Discussion:
Why Mr Cohen can't travel on LU
(too old to reply)
Recliner
2023-11-27 23:37:59 UTC
Permalink
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-jewish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/

It reminds me of a previous controversy in north London:

https://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/21369177.west-hampstead-eruv-gets-go-ahead/
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-11-28 09:38:33 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
Post by Recliner
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/
Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't pander to
delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking suspicion that
if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have bent over
backwards to accomodate them.
Post by Recliner
https://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/21369177.west-hampstead-eruv-gets-go-ahead/
I remember that, was a big fuss. You have to wonder if someones religious rules
are so inviolate that a bit of string allows them to to bypass them whether
they really believe in any of it in the first place or its just social
conforming to a ridiculous extent.
Recliner
2023-11-28 09:54:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
Post by Recliner
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/
Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't pander to
delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking suspicion that
if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have bent over
backwards to accomodate them.
What I don't get is why they can't some other rabbi to decide that as you
have to go outdoors to get between the foot tunnel and the museum, they
aren't under the same roof at all.
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
https://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/21369177.west-hampstead-eruv-gets-go-ahead/
I remember that, was a big fuss. You have to wonder if someones religious rules
are so inviolate that a bit of string allows them to to bypass them whether
they really believe in any of it in the first place or its just social
conforming to a ridiculous extent.
Yes, I came across other examples like that in Israel. Some scholar tries
to apply ancient religious rules to the modern world, with strange results,
and someone else comes up with an equally religious loophole.

The theory is that by following all these rules and loopholes, the
believers are constantly reminded of their god, and don'thave time to go
off sinning. They think that's better than Catholics who can commit lots of
sins six days a week, but it's all OK if they confess and atone on one day
a week.
Robin
2023-11-28 10:13:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
Post by Recliner
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/
Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't pander to
delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking suspicion that
if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have bent over
backwards to accomodate them.
What I don't get is why they can't some other rabbi to decide that as you
have to go outdoors to get between the foot tunnel and the museum, they
aren't under the same roof at all.
There used to be an exit from the subway which took you directly into
the entrance hall. It may well be that that is still in existence.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Graeme Wall
2023-11-28 10:17:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
Post by Recliner
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/
Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't pander to
delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking suspicion that
if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have bent over
backwards to accomodate them.
What I don't get is why they can't some other rabbi to decide that as you
have to go outdoors to get between the foot tunnel and the museum, they
aren't under the same roof at all.
There used to be an exit from the subway which took you directly into
the entrance hall.  It may well be that that is still in existence.
Somebody needs to point out to the rabbi that there are many entrances
to the UndergrounD that share premises with a wide variety of different
organisations, some of which may well contain human remains for any
number of reasons. He should go round and check each and every one of
them before allowing his flock to use the tube.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2023-11-28 10:35:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Somebody needs to point out to the rabbi that there are many entrances
to the UndergrounD that share premises with a wide variety of different
organisations, some of which may well contain human remains for any
number of reasons. He should go round and check each and every one of
them before allowing his flock to use the tube.
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).

Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
(although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
others to pay for his taxi).

As a bit of a Time-Lord geek, I've always wondered how that kind of
regime works if those folk are on a plane flying through different
timezones, even if they never set foot on soil where it was the Sabbath
in the local time.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2023-11-28 11:13:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Somebody needs to point out to the rabbi that there are many entrances
to the UndergrounD that share premises with a wide variety of different
organisations, some of which may well contain human remains for any
number of reasons. He should go round and check each and every one of
them before allowing his flock to use the tube.
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
No, they're not.
Post by Roland Perry
Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
(although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
others to pay for his taxi).
This isn't anything to do with observing the Sabbath.
Roland Perry
2023-11-28 12:02:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Somebody needs to point out to the rabbi that there are many entrances
to the UndergrounD that share premises with a wide variety of different
organisations, some of which may well contain human remains for any
number of reasons. He should go round and check each and every one of
them before allowing his flock to use the tube.
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
No, they're not.
They are still forbidden?
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
(although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
others to pay for his taxi).
This isn't anything to do with observing the Sabbath.
He claimed he wasn't allowed to handle money on the Sabbath.
--
Roland Perry
GB
2023-11-28 16:32:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
No, they're not.
They are still forbidden?
Absolutely.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
(although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
others to pay for his taxi).
This isn't anything to do with observing the Sabbath.
He claimed he wasn't allowed to handle money on the Sabbath.
He isn't allowed to handle money, and he isn't allowed to travel, so at
least he only did 1 out of 2.
Roland Perry
2023-11-28 16:42:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
No, they're not.
They are still forbidden?
Absolutely.
Are candles also forbidden, or is falling down the stairs in the middle
of the night a religious imperative
Post by GB
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
(although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
others to pay for his taxi).
This isn't anything to do with observing the Sabbath.
He claimed he wasn't allowed to handle money on the Sabbath.
He isn't allowed to handle money, and he isn't allowed to travel, so at
least he only did 1 out of 2.
New concept: not allowed to travel. Is house arrest on the Sabbeth a
thing?
--
Roland Perry
Bob
2023-11-28 17:16:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
No, they're not.
 They are still forbidden?
Absolutely.
Are candles also forbidden, or is falling down the stairs in the middle
of the night a religious imperative
The rule, formally, is against making fire. As electrical switches can
cause small sparks in their operation, they are interpreted as falling
under the category of "making fire". A candle is, more obviously, making
fire, so is definitely forbidden. An automatic system that works without
any manual intervention is fine, though, both timer activated lights or
lights activated by motion sensors are fine.

Robin
Robin
2023-11-28 17:53:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
No, they're not.
 They are still forbidden?
Absolutely.
Are candles also forbidden, or is falling down the stairs in the
middle of the night a religious imperative
The rule, formally, is against making fire. As electrical switches can
cause small sparks in their operation, they are interpreted as falling
under the category of "making fire". A candle is, more obviously, making
fire, so is definitely forbidden. An automatic system that works without
any manual intervention is fine, though, both timer activated lights or
lights activated by motion sensors are fine.
Motion sensors are most definitely /not/ an acceptable as a means
activation among the strict orthodox. They also reject PIR detectors to
operate pedestrian lights for road crossings leading to some operating
every 90 seconds from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday - even in the
middle of the night. I speak as a London driver who has sat at them.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Bob
2023-11-29 07:42:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin
Post by Bob
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
No, they're not.
 They are still forbidden?
Absolutely.
Are candles also forbidden, or is falling down the stairs in the
middle of the night a religious imperative
The rule, formally, is against making fire. As electrical switches can
cause small sparks in their operation, they are interpreted as falling
under the category of "making fire". A candle is, more obviously,
making fire, so is definitely forbidden. An automatic system that
works without any manual intervention is fine, though, both timer
activated lights or lights activated by motion sensors are fine.
Motion sensors are most definitely /not/ an acceptable as a means
activation among the strict orthodox.  They also reject PIR detectors to
operate pedestrian lights for road crossings leading to some operating
every 90 seconds from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday - even in the
middle of the night.  I speak as a London driver who has sat at them.
I was obviously misinformed on these cases. I had read/been told at some
point in the past that sensors that did not require physical
interactions were OK. None of the Jewish people I have known personally
have taken the rules seriously enough to adhere to them to this extent,
so my knowledge is 3rd hand.

