Card payments on TfL

On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 14:56:15 +0100

Post by Roland Perry
(a) I was in London over the weekend, and the buses don't recognise
provincial concessionary cards. So just wave them at the driver and
they shrug and nod you on.
(b) I've got a 'wearable' (like a watch strap with no watch) and while
there have been some teething problems [1], it's now successfully
paying using funds from an associated debit card.

Why can't you just use a contactless bank card like everyone else? You seem to
go out of your way to make your life difficult sometimes.

Roland Perry

2024-06-07 20:50:32 UTC

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 14:56:15 +0100

Why can't you just use a contactless bank card like everyone else? You seem to
go out of your way to make your life difficult sometimes.

Because I want to try out the technology, as this is right in my field
of interest.

Because sometimes I want to go out sans wallet. (Day on the beach
perhaps).

Because I don't want to have get wallet out of my pocket, extract the
card itself, then put it all back.

--
Roland Perry

M***@dastardlyhq.com

2024-06-08 09:06:40 UTC

On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 21:50:32 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 14:56:15 +0100

Why can't you just use a contactless bank card like everyone else? You seem to
go out of your way to make your life difficult sometimes.

Because I want to try out the technology, as this is right in my field
of interest.

So don't complain if it doesn't work then.

Post by Roland Perry
Because sometimes I want to go out sans wallet. (Day on the beach
perhaps).

I'd have thought it a lot more faff to take a load of expensive not quite
working tech which probably isn't salt water proof either than just put a
wallet in your pocket.

Post by Roland Perry
Because I don't want to have get wallet out of my pocket, extract the

Such hardship. Do what I do and have a single contactless card in your wallet
so you don't even need to remove it.

Post by Roland Perry
card itself, then put it all back.

You'd sooner faff around trying to get some wearable gimmick to work and then
when it doesn't dodge the bus fare. I'd love to see how you'd explain that
away to a gripper if you got caught.

Theo

2024-06-08 14:09:45 UTC

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 21:50:32 +0100

Post by Roland Perry
Because sometimes I want to go out sans wallet. (Day on the beach
perhaps).

I'd have thought it a lot more faff to take a load of expensive not quite
working tech which probably isn't salt water proof either than just put a
wallet in your pocket.

The beach is actually a good place where I can imagine a smartwatch might
have an advantage. Instead of leaving your wallet and/or phone on the beach
while you go for a swim, where somebody might nick them, just wear the
watch. That handles payments and communications (if it supports LTE or some
place on the beach has wifi), and is probably sufficiently waterproof.
If you drive the right sort of car then it can also work as your car keys,
or hold your mobile ticket for the train home.

You could carry your bank card while swimming, but not sure they're designed
for salt water and not all swimsuits have pockets.

Theo

Roland Perry

2024-06-08 15:37:21 UTC

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 21:50:32 +0100

Post by Roland Perry
Because sometimes I want to go out sans wallet. (Day on the beach
perhaps).

I'd have thought it a lot more faff to take a load of expensive not quite
working tech which probably isn't salt water proof either than just put a
wallet in your pocket.

The wearable doesn't need a phone nearby.

Post by Theo
If you drive the right sort of car then it can also work as your car keys,
or hold your mobile ticket for the train home.

But it can't do any of those.

Post by Theo
You could carry your bank card while swimming, but not sure they're designed
for salt water and not all swimsuits have pockets.
Theo

--
Roland Perry

M***@dastardlyhq.com

2024-06-08 15:51:53 UTC

On 08 Jun 2024 15:09:45 +0100 (BST)

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 21:50:32 +0100

Post by Roland Perry
Because sometimes I want to go out sans wallet. (Day on the beach
perhaps).

I'd have thought it a lot more faff to take a load of expensive not quite
working tech which probably isn't salt water proof either than just put a
wallet in your pocket.

Not sure I'd bet that. Water resistent maybe.

Post by Theo
If you drive the right sort of car then it can also work as your car keys,
or hold your mobile ticket for the train home.

Then you lose it and you're completely hosed. Eggs in one basket etc...

Post by Theo
You could carry your bank card while swimming, but not sure they're designed
for salt water and not all swimsuits have pockets.

The chip and PIN probably not, but the contactless part would survive.

Roland Perry

2024-06-08 15:35:27 UTC

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 21:50:32 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 14:56:15 +0100

Why can't you just use a contactless bank card like everyone else? You seem to
go out of your way to make your life difficult sometimes.

Because I want to try out the technology, as this is right in my field
of interest.

So don't complain if it doesn't work then.

I used to review several items of tech a month for magazines. Can't
shake the habit.

Post by Roland Perry
Because sometimes I want to go out sans wallet. (Day on the beach
perhaps).

I'd have thought it a lot more faff to take a load of expensive not quite
working tech which probably isn't salt water proof either than just put a
wallet in your pocket.

You've got a waterproof wallet? I'm impressed.

Post by Roland Perry
Because I don't want to have get wallet out of my pocket, extract the

Such hardship. Do what I do and have a single contactless card in your wallet
so you don't even need to remove it.

Sadly, I lead a slightly more diverse life, and need several cards o one
sort or another.

Post by Roland Perry
card itself, then put it all back.

You'd sooner faff around trying to get some wearable gimmick to work and then
when it doesn't dodge the bus fare.

Not sure how you do that with the driver watching to see you get a green
light.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I'd love to see how you'd explain that away to a gripper if you got
caught.

If it goes green, no issue. On the other hand my provincial
concessionary card (which is what I'd use almost always buses, a
nd is a prime example of needing more than one card in the wallet)
isn't recognised by TfL's bus pads. The driver just shrugs and
waves you inside.

--
Roland Perry

M***@dastardlyhq.com

2024-06-08 16:01:07 UTC

On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 16:35:27 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I'd have thought it a lot more faff to take a load of expensive not quite
working tech which probably isn't salt water proof either than just put a
wallet in your pocket.

You've got a waterproof wallet? I'm impressed.

Since you can't take either in the sea you need to put them somewhere when
you go for a swim.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Such hardship. Do what I do and have a single contactless card in your wallet
so you don't even need to remove it.

Sadly, I lead a slightly more diverse life, and need several cards o one
sort or another.

Who said I don't have several cards? Only the credit card is contactless, the
debit cards are not as I don't fancy my accounts being cleared out if I lose
my wallet and the banks giving refunds weeks down the line won't stop the
direct debits bouncing.

Post by Roland Perry
nd is a prime example of needing more than one card in the wallet)
isn't recognised by TfL's bus pads. The driver just shrugs and
waves you inside.

I wouldn't lay money on all of them doing that.

Roland Perry

2024-06-08 17:14:57 UTC

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 16:35:27 +0100

You've got a waterproof wallet? I'm impressed.

Since you can't take either in the sea you need to put them somewhere when
you go for a swim.

Actually I didn't mention swimming, although I might have a paddle.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Such hardship. Do what I do and have a single contactless card in your wallet
so you don't even need to remove it.

Sadly, I lead a slightly more diverse life, and need several cards o one
sort or another.

You are going to as much trouble as you pour scorn on me doing.

[Provincial concessionary card]

Post by Roland Perry
nd is a prime example of needing more than one card in the wallet)
isn't recognised by TfL's bus pads. The driver just shrugs and
waves you inside.

I wouldn't lay money on all of them doing that.

All the what: pads, or drivers? The drivers have to let me on, even if
the pad doesn't work.

--
Roland Perry

M***@dastardlyhq.com

2024-06-08 17:50:37 UTC

On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 18:14:57 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Who said I don't have several cards? Only the credit card is contactless, the
debit cards are not as I don't fancy my accounts being cleared out if I lose
my wallet and the banks giving refunds weeks down the line won't stop the
direct debits bouncing.

You are going to as much trouble as you pour scorn on me doing.

No hassle at all. Not sure why you think it would be.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I wouldn't lay money on all of them doing that.

All the what: pads, or drivers? The drivers have to let me on, even if
the pad doesn't work.

If your card doesn't work they're not oblidged to let you on. It might have
been invalidated or expired.

Graeme Wall

2024-06-08 18:25:44 UTC

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 18:14:57 +0100

You are going to as much trouble as you pour scorn on me doing.

No hassle at all. Not sure why you think it would be.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I wouldn't lay money on all of them doing that.

All the what: pads, or drivers? The drivers have to let me on, even if
the pad doesn't work.

If your card doesn't work they're not oblidged to let you on. It might have
been invalidated or expired.

National bus passes don't play nicely with the TfL system so you just
have to show the pass to the driver on boarding.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Recliner

2024-06-08 20:15:08 UTC

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 18:14:57 +0100

You are going to as much trouble as you pour scorn on me doing.

No hassle at all. Not sure why you think it would be.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I wouldn't lay money on all of them doing that.

All the what: pads, or drivers? The drivers have to let me on, even if
the pad doesn't work.

If your card doesn't work they're not oblidged to let you on. It might have
been invalidated or expired.

National bus passes don't play nicely with the TfL system so you just
have to show the pass to the driver on boarding.

Do they issue a printed receipt that you can show a ticket inspector?

Graeme Wall

2024-06-08 20:31:51 UTC

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 18:14:57 +0100

You are going to as much trouble as you pour scorn on me doing.

No hassle at all. Not sure why you think it would be.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I wouldn't lay money on all of them doing that.

All the what: pads, or drivers? The drivers have to let me on, even if
the pad doesn't work.

If your card doesn't work they're not oblidged to let you on. It might have
been invalidated or expired.

National bus passes don't play nicely with the TfL system so you just
have to show the pass to the driver on boarding.

Do they issue a printed receipt that you can show a ticket inspector?

No, you just produce the pass. They glance at it, say thank you and move
on to the next person.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry

2024-06-09 06:55:56 UTC

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 18:14:57 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Who said I don't have several cards? Only the credit card is
contactless, the debit cards are not as I don't fancy my accounts
being cleared out if I lose my wallet and the banks giving
refunds weeks down the line won't stop the direct debits bouncing.

You are going to as much trouble as you pour scorn on me doing.

No hassle at all. Not sure why you think it would be.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I wouldn't lay money on all of them doing that.

All the what: pads, or drivers? The drivers have to let me on, even if
the pad doesn't work.

If your card doesn't work they're not oblidged to let you on. It might have
been invalidated or expired.

National bus passes don't play nicely with the TfL system so you just
have to show the pass to the driver on boarding.

Do they issue a printed receipt that you can show a ticket
inspector?

No need to (and they don't for Freedom Passes, do they?) In the unlikely
event a gripper arrives, just show them your equivalent of an "all
lines" rover. And obviously they'll know the bus's ticket machine
doesn't issue receipts.

Post by Graeme Wall
No, you just produce the pass. They glance at it, say thank you and
move on to the next person.

Sometimes they press a button, presumably to register an out-of-town
pass. Other drivers don't bother.

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2024-06-09 12:52:26 UTC

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 18:14:57 +0100

You are going to as much trouble as you pour scorn on me doing.

No hassle at all. Not sure why you think it would be.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I wouldn't lay money on all of them doing that.

All the what: pads, or drivers? The drivers have to let me on, even if
the pad doesn't work.

If your card doesn't work they're not oblidged to let you on. It might have
been invalidated or expired.

National bus passes don't play nicely with the TfL system so you just
have to show the pass to the driver on boarding.

Do they issue a printed receipt that you can show a ticket inspector?

No, you just produce the pass. They glance at it, say thank you and move
on to the next person.

I think some out-of-London buses print out a ticket when you use a non-local national bus pass.

Graeme Wall

2024-06-09 13:26:55 UTC

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 18:14:57 +0100

You are going to as much trouble as you pour scorn on me doing.

No hassle at all. Not sure why you think it would be.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I wouldn't lay money on all of them doing that.

All the what: pads, or drivers? The drivers have to let me on, even if
the pad doesn't work.

If your card doesn't work they're not oblidged to let you on. It might have
been invalidated or expired.

National bus passes don't play nicely with the TfL system so you just
have to show the pass to the driver on boarding.

Do they issue a printed receipt that you can show a ticket inspector?

No, you just produce the pass. They glance at it, say thank you and move
on to the next person.

I think some out-of-London buses print out a ticket when you use a non-local national bus pass.

The local one in Guildford did that for a while till they updated the
software on their on-board terminals. But it included all passes,
including Surrey's.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry

2024-06-09 17:06:25 UTC

On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 21:31:51 +0100, Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 18:14:57 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Who said I don't have several cards? Only the credit card is
contactless, the debit cards are not as I don't fancy my
accounts being cleared out if I lose my wallet and the banks
giving refunds weeks down the line won't stop the direct debits bouncing.

You are going to as much trouble as you pour scorn on me doing.

No hassle at all. Not sure why you think it would be.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I wouldn't lay money on all of them doing that.

All the what: pads, or drivers? The drivers have to let me on, even if
the pad doesn't work.

If your card doesn't work they're not oblidged to let you on. It
might have been invalidated or expired.

National bus passes don't play nicely with the TfL system so you just
have to show the pass to the driver on boarding.

Do they issue a printed receipt that you can show a ticket inspector?

No, you just produce the pass. They glance at it, say thank you and move
on to the next person.

