How bendy is a bendy bus?

[Dave Arquati]

Is it bendy enough to make the left turn from New Oxford Street into
Charing Cross Road, and the turns between Charing Cross Road and
Shaftesbury Avenue? Oh, and the left turn into Piccadilly too?

I ask as the 38 converts to bendy operation soon, and I'll be interested
to see how easily (or not) they can make those movements...

[M***@aol.com]

Well, those running on the 507 can only negotiate the sharp left turn
from Waterloo Road into Sandell Street (near Waterloo East) by mounting
the pavement and throwing the passengers around like spinning tops.

Marc.

[M***@aol.com]

Sorry, I meant 521, not 507!

[Colin Rosenstiel]

Post by Dave Arquati
Is it bendy enough to make the left turn from New Oxford Street into
Charing Cross Road, and the turns between Charing Cross Road and
Shaftesbury Avenue? Oh, and the left turn into Piccadilly too?
I ask as the 38 converts to bendy operation soon, and I'll be
interested to see how easily (or not) they can make those movements...

You didn't mention the problems bendies on the 73 already have getting
into New Oxford Street from Bloomsbury Street.

I must say I'm surprised not to have seen a bendy on trials on the 38
route yet.

[Tom Page]

I have seen exactly this - on Wednesday 19th there were a number of
bendy-buses without destination blinds that seemed to be following the
38's route.

Tom

Post by Colin Rosenstiel

Post by Dave Arquati
Is it bendy enough to make the left turn from New Oxford Street into
Charing Cross Road, and the turns between Charing Cross Road and
Shaftesbury Avenue? Oh, and the left turn into Piccadilly too?
I ask as the 38 converts to bendy operation soon, and I'll be
interested to see how easily (or not) they can make those movements...

You didn't mention the problems bendies on the 73 already have getting
into New Oxford Street from Bloomsbury Street.
I must say I'm surprised not to have seen a bendy on trials on the 38
route yet.
--
Colin Rosenstiel

[Dave Arquati]

Post by Tom Page

Post by Colin Rosenstiel

Post by Dave Arquati
Is it bendy enough to make the left turn from New Oxford Street into
Charing Cross Road, and the turns between Charing Cross Road and
Shaftesbury Avenue? Oh, and the left turn into Piccadilly too?
I ask as the 38 converts to bendy operation soon, and I'll be
interested to see how easily (or not) they can make those movements...

You didn't mention the problems bendies on the 73 already have getting
into New Oxford Street from Bloomsbury Street.
I must say I'm surprised not to have seen a bendy on trials on the 38
route yet.

I have seen exactly this - on Wednesday 19th there were a number of
bendy-buses without destination blinds that seemed to be following the
38's route.

Did you see them squish anyone at St Giles' / Cambridge / Piccadilly
Circuses?

Incidentally, I'm not dead set against bendy buses, but I do wonder
about the practicalities of running them on some of the "tighter" routes.

[Colin Rosenstiel]

Post by Dave Arquati

Post by Tom Page

Post by Colin Rosenstiel

Post by Dave Arquati
Is it bendy enough to make the left turn from New Oxford Street
into Charing Cross Road, and the turns between Charing Cross Road
and Shaftesbury Avenue? Oh, and the left turn into Piccadilly too?
I ask as the 38 converts to bendy operation soon, and I'll be
interested to see how easily (or not) they can make those
movements...

You didn't mention the problems bendies on the 73 already have
getting into New Oxford Street from Bloomsbury Street.
I must say I'm surprised not to have seen a bendy on trials on the
38 route yet.

I have seen exactly this - on Wednesday 19th there were a number of
bendy-buses without destination blinds that seemed to be following
the 38's route.

Ah! Thanks. Missed them. What sort of time of day? I do remember seeing
bendy trials on the 73.

Post by Dave Arquati
Did you see them squish anyone at St Giles' / Cambridge / Piccadilly
Circuses?
Incidentally, I'm not dead set against bendy buses, but I do wonder
about the practicalities of running them on some of the "tighter" routes.

Isn't the point on the 38 to replace large numbers of Routemasters with
a lot fewer bendies, as on the 73?

[David Cantrell]

Post by Colin Rosenstiel
Isn't the point on the 38 to replace large numbers of Routemasters with
a lot fewer bendies, as on the 73?

The service becoming less frequent, is, of course, a Good Thing, as is
the drastic reduction in the number of seats. Because everyone knows
that standing in the rain for longer and then having to stand in the
bus is what the customers want.

[Paul Corfield]

Post by Dave Arquati
Is it bendy enough to make the left turn from New Oxford Street into
Charing Cross Road, and the turns between Charing Cross Road and
Shaftesbury Avenue? Oh, and the left turn into Piccadilly too?

