Discussion:
Minimum UK overhead wire height
(too old to reply)
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-04 15:57:33 UTC
Permalink
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into the
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.

Given that EMUs seem to be around 6 inches lower than most locos in the UK
what on earth would happen if say a 12'9 class 66 or worse a 13ft high class
60 headed down there? I presume certain stock must be banned from the route
for this reason.
Scott
2023-12-04 17:01:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into the
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Given that EMUs seem to be around 6 inches lower than most locos in the UK
what on earth would happen if say a 12'9 class 66 or worse a 13ft high class
60 headed down there? I presume certain stock must be banned from the route
for this reason.
We have a line here (Glasgow to Paisley Canal) where I believe the
procedure is to turn off the power if a diesel locomotive is to
traverse the route.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-04 17:07:56 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 04 Dec 2023 17:01:50 +0000
Post by Scott
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into
the
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Given that EMUs seem to be around 6 inches lower than most locos in the UK
what on earth would happen if say a 12'9 class 66 or worse a 13ft high class
60 headed down there? I presume certain stock must be banned from the route
for this reason.
We have a line here (Glasgow to Paisley Canal) where I believe the
procedure is to turn off the power if a diesel locomotive is to
traverse the route.
Makes sense. Though I'm thinking at farringdon the wire could be scraping the
roof of the loco. Perhaps during maintenance they raise it somehow as well
as switching power off.
Recliner
2023-12-04 17:24:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 04 Dec 2023 17:01:50 +0000
Post by Scott
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into
the
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Given that EMUs seem to be around 6 inches lower than most locos in the UK
what on earth would happen if say a 12'9 class 66 or worse a 13ft high class
60 headed down there? I presume certain stock must be banned from the route
for this reason.
We have a line here (Glasgow to Paisley Canal) where I believe the
procedure is to turn off the power if a diesel locomotive is to
traverse the route.
Makes sense. Though I'm thinking at farringdon the wire could be scraping the
roof of the loco. Perhaps during maintenance they raise it somehow as well
as switching power off.
This photo indicates that it's a conductor bar, rather than a wire, and the
gap seems a little more than you thought (not my photo):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N08/30294141508/in/photostream/lightbox/
Recliner
2023-12-04 17:28:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 04 Dec 2023 17:01:50 +0000
Post by Scott
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into
the
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Given that EMUs seem to be around 6 inches lower than most locos in the UK
what on earth would happen if say a 12'9 class 66 or worse a 13ft high class
60 headed down there? I presume certain stock must be banned from the route
for this reason.
We have a line here (Glasgow to Paisley Canal) where I believe the
procedure is to turn off the power if a diesel locomotive is to
traverse the route.
Makes sense. Though I'm thinking at farringdon the wire could be scraping the
roof of the loco. Perhaps during maintenance they raise it somehow as well
as switching power off.
This photo indicates that it's a conductor bar, rather than a wire, and the
Or is that actually St Pancras?
Sam Wilson
2023-12-04 17:41:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 04 Dec 2023 17:01:50 +0000
Post by Scott
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into
the
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Given that EMUs seem to be around 6 inches lower than most locos in the UK
what on earth would happen if say a 12'9 class 66 or worse a 13ft high class
60 headed down there? I presume certain stock must be banned from the route
for this reason.
We have a line here (Glasgow to Paisley Canal) where I believe the
procedure is to turn off the power if a diesel locomotive is to
traverse the route.
Makes sense. Though I'm thinking at farringdon the wire could be scraping the
roof of the loco. Perhaps during maintenance they raise it somehow as well
as switching power off.
This photo indicates that it's a conductor bar, rather than a wire, and the
Or is that actually St Pancras?
I thought for a moment that I could see a TVM430 block marker (I’m sure
there’s another name which I can’t recall just now) so it must be StP.
Then I realised it wasn’t - the yellow is an arrow not a triangle - and
anyway e* trains don’t run through SPILL. So it could be anywhere as far
as I’m concerned!

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Andy Burns
2023-12-04 17:48:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Recliner
Or is that actually St Pancras?
I thought for a moment that I could see a TVM430 block marker (I’m sure
there’s another name which I can’t recall just now) so it must be StP.
Then I realised it wasn’t - the yellow is an arrow not a triangle - and
anyway e* trains don’t run through SPILL. So it could be anywhere as far
as I’m concerned!
The page that images appears to come from, says it is StP

<https://www.modernrailways.com/article/signalling-tomorrows-railway>

"ETCS L2 with ATO overlay: a Class 700 passes an ETCS marker board in
the six foot at St Pancras International low level"
Recliner
2023-12-04 21:55:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 04 Dec 2023 17:01:50 +0000
Post by Scott
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into
the
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Given that EMUs seem to be around 6 inches lower than most locos in the UK
what on earth would happen if say a 12'9 class 66 or worse a 13ft high class
60 headed down there? I presume certain stock must be banned from the route
for this reason.
We have a line here (Glasgow to Paisley Canal) where I believe the
procedure is to turn off the power if a diesel locomotive is to
traverse the route.
Makes sense. Though I'm thinking at farringdon the wire could be scraping the
roof of the loco. Perhaps during maintenance they raise it somehow as well
as switching power off.
This photo indicates that it's a conductor bar, rather than a wire, and the
Or is that actually St Pancras?
I thought for a moment that I could see a TVM430 block marker (I’m sure
there’s another name which I can’t recall just now) so it must be StP.
Yes, it's definitely SPILL — you can just see the last few letters of
'International' to the right of the train. I'd missed that before posting.
Post by Sam Wilson
Then I realised it wasn’t - the yellow is an arrow not a triangle - and
anyway e* trains don’t run through SPILL.
It's a block section marker for the in-cab automated signalling through the
TL core, so nothing to do with the HS1 route upstairs.
Bob
2023-12-05 07:57:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 04 Dec 2023 17:01:50 +0000
Post by Scott
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into
the
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Given that EMUs seem to be around 6 inches lower than most locos in the UK
what on earth would happen if say a 12'9 class 66 or worse a 13ft high class
60 headed down there? I presume certain stock must be banned from the route
for this reason.
We have a line here (Glasgow to Paisley Canal) where I believe the
procedure is to turn off the power if a diesel locomotive is to
traverse the route.
Makes sense. Though I'm thinking at farringdon the wire could be scraping the
roof of the loco. Perhaps during maintenance they raise it somehow as well
as switching power off.
This photo indicates that it's a conductor bar, rather than a wire, and the
That's SPILL. Farringdon has conventional OHLE while SPILL has bar
conductors. The sign on the far right has Underground, National Rail and
International Trains as its three labels, and the station name sign just
behind the cab ends "ational".

Looking at a few photos, my perception is the OHLE height in Farringdon
is higher than at the old King's Cross Thameslink, which was very low
indeed.

Robin
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-05 09:47:37 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 08:57:31 +0100
Post by Bob
Post by Recliner
This photo indicates that it's a conductor bar, rather than a wire, and the
/
That's SPILL. Farringdon has conventional OHLE while SPILL has bar
conductors. The sign on the far right has Underground, National Rail and
International Trains as its three labels, and the station name sign just
behind the cab ends "ational".
Looking at a few photos, my perception is the OHLE height in Farringdon
is higher than at the old King's Cross Thameslink, which was very low
indeed.
It seems to be low pretty much everywhere on that part of the line. I'm
impressed they managed to squeeze it in at all with sufficient clearance.
Marland
2023-12-05 14:54:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 08:57:31 +0100
Post by Bob
Post by Recliner
This photo indicates that it's a conductor bar, rather than a wire, and the
/
That's SPILL. Farringdon has conventional OHLE while SPILL has bar
conductors. The sign on the far right has Underground, National Rail and
International Trains as its three labels, and the station name sign just
behind the cab ends "ational".
Looking at a few photos, my perception is the OHLE height in Farringdon
is higher than at the old King's Cross Thameslink, which was very low
indeed.
It seems to be low pretty much everywhere on that part of the line. I'm
impressed they managed to squeeze it in at all with sufficient clearance.
Although the voltage would have been lower I have wondered at how the
subsurface lines would have looked if the Met had got its way and the Ganz
3 phase system with its two overhead wires had been installed. Junctions
would have looked quite complicated because of the need to have large
neutral sections where one phase crossed another, trolley buses have them
as well where + and - wires cross but they only need a few inches for a
trolley head whereas pantographs are a lot wider.
Maybe Trolley poles were planned for the Met scheme bit I don’t know if
planning to that level of detail was done before before the Met was forced
to adopt the DC system .

GH
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-05 15:51:02 UTC
Permalink
On 5 Dec 2023 14:54:45 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 08:57:31 +0100
Post by Bob
Post by Recliner
This photo indicates that it's a conductor bar, rather than a wire, and the
/
That's SPILL. Farringdon has conventional OHLE while SPILL has bar
conductors. The sign on the far right has Underground, National Rail and
International Trains as its three labels, and the station name sign just
behind the cab ends "ational".
Looking at a few photos, my perception is the OHLE height in Farringdon
is higher than at the old King's Cross Thameslink, which was very low
indeed.
It seems to be low pretty much everywhere on that part of the line. I'm
impressed they managed to squeeze it in at all with sufficient clearance.
Although the voltage would have been lower I have wondered at how the
subsurface lines would have looked if the Met had got its way and the Ganz
3 phase system with its two overhead wires had been installed. Junctions
Good thing they didn't. For a metro system in tunnel without any level
crossings and relatively low speeds 3rd/4th rail is probably a better choice
than overhead.
Post by Marland
would have looked quite complicated because of the need to have large
neutral sections where one phase crossed another, trolley buses have them
as well where + and - wires cross but they only need a few inches for a
trolley head whereas pantographs are a lot wider.
Problem with trolley wires is they need their own little points to guide the
pole onto the correct wire which I imagine makes route setting as complex as
any tram system. Perhaps today with smarter AI systems the bus could move the
pole appropriately itself.
Recliner
2023-12-05 16:24:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 5 Dec 2023 14:54:45 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 08:57:31 +0100
Post by Bob
Post by Recliner
This photo indicates that it's a conductor bar, rather than a wire, and the
/
That's SPILL. Farringdon has conventional OHLE while SPILL has bar
conductors. The sign on the far right has Underground, National Rail and
International Trains as its three labels, and the station name sign just
behind the cab ends "ational".
Looking at a few photos, my perception is the OHLE height in Farringdon
is higher than at the old King's Cross Thameslink, which was very low
indeed.
It seems to be low pretty much everywhere on that part of the line. I'm
impressed they managed to squeeze it in at all with sufficient clearance.
Although the voltage would have been lower I have wondered at how the
subsurface lines would have looked if the Met had got its way and the Ganz
3 phase system with its two overhead wires had been installed. Junctions
Good thing they didn't. For a metro system in tunnel without any level
crossings and relatively low speeds 3rd/4th rail is probably a better choice
than overhead.
The 3-phase system would have been really hard to squeeze into a tunnel,
though, of course, the Jungfraubahn does exactly that:

<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/7683489358/in/album-72157630773147320/lightbox/>
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-05 16:42:54 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 16:24:36 GMT
Post by Recliner
The 3-phase system would have been really hard to squeeze into a tunnel,
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/7683489358/in/album-72157630773147320/l
ightbox/>
I wonder what the reasoning was that this was a better solution than a single
wire with DC or single phase AC.
Bob
2023-12-05 16:53:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 16:24:36 GMT
Post by Recliner
The 3-phase system would have been really hard to squeeze into a tunnel,
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/7683489358/in/album-72157630773147320/l
ightbox/>
I wonder what the reasoning was that this was a better solution than a single
wire with DC or single phase AC.
At the time of construction of the Jungraubahn (and other 3 phase
systems like that proposed for the Met), single phase AC was difficult
to work with in a railway environment due to the lack of rail compatible
rectifiers at that time. DC has its own limitations that were, and
remain, quite restrictive.

