relief lines might have been temporarily blocked
by a slow-moving freight train?
Post by Clank
I took the HEX option. But yes, the Elizabeth Line platforms are nice
enough. It's just unfortunate that every time I've actually tried to use
the Elizabeth for actual transport it has failed me somehow...
Post by Mark Goodge
Escalators have much greater capacity than lifts, though. The earliest
tube stations had lifts, but many of them were subsequently rebuilt with
escalators, and from 1912 all new deep tube stations had escalators.
But, on the other hand, lifts are more accessible to people with
disabilities than escalators. So a more recent move is to have both
lifts and escalators, the escalators for capacity and the lifts for
accessibility.
I do find it very odd that at Heathrow Central they really, really, really
want to discourage you from using the escalators. To the point of
supplementing the automated announcements of doom if you don't take a lift
with metal barriers and forced switchbacks to make it as inconvenient as
possible to use one.
There's not even anything particularly special about them; they're not
unusually long (unlike say the vertiginous examples in Munich airport,
which don't appear to have a particularly high mortality rate) or
especially narrow.
There’s probably accidents involving suitcases on the multi-flight
escalators up the many floors from the basement station to the high
departures level. The lifts are much quicker, more convenient and safer.
Mark Goodge
2024-10-18 11:06:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clank
Post by Mark Goodge
Escalators have much greater capacity than lifts, though. The earliest
tube stations had lifts, but many of them were subsequently rebuilt with
escalators, and from 1912 all new deep tube stations had escalators.
But, on the other hand, lifts are more accessible to people with
disabilities than escalators. So a more recent move is to have both
lifts and escalators, the escalators for capacity and the lifts for
accessibility.
I do find it very odd that at Heathrow Central they really, really, really
want to discourage you from using the escalators. To the point of
supplementing the automated announcements of doom if you don't take a lift
with metal barriers and forced switchbacks to make it as inconvenient as
possible to use one.
I suppose it's possibly because of a history of unfortunate incidents
involving suitcases and other large items of baggage. If the lifts have
sufficient capacity then shepherding people towards them probably does help
things run more smoothly in general.
Post by Clank
There's not even anything particularly special about them; they're not
unusually long (unlike say the vertiginous examples in Munich airport,
which don't appear to have a particularly high mortality rate) or
especially narrow.
It's not necessarily fatalities or injuries, it could just be the disruption
caused by loose items of baggage on the escalators. Maybe Munich's
escalators are better able to cope with disruptive personal property. Or
maybe the topography makes it less practical to install lifts.

Mark
Marland
2024-10-18 13:36:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by Clank
I do find it very odd that at Heathrow Central they really, really, really
want to discourage you from using the escalators. To the point of
supplementing the automated announcements of doom if you don't take a lift
with metal barriers and forced switchbacks to make it as inconvenient as
possible to use one.
I suppose it's possibly because of a history of unfortunate incidents
involving suitcases and other large items of baggage. If the lifts have
sufficient capacity then shepherding people towards them probably does help
things run more smoothly in general.
Post by Clank
There's not even anything particularly special about them; they're not
unusually long (unlike say the vertiginous examples in Munich airport,
which don't appear to have a particularly high mortality rate) or
especially narrow.
It's not necessarily fatalities or injuries, it could just be the disruption
caused by loose items of baggage on the escalators. Maybe Munich's
escalators are better able to cope with disruptive personal property. Or
maybe the topography makes it less practical to install lifts.
Mark
I think it was at Paddington I saw a notice near the escalator that
requested passengers with wheeled luggage to use the lift instead.
TBH I didn’t really consider the possibility that such luggage was
disruptive to the escalator and more to the point that many towing a
trolley with a laptop and mobile office kit have a habit of dragging it
fight in front of peoples feet.

GH
Recliner
2024-10-17 21:08:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Johnson
Post by Recliner
On Wednesday, the Elizabeth Line collected the Stirling prize, usually
awarded to the country’s best new building, at a lavish ceremony at the
Roundhouse in Camden, prompting critics to ponder just how much of the
£18.8 billion project can be considered architecture and how much of it is
actually engineering. Given that it was also plagued by cost overruns of £4
billion and delivered three and a half years late, it may prove the most
controversial winner of the Stirling prize, conferred annually by the Royal
Institute of British Architects (Riba), for many years.
https://www.thetimes.com/article/6fbe4ec2-14f6-422c-890f-10aca044ae6d?shareToken=593fc0327b2b771348a5fc38907962fc
How fitting that a new railway receives the prize in a a nearby old railway
roundhouse in the same borough!
THe Guardian report nots that the award was for the underground works,
tunnels &c, and that the central core stations, each by a different
architect, would have benefitted by a unified design that made them
obvious Elizabeth Line, like the Leslie Gree buildings.
I don’t agree with that comment. The stations vary, in many cases just
being an entrance in a normal office block or even an integrated part of a
larger station (eg, Whitechapel, Stratford, Tottenham Court Road). Canary
Wharf’s Crossrail Place is rare, being a signature island building in its
own right. I don’t think a standard Leslie Green style approach would work
for such a variety of surface buildings.
Post by Peter Johnson
The Guardian's reporter was also quite rude about the stations outside
the central core, while not noticing that most of them were not built
for the EL.
Yes, not only were the original stations much older than the EL, but the
new buildings were built by NR.
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