I have seen a route 25 bendy turn round under Centre point so it managed
the first of your turns. On another group it has been confirmed that a
bendies and other long buses and coaches can successfully turn into the
Piccadilly Bus Lane.

Post by Dave Arquati
I ask as the 38 converts to bendy operation soon, and I'll be interested
to see how easily (or not) they can make those movements...

There are plenty of artics around and about training over the 38 route
corridor and I've not heard of one jamming up central London because it
couldn't make a turn. All routes are carefully surveyed and trial
vehicles are used early on to test if the proposed vehicle is suitable.

[David Boothroyd]

The northbound 436 regularly rounds a rather narrow bend at Vauxhall
which is about 110?.

[thoss]

Post by David Boothroyd
The northbound 436 regularly rounds a rather narrow bend at Vauxhall
which is about 110?.

When the 207 went bendy, it had to be terminated at the Hayes bypass
because it couldn't get into Uxbridge.

[Paul]

Post by thoss

Post by David Boothroyd
The northbound 436 regularly rounds a rather narrow bend at Vauxhall
which is about 110?.

When the 207 went bendy, it had to be terminated at the Hayes bypass
because it couldn't get into Uxbridge.
--
Thoss

That and the fact that passenger numbers wouldn't justify their use on the
western section of the route

[JMUpton2000]

Post by Paul Corfield

Post by Dave Arquati
Is it bendy enough to make the left turn from New Oxford Street into
Charing Cross Road, and the turns between Charing Cross Road and
Shaftesbury Avenue? Oh, and the left turn into Piccadilly too?

I have seen a route 25 bendy turn round under Centre point so it managed
the first of your turns. On another group it has been confirmed that a
bendies and other long buses and coaches can successfully turn into the
Piccadilly Bus Lane.

Post by Dave Arquati
I ask as the 38 converts to bendy operation soon, and I'll be interested
to see how easily (or not) they can make those movements...

I saw what appeared to be a lost 73 bendy at turning right from Charing
Cross Road into Shaftesbury Avenue this very lunchtime (Some road closures
around about the TCR area causing the usual mayhem!).

On the way eastbound through Shaftesbury Avenue, the RML I was on (enjoying
one last ride to Museum Street from Victoria, it just won't be the same now)
got stuck in a snarl up with a London General WVL and an Arriva route 19 DW
type, the latter was having some form of mechanical trouble by the look of
it and everything ground to a halt in the first part of Shaftesbury Avenue
just off Piccadilly. The RML and another along with the slightly impatient
driver of the London General WVL all managed to pull out and round with no
problem, however it is patently obvious that as soon as the burning bendies
start running three at a time though there with their additional length, all
hell is going to break loose very slowly!

To add insult to injury, the 38's RM's have received "cheery" 'Route 38 gets
better from every angle' posters same as the Route 73 ones they did (Who
writes this propagandist cobblers?!?). I saw at least one get torn down by
an elderly passenger clearly disgusted at the changeover, and who can blame
him!

Regards
John M Upton

My Fotopic Collections:
South Central/Southern, Model Railway & Other Rail Pictures:
http://gallery39764.fotopic.net/

Bus Pics:
http://gallery42239.fotopic.net/

[Ian Jelf]

Post by Paul Corfield

Post by Dave Arquati
Is it bendy enough to make the left turn from New Oxford Street into
Charing Cross Road, and the turns between Charing Cross Road and
Shaftesbury Avenue? Oh, and the left turn into Piccadilly too?

I have seen a route 25 bendy turn round under Centre point so it managed
the first of your turns.

And I would have thought that the Charing + Road / Shaftesbury Avenue
one would have been the easier of the two.

[Paul Corfield]

Post by Ian Jelf

Post by Paul Corfield

Post by Dave Arquati
Is it bendy enough to make the left turn from New Oxford Street into
Charing Cross Road, and the turns between Charing Cross Road and
Shaftesbury Avenue? Oh, and the left turn into Piccadilly too?

I have seen a route 25 bendy turn round under Centre point so it managed
the first of your turns.

And I would have thought that the Charing + Road / Shaftesbury Avenue
one would have been the easier of the two.

It's tighter than it looks but the real issue is that both roads heading
in either direction can be full of traffic thus stopping a bus making
the manoeuvre properly, leaving them blocking the junction. It's bad
enough with RMs, worse with LFDDs and I dread to think what will happen
next week with bendies.

The other issue at this junction is that it is a struggle for southbound
24, 29 and 176s to squeeze past anything turning right into Shaftesbury
Av at Cambridge Circus. With a 18m bendy bus slightly out of place
nothing will move for ages. You can wait a fair few minutes at Leicester
Square waiting for a s/b bus to get past Cambridge Circus given the
ludicrously short phasing for buses.

