Discussion:
ULEZ hypocrisy
(too old to reply)
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-23 16:54:20 UTC
Permalink
This afternoon I noticed 2 single deckers , one 2012 the other 2011 on a
london bus route. Last time I looked diesel vehicles older than 2016 had to
pay the charge. But I guess it doesn't apply for TfLs contractors, they can
pollute as much as they like no doubt and get paid to do it.
Graeme Wall
2023-12-23 17:18:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
This afternoon I noticed 2 single deckers , one 2012 the other 2011 on a
london bus route. Last time I looked diesel vehicles older than 2016 had to
pay the charge. But I guess it doesn't apply for TfLs contractors, they can
pollute as much as they like no doubt and get paid to do it.
How do you know they don't have to pay?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-24 15:04:28 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 17:18:42 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
This afternoon I noticed 2 single deckers , one 2012 the other 2011 on a
london bus route. Last time I looked diesel vehicles older than 2016 had to
pay the charge. But I guess it doesn't apply for TfLs contractors, they can
pollute as much as they like no doubt and get paid to do it.
How do you know they don't have to pay?
I can't imagine a private company would operate them if they had to pay
a charge every day especially given they're probably not very economic
compared to a modern bus either.
D A Stocks
2023-12-23 22:44:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
This afternoon I noticed 2 single deckers , one 2012 the other 2011 on a
london bus route. Last time I looked diesel vehicles older than 2016 had to
pay the charge. But I guess it doesn't apply for TfLs contractors, they can
pollute as much as they like no doubt and get paid to do it.
The rules are based on emmisions, not the age of the vehicle:
https://www.mylondon.news/news/how-london-buses-ulez-compliant-27421185

--
DAS
Roland Perry
2023-12-24 08:13:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by D A Stocks
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
This afternoon I noticed 2 single deckers , one 2012 the other 2011
on a london bus route. Last time I looked diesel vehicles older than
2016 had to pay the charge. But I guess it doesn't apply for TfLs
contractors, they can pollute as much as they like no doubt and get
paid to do it.
https://www.mylondon.news/news/how-london-buses-ulez-compliant-27421185
As usual, Muttley has got it completely backwards. Cars registered from
2016 onwards are assumed to be compliant (and eventually TfL agreed that
mine is), but older vehicles could be compliant.

However: "Some have wondered how these large, fuel guzzling and, in some
cases, more than a decade old vehicles do not incur ultra low emission
zone (ULEZ) fines" is a little wide of the mark, because you'd only get
fined if you didn't pay the ULEZ *charge*.

TfL apparently agrees that some of its fleet (such as rent-a-wrecks
used for driver training) *might* not be ULEZ compliant, so presumably
the operators of those *will* be paying the daily charge. Which will be
peanuts compared to the other costs of running such a driver training
course.
--
Roland Perry
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-24 15:12:24 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 08:13:02 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by D A Stocks
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
This afternoon I noticed 2 single deckers , one 2012 the other 2011
on a london bus route. Last time I looked diesel vehicles older than
2016 had to pay the charge. But I guess it doesn't apply for TfLs
contractors, they can pollute as much as they like no doubt and get
paid to do it.
https://www.mylondon.news/news/how-london-buses-ulez-compliant-27421185
As usual, Muttley has got it completely backwards. Cars registered from
2016 onwards are assumed to be compliant (and eventually TfL agreed that
mine is), but older vehicles could be compliant.
A worn out 12 year old bus that has probably literally done a million miles?
Highly unlikely.
Post by Roland Perry
TfL apparently agrees that some of its fleet (such as rent-a-wrecks
used for driver training) *might* not be ULEZ compliant, so presumably
the operators of those *will* be paying the daily charge. Which will be
peanuts compared to the other costs of running such a driver training
course.
Really?

https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/new-tighter-lez-standards-for-h
gvs-in-london

"buses and coaches must now meet Euro VI (NOx and PM) emissions standards
or pay a daily charge of up to 300"

I wouldn't call 300 quid peanuts. Thats probably a significant portion of the
days fare collection, possibly more on a sunday.
Roland Perry
2023-12-26 07:33:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 08:13:02 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by D A Stocks
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
This afternoon I noticed 2 single deckers , one 2012 the other 2011
on a london bus route. Last time I looked diesel vehicles older than
2016 had to pay the charge. But I guess it doesn't apply for TfLs
contractors, they can pollute as much as they like no doubt and get
paid to do it.
https://www.mylondon.news/news/how-london-buses-ulez-compliant-27421185
As usual, Muttley has got it completely backwards. Cars registered from
2016 onwards are assumed to be compliant (and eventually TfL agreed that
mine is), but older vehicles could be compliant.
A worn out 12 year old bus that has probably literally done a million miles?
Highly unlikely.
Clearly, not all the pre-2016 buses meet that description (trivially,
because a 2015 bus is only 8yrs old.

But do read the linked article, there's a dear [I can't believe I'm
calling a chatbot 'dear']. It explains what technical measures they've
implemented to make many of the older ones compliant.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Roland Perry
TfL apparently agrees that some of its fleet (such as rent-a-wrecks
used for driver training) *might* not be ULEZ compliant, so presumably
the operators of those *will* be paying the daily charge. Which will be
peanuts compared to the other costs of running such a driver training
course.
Really?
https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/new-tighter-lez-standar
ds-for-h gvs-in-london
"buses and coaches must now meet Euro VI (NOx and PM) emissions standards
or pay a daily charge of up to 300"
I wouldn't call 300 quid peanuts. Thats probably a significant portion of the
days fare collection, possibly more on a sunday.
It might surprise you, they don't collect fares on driver-training
buses.

Anyway, depending on how "up to" £300 it is, a driver training course is
currently around £450/day, but not every day is "on the road" (because
there's theory to study and be examined on, and quite a bit of the
driving is on private property not public roads.
--
Roland Perry
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-26 08:28:04 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 26 Dec 2023 07:33:23 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 08:13:02 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by D A Stocks
https://www.mylondon.news/news/how-london-buses-ulez-compliant-27421185
As usual, Muttley has got it completely backwards. Cars registered from
2016 onwards are assumed to be compliant (and eventually TfL agreed that
mine is), but older vehicles could be compliant.
A worn out 12 year old bus that has probably literally done a million miles?
Highly unlikely.
Clearly, not all the pre-2016 buses meet that description (trivially,
because a 2015 bus is only 8yrs old.
But do read the linked article, there's a dear [I can't believe I'm
calling a chatbot 'dear']. It explains what technical measures they've
implemented to make many of the older ones compliant.
I did. And if a bus can be made Euro 6 compliant so can a car but we weren't
given that choice. Unless its TfL spin and BS which is far more likely
especially given the crap that comes out the exhaust pipe of these old buses
which barely looks Euro anything compliant.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I wouldn't call 300 quid peanuts. Thats probably a significant portion of the
days fare collection, possibly more on a sunday.
It might surprise you, they don't collect fares on driver-training
buses.
I'm not sure where you go the idea these were training buses. They were both
in service buses on the 298 route based at Potters Bar garage.
D A Stocks
2023-12-27 15:56:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 26 Dec 2023 07:33:23 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 08:13:02 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by D A Stocks
https://www.mylondon.news/news/how-london-buses-ulez-compliant-27421185
As usual, Muttley has got it completely backwards. Cars registered from
2016 onwards are assumed to be compliant (and eventually TfL agreed that
mine is), but older vehicles could be compliant.
A worn out 12 year old bus that has probably literally done a million miles?
Highly unlikely.
Clearly, not all the pre-2016 buses meet that description (trivially,
because a 2015 bus is only 8yrs old.
But do read the linked article, there's a dear [I can't believe I'm
calling a chatbot 'dear']. It explains what technical measures they've
implemented to make many of the older ones compliant.
I did. And if a bus can be made Euro 6 compliant
This is a fairly common thing that is economically feasible
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
so can a car but we weren't given that choice.
This is *not* likely to happen. Reasons are given here:
https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/service/clean-vehicle-retrofit-accreditation-scheme/