I think some out-of-London buses print out a ticket when you use a
non-local national bus pass.

The local one in Guildford did that for a while till they updated the
software on their on-board terminals. But it included all passes,
including Surrey's.

When an RPI gets on he has to download the details of people who have
paid, so when they re-present him the same card they know he's not a
fare dodger. For an interim period many bus companies did the thing with
a paper receipt (for all fares not just the concessions), while the full
solution was rolled out.

Printing the paper receipt for the concessionary card was redundant
(because it's an all-route rover anyway), but it was easier just to do
it for all pax.

--
Roland Perry

M***@dastardlyhq.com

2024-06-09 08:13:11 UTC

On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:25:44 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 18:14:57 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Who said I don't have several cards? Only the credit card is contactless,

the

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
debit cards are not as I don't fancy my accounts being cleared out if I

lose

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
my wallet and the banks giving refunds weeks down the line won't stop the
direct debits bouncing.

You are going to as much trouble as you pour scorn on me doing.

No hassle at all. Not sure why you think it would be.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I wouldn't lay money on all of them doing that.

All the what: pads, or drivers? The drivers have to let me on, even if
the pad doesn't work.

If your card doesn't work they're not oblidged to let you on. It might have
been invalidated or expired.

National bus passes don't play nicely with the TfL system so you just
have to show the pass to the driver on boarding.

London bus drivers arn't known for their compassion or patience. Some might
let him on, plenty probably wouldn't and wouldn't even be interested in
checking the pass.

Graeme Wall

2024-06-09 09:28:22 UTC

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:25:44 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 18:14:57 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Who said I don't have several cards? Only the credit card is contactless,

the

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
debit cards are not as I don't fancy my accounts being cleared out if I

lose

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
my wallet and the banks giving refunds weeks down the line won't stop the
direct debits bouncing.

You are going to as much trouble as you pour scorn on me doing.

No hassle at all. Not sure why you think it would be.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I wouldn't lay money on all of them doing that.

All the what: pads, or drivers? The drivers have to let me on, even if
the pad doesn't work.

If your card doesn't work they're not oblidged to let you on. It might have
been invalidated or expired.

National bus passes don't play nicely with the TfL system so you just
have to show the pass to the driver on boarding.

London bus drivers arn't known for their compassion or patience. Some might
let him on, plenty probably wouldn't and wouldn't even be interested in
checking the pass.

The system is designed to let people with out-of-town passes use them
for travel. Nothing to do with the predilections of individual drivers.

I've often travelled on London buses and have never had a problem.
Including being checked by TTIs.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry

2024-06-09 17:01:28 UTC

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:25:44 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 18:14:57 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Who said I don't have several cards? Only the credit card is
contactless, the debit cards are not as I don't fancy my
accounts being cleared out if I lose my wallet and the banks
giving refunds weeks down the line won't stop the
direct debits bouncing.

You are going to as much trouble as you pour scorn on me doing.

No hassle at all. Not sure why you think it would be.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I wouldn't lay money on all of them doing that.

All the what: pads, or drivers? The drivers have to let me on, even if
the pad doesn't work.

If your card doesn't work they're not oblidged to let you on. It might have
been invalidated or expired.

National bus passes don't play nicely with the TfL system so you just
have to show the pass to the driver on boarding.

London bus drivers arn't known for their compassion or patience.
Some might let him on, plenty probably wouldn't and wouldn't even be
interested in checking the pass.

The system is designed to let people with out-of-town passes use them
for travel. Nothing to do with the predilections of individual drivers.
I've often travelled on London buses and have never had a problem.
Including being checked by TTIs.

That's right, I have idea where Muttley's NLP assistant is getting this
bizarre idea from.

--
Roland Perry

Graeme Wall

2024-06-10 07:39:08 UTC

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:25:44 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 18:14:57 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Who said I don't have several cards? Only the credit card is
contactless, the debit cards are not as I don't fancy my
accounts being cleared out if I lose my wallet and the banks
giving refunds weeks down the line won't stop the
direct debits bouncing.

You are going to as much trouble as you pour scorn on me doing.

No hassle at all. Not sure why you think it would be.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I wouldn't lay money on all of them doing that.

All the what: pads, or drivers? The drivers have to let me on, even if
the pad doesn't work.

If your card doesn't work they're not oblidged to let you on. It might have
been invalidated or expired.

National bus passes don't play nicely with the TfL system so you just
have to show the pass to the driver on boarding.

London bus drivers arn't known for their compassion or patience.
Some might let him on, plenty probably wouldn't and wouldn't even be
interested in checking the pass.

The system is designed to let people with out-of-town passes use them
for travel. Nothing to do with the predilections of individual drivers.
I've often travelled on London buses and have never had a problem.
Including being checked by TTIs.

That's right, I have idea where Muttley's NLP assistant is getting this
bizarre idea from.

Neil is probably too young to have a bus pass, even if he has one, as a
London resident it will be a Freedom Pass which the TfL system
recognises. So he has no experience of using an out-of-town pass and is
basing his argument on his prejudices.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall

2024-06-10 07:56:52 UTC

Post by Graeme Wall
Neil is probably too young to have a bus pass, even if he has one, as a
London resident it will be a Freedom Pass which the TfL system
recognises. So he has no experience of using an out-of-town pass and is
basing his argument on his prejudices.

As a thought, how do Freedom passes work on buses outside of London?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry

2024-06-10 11:00:23 UTC

Post by Graeme Wall
Neil is probably too young to have a bus pass, even if he has one, as
a London resident it will be a Freedom Pass which the TfL system
recognises. So he has no experience of using an out-of-town pass and
is basing his argument on his prejudices.

As a thought, how do Freedom passes work on buses outside of London?

Many provincial operators (such as Stagecoach) have ITSO pads, for their
own smartcards and local concessionary passes. So they should be able to
recognise them. Otherwise you would need to show the driver.

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2024-06-10 13:38:30 UTC

Post by Graeme Wall
Neil is probably too young to have a bus pass, even if he has one, as
a London resident it will be a Freedom Pass which the TfL system
recognises. So he has no experience of using an out-of-town pass and
is basing his argument on his prejudices.

As a thought, how do Freedom passes work on buses outside of London?

Yes, they do work on ITSO readers.

Graeme Wall

2024-06-10 15:02:32 UTC

Post by Graeme Wall
Neil is probably too young to have a bus pass, even if he has one, as
a London resident it will be a Freedom Pass which the TfL system
recognises. So he has no experience of using an out-of-town pass and
is basing his argument on his prejudices.

As a thought, how do Freedom passes work on buses outside of London?

Many provincial operators (such as Stagecoach) have ITSO pads, for their
own smartcards and local concessionary passes.

For many read virtually all, even the same ones round here, Safeguard,
Compass Travel ans White Bus, all have readers.

Post by Roland Perry
So they should be able to
recognise them. Otherwise you would need to show the driver.

I was wondering whether they coped with ITSO as well as Oyster.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Recliner

2024-06-10 15:28:25 UTC

Post by Graeme Wall
Neil is probably too young to have a bus pass, even if he has one, as
a London resident it will be a Freedom Pass which the TfL system
recognises. So he has no experience of using an out-of-town pass and
is basing his argument on his prejudices.

As a thought, how do Freedom passes work on buses outside of London?

Many provincial operators (such as Stagecoach) have ITSO pads, for their
own smartcards and local concessionary passes.

For many read virtually all, even the same ones round here, Safeguard,
Compass Travel ans White Bus, all have readers.

Post by Roland Perry
So they should be able to
recognise them. Otherwise you would need to show the driver.

I was wondering whether they coped with ITSO as well as Oyster.

I think the national bus pass is ITSO. Freedom Passes are both.

Roland Perry

2024-06-10 15:36:08 UTC

Post by Graeme Wall
Neil is probably too young to have a bus pass, even if he has one,
as a London resident it will be a Freedom Pass which the TfL
system recognises. So he has no experience of using an out-of-town
pass and is basing his argument on his prejudices.

As a thought, how do Freedom passes work on buses outside of London?

Many provincial operators (such as Stagecoach) have ITSO pads, for
their own smartcards and local concessionary passes.

For many read virtually all, even the same ones round here, Safeguard,
Compass Travel ans White Bus, all have readers.

Post by Roland Perry
So they should be able to recognise them. Otherwise you would need
to show the driver.

I was wondering whether they coped with ITSO as well as Oyster.

Who is "they". No reason for any provincial bus companies to accept
Oyster.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2024-06-08 18:54:30 UTC

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 18:14:57 +0100

You are going to as much trouble as you pour scorn on me doing.

No hassle at all. Not sure why you think it would be.

Getting credit cards which aren't contactless is a struggle.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I wouldn't lay money on all of them doing that.

All the what: pads, or drivers? The drivers have to let me on, even if
the pad doesn't work.

If your card doesn't work they're not oblidged to let you on. It might have
been invalidated or expired.

There's a date printed on the front (in fact it's by far the biggest
typeface there), and I don't know of any process which invalidates them
other than death, and then the photo wouldn't match.

--
Roland Perry

M***@dastardlyhq.com

2024-06-09 08:14:46 UTC

On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:54:30 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 18:14:57 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Who said I don't have several cards? Only the credit card is contactless,

the

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
debit cards are not as I don't fancy my accounts being cleared out if I lose
my wallet and the banks giving refunds weeks down the line won't stop the
direct debits bouncing.

You are going to as much trouble as you pour scorn on me doing.

No hassle at all. Not sure why you think it would be.

Getting credit cards which aren't contactless is a struggle.

Cut 2cm into card to cut antenna. Card is now contactless. Takes 30 secs.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
If your card doesn't work they're not oblidged to let you on. It might have
been invalidated or expired.

There's a date printed on the front (in fact it's by far the biggest
typeface there), and I don't know of any process which invalidates them
other than death, and then the photo wouldn't match.

Well good luck.

Roland Perry

2024-06-09 17:09:03 UTC

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:54:30 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 18:14:57 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Who said I don't have several cards? Only the credit card is
contactless, the debit cards are not as I don't fancy my accounts
being cleared out if I lose my wallet and the banks giving refunds
weeks down the line won't stop the
direct debits bouncing.

You are going to as much trouble as you pour scorn on me doing.

No hassle at all. Not sure why you think it would be.

Getting credit cards which aren't contactless is a struggle.

Cut 2cm into card to cut antenna. Card is now contactless. Takes 30 secs.

And you seriously expect the general public to do that ?!?

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
If your card doesn't work they're not oblidged to let you on. It might have
been invalidated or expired.

There's a date printed on the front (in fact it's by far the biggest
typeface there), and I don't know of any process which invalidates them
other than death, and then the photo wouldn't match.

Well good luck.

No luck required.

--
Roland Perry

M***@dastardlyhq.com

2024-06-11 07:33:56 UTC

On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 18:09:03 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 19:54:30 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 18:14:57 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Who said I don't have several cards? Only the credit card is
contactless, the debit cards are not as I don't fancy my accounts
being cleared out if I lose my wallet and the banks giving refunds
weeks down the line won't stop the
direct debits bouncing.

You are going to as much trouble as you pour scorn on me doing.

No hassle at all. Not sure why you think it would be.

Getting credit cards which aren't contactless is a struggle.

Cut 2cm into card to cut antenna. Card is now contactless. Takes 30 secs.

And you seriously expect the general public to do that ?!?

Who cares? Its not complicated however.

Another plank trying to get through a tube gate with a iphone held me up
again yesterday. The moron tried 3 times to get the stupid device to work while
a queue built up behind him.

Theo

2024-06-06 15:13:47 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
(b) I've got a 'wearable' (like a watch strap with no watch) and while
there have been some teething problems [1], it's now successfully
paying using funds from an associated debit card.

Which one is it, OOI?

Post by Roland Perry
(3) The card number associated with the wearable [different from the
linked debit card] seems to be a secret (apart from the last four
digits). So how do I enrol it with my TfL account? I've asked the
wearable manufacturer for help and they say "nuffink to do with
us".

You could try downloading an app like 'NFC Tools' or 'NFC Reader' and it may
be able to quiz the wearable for its card number. I don't know the NFC
payment protocol, but contacted cards tell you that information if you talk
to the chip and I think NFC is similar.

(I think NFC access is more limited on iOS than Android so it may not be as
useful there)

Post by Roland Perry
(4) They charged me 10p on entry, and £2.80 on exit, but the fare is
£2.80, so what's happened to the 10p? And no, they haven't
refunded 10p separately.
[1] It doesn't work with my existing bank account and debit card, so I
had to get a new account with someone else, to test it.
[2] "You paid £2.80 GBP to CRV*TFL TRAVEL CHVICTO" received 7am, 5th
June; travel was on 3rd June. (Around midday, but that's not
important).

How does the 'wearable' interface with your bank? Is it a service like Apple
Pay? Do they take any transaction fees? Maybe they round up zero-cost
transactions or something?

Theo

M***@dastardlyhq.com

2024-06-06 16:05:48 UTC

On 06 Jun 2024 16:13:47 +0100 (BST)

Which one is it, OOI?