Robin
Roland Perry
2023-11-29 08:33:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Robin
Post by Bob
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use
money on the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles
"technology" (although apparently light switches and so on have
somehow become exempt).
No, they're not.
 They are still forbidden?
Absolutely.
Are candles also forbidden, or is falling down the stairs in the
middle of the night a religious imperative
The rule, formally, is against making fire. As electrical switches
can cause small sparks in their operation, they are interpreted as
falling under the category of "making fire". A candle is, more
obviously, making fire, so is definitely forbidden. An automatic
system that works without any manual intervention is fine, though,
both timer activated lights or lights activated by motion sensors are fine.
Motion sensors are most definitely /not/ an acceptable as a means
activation among the strict orthodox.  They also reject PIR detectors
to operate pedestrian lights for road crossings leading to some
operating every 90 seconds from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday -
even in the middle of the night.  I speak as a London driver who has
sat at them.
I was obviously misinformed on these cases. I had read/been told at
some point in the past that sensors that did not require physical
interactions were OK. None of the Jewish people I have known personally
have taken the rules seriously enough to adhere to them to this extent,
so my knowledge is 3rd hand.
Some take the rules extremely seriously.

I remember picking up a relative from Manchester airport perhaps 15yrs
ago, and there were numerous recently-landed Orthodox Jews waiting
outside for their lifts, wearing top-hats wrapped inside supermarket
carrier bags because it was raining.

I don't criticise for them following their religion, but I also don't
fear to point out what lengths it sometimes goes to.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2023-11-29 08:59:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Bob
Post by Robin
Post by Bob
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use
money on the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles
"technology" (although apparently light switches and so on have
somehow become exempt).
No, they're not.
 They are still forbidden?
Absolutely.
Are candles also forbidden, or is falling down the stairs in the
middle of the night a religious imperative
The rule, formally, is against making fire. As electrical switches
can cause small sparks in their operation, they are interpreted as
falling under the category of "making fire". A candle is, more
obviously, making fire, so is definitely forbidden. An automatic
system that works without any manual intervention is fine, though,
both timer activated lights or lights activated by motion sensors are fine.
Motion sensors are most definitely /not/ an acceptable as a means
activation among the strict orthodox.  They also reject PIR detectors
to operate pedestrian lights for road crossings leading to some
operating every 90 seconds from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday -
even in the middle of the night.  I speak as a London driver who has
sat at them.
I was obviously misinformed on these cases. I had read/been told at
some point in the past that sensors that did not require physical
interactions were OK. None of the Jewish people I have known personally
have taken the rules seriously enough to adhere to them to this extent,
so my knowledge is 3rd hand.
Some take the rules extremely seriously.
I remember picking up a relative from Manchester airport perhaps 15yrs
ago, and there were numerous recently-landed Orthodox Jews waiting
outside for their lifts, wearing top-hats wrapped inside supermarket
carrier bags because it was raining.
I don't criticise for them following their religion, but I also don't
fear to point out what lengths it sometimes goes to.
Those are Hasidic Jews, who still wear outfits that are similar to the
style Polish nobility wore in the 18th century, when Hasidic Judaism began.
So it's more of a cultural than a religious thing.

Most orthodox Jews don't dress that way, but all observant, Orthodox Jews
cover their heads (the women usually wear wigs, scarves or hats). So if you
see a Jew wearing a kippah when not attending a religious service, it is a
strong indication that they are also kosher, and probably follow the
Shabbat rules fairly strictly. There may not be anything else about their
appearance that marks them out as orthodox Jews.
GB
2023-11-30 11:22:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin
Motion sensors are most definitely /not/ an acceptable as a means
activation among the strict orthodox.
That's correct. Nor, is it allowed to tell Alexa to turn the light on.

There's nothing to stop the orthodox leaving a light on overnight if
there's a need. And there's nothing wrong with using a timer.

If, for some reason the stairs are not lit, there's an overriding rule
that says it's okay to switch the light on, rather than risk life and
limb. However, there's no similar overriding rule that says it's okay to
switch the light off again.
Post by Robin
They also reject PIR detectors to
operate pedestrian lights for road crossings leading to some operating
every 90 seconds from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday - even in the
middle of the night.  I speak as a London driver who has sat at them.
My apologies, on behalf of my more orthodox brethren, for the
unnecessary inconvenience caused. That's partly poor traffic light
programming, as there's probably no need to have the lights operating
overnight anyway.
Andy Burns
2023-11-30 12:34:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by GB
There's nothing to stop the orthodox leaving a light on overnight if
there's a need.
I've heard of some lights which have a shutter instead of a switch, so
you can leave it turned on, and then open/close the shutter as required
on the sabbath ...
Bob
2023-12-01 08:10:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by GB
There's nothing to stop the orthodox leaving a light on overnight if
there's a need.
I've heard of some lights which have a shutter instead of a switch, so
you can leave it turned on, and then open/close the shutter as required
on the sabbath ...
If that is allowed, it raises the prospect of something like dimmer
switch that varies the brightness of a light from imperceptibly dim to
full brightness, without it ever being fully off. It would meet the
technical requirement of not turning something on or off, while
funcionally achieving exactly that (which seems to be the way these
things are being treated).

Robin
Graeme Wall
2023-12-01 09:18:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Andy Burns
Post by GB
There's nothing to stop the orthodox leaving a light on overnight if
there's a need.
I've heard of some lights which have a shutter instead of a switch, so
you can leave it turned on, and then open/close the shutter as
required on the sabbath ...
If that is allowed, it raises the prospect of something like dimmer
switch that varies the brightness of a light from imperceptibly dim to
full brightness, without it ever being fully off. It would meet the
technical requirement of not turning something on or off, while
funcionally achieving exactly that (which seems to be the way these
things are being treated).
If one is reduced to that sort of nit-picking to avoid the consequences
of one's religious beliefs, I can't see that one's dedication to the
religion is that sincere.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Recliner
2023-12-01 09:53:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Bob
Post by Andy Burns
Post by GB
There's nothing to stop the orthodox leaving a light on overnight if
there's a need.
I've heard of some lights which have a shutter instead of a switch, so
you can leave it turned on, and then open/close the shutter as
required on the sabbath ...
If that is allowed, it raises the prospect of something like dimmer
switch that varies the brightness of a light from imperceptibly dim to
full brightness, without it ever being fully off. It would meet the
technical requirement of not turning something on or off, while
funcionally achieving exactly that (which seems to be the way these
things are being treated).
If one is reduced to that sort of nit-picking to avoid the consequences
of one's religious beliefs, I can't see that one's dedication to the
religion is that sincere.
It's just an intellectual exercise to demonstrate their total commitment:
devise and memorise a series of complicated, silly rules, then come up with
clever workarounds.