--
DAS
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-27 16:49:28 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 15:56:02 -0000
Post by D A Stocks
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 26 Dec 2023 07:33:23 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 08:13:02 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by D A Stocks
https://www.mylondon.news/news/how-london-buses-ulez-compliant-27421185
As usual, Muttley has got it completely backwards. Cars registered from
2016 onwards are assumed to be compliant (and eventually TfL agreed that
mine is), but older vehicles could be compliant.
A worn out 12 year old bus that has probably literally done a million miles?
Highly unlikely.
Clearly, not all the pre-2016 buses meet that description (trivially,
because a 2015 bus is only 8yrs old.
But do read the linked article, there's a dear [I can't believe I'm
calling a chatbot 'dear']. It explains what technical measures they've
implemented to make many of the older ones compliant.
I did. And if a bus can be made Euro 6 compliant
This is a fairly common thing that is economically feasible
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
so can a car but we weren't given that choice.
https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/service/clean-vehicle-retrofit-accreditation-s
cheme/
So IOW politics not mechanics and ickle Sadiq gets to keep coining it.
Graeme Wall
2023-12-27 18:59:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 15:56:02 -0000
Post by D A Stocks
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 26 Dec 2023 07:33:23 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 08:13:02 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by D A Stocks
https://www.mylondon.news/news/how-london-buses-ulez-compliant-27421185
As usual, Muttley has got it completely backwards. Cars registered from
2016 onwards are assumed to be compliant (and eventually TfL agreed that
mine is), but older vehicles could be compliant.
A worn out 12 year old bus that has probably literally done a million miles?
Highly unlikely.
Clearly, not all the pre-2016 buses meet that description (trivially,
because a 2015 bus is only 8yrs old.
But do read the linked article, there's a dear [I can't believe I'm
calling a chatbot 'dear']. It explains what technical measures they've
implemented to make many of the older ones compliant.
I did. And if a bus can be made Euro 6 compliant
This is a fairly common thing that is economically feasible
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
so can a car but we weren't given that choice.
https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/service/clean-vehicle-retrofit-accreditation-s
cheme/
So IOW politics not mechanics and ickle Sadiq gets to keep coining it.
It's neither politics or mechanics but economics. There's an economic
case for producing conversion kits for buses bit not for cars. As the
page points out, if you've got a diesel car that isn't compliant, even
if a conversion kit is available, it would be cheaper to buy a second
hand petrol car of the smae vintage which would be compliant.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-28 09:22:44 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 18:59:29 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
So IOW politics not mechanics and ickle Sadiq gets to keep coining it.
It's neither politics or mechanics but economics. There's an economic
case for producing conversion kits for buses bit not for cars. As the
page points out, if you've got a diesel car that isn't compliant, even
if a conversion kit is available, it would be cheaper to buy a second
hand petrol car of the smae vintage which would be compliant.
I think you're rather missing the point of car ownership for some people.
I've looked after my reasonably upmarket car and kept it in good nick since new
and for a diesel the engine is barely run in. I don't want to trade it in for
some 2nd or 3rd hand knackered hatchback thats had god knows what done to it
and in it by other people.

For some of us there's more to a car than just a device to get from A to B
just as a house is more than just a roof to keep the rain off.
Roland Perry
2023-12-29 10:07:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 26 Dec 2023 07:33:23 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 08:13:02 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by D A Stocks
https://www.mylondon.news/news/how-london-buses-ulez-compliant-27421185
As usual, Muttley has got it completely backwards. Cars registered from
2016 onwards are assumed to be compliant (and eventually TfL agreed that
mine is), but older vehicles could be compliant.
A worn out 12 year old bus that has probably literally done a million miles?
Highly unlikely.
Clearly, not all the pre-2016 buses meet that description (trivially,
because a 2015 bus is only 8yrs old.
But do read the linked article, there's a dear [I can't believe I'm
calling a chatbot 'dear']. It explains what technical measures they've
implemented to make many of the older ones compliant.
I did. And if a bus can be made Euro 6 compliant so can a car but we weren't
given that choice.
Again, your lack of engineering experience is showing.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Unless its TfL spin and BS which is far more likely especially given
the crap that comes out the exhaust pipe of these old buses which
barely looks Euro anything compliant.
Which old buses?
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I wouldn't call 300 quid peanuts. Thats probably a significant portion of the
days fare collection, possibly more on a sunday.
It might surprise you, they don't collect fares on driver-training
buses.
I'm not sure where you go the idea these were training buses.
From the article cited earler.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
They were both
in service buses on the 298 route based at Potters Bar garage.
In which case they'll be ULEZ compliant, whatever they "look like" to
you.
--
Roland Perry
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-29 10:25:03 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 29 Dec 2023 10:07:29 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I did. And if a bus can be made Euro 6 compliant so can a car but we weren't
given that choice.
Again, your lack of engineering experience is showing.
Oh please. Most diesel cars with a new DPF and ad-blue system could easily
make Euro 6.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Unless its TfL spin and BS which is far more likely especially given
the crap that comes out the exhaust pipe of these old buses which
barely looks Euro anything compliant.
Which old buses?
Are you Roland or ChatGPT? There seems to be an odd disconnect in your
comprehension even between sections of the same post , never mind different
ones.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I'm not sure where you go the idea these were training buses.
From the article cited earler.
Who cares about some article FFS? I was talking about in service buses.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
They were both
in service buses on the 298 route based at Potters Bar garage.
In which case they'll be ULEZ compliant, whatever they "look like" to
you.
My car could also be made ULEZ compliant but I'm not given that option and
if blue smoke coming out of an exhaust is ULEZ compliant then clearly the
rules are more flexible than anyone realised.
Graeme Wall
2023-12-29 10:39:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Fri, 29 Dec 2023 10:07:29 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I did. And if a bus can be made Euro 6 compliant so can a car but we weren't
given that choice.
Again, your lack of engineering experience is showing.
Oh please. Most diesel cars with a new DPF and ad-blue system could easily
make Euro 6.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Unless its TfL spin and BS which is far more likely especially given
the crap that comes out the exhaust pipe of these old buses which
barely looks Euro anything compliant.
Which old buses?
Are you Roland or ChatGPT? There seems to be an odd disconnect in your
comprehension even between sections of the same post , never mind different
ones.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I'm not sure where you go the idea these were training buses.
From the article cited earler.
Who cares about some article FFS? I was talking about in service buses.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
They were both
in service buses on the 298 route based at Potters Bar garage.
In which case they'll be ULEZ compliant, whatever they "look like" to
you.
My car could also be made ULEZ compliant but I'm not given that option and
if blue smoke coming out of an exhaust is ULEZ compliant then clearly the
rules are more flexible than anyone realised.
Have you asked the main dealers for your vehicle whether they have a
compliance kit for it?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-29 11:18:35 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 29 Dec 2023 10:39:43 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Fri, 29 Dec 2023 10:07:29 +0000
My car could also be made ULEZ compliant but I'm not given that option and
if blue smoke coming out of an exhaust is ULEZ compliant then clearly the
rules are more flexible than anyone realised.
Have you asked the main dealers for your vehicle whether they have a
compliance kit for it?
There are no main dealers for my car any more as they pulled out of the UK
market about 10 years ago.