He doesn't need to , its tech for its own sake. He almost certainly has
contactless bank cards like everyone else and they're accepted on every london
bus and tube service.

Roland Perry

2024-06-07 21:04:31 UTC

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 06 Jun 2024 16:13:47 +0100 (BST)

Which one is it, OOI?

He doesn't need to , its tech for its own sake. He almost certainly has
contactless bank cards like everyone else and they're accepted on every london
bus and tube service.

I'm particularly averse to having to do the wallet-shuffle if I've got
two or three bags in tow. Could cause a multiple pile-up at the gate.

--
Roland Perry

M***@dastardlyhq.com

2024-06-08 09:08:11 UTC

On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 22:04:31 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 06 Jun 2024 16:13:47 +0100 (BST)

Which one is it, OOI?

He doesn't need to , its tech for its own sake. He almost certainly has
contactless bank cards like everyone else and they're accepted on every london
bus and tube service.

I'm particularly averse to having to do the wallet-shuffle if I've got
two or three bags in tow. Could cause a multiple pile-up at the gate.

The only delays I see at gates are muppets trying to persuade their apple pay
or google whatever-the-hell on their phones to cough up while a queue builds
up behind them.

Plus if you have a load of bags you'll be going through the luggage gate which
is slow to open anyway.

Roland Perry

2024-06-08 15:39:32 UTC

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 22:04:31 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 06 Jun 2024 16:13:47 +0100 (BST)

Which one is it, OOI?

He doesn't need to , its tech for its own sake. He almost certainly has
contactless bank cards like everyone else and they're accepted on every london
bus and tube service.

I'm particularly averse to having to do the wallet-shuffle if I've got
two or three bags in tow. Could cause a multiple pile-up at the gate.

The only delays I see at gates are muppets trying to persuade their apple pay
or google whatever-the-hell on their phones to cough up while a queue builds
up behind them.

That's because you haven't been behind me with my wearable and lots of
bags.

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Plus if you have a load of bags you'll be going through the luggage gate which
is slow to open anyway.

At what stage in this process do envisage people putting the plastic
back in the wallet, the wallet back in their jacket, and gathering up
the bags?

--
Roland Perry

M***@dastardlyhq.com

2024-06-08 16:02:15 UTC

On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 16:39:32 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Plus if you have a load of bags you'll be going through the luggage gate which
is slow to open anyway.

At what stage in this process do envisage people putting the plastic
back in the wallet, the wallet back in their jacket, and gathering up
the bags?

How do you think people have managed up until now? Perhaps they're just
better organised than you.

Roland Perry

2024-06-08 17:17:43 UTC

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 16:39:32 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Plus if you have a load of bags you'll be going through the luggage gate which
is slow to open anyway.

At what stage in this process do envisage people putting the plastic
back in the wallet, the wallet back in their jacket, and gathering up
the bags?

How do you think people have managed up until now? Perhaps they're just
better organised than you.

They create the jams. I'm now better organised by having the wearable,
so don't have to fiddle with the wallet while having both hands full
with bags.

--
Roland Perry

Clank

2024-06-06 16:07:01 UTC

Which one is it, OOI?

Post by Roland Perry
(3) The card number associated with the wearable [different from the
linked debit card] seems to be a secret (apart from the last
four digits). So how do I enrol it with my TfL account? I've
asked the wearable manufacturer for help and they say "nuffink
to do with us".

You could try downloading an app like 'NFC Tools' or 'NFC Reader' and it
may be able to quiz the wearable for its card number. I don't know the
NFC payment protocol, but contacted cards tell you that information if
you talk to the chip and I think NFC is similar.

Yes, you can. I don't think NFC Tools will do it with a single click
(certainly it requires a bit of a 'conversation' with the card, more than
just the initial NFC interrogation) but there are apps ("Banking Card
Reader" for example) in the Google AppStore which will show you the card
number and a load of other interesting details (like how many attempts you
have left before the PIN gets locked).

And yes, it does work with Google Pay virtual cards as well presented by a
watch or another phone. (GPay - and I presume Apple Pay - present a
virtual card number, but it is at least a static (to you) virtual card
number, it only changes if you force it to through some menu buried in the
wallet app - that's why it works OK with things like the daily caps on
TfL.)

I will agree with Roland though that it's a pretty shitty mechanism to
expect a normal person to have to handle, and TfL should come up with a
better way of binding virtual-card users to their TfL account.

Post by Theo
(I think NFC access is more limited on iOS than Android so it may not be
as useful there)

How does the 'wearable' interface with your bank? Is it a service like
Apple Pay? Do they take any transaction fees? Maybe they round up
zero-cost transactions or something?

Most likely the 10p was never actually charged. It's just a pre-auth, and
the settlement transaction was never sent. It's been a long time since I
worked hands on with the card payment protocols, but I don't think there's
actually any mechanism to cancel a preauth. You might be able to send a
settlement transaction with a value of 0 to make it immediately clear, but
I'm not sure if it would be accepted, and if it was the merchant would be
stuck with a transaction fee. If they just don't settle it, the 10p will
disappear after a few days as if it never happened once the authorisation
expires and no settlement transaction has been received by the bank.

Recliner

2024-06-06 16:38:47 UTC

Which one is it, OOI?

Post by Roland Perry
(3) The card number associated with the wearable [different from the
linked debit card] seems to be a secret (apart from the last
four digits). So how do I enrol it with my TfL account? I've
asked the wearable manufacturer for help and they say "nuffink
to do with us".

You could try downloading an app like 'NFC Tools' or 'NFC Reader' and it
may be able to quiz the wearable for its card number. I don't know the
NFC payment protocol, but contacted cards tell you that information if
you talk to the chip and I think NFC is similar.

Yes, you can. I don't think NFC Tools will do it with a single click
(certainly it requires a bit of a 'conversation' with the card, more than
just the initial NFC interrogation) but there are apps ("Banking Card
Reader" for example) in the Google AppStore which will show you the card
number and a load of other interesting details (like how many attempts you
have left before the PIN gets locked).
And yes, it does work with Google Pay virtual cards as well presented by a
watch or another phone. (GPay - and I presume Apple Pay - present a
virtual card number, but it is at least a static (to you) virtual card
number, it only changes if you force it to through some menu buried in the
wallet app - that's why it works OK with things like the daily caps on
TfL.)
I will agree with Roland though that it's a pretty shitty mechanism to
expect a normal person to have to handle, and TfL should come up with a
better way of binding virtual-card users to their TfL account.

Post by Theo
(I think NFC access is more limited on iOS than Android so it may not be
as useful there)

How does the 'wearable' interface with your bank? Is it a service like
Apple Pay? Do they take any transaction fees? Maybe they round up
zero-cost transactions or something?

With Uber, you get an email message after completing (and paying for) a
ride:

'… we have removed the authorisation hold that's triggered when you request
a trip. The adjustment could take a few minutes or up to a few days to
impact your account – it depends on your card issuer.'

Clank

2024-06-06 21:11:43 UTC

Post by Clank
Most likely the 10p was never actually charged. It's just a pre-auth,
and the settlement transaction was never sent. It's been a long time
since I worked hands on with the card payment protocols, but I don't
think there's actually any mechanism to cancel a preauth. You might be
able to send a settlement transaction with a value of 0 to make it
immediately clear, but I'm not sure if it would be accepted, and if it
was the merchant would be stuck with a transaction fee. If they just
don't settle it, the 10p will disappear after a few days as if it never
happened once the authorisation expires and no settlement transaction
has been received by the bank.

With Uber, you get an email message after completing (and paying for) a
'… we have removed the authorisation hold that's triggered when you
request a trip. The adjustment could take a few minutes or up to a few
days to impact your account – it depends on your card issuer.'

Indeed; my guess would be that there probably is a mechanism to cancel a
preauth these days (other than committing a transaction), but it is quite
likely not every issuer/acquirer supports it, and in those cases you'll be
waiting the 5 days (default) for the preauth to expire.

In the olden days, the "correct" way to handle a final transaction where
the amount was greater than the preauth, to avoid tying up more of the
customers' money than necessary, was to make two transactions - one for
the full value of the original preauth, and then a second auth+txn for the
extra.

Worth noting as well that the preauth expiry period can be different for
different merchants - the default is 5 days, but hotels/car-hire and
similar businesses have 30 day auths. This is negotiated between the
business and its Merchant Services provider (who are the people who decide
how your transactions are coded - every transaction has a code that
identifies the type of business as it goes through the payment systems;
this is also how, for example, Amex can prohibit gambling transactions, or
a credit card company can treat them as cash withdrawals for interest rate
calculations instead of purchases.)

Given that longer-than-5-day preauth periods can be negotiated, I don't
see any reason why shorter-than-5-day preauth could be a thing either for
modern businesses (like Uber, love them or hate them) that are doing all
their transaction settlement online and not waiting for overnight batch
jobs. (The default 5-day window allows for a preauth taken on a Friday to
not be settled until Monday when the next batch upload to the bank
happens, with a day or two of wiggle-room for fuckups (which do happen -
BTDTGTTS.) Nowadays you'd hope most businesses were doing settlement in
real-time, not in batch jobs, but...)

Roland Perry

2024-06-07 21:26:18 UTC

Tesco petrol pumps (I've not tried the wearable to see if it needs a
PIN, and only the very latest have contactless) used to pre-auth £100,
but some do £120. It takes a while for things to settle down if you
only buy say £50 worth (which is all my new car can take) whereas the
old car you still weren't full at £100. Apparently some people buy £10
on a day to day basis for cashflow reasons.

Post by Clank
Worth noting as well that the preauth expiry period can be different for
different merchants - the default is 5 days, but hotels/car-hire and
similar businesses have 30 day auths. This is negotiated between the
business and its Merchant Services provider (who are the people who decide
how your transactions are coded - every transaction has a code that
identifies the type of business as it goes through the payment systems;
this is also how, for example, Amex can prohibit gambling transactions,

And presumably how my original bank knew to decline purchases of
e-money.

Post by Clank
or a credit card company can treat them as cash withdrawals for
interest rate calculations instead of purchases.)

The wearable's universe only works with debit cards. Nowadays most Amex
are credit, not 'charge' cards, the latter maybe showing up as debit
cards???

Post by Clank
Given that longer-than-5-day preauth periods can be negotiated, I don't
see any reason why shorter-than-5-day preauth could be a thing either for
modern businesses (like Uber, love them or hate them) that are doing all
their transaction settlement online and not waiting for overnight batch
jobs. (The default 5-day window allows for a preauth taken on a Friday to
not be settled until Monday when the next batch upload to the bank
happens, with a day or two of wiggle-room for fuckups (which do happen -
BTDTGTTS.)

And of course (famous in other contexts) the longer gap between Maundy
Thursday and the day after Easter Monday.

Post by Clank
Nowadays you'd hope most businesses were doing settlement in
real-time, not in batch jobs, but...)

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2024-06-07 21:18:08 UTC

Which one is it, OOI?

Post by Roland Perry
(3) The card number associated with the wearable [different from the
linked debit card] seems to be a secret (apart from the last
four digits). So how do I enrol it with my TfL account? I've
asked the wearable manufacturer for help and they say "nuffink
to do with us".

You could try downloading an app like 'NFC Tools' or 'NFC Reader' and it
may be able to quiz the wearable for its card number. I don't know the
NFC payment protocol, but contacted cards tell you that information if
you talk to the chip and I think NFC is similar.

That brings up three different apps, none of which with that specific
name. Just tried "Credit card reader" and that does reveal the number,
but first you have to type in the last 4 digits, which is security
theatre because every till receipt has that on!

Post by Clank
which will show you the card number and a load of other interesting
details (like how many attempts you have left before the PIN gets
locked).

The wearable doesn't have a PIN (which could be a problem if a vendor
insists on one) and there's no field like that anyway.

Post by Clank
And yes, it does work with Google Pay virtual cards as well presented by a
watch or another phone. (GPay - and I presume Apple Pay - present a
virtual card number, but it is at least a static (to you) virtual card
number, it only changes if you force it to through some menu buried in the
wallet app - that's why it works OK with things like the daily caps on
TfL.)
I will agree with Roland though that it's a pretty shitty mechanism to
expect a normal person to have to handle, and TfL should come up with a
better way of binding virtual-card users to their TfL account.

Post by Theo
(I think NFC access is more limited on iOS than Android so it may not be
as useful there)

How does the 'wearable' interface with your bank? Is it a service like
Apple Pay? Do they take any transaction fees? Maybe they round up
zero-cost transactions or something?

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2024-06-07 21:02:39 UTC

Which one is it, OOI?

Astari (turns out to be a Dutch company).

I've got several of those which I've had for years. Only tried one so
far, and it sends me to Astari's new customer setup page (a bit like
you'd expect a QR code to do), rather than actually read out the
contents.

Post by Theo
(I think NFC access is more limited on iOS than Android so it may not be as
useful there)

How does the 'wearable' interface with your bank?

Rather badly. You link it to a bank card, but my bank sees a payment for
e-money and declares it high-risk and declines the transaction. I've had
to open a brand new account with a different bank (who don't seem so
fussy).