Robin
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-05 17:03:29 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 17:53:55 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 16:24:36 GMT
Post by Recliner
The 3-phase system would have been really hard to squeeze into a tunnel,
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/7683489358/in/album-72157630773147320/l
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
ightbox/>
I wonder what the reasoning was that this was a better solution than a single
wire with DC or single phase AC.
At the time of construction of the Jungraubahn (and other 3 phase
systems like that proposed for the Met), single phase AC was difficult
to work with in a railway environment due to the lack of rail compatible
rectifiers at that time. DC has its own limitations that were, and
remain, quite restrictive.
Could they not just tap a single phase?
nib
2023-12-05 17:48:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
The 3-phase system would have been really hard to squeeze into a tunnel,
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/7683489358/in/
album-72157630773147320/l
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
ightbox/>
I wonder what the reasoning was that this was a better solution than a single
wire with DC or single phase AC.
At the time of construction of the Jungraubahn (and other 3 phase
systems like that proposed for the Met), single phase AC was difficult
to work with in a railway environment due to the lack of rail compatible
rectifiers at that time. DC has its own limitations that were, and
remain, quite restrictive.
Could they not just tap a single phase?
I suspect that single-phase AC motors were not up to the job - possibly
still aren't!

Single-phase is rectified to DC and either used as per DC traction or
inverted back up to variable-frequency-variable-current to drive 3-phase
traction motors.

nib
Bob
2023-12-05 17:53:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 17:53:55 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 16:24:36 GMT
Post by Recliner
The 3-phase system would have been really hard to squeeze into a tunnel,
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/7683489358/in/album-72157630773147320/l
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
ightbox/>
I wonder what the reasoning was that this was a better solution than a single
wire with DC or single phase AC.
At the time of construction of the Jungraubahn (and other 3 phase
systems like that proposed for the Met), single phase AC was difficult
to work with in a railway environment due to the lack of rail compatible
rectifiers at that time. DC has its own limitations that were, and
remain, quite restrictive.
Could they not just tap a single phase?
The problem wasn't getting a single phase supply, the problem was
driving a train with a single phase supply. Single phase AC is
challenging to do useful things with when it comes to motors.

Robin
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-06 09:30:33 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 18:53:11 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 17:53:55 +0100
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 16:24:36 GMT
Post by Recliner
The 3-phase system would have been really hard to squeeze into a tunnel,
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/7683489358/in/album-72157630773147320/l
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
ightbox/>
I wonder what the reasoning was that this was a better solution than a
single
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
wire with DC or single phase AC.
At the time of construction of the Jungraubahn (and other 3 phase
systems like that proposed for the Met), single phase AC was difficult
to work with in a railway environment due to the lack of rail compatible
rectifiers at that time. DC has its own limitations that were, and
remain, quite restrictive.
Could they not just tap a single phase?
The problem wasn't getting a single phase supply, the problem was
driving a train with a single phase supply. Single phase AC is
challenging to do useful things with when it comes to motors.
Millions of vacuum cleaners and lawn mowers might disagree!
Bob
2023-12-06 11:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 18:53:11 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 17:53:55 +0100
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 16:24:36 GMT
Post by Recliner
The 3-phase system would have been really hard to squeeze into a tunnel,
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/7683489358/in/album-72157630773147320/l
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
ightbox/>
I wonder what the reasoning was that this was a better solution than a
single
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
wire with DC or single phase AC.
At the time of construction of the Jungraubahn (and other 3 phase
systems like that proposed for the Met), single phase AC was difficult
to work with in a railway environment due to the lack of rail compatible
rectifiers at that time. DC has its own limitations that were, and
remain, quite restrictive.
Could they not just tap a single phase?
The problem wasn't getting a single phase supply, the problem was
driving a train with a single phase supply. Single phase AC is
challenging to do useful things with when it comes to motors.
Millions of vacuum cleaners and lawn mowers might disagree!
Low power, low starting torque demands, fixed speed. Those limitations
are not a problem for those applications, but are a huge problem for
railway applicatoins.

Robin
Marland
2023-12-06 13:31:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 18:53:11 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 17:53:55 +0100
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 16:24:36 GMT
Post by Recliner
The 3-phase system would have been really hard to squeeze into a tunnel,
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/7683489358/in/album-72157630773147320/l
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
ightbox/>
I wonder what the reasoning was that this was a better solution than a
single
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
wire with DC or single phase AC.
At the time of construction of the Jungraubahn (and other 3 phase
systems like that proposed for the Met), single phase AC was difficult
to work with in a railway environment due to the lack of rail compatible
rectifiers at that time. DC has its own limitations that were, and
remain, quite restrictive.
Could they not just tap a single phase?
The problem wasn't getting a single phase supply, the problem was
driving a train with a single phase supply. Single phase AC is
challenging to do useful things with when it comes to motors.
Millions of vacuum cleaners and lawn mowers might disagree!
Until recent decades most of those ran at a fixed speed with no need to run
backwards,
not a mode that would suit a locomotive or other traction unit.
I’m old enough to remember that most vacuum cleaners like my gran had
also had to work on DC mains supplies so were equipped with what were
called universal motors which are basically a DC series motor with a few
more bits around the windings , they depend on the commutator and brushes
to work well but the sparking means the latter wear quickly.
Domestic equipment really has an easy life compared to industrial kit often
only running for an hour or less a day so such a vacuum cleaner could last
years before a set of brushes needed changing but
in industrial use servicing motors and cleaning commutators was a regular
service task.
There was hardly a town without a small workshop doing such work and
rewinds, like TV and Radio repair shops progress ( and associated labour
costs ) has seen them become rare.

GH
Bob
2023-12-06 15:07:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 18:53:11 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 17:53:55 +0100
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 16:24:36 GMT
Post by Recliner
The 3-phase system would have been really hard to squeeze into a tunnel,
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/7683489358/in/album-72157630773147320/l
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
ightbox/>
I wonder what the reasoning was that this was a better solution than a
single
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
wire with DC or single phase AC.
At the time of construction of the Jungraubahn (and other 3 phase
systems like that proposed for the Met), single phase AC was difficult
to work with in a railway environment due to the lack of rail compatible
rectifiers at that time. DC has its own limitations that were, and
remain, quite restrictive.
Could they not just tap a single phase?
The problem wasn't getting a single phase supply, the problem was
driving a train with a single phase supply. Single phase AC is
challenging to do useful things with when it comes to motors.
Millions of vacuum cleaners and lawn mowers might disagree!
Until recent decades most of those ran at a fixed speed with no need to run
backwards,
not a mode that would suit a locomotive or other traction unit.
I’m old enough to remember that most vacuum cleaners like my gran had
also had to work on DC mains supplies so were equipped with what were
called universal motors which are basically a DC series motor with a few
more bits around the windings , they depend on the commutator and brushes
to work well but the sparking means the latter wear quickly.
Domestic equipment really has an easy life compared to industrial kit often
only running for an hour or less a day so such a vacuum cleaner could last
years before a set of brushes needed changing but
in industrial use servicing motors and cleaning commutators was a regular
service task.
There was hardly a town without a small workshop doing such work and
rewinds, like TV and Radio repair shops progress ( and associated labour
costs ) has seen them become rare.
Universal motors is how early single phase AC railways operated. The
problem is at the high power levels involved, the sparking at the
commutator becomes a huge problem. The sparking intensity is related to the
AC frequency being used due to inductance effects. The solution therefore
is low frequency AC. Hence the CH/De/At etc 16.7 Hz system. On board
rectifiers solved that problem and when they became viable in the late
1950s for on board usage on locomotives, 25 kV 50 Hz single phase become
possible.

Robin
Marland
2023-12-05 19:16:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 17:53:55 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 16:24:36 GMT
Post by Recliner
The 3-phase system would have been really hard to squeeze into a tunnel,
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/7683489358/in/album-72157630773147320/l
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
ightbox/>
I wonder what the reasoning was that this was a better solution than a single
wire with DC or single phase AC.
At the time of construction of the Jungraubahn (and other 3 phase
systems like that proposed for the Met), single phase AC was difficult
to work with in a railway environment due to the lack of rail compatible
rectifiers at that time. DC has its own limitations that were, and
remain, quite restrictive.
Could they not just tap a single phase?
You need to do something with the other two, not easy in the early 20th
Century before grid systems became established. Its not that easy now to
provide for a heavy user of a single phase such as a railway without
causing balance problems in the supply hence substations for normal AC
electrification cannot just be placed and connected up at any point which
might look convenient.

GH
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-06 09:41:34 UTC
Permalink
On 5 Dec 2023 19:16:43 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Could they not just tap a single phase?
You need to do something with the other two, not easy in the early 20th
Century before grid systems became established. Its not that easy now to
provide for a heavy user of a single phase such as a railway without
causing balance problems in the supply hence substations for normal AC
electrification cannot just be placed and connected up at any point which
might look convenient.
Fair enough. But why then did most railway companies in the UK simply
rectify to DC and put that through a wire or conductor rail back in the 19th
century if it was such an issue? Seems to be this german (austrian?) railway
made a rod for its own back using 3 phase.
Tweed
2023-12-06 10:11:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 5 Dec 2023 19:16:43 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Could they not just tap a single phase?
You need to do something with the other two, not easy in the early 20th
Century before grid systems became established. Its not that easy now to
provide for a heavy user of a single phase such as a railway without
causing balance problems in the supply hence substations for normal AC
electrification cannot just be placed and connected up at any point which
might look convenient.
Fair enough. But why then did most railway companies in the UK simply
rectify to DC and put that through a wire or conductor rail back in the 19th
century if it was such an issue? Seems to be this german (austrian?) railway
made a rod for its own back using 3 phase.
There were few significant railways using 3 phase. It made the motors
easier, and the load on the distribution network easier, but the OHLE was
very much more complicated.