I came across another example at the Golan Heights winery. Wine is a
fundamentally kosher product, but to get the rabbinical seal of approval
(without which no kosher establishment could purchase it), no-one who isn't
a sufficiently orthodox Jew can have any contact with it during the
production process. Most large hotels, and many restaurants, in Israel are
kosher, so that seal of approval is essential.

The winery was owned by a Californian wine maker, who was a liberal Jew,
and therefore not allowed to be physically involved with the production. So
he had to create an inner, glass-walled zone where all the production
happened, and where only Orthodox Jews could step, and an outer zone for
anyone else. Those Orthodox Jewish workers knew nothing about wine
production, so he had to teach them everything, and direct the process,
without entering the production zone himself.
Certes
2023-12-01 10:44:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Bob
Post by Andy Burns
Post by GB
There's nothing to stop the orthodox leaving a light on overnight if
there's a need.
I've heard of some lights which have a shutter instead of a switch, so
you can leave it turned on, and then open/close the shutter as
required on the sabbath ...
If that is allowed, it raises the prospect of something like dimmer
switch that varies the brightness of a light from imperceptibly dim to
full brightness, without it ever being fully off. It would meet the
technical requirement of not turning something on or off, while
funcionally achieving exactly that (which seems to be the way these
things are being treated).
If one is reduced to that sort of nit-picking to avoid the consequences
of one's religious beliefs, I can't see that one's dedication to the
religion is that sincere.
devise and memorise a series of complicated, silly rules, then come up with
clever workarounds.
I came across another example at the Golan Heights winery. Wine is a
fundamentally kosher product, but to get the rabbinical seal of approval
(without which no kosher establishment could purchase it), no-one who isn't
a sufficiently orthodox Jew can have any contact with it during the
production process. Most large hotels, and many restaurants, in Israel are
kosher, so that seal of approval is essential.
The winery was owned by a Californian wine maker, who was a liberal Jew,
and therefore not allowed to be physically involved with the production. So
he had to create an inner, glass-walled zone where all the production
happened, and where only Orthodox Jews could step, and an outer zone for
anyone else. Those Orthodox Jewish workers knew nothing about wine
production, so he had to teach them everything, and direct the process,
without entering the production zone himself.
Do they still have the system where each restaurant must be either meat-
free or dairy-free, because the two must not be mixed? When eating out
in Israel, it was normal to order just the main course in a dairy-free
restaurant then move next door for a creamy but vegetarian dessert.
Recliner
2023-12-01 11:05:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Certes
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Bob
Post by Andy Burns
Post by GB
There's nothing to stop the orthodox leaving a light on overnight if
there's a need.
I've heard of some lights which have a shutter instead of a switch, so
you can leave it turned on, and then open/close the shutter as
required on the sabbath ...
If that is allowed, it raises the prospect of something like dimmer
switch that varies the brightness of a light from imperceptibly dim to
full brightness, without it ever being fully off. It would meet the
technical requirement of not turning something on or off, while
funcionally achieving exactly that (which seems to be the way these
things are being treated).
If one is reduced to that sort of nit-picking to avoid the consequences
of one's religious beliefs, I can't see that one's dedication to the
religion is that sincere.
devise and memorise a series of complicated, silly rules, then come up with
clever workarounds.
I came across another example at the Golan Heights winery. Wine is a
fundamentally kosher product, but to get the rabbinical seal of approval
(without which no kosher establishment could purchase it), no-one who isn't
a sufficiently orthodox Jew can have any contact with it during the
production process. Most large hotels, and many restaurants, in Israel are
kosher, so that seal of approval is essential.
The winery was owned by a Californian wine maker, who was a liberal Jew,
and therefore not allowed to be physically involved with the production. So
he had to create an inner, glass-walled zone where all the production
happened, and where only Orthodox Jews could step, and an outer zone for
anyone else. Those Orthodox Jewish workers knew nothing about wine
production, so he had to teach them everything, and direct the process,
without entering the production zone himself.
Do they still have the system where each restaurant must be either meat-
free or dairy-free, because the two must not be mixed?
Absolutely — that's one of the cardinal principles of kosher food. In
orthodox households, they have to have completely duplicated dishes,
utensils, cupboards, plates, etc, so that there's no possibility of mixing
meat and dairy ingredients.
Post by Certes
When eating out
in Israel, it was normal to order just the main course in a dairy-free
restaurant then move next door for a creamy but vegetarian dessert.
Yup. The silly thing is that the meat restaurant probably offers things
like dairy-free icecream and cakes, and the vegetarian restaurant will have
pretend-meat main courses.
Sam Wilson
2023-12-01 12:12:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Certes
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Bob
Post by Andy Burns
Post by GB
There's nothing to stop the orthodox leaving a light on overnight if
there's a need.
I've heard of some lights which have a shutter instead of a switch, so
you can leave it turned on, and then open/close the shutter as
required on the sabbath ...
If that is allowed, it raises the prospect of something like dimmer
switch that varies the brightness of a light from imperceptibly dim to
full brightness, without it ever being fully off. It would meet the
technical requirement of not turning something on or off, while
funcionally achieving exactly that (which seems to be the way these
things are being treated).
If one is reduced to that sort of nit-picking to avoid the consequences
of one's religious beliefs, I can't see that one's dedication to the
religion is that sincere.
devise and memorise a series of complicated, silly rules, then come up with
clever workarounds.
I came across another example at the Golan Heights winery. Wine is a
fundamentally kosher product, but to get the rabbinical seal of approval
(without which no kosher establishment could purchase it), no-one who isn't
a sufficiently orthodox Jew can have any contact with it during the
production process. Most large hotels, and many restaurants, in Israel are
kosher, so that seal of approval is essential.
The winery was owned by a Californian wine maker, who was a liberal Jew,
and therefore not allowed to be physically involved with the production. So
he had to create an inner, glass-walled zone where all the production
happened, and where only Orthodox Jews could step, and an outer zone for
anyone else. Those Orthodox Jewish workers knew nothing about wine
production, so he had to teach them everything, and direct the process,
without entering the production zone himself.
Do they still have the system where each restaurant must be either meat-
free or dairy-free, because the two must not be mixed?
Absolutely — that's one of the cardinal principles of kosher food. In
orthodox households, they have to have completely duplicated dishes,
utensils, cupboards, plates, etc, so that there's no possibility of mixing
meat and dairy ingredients.
An observant Jewish household I know has 4 sets of crockery and cutlery to
cover all occasions during the year.
Post by Recliner
Post by Certes
When eating out
in Israel, it was normal to order just the main course in a dairy-free
restaurant then move next door for a creamy but vegetarian dessert.
Yup. The silly thing is that the meat restaurant probably offers things
like dairy-free icecream and cakes, and the vegetarian restaurant will have
pretend-meat main courses.
I’d noticed this phenomenon when dining out with (almost non-observant)
Jewish Israelis but I hadn’t clocked the reason. There’s clearly a
cultural hangover there. I also wondered if the lack of washing up liquid
and, indeed, washing up bowls was also some kind of cultural hangover; the
people I know always wash up under running water with thick, sticky soapy
stuff. I wondered aloud whether it was a regional thing, given that
Muslims also tend to wash in running water whenever possible, but they
hadn’t thought about it that way.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
GB
2023-12-01 15:01:32 UTC
Permalink
I'm fascinated by this thread, with a load of train nerds scoffing at
other people's religious eccentricities. Pot, kettle, etc.
Sam Wilson
2023-12-01 16:20:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by GB
I'm fascinated by this thread, with a load of train nerds scoffing at
other people's religious eccentricities. Pot, kettle, etc.
[Hand goes up at the back of the class] Please, sir, I’m not scoffing.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Blueshirt
2023-12-01 19:42:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by GB
I'm fascinated by this thread, with a load of train nerds scoffing at
other people's religious eccentricities. Pot, kettle, etc.
Train nerds? Here? <looks around> Nope, ain't nobody here but us chickens!
Graeme Wall
2023-12-01 15:48:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Certes
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Bob
Post by Andy Burns
Post by GB
There's nothing to stop the orthodox leaving a light on overnight if
there's a need.
I've heard of some lights which have a shutter instead of a switch, so
you can leave it turned on, and then open/close the shutter as
required on the sabbath ...
If that is allowed, it raises the prospect of something like dimmer
switch that varies the brightness of a light from imperceptibly dim to
full brightness, without it ever being fully off. It would meet the
technical requirement of not turning something on or off, while
funcionally achieving exactly that (which seems to be the way these
things are being treated).
If one is reduced to that sort of nit-picking to avoid the consequences
of one's religious beliefs, I can't see that one's dedication to the
religion is that sincere.
devise and memorise a series of complicated, silly rules, then come up with
clever workarounds.
I came across another example at the Golan Heights winery. Wine is a
fundamentally kosher product, but to get the rabbinical seal of approval
(without which no kosher establishment could purchase it), no-one who isn't
a sufficiently orthodox Jew can have any contact with it during the
production process. Most large hotels, and many restaurants, in Israel are
kosher, so that seal of approval is essential.
The winery was owned by a Californian wine maker, who was a liberal Jew,
and therefore not allowed to be physically involved with the
production. So
he had to create an inner, glass-walled zone where all the production
happened, and where only Orthodox Jews could step, and an outer zone for
anyone else. Those Orthodox Jewish workers knew nothing about wine
production, so he had to teach them everything, and direct the process,
without entering the production zone himself.
Do they still have the system where each restaurant must be either meat-
free or dairy-free, because the two must not be mixed?  When eating out
in Israel, it was normal to order just the main course in a dairy-free
restaurant then move next door for a creamy but vegetarian dessert.
Well, that's half of French cuisine out the window then.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Recliner
2023-11-29 00:12:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
No, they're not.
 They are still forbidden?
Absolutely.
Are candles also forbidden, or is falling down the stairs in the middle
of the night a religious imperative
The rule, formally, is against making fire. As electrical switches can
cause small sparks in their operation, they are interpreted as falling
under the category of "making fire". A candle is, more obviously, making
fire, so is definitely forbidden. An automatic system that works without
any manual intervention is fine, though, both timer activated lights or
lights activated by motion sensors are fine.
Does the timer have to be set before the start of the Sabbath? Or could a
purely mechanical timer be started at bed time on Friday night, that would
switch off the lights in about 10 minutes?