Post by Theo
Is it a service like Apple Pay? Do they take any transaction fees?
Maybe they round up zero-cost transactions or something?

They don't charge commission/fees, but do charge a fairly hefty
subscription if you want to link more than three cards. I can't see any
"rounding" and in any event TfL charges the card 10p, not zero.

I think it may however be a "pending" charge which they later rescind.
Haven't had time to check the actual bank statements but get pinged by
the bank on every charge (but they don't later say "Ah, but that one's
now been rescinded". (I have seen that with a charge for a particular
hospital car park, about ten minutes after I paid, but have no idea why
they did that. So I had to back out pay again).

--
Roland Perry

Theo

2024-06-07 22:40:36 UTC

Which one is it, OOI?

Astari (turns out to be a Dutch company).

Interesting, I'd not come across that before.

Post by Theo
How does the 'wearable' interface with your bank?

Post by Theo
Is it a service like Apple Pay? Do they take any transaction fees?
Maybe they round up zero-cost transactions or something?

They don't charge commission/fees, but do charge a fairly hefty
subscription if you want to link more than three cards. I can't see any
"rounding" and in any event TfL charges the card 10p, not zero.

Hmm, so it's not a service the bank has opted into (like Apple Pay) but a
wallet-type thing that proxies card transactions. A few Scandinavian
countries have 'real' banks that support it natively, but everyone else has
to use the Curve wallet.

AFAICR there's something a bit special with TfL's use of contactless credit
cards (or there was in the early days). I think that has mostly trickled
into standard practice for card networks now, but maybe there's something
that the proxying doesn't handle correctly. Especially if other countries
don't do whatever TfL does.

Post by Roland Perry
I think it may however be a "pending" charge which they later rescind.
Haven't had time to check the actual bank statements but get pinged by
the bank on every charge (but they don't later say "Ah, but that one's
now been rescinded". (I have seen that with a charge for a particular
hospital car park, about ten minutes after I paid, but have no idea why
they did that. So I had to back out pay again).

Does your bank app/website show 'pending' transactions separate from ones
which are committed? Did the 10p ever become non-pending?

It's also possible that the proxying adds extra delay in the process, ie TfL
refunds Curve, then Curve has to refund your bank. Since refunds can take a
week, perhaps in the worst case it could be double that.

It could cause timeouts that need to be unpicked - eg TfL asks Curve for a
hold of 10p, so Curve asks your bank for such a hold. If TfL hasn't
confirmed the pending transaction for some time, maybe Curve needs to
confirm it with your bank to prevent that transaction timing out. Then TfL
fails to confirm, so Curve has to issue a refund to your bank - which is
something that shows on a statement whereas cancelled pending charges don't.

Theo

Roland Perry

2024-06-08 05:35:06 UTC

Which one is it, OOI?

Astari (turns out to be a Dutch company).

Interesting, I'd not come across that before.

I like their slogan "Every tap starts conversations..." usually along
the lines "No that didn't seem to work.. hold on it's always a bit slow,
usually takes about five seconds...Ah yes, it's authorised now".

[Say that out loud and it takes about five seconds! During which your
average barman is getting a bit twitchy, because he's got other people
waiting. I don't tend to have conversations with supermarket
self-checkouts.]

On TfL it's a bit faster, which makes me think all they are doing is
capturing the card number, to be processed later, which accords with
other descriptions of how their system works.

Post by Theo
How does the 'wearable' interface with your bank?

Post by Theo
Is it a service like Apple Pay? Do they take any transaction fees?
Maybe they round up zero-cost transactions or something?

They don't charge commission/fees, but do charge a fairly hefty
subscription if you want to link more than three cards. I can't see any
"rounding" and in any event TfL charges the card 10p, not zero.

I've been having a very long conversation with them about this, and how
they really ought to mention it in their advertising. What they say is
something like "takes five minutes to set up". When almost everyone has
to separately apply for a Curve card, and wait few days for it to
arrive.

You then have to pair the Curve card with the bracelet, and attempt,
anyway] to pair your banking card(s) with Curve. To do the latter it's a
bit like the normal 2FA transaction when you buy something online,
except they don't use SMS as the channel, they ask the bank to require
you to go to your regular online banking to confirm. And what if you
don't have online banking with that card (noting that because it doesn't
accept credit cards, where people are more likely to have an App or
whatever with only skeleton functionality, you are talking about full
online banking, which then has its own 2FA checks to make sure it's
you).

Even if you do have online banking set up, it still takes a lot longer
than five mionutes.

Post by Theo
AFAICR there's something a bit special with TfL's use of contactless credit
cards (or there was in the early days). I think that has mostly trickled
into standard practice for card networks now, but maybe there's something
that the proxying doesn't handle correctly. Especially if other countries
don't do whatever TfL does.

This cropped up in an earlier thread in uk.r and it turns out that while
quite a few transport organisations have their own proprietary smart
cards/wallet schemes, there's not very many who have adopted the TfL CCC
model. It's hard to find out, and I haven't had time to full analysis,
but it looks like the biggest installed base is in Russia, which of
course has all sorts of issues for travellers from western countries at
the moment.

Some organisations have set up kludges using Apple|Google Pay and
pay-by-phone, but this bracelet is completely disjoint from that world.

Does your bank app/website show 'pending' transactions separate from ones
which are committed? Did the 10p ever become non-pending?

Yes, in fact it always has done that for conventional card transactions.

A test purchase I made on Thursday was still showing as 'Pending' late
last night, but has now moved to a permanent charge dated Friday. This
makes keeping track of this quite a headache.

Next time I'm in London (which will be in a couple of weeks) I'll try to
log things a bit more carefully.

Post by Theo
It's also possible that the proxying adds extra delay in the process, ie TfL
refunds Curve, then Curve has to refund your bank. Since refunds can take a
week, perhaps in the worst case it could be double that.
It could cause timeouts that need to be unpicked - eg TfL asks Curve for a
hold of 10p, so Curve asks your bank for such a hold. If TfL hasn't
confirmed the pending transaction for some time, maybe Curve needs to
confirm it with your bank to prevent that transaction timing out. Then TfL
fails to confirm, so Curve has to issue a refund to your bank - which is
something that shows on a statement whereas cancelled pending charges don't.
Theo

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2024-06-08 08:05:12 UTC

Which one is it, OOI?

Astari (turns out to be a Dutch company).

Interesting, I'd not come across that before.

I like their slogan "Every tap starts conversations..." usually along
the lines "No that didn't seem to work.. hold on it's always a bit slow,
usually takes about five seconds...Ah yes, it's authorised now".
[Say that out loud and it takes about five seconds! During which your
average barman is getting a bit twitchy, because he's got other people
waiting. I don't tend to have conversations with supermarket
self-checkouts.]
On TfL it's a bit faster, which makes me think all they are doing is
capturing the card number, to be processed later, which accords with
other descriptions of how their system works.

Post by Theo
How does the 'wearable' interface with your bank?

Post by Theo
Is it a service like Apple Pay? Do they take any transaction fees?
Maybe they round up zero-cost transactions or something?

They don't charge commission/fees, but do charge a fairly hefty
subscription if you want to link more than three cards. I can't see any
"rounding" and in any event TfL charges the card 10p, not zero.

I've been having a very long conversation with them about this, and how
they really ought to mention it in their advertising. What they say is
something like "takes five minutes to set up". When almost everyone has
to separately apply for a Curve card, and wait few days for it to
arrive.
You then have to pair the Curve card with the bracelet, and attempt,
anyway] to pair your banking card(s) with Curve. To do the latter it's a
bit like the normal 2FA transaction when you buy something online,
except they don't use SMS as the channel, they ask the bank to require
you to go to your regular online banking to confirm. And what if you
don't have online banking with that card (noting that because it doesn't
accept credit cards, where people are more likely to have an App or
whatever with only skeleton functionality, you are talking about full
online banking, which then has its own 2FA checks to make sure it's
you).
Even if you do have online banking set up, it still takes a lot longer
than five mionutes.

This cropped up in an earlier thread in uk.r and it turns out that while
quite a few transport organisations have their own proprietary smart
cards/wallet schemes, there's not very many who have adopted the TfL CCC
model. It's hard to find out, and I haven't had time to full analysis,
but it looks like the biggest installed base is in Russia, which of
course has all sorts of issues for travellers from western countries at
the moment.
Some organisations have set up kludges using Apple|Google Pay and
pay-by-phone, but this bracelet is completely disjoint from that world.

Does it have any form of security at all? We already know it doesn't have a
PIN, and doesn't generate one-time credit card numbers. For example, does
it have biometric security? If not, I'm not surprised that most credit
card companies and banks won't accept it. Effectively, it's a credit card
with no PIN.

https://devicesafety.org/check-these-security-features-on-your-smart-watch-before-you-buy-them/

Theo

2024-06-08 13:58:37 UTC

Post by Recliner
Does it have any form of security at all? We already know it doesn't have a
PIN, and doesn't generate one-time credit card numbers. For example, does
it have biometric security? If not, I'm not surprised that most credit
card companies and banks won't accept it. Effectively, it's a credit card
with no PIN.

Isn't that the same as a regular contactless card? In theory a card can ask
for your PIN, based on the bank's fraud tolerance, but in practice it takes
a lot of transactions before it does. Presumably at some point they can
text you to say 'you'll need to sign in to the app before your next payment
otherwise we'll block your card' which would have the same effect as
entering a PIN into a POS terminal.

What does it do above the contactless floor limit, say if you try to buy
something costing £100? Just refuse the transaction?

Apple Pay has no floor limit because of the additional security, and banks
have to agree to this when the implement it. Not sure how the liability
works with using Curve as a proxy.

I wonder if the transactions between Curve and your bank are Cardholder
Present or Cardholder Not Present? Can your bank suddenly require you to do
2FA like when you buy something online before processing the Curve
transaction?

Sounds like it's a big collection of corner cases of the card payment
system...

Theo

Roland Perry

2024-06-08 15:29:48 UTC

Isn't that the same as a regular contactless card? In theory a card can ask
for your PIN, based on the bank's fraud tolerance, but in practice it takes
a lot of transactions before it does.

Cards seem to vary (in the same shops) quite markedly.

Post by Theo
Presumably at some point they

Who is "they".

Post by Theo
can text you to say 'you'll need to sign in to the app before your next
payment otherwise we'll block your card' which would have the same
effect as entering a PIN into a POS terminal.
What does it do above the contactless floor limit, say if you try to buy
something costing £100? Just refuse the transaction?

A very good question, I'll have to try that out. Maybe next time I take
a party out to dinner, that'll exceed £100.

Post by Theo
Apple Pay has no floor limit because of the additional security, and banks
have to agree to this when the implement it. Not sure how the liability
works with using Curve as a proxy.

I suspect the bank at the top of the chain would say "We did exactly
what you asked, which was to top up the Curve wallet, and a few
milliseconds later presumably Curve spent that. Take it up with them."
(More work needed to scrutinise the Curve T&C small print).

Post by Theo
I wonder if the transactions between Curve and your bank are Cardholder
Present or Cardholder Not Present? Can your bank suddenly require you to do
2FA like when you buy something online before processing the Curve
transaction?

No, but they can refuse the transaction and then phone you up and ask
"WTF is going on here". Which is why the first card I tried to put at
the top of the chain is a non-starter.

Post by Theo
Sounds like it's a big collection of corner cases of the card payment
system...

Bleeding edge technology often is something like that.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2024-06-08 15:20:19 UTC

Which one is it, OOI?

Astari (turns out to be a Dutch company).

Interesting, I'd not come across that before.

I like their slogan "Every tap starts conversations..." usually along
the lines "No that didn't seem to work.. hold on it's always a bit slow,
usually takes about five seconds...Ah yes, it's authorised now".
[Say that out loud and it takes about five seconds! During which your
average barman is getting a bit twitchy, because he's got other people
waiting. I don't tend to have conversations with supermarket
self-checkouts.]
On TfL it's a bit faster, which makes me think all they are doing is
capturing the card number, to be processed later, which accords with
other descriptions of how their system works.

Post by Theo
How does the 'wearable' interface with your bank?

Post by Theo
Is it a service like Apple Pay? Do they take any transaction fees?
Maybe they round up zero-cost transactions or something?

They don't charge commission/fees, but do charge a fairly hefty
subscription if you want to link more than three cards. I can't see any
"rounding" and in any event TfL charges the card 10p, not zero.

I've been having a very long conversation with them about this, and how
they really ought to mention it in their advertising. What they say is
something like "takes five minutes to set up". When almost everyone has
to separately apply for a Curve card, and wait few days for it to
arrive.
You then have to pair the Curve card with the bracelet, and attempt,
anyway] to pair your banking card(s) with Curve. To do the latter it's a
bit like the normal 2FA transaction when you buy something online,
except they don't use SMS as the channel, they ask the bank to require
you to go to your regular online banking to confirm. And what if you
don't have online banking with that card (noting that because it doesn't
accept credit cards, where people are more likely to have an App or
whatever with only skeleton functionality, you are talking about full
online banking, which then has its own 2FA checks to make sure it's
you).
Even if you do have online banking set up, it still takes a lot longer
than five mionutes.