Early systems tended to use DC, with the then hard bit, the rectification,
done lineside, or low frequency AC. Much of the German (and others) system
still runs at 16 2/3 Hz, with all the complications of providing a separate
traction supply network.

This posting from Quora is useful:

It’s a “historical accident”. That is, it was a good idea when it was
chosen but no longer. And there’s now too much existing investment in the
oddball low frequency AC systems to rip them all out and start over.

Variable speed motors are required for any form of electric traction, and
in the early days there was only the brush-type motor. Tesla’s AC induction
motor, though simpler and more rugged, could only run efficiently at a
fixed speed (or one of a small set of fixed speeds) determined by the AC
supply frequency.

Brush-type motors have separate field and armature windings. Although they
run best on DC, they can also run on AC. (They’re sometimes called univeral
motors for this reason.) The direction of rotation is determined by the
relative polarity of the voltage fed to the field and armature windings so
the motor will continue to turn in the same direction when the AC polarity
changes. To reverse the motor, you reverse the polarity of the field but
not the armature, or vice versa.

But there’s a complication. Motor windings (especially on the stator of a
parallel-wound motor) are essentially big inductors. Their impedance to the
flow of AC current increases with frequency. Small brush-type motors (e.g.,
in power saws or vacuum cleaners) can handle 50 or 60 Hz but not the large
motors in an electric locomotive. And that’s how we got unusually low
frequencies like 16 2/3 Hz in Scandinavia and the German-speaking parts of
Europe and 25 Hz in the southern half of the Amtrak Northeast Corridor in
the USA.

The early need for low AC frequencies didn’t last long. With the mercury
vapor rectifier and later the solid-state rectifier, a locomotive could
convert any AC frequency to DC for its motors. Today, with high power
transistor switches, locomotives can finally use AC induction motors
powered with variable frequency AC drives from DC and AC supplies of any
frequency, so new lines generally use either DC or the local grid frequency
(50 or 60 Hz).
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-06 10:34:28 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 10:11:12 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Tweed
Early systems tended to use DC, with the then hard bit, the rectification,
done lineside, or low frequency AC. Much of the German (and others) system
still runs at 16 2/3 Hz, with all the complications of providing a separate
traction supply network.
Surely they could do as the french and belgies are doing converting their DC
OHLE to 25KV AC and buy dual voltage/freq trains and the gradually switch the
old 16Hz lines over once older stock has been scrapped?
Tweed
2023-12-06 10:53:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 10:11:12 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Tweed
Early systems tended to use DC, with the then hard bit, the rectification,
done lineside, or low frequency AC. Much of the German (and others) system
still runs at 16 2/3 Hz, with all the complications of providing a separate
traction supply network.
Surely they could do as the french and belgies are doing converting their DC
OHLE to 25KV AC and buy dual voltage/freq trains and the gradually switch the
old 16Hz lines over once older stock has been scrapped?
It’s the same arguments about converting 3rd rail DC to overhead here -
cost. In the world of modern electronics it’s probably easier to use
converter stations from the public 50 Hz supply. Perhaps one day every item
of electric traction will be 50 Hz 25kV capable, but I imagine that’s a
long way in the future. Lots of NL is still running on 1500V DC overhead.

We are now starting to use fancy electronic substations between the public
supply and the railway feed, primarily to take a balanced load off all
three phases despite feeding an unbalanced single phase load.
Bob
2023-12-06 11:50:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 10:11:12 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Tweed
Early systems tended to use DC, with the then hard bit, the rectification,
done lineside, or low frequency AC. Much of the German (and others) system
still runs at 16 2/3 Hz, with all the complications of providing a separate
traction supply network.
Surely they could do as the french and belgies are doing converting their DC
OHLE to 25KV AC and buy dual voltage/freq trains and the gradually switch the
old 16Hz lines over once older stock has been scrapped?
There isn't much active conversion going on, it's more a case that lines
being newly electrified are beind done to the 25 kV standard (at least
in the case of France). DC electrification is very expensive in terms of
infrastructure needed on and around the track, making DC electrification
schemes significantly more expensive to construct. The costs associated
with the 16.7 Hz system are largely already sunk: providing the
generation/conversion and transmission backbone to support the railways.
As a high voltage AC electrification system, the 15 kV system, on
direct-to-the-railway basis is much closer in cost to the 25 kV 50 Hz
system, and does not have the kinds of power limitations that make DC
systems unsuited to higher speed running or heavy freight haulage (300
km/h passenger lines and very heavy freight haulage under the 15 kV
system have been routine for many years). In essence, there is not a
significant cost saving to operate a 25 kV 50 Hz rather than 15 kV 16.7
Hz system, and a very significant cost involved in conversion.

Robin
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-06 16:19:04 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 12:50:08 +0100
Post by Bob
As a high voltage AC electrification system, the 15 kV system, on
direct-to-the-railway basis is much closer in cost to the 25 kV 50 Hz
system, and does not have the kinds of power limitations that make DC
systems unsuited to higher speed running or heavy freight haulage (300
Actually DC is actually better for high voltage for transfering power as
there are lower losses. National Grid has built some DC interconnects to
other countries for example. These days if building a railway from scratch
you could probably do worse than 25KV *DC* given converting it down to lower
DC voltages is now a solved problem with modern electronics. Of course you
wouldn't get the nice hum for the catenary in the rain :)
Tweed
2023-12-06 16:34:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 12:50:08 +0100
Post by Bob
As a high voltage AC electrification system, the 15 kV system, on
direct-to-the-railway basis is much closer in cost to the 25 kV 50 Hz
system, and does not have the kinds of power limitations that make DC
systems unsuited to higher speed running or heavy freight haulage (300
Actually DC is actually better for high voltage for transfering power as
there are lower losses. National Grid has built some DC interconnects to
other countries for example. These days if building a railway from scratch
you could probably do worse than 25KV *DC* given converting it down to lower
DC voltages is now a solved problem with modern electronics. Of course you
wouldn't get the nice hum for the catenary in the rain :)
Swings and roundabouts for “better”. See here

https://www.cencepower.com/blog-posts/hvdc-transmission-systems#:~:text=Therefore%2C%20DC%20power%20is%20inherently,underwater%20it%27s%20about%2024%20%2D%2050km.

One of the main reasons for our undersea cables being DC is it removes the
need to synchronise our grid frequency to continental Europe.
ColinR
2023-12-07 10:47:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 12:50:08 +0100
Post by Bob
As a high voltage AC electrification system, the 15 kV system, on
direct-to-the-railway basis is much closer in cost to the 25 kV 50 Hz
system, and does not have the kinds of power limitations that make DC
systems unsuited to higher speed running or heavy freight haulage (300
Actually DC is actually better for high voltage for transfering power as
there are lower losses. National Grid has built some DC interconnects to
other countries for example. These days if building a railway from scratch
you could probably do worse than 25KV *DC* given converting it down to lower
DC voltages is now a solved problem with modern electronics. Of course you
wouldn't get the nice hum for the catenary in the rain :)
Swings and roundabouts for “better”. See here
https://www.cencepower.com/blog-posts/hvdc-transmission-systems#:~:text=Therefore%2C%20DC%20power%20is%20inherently,underwater%20it%27s%20about%2024%20%2D%2050km.
One of the main reasons for our undersea cables being DC is it removes the
need to synchronise our grid frequency to continental Europe.
One reason yes, but "main" I am not so sure about. We have a major
windfarm being built (will be fully operational next year) and the link
from Shetland to the mainland in Caithness is DC with the associated
converter stations at each end (Kergord in Shetland).
--
Colin
ColinR
2023-12-07 10:55:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by ColinR
Post by Tweed
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 12:50:08 +0100
Post by Bob
As a high voltage AC electrification system, the 15 kV system, on
direct-to-the-railway basis is much closer in cost to the 25 kV 50 Hz
system, and does not have the kinds of power limitations that make DC
systems unsuited to higher speed running or heavy freight haulage (300
Actually DC is actually better for high voltage for transfering power as
there are lower losses. National Grid has built some DC interconnects to
other countries for example. These days if building a railway from scratch
you could probably do worse than 25KV *DC* given converting it down to lower
DC voltages is now a solved problem with modern electronics. Of course you
wouldn't get the nice hum for the catenary in the rain :)
Swings and roundabouts for “better”. See here
https://www.cencepower.com/blog-posts/hvdc-transmission-systems#:~:text=Therefore%2C%20DC%20power%20is%20inherently,underwater%20it%27s%20about%2024%20%2D%2050km.
One of the main reasons for our undersea cables being DC is it removes the
need to synchronise our grid frequency to continental Europe.
One reason yes, but "main" I am not so sure about. We have a major
windfarm being built (will be fully operational next year) and the link
from Shetland to the mainland in Caithness is DC with the associated
converter stations at each end (Kergord in Shetland).
https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2020/06/advantages-of-hvdc-over-hvac-power-transmission.html
--
Colin
Tweed
2023-12-07 11:18:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by ColinR
Post by ColinR
Post by Tweed
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 12:50:08 +0100
Post by Bob
As a high voltage AC electrification system, the 15 kV system, on
direct-to-the-railway basis is much closer in cost to the 25 kV 50 Hz
system, and does not have the kinds of power limitations that make DC
systems unsuited to higher speed running or heavy freight haulage (300
Actually DC is actually better for high voltage for transfering power as
there are lower losses. National Grid has built some DC interconnects to
other countries for example. These days if building a railway from scratch
you could probably do worse than 25KV *DC* given converting it down to lower
DC voltages is now a solved problem with modern electronics. Of course you
wouldn't get the nice hum for the catenary in the rain :)
Swings and roundabouts for “better”. See here
https://www.cencepower.com/blog-posts/hvdc-transmission-systems#:~:text=Therefore%2C%20DC%20power%20is%20inherently,underwater%20it%27s%20about%2024%20%2D%2050km.
One of the main reasons for our undersea cables being DC is it removes the
need to synchronise our grid frequency to continental Europe.
One reason yes, but "main" I am not so sure about. We have a major
windfarm being built (will be fully operational next year) and the link
from Shetland to the mainland in Caithness is DC with the associated
converter stations at each end (Kergord in Shetland).
https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2020/06/advantages-of-hvdc-over-hvac-power-transmission.html
Yes there are other reasons - capacitive losses in seawater, no skin effect
and no need to run three phase conductors. However the UK - Continent links
could never have been considered if grid synchronisation was a requirement,
even over the short channel route. The Shetland link is probably benefiting
from electronic DC converter stations being now a tried and trusted
technology.