Of course, these are really philosophical questions. They come up with
bizarre interpretations of ancient rules that made good sense at the time,
then come up with strange workarounds for the strange rules they've
devised.

For example, the Sabbath was really just a perfectly sensible,
ahead-of-its-time HR policy: everyone got a guaranteed day off from work
each week. The unions insisted on a definition of the 'work' that shouldn't
be performed on the day off, much as modern trade unions do. Of course, the
definition related to the work performed in biblical times. Similarly the
diet rules made sense in a hot climate without refrigeration: avoid foods
that go off quickly, and could become toxic.

And now we end up with a confusing mishmash of silly modern interpretations
that are completely unrelated to the well-meaning original intent. Most
modern Jews don't pay them much attention, but an ultra-orthodox minority
become obsessed with the petty, modern interpretations of the simple,
sensible original rules.

They then devise symbolic loopholes like eruvs, auto-timers, stopping
lifts, Sabbath mode on appliances or the ugly, pointless appendage on the
museum. As the rules can be suspended anyway in life-threatening
situations, why not hand out derogations more readily, as with UK rolling
stock?
Sam Wilson
2023-11-29 18:40:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
No, they're not.
 They are still forbidden?
Absolutely.
Are candles also forbidden, or is falling down the stairs in the middle
of the night a religious imperative
The rule, formally, is against making fire. As electrical switches can
cause small sparks in their operation, they are interpreted as falling
under the category of "making fire". A candle is, more obviously, making
fire, so is definitely forbidden. An automatic system that works without
any manual intervention is fine, though, both timer activated lights or
lights activated by motion sensors are fine.
I think I remember a discussion in another place (Mark G may remember it as
well) where it was said that the turning on of a light switch was forbidden
but turning it off was not. Some Jewish people would enlist gentile
friends to turn their lights on on the evening of the Sabbath, but were
content to turn them off themselves. I wondered aloud if anyone had
considered the fact that turning a switch off was much more likely to draw
a spark internally then switching it on, but no one had an answer.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Recliner
2023-11-29 20:35:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Bob
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
No, they're not.
 They are still forbidden?
Absolutely.
Are candles also forbidden, or is falling down the stairs in the middle
of the night a religious imperative
The rule, formally, is against making fire. As electrical switches can
cause small sparks in their operation, they are interpreted as falling
under the category of "making fire". A candle is, more obviously, making
fire, so is definitely forbidden. An automatic system that works without
any manual intervention is fine, though, both timer activated lights or
lights activated by motion sensors are fine.
I think I remember a discussion in another place (Mark G may remember it as
well) where it was said that the turning on of a light switch was forbidden
but turning it off was not. Some Jewish people would enlist gentile
friends to turn their lights on on the evening of the Sabbath, but were
content to turn them off themselves. I wondered aloud if anyone had
considered the fact that turning a switch off was much more likely to draw
a spark internally then switching it on, but no one had an answer.
The logic may be based on not being allowed to work, or causing others to
work, on the day of rest (Shabbat). So, turning on a light is causing work
to be done, and forbidden, but turning it off is actually helping to
enforce the Shabbatt.