This cropped up in an earlier thread in uk.r and it turns out that while
quite a few transport organisations have their own proprietary smart
cards/wallet schemes, there's not very many who have adopted the TfL CCC
model. It's hard to find out, and I haven't had time to full analysis,
but it looks like the biggest installed base is in Russia, which of
course has all sorts of issues for travellers from western countries at
the moment.
Some organisations have set up kludges using Apple|Google Pay and
pay-by-phone, but this bracelet is completely disjoint from that world.

They "accept" it, but I'm fairly sure some then say "you are buying
e-money, and like eg gambling, we don't allow that.

Post by Recliner
Effectively, it's a credit card with no PIN.

I think they expect people to lose them less often, because you are
wearing them. Hoe often does one actually lose a watch[strap] that's
round one's wrist? In the mean time it's like a plastic card in between
those seemingly random intervals they ask you for a PIN when trying
contactless transaction.

Belt and braces, link it to a bank account with limited funds, which is
what I did when TfL first introduced CCC, and I used (or lent to
visitors) a prepaid card with one or two days pocket money loaded.

For numerous reasons this isn't a substitute for conventional plastic,
in its current incarnation.

Post by Recliner
https://devicesafety.org/check-these-security-features-on-your-smart-wat
ch-before-you-buy-them/

As it's not a smartwatch, very little of that applies.

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2024-06-08 20:15:06 UTC

Which one is it, OOI?

Astari (turns out to be a Dutch company).

Interesting, I'd not come across that before.

I like their slogan "Every tap starts conversations..." usually along
the lines "No that didn't seem to work.. hold on it's always a bit slow,
usually takes about five seconds...Ah yes, it's authorised now".
[Say that out loud and it takes about five seconds! During which your
average barman is getting a bit twitchy, because he's got other people
waiting. I don't tend to have conversations with supermarket
self-checkouts.]
On TfL it's a bit faster, which makes me think all they are doing is
capturing the card number, to be processed later, which accords with
other descriptions of how their system works.

Post by Theo
How does the 'wearable' interface with your bank?

Post by Theo
Is it a service like Apple Pay? Do they take any transaction fees?
Maybe they round up zero-cost transactions or something?

They don't charge commission/fees, but do charge a fairly hefty
subscription if you want to link more than three cards. I can't see any
"rounding" and in any event TfL charges the card 10p, not zero.

I've been having a very long conversation with them about this, and how
they really ought to mention it in their advertising. What they say is
something like "takes five minutes to set up". When almost everyone has
to separately apply for a Curve card, and wait few days for it to
arrive.
You then have to pair the Curve card with the bracelet, and attempt,
anyway] to pair your banking card(s) with Curve. To do the latter it's a
bit like the normal 2FA transaction when you buy something online,
except they don't use SMS as the channel, they ask the bank to require
you to go to your regular online banking to confirm. And what if you
don't have online banking with that card (noting that because it doesn't
accept credit cards, where people are more likely to have an App or
whatever with only skeleton functionality, you are talking about full
online banking, which then has its own 2FA checks to make sure it's
you).
Even if you do have online banking set up, it still takes a lot longer
than five mionutes.

This cropped up in an earlier thread in uk.r and it turns out that while
quite a few transport organisations have their own proprietary smart
cards/wallet schemes, there's not very many who have adopted the TfL CCC
model. It's hard to find out, and I haven't had time to full analysis,
but it looks like the biggest installed base is in Russia, which of
course has all sorts of issues for travellers from western countries at
the moment.
Some organisations have set up kludges using Apple|Google Pay and
pay-by-phone, but this bracelet is completely disjoint from that world.

They "accept" it, but I'm fairly sure some then say "you are buying
e-money, and like eg gambling, we don't allow that.

Post by Recliner
Effectively, it's a credit card with no PIN.

I think they expect people to lose them less often, because you are
wearing them. Hoe often does one actually lose a watch[strap] that's
round one's wrist? In the mean time it's like a plastic card in between
those seemingly random intervals they ask you for a PIN when trying
contactless transaction.
Belt and braces, link it to a bank account with limited funds, which is
what I did when TfL first introduced CCC, and I used (or lent to
visitors) a prepaid card with one or two days pocket money loaded.
For numerous reasons this isn't a substitute for conventional plastic,
in its current incarnation.

Post by Recliner
https://devicesafety.org/check-these-security-features-on-your-smart-wat
ch-before-you-buy-them/

As it's not a smartwatch, very little of that applies.

Exactly. It's a guide to the security features you're deliberately
sacrificing.

Roland Perry

2024-06-09 07:24:22 UTC

Post by Recliner
Effectively, it's a credit card with no PIN.

I think they expect people to lose them less often, because you are
wearing them. Hoe often does one actually lose a watch[strap] that's
round one's wrist? In the mean time it's like a plastic card in between
those seemingly random intervals they ask you for a PIN when trying
contactless transaction.
Belt and braces, link it to a bank account with limited funds, which is
what I did when TfL first introduced CCC, and I used (or lent to
visitors) a prepaid card with one or two days pocket money loaded.
For numerous reasons this isn't a substitute for conventional plastic,
in its current incarnation.

Post by Recliner
https://devicesafety.org/check-these-security-features-on-your-smart-wat
ch-before-you-buy-them/

As it's not a smartwatch, very little of that applies.

Exactly. It's a guide to the security features you're deliberately
sacrificing.

Analysis of security features first requires a list of the threat
vectors, something you are failing the provide.

The Met police recently announced that smartphones were the "most
stolen" item (mainly snatched from people's hands), but if you don't
have one in your hand, it's much harder to steal.

Also they aren't after the hardware (which these days is easily disabled
remotely, and of course if switched on is trackable to their lair) but
rather the information on the phone and insecure(sic) Apps which might
allow transfer of funds too easily.

Apparently some people store their passwords and PINs in the note-taking
facility on a phone!

In terms of universality, the wearable is somewhat oversold, because of
the way it only accepts a subset of bank payment cards, let alone any
other cards like Oyster, ITSO (as used by Freedom Passes) etc. It's
channelling the myth that all you need to survive in the world is a
single CCC.

I was at a large computer fair in the Midlands yesterday (and parking
the way I can't load the hotel rfid doorkey) despite having a
sophisticated online pre-booking scheme, the organisers only took cash
at the door for turn-up customers and similarly the car parking was
cash-only. No venue wifi either (which is slightly more surprising as
it's a fairly high profile conference centre attached to an
internationally branded 4* hotel).

Most of the vendors with stalls (and the bar) took CCC though. All of
which much more convenient with a wearable. I wouldn't accuse that
particular event of being susceptible to pickpockets, but elsewhere in
the City was a large and busy street fair, which could be another story.

Anyway, my App tells me I spent £59.74 on incidentals and purchases over
the weekend with the wearable, which is reasonably in tune with it being
linked to a bank account with £100 in, to start off with. (I didn't have
to pay to get into the event, or park, because I was an invited guest).

Meanwhile, back in Cambs, there's a monthly huge car boot sale just
outside Newmarket [an enclave of Suffolk], where last time I went, there
was no mobile coverage from *any* of the networks. Stick that in your
Apple Pay and smoke it!

A friend has an Apple Watch, quite expensive, but notes that while it
has some "fitness" functionality, it doesn't measure blood pressure.
Whereas my fitness watch does (but the wearable doesn't). There's still
some work to be done on the technology convergence.

And of course to find out how to enrol the wearable in TfL's app, which
is still near the top of my list. Even though it would be cheaper for me
to use my railcard-linked Oyster.

--
Roland Perry

Clank

2024-06-09 17:17:16 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
A friend has an Apple Watch, quite expensive, but notes that while it
has some "fitness" functionality, it doesn't measure blood pressure.
Whereas my fitness watch does (but the wearable doesn't). There's still
some work to be done on the technology convergence.

With the best will in the world, you just need to buy the converged
devices.

My Samsung watch does contactless payments AND all the usual fitness
functions (ECG, blood pressure*, steps, workout tracking etc. etc.)

(Oh, and to address one other part of the thread - yes it's waterproof,
and I've proven it in pools/jacuzzis a number of times.)

You can't go out there and buy some obscure device that nobody else has
ever heard of and then say "see, the technology just isn't there yet!"

* although I'll admit it's a bit of a faff, wanting to be calibrated once
a month against a cuff blood pressure sensor. After the initial novelty
wore off I confess I almost never use that particular feature, but then my
BP doesn't indicate any reasons to be concerned. If/when it does, I guess
it's something I might pay attention to, in which case a once-monthly
calibration probably won't be the biggest concern.

Roland Perry

2024-06-09 17:39:37 UTC

Is it autonomous, or does it need your phone nearby? Does it do Oyster/
ITSO as well as payment cards. Does it cost less than £100?

What happens when you try to *spend* more than £100 (a typical floor
limit). You can't stuff it in a C&P slot like you can a card.

Post by Clank
(Oh, and to address one other part of the thread - yes it's waterproof,
and I've proven it in pools/jacuzzis a number of times.)

Waterproof is a red herring that Muttley's NLP dragged up. I just said
"beach", and I don't go swimming.

Post by Clank
You can't go out there and buy some obscure device that nobody else has
ever heard of and then say "see, the technology just isn't there yet!"

They aren't that obscure, there are at least a dozen suppliers. But part
of what I'm testing/reviewing is their marketing material, which
over-sells it as far more converged than it actually is. I'm exploring
some of the situations where it's most egregiously over-sold, and/or
vendors who it doesn't work with because of triggering various
anti-fraud measures.

Post by Clank
* although I'll admit it's a bit of a faff, wanting to be calibrated once
a month against a cuff blood pressure sensor.

My separate fitness watch doesn't need calibrating like that, but is
surprisingly accurate. (Within about 2% perhaps).

Post by Clank
After the initial novelty wore off I confess I almost never use that
particular feature, but then my BP doesn't indicate any reasons to be
concerned. If/when it does, I guess it's something I might pay
attention to, in which case a once-monthly calibration probably won't
be the biggest concern.

Or you could simply take the blood pressure medication, and get one
which doesn't need calibrating.

--
Roland Perry

Clank

2024-06-09 20:37:17 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
A friend has an Apple Watch, quite expensive, but notes that while it
has some "fitness" functionality, it doesn't measure blood pressure.
Whereas my fitness watch does (but the wearable doesn't). There's
still some work to be done on the technology convergence.

Is it autonomous, or does it need your phone nearby? Does it do Oyster/
ITSO as well as payment cards. Does it cost less than £100?

It's entirely autonomous.

Oyster seems a pointless thing to want, given it supports contactless, and
ITSO is a dead technology that nobody cares about so I doubt it. In
general though anything that can be added to a Google Wallet is fine, I
know that does include some transit cards around the world, but personally
I just use it for contactless payments (including transit) and airline
boarding passes.

No, it doesn't cost less than 100 quid. I believe my watch sells for
around 300euro. Cheaper models are available of course, although I think
if you go down to the 200eur mark you sacrifice the blood-pressure
monitor.

Of course, using a watch/bracelet for fitness/health monitoring is so last
decade. These days that segment is all about rings, like Oura. I believe
Samnsung's will be launched in a month or two...

Post by Roland Perry
What happens when you try to *spend* more than £100 (a typical floor
limit). You can't stuff it in a C&P slot like you can a card.

The same thing that happens when I use any of my other cards - I enter my
PIN on the keypad, without sticking anything in a C&P slot.

The "requiring you to stick a card in a slot to enter a PIN" (aka EMV
Offline PIN) thing is a legacy technology still used only by retailers/
banking networks with ancient systems - so, the UK naturally. 100% of
retailers here have always-online rather than batch based systems (pretty
much mandated by law), so the situation where I would need a physical card
never arises.

Or you could simply take the blood pressure medication, and get one
which doesn't need calibrating.

Absolutely. By the time I need to worry about needing such medication,
I'd expect that to be standard, and I won't be actively hunting down
bizarre "solutions" from whatever the modern equivalent of the Innovations
Catalogue is.

Recliner

2024-06-09 21:07:33 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
A friend has an Apple Watch, quite expensive, but notes that while it
has some "fitness" functionality, it doesn't measure blood pressure.
Whereas my fitness watch does (but the wearable doesn't). There's
still some work to be done on the technology convergence.

Is it autonomous, or does it need your phone nearby? Does it do Oyster/
ITSO as well as payment cards. Does it cost less than £100?

It's entirely autonomous.
Oyster seems a pointless thing to want, given it supports contactless, and
ITSO is a dead technology that nobody cares about so I doubt it. In
general though anything that can be added to a Google Wallet is fine, I
know that does include some transit cards around the world, but personally
I just use it for contactless payments (including transit) and airline
boarding passes.
No, it doesn't cost less than 100 quid. I believe my watch sells for
around 300euro. Cheaper models are available of course, although I think
if you go down to the 200eur mark you sacrifice the blood-pressure
monitor.
Of course, using a watch/bracelet for fitness/health monitoring is so last
decade. These days that segment is all about rings, like Oura. I believe
Samnsung's will be launched in a month or two...

Post by Roland Perry
What happens when you try to *spend* more than £100 (a typical floor
limit). You can't stuff it in a C&P slot like you can a card.