There’s serious talk of a 1000km Iceland - UK interconnector. Even with DC
I’m surprised there’s anything left after such a long run, but clearly
someone thinks there is.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-07 11:19:39 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 10:55:53 +0000
Post by ColinR
Post by ColinR
One reason yes, but "main" I am not so sure about. We have a major
windfarm being built (will be fully operational next year) and the link
from Shetland to the mainland in Caithness is DC with the associated
converter stations at each end (Kergord in Shetland).
https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2020/06/advantages-of-hvdc-over-hvac-power
-transmission.html
"in case of HVDC that can utilize the earth as the return path"

Huh? How on earth can you use the ground as a return path for DC? There'd be
so much resistance you'd get no power whatsover.
Tweed
2023-12-07 11:40:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 10:55:53 +0000
Post by ColinR
Post by ColinR
One reason yes, but "main" I am not so sure about. We have a major
windfarm being built (will be fully operational next year) and the link
from Shetland to the mainland in Caithness is DC with the associated
converter stations at each end (Kergord in Shetland).
https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2020/06/advantages-of-hvdc-over-hvac-power
-transmission.html
"in case of HVDC that can utilize the earth as the return path"
Huh? How on earth can you use the ground as a return path for DC? There'd be
so much resistance you'd get no power whatsover.
It’s a known and implemented method

https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/16/14/5349
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-07 15:50:02 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 11:40:55 -0000 (UTC)
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 10:55:53 +0000
Post by ColinR
Post by ColinR
One reason yes, but "main" I am not so sure about. We have a major
windfarm being built (will be fully operational next year) and the link
from Shetland to the mainland in Caithness is DC with the associated
converter stations at each end (Kergord in Shetland).
https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2020/06/advantages-of-hvdc-over-hvac-power
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by ColinR
-transmission.html
"in case of HVDC that can utilize the earth as the return path"
Huh? How on earth can you use the ground as a return path for DC? There'd be
so much resistance you'd get no power whatsover.
It’s a known and implemented method
https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/16/14/5349
Well I guess if they want to waste huge amounts of power heating up the
ground or the water. Ohms law doesn't change just because you're using very
high voltages.
Certes
2023-12-07 16:43:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 11:40:55 -0000 (UTC)
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 10:55:53 +0000
Post by ColinR
Post by ColinR
One reason yes, but "main" I am not so sure about. We have a major
windfarm being built (will be fully operational next year) and the link
from Shetland to the mainland in Caithness is DC with the associated
converter stations at each end (Kergord in Shetland).
https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2020/06/advantages-of-hvdc-over-hvac-power
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by ColinR
-transmission.html
"in case of HVDC that can utilize the earth as the return path"
Huh? How on earth can you use the ground as a return path for DC? There'd be
so much resistance you'd get no power whatsover.
It’s a known and implemented method
https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/16/14/5349
Well I guess if they want to waste huge amounts of power heating up the
ground or the water. Ohms law doesn't change just because you're using very
high voltages.
It may not change, but it does take into account the fact that you have
a very wide conductor. Plus you get free fried fish.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-07 17:03:39 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 16:43:55 +0000
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 11:40:55 -0000 (UTC)
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 10:55:53 +0000
Post by ColinR
Post by ColinR
One reason yes, but "main" I am not so sure about. We have a major
windfarm being built (will be fully operational next year) and the link
from Shetland to the mainland in Caithness is DC with the associated
converter stations at each end (Kergord in Shetland).
https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2020/06/advantages-of-hvdc-over-hvac-power
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by ColinR
-transmission.html
"in case of HVDC that can utilize the earth as the return path"
Huh? How on earth can you use the ground as a return path for DC? There'd
be
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
so much resistance you'd get no power whatsover.
It’s a known and implemented method
https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/16/14/5349
Well I guess if they want to waste huge amounts of power heating up the
ground or the water. Ohms law doesn't change just because you're using very
high voltages.
It may not change, but it does take into account the fact that you have
a very wide conductor. Plus you get free fried fish.
Beyond a certain point (probably inches) I suspect conductor width has little
influence on the resistence but feel free to test it with a single wire, a
torch bulb and battery using the ground as the return.
Graeme Wall
2023-12-07 17:59:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 16:43:55 +0000
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 11:40:55 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Tweed
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 10:55:53 +0000
Post by ColinR
Post by ColinR
One reason yes, but "main" I am not so sure about. We have a major
windfarm being built (will be fully operational next year) and the link
from Shetland to the mainland in Caithness is DC with the associated
converter stations at each end (Kergord in Shetland).
https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2020/06/advantages-of-hvdc-over-hvac-power
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Tweed
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by ColinR
-transmission.html
"in case of HVDC that can utilize the earth as the return path"
Huh? How on earth can you use the ground as a return path for DC? There'd
be
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Tweed
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
so much resistance you'd get no power whatsover.
It’s a known and implemented method
https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/16/14/5349
Well I guess if they want to waste huge amounts of power heating up the
ground or the water. Ohms law doesn't change just because you're using very
high voltages.
It may not change, but it does take into account the fact that you have
a very wide conductor. Plus you get free fried fish.
Beyond a certain point (probably inches) I suspect conductor width has little
influence on the resistence but feel free to test it with a single wire, a
torch bulb and battery using the ground as the return.
Torch bulb? Where do you find one of those?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-08 10:12:44 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 17:59:33 +0000
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 16:43:55 +0000
Post by Certes
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 11:40:55 -0000 (UTC)
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 10:55:53 +0000
Post by ColinR
Post by ColinR
One reason yes, but "main" I am not so sure about. We have a major
windfarm being built (will be fully operational next year) and the link
from Shetland to the mainland in Caithness is DC with the associated
converter stations at each end (Kergord in Shetland).
https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2020/06/advantages-of-hvdc-over-hvac-power
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Certes
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by ColinR
-transmission.html
"in case of HVDC that can utilize the earth as the return path"
Huh? How on earth can you use the ground as a return path for DC? There'd
be
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
so much resistance you'd get no power whatsover.
It’s a known and implemented method
https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/16/14/5349
Well I guess if they want to waste huge amounts of power heating up the
ground or the water. Ohms law doesn't change just because you're using very
high voltages.
It may not change, but it does take into account the fact that you have
a very wide conductor. Plus you get free fried fish.
Beyond a certain point (probably inches) I suspect conductor width has little
influence on the resistence but feel free to test it with a single wire, a
torch bulb and battery using the ground as the return.
Torch bulb? Where do you find one of those?
LED then.
Roger Lynn
2023-12-07 22:09:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 16:43:55 +0000
Post by Certes
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 11:40:55 -0000 (UTC)
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 10:55:53 +0000
Post by ColinR
Post by ColinR
One reason yes, but "main" I am not so sure about. We have a major
windfarm being built (will be fully operational next year) and the link
from Shetland to the mainland in Caithness is DC with the associated
converter stations at each end (Kergord in Shetland).
The biggest reason for undersea cables is the capacitance, and therefore
losses, of the cable. Surprisingly, there's a 33 kV AC cable between the
Isle of Man and Blackpool.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Certes
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by ColinR
https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2020/06/advantages-of-hvdc-over-hvac-power-transmission.html
"in case of HVDC that can utilize the earth as the return path"
Huh? How on earth can you use the ground as a return path for DC? There'd be
so much resistance you'd get no power whatsover.
500 MW between Tasmania and Victoria. It has environmental disadvantages but
is cheaper to build.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Certes
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
It's a known and implemented method
https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/16/14/5349
Well I guess if they want to waste huge amounts of power heating up the
ground or the water. Ohms law doesn't change just because you're using very
high voltages.
It may not change, but it does take into account the fact that you have
a very wide conductor. Plus you get free fried fish.
Beyond a certain point (probably inches) I suspect conductor width has little
influence on the resistence but feel free to test it with a single wire, a
torch bulb and battery using the ground as the return.
Not much point in all those low impedance earths that safety people keep
insisting on then.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-08 10:14:16 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 22:09:10 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Beyond a certain point (probably inches) I suspect conductor width has
little
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
influence on the resistence but feel free to test it with a single wire, a
torch bulb and battery using the ground as the return.
Not much point in all those low impedance earths that safety people keep
insisting on then.
You do realise there's a difference between an earth and return? Next time
you change a plug wire the live or neutral to earth instead and see how well
your device works.
Certes
2023-12-08 10:43:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 22:09:10 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Beyond a certain point (probably inches) I suspect conductor width has
little
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
influence on the resistence but feel free to test it with a single wire, a
torch bulb and battery using the ground as the return.
Not much point in all those low impedance earths that safety people keep
insisting on then.
You do realise there's a difference between an earth and return? Next time
you change a plug wire the live or neutral to earth instead and see how well
your device works.
Because Usenet has readers of varying experience:
Please, please do not try this dangerous experiment at home.
nib
2023-12-08 11:07:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Beyond a certain point (probably inches) I suspect conductor width has
little
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
influence on the resistence but feel free to test it with a single
wire, a torch bulb and battery using the ground as the return.
Not much point in all those low impedance earths that safety people keep
insisting on then.
You do realise there's a difference between an earth and return? Next
time you change a plug wire the live or neutral to earth instead and see
how well your device works.
See "single-wire earth return" on Wikipedia for example.

nib
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-08 11:26:23 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 11:07:39 -0000 (UTC)
Post by nib
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Beyond a certain point (probably inches) I suspect conductor width has
little
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
influence on the resistence but feel free to test it with a single
wire, a torch bulb and battery using the ground as the return.
Not much point in all those low impedance earths that safety people keep
insisting on then.
You do realise there's a difference between an earth and return? Next
time you change a plug wire the live or neutral to earth instead and see
how well your device works.
See "single-wire earth return" on Wikipedia for example.
I guess they don't mind wasting huge amounts of energy in some situations
to save a few pennies.
Marland
2023-12-08 15:10:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 22:09:10 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Beyond a certain point (probably inches) I suspect conductor width has
little
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
influence on the resistence but feel free to test it with a single wire, a
torch bulb and battery using the ground as the return.
Not much point in all those low impedance earths that safety people keep
insisting on then.
You do realise there's a difference between an earth and return? Next time
you change a plug wire the live or neutral to earth instead and see how well
your device works.
In many houses swapping the neutral with earth in the plug won’t make much
difference to how a device works though the you may end up with a small
potential on the properties earth circuits. Neutral and earth are bonded
together where the mains supply enters the property .
The suppliers return is then also utilised as the earth and is connected to
earth at regular intervals .
Saves running another conductor and you can often see properties supplied
by overhead suppies with just two conductors,examination of the poles
carrying them will show a wire running down the pole connecting the neutral
to ground.
Known as PME or protective multiple earthings.
We are on such a supply.