Right now I'm in a quandry as to whether to sell it to Motorway and get
around 1600 quid for it but knowing it'll probably go to a good home elsewhere
in the UK, or do the ULEZ scrappage scheme to get 2000 + 250 quid scrap value
and watch a car in good condition with only 100K miles on it go for scrap.
Graeme Wall
2023-12-29 12:03:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Fri, 29 Dec 2023 10:39:43 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Fri, 29 Dec 2023 10:07:29 +0000
My car could also be made ULEZ compliant but I'm not given that option and
if blue smoke coming out of an exhaust is ULEZ compliant then clearly the
rules are more flexible than anyone realised.
Have you asked the main dealers for your vehicle whether they have a
compliance kit for it?
There are no main dealers for my car any more as they pulled out of the UK
market about 10 years ago.
Right now I'm in a quandry as to whether to sell it to Motorway and get
around 1600 quid for it but knowing it'll probably go to a good home elsewhere
in the UK, or do the ULEZ scrappage scheme to get 2000 + 250 quid scrap value
and watch a car in good condition with only 100K miles on it go for scrap.
Or Ukraine
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-29 16:06:01 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 29 Dec 2023 12:03:59 +0000
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Fri, 29 Dec 2023 10:39:43 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Fri, 29 Dec 2023 10:07:29 +0000
My car could also be made ULEZ compliant but I'm not given that option and
if blue smoke coming out of an exhaust is ULEZ compliant then clearly the
rules are more flexible than anyone realised.
Have you asked the main dealers for your vehicle whether they have a
compliance kit for it?
There are no main dealers for my car any more as they pulled out of the UK
market about 10 years ago.
Right now I'm in a quandry as to whether to sell it to Motorway and get
around 1600 quid for it but knowing it'll probably go to a good home
elsewhere
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
in the UK, or do the ULEZ scrappage scheme to get 2000 + 250 quid scrap value
and watch a car in good condition with only 100K miles on it go for scrap.
Or Ukraine
I heard it was only 4x4s they wanted. Mine is a standard 2 wheel drive saloon.
It would be great if it did end up there but given it would cost Khans evil
elves time and money to sort it out I won't hold my breath. ULEZ is all about
cash not the enviroment otherwise scrapping perfectly good vehicles before EOL
wouldn't even be considered.
Theo
2023-12-29 21:53:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Fri, 29 Dec 2023 12:03:59 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Right now I'm in a quandry as to whether to sell it to Motorway and get
around 1600 quid for it but knowing it'll probably go to a good home
elsewhere in the UK, or do the ULEZ scrappage scheme to get 2000 + 250
quid scrap value and watch a car in good condition with only 100K miles
on it go for scrap.
Or Ukraine
"Recent discussions with officials in Kyiv have confirmed that only certain
vehicle types are suitable and desirable, namely heavy-duty models. Kyiv
has confirmed that regular cars and vans, which make up the vast majority of
vehicles being scrapped under the ULEZ scrappage scheme, are not suitable
for their current needs."
https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/sending-ulez-non-compliant-vehicles-ukraine-1
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I heard it was only 4x4s they wanted. Mine is a standard 2 wheel drive saloon.
It would be great if it did end up there but given it would cost Khans evil
elves time and money to sort it out I won't hold my breath. ULEZ is all about
cash not the enviroment otherwise scrapping perfectly good vehicles before EOL
wouldn't even be considered.
How is it about cash when they will pay you 2K to scrap your car, which is
more than it's worth?

(if you reckon you could get more than £1600 stick it on Autotrader or ebay)

Theo
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-30 09:49:14 UTC
Permalink
On 29 Dec 2023 21:53:09 +0000 (GMT)
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I heard it was only 4x4s they wanted. Mine is a standard 2 wheel drive
saloon.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
It would be great if it did end up there but given it would cost Khans evil
elves time and money to sort it out I won't hold my breath. ULEZ is all about
cash not the enviroment otherwise scrapping perfectly good vehicles before
EOL
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
wouldn't even be considered.
How is it about cash when they will pay you 2K to scrap your car, which is
more than it's worth?
He was forced to do that by the government. Left to his own devices Khunt
wouldn't have coughed up a penny. And if you don't think it was about money
why did he choose a cut off date of late 2015 for diesels? An 8 year old diesel
car or van is barely run in and he knew perfectly well he'd coin it particularly
with the number of traders vans that wouldn't comply as they tend to run them
into the ground before replacement.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
(if you reckon you could get more than £1600 stick it on Autotrader or ebay)
Feck that. Short of someone turning up with a suitcase of cash there's no
way in hell I'd sell it privately. Far too risky particularly here in London.
Graeme Wall
2023-12-30 09:54:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 29 Dec 2023 21:53:09 +0000 (GMT)
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I heard it was only 4x4s they wanted. Mine is a standard 2 wheel drive
saloon.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
It would be great if it did end up there but given it would cost Khans evil
elves time and money to sort it out I won't hold my breath. ULEZ is all about
cash not the enviroment otherwise scrapping perfectly good vehicles before
EOL
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
wouldn't even be considered.
How is it about cash when they will pay you 2K to scrap your car, which is
more than it's worth?
He was forced to do that by the government.
When?