This will get much worse, in my view, with bendies on the 38 and as for
when the 29 goes over - I think I shall abandon using the 24 as I can
see 29s taking over 15 minutes to get through the multiple sets of
lights near Trafalgar Square. It will certainly be possible for a bendy
bus to straddle at least one junction and two sets of lights just before
St Martins in the Fields.

[Colin Rosenstiel]

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:28:11 +0100, Ian Jelf

Post by Ian Jelf

Post by Paul Corfield

Post by Dave Arquati
Is it bendy enough to make the left turn from New Oxford Street
into Charing Cross Road, and the turns between Charing Cross Road and
Shaftesbury Avenue? Oh, and the left turn into Piccadilly too?

I have seen a route 25 bendy turn round under Centre point so it
managed the first of your turns.

And I would have thought that the Charing + Road / Shaftesbury
Avenue one would have been the easier of the two.

It's tighter than it looks but the real issue is that both roads
heading in either direction can be full of traffic thus stopping a bus
making the manoeuvre properly, leaving them blocking the junction.
It's bad enough with RMs, worse with LFDDs and I dread to think what
will happen next week with bendies.
The other issue at this junction is that it is a struggle for
southbound 24, 29 and 176s to squeeze past anything turning right into
Shaftesbury Av at Cambridge Circus. With a 18m bendy bus slightly out
of place nothing will move for ages. You can wait a fair few minutes at
Leicester Square waiting for a s/b bus to get past Cambridge Circus
given the ludicrously short phasing for buses.
This will get much worse, in my view, with bendies on the 38 and as
for when the 29 goes over - I think I shall abandon using the 24 as I
can see 29s taking over 15 minutes to get through the multiple sets of
lights near Trafalgar Square. It will certainly be possible for a
bendy bus to straddle at least one junction and two sets of lights just
before St Martins in the Fields.

Oh triffic! I cycle through those junctions and getting buses not to
obstruct the cycle lanes is hard enough now.

[Harry Spencer]

Post by Dave Arquati
Is it bendy enough to make the left turn from New Oxford Street into
Charing Cross Road, and the turns between Charing Cross Road and
Shaftesbury Avenue? Oh, and the left turn into Piccadilly too?
I ask as the 38 converts to bendy operation soon, and I'll be interested
to see how easily (or not) they can make those movements...

Could be completely unrelated, but making an assumption from the appearance
of the dented panels on the rear section of BV05 VFH that I saw a couple of
days ago by Centrepoint, I'd say possibly not that well...

[David B]

Post by Dave Arquati
Is it bendy enough to make the left turn from New Oxford Street into
Charing Cross Road, and the turns between Charing Cross Road and
Shaftesbury Avenue? Oh, and the left turn into Piccadilly too?
I ask as the 38 converts to bendy operation soon, and I'll be interested
to see how easily (or not) they can make those movements...
--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

A bit off topic but would a standard length double decker bus with 3 sets of
doors and 2 staircases be a good idea? Better than a bendibus? I was
following one in my coach and noticed they are sooooo slow around 90 degree
corners. Coventional vehicles are much faster and dont take the whole road.

[Paul Corfield]

On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 11:28:01 -0000, "David B"

Post by David B

Post by Dave Arquati
Is it bendy enough to make the left turn from New Oxford Street into
Charing Cross Road, and the turns between Charing Cross Road and
Shaftesbury Avenue? Oh, and the left turn into Piccadilly too?
I ask as the 38 converts to bendy operation soon, and I'll be interested
to see how easily (or not) they can make those movements...

A bit off topic but would a standard length double decker bus with 3 sets of
doors and 2 staircases be a good idea? Better than a bendibus? I was
following one in my coach and noticed they are sooooo slow around 90 degree
corners. Coventional vehicles are much faster and dont take the whole road.

Ah you seem to be referring to a Berlin design of double decker. I have
not used the brand new Neomans yet but I did not notice that the Berlin
deckers were that much faster with two staircases and three doors. It is
interesting to note that Berlin has restricted the old open boarding
concept although many people still board via the front and centre doors.

The new Neoman DD buses may be worse than a bendy bus simply because
their overall length is longer that the front section of a bendy. If you
think a 38 struggles on some turns then I can't see a 12 or 13.73m
double deck doing much better.

http://www.man-mn.de/en/Coaches/News_&_Media/Press_releases/show_press.jsp?id=46804&print=

The speed of movement of bendy buses is highly dependent on the skill of
the driver. When a route is newly converted you will see a lot of
hesitation as familiarity with the vehicles is low. However I have been
in some well driven bendy buses on the 73 and they can be fairly hustled
along and around the route with no discomfort and full safety. There are
some very tight turns on the 73 and to experience an 18m bus piloted
skillfully is impressive.