GH
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-08 17:14:15 UTC
Permalink
On 8 Dec 2023 15:10:25 GMT
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
You do realise there's a difference between an earth and return? Next time
you change a plug wire the live or neutral to earth instead and see how well
your device works.
In many houses swapping the neutral with earth in the plug won’t make much
difference to how a device works though the you may end up with a small
potential on the properties earth circuits. Neutral and earth are bonded
together where the mains supply enters the property .
The suppliers return is then also utilised as the earth and is connected to
earth at regular intervals .
Saves running another conductor and you can often see properties supplied
by overhead suppies with just two conductors,examination of the poles
carrying them will show a wire running down the pole connecting the neutral
to ground.
Known as PME or protective multiple earthings.
We are on such a supply.
So if you plug something in that is earthed to its metal casing that could
actually be connected indirectly to its own transformer. What could
possibly go wrong.
Charles Ellson
2023-12-08 22:56:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 22:09:10 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Beyond a certain point (probably inches) I suspect conductor width has
little
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
influence on the resistence but feel free to test it with a single wire, a
torch bulb and battery using the ground as the return.
Not much point in all those low impedance earths that safety people keep
insisting on then.
You do realise there's a difference between an earth and return? Next time
you change a plug wire the live or neutral to earth instead and see how well
your device works.
In many houses swapping the neutral with earth in the plug won’t make much
difference to how a device works though the you may end up with a small
potential on the properties earth circuits. Neutral and earth are bonded
together where the mains supply enters the property .
Not with a TN-S system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system
<snip>
Marland
2023-12-09 09:38:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 22:09:10 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Beyond a certain point (probably inches) I suspect conductor width has
little
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
influence on the resistence but feel free to test it with a single wire, a
torch bulb and battery using the ground as the return.
Not much point in all those low impedance earths that safety people keep
insisting on then.
You do realise there's a difference between an earth and return? Next time
you change a plug wire the live or neutral to earth instead and see how well
your device works.
In many houses swapping the neutral with earth in the plug won’t make much
difference to how a device works though the you may end up with a small
potential on the properties earth circuits. Neutral and earth are bonded
together where the mains supply enters the property .
Not with a TN-S system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system
<snip>
Which is why I said many and not all.

GH
Charles Ellson
2023-12-10 03:58:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 22:09:10 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Beyond a certain point (probably inches) I suspect conductor width has
little
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
influence on the resistence but feel free to test it with a single wire, a
torch bulb and battery using the ground as the return.
Not much point in all those low impedance earths that safety people keep
insisting on then.
You do realise there's a difference between an earth and return? Next time
you change a plug wire the live or neutral to earth instead and see how well
your device works.
In many houses swapping the neutral with earth in the plug won?t make much
difference to how a device works though the you may end up with a small
potential on the properties earth circuits. Neutral and earth are bonded
together where the mains supply enters the property .
Not with a TN-S system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system
<snip>
Which is why I said many and not all.
The second sentence can easily be read as a follow-on to the first.
Charles Ellson
2023-12-08 22:50:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 22:09:10 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Beyond a certain point (probably inches) I suspect conductor width has
little
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
influence on the resistence but feel free to test it with a single wire, a
torch bulb and battery using the ground as the return.
Not much point in all those low impedance earths that safety people keep
insisting on then.
You do realise there's a difference between an earth and return? Next time
you change a plug wire the live or neutral to earth instead and see how well
your device works.
It often will depending on how your supply is wired. Not all circuits
will have RCCBs in them.
Graeme Wall
2023-12-07 17:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Certes
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 11:40:55 -0000 (UTC)
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 7 Dec 2023 10:55:53 +0000
Post by ColinR
Post by ColinR
One reason yes, but "main" I am not so sure about. We have a major
windfarm being built (will be fully operational next year) and the link
from Shetland to the mainland in Caithness is DC with the associated
converter stations at each end (Kergord in Shetland).
https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2020/06/advantages-of-hvdc-over-hvac-power
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by ColinR
-transmission.html
"in case of HVDC that can utilize the earth as the return path"
Huh? How on earth can you use the ground as a return path for DC? There'd be
so much resistance you'd get no power whatsover.
It’s a known and implemented method
https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/16/14/5349
Well I guess if they want to waste huge amounts of power heating up the
ground or the water. Ohms law doesn't change just because you're using very
high voltages.
It may not change, but it does take into account the fact that you have
a very wide conductor.  Plus you get free fried fish.
Only on Fridays.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Bob
2023-12-06 17:00:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 12:50:08 +0100
Post by Bob
As a high voltage AC electrification system, the 15 kV system, on
direct-to-the-railway basis is much closer in cost to the 25 kV 50 Hz
system, and does not have the kinds of power limitations that make DC
systems unsuited to higher speed running or heavy freight haulage (300
Actually DC is actually better for high voltage for transfering power as
there are lower losses. National Grid has built some DC interconnects to
other countries for example. These days if building a railway from scratch
you could probably do worse than 25KV *DC* given converting it down to lower
DC voltages is now a solved problem with modern electronics. Of course you
wouldn't get the nice hum for the catenary in the rain :)
High voltage DC has some very specific use cases where it makes sense,
but also comes with some very specific drawbacks that makes it unsuited
for railway traction purposes.

DC has lower losses for long distances where inductance and capacitance
pose a challenge to transmission. Making use of high voltage DC comes
with the challenge of producing a high voltage DC supply, and of doing
something useful with a high voltage DC supply.

Getting mechanical work out of electricity relies on the interaction
between electric current and magnetic fields. The forces involved depend
on the current flowing. Creating coils of wire increases the magnitude
of the forces by the number of turns, but the lower the current, the
more turns in the coils are required. As electrical power is the current
multiplied by the voltage drop, if you start with a very high voltage,
for a given power there is a very low current.

Having a high voltage also creates a significant challenge on
insulators. If you attempt to transition from a bare conductor to an
insulated cable with an earth potential screen (needed to be able to
safely have it near conductive objects at near earth potential like the
frames of a railway vehicle) starts to become challenging at around 10
kV, and by the time you get to tens of kV, you have to design equipment
quite carefully in terms of switchgear, insulation terminations and joints.

These two factors combined means that to create a controlable electric
motor within a railway vehicle, the voltage that the motor itself
utilises can not readily exceed single digit kV. This is why railway DC
electrification at above about 3 kV is practically unheard of.

To make a high voltage DC railway system viable would involve on board
power electronics to convert high voltage DC to high voltage AC, then
step that down to low voltage AC in a power transformer, rectify that
back to DC, invert it to VVVF 3 phase AC and feed that to a traction motor.

Likewise a substation feeding a high voltage DC installation would
involve taking an AC supply from the grid, transforming it to the right
volage, then rectifying it to high voltage DC.

Each conversion step incurs losses. While the OHLE itself, if fed with
AC, will experience inductive and capacitative losses not present with
DC, for the distances and voltages that are relevant to a railway
traction environment, these are less than the losses of the additional
conversion steps.

In short, to use high voltage DC, there is extra complexity in the
supply and on the vehicles, and associated losses, compared with mains
frequency AC, and their efficiency penalties are greater than the very
small gains from DC transmission. Power transmission lines operate at
hundreds of kV and thousands of A. The electrical effects that are
important in that range are not important at the tens of kV and tens of
A that railway electrification involves.

Robin
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-06 17:16:42 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 18:00:37 +0100
Post by Bob
These two factors combined means that to create a controlable electric
motor within a railway vehicle, the voltage that the motor itself
utilises can not readily exceed single digit kV. This is why railway DC
electrification at above about 3 kV is practically unheard of.
To make a high voltage DC railway system viable would involve on board
power electronics to convert high voltage DC to high voltage AC, then
step that down to low voltage AC in a power transformer, rectify that
back to DC, invert it to VVVF 3 phase AC and feed that to a traction motor.
Sure, but you're forgetting that you could put inverters in series. If
each motor on a loco (probably 4) has its own inverter then you can immediately
divide whatever the DC input is by 4. For multiple units it would obviously
be more complicated to do the same but probably not insurmountable.
Bob
2023-12-06 18:10:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 18:00:37 +0100
Post by Bob
These two factors combined means that to create a controlable electric
motor within a railway vehicle, the voltage that the motor itself
utilises can not readily exceed single digit kV. This is why railway DC
electrification at above about 3 kV is practically unheard of.
To make a high voltage DC railway system viable would involve on board
power electronics to convert high voltage DC to high voltage AC, then
step that down to low voltage AC in a power transformer, rectify that
back to DC, invert it to VVVF 3 phase AC and feed that to a traction motor.
Sure, but you're forgetting that you could put inverters in series. If
each motor on a loco (probably 4) has its own inverter then you can immediately
divide whatever the DC input is by 4. For multiple units it would obviously
be more complicated to do the same but probably not insurmountable.
That's already done, and how it is possible to viably use DC up to 3 kV
levels. It does not scale to 25 kV, as first, there would need to be too
many levels (more levels than there are sets of traction motors), and
second, the high voltage equipment still needs to sit in an earthed
metal box, so the demands on insulation make the construction of such
equipment impractical.

Robin
Marland
2023-12-06 18:16:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 12:50:08 +0100
Post by Bob
As a high voltage AC electrification system, the 15 kV system, on
direct-to-the-railway basis is much closer in cost to the 25 kV 50 Hz
system, and does not have the kinds of power limitations that make DC
systems unsuited to higher speed running or heavy freight haulage (300
Actually DC is actually better for high voltage for transfering power as
there are lower losses. National Grid has built some DC interconnects to
other countries for example. These days if building a railway from scratch
you could probably do worse than 25KV *DC* given converting it down to lower
DC voltages is now a solved problem with modern electronics. Of course you
wouldn't get the nice hum for the catenary in the rain :)
Has HVDC switchgear evolved enough that it could economically be provided
in the numbers a railway would need with its need to isolate quite a few
sections? DC switches that have to deal with the Arc from breaking a DC
load are far more specialised than equivalent AC ones.
Where the advantages of DC has lead to long distance interconnection there
will only be switches at the ends which could be hundreds of miles apart, a
railway would not have sections that long and need many more of the
specialised DC switches which as well as being costly in the first place
will be costly to maintain due to their complexity.

GH
Marland
2023-12-06 13:33:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 5 Dec 2023 19:16:43 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Could they not just tap a single phase?
You need to do something with the other two, not easy in the early 20th
Century before grid systems became established. Its not that easy now to
provide for a heavy user of a single phase such as a railway without
causing balance problems in the supply hence substations for normal AC
electrification cannot just be placed and connected up at any point which
might look convenient.
Fair enough. But why then did most railway companies in the UK simply
rectify to DC and put that through a wire or conductor rail back in the 19th
century if it was such an issue?
The rotary converters ,later rectifiers in the substations were connected
across all 3 phases so the load was taken equally across them so no balance
issues.