The same thing that happens when I use any of my other cards - I enter my
PIN on the keypad, without sticking anything in a C&P slot.
The "requiring you to stick a card in a slot to enter a PIN" (aka EMV
Offline PIN) thing is a legacy technology still used only by retailers/
banking networks with ancient systems - so, the UK naturally. 100% of
retailers here have always-online rather than batch based systems (pretty
much mandated by law), so the situation where I would need a physical card
never arises.

Or you could simply take the blood pressure medication, and get one
which doesn't need calibrating.

Ah, the iconic Innovations Catalogue — that takes me back! I hadn't
actually noticed its demise, 21 years ago:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2957409.stm

I can just imagine Roland being one of its keenest customers…

Roland Perry

2024-06-10 06:49:44 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
A friend has an Apple Watch, quite expensive, but notes that while it
has some "fitness" functionality, it doesn't measure blood pressure.
Whereas my fitness watch does (but the wearable doesn't). There's
still some work to be done on the technology convergence.

Is it autonomous, or does it need your phone nearby? Does it do Oyster/
ITSO as well as payment cards. Does it cost less than £100?

It's entirely autonomous.
Oyster seems a pointless thing to want, given it supports contactless, and
ITSO is a dead technology that nobody cares about so I doubt it. In
general though anything that can be added to a Google Wallet is fine, I
know that does include some transit cards around the world, but personally
I just use it for contactless payments (including transit) and airline
boarding passes.
No, it doesn't cost less than 100 quid. I believe my watch sells for
around 300euro. Cheaper models are available of course, although I think
if you go down to the 200eur mark you sacrifice the blood-pressure
monitor.
Of course, using a watch/bracelet for fitness/health monitoring is so last
decade. These days that segment is all about rings, like Oura. I believe
Samnsung's will be launched in a month or two...

Post by Roland Perry
What happens when you try to *spend* more than £100 (a typical floor
limit). You can't stuff it in a C&P slot like you can a card.

The same thing that happens when I use any of my other cards - I enter my
PIN on the keypad, without sticking anything in a C&P slot.
The "requiring you to stick a card in a slot to enter a PIN" (aka EMV
Offline PIN) thing is a legacy technology still used only by retailers/
banking networks with ancient systems - so, the UK naturally. 100% of
retailers here have always-online rather than batch based systems (pretty
much mandated by law), so the situation where I would need a physical card
never arises.

Or you could simply take the blood pressure medication, and get one
which doesn't need calibrating.

Ah, the iconic Innovations Catalogue — that takes me back! I hadn't
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2957409.stm
I can just imagine Roland being one of its keenest customers

The modern equivalent is of course sponsored postings on Facebook. I'm
currently being inundated by ortho-shoes, which you don't really need
more than one pair of, so why continue to advertise to someone who
already bought them?

Unless of course there's a newer pair of shoes you can also use to make
contactless payments :)

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2024-06-10 06:44:42 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
A friend has an Apple Watch, quite expensive, but notes that while it
has some "fitness" functionality, it doesn't measure blood pressure.
Whereas my fitness watch does (but the wearable doesn't). There's
still some work to be done on the technology convergence.

Is it autonomous, or does it need your phone nearby? Does it do Oyster/
ITSO as well as payment cards. Does it cost less than £100?

It's entirely autonomous.
Oyster seems a pointless thing to want,

You need Oyster in London to be able to get railcard discounts. TfL have
long promised to add this functionality to CCC, but never delivered it.

Post by Clank
given it supports contactless, and ITSO is a dead technology that
nobody cares about so I doubt it.

London's Freedom Pass and all the regional concessionary cards are ITSO.
People also find it a good way to store annual season tickets securely
and without worrying that the alternative - a bit of card - will suffer
from catastrophic wear and tear. Some TOCs also put your photo on their
ITSO card, which reduces the bloat because otherwise you have to carry
independent photo-ID.

I agree that not many people load single-use tickets onto ITSO,
preferring to use their phones, but that brings us back to the perennial
issue of people fumbling to find phones and turn them on, rather than
just tapping the card. But it's never been properly marketed. With the
prospect of "Great British Railways" we may finally get a card that's
interoperable acros the whole network. Currently there's limited
interoperbility, for example just between Abellio franchises.

Post by Clank
In
general though anything that can be added to a Google Wallet is fine, I
know that does include some transit cards around the world,

Yes, there's a list of a couple of dozen (that I think I posted a couple
of years ago) and I am underwhelmed.

Post by Clank
but personally I just use it for contactless payments (including
transit) and airline boarding passes.

I feel some more mystery shopping coming on. Do for example EasyJet and
Ryanair support that? It's very unlikely (do to where they fly) I'd use
any other airlines at the moment.

Post by Clank
No, it doesn't cost less than 100 quid. I believe my watch sells for
around 300euro.

I did go into a phone shop about a year ago to investigate getting one,
but the sales staff refused to discuss it (even the price) unless I was
also buying a brand new Samsung phone.

Post by Clank
Cheaper models are available of course, although I think if you go down
to the 200eur mark you sacrifice the blood-pressure monitor.

I'm surprised the premium for the blood pressure monitor is that high.

Post by Clank
Of course, using a watch/bracelet for fitness/health monitoring is so last
decade. These days that segment is all about rings, like Oura. I believe
Samnsung's will be launched in a month or two...

A ring wouldn't be able to do blood pressure, and I also wonder how they
get all the other transducers, and a battery, into a ring. Do you need
to use a phone as the input/output device?

Post by Roland Perry
What happens when you try to *spend* more than £100 (a typical floor
limit). You can't stuff it in a C&P slot like you can a card.

The same thing that happens when I use any of my other cards - I enter my
PIN on the keypad, without sticking anything in a C&P slot.

OK, so the watch has its own card number and PIN, separate from payment
cards? I stopped to buy some petrol yesterday, hoping to try my wearable
on a pay-at-pump, but to my surprise the BP station had old pumps that
didn't offer it.

Post by Clank
The "requiring you to stick a card in a slot to enter a PIN" (aka EMV
Offline PIN) thing is a legacy technology still used only by retailers/
banking networks with ancient systems - so, the UK naturally.

I happen to live in the UK!

Post by Clank
100% of retailers here have always-online rather than batch based
systems (pretty much mandated by law), so the situation where I would
need a physical card never arises.

Or you could simply take the blood pressure medication, and get one
which doesn't need calibrating.

Well, you need a device that goes round your wrist, and has a battery in
it, to do BP measurements. My wearable has no battery, which is one of
the attractive features.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2024-06-10 07:29:01 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
A friend has an Apple Watch, quite expensive, but notes that while it
has some "fitness" functionality, it doesn't measure blood pressure.
Whereas my fitness watch does (but the wearable doesn't). There's
still some work to be done on the technology convergence.

Is it autonomous, or does it need your phone nearby? Does it do Oyster/
ITSO as well as payment cards. Does it cost less than £100?

It's entirely autonomous.
Oyster seems a pointless thing to want,

You need Oyster in London to be able to get railcard discounts. TfL
have long promised to add this functionality to CCC, but never
delivered it.

Post by Clank
given it supports contactless, and ITSO is a dead technology that
nobody cares about so I doubt it.

London's Freedom Pass and all the regional concessionary cards are
ITSO. People also find it a good way to store annual season tickets
securely and without worrying that the alternative - a bit of card -
will suffer from catastrophic wear and tear. Some TOCs also put your
photo on their ITSO card, which reduces the bloat because otherwise you
have to carry independent photo-ID.
I agree that not many people load single-use tickets onto ITSO,
preferring to use their phones, but that brings us back to the
perennial issue of people fumbling to find phones and turn them on,
rather than just tapping the card. But it's never been properly
marketed. With the prospect of "Great British Railways" we may finally
get a card that's interoperable acros the whole network. Currently
there's limited interoperbility, for example just between Abellio franchises.

Post by Clank
In
general though anything that can be added to a Google Wallet is fine, I
know that does include some transit cards around the world,

Yes, there's a list of a couple of dozen (that I think I posted a
couple of years

<cough> weeks

Post by Roland Perry
ago) and I am underwhelmed.

Post by Clank
but personally I just use it for contactless payments (including
transit) and airline boarding passes.

I feel some more mystery shopping coming on. Do for example EasyJet and
Ryanair support that? It's very unlikely (do to where they fly) I'd use
any other airlines at the moment.

Post by Clank
No, it doesn't cost less than 100 quid. I believe my watch sells for
around 300euro.

I did go into a phone shop about a year ago to investigate getting one,
but the sales staff refused to discuss it (even the price) unless I was
also buying a brand new Samsung phone.

Post by Clank
Cheaper models are available of course, although I think if you go
down to the 200eur mark you sacrifice the blood-pressure monitor.

I'm surprised the premium for the blood pressure monitor is that high.

A ring wouldn't be able to do blood pressure, and I also wonder how
they get all the other transducers, and a battery, into a ring. Do you
need to use a phone as the input/output device?

Post by Roland Perry
What happens when you try to *spend* more than £100 (a typical floor
limit). You can't stuff it in a C&P slot like you can a card.

The same thing that happens when I use any of my other cards - I enter my
PIN on the keypad, without sticking anything in a C&P slot.

OK, so the watch has its own card number and PIN, separate from payment
cards? I stopped to buy some petrol yesterday, hoping to try my
wearable on a pay-at-pump, but to my surprise the BP station had old
pumps that didn't offer it.

I happen to live in the UK!

Post by Clank
100% of retailers here have always-online rather than batch based
systems (pretty much mandated by law), so the situation where I would
need a physical card never arises.

Or you could simply take the blood pressure medication, and get one
which doesn't need calibrating.

Well, you need a device that goes round your wrist, and has a battery
in it, to do BP measurements. My wearable has no battery, which is one
of the attractive features.

--
Roland Perry

Graeme Wall

2024-06-10 07:47:43 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
I agree that not many people load single-use tickets onto ITSO,
preferring to use their phones, but that brings us back to the perennial
issue of people fumbling to find phones and turn them on,

You've not noticed that 70% of the popluation have the phone permanently
welded to their hand?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry

2024-06-10 11:02:36 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
I agree that not many people load single-use tickets onto ITSO,
preferring to use their phones, but that brings us back to the
perennial issue of people fumbling to find phones and turn them on,

You've not noticed that 70% of the popluation have the phone
permanently welded to their hand?

Only relative youngsters, so nothing like 70%

Also when travelling people often have bags, so no spare hand for a
phone.

--
Roland Perry

Graeme Wall

2024-06-10 15:04:49 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
I agree that not many people load single-use tickets onto ITSO,
preferring to use their phones, but that brings us back to the
perennial issue of people fumbling to find phones and turn them on,

You've not noticed that 70% of the popluation have the phone
permanently welded to their hand?

Only relative youngsters, so nothing like 70%

Depends on your definition of youngster

Post by Roland Perry
Also when travelling people often have bags, so no spare hand for a phone.

Somehow doesn't seem to encourage them to put it away.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry

2024-06-10 15:37:27 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
I agree that not many people load single-use tickets onto ITSO,
preferring to use their phones, but that brings us back to the
perennial issue of people fumbling to find phones and turn them on,

You've not noticed that 70% of the popluation have the phone
permanently welded to their hand?

Only relative youngsters, so nothing like 70%

Depends on your definition of youngster

<35yrs?

Post by Roland Perry
Also when travelling people often have bags, so no spare hand for a phone.

Somehow doesn't seem to encourage them to put it away.

A bag in each hand, plus a phone in one as well, is an accident waiting
to happen.

--
Roland Perry

Graeme Wall

2024-06-10 16:02:21 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
I agree that not many people load single-use tickets onto ITSO,
preferring to use their phones, but that brings us back to the
perennial issue of people fumbling to find phones and turn them on,

You've not noticed that 70% of the popluation have the phone
permanently welded to their hand?

Only relative youngsters, so nothing like 70%

Depends on your definition of youngster

<35yrs?

Also when travelling people often have bags, so no spare hand for a
phone.

Somehow doesn't seem to encourage them to put it away.

A bag in each hand, plus a phone in one as well, is an accident waiting
to happen.

Or a theft…

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Clank

2024-06-10 08:18:05 UTC

In general though anything that can be added to a Google Wallet is fine,
I know that does include some transit cards around the world,

Yes, there's a list of a couple of dozen (that I think I posted a couple
of years ago) and I am underwhelmed.

but personally I just use it for contactless payments (including
transit) and airline boarding passes.

I feel some more mystery shopping coming on. Do for example EasyJet and
Ryanair support that? It's very unlikely (do to where they fly) I'd use
any other airlines at the moment.

I haven't flown EasyJet in years, so can't comment for them, but
definitely yes for Ryanair.

Full disclosure though, while I find payments from the watch incredibly
useful and use it daily, boarding pass on the watch is more novelty than
practicality. It's "nice to know" it's there, but if I'm already juggling
a passport/ID card I've probably already got a printed copy of the
boarding pass or my phone to hand. I suppose that may change now we're in
Schengen and I get used to not actually needing to juggle the passport/ID
card.