Left to his own devices Khunt
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
wouldn't have coughed up a penny. And if you don't think it was about money
why did he choose a cut off date of late 2015 for diesels? An 8 year old diesel
car or van is barely run in and he knew perfectly well he'd coin it particularly
with the number of traders vans that wouldn't comply as they tend to run them
into the ground before replacement.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
(if you reckon you could get more than £1600 stick it on Autotrader or ebay)
Feck that. Short of someone turning up with a suitcase of cash there's no
way in hell I'd sell it privately. Far too risky particularly here in London.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2023-12-30 14:56:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
why did he choose a cut off date of late 2015 for diesels?
Because that's when manufacturers were forced to sell vehicles to the
latest Euro spec. Before then, a vehicle might have been manufactured to
be compliant, but few brands bothered.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2023-12-30 16:09:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 29 Dec 2023 21:53:09 +0000 (GMT)
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I heard it was only 4x4s they wanted. Mine is a standard 2 wheel drive
saloon.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
It would be great if it did end up there but given it would cost Khans evil
elves time and money to sort it out I won't hold my breath. ULEZ is all about
cash not the enviroment otherwise scrapping perfectly good vehicles before
EOL
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
wouldn't even be considered.
How is it about cash when they will pay you 2K to scrap your car, which is
more than it's worth?
He was forced to do that by the government. Left to his own devices Khunt
wouldn't have coughed up a penny. And if you don't think it was about money
why did he choose a cut off date of late 2015 for diesels?
Read the ULEZ rules. He didn't pick a cut-off date, just the minimum Euro
emissions standards:

The ULEZ standards are:

• Euro 3 for motorcycles, mopeds, motorised tricycles and quadricycles (L
category)

• Euro 4 (NOx) for petrol cars, vans, minibuses and other specialist
vehicles

• Euro 6 (NOx and PM) for diesel cars, vans and minibuses and other
specialist vehicles
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-30 17:46:58 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 16:09:56 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 29 Dec 2023 21:53:09 +0000 (GMT)
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I heard it was only 4x4s they wanted. Mine is a standard 2 wheel drive
saloon.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
It would be great if it did end up there but given it would cost Khans evil
elves time and money to sort it out I won't hold my breath. ULEZ is all
about
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
cash not the enviroment otherwise scrapping perfectly good vehicles before
EOL
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
wouldn't even be considered.
How is it about cash when they will pay you 2K to scrap your car, which is
more than it's worth?
He was forced to do that by the government. Left to his own devices Khunt
wouldn't have coughed up a penny. And if you don't think it was about money
why did he choose a cut off date of late 2015 for diesels?
Read the ULEZ rules. He didn't pick a cut-off date, just the minimum Euro
Yes I know. Point is why Euro 6 for diesels but only euro 4 for petrol. Well
we know the answer - its the latest date he could use to screw diesel drivers on
emissions.
Theo
2023-12-30 18:06:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 16:09:56 GMT
Post by Recliner
Read the ULEZ rules. He didn't pick a cut-off date, just the minimum Euro
Yes I know. Point is why Euro 6 for diesels but only euro 4 for petrol. Well
we know the answer - its the latest date he could use to screw diesel drivers on
emissions.
Euro 5b diesel (g/km):
CO 0.5
NOx 0.18
HC+NOx 0.23
PM 0.0045

Euro 6b diesel:
CO 0.5
NOx 0.08
HC+NOx 0.17
PM 0.0045

Euro 3 petrol:
CO 1.0
NOx 0.15
THC 0.2
PM 0.0045

Euro 4 petrol:
CO 1.0
NOx 0.08
THC 0.1
PM 0.0045

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards
(there wasn't a Euro 6a AFAICS)

So Euro 4 petrol and Euro 6 diesel both permit the same amount of NOx, which
is 40% the level of Euro 3 petrol and Euro 5 diesel. They both allow the
same levels of pollution, it's just that diesels only attained that standard
a decade later than petrol.

Diesels are just dirtier, in other words.

Theo
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-30 18:39:53 UTC
Permalink
On 30 Dec 2023 18:06:39 +0000 (GMT)
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 16:09:56 GMT
Post by Recliner
Read the ULEZ rules. He didn't pick a cut-off date, just the minimum Euro
Yes I know. Point is why Euro 6 for diesels but only euro 4 for petrol. Well
we know the answer - its the latest date he could use to screw diesel
drivers on
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
emissions.
CO 0.5
NOx 0.18
HC+NOx 0.23
PM 0.0045
CO 0.5
NOx 0.08
HC+NOx 0.17
PM 0.0045
CO 1.0
NOx 0.15
THC 0.2
PM 0.0045
CO 1.0
NOx 0.08
THC 0.1
PM 0.0045
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards
(there wasn't a Euro 6a AFAICS)
So Euro 4 petrol and Euro 6 diesel both permit the same amount of NOx, which
is 40% the level of Euro 3 petrol and Euro 5 diesel. They both allow the
same levels of pollution, it's just that diesels only attained that standard
a decade later than petrol.
Diesels are just dirtier, in other words.
I notice you left out CO2. All the stuff diesels chuck out would be gone in
a day if traffic stopped but the CO2 will be hanging around for thousands of
years.