Seems to be this german (austrian?) railway
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
made a rod for its own back using 3 phase.
It was early days ,everyone was pioneering.

GH
Marland
2023-12-05 20:33:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
The 3-phase system would have been really hard to squeeze into a tunnel,
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/7683489358/in/album-72157630773147320/lightbox/>
Although it didn’t use 3phase the 1st line of the Budapest Metro was
already up and running with clearances and a loading gauge that has
similar restrictions to Londons bored tube lines,
they managed to make it overhead power supply using what was basically a
live rail fixed to the tunnel roof what we probably now call bar conductor.
This photo of one of the old cars that still runs shows the arrangement.
<Loading Image...>

I would think the MET would have used something similar as the Ganz
engineers would have been well aware of it.
Time and the cloak of Communism have obscured how Hungarians were at the
forefront of electrical development at the end of 19th -early 20th
centuries , the engineers who developed the 3 phase electrification soon
realised its limitations and went on to develop single phase supply
converting it to 3 phase on board the Loco.
This bloke

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kálmán_Kandó>

is probably unheard of by most British Enthusiasts but his pioneering work
lead to the AC systems of today and arguably they will be around longer
than the era of steam was whose big names like Gresley , Churchyard ,
Stanier, Bulleid are regarded with reverence.

GH
Graeme Wall
2023-12-05 22:02:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
This bloke
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kálmán_Kandó>
is probably unheard of by most British Enthusiasts but his pioneering work
lead to the AC systems of today and arguably they will be around longer
than the era of steam was whose big names like Gresley , Churchyard,
Churchward
Post by Marland
Stanier, Bulleid are regarded with reverence.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Clank
2023-12-30 14:10:30 UTC
Permalink
Late to this party but I switched my main computer a few months ago and
I've only just got round to installing a newsreader. So using this post
as an excuse to test a reply...
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 5 Dec 2023 14:54:45 GMT
Post by Marland
would have looked quite complicated because of the need to have large
neutral sections where one phase crossed another, trolley buses have them
as well where + and - wires cross but they only need a few inches for a
trolley head whereas pantographs are a lot wider.
Problem with trolley wires is they need their own little points to guide the
pole onto the correct wire which I imagine makes route setting as complex as
any tram system. Perhaps today with smarter AI systems the bus could move the
pole appropriately itself.
Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here, trolley points are
already controlled by the bus itself, and don't rely on any remote
route-setting system or infrastructure.

The two mechanisms I'm aware of - one based on the angle of the poles,
another based on the power draw.

In the first system, it relies on the fact that if the bus is turning,
one of the poles will be leading the other slightly; this can be
detected by one pole crossing a contactor/switch earlier than the other,
which then automatically switches the point to the diverging route.

In the other system, the driver controls it more directly by applying
power; if the bus is coasting, the points will be in the default
direction, if it is drawing power it energises the solenoid that
switches the points.


We have quite a few of these switches in Bucharest. From reading
local-language groups, my understanding is that the exact mechanism of
operation here is that if you draw power for more than X (let's say 5)
seconds inside the "control" zone (a few metres before the switch), that
is what triggers the switch. So if you want to make the turn, you make
sure to draw power for 5 seconds (if you're stuck in traffic, it's
enough to depress the accelerator while holding on the brake), and if
you want to go straight ahead you make sure not to hold the accelerator
any longer than a couple of seconds while in that zone. On this rather
blurry Google Streetview shot you can see the white sign "Macaz cu
comanda dreapta" (roughly translated "Switch commanding right-turn")
which marks the beginning of the control zone:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/ymnptCPRy7ArhKmj9

And here you can see the switch itself, a few metres further down the road:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/kRKsLFtpYNDU1PwA8

The "straight ahead" route actually switches the poles to the left,
while for the right-turn they stay on the same wires.

(Not brilliant pictures, Google's cameras don't appear to be well
optimised for pointing up, and the wires are also a bit complicated here
because you've got trams and trolleys sharing the same street.)


It seems to work pretty reliably, despite general Bucharest
infrastructure maintenance standards, and the fact the wires and switch
are normally buried amid tree foliage. In a near decade of fairly
regularly taking the 79 & 86 trolleybuses (which diverge right here) and
70 (which doesn't), I think I can only remember one occasion where the
driver got it wrong and had to get out and switch the poles.
Marland
2023-12-30 17:32:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clank
Late to this party but I switched my main computer a few months ago and
I've only just got round to installing a newsreader. So using this post
as an excuse to test a reply...
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 5 Dec 2023 14:54:45 GMT
Post by Marland
would have looked quite complicated because of the need to have large
neutral sections where one phase crossed another, trolley buses have them
as well where + and - wires cross but they only need a few inches for a
trolley head whereas pantographs are a lot wider.
Problem with trolley wires is they need their own little points to guide the
pole onto the correct wire which I imagine makes route setting as complex as
any tram system. Perhaps today with smarter AI systems the bus could move the
pole appropriately itself.
Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here, trolley points are
already controlled by the bus itself, and don't rely on any remote
route-setting system or infrastructure.
The two mechanisms I'm aware of - one based on the angle of the poles,
another based on the power draw.
In the first system, it relies on the fact that if the bus is turning,
one of the poles will be leading the other slightly; this can be
detected by one pole crossing a contactor/switch earlier than the other,
which then automatically switches the point to the diverging route.
In the other system, the driver controls it more directly by applying
power; if the bus is coasting, the points will be in the default
direction, if it is drawing power it energises the solenoid that
switches the points.
We have quite a few of these switches in Bucharest. From reading
local-language groups, my understanding is that the exact mechanism of
operation here is that if you draw power for more than X (let's say 5)
seconds inside the "control" zone (a few metres before the switch), that
is what triggers the switch. So if you want to make the turn, you make
sure to draw power for 5 seconds (if you're stuck in traffic, it's
enough to depress the accelerator while holding on the brake), and if
you want to go straight ahead you make sure not to hold the accelerator
any longer than a couple of seconds while in that zone. On this rather
blurry Google Streetview shot you can see the white sign "Macaz cu
comanda dreapta" (roughly translated "Switch commanding right-turn")
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ymnptCPRy7ArhKmj9
https://maps.app.goo.gl/kRKsLFtpYNDU1PwA8
The "straight ahead" route actually switches the poles to the left,
while for the right-turn they stay on the same wires.
(Not brilliant pictures, Google's cameras don't appear to be well
optimised for pointing up, and the wires are also a bit complicated here
because you've got trams and trolleys sharing the same street.)
It seems to work pretty reliably, despite general Bucharest
infrastructure maintenance standards, and the fact the wires and switch
are normally buried amid tree foliage. In a near decade of fairly
regularly taking the 79 & 86 trolleybuses (which diverge right here) and
70 (which doesn't), I think I can only remember one occasion where the
driver got it wrong and had to get out and switch the poles.
The draw power for one route setting method was used by British systems and
I think a couple used
the other method you mentioned, that still left a lot that were manually
controlled by pulling down a handle on a roadside pole for the diverging
route against a spring which held the frog for the main one. The
traditional British layout with an open rear platform and a conductor
helped as they could easily step off to go and work the handle and step
back on once the trolley heads were past the frogs. At really busy
intersections a member of staff was stationed roadside when it was
busy,often someone like an ex serviceman who had got injured in the war and
could not return driving or conducting. In winter he may even had a small
brazier to keep warm.
This was getting on for around 70+ years ago in the UK so other traffic was
much lighter , nowadays
stepping of a vehicle approaching a turning then making ones way to the
roadside and then back to a bus which has stopped again would soon see an
impatient motorist or cyclist collide with the conductor. And lets face it,
with various modern methods available why would one need to.


GH
Clank
2023-12-30 20:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Clank
It seems to work pretty reliably, despite general Bucharest
infrastructure maintenance standards, and the fact the wires and switch
are normally buried amid tree foliage. In a near decade of fairly
regularly taking the 79 & 86 trolleybuses (which diverge right here) and
70 (which doesn't), I think I can only remember one occasion where the
driver got it wrong and had to get out and switch the poles.
The draw power for one route setting method was used by British systems and
I think a couple used
the other method you mentioned, that still left a lot that were manually
controlled by pulling down a handle on a roadside pole for the diverging
route against a spring which held the frog for the main one. The
traditional British layout with an open rear platform and a conductor
helped as they could easily step off to go and work the handle and step
back on once the trolley heads were past the frogs. At really busy
intersections a member of staff was stationed roadside when it was
busy,often someone like an ex serviceman who had got injured in the war and
could not return driving or conducting. In winter he may even had a small
brazier to keep warm.
This was getting on for around 70+ years ago in the UK so other traffic was
much lighter , nowadays
stepping of a vehicle approaching a turning then making ones way to the
roadside and then back to a bus which has stopped again would soon see an
impatient motorist or cyclist collide with the conductor.
I wonder if that's really true? On the continent it's quite common
where the tram lines are in the outside lane of a road for them to stop
and let passengers off directly into the inside lane, and traffic is
expected to be disciplined enough not to run people over. Not just in
the wild east, but in civilised places like (IIRC the most recent place
I noticed) Munich. One does wonder from time to time if the UK takes
things too far in attempting to regulate absolutely all risk out of life...
Post by Marland
And lets face it,
with various modern methods available why would one need to.
Well, indeed. I presume with a new trolley system you could come up
with a smarter method of driver-controlled points - something like using
a simple power-line networking protocol to allow the bus to communicate
its intentions to the switch (which you could also use to do things like
getting priority at traffic lights and the like.)
Coffee
2023-12-30 20:31:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Clank
It seems to work pretty reliably, despite general Bucharest
infrastructure maintenance standards, and the fact the wires and switch
are normally buried amid tree foliage.  In a near decade of fairly
regularly taking the 79 & 86 trolleybuses (which diverge right here) and
70 (which doesn't), I think I can only remember one occasion where the
driver got it wrong and had to get out and switch the poles.
The draw power for one route setting method was used by British systems and
I think a couple used
the other method you mentioned, that still left a lot that were manually
controlled by pulling down a handle on a roadside pole for the diverging
route against a spring which held the frog for the main one.   The
traditional British layout with an open rear platform and a conductor
helped as they could easily step off to go and work the handle and step
back on once the trolley heads were past the frogs. At really busy
intersections a member of staff was stationed roadside when it was
busy,often someone like an ex serviceman who had got injured in the war and
could not return driving or conducting. In winter he may even had a small
brazier to keep warm.
This was getting on for around 70+ years ago in the UK so other traffic was
much lighter , nowadays
stepping of a vehicle approaching a turning then making ones way to the
roadside and then back to a bus which has stopped again would soon see an
impatient motorist or cyclist collide with the conductor.
I wonder if that's really true?  On the continent it's quite common
where the tram lines are in the outside lane of a road for them to stop
and let passengers off directly into the inside lane, and traffic is
expected to be disciplined enough not to run people over.  Not just in
the wild east, but in civilised places like (IIRC the most recent place
I noticed) Munich.  One does wonder from time to time if the UK takes
things too far in attempting to regulate absolutely all risk out of life...
Car drivers in the UK are certainly far more ill disciplined than German
ones.
Post by Marland
And lets face it,
with various modern methods available why would one need to.
Well, indeed.  I presume with a new trolley system you could come up
with a smarter method of driver-controlled points - something like using
a simple power-line networking protocol to allow the bus to communicate
its intentions to the switch (which you could also use to do things like
getting priority at traffic lights and the like.)
Rolf Mantel
2024-01-08 14:40:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Clank
It seems to work pretty reliably, despite general Bucharest
infrastructure maintenance standards, and the fact the wires and switch
are normally buried amid tree foliage.  In a near decade of fairly
regularly taking the 79 & 86 trolleybuses (which diverge right here) and
70 (which doesn't), I think I can only remember one occasion where the
driver got it wrong and had to get out and switch the poles.
The draw power for one route setting method was used by British systems and
I think a couple used
the other method you mentioned, that still left a lot that were manually
controlled by pulling down a handle on a roadside pole for the diverging
route against a spring which held the frog for the main one.   The
traditional British layout with an open rear platform and a conductor
helped as they could easily step off to go and work the handle and step
back on once the trolley heads were past the frogs. At really busy
intersections a member of staff was stationed roadside when it was
busy,often someone like an ex serviceman who had got injured in the war and
could not return driving or conducting. In winter he may even had a small
brazier to keep warm.
This was getting on for around 70+ years ago in the UK so other traffic was
much lighter , nowadays
stepping of a vehicle approaching a turning then making ones way to the
roadside and then back to a bus which has stopped again would soon see an
impatient motorist or cyclist collide with the conductor.
I wonder if that's really true?  On the continent it's quite common
where the tram lines are in the outside lane of a road for them to stop
and let passengers off directly into the inside lane, and traffic is
expected to be disciplined enough not to run people over.  Not just in
the wild east, but in civilised places like (IIRC the most recent place
I noticed) Munich.  One does wonder from time to time if the UK takes
things too far in attempting to regulate absolutely all risk out of life...
Apart from the fact that 'tram stop in the outside lane' is incompatible
with modern accessibility requirements that typically require a raised
platform, it used to be best practice in Germany that the tram stops
were traffic-light protected, allowing passengers to exit and cross to
the pavement safely.