I certainly wouldn't buy a wearable for the boarding pass thing - I would
for the payments. I suspect that in my lifetime boarding passes will in
any case become a thing of the past, and you'll just be identified at the
gate by your biometrics - at least two of the airlines I fly with
regularly (Lufthansa, AirAsia) have started rolling out at-gate face
recognition (so you don't need to show a boarding pass or ID - the ID is
collected and validated when you register for the service - just walk up
to the gate and let it recognise your face), and while I've yet to see it
actually working properly I can't help thinking it's just a matter of
time.

No, it doesn't cost less than 100 quid. I believe my watch sells for
around 300euro.

I did go into a phone shop about a year ago to investigate getting one,
but the sales staff refused to discuss it (even the price) unless I was
also buying a brand new Samsung phone.

Cheaper models are available of course, although I think if you go down
to the 200eur mark you sacrifice the blood-pressure monitor.

I'm surprised the premium for the blood pressure monitor is that high.

I think it's more model-stratification/differentiation than the cost of
the blood pressure monitor - in the last generation, blood pressure
monitor was only in the 'top end' devices. Likelihood is in the next
generation, it'll move down to mid, and then later it'll be a basic
feature.

Of course, using a watch/bracelet for fitness/health monitoring is so
last decade. These days that segment is all about rings, like Oura. I
believe Samnsung's will be launched in a month or two...

A ring wouldn't be able to do blood pressure, and I also wonder how they
get all the other transducers, and a battery, into a ring. Do you need
to use a phone as the input/output device?

I don't have one, but they are indeed impressive examples of
miniaturisation:

https://ouraring.com

I think "needing a phone" goes without saying. But then, "needing a
phone" is a pretty fundamental for life in the 21st century, so I don't
think that will exclude many. Even rural goatherders in the Apuseni
mountains have smartphones and high-speed Internet, after all. (Also some
tremendous cheeses.)

They can of course not do blood pressure from there, but allegedly
Samsung's is rumoured to include "blood flow monitoring", whatever that
means/is worth... Curious to see when the announcements come though, July
is the rumoured launch I believe.

Post by Roland Perry
What happens when you try to *spend* more than £100 (a typical floor
limit). You can't stuff it in a C&P slot like you can a card.

The same thing that happens when I use any of my other cards - I enter
my PIN on the keypad, without sticking anything in a C&P slot.

OK, so the watch has its own card number and PIN,

No, the watch has its own card number, but you use the same PIN as the
"real" bank card it is attached to (since the PIN is authenticated online
with the issuing bank, this is of course possible without the PIN ever
being shared with Google/whatever other intermediary you are using.)

Roland Perry

2024-06-10 11:42:07 UTC

Post by Clank
I think "needing a phone" goes without saying. But then, "needing a
phone" is a pretty fundamental for life in the 21st century, so I don't
think that will exclude many.

Apart from those who have a phone, but don't relish going into high-risk
situations carrying it.

I've implied that things left on beaches are prone to pilfering, and my
friend went paddling once and dropped his almost new iPhone in the sea.
Got replaced under some insurance or whatever, but inconvenient
nevertheless. According to the London Police, phones are now the "most
stolen" item, but it's been an issue for at least the last 20yrs.

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2024-06-10 11:57:37 UTC

Post by Clank
I think "needing a phone" goes without saying. But then, "needing a
phone" is a pretty fundamental for life in the 21st century, so I don't
think that will exclude many.

Apart from those who have a phone, but don't relish going into high-risk
situations carrying it.
I've implied that things left on beaches are prone to pilfering, and my
friend went paddling once and dropped his almost new iPhone in the sea.
Got replaced under some insurance or whatever, but inconvenient
nevertheless. According to the London Police, phones are now the "most
stolen" item, but it's been an issue for at least the last 20yrs.

Expensive mechanical watches are much more likely to be stolen than phones.
It's just that there are fewer available to steal.

Roland Perry

2024-06-10 12:11:35 UTC

Post by Clank
I think "needing a phone" goes without saying. But then, "needing a
phone" is a pretty fundamental for life in the 21st century, so I don't
think that will exclude many.

Apart from those who have a phone, but don't relish going into high-risk
situations carrying it.
I've implied that things left on beaches are prone to pilfering, and my
friend went paddling once and dropped his almost new iPhone in the sea.
Got replaced under some insurance or whatever, but inconvenient
nevertheless. According to the London Police, phones are now the "most
stolen" item, but it's been an issue for at least the last 20yrs.

Expensive mechanical watches are much more likely to be stolen than phones.

Really? The method the police specifically mentioned was grabbing the
phones from people's hands. Rather more difficult with a watch.

And I wouldn't take a Rolex onto the beach and leave it "hidden" under a
towel, either.

Post by Recliner
It's just that there are fewer available to steal.

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2024-06-10 12:24:19 UTC

Post by Clank
I think "needing a phone" goes without saying. But then, "needing a
phone" is a pretty fundamental for life in the 21st century, so I don't
think that will exclude many.

Apart from those who have a phone, but don't relish going into high-risk
situations carrying it.
I've implied that things left on beaches are prone to pilfering, and my
friend went paddling once and dropped his almost new iPhone in the sea.
Got replaced under some insurance or whatever, but inconvenient
nevertheless. According to the London Police, phones are now the "most
stolen" item, but it's been an issue for at least the last 20yrs.

Expensive mechanical watches are much more likely to be stolen than phones.

Really? The method the police specifically mentioned was grabbing the
phones from people's hands. Rather more difficult with a watch.

Knives are used by 'Rolex Rippers':

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-13184825/Is-time-luxury-watches-Thefts-London-Rolex-Rippers-rocket-60.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13073205/rolex-watch-thieves-london-west-end.html

Post by Roland Perry
And I wouldn't take a Rolex onto the beach and leave it "hidden" under a
towel, either.

Why would you take it off on the beach?

Roland Perry

2024-06-10 12:43:25 UTC

Post by Clank
I think "needing a phone" goes without saying. But then, "needing a
phone" is a pretty fundamental for life in the 21st century, so I don't
think that will exclude many.

Apart from those who have a phone, but don't relish going into high-risk
situations carrying it.
I've implied that things left on beaches are prone to pilfering, and my
friend went paddling once and dropped his almost new iPhone in the sea.
Got replaced under some insurance or whatever, but inconvenient
nevertheless. According to the London Police, phones are now the "most
stolen" item, but it's been an issue for at least the last 20yrs.

Expensive mechanical watches are much more likely to be stolen than phones.

Really? The method the police specifically mentioned was grabbing the
phones from people's hands. Rather more difficult with a watch.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-13184825/Is-time-lux
ury-watches-Thefts-London-Rolex-Rippers-rocket-60.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13073205/rolex-watch-thieves-lo
ndon-west-end.html

Thanks for confirming it's "rather more difficult".

Post by Roland Perry
And I wouldn't take a Rolex onto the beach and leave it "hidden" under a
towel, either.

Why would you take it off on the beach?

Most obviously because it spoils the over-all sun tan. But there's also
the risk of sand and water getting involved.

--
Roland Perry

Clank

2024-06-10 12:33:34 UTC

Post by Clank
I think "needing a phone" goes without saying. But then, "needing a
phone" is a pretty fundamental for life in the 21st century, so I don't
think that will exclude many.

Apart from those who have a phone, but don't relish going into high-risk
situations carrying it.

"Needing a phone [to interact with a smartring]" does not mean "needing a
phone at all times". Those smartrings won't stop measuring just because
you're away from your phone, so if you want to leave the phone behind to
go to the beach with just the ring, no problem.

Post by Roland Perry
I've implied that things left on beaches are prone to pilfering, and my
friend went paddling once and dropped his almost new iPhone in the sea.

Surprised to learn the iPhones aren't waterproof. All the phones (Samsung
flagships, but then iPhone play in the flagship price category) I've
bought in the last decade or more have been. I mean, I wouldn't go
swimming with them (although I have jacuzzied with them...), but a splash
in the sea wouldn't harm them. I would rinse the phone in fresh water as
soon as possible, though.

Post by Roland Perry
Got replaced under some insurance or whatever, but inconvenient
nevertheless. According to the London Police, phones are now the "most
stolen" item, but it's been an issue for at least the last 20yrs.

I suspect they are the "most stolen item" simply because "phones" is an
extremely large pot, and absolutely everyone has one. If you stole my
little-gay-manbag (won't leave home without it) you'd get a battery, a
phone, an umbrella, a pen and some USB cables. If you stole the next
guy's, you might get a pencil, a phone, a pocket watch, and a Pokemon
card. The next girl's might contain a compact, a some earrings, a purse,
and a phone...

I'm sure rather than leading on "police do nothing about crimewave of
manbag/handbag thefts" it's in their interests to publicise "phones are
the most stolen item, if only mobile networks were doing something about
it".

That said, the UK probably would make a dent in the market for stolen
phones if it introduced some sensible restrictions on selling SIM cards
(like having to show ID/registering who numbers are sold to). If there
were no burner-SIMs, there would be less of a market for burner-phones to
put them in.

Recliner

2024-06-10 12:50:50 UTC

Post by Clank
I think "needing a phone" goes without saying. But then, "needing a
phone" is a pretty fundamental for life in the 21st century, so I don't
think that will exclude many.

Apart from those who have a phone, but don't relish going into high-risk
situations carrying it.

Post by Roland Perry
I've implied that things left on beaches are prone to pilfering, and my
friend went paddling once and dropped his almost new iPhone in the sea.

All iPhones are at least 'splashproof', but later models are waterproof to
IP68 under IEC standard 60529 (maximum depth of 6 metres up to 30 minutes):

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/108039

So Roland's anecdote probably dates from many years ago. Why am I not
surprised?

Roland Perry

2024-06-10 13:10:22 UTC

Post by Recliner
All iPhones are at least 'splashproof', but later models are waterproof to
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/108039
So Roland's anecdote probably dates from many years ago.

I can tell you when it was, because he has a website where he posts his
holiday snaps.

Spring 2020.

Post by Recliner
Why am I not surprised?

I'm not surprised at your inevitable return to ad-homs. On the naughty
step for a while now.

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2024-06-10 13:37:36 UTC

Post by Recliner
All iPhones are at least 'splashproof', but later models are waterproof to
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/108039
So Roland's anecdote probably dates from many years ago.

I can tell you when it was, because he has a website where he posts his
holiday snaps.
Spring 2020.

Presumably with an elderly iPhone?

Post by Recliner
Why am I not surprised?

I'm not surprised at your inevitable return to ad-homs. On the naughty
step for a while now.

Thank you!

Theo

2024-06-10 13:58:18 UTC

Post by Recliner
All iPhones are at least 'splashproof', but later models are waterproof to
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/108039
So Roland's anecdote probably dates from many years ago.

I can tell you when it was, because he has a website where he posts his
holiday snaps.
Spring 2020.

Presumably with an elderly iPhone?

Everything since the 7 has been water resistant or better:
IP67: 7 series/8 series/X/XR/SE2/SE3
IP68 to 2 metres/30 mins: 11/XS/XS Max
IP68 to 4 metres/30 mins: 11 Pro/Max
IP68 to 6 metres/30 mins: 12 series onwards
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/108039

And they do test that:

Theo

Recliner

2024-06-10 14:35:56 UTC

Post by Recliner
All iPhones are at least 'splashproof', but later models are waterproof to
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/108039
So Roland's anecdote probably dates from many years ago.

I can tell you when it was, because he has a website where he posts his
holiday snaps.
Spring 2020.

Presumably with an elderly iPhone?

IP67: 7 series/8 series/X/XR/SE2/SE3
IP68 to 2 metres/30 mins: 11/XS/XS Max
IP68 to 4 metres/30 mins: 11 Pro/Max
IP68 to 6 metres/30 mins: 12 series onwards
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/108039
http://youtu.be/8reaJG7z-is

Yes, maybe it was an iPhone 6, first released in 2014?

Roland Perry

2024-06-10 15:34:27 UTC

Post by Recliner
All iPhones are at least 'splashproof', but later models are waterproof to
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/108039
So Roland's anecdote probably dates from many years ago.

I can tell you when it was, because he has a website where he posts his
holiday snaps.
Spring 2020.

Presumably with an elderly iPhone?

I think the chap on the naughty step didn't read "my friend went
paddling once and dropped his almost new iPhone in the sea".

For the avoidance of doubt, he always had the latest model and had that
one for maybe three months.

Post by Theo
IP67: 7 series/8 series/X/XR/SE2/SE3
IP68 to 2 metres/30 mins: 11/XS/XS Max
IP68 to 4 metres/30 mins: 11 Pro/Max
IP68 to 6 metres/30 mins: 12 series onwards
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/108039
http://youtu.be/8reaJG7z-is

Notwithstanding all that, his phone was an immediate write-off.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2024-06-10 12:48:29 UTC

Post by Clank
I think "needing a phone" goes without saying. But then, "needing a
phone" is a pretty fundamental for life in the 21st century, so I don't
think that will exclude many.

Apart from those who have a phone, but don't relish going into high-risk
situations carrying it.

That sounds like they have batteries and storage inside. Can you
confirm?