Also something never mentioned is at filling stations - the stink of petrol
is quite noticable compared to diesel and there must be a fair cloud of
volatiles drifting around most petrol stations and those volatiles can cause
smog.
Recliner
2023-12-30 21:08:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 30 Dec 2023 18:06:39 +0000 (GMT)
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 16:09:56 GMT
Post by Recliner
Read the ULEZ rules. He didn't pick a cut-off date, just the minimum Euro
Yes I know. Point is why Euro 6 for diesels but only euro 4 for petrol. Well
we know the answer - its the latest date he could use to screw diesel
drivers on
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
emissions.
CO 0.5
NOx 0.18
HC+NOx 0.23
PM 0.0045
CO 0.5
NOx 0.08
HC+NOx 0.17
PM 0.0045
CO 1.0
NOx 0.15
THC 0.2
PM 0.0045
CO 1.0
NOx 0.08
THC 0.1
PM 0.0045
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards
(there wasn't a Euro 6a AFAICS)
So Euro 4 petrol and Euro 6 diesel both permit the same amount of NOx, which
is 40% the level of Euro 3 petrol and Euro 5 diesel. They both allow the
same levels of pollution, it's just that diesels only attained that standard
a decade later than petrol.
Diesels are just dirtier, in other words.
I notice you left out CO2. All the stuff diesels chuck out would be gone in
a day if traffic stopped but the CO2 will be hanging around for thousands of
years.
Surely even you must know that the ULEZ is aimed at improving London's
unacceptably unhealthy poor air quality? It's nothing to do with global
warming.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-31 16:09:20 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 21:08:24 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I notice you left out CO2. All the stuff diesels chuck out would be gone in
a day if traffic stopped but the CO2 will be hanging around for thousands of
years.
Surely even you must know that the ULEZ is aimed at improving London's
unacceptably unhealthy poor air quality? It's nothing to do with global
warming.
There's nothing poor about londons air quality compared to even 20 years ago.
And usual the smug ealier adopters of EVs are often the ones with the Aga oven
and wood burning stove at home pumping out more particulates and CO than a 1970s
school bus.
Graeme Wall
2023-12-31 16:29:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 21:08:24 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I notice you left out CO2. All the stuff diesels chuck out would be gone in
a day if traffic stopped but the CO2 will be hanging around for thousands of
years.
Surely even you must know that the ULEZ is aimed at improving London's
unacceptably unhealthy poor air quality? It's nothing to do with global
warming.
There's nothing poor about londons air quality compared to even 20 years ago.
Oh yes there is! That is the problem
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-31 16:50:30 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 16:29:42 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 21:08:24 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I notice you left out CO2. All the stuff diesels chuck out would be gone in
a day if traffic stopped but the CO2 will be hanging around for thousands
of
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
years.
Surely even you must know that the ULEZ is aimed at improving London's
unacceptably unhealthy poor air quality? It's nothing to do with global
warming.
There's nothing poor about londons air quality compared to even 20 years ago.
Oh yes there is! That is the problem
If that was the case - and it isn't - then clearly the original ULEZ and LEZ
did bugger all so why bother expanding them?
Graeme Wall
2023-12-31 19:02:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 16:29:42 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 21:08:24 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I notice you left out CO2. All the stuff diesels chuck out would be gone in
a day if traffic stopped but the CO2 will be hanging around for thousands
of
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
years.
Surely even you must know that the ULEZ is aimed at improving London's
unacceptably unhealthy poor air quality? It's nothing to do with global
warming.
There's nothing poor about londons air quality compared to even 20 years ago.
Oh yes there is! That is the problem
If that was the case - and it isn't - then clearly the original ULEZ and LEZ
did bugger all so why bother expanding them?
They did, and do, work, hence the reason to expand them.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-01-01 09:07:12 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 19:02:44 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 16:29:42 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 21:08:24 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I notice you left out CO2. All the stuff diesels chuck out would be gone
in
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
a day if traffic stopped but the CO2 will be hanging around for thousands
of
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
years.
Surely even you must know that the ULEZ is aimed at improving London's
unacceptably unhealthy poor air quality? It's nothing to do with global
warming.
There's nothing poor about londons air quality compared to even 20 years
ago.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Graeme Wall
Oh yes there is! That is the problem
If that was the case - and it isn't - then clearly the original ULEZ and LEZ
did bugger all so why bother expanding them?
They did, and do, work, hence the reason to expand them.
ULEZ has done nothing because there weren't that many private cars in inner
london to start with. The thing thats done most to clean up the air in central
london is the slow disappearance of knackered black cabs belching black smoke
and the buses being changed from diesel to hybrid and now electric. Emissions
from private cars would be a stastical blip.
Graeme Wall
2024-01-01 09:20:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 19:02:44 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 16:29:42 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 21:08:24 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I notice you left out CO2. All the stuff diesels chuck out would be gone
in
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
a day if traffic stopped but the CO2 will be hanging around for thousands
of
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
years.
Surely even you must know that the ULEZ is aimed at improving London's
unacceptably unhealthy poor air quality? It's nothing to do with global
warming.
There's nothing poor about londons air quality compared to even 20 years
ago.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Graeme Wall
Oh yes there is! That is the problem
If that was the case - and it isn't - then clearly the original ULEZ and LEZ
did bugger all so why bother expanding them?
They did, and do, work, hence the reason to expand them.
ULEZ has done nothing because there weren't that many private cars in inner
london to start with. The thing thats done most to clean up the air in central
london is the slow disappearance of knackered black cabs belching black smoke
and the buses being changed from diesel to hybrid and now electric. Emissions
from private cars would be a stastical blip.
So you agree the system does work.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-01-01 09:44:51 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 09:20:09 +0000
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
ULEZ has done nothing because there weren't that many private cars in inner
london to start with. The thing thats done most to clean up the air in
central
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
london is the slow disappearance of knackered black cabs belching black smoke
and the buses being changed from diesel to hybrid and now electric. Emissions
from private cars would be a stastical blip.
So you agree the system does work.
Oxford street had, maybe still has, the highest NOx of any street in the
country. Its been bus and taxi only for years , so how would banning private
cars have ANY effect on that level? And large lorries have specific hours
they can come into london , usually early morning and late evenings only , so
their effect would be neglibable too. So the vast majority of pollution in
central london was TfLs own knackered buses and the prehistoric coventry cabs
a lot of which dated from the last century.
Graeme Wall
2024-01-01 11:26:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 09:20:09 +0000
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
ULEZ has done nothing because there weren't that many private cars in inner
london to start with. The thing thats done most to clean up the air in
central
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
london is the slow disappearance of knackered black cabs belching black smoke
and the buses being changed from diesel to hybrid and now electric. Emissions
from private cars would be a stastical blip.
So you agree the system does work.
Oxford street had, maybe still has, the highest NOx of any street in the
country. Its been bus and taxi only for years , so how would banning private
cars have ANY effect on that level? And large lorries have specific hours
they can come into london , usually early morning and late evenings only , so
their effect would be neglibable too. So the vast majority of pollution in
central london was TfLs own knackered buses and the prehistoric coventry cabs
a lot of which dated from the last century.
Regardless of who owned them[1] you have just agreed that removing the
worst polluting vehicles has been advantageous.

[1]For the record TfL owns neither buses nor taxis.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Recliner
2024-01-01 11:37:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 09:20:09 +0000
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
ULEZ has done nothing because there weren't that many private cars in inner
london to start with. The thing thats done most to clean up the air in
central
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
london is the slow disappearance of knackered black cabs belching black smoke
and the buses being changed from diesel to hybrid and now electric. Emissions
from private cars would be a stastical blip.
So you agree the system does work.
Oxford street had, maybe still has, the highest NOx of any street in the
country. Its been bus and taxi only for years , so how would banning private
cars have ANY effect on that level? And large lorries have specific hours
they can come into london , usually early morning and late evenings only , so
their effect would be neglibable too. So the vast majority of pollution in
central london was TfLs own knackered buses and the prehistoric coventry cabs
a lot of which dated from the last century.
Regardless of who owned them[1] you have just agreed that removing the
worst polluting vehicles has been advantageous.
[1]For the record TfL owns neither buses nor taxis.
Aren't the Boris buses owned by TfL, and leased to the operators? I don't
think any leasing companies or bus operators were interested in buying what
they regarded as an over-priced bus that would probably have a short life,
and no secondary market. Another BoJo triumph!
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-01-01 15:51:14 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 11:26:10 +0000
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 09:20:09 +0000
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
ULEZ has done nothing because there weren't that many private cars in inner
london to start with. The thing thats done most to clean up the air in
central
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
london is the slow disappearance of knackered black cabs belching black
smoke
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
and the buses being changed from diesel to hybrid and now electric.
Emissions
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
from private cars would be a stastical blip.
So you agree the system does work.
Oxford street had, maybe still has, the highest NOx of any street in the
country. Its been bus and taxi only for years , so how would banning private
cars have ANY effect on that level? And large lorries have specific hours
they can come into london , usually early morning and late evenings only , so
their effect would be neglibable too. So the vast majority of pollution in
central london was TfLs own knackered buses and the prehistoric coventry cabs
a lot of which dated from the last century.
Regardless of who owned them[1] you have just agreed that removing the
worst polluting vehicles has been advantageous.
The worst polluting vehicles were not pre 2016 private diesel cars. Forcing the
sale or scrapping of perfectly servicable (at the time) 5 year old diesel cars
was just spiteful and totally unnecessary. I realise the orginal idea was the
blonde buffoons but khan could have modified it. Naturally Mr V8 Range Rover
decided not to.
Graeme Wall
2024-01-01 17:38:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 11:26:10 +0000
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 09:20:09 +0000
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
ULEZ has done nothing because there weren't that many private cars in inner
london to start with. The thing thats done most to clean up the air in
central
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
london is the slow disappearance of knackered black cabs belching black
smoke
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
and the buses being changed from diesel to hybrid and now electric.
Emissions
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
from private cars would be a stastical blip.
So you agree the system does work.
Oxford street had, maybe still has, the highest NOx of any street in the
country. Its been bus and taxi only for years , so how would banning private
cars have ANY effect on that level? And large lorries have specific hours
they can come into london , usually early morning and late evenings only , so
their effect would be neglibable too. So the vast majority of pollution in
central london was TfLs own knackered buses and the prehistoric coventry cabs
a lot of which dated from the last century.
Regardless of who owned them[1] you have just agreed that removing the
worst polluting vehicles has been advantageous.
The worst polluting vehicles were not pre 2016 private diesel cars. Forcing the
sale or scrapping of perfectly servicable (at the time) 5 year old diesel cars
was just spiteful and totally unnecessary. I realise the orginal idea was the
blonde buffoons but khan could have modified it. Naturally Mr V8 Range Rover
decided not to.
Why should he modify it, it was probably the only useful thing that
Boris did while mayor.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-01-02 09:36:21 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 17:38:11 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
The worst polluting vehicles were not pre 2016 private diesel cars. Forcing
the
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
sale or scrapping of perfectly servicable (at the time) 5 year old diesel
cars
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
was just spiteful and totally unnecessary. I realise the orginal idea was the
blonde buffoons but khan could have modified it. Naturally Mr V8 Range Rover
decided not to.
Why should he modify it, it was probably the only useful thing that
Boris did while mayor.
Scrapping nearly new cars is not only enviromentally criminal but is also
penalising people who followed the Labour governments "buy diesel to help
the enviroment" mantra. Then suddenly 15 years later its "diesel is bad
for the enviroment". If you need any kind of example of why people have such
disdain for politicians this is a good one.