The prohibition on handling money may similarly be based on not paying
others to do work on the Shabbatt.
Recliner
2023-11-28 18:05:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
No, they're not.
They are still forbidden?
Absolutely.
Are candles also forbidden, or is falling down the stairs in the middle
of the night a religious imperative
Post by GB
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
(although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
others to pay for his taxi).
This isn't anything to do with observing the Sabbath.
He claimed he wasn't allowed to handle money on the Sabbath.
He isn't allowed to handle money, and he isn't allowed to travel, so at
least he only did 1 out of 2.
New concept: not allowed to travel. Is house arrest on the Sabbeth a
thing?
They're not allowed to travel on mechanised vehicles on the the Sabbath,
but that's nothing to do with this story.
Roland Perry
2023-11-28 18:20:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
No, they're not.
They are still forbidden?
Absolutely.
Are candles also forbidden, or is falling down the stairs in the middle
of the night a religious imperative
Post by GB
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
(although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
others to pay for his taxi).
This isn't anything to do with observing the Sabbath.
He claimed he wasn't allowed to handle money on the Sabbath.
He isn't allowed to handle money, and he isn't allowed to travel, so at
least he only did 1 out of 2.
New concept: not allowed to travel. Is house arrest on the Sabbeth a
thing?
They're not allowed to travel on mechanised vehicles on the the Sabbath,
but that's nothing to do with this story.
Despite my strict friend agreeing that if someone else paid for the
mechanised vehicle, it was OK?
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2023-11-28 22:13:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
No, they're not.
They are still forbidden?
Absolutely.
Are candles also forbidden, or is falling down the stairs in the middle
of the night a religious imperative
Post by GB
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
(although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
others to pay for his taxi).
This isn't anything to do with observing the Sabbath.
He claimed he wasn't allowed to handle money on the Sabbath.
He isn't allowed to handle money, and he isn't allowed to travel, so at
least he only did 1 out of 2.
New concept: not allowed to travel. Is house arrest on the Sabbeth a
thing?
They're not allowed to travel on mechanised vehicles on the the Sabbath,
but that's nothing to do with this story.
Despite my strict friend agreeing that if someone else paid for the
mechanised vehicle, it was OK?
It is not OK for an orthodox, observant Jew to travel by car, bus, train or
plane on the Shabbat. In Jerusalem, cars are likely to be stoned if they
try to drive through ultra-orthodox areas.

Of course, some are more diligent than others at observing the many rules.
For example, plenty of Jews drive to the synagogue on Saturday, but park
out of sight, and walk the last couple of hundred yards.

But, again, this story has absolutely nothing to do with Shabbat rules.
Certes
2023-11-28 11:17:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Somebody needs to point out to the rabbi that there are many entrances
to the UndergrounD that share premises with a wide variety of
different organisations, some of which may well contain human remains
for any number of reasons. He should go round and check each and every
one of them before allowing his flock to use the tube.
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
(although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
others to pay for his taxi).
As a bit of a Time-Lord geek, I've always wondered how that kind of
regime works if those folk are on a plane flying through different
timezones, even if they never set foot on soil where it was the Sabbath
in the local time.
They would probably need to be over the Pacific, taking off in daylight
on Friday evening and landing in darkness on Saturday evening having
crossed the date line westwards. I believe they'd have to sit back and
relax for either the dark bit before crossing the line or the light bit
after crossing it, which might be quite brief.

Another interesting case is a very fast plane[1] or an arctic route to
see the sun set, rise and set again on Friday or Saturday evening.

[1] probably military, since the demise of Concorde
Recliner
2023-11-28 11:26:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Certes
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Somebody needs to point out to the rabbi that there are many entrances
to the UndergrounD that share premises with a wide variety of
different organisations, some of which may well contain human remains
for any number of reasons. He should go round and check each and every
one of them before allowing his flock to use the tube.
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
(although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
others to pay for his taxi).
As a bit of a Time-Lord geek, I've always wondered how that kind of
regime works if those folk are on a plane flying through different
timezones, even if they never set foot on soil where it was the Sabbath
in the local time.
They would probably need to be over the Pacific, taking off in daylight
on Friday evening and landing in darkness on Saturday evening having
crossed the date line westwards. I believe they'd have to sit back and
relax for either the dark bit before crossing the line or the light bit
after crossing it, which might be quite brief.
Another interesting case is a very fast plane[1] or an arctic route to
see the sun set, rise and set again on Friday or Saturday evening.
[1] probably military, since the demise of Concorde
I would have thought that travelling on a plane at all wasn't allowed on
the Sabbath. Similarly, most of the airport experiences probably break the
rules. Of course, exceptions can be granted if necessary:

https://www.thejc.com/news/el-al-breaks-shabbat-flight-ban-for-first-time-in-40-years-to-bring-troops-to-israel-d0zys72u

This ban on El Al flying on the Sabbath is controversial, because many
Israelis would be happy to fly on the Sabbath, and the airline would like
its planes to be earning money seven days a week.
Scott
2023-11-28 12:58:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Somebody needs to point out to the rabbi that there are many entrances
to the UndergrounD that share premises with a wide variety of different
organisations, some of which may well contain human remains for any
number of reasons. He should go round and check each and every one of
them before allowing his flock to use the tube.
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
(although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
others to pay for his taxi).
Use an Oyster card. Top it up on a Friday. Sorted :-)
Roland Perry
2023-11-28 13:10:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Somebody needs to point out to the rabbi that there are many entrances
to the UndergrounD that share premises with a wide variety of different
organisations, some of which may well contain human remains for any
number of reasons. He should go round and check each and every one of
them before allowing his flock to use the tube.
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
(although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
others to pay for his taxi).
Use an Oyster card. Top it up on a Friday. Sorted :-)
That's a potentially wonderful loophole, Oyster Cards famously not being
money, because TfL would need to register as a Bank. But what would the
Old Testament say about it?

ps The Taxi was in Cambridge, which 40yrs later still isn't in the
Oyster Zones.
--
Roland Perry
Marland
2023-11-28 16:30:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Scott
Use an Oyster card. Top it up on a Friday. Sorted :-)
That's a potentially wonderful loophole, Oyster Cards famously not being
money, because TfL would need to register as a Bank. But what would the
Old Testament say about it?
ps The Taxi was in Cambridge, which 40yrs later still isn't in the
Oyster Zones.
Probably not allowed because Oysters are not Kosher.