I remember one situation as a car driver at an unprotected tram stop in
the early 1990's that caused me to read the German highway code: you
were allowed to pass a stopped tram at walking speed ready to stop if
necessary in such situations, i.e. similar to a zebra crossing with the
added challenge that you don't see the person jumping onto the road in
front of you.

Rolf

Rolf
Clank
2024-01-08 15:19:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rolf Mantel
I wonder if that's really true?  On the continent it's quite common
where the tram lines are in the outside lane of a road for them to stop
and let passengers off directly into the inside lane, and traffic is
expected to be disciplined enough not to run people over.  Not just in
the wild east, but in civilised places like (IIRC the most recent place
I noticed) Munich.  One does wonder from time to time if the UK takes
things too far in attempting to regulate absolutely all risk out of life...
Apart from the fact that 'tram stop in the outside lane' is incompatible
with modern accessibility requirements that typically require a raised
platform, it used to be best practice in Germany that the tram stops
were traffic-light protected, allowing passengers to exit and cross to
the pavement safely.
The great city of Munich would like to interject that it doesn't give a
rat's arse about your modern accessibility requirements or best practices:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/d6jsiFobjkEuCcyk7

(You will note the position of the tram rails, the position of the stop
for the number 16 and 17 tram routes, and a complete absence of protecting
traffic lights.)


Then again, I suppose not giving a rat's arse about German best practices
is rather the Bavarian way ;-).
Rolf Mantel
2024-01-08 15:57:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clank
Post by Rolf Mantel
I wonder if that's really true?  On the continent it's quite common
where the tram lines are in the outside lane of a road for them to stop
and let passengers off directly into the inside lane, and traffic is
expected to be disciplined enough not to run people over.  Not just in
the wild east, but in civilised places like (IIRC the most recent place
I noticed) Munich.  One does wonder from time to time if the UK takes
things too far in attempting to regulate absolutely all risk out of life...
Apart from the fact that 'tram stop in the outside lane' is incompatible
with modern accessibility requirements that typically require a raised
platform, it used to be best practice in Germany that the tram stops
were traffic-light protected, allowing passengers to exit and cross to
the pavement safely.
The great city of Munich would like to interject that it doesn't give a
https://maps.app.goo.gl/d6jsiFobjkEuCcyk7
(You will note the position of the tram rails, the position of the stop
for the number 16 and 17 tram routes, and a complete absence of protecting
traffic lights.)
The term 'Grandfather rights' springs to mind. Heidelberg has one
similar tram-stop left but secured by traffic lights (note the cobbles
between the tram tracks); maybe the traffic lights were an additional
safety requirement for running on 'Bundesstraße' (A-Road) only.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/iZp3nZvnhduDBZQm7

The rest was re-built within the last decade to

https://maps.app.goo.gl/JMV2kYJb68BtGf3PA

or

https://maps.app.goo.gl/yQVVJZXQXXW3F3Pb9
Post by Clank
Then again, I suppose not giving a rat's arse about German best practices
is rather the Bavarian way ;-).
;-)

Matthew Geier
2023-12-30 21:14:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clank
The two mechanisms I'm aware of - one based on the angle of the poles,
another based on the power draw.
Power / coast point controllers are very common on tramways. Largely
replaced now by coded radio transponders as modern 'LRV's with their air
conditioners don't place nice with them. When the air-conditioning is
drawing more power than traction, 'coasting' under the sensor,
significant power is still being drawn.

On double-ended trams with pantographs, the driver has to we aware of
when end the pantograph is over, so they can adjust their 'power-coast'
appropriately to select the route. (Some systems equipped their
bi-directional trams with 2 pantographs, and when changing ends, they
would change pantographs - so the relationship between the pantograph
and the driver was always the same.)

Trolley buses just move the points to the overhead as they have no
track. But largely the same technology was used to select the route.
Same 'problem' , same solution.
Charles Ellson
2023-12-31 06:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clank
Late to this party but I switched my main computer a few months ago and
I've only just got round to installing a newsreader. So using this post
as an excuse to test a reply...
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 5 Dec 2023 14:54:45 GMT
Post by Marland
would have looked quite complicated because of the need to have large
neutral sections where one phase crossed another, trolley buses have them
as well where + and - wires cross but they only need a few inches for a
trolley head whereas pantographs are a lot wider.
Problem with trolley wires is they need their own little points to guide the
pole onto the correct wire which I imagine makes route setting as complex as
any tram system. Perhaps today with smarter AI systems the bus could move the
pole appropriately itself.
Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here, trolley points are
already controlled by the bus itself, and don't rely on any remote
route-setting system or infrastructure.
There are the occasional photographs of junctions with manually set
points (lever at the bottom of the pole, rodding up the pole,
direction indicator part way up the pole). AFAIR they were usually at
permanently-staffed locations such as depots or terminals, presumably
anything more complicated being regarded as unnecessary when a Mk.1
human was always available. ISTR there was also the element that the
points weren't 100% efficient which could have added to local staff
being regarded as a better way of switching.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-05 09:41:18 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 04 Dec 2023 17:24:29 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 04 Dec 2023 17:01:50 +0000
Post by Scott
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into
the
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Given that EMUs seem to be around 6 inches lower than most locos in the UK
what on earth would happen if say a 12'9 class 66 or worse a 13ft high
class
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Scott
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
60 headed down there? I presume certain stock must be banned from the route
for this reason.
We have a line here (Glasgow to Paisley Canal) where I believe the
procedure is to turn off the power if a diesel locomotive is to
traverse the route.
Makes sense. Though I'm thinking at farringdon the wire could be scraping the
roof of the loco. Perhaps during maintenance they raise it somehow as well
as switching power off.
This photo indicates that it's a conductor bar, rather than a wire, and the
/
I said farringdon, not St P.
Recliner
2023-12-05 10:29:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 04 Dec 2023 17:24:29 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 04 Dec 2023 17:01:50 +0000
Post by Scott
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into
the
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Given that EMUs seem to be around 6 inches lower than most locos in the UK
what on earth would happen if say a 12'9 class 66 or worse a 13ft high
class
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Scott
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
60 headed down there? I presume certain stock must be banned from the route
for this reason.
We have a line here (Glasgow to Paisley Canal) where I believe the
procedure is to turn off the power if a diesel locomotive is to
traverse the route.
Makes sense. Though I'm thinking at farringdon the wire could be scraping the
roof of the loco. Perhaps during maintenance they raise it somehow as well
as switching power off.
This photo indicates that it's a conductor bar, rather than a wire, and the
/
I said farringdon, not St P.
Yes, I seached for images of class 700s at Farringdon, and that one came
up. Only after posting did I realise that it was taken at St Pancras. I
promptly posted a correction.
Coffee
2023-12-05 10:52:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 04 Dec 2023 17:24:29 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 04 Dec 2023 17:01:50 +0000
Post by Scott
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into
the
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Given that EMUs seem to be around 6 inches lower than most locos in the UK
what on earth would happen if say a 12'9 class 66 or worse a 13ft high
class
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Scott
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
60 headed down there? I presume certain stock must be banned from the route
for this reason.
We have a line here (Glasgow to Paisley Canal) where I believe the
procedure is to turn off the power if a diesel locomotive is to
traverse the route.
Makes sense. Though I'm thinking at farringdon the wire could be scraping the
roof of the loco. Perhaps during maintenance they raise it somehow as well
as switching power off.
This photo indicates that it's a conductor bar, rather than a wire, and the
/
I said farringdon, not St P.
Yes, I seached for images of class 700s at Farringdon, and that one came
up. Only after posting did I realise that it was taken at St Pancras. I
promptly posted a correction.
That's the bane of my life.