Also now the westminster muppets are promoting EVs (huge CO2 cost in building
them, enviromental destruction in mining the batteries minerals) as the
latest enviromental saviour. But guess what - now all the first adopters
have blown their cash on them their percent of the market is dropping.
I wonder why.
Recliner
2024-01-02 10:55:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 17:38:11 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
The worst polluting vehicles were not pre 2016 private diesel cars. Forcing
the
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
sale or scrapping of perfectly servicable (at the time) 5 year old diesel
cars
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
was just spiteful and totally unnecessary. I realise the orginal idea was the
blonde buffoons but khan could have modified it. Naturally Mr V8 Range Rover
decided not to.
Why should he modify it, it was probably the only useful thing that
Boris did while mayor.
Scrapping nearly new cars is not only enviromentally criminal but is also
penalising people who followed the Labour governments "buy diesel to help
the enviroment" mantra.
Nobody would be scrapping nearly-new cars — their resale value would be
much higher than the scrappage allowance.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Then suddenly 15 years later its "diesel is bad
for the enviroment". If you need any kind of example of why people have such
disdain for politicians this is a good one.
Diesels are bad for local air quality, but better for global warming. In
big cities, poor air quality is the bigger issue. For local air quality,
BEVs are best, or public transport, so some measures are designed to push
people that way.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Also now the westminster muppets are promoting EVs (huge CO2 cost in building
them, enviromental destruction in mining the batteries minerals) as the
latest enviromental saviour. But guess what - now all the first adopters
have blown their cash on them their percent of the market is dropping.
I wonder why.
They are still more expensive to buy than ICE cars, though the gap is
falling. It's the tax incentives that make them affordable, and those have
been falling for private buyers. They still exist for company cars.

For many people, recharging remains an issue, so they're less likely to buy
BEVs.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-01-02 11:10:34 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 10:55:40 GMT
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Scrapping nearly new cars is not only enviromentally criminal but is also
penalising people who followed the Labour governments "buy diesel to help
the enviroment" mantra.
Nobody would be scrapping nearly-new cars — their resale value would be
much higher than the scrappage allowance.
Possibly.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Then suddenly 15 years later its "diesel is bad
for the enviroment". If you need any kind of example of why people have such
disdain for politicians this is a good one.
Diesels are bad for local air quality, but better for global warming. In
big cities, poor air quality is the bigger issue. For local air quality,
The poor air quality in inner london is mostly down to buses and taxis.
The amount of empty black cabs driving around looking for fares is ridiculous.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
them, enviromental destruction in mining the batteries minerals) as the
latest enviromental saviour. But guess what - now all the first adopters
have blown their cash on them their percent of the market is dropping.
I wonder why.
They are still more expensive to buy than ICE cars, though the gap is
falling. It's the tax incentives that make them affordable, and those have
been falling for private buyers. They still exist for company cars.
More political genius. The rate of EV takeup is dropping so reduce the
incentives that make people consider buying them. *sigh*
For many people, recharging remains an issue, so they're less likely to buy
BEVs.
True.
Recliner
2024-01-02 12:10:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 10:55:40 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Scrapping nearly new cars is not only enviromentally criminal but is also
penalising people who followed the Labour governments "buy diesel to help
the enviroment" mantra.
Nobody would be scrapping nearly-new cars — their resale value would be
much higher than the scrappage allowance.
Possibly.
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Then suddenly 15 years later its "diesel is bad
for the enviroment". If you need any kind of example of why people have such
disdain for politicians this is a good one.
Diesels are bad for local air quality, but better for global warming. In
big cities, poor air quality is the bigger issue. For local air quality,
The poor air quality in inner london is mostly down to buses and taxis.
The amount of empty black cabs driving around looking for fares is ridiculous.
Most buses and taxis in inner London are now hybrids, PHEVs or BEVs.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
them, enviromental destruction in mining the batteries minerals) as the
latest enviromental saviour. But guess what - now all the first adopters
have blown their cash on them their percent of the market is dropping.
I wonder why.
They are still more expensive to buy than ICE cars, though the gap is
falling. It's the tax incentives that make them affordable, and those have
been falling for private buyers. They still exist for company cars.
More political genius. The rate of EV takeup is dropping so reduce the
incentives that make people consider buying them. *sigh*
The politicians are smarter and better-informed than you. Have you never
heard of the ZEV Mandate?
Andy Burns
2024-01-02 12:27:59 UTC
Permalink
Have you never heard of the ZEV Mandate?
Sounds like a cosy way for Tesla (who only sell EVs) to make some extra
by "selling" their 22% ICE quota to other manufacturers for something
lower than the £15k compliance payment?