GH
Graeme Wall
2023-11-28 17:30:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Somebody needs to point out to the rabbi that there are many entrances
to the UndergrounD that share premises with a wide variety of different
organisations, some of which may well contain human remains for any
number of reasons. He should go round and check each and every one of
them before allowing his flock to use the tube.
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
(although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
others to pay for his taxi).
Use an Oyster card.  Top it up on a Friday.  Sorted :-)
That's a potentially wonderful loophole, Oyster Cards famously not being
money, because TfL would need to register as a Bank. But what would the
Old Testament say about it?
Did Moses have a credit card?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Certes
2023-11-28 18:31:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Somebody needs to point out to the rabbi that there are many entrances
to the UndergrounD that share premises with a wide variety of different
organisations, some of which may well contain human remains for any
number of reasons. He should go round and check each and every one of
them before allowing his flock to use the tube.
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
(although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
others to pay for his taxi).
Use an Oyster card.  Top it up on a Friday.  Sorted :-)
That's a potentially wonderful loophole, Oyster Cards famously not
being money, because TfL would need to register as a Bank. But what
would the Old Testament say about it?
Did Moses have a credit card?
He certainly had a tablet.
Charles Ellson
2023-11-30 06:38:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Certes
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Somebody needs to point out to the rabbi that there are many entrances
to the UndergrounD that share premises with a wide variety of different
organisations, some of which may well contain human remains for any
number of reasons. He should go round and check each and every one of
them before allowing his flock to use the tube.
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
(although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
others to pay for his taxi).
Use an Oyster card.  Top it up on a Friday.  Sorted :-)
That's a potentially wonderful loophole, Oyster Cards famously not
being money, because TfL would need to register as a Bank. But what
would the Old Testament say about it?
Did Moses have a credit card?
He certainly had a tablet.
... and a motorbike whose roar was heard throughout Isreal.
Graeme Wall
2023-11-28 17:29:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Somebody needs to point out to the rabbi that there are many entrances
to the UndergrounD that share premises with a wide variety of different
organisations, some of which may well contain human remains for any
number of reasons. He should go round and check each and every one of
them before allowing his flock to use the tube.
My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
(although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
others to pay for his taxi).
Use an Oyster card. Top it up on a Friday. Sorted :-)
Still using money, no different to using a credit/debit card.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
GB
2023-11-28 16:37:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
As a bit of a Time-Lord geek, I've always wondered how that kind of
regime works if those folk are on a plane flying through different
timezones, even if they never set foot on soil where it was the Sabbath
in the local time.
There's no particular problem about prolonged sea voyages which might
last several months.

As far as planes are concerned, an observant Jew wouldn't usually board
one unless he'd be at his destination well before the sabbath started.
So, your theoretical problem wouldn't arise.
Recliner
2023-11-28 10:30:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
Post by Recliner
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/
Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't pander to
delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking suspicion that
if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have bent over
backwards to accomodate them.
What I don't get is why they can't some other rabbi to decide that as you
have to go outdoors to get between the foot tunnel and the museum, they
aren't under the same roof at all.
There used to be an exit from the subway which took you directly into
the entrance hall. It may well be that that is still in existence.
I don't think that's the issue. If it were, then their proposed solution
wouldn't be acceptable.

I wonder if something as simple as an extended railing on the steps, that
forced people and ghosts to step away from the building when moving between
the subway and museum entrance, would satisfy them? That's all that the
ugly steel sheet would do. Or perhaps the idea is to stop any ghosts being
able to see the subway entrance as they peer out of the museum entrance?
Robin
2023-11-28 11:33:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
Post by Recliner
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/
Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't pander to
delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking suspicion that
if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have bent over
backwards to accomodate them.
What I don't get is why they can't some other rabbi to decide that as you
have to go outdoors to get between the foot tunnel and the museum, they
aren't under the same roof at all.
There used to be an exit from the subway which took you directly into
the entrance hall. It may well be that that is still in existence.
I don't think that's the issue. If it were, then their proposed solution
wouldn't be acceptable.
I'll gladly defer to your understanding of the halakha. I gave up even
trying many moons ago and took at face value their assertion that the
outside archway would break up "the one roof phenomenon". I would
however offer the possibility that the archway has effect (in Jewish
law) below the level of the pavement so as to sever the connection in
the subway which does continue into the Science Museum.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Recliner
2023-11-28 11:45:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
Post by Recliner
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/
Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't pander to
delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking suspicion that
if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have bent over
backwards to accomodate them.
What I don't get is why they can't some other rabbi to decide that as you
have to go outdoors to get between the foot tunnel and the museum, they
aren't under the same roof at all.
There used to be an exit from the subway which took you directly into
the entrance hall. It may well be that that is still in existence.
I don't think that's the issue. If it were, then their proposed solution
wouldn't be acceptable.
I'll gladly defer to your understanding of the halakha. I gave up even
trying many moons ago and took at face value their assertion that the
outside archway would break up "the one roof phenomenon". I would
however offer the possibility that the archway has effect (in Jewish
law) below the level of the pavement so as to sever the connection in
the subway which does continue into the Science Museum.
The black sheet steel between the two entrances is apparently important;
the unobtrusive archway alone isn't enough. So it must represent a wall
that extends beyond the slightly overhanging roof above, so there's no
unbroken path between the two entrances under the roof.

It seems people here aren't familiar how far the Sabbath rules go (though
this issue is nothing to do with the Sabbath). This piece gives a flavour:

https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/501/the-travelers-halachic-guide-to-hotels/

I first came across on a visit Jerusalem. I was going down to dinner, and
went to the lifts. I saw a group of people clustered around the far lift,
but the lift call light wasn't lit up. So I pressed the button, the lift
duly arrived, and the group all rushed across to join me. I duly pressed
the lift button to go the ground floor, and we travelled non-stop. Later, I
discovered that they weren't allowed to press the lift button, but were
waiting for the stopping lift that runs on the Sabbath. But once I'd
pressed the button, tgey were free to join me.
Bob
2023-11-28 17:11:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
Post by Recliner
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/
Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't pander to
delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking suspicion that
if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have bent over
backwards to accomodate them.
What I don't get is why they can't some other rabbi to decide that as you
have to go outdoors to get between the foot tunnel and the museum, they
aren't under the same roof at all.
There used to be an exit from the subway which took you directly into
the entrance hall. It may well be that that is still in existence.
I don't think that's the issue. If it were, then their proposed solution
wouldn't be acceptable.
I'll gladly defer to your understanding of the halakha. I gave up even
trying many moons ago and took at face value their assertion that the
outside archway would break up "the one roof phenomenon". I would
however offer the possibility that the archway has effect (in Jewish
law) below the level of the pavement so as to sever the connection in
the subway which does continue into the Science Museum.
The black sheet steel between the two entrances is apparently important;
the unobtrusive archway alone isn't enough. So it must represent a wall
that extends beyond the slightly overhanging roof above, so there's no
unbroken path between the two entrances under the roof.
It seems people here aren't familiar how far the Sabbath rules go (though
https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/501/the-travelers-halachic-guide-to-hotels/
I first came across on a visit Jerusalem. I was going down to dinner, and
went to the lifts. I saw a group of people clustered around the far lift,
but the lift call light wasn't lit up. So I pressed the button, the lift
duly arrived, and the group all rushed across to join me. I duly pressed
the lift button to go the ground floor, and we travelled non-stop. Later, I
discovered that they weren't allowed to press the lift button, but were
waiting for the stopping lift that runs on the Sabbath. But once I'd
pressed the button, tgey were free to join me.
Making electrical circuits manually is forbidden. This means things like
lightswitches, lift call buttons and pedestrian crossing buttons are not
allowed. There is even an issue with refrigerator lights. Something that
happens independently of a person's actions can be utilised, though, and
an automatic system that was set in progress beforehand is fine. Hence
lights on a timer are OK, and a lift that endlessly runs stopping on
every floor is OK. Some fridges come with Sabbath mode where the
internal light is disabled on a timer.