[Clive]

However I have been in some well driven bendy buses on the 73 and they
can be fairly hustled along and around the route with no discomfort and
full safety. There are some very tight turns on the 73 and to
experience an 18m bus piloted skillfully is impressive.

And if the drivers are rewarded with a good pay grade I'm sure they'll
do even better.

[David B]

Post by Paul Corfield
The speed of movement of bendy buses is highly dependent on the skill of
the driver. When a route is newly converted you will see a lot of
hesitation as familiarity with the vehicles is low. However I have been
in some well driven bendy buses on the 73 and they can be fairly hustled
along and around the route with no discomfort and full safety. There are
some very tight turns on the 73 and to experience an 18m bus piloted
skillfully is impressive.
--
Paul C
Admits to working for London Underground!

I will have a look at the Neomans later. I haven't driven an artic, but I
understand that compared with a normal bus, they are limited round very
tight corners. The Volvo type of artic only allows limited engine power to
be developed while turning sharply to avoid any possible jack knifing. The
436 I followed from New Cross was running light to Lewisham. It was quite
quick in a straight line, but when going round corners, it really slowed up,
where a B7TL would be spun round!

[Adrian]

Post by David B
I will have a look at the Neomans later. I haven't driven an artic,
but I understand that compared with a normal bus, they are limited
round very tight corners. The Volvo type of artic only allows limited
engine power to be developed while turning sharply to avoid any
possible jack knifing.

Somebody mentioned here the other day about having seen a jack-knifed Bendi
- was it in an underpass?

That got me thinking - It's the rears that are driven, not the centre
wheels - so if grip was somehow lost at the centre axle, and power was not
reduced quickly enough, a jack-knife would be eminently possible.

With a sharp dip, it's not difficult to see how the centre axle can "go
light" - How much vertical articulation is there in the joint?

[Clive]

Post by Adrian
That got me thinking - It's the rears that are driven, not the centre
wheels - so if grip was somehow lost at the centre axle, and power was
not reduced quickly enough, a jack-knife would be eminently possible.

I understood the engine to be in the back but drove the rear wheels of
the front unit through a cardan shaft to stop any chance of imbalance of
drive.

[Adrian]

Post by Clive

Post by Adrian
That got me thinking - It's the rears that are driven, not the centre
wheels - so if grip was somehow lost at the centre axle, and power was
not reduced quickly enough, a jack-knife would be eminently possible.

I understood the engine to be in the back but drove the rear wheels of
the front unit through a cardan shaft to stop any chance of imbalance of
drive.

Makes sense - Merc's website confirms it's rear-engined, but just describes
the "rear axle" in the transmission specs - which could mean both rear and
centre axles are driven - which would give the same effect if the centre
lost grip.

I seem to recall reading that the MoD had similar problems with powered
trailers on 101 Forward Control Land-Rovers "pushing" too hard and rolling
the vehicle, so they dumped that idea.

[Troy Tempest]

.

Post by Clive
I understood the engine to be in the back but drove the rear wheels of
the front unit through a cardan shaft to stop any chance of imbalance of
drive.
--
Clive

That's not quite true, the engine indeed drives the rear wheels but the
centre axle is a trailing axle,i.e. it has no drive or is in no way
connected to the transmission system.

The artic section can bend to a PHYSICAL 54 degrees before the system
locks up.(The drive and transmission cuts out before the driver has
tied it in knots!). Prior to this of course the on-board computer will
warn the driver of any impending excessive bendyness.

Citaros are fitted with traction control and along with the ABS system
will prevent the center (and the front/rear) axle from loosing grip.
Again any traction loss or excessive wheel spin is flagged up on the
drivers display.

Bob

[Terry Harper]

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 19:29:29 +0000, Paul Corfield

Post by Paul Corfield
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 11:28:01 -0000, "David B"

Post by David B
A bit off topic but would a standard length double decker bus with 3 sets of
doors and 2 staircases be a good idea? Better than a bendibus? I was
following one in my coach and noticed they are sooooo slow around 90 degree
corners. Coventional vehicles are much faster and dont take the whole road.

Ah you seem to be referring to a Berlin design of double decker. I have
not used the brand new Neomans yet but I did not notice that the Berlin
deckers were that much faster with two staircases and three doors. It is
interesting to note that Berlin has restricted the old open boarding
concept although many people still board via the front and centre doors.

Back way back when, Bournemouth Corporation ran 6-wheel trolleybuses
with two staircases, and the front exit door operated by the driver
with a lever mechanism. It's almost 60 years since I last rode on one,
but they seemed to speed up time at stops.

The rear platform was open, of course.