Same number of Teslas get sold, same number of ICE cars get sold, HMG
doesn't rake-in any "fines" ... brilliant.
Recliner
2024-01-02 12:45:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Have you never heard of the ZEV Mandate?
Sounds like a cosy way for Tesla (who only sell EVs) to make some extra
by "selling" their 22% ICE quota to other manufacturers for something
lower than the £15k compliance payment?
Same number of Teslas get sold, same number of ICE cars get sold, HMG
doesn't rake-in any "fines" ... brilliant.
That's been going on for years. When Tesla first started to make a profit,
it was entirely from the sales of regulatory credits; they made up for the
losses on its other businesses.

https://stockdividendscreener.com/auto-manufacturers/teslas-regulatory-credits-revenue/

Of course, there are now many BEV makers who will be happy to sell BEV
credits to manufacturers slow to switch, such as JLR. In effect, there
will be a cross-subsidy from ICE to BEV vehicles. It saves the government
from having to subsidise BEVs, and accelerates the move from ICE to BEV
vehicles.

The Chinese will be the initial winners, as they were much quicker to
invest in BEV components and vehicles.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-01-02 15:10:30 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 12:10:56 GMT
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 10:55:40 GMT
The poor air quality in inner london is mostly down to buses and taxis.
The amount of empty black cabs driving around looking for fares is
ridiculous.
Most buses and taxis in inner London are now hybrids, PHEVs or BEVs.
Its nowhere near to most. Maybe 30% of red buses and perhaps half of taxis.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
More political genius. The rate of EV takeup is dropping so reduce the
incentives that make people consider buying them. *sigh*
The politicians are smarter and better-informed than you. Have you never
heard of the ZEV Mandate?
I didn't know the name but 2035 is still 11 years away and until petrol and
diesel cars are banned the majority of people will still buy them in preference.
Andy Burns
2024-01-02 15:41:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Have you never heard of the ZEV Mandate?
I didn't know the name
"The Vehicle Emissions Trading Schemes Order 2023" came into effect
yesterday

in particular see article 28
<https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2023/1394/article/28/made>

and schedule 6 part 1
<https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2023/1394/schedule/6/part/1/made>

in short, for every car above 78% of ICE vehicles that a manufacturer
sells, they get "fined" £15k, of course there are ways and means
built-in to fudge the figures ...
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
but 2035 is still 11 years away and until petrol and
diesel cars are banned the majority of people will still buy them in preference.
The 2030 date was back-pedalled to its original 2035 and I wouldn't rule
out further back-pedalling ...
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-01-02 15:50:57 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 15:41:03 +0000
Post by Andy Burns
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Have you never heard of the ZEV Mandate?
I didn't know the name
"The Vehicle Emissions Trading Schemes Order 2023" came into effect
yesterday
in particular see article 28
<https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2023/1394/article/28/made>
and schedule 6 part 1
<https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2023/1394/schedule/6/part/1/made>
in short, for every car above 78% of ICE vehicles that a manufacturer
sells, they get "fined" £15k, of course there are ways and means
built-in to fudge the figures ...
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
but 2035 is still 11 years away and until petrol and
diesel cars are banned the majority of people will still buy them in
preference.
The 2030 date was back-pedalled to its original 2035 and I wouldn't rule
out further back-pedalling ...
He was simply aligning with the EU. I would have assumed the bien pensants
would have been thrilled ithat we'd followed they beloved Brussels but instead
they were incandescent. You just can't win with some people.
Theo
2024-01-02 13:04:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 10:55:40 GMT
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Scrapping nearly new cars is not only enviromentally criminal but is also
penalising people who followed the Labour governments "buy diesel to help
the enviroment" mantra.
Nobody would be scrapping nearly-new cars â?? their resale value would be
much higher than the scrappage allowance.
Possibly.
The cars eligible for scrapping are all pre-2016, so 8 or more years old.
That hardly counts as nearly new.

If the car is older but worth more than scrappage will pay, sell it to
somebody outside London. National dealers like Carwow, WBAC, Cazoo and
others would be worth a try - they shift stock around the country so not so
affected by what happens in London. You could also contact smaller dealers
further afield, if you are prepared to drive there for an
assessment/dropoff.

Theo
Recliner
2024-01-02 13:32:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 10:55:40 GMT
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Scrapping nearly new cars is not only enviromentally criminal but is also
penalising people who followed the Labour governments "buy diesel to help
the enviroment" mantra.
Nobody would be scrapping nearly-new cars â?? their resale value would be
much higher than the scrappage allowance.
Possibly.
The cars eligible for scrapping are all pre-2016, so 8 or more years old.
That hardly counts as nearly new.
If the car is older but worth more than scrappage will pay, sell it to
somebody outside London. National dealers like Carwow, WBAC, Cazoo and
others would be worth a try - they shift stock around the country so not so
affected by what happens in London. You could also contact smaller dealers
further afield, if you are prepared to drive there for an
assessment/dropoff.
I sold my non-compliant Jaguar to WeBuyAnyCar.com, which is owned by BCA. I gather that all the cars they buy go
straight to BCA, and could end up anywhere. I think it now lives in Scotland.
Andy Burns
2024-01-02 13:51:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
I sold my non-compliant Jaguar to WeBuyAnyCar.com, which is owned by
BCA. I gather that all the cars they buy go straight to BCA, and
could end up anywhere. I think it now lives in Scotland.
They could be sold straight back to the public via BCA's Cinch subsiduary.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-01-02 15:13:08 UTC
Permalink
On 02 Jan 2024 13:04:56 +0000 (GMT)
Post by Theo
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 10:55:40 GMT
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Scrapping nearly new cars is not only enviromentally criminal but is also
penalising people who followed the Labour governments "buy diesel to help
the enviroment" mantra.
Nobody would be scrapping nearly-new cars â?? their resale value would be
much higher than the scrappage allowance.
Possibly.
The cars eligible for scrapping are all pre-2016, so 8 or more years old.
That hardly counts as nearly new.
When did the original central London ULEZ come into force? Your starter for
10...
Post by Theo
If the car is older but worth more than scrappage will pay, sell it to
somebody outside London. National dealers like Carwow, WBAC, Cazoo and
Carwow are a bunch of thieves though I suppose Watson has to make a ton of
cash to fund his youtube channel. Hadn't heard of WBAC however.
Post by Theo
affected by what happens in London. You could also contact smaller dealers
further afield, if you are prepared to drive there for an
assessment/dropoff.
Time is money as they say plus taxis and train fares arn't free.
Andy Burns
2024-01-02 15:42:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Hadn't heard of WBAC
I'm sure your ears thank you ...
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-01-02 15:51:51 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 15:42:47 +0000
Post by Andy Burns
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Hadn't heard of WBAC
I'm sure your ears thank you ...
I realise now he meant webuyanycar. Which isn't actually true but I doubt
trades descriptions care much.