The rules on getting assistance also pose peculiarities. If a gentile
does something of their own free will, it is totally fine to make use of
that. So in the lift example, because you wanted to go to the ground
floor yourself, it was fine for them to come along for the ride. It is
not, however, acceptable to ask for help. Askign someone to do something
forbidden is regarded as the same as doing it yourself. This led to the
odd concept of the Shabbos Goy, a gentile aquaintance who comes around
on the Sabbath and helps out by doing forbidden tasks. As it is
forbidden to both pay for the help and to directly ask for it, there
ensues an odd process of passing remarks about how it would be nice is
some task or other happened to be done (without actually asking for it
to be done), and of having a sum of money sitting in a place where the
goy might find it and take it away, with no explicit statement that it
is payment.

Robin
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-11-28 17:14:07 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 18:11:38 +0100
Post by Bob
Making electrical circuits manually is forbidden. This means things like
I'd love to see where it forbids that in the Torah. Unless the authors had
incredible foresight.
Andy Burns
2023-11-28 17:51:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Bob
Making electrical circuits manually is forbidden.
I'd love to see where it forbids that in the Torah.
I think it's classed as "making fire" and that's what's banned
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-11-29 16:25:36 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 17:51:41 +0000
Post by Andy Burns
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Bob
Making electrical circuits manually is forbidden.
I'd love to see where it forbids that in the Torah.
I think it's classed as "making fire" and that's what's banned
Sounds like some ignorant Rabbi back in the day who didn't understand
electricity just lumped it under whatever category was the least worst fit.
Coffee
2023-11-28 17:18:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
Post by Recliner
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/
Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't pander to
delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking suspicion that
if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have bent over
backwards to accomodate them.
What I don't get is why they can't some other rabbi to decide that as you
have to go outdoors to get between the foot tunnel and the museum, they
aren't under the same roof at all.
There used to be an exit from the subway which took you directly into
the entrance hall.  It may well be that that is still in existence.
I don't think that's the issue. If it were, then their proposed solution
wouldn't be acceptable.
I'll gladly defer to your understanding of the halakha.  I  gave up even
trying many moons ago and took at face value their assertion that the
outside archway would break up "the one roof phenomenon".  I would
however offer the possibility that the archway has effect (in Jewish
law) below the level of the pavement so as to sever the connection in
the subway which does continue into the Science Museum.
The black sheet steel between the two entrances is apparently important;
the unobtrusive archway alone isn't enough. So it must represent a wall
that extends beyond the slightly overhanging roof above, so there's no
unbroken path between the two entrances under the roof.
It seems people here aren't familiar how far the Sabbath rules go (though
https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/501/the-travelers-halachic-guide-to-hotels/
I first came across on a visit Jerusalem. I was going down to dinner, and
went to the lifts. I saw a group of people clustered around the far lift,
but the lift call light wasn't lit up. So I pressed the button, the lift
duly arrived, and the group all rushed across to join me. I duly pressed
the lift button to go the ground floor, and we travelled non-stop. Later, I
discovered that they weren't allowed to press the lift button, but were
waiting for the stopping lift that runs on the Sabbath. But once I'd
pressed the button, tgey were free to join me.
Making electrical circuits manually is forbidden. This means things like
lightswitches, lift call buttons and pedestrian crossing buttons are not
allowed. There is even an issue with refrigerator lights. Something that
happens independently of a person's actions can be utilised, though, and
an automatic system that was set in progress beforehand is fine. Hence
lights on a timer are OK, and a lift that endlessly runs stopping on
every floor is OK. Some fridges come with Sabbath mode where the
internal light is disabled on a timer.
The rules on getting assistance also pose peculiarities. If a gentile
does something of their own free will, it is totally fine to make use of
that. So in the lift example, because you wanted to go to the ground
floor yourself, it was fine for them to come along for the ride. It is
not, however, acceptable to ask for help. Askign someone to do something
forbidden is regarded as the same as doing it yourself. This led to the
odd concept of the Shabbos Goy, a gentile aquaintance who comes around
on the Sabbath and helps out by doing forbidden tasks. As it is
forbidden to both pay for the help and to directly ask for it, there
ensues an odd process of passing remarks about how it would be nice is
some task or other happened to be done (without actually asking for it
to be done), and of having a sum of money sitting in a place where the
goy might find it and take it away, with no explicit statement that it
is payment.
So if the lift fails at 0001 hours on the sabbath you're not allowed to
call for help at 0001 the next morning?
Recliner
2023-11-28 18:07:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Coffee
Post by Bob
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
Post by Recliner
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/
Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't pander to
delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking
suspicion that
if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have bent over
backwards to accomodate them.
What I don't get is why they can't some other rabbi to decide that as you
have to go outdoors to get between the foot tunnel and the museum, they
aren't under the same roof at all.
There used to be an exit from the subway which took you directly into
the entrance hall.  It may well be that that is still in existence.
I don't think that's the issue. If it were, then their proposed solution
wouldn't be acceptable.
I'll gladly defer to your understanding of the halakha.  I  gave up even
trying many moons ago and took at face value their assertion that the
outside archway would break up "the one roof phenomenon".  I would
however offer the possibility that the archway has effect (in Jewish
law) below the level of the pavement so as to sever the connection in
the subway which does continue into the Science Museum.
The black sheet steel between the two entrances is apparently important;
the unobtrusive archway alone isn't enough. So it must represent a wall
that extends beyond the slightly overhanging roof above, so there's no
unbroken path between the two entrances under the roof.
It seems people here aren't familiar how far the Sabbath rules go (though
https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/501/the-travelers-halachic-guide-to-hotels/
I first came across on a visit Jerusalem. I was going down to dinner, and
went to the lifts. I saw a group of people clustered around the far lift,
but the lift call light wasn't lit up. So I pressed the button, the lift
duly arrived, and the group all rushed across to join me. I duly pressed
the lift button to go the ground floor, and we travelled non-stop. Later, I
discovered that they weren't allowed to press the lift button, but were
waiting for the stopping lift that runs on the Sabbath. But once I'd
pressed the button, tgey were free to join me.
Making electrical circuits manually is forbidden. This means things like
lightswitches, lift call buttons and pedestrian crossing buttons are not
allowed. There is even an issue with refrigerator lights. Something that
happens independently of a person's actions can be utilised, though, and
an automatic system that was set in progress beforehand is fine. Hence
lights on a timer are OK, and a lift that endlessly runs stopping on
every floor is OK. Some fridges come with Sabbath mode where the
internal light is disabled on a timer.
The rules on getting assistance also pose peculiarities. If a gentile
does something of their own free will, it is totally fine to make use of