Unfortunately search engines prioritise the most popular websites over
exactly what you search for. If you're searching for something a bit
obscure you can be stuffed.
Recliner
2023-12-05 11:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Coffee
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 04 Dec 2023 17:24:29 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 04 Dec 2023 17:01:50 +0000
Post by Scott
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into
the
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Given that EMUs seem to be around 6 inches lower than most locos in the UK
what on earth would happen if say a 12'9 class 66 or worse a 13ft high
class
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Scott
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
60 headed down there? I presume certain stock must be banned from the route
for this reason.
We have a line here (Glasgow to Paisley Canal) where I believe the
procedure is to turn off the power if a diesel locomotive is to
traverse the route.
Makes sense. Though I'm thinking at farringdon the wire could be scraping the
roof of the loco. Perhaps during maintenance they raise it somehow as well
as switching power off.
This photo indicates that it's a conductor bar, rather than a wire, and the
/
I said farringdon, not St P.
Yes, I seached for images of class 700s at Farringdon, and that one came
up. Only after posting did I realise that it was taken at St Pancras. I
promptly posted a correction.
That's the bane of my life.
Unfortunately search engines prioritise the most popular websites over
exactly what you search for. If you're searching for something a bit
obscure you can be stuffed.
I think it found a page featuring that line, with pictures taken at both
(and possibly other) stations, but the individual images don't always show
where they were taken. I was too focused on looking at the OHLE height to
notice the platform differences.
Alan Lee
2023-12-04 17:18:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into the
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Given that EMUs seem to be around 6 inches lower than most locos in the UK
what on earth would happen if say a 12'9 class 66 or worse a 13ft high class
60 headed down there? I presume certain stock must be banned from the route
for this reason.
From another group:

Only class 31 , 33/2 and class 73 are route cleared due to a height
restriction ( minimum overhead line clearance ) mark 1 and 2 coaching
stock also cleared. The overhead line must be isolated (but not earthed)
15 mph speed restriction opening windows should be closed.
--
Remove the '+' and replace with 'plus' to reply by email
Recliner
2023-12-04 17:35:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Lee
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into the
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Given that EMUs seem to be around 6 inches lower than most locos in the UK
what on earth would happen if say a 12'9 class 66 or worse a 13ft high class
60 headed down there? I presume certain stock must be banned from the route
for this reason.
Only class 31 , 33/2 and class 73 are route cleared due to a height
restriction ( minimum overhead line clearance ) mark 1 and 2 coaching
stock also cleared. The overhead line must be isolated (but not earthed)
15 mph speed restriction opening windows should be closed.
I wonder what traction is used for maintenance trains? Perhaps they hire
in GBRf 73s?
Roland Perry
2023-12-05 19:15:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into the
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Air is an insulator, roughly 25kV per inch. TVs with CRTs commonly had
30kV inside them. Yes droopy wires can reduce the clearance, but often
there are measures in place to reduce that possibility.

Meanwhile, on some OHL routes locos aren't allowed because of the power
drain, rather than the clearance.
--
Roland Perry
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-06 09:39:07 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 19:15:46 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into
the
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Air is an insulator, roughly 25kV per inch. TVs with CRTs commonly had
Though I imagine that varies depending on humidity.
Post by Roland Perry
30kV inside them. Yes droopy wires can reduce the clearance, but often
You could get a nice lightshow with some old CRTs in the dark putting a pin
close to the screen.
Roland Perry
2023-12-06 09:46:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 19:15:46 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train
come into the platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked
like it was mere inches above the roof of the train.
Air is an insulator, roughly 25kV per inch. TVs with CRTs commonly had
Though I imagine that varies depending on humidity.
Not as much as you suppose. And to cause grief you need an actual arc,
not just the occasional crackle.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Roland Perry
30kV inside them. Yes droopy wires can reduce the clearance, but often
You could get a nice lightshow with some old CRTs in the dark putting a pin
close to the screen.
--
Roland Perry
Scott
2023-12-06 10:02:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into the
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Air is an insulator, roughly 25kV per inch. TVs with CRTs commonly had
30kV inside them. Yes droopy wires can reduce the clearance, but often
there are measures in place to reduce that possibility.
Meanwhile, on some OHL routes locos aren't allowed because of the power
drain, rather than the clearance.
Would they be allowed at night when passenger service (sleepers apart)
has ended?
billy bookcase
2023-12-08 08:33:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into the
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Given that EMUs seem to be around 6 inches lower than most locos in the UK
what on earth would happen if say a 12'9 class 66 or worse a 13ft high class
60 headed down there? I presume certain stock must be banned from the route
for this reason.
Or not it would seem...

Dec 8th *

quote:

Passengers stuck for hours on Elizabeth Line after cables damaged

:unquote

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67655656


bb
Graeme Wall
2023-12-08 09:13:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by billy bookcase
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into the
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Given that EMUs seem to be around 6 inches lower than most locos in the UK
what on earth would happen if say a 12'9 class 66 or worse a 13ft high class
60 headed down there? I presume certain stock must be banned from the route
for this reason.
Or not it would seem...
Dec 8th *
Passengers stuck for hours on Elizabeth Line after cables damaged
:unquote
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67655656
What has that got to do with Farringdon?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Tweed
2023-12-08 09:16:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by billy bookcase
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into the
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Given that EMUs seem to be around 6 inches lower than most locos in the UK
what on earth would happen if say a 12'9 class 66 or worse a 13ft high class
60 headed down there? I presume certain stock must be banned from the route
for this reason.
Or not it would seem...
Dec 8th *
Passengers stuck for hours on Elizabeth Line after cables damaged
:unquote
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67655656
What has that got to do with Farringdon?
Apparently the EL core operation came to a halt as a consequence of above
ground OHLE damage outside of Paddington.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-08 10:19:34 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 09:16:26 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Tweed
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by billy bookcase
Passengers stuck for hours on Elizabeth Line after cables damaged
:unquote
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67655656
What has that got to do with Farringdon?
Apparently the EL core operation came to a halt as a consequence of above
ground OHLE damage outside of Paddington.
God forbid they should start running reversers to paddington in the core and
let the passengers off the train before 4 hours. And wasn't it 8 hours on
a eurostar the other week stuck outside folkstone?

The railways in this country really are run by absolute fucking clowns.
Bob
2023-12-08 11:07:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 09:16:26 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Tweed
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by billy bookcase
Passengers stuck for hours on Elizabeth Line after cables damaged
:unquote
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67655656
What has that got to do with Farringdon?
Apparently the EL core operation came to a halt as a consequence of above
ground OHLE damage outside of Paddington.
God forbid they should start running reversers to paddington in the core and
let the passengers off the train before 4 hours. And wasn't it 8 hours on
a eurostar the other week stuck outside folkstone?
The railways in this country really are run by absolute fucking clowns.
The reversing siding for turning trains at Paddington is on the surface
beyond the station, it is likely the power supply there was equally
affected.

Robin
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2023-12-08 15:27:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 09:16:26 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Tweed
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by billy bookcase
Passengers stuck for hours on Elizabeth Line after cables damaged
:unquote
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67655656
What has that got to do with Farringdon?
Apparently the EL core operation came to a halt as a consequence of above
ground OHLE damage outside of Paddington.
God forbid they should start running reversers to paddington in the core and
let the passengers off the train before 4 hours. And wasn't it 8 hours on
a eurostar the other week stuck outside folkstone?
The railways in this country really are run by absolute fucking clowns.
The reversing siding for turning trains at Paddington is on the surface
beyond the station, it is likely the power supply there was equally
affected.
According to the Sectional Appendix there's a neutral section between the
turnback sidings and the main line.

<https://x.com/annanoyddryver/status/1733141336696430776>

(The capacitor symbol is the neutral section)


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2023-12-08 11:01:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by billy bookcase
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into the
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Given that EMUs seem to be around 6 inches lower than most locos in the UK
what on earth would happen if say a 12'9 class 66 or worse a 13ft high class
60 headed down there? I presume certain stock must be banned from the route
for this reason.
Or not it would seem...
Dec 8th *
Passengers stuck for hours on Elizabeth Line after cables damaged
:unquote
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67655656
What has that got to do with Farringdon?
Apparently the EL core operation came to a halt as a consequence of above
ground OHLE damage outside of Paddington.
Yes, I noticed some trains had been held for 30-50 minutes during a
westbound trip across the capital; I'm surprised there isn't a plan in
place to turn everything at Paddington in that situation and keep the
service moving across the centre.

Still unrelated to previous discussion about OLE heights on Thameslink at
Farringdon, though!


Anna Noyd-Dryver
billy bookcase
2023-12-08 12:22:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Still unrelated to previous discussion about OLE heights on Thameslink at
Farringdon, though!
Which would of course be a perfectly valid point were it the case that
the only circumstances under which the overhead wire height - the actual
topic under discussion I believe - could ever represent a problem, would
be at Farringdon Station.

Whereas the TfL spokesperson for one, would appear to disagree

quote:

Transport for London (TfL) said the power lines were damaged by another
rail operator's train.

:unquote

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67655656


bb
Graeme Wall
2023-12-08 14:12:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Still unrelated to previous discussion about OLE heights on Thameslink at
Farringdon, though!
Which would of course be a perfectly valid point were it the case that
the only circumstances under which the overhead wire height - the actual
topic under discussion I believe - could ever represent a problem, would
be at Farringdon Station.
Whereas the TfL spokesperson for one, would appear to disagree
Transport for London (TfL) said the power lines were damaged by another
rail operator's train.
:unquote
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67655656
bb
But not at Farringdon and not on Thameslink.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2023-12-08 15:27:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Still unrelated to previous discussion about OLE heights on Thameslink at
Farringdon, though!
Which would of course be a perfectly valid point were it the case that
the only circumstances under which the overhead wire height - the actual
topic under discussion I believe - could ever represent a problem, would
be at Farringdon Station.
Whereas the TfL spokesperson for one, would appear to disagree
Transport for London (TfL) said the power lines were damaged by another
rail operator's train.
:unquote
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67655656
The height of the wires was unrelated to yesterday's incident.

(Their intended height, that is)


Anna Noyd-Dryver
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-08 10:17:05 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 08:33:56 -0000
Post by billy bookcase
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I was standing at farringdon today and watched a Thameslink train come into
the
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
platform. Under the footbridge the 25KV wire looked like it was mere inches
above the roof of the train.
Given that EMUs seem to be around 6 inches lower than most locos in the UK
what on earth would happen if say a 12'9 class 66 or worse a 13ft high class
60 headed down there? I presume certain stock must be banned from the route
for this reason.
Or not it would seem...
Dec 8th *
Passengers stuck for hours on Elizabeth Line after cables damaged
:unquote
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67655656
I don't know why people wait so long. I'd be pulling the emergency door
release after an hour and just walk to the next station. I did it once on
Thameslink (albeit we were sitting at a station at the time) when the driver
refused to open the doors to let us off because we'd officially left the
station even though we'd only moved about 20m to the end of the platform.
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