Recliner
2023-12-31 21:07:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 16:29:42 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 21:08:24 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I notice you left out CO2. All the stuff diesels chuck out would be gone in
a day if traffic stopped but the CO2 will be hanging around for thousands
of
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
years.
Surely even you must know that the ULEZ is aimed at improving London's
unacceptably unhealthy poor air quality? It's nothing to do with global
warming.
There's nothing poor about londons air quality compared to even 20 years ago.
Oh yes there is! That is the problem
If that was the case - and it isn't - then clearly the original ULEZ and LEZ
did bugger all so why bother expanding them?
How could the original ULEZ have improved London's air 20 years ago?
Theo
2023-12-30 21:38:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 30 Dec 2023 18:06:39 +0000 (GMT)
Post by Theo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards
(there wasn't a Euro 6a AFAICS)
So Euro 4 petrol and Euro 6 diesel both permit the same amount of NOx, which
is 40% the level of Euro 3 petrol and Euro 5 diesel. They both allow the
same levels of pollution, it's just that diesels only attained that standard
a decade later than petrol.
Diesels are just dirtier, in other words.
I notice you left out CO2. All the stuff diesels chuck out would be gone in
a day if traffic stopped but the CO2 will be hanging around for thousands of
years.
CO2 is not part of the Euro emissions standards.

CO2 emissions don't damage the respiratory health of people living near
traffic, which is what LEZ and ULEZ are designed to improve.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Also something never mentioned is at filling stations - the stink of petrol
is quite noticable compared to diesel and there must be a fair cloud of
volatiles drifting around most petrol stations and those volatiles can cause
smog.
Filling stations need to have vapour control, as too much vapour buildup and
they could go bang. There will be some petrol spilled by motorists filling
up, but it's relatively minor compared to other sources of VOCs like
aerosols.

Theo
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-31 16:12:32 UTC
Permalink
On 30 Dec 2023 21:38:34 +0000 (GMT)
Post by Theo
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 30 Dec 2023 18:06:39 +0000 (GMT)
Post by Theo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards
(there wasn't a Euro 6a AFAICS)
So Euro 4 petrol and Euro 6 diesel both permit the same amount of NOx, which
is 40% the level of Euro 3 petrol and Euro 5 diesel. They both allow the
same levels of pollution, it's just that diesels only attained that standard
a decade later than petrol.
Diesels are just dirtier, in other words.
I notice you left out CO2. All the stuff diesels chuck out would be gone in
a day if traffic stopped but the CO2 will be hanging around for thousands of
years.
CO2 is not part of the Euro emissions standards.
Umm, hello? Why do you think car companies are having to increasingly reduce
the CO2 output of their range?
Post by Theo
CO2 emissions don't damage the respiratory health of people living near
traffic, which is what LEZ and ULEZ are designed to improve.
No, they just fuck the entire climate to a point where granny getting asthma
will become an irrelevance.
Post by Theo
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Also something never mentioned is at filling stations - the stink of petrol
is quite noticable compared to diesel and there must be a fair cloud of
volatiles drifting around most petrol stations and those volatiles can cause
smog.
Filling stations need to have vapour control, as too much vapour buildup and
they could go bang. There will be some petrol spilled by motorists filling
up, but it's relatively minor compared to other sources of VOCs like
aerosols.
An open nozzle pumping a volatile fuel into an open hole is going to have
a load of emissions. I've driven a diesel for years but on occasion when I
use a petrol the stink that comes out when filling it up is almost overwhelming.
Roland Perry
2023-12-30 08:01:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Fri, 29 Dec 2023 10:07:29 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I did. And if a bus can be made Euro 6 compliant so can a car but we weren't
given that choice.
Again, your lack of engineering experience is showing.
Oh please. Most diesel cars with a new DPF and ad-blue system could easily
make Euro 6.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Unless its TfL spin and BS which is far more likely especially given
the crap that comes out the exhaust pipe of these old buses which
barely looks Euro anything compliant.
Which old buses?
Are you Roland or ChatGPT? There seems to be an odd disconnect in your
comprehension even between sections of the same post , never mind different
ones.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I'm not sure where you go the idea these were training buses.
From the article cited earler.
Who cares about some article FFS? I was talking about in service buses.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
They were both
in service buses on the 298 route based at Potters Bar garage.
In which case they'll be ULEZ compliant, whatever they "look like" to
you.
My car could also be made ULEZ compliant but I'm not given that option and
if blue smoke coming out of an exhaust is ULEZ compliant then clearly the
rules are more flexible than anyone realised.
I think I'm to avoid wasting any more time on this groundhog thread.
--
Roland Perry
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-30 09:50:06 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 08:01:37 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Fri, 29 Dec 2023 10:07:29 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I did. And if a bus can be made Euro 6 compliant so can a car but we weren't
given that choice.
Again, your lack of engineering experience is showing.
Oh please. Most diesel cars with a new DPF and ad-blue system could easily
make Euro 6.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Unless its TfL spin and BS which is far more likely especially given
the crap that comes out the exhaust pipe of these old buses which
barely looks Euro anything compliant.
Which old buses?
Are you Roland or ChatGPT? There seems to be an odd disconnect in your
comprehension even between sections of the same post , never mind different
ones.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I'm not sure where you go the idea these were training buses.
From the article cited earler.
Who cares about some article FFS? I was talking about in service buses.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
They were both
in service buses on the 298 route based at Potters Bar garage.
In which case they'll be ULEZ compliant, whatever they "look like" to
you.
My car could also be made ULEZ compliant but I'm not given that option and
if blue smoke coming out of an exhaust is ULEZ compliant then clearly the
rules are more flexible than anyone realised.
I think I'm to avoid wasting any more time on this groundhog thread.
As ever facts are not something you're comfortable with.
Roland Perry
2023-12-30 14:58:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Roland Perry
I think I'm to avoid wasting any more time on this groundhog thread.
As ever facts are not something you're comfortable with.
I'm quite comfortable with the facts, I've just grown tired of debunking
your tripe over and over again.
--
Roland Perry
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-30 17:45:21 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 14:58:01 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Roland Perry
I think I'm to avoid wasting any more time on this groundhog thread.
As ever facts are not something you're comfortable with.
I'm quite comfortable with the facts, I've just grown tired of debunking
your tripe over and over again.
When you actually manage to debunk anything I'll let you know.
Roland Perry
2023-12-31 02:13:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 14:58:01 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Roland Perry
I think I'm to avoid wasting any more time on this groundhog thread.
As ever facts are not something you're comfortable with.
I'm quite comfortable with the facts, I've just grown tired of debunking
your tripe over and over again.
When you actually manage to debunk anything I'll let you know.
I think you mis-typed "when my chatbot algorithm realises you've managed
to debunk anything..."

You've really excelled yourself over the Euro 6 thing, by the way.
--
Roland Perry
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-12-24 15:05:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 22:44:20 -0000
Post by D A Stocks
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
This afternoon I noticed 2 single deckers , one 2012 the other 2011 on a
london bus route. Last time I looked diesel vehicles older than 2016 had to
pay the charge. But I guess it doesn't apply for TfLs contractors, they can
pollute as much as they like no doubt and get paid to do it.
https://www.mylondon.news/news/how-london-buses-ulez-compliant-27421185
Given there was a very distinct haze coming out of the exhaust of one of them
the chances of it being emmisions compliant I suspect are pretty low.
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