that. So in the lift example, because you wanted to go to the ground
floor yourself, it was fine for them to come along for the ride. It is
not, however, acceptable to ask for help. Askign someone to do something
forbidden is regarded as the same as doing it yourself. This led to the
odd concept of the Shabbos Goy, a gentile aquaintance who comes around
on the Sabbath and helps out by doing forbidden tasks. As it is
forbidden to both pay for the help and to directly ask for it, there
ensues an odd process of passing remarks about how it would be nice is
some task or other happened to be done (without actually asking for it
to be done), and of having a sum of money sitting in a place where the
goy might find it and take it away, with no explicit statement that it
is payment.
So if the lift fails at 0001 hours on the sabbath you're not allowed to
call for help at 0001 the next morning?
Sabbath does not start nor end at 0001.
Certes
2023-11-28 18:50:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Coffee
Post by Bob
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
Post by Recliner
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/
Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't pander to
delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking
suspicion that
if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have bent over
backwards to accomodate them.
What I don't get is why they can't some other rabbi to decide that as you
have to go outdoors to get between the foot tunnel and the museum, they
aren't under the same roof at all.
There used to be an exit from the subway which took you directly into
the entrance hall.  It may well be that that is still in existence.
I don't think that's the issue. If it were, then their proposed solution
wouldn't be acceptable.
I'll gladly defer to your understanding of the halakha.  I  gave up even
trying many moons ago and took at face value their assertion that the
outside archway would break up "the one roof phenomenon".  I would
however offer the possibility that the archway has effect (in Jewish
law) below the level of the pavement so as to sever the connection in
the subway which does continue into the Science Museum.
The black sheet steel between the two entrances is apparently important;
the unobtrusive archway alone isn't enough. So it must represent a wall
that extends beyond the slightly overhanging roof above, so there's no
unbroken path between the two entrances under the roof.
It seems people here aren't familiar how far the Sabbath rules go (though
https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/501/the-travelers-halachic-guide-to-hotels/
I first came across on a visit Jerusalem. I was going down to dinner, and
went to the lifts. I saw a group of people clustered around the far lift,
but the lift call light wasn't lit up. So I pressed the button, the lift
duly arrived, and the group all rushed across to join me. I duly pressed
the lift button to go the ground floor, and we travelled non-stop. Later, I
discovered that they weren't allowed to press the lift button, but were
waiting for the stopping lift that runs on the Sabbath. But once I'd
pressed the button, tgey were free to join me.
Making electrical circuits manually is forbidden. This means things like
lightswitches, lift call buttons and pedestrian crossing buttons are not
allowed. There is even an issue with refrigerator lights. Something that
happens independently of a person's actions can be utilised, though, and
an automatic system that was set in progress beforehand is fine. Hence
lights on a timer are OK, and a lift that endlessly runs stopping on
every floor is OK. Some fridges come with Sabbath mode where the
internal light is disabled on a timer.
The rules on getting assistance also pose peculiarities. If a gentile
does something of their own free will, it is totally fine to make use of
that. So in the lift example, because you wanted to go to the ground
floor yourself, it was fine for them to come along for the ride. It is
not, however, acceptable to ask for help. Askign someone to do something
forbidden is regarded as the same as doing it yourself. This led to the
odd concept of the Shabbos Goy, a gentile aquaintance who comes around
on the Sabbath and helps out by doing forbidden tasks. As it is
forbidden to both pay for the help and to directly ask for it, there
ensues an odd process of passing remarks about how it would be nice is
some task or other happened to be done (without actually asking for it
to be done), and of having a sum of money sitting in a place where the
goy might find it and take it away, with no explicit statement that it
is payment.
So if the lift fails at 0001 hours on the sabbath you're not allowed to
call for help at 0001 the next morning?
Sabbath does not start nor end at 0001.
It came close on 15 July this year in Fairbanks, Alaska: 0001 to 2358.
<https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/fairbanks?month=7&year=2023>
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2023-11-28 17:07:26 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 11:33:25 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/
Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't pander
to
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking suspicion
that
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have bent
over
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
backwards to accomodate them.
What I don't get is why they can't some other rabbi to decide that as you
have to go outdoors to get between the foot tunnel and the museum, they
aren't under the same roof at all.
There used to be an exit from the subway which took you directly into
the entrance hall. It may well be that that is still in existence.
I don't think that's the issue. If it were, then their proposed solution
wouldn't be acceptable.
I'll gladly defer to your understanding of the halakha. I gave up even
trying many moons ago and took at face value their assertion that the
outside archway would break up "the one roof phenomenon". I would
however offer the possibility that the archway has effect (in Jewish
law) below the level of the pavement so as to sever the connection in
the subway which does continue into the Science Museum.
Looking for logic in extreme religious beliefs is a fools errand.
GB
2023-11-28 14:22:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin
There used to be an exit from the subway which took you directly into
the entrance hall.  It may well be that that is still in existence.
I haven't been for a while, but that is how I remember it. Have they
done away with that entrance?
GB
2023-11-28 14:32:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I remember that, was a big fuss. You have to wonder if someones religious rules
are so inviolate that a bit of string allows them to to bypass them
When my father bought a new-build house, he pointed to the spec that
said the builders would install a fence. So, they stuck a couple of
poles in the ground and a bit of string between them, and said that's
your fence.

The eruv string similarly represents the most minimal fence you can
possibly get away with. You may think it's ridiculous - well, it is
ridiculous! - but it's pretty harmless. It's just some fishing line
strung between the lamp posts, and you have to look pretty hard to spot it.

In contrast, I'm not surprised that the council objected to the hideous
thing they wanted to place on the Science Museum. There must be a better
solution than that.
Charles Ellson
2023-11-30 07:08:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I remember that, was a big fuss. You have to wonder if someones religious rules
are so inviolate that a bit of string allows them to to bypass them
When my father bought a new-build house, he pointed to the spec that
said the builders would install a fence. So, they stuck a couple of
poles in the ground and a bit of string between them, and said that's
your fence.
The eruv string similarly represents the most minimal fence you can
possibly get away with. You may think it's ridiculous - well, it is
ridiculous! - but it's pretty harmless. It's just some fishing line
strung between the lamp posts, and you have to look pretty hard to spot it.
It is a continuous boundary marker rather than a fence; it doesn't
need to be capable of containing stock or excluding the mother-in-law.
You will find comparably flimsy "fences" in the Untied States in the
form of signs distributed around the periphery of a property :-
https://seriouspropertymarkers.com/
many nowhere near as substantial as these signs but placed for
visibility.
<snip>
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