Post by Roland Perry
I've implied that things left on beaches are prone to pilfering, and my
friend went paddling once and dropped his almost new iPhone in the sea.

Surprised to learn the iPhones aren't waterproof.

His wasn't.

Post by Clank
All the phones (Samsung flagships, but then iPhone play in the flagship
price category) I've bought in the last decade or more have been. I
mean, I wouldn't go swimming with them (although I have jacuzzied with
them...), but a splash in the sea wouldn't harm them.

What about total immersion?

Post by Clank
I would rinse the phone in fresh water as soon as possible, though.

I suspect they are the "most stolen item" simply because "phones" is an
extremely large pot, and absolutely everyone has one.

Not absolutely everyone, dear Liza. Nor indeed with them, and in their
hand.

Post by Clank
If you stole my little-gay-manbag (won't leave home without it) you'd
get a battery, a phone, an umbrella, a pen and some USB cables. If you
stole the next guy's, you might get a pencil, a phone, a pocket watch,
and a Pokemon card. The next girl's might contain a compact, a some
earrings, a purse, and a phone...
I'm sure rather than leading on "police do nothing about crimewave of
manbag/handbag thefts" it's in their interests to publicise "phones are
the most stolen item, if only mobile networks were doing something about
it".

Mobile networks disable the connectivity when alerted (I was one of the
people who worked on that project, back in the day), but the phones
today are being stolen for the information on them, not the hardware.

Post by Clank
That said, the UK probably would make a dent in the market for stolen
phones if it introduced some sensible restrictions on selling SIM cards
(like having to show ID/registering who numbers are sold to). If there
were no burner-SIMs, there would be less of a market for burner-phones to
put them in.

See above.

--
Roland Perry

Clank

2024-06-10 13:12:33 UTC

Post by Clank
I think "needing a phone" goes without saying. But then, "needing a
phone" is a pretty fundamental for life in the 21st century, so I
don't think that will exclude many.

Apart from those who have a phone, but don't relish going into
high-risk situations carrying it.

"Needing a phone [to interact with a smartring]" does not mean "needing
a phone at all times". Those smartrings won't stop measuring just
because you're away from your phone, so if you want to leave the phone
behind to go to the beach with just the ring, no problem.

That sounds like they have batteries and storage inside. Can you
confirm?

Obviously. (You could try following the link I gave you.)

Post by Roland Perry
I've implied that things left on beaches are prone to pilfering, and
my friend went paddling once and dropped his almost new iPhone in the
sea.

Surprised to learn the iPhones aren't waterproof.

His wasn't.

What about total immersion?

For my Z-Flip5, it's 1.5 metres. I think my older not-bendy phones were
OK with more.

Post by Clank
I would rinse the phone in fresh water as soon as possible, though.

I suspect they are the "most stolen item" simply because "phones" is an
extremely large pot, and absolutely everyone has one.

Not absolutely everyone, dear Liza. Nor indeed with them, and in their
hand.

Anyone who is a functioning member of society in this century has a mobile
phone. End of. Even goddamned goatherders in deepest Kyrgystan have
mobile phones (I've met them.)

Anybody who doesn't have a phone right now is doing it out of some kind of
perverse need for attention. They are a sufficiently small set to be
ignored.

Post by Roland Perry
Mobile networks disable the connectivity when alerted (I was one of the
people who worked on that project, back in the day), but the phones
today are being stolen for the information on them, not the hardware.

Frankly, I find the idea that street robbers who are randomly snatching
phones from people's hands are doing it for the data held on them
incredibly implausible. Citation, as they say, needed.

Recliner

2024-06-10 10:57:37 UTC

Post by Clank
given it supports contactless, and ITSO is a dead technology that
nobody cares about so I doubt it.

London's Freedom Pass and all the regional concessionary cards are ITSO.

London's Freedom Pass is an Oyster card, which, I think, also has ITSO for
use outside the TfL area.

Roland Perry

2024-06-10 11:31:09 UTC

Post by Clank
given it supports contactless, and ITSO is a dead technology that
nobody cares about so I doubt it.

London's Freedom Pass and all the regional concessionary cards are ITSO.

London's Freedom Pass is an Oyster card,

OK, I thought it was the same as everyone else's concessionary card.

The card illustrated here has an ITSO style number on it:

<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/freedom-pass>

Post by Recliner
which, I think, also has ITSO for use outside the TfL area.

I wouldn't have expected any card to do two protocols, because it
creates built-in card clash.

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2024-06-10 11:42:36 UTC

Post by Clank
given it supports contactless, and ITSO is a dead technology that
nobody cares about so I doubt it.

London's Freedom Pass and all the regional concessionary cards are ITSO.

London's Freedom Pass is an Oyster card,

OK, I thought it was the same as everyone else's concessionary card.
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/freedom-pass>

Post by Recliner
which, I think, also has ITSO for use outside the TfL area.

I wouldn't have expected any card to do two protocols, because it
creates built-in card clash.

It's certainly an Oyster card in London.

Roland Perry

2024-06-10 12:14:45 UTC

Post by Clank
given it supports contactless, and ITSO is a dead technology that
nobody cares about so I doubt it.

London's Freedom Pass and all the regional concessionary cards are ITSO.

London's Freedom Pass is an Oyster card,

OK, I thought it was the same as everyone else's concessionary card.
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/freedom-pass>

Post by Recliner
which, I think, also has ITSO for use outside the TfL area.

I wouldn't have expected any card to do two protocols, because it
creates built-in card clash.

It's certainly an Oyster card in London.

I wonder why the illustration has an ITSO number on it? Is there an
Oyster symbol on the back - it has an ITSO symbol on the front.

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2024-06-10 13:08:35 UTC

Post by Clank
given it supports contactless, and ITSO is a dead technology that
nobody cares about so I doubt it.

London's Freedom Pass and all the regional concessionary cards are ITSO.

London's Freedom Pass is an Oyster card,

OK, I thought it was the same as everyone else's concessionary card.
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/freedom-pass>

Post by Recliner
which, I think, also has ITSO for use outside the TfL area.

I wouldn't have expected any card to do two protocols, because it
creates built-in card clash.

It's certainly an Oyster card in London.

I wonder why the illustration has an ITSO number on it? Is there an
Oyster symbol on the back - it has an ITSO symbol on the front.

Yes, it has an ITSO logo on the front, and Oyster on the back.

Would there be card clash? Won't it know what kind of reader is trying to
talk to it?

Graeme Wall

2024-06-10 15:09:01 UTC

Post by Clank
given it supports contactless, and ITSO is a dead technology that
nobody cares about so I doubt it.

London's Freedom Pass and all the regional concessionary cards are ITSO.

London's Freedom Pass is an Oyster card,

OK, I thought it was the same as everyone else's concessionary card.
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/freedom-pass>

Post by Recliner
which, I think, also has ITSO for use outside the TfL area.

I wouldn't have expected any card to do two protocols, because it
creates built-in card clash.

It's certainly an Oyster card in London.

Is it? Or is it just treated like a credit card by the barriers?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Recliner

2024-06-10 15:31:03 UTC

Post by Clank
given it supports contactless, and ITSO is a dead technology that
nobody cares about so I doubt it.

London's Freedom Pass and all the regional concessionary cards are ITSO.

London's Freedom Pass is an Oyster card,

OK, I thought it was the same as everyone else's concessionary card.
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/freedom-pass>

Post by Recliner
which, I think, also has ITSO for use outside the TfL area.

I wouldn't have expected any card to do two protocols, because it
creates built-in card clash.

It's certainly an Oyster card in London.

Is it? Or is it just treated like a credit card by the barriers?

No, it acts as an Oyster card on a TfL reader, and an ITSO card on ITSO readers on buses (rail barriers also recognise
it as an ITSL card, but of course it carries no rail tickets). It carries both logos.

Clank

2024-06-10 16:50:02 UTC

On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 16:09:01 +0100, Graeme Wall

Post by Clank
given it supports contactless, and ITSO is a dead technology that
nobody cares about so I doubt it.

London's Freedom Pass and all the regional concessionary cards are ITSO.

London's Freedom Pass is an Oyster card,

OK, I thought it was the same as everyone else's concessionary card.
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/freedom-pass>

Post by Recliner
which, I think, also has ITSO for use outside the TfL area.

I wouldn't have expected any card to do two protocols, because it
creates built-in card clash.

It's certainly an Oyster card in London.

Is it? Or is it just treated like a credit card by the barriers?

No, it acts as an Oyster card on a TfL reader, and an ITSO card on ITSO
readers on buses (rail barriers also recognise it as an ITSL card, but
of course it carries no rail tickets). It carries both logos.

Oyster and ITSO (and EMV, for contactless payments) all use ISO14443 for
near-field communication. ISO14443 natively supports multiple cards
(PICCs - Proximity Integrated Circuit Cards) communicating over the same
NFC link - i.e. you can have multiple card applications running on the
same chip in a physical card, each communicating over the same radio/
antenna - and each can be independently addressed by the reader.

The card ID field is I believe 4 bits, with 1111 reserved, so that means a
reader can speak to up to 15 different virtual cards simultaneously over
the same NFC connection.

When the reader says 'hello, card' (strictly REQA - REQuest command, type
A) to a card with multiple PICCS, all the PICCs on the card respond with
their own "hi, I'm here" (ATQA - Answer To ReQuest, type A), and then it's
up to the reader to iterate through and find out which ones it wants to
hold a more detailed conversation with.

So, in short, the reader can detect that there are two (or even three)
PICCS on a particular physical card - one Oyster, one ITSO, and one bank
card (on a hypothetical combined Oyster/ITSO/debit-card) and then make its
own decision as to which one it wants to use for a given transaction.

(It's actually possible to activate and talk to multiple PICCS
simultaneously, so the logic *could* be (but probably isn't) quite
complicated if it wanted to be - e.g. "talk to the ITSO card to find out
if the user has concessionary travel, then talk to the Oyster card to find
out if it has adequate balance for the journey, and finally fall back to
the payment card if not" - the limitation on behaviour is what can be
sensibly explained to a customer, not technical.)

(This is all quite different from "card clash" where you have multiple
*physical* cards each trying to set up their own communication channel,
and only one "wins".)

Roland Perry

2024-06-10 17:16:04 UTC

Post by Clank
Oyster and ITSO (and EMV, for contactless payments) all use ISO14443 for
near-field communication. ISO14443 natively supports multiple cards
(PICCs - Proximity Integrated Circuit Cards) communicating over the same
NFC link - i.e. you can have multiple card applications running on the
same chip in a physical card, each communicating over the same radio/
antenna - and each can be independently addressed by the reader.
The card ID field is I believe 4 bits, with 1111 reserved, so that means a
reader can speak to up to 15 different virtual cards simultaneously over
the same NFC connection.
When the reader says 'hello, card' (strictly REQA - REQuest command, type
A) to a card with multiple PICCS, all the PICCs on the card respond with
their own "hi, I'm here" (ATQA - Answer To ReQuest, type A), and then it's
up to the reader to iterate through and find out which ones it wants to
hold a more detailed conversation with.
So, in short, the reader can detect that there are two (or even three)
PICCS on a particular physical card - one Oyster, one ITSO, and one bank
card (on a hypothetical combined Oyster/ITSO/debit-card) and then make its
own decision as to which one it wants to use for a given transaction.
(It's actually possible to activate and talk to multiple PICCS
simultaneously, so the logic *could* be (but probably isn't) quite
complicated if it wanted to be - e.g. "talk to the ITSO card to find out
if the user has concessionary travel, then talk to the Oyster card to find
out if it has adequate balance for the journey, and finally fall back to
the payment card if not" - the limitation on behaviour is what can be
sensibly explained to a customer, not technical.)
(This is all quite different from "card clash" where you have multiple
*physical* cards each trying to set up their own communication channel,
and only one "wins".)

Why, then, did Barclays have to withdraw their "OnePulse" credit card
which also did Oyster, when TfL upgraded their pads to detect CCC, and
this blamed on inherent "card clash".

--
Roland Perry

Clank

2024-06-10 17:39:40 UTC

Post by Clank
Oyster and ITSO (and EMV, for contactless payments) all use ISO14443 for
near-field communication. ISO14443 natively supports multiple cards
(PICCs - Proximity Integrated Circuit Cards) communicating over the same
NFC link - i.e. you can have multiple card applications running on the
same chip in a physical card, each communicating over the same radio/
antenna - and each can be independently addressed by the reader.
The card ID field is I believe 4 bits, with 1111 reserved, so that means
a reader can speak to up to 15 different virtual cards simultaneously
over the same NFC connection.
When the reader says 'hello, card' (strictly REQA - REQuest command,
type A) to a card with multiple PICCS, all the PICCs on the card respond
with their own "hi, I'm here" (ATQA - Answer To ReQuest, type A), and
then it's up to the reader to iterate through and find out which ones it
wants to hold a more detailed conversation with.
So, in short, the reader can detect that there are two (or even three)
PICCS on a particular physical card - one Oyster, one ITSO, and one bank
card (on a hypothetical combined Oyster/ITSO/debit-card) and then make
its own decision as to which one it wants to use for a given
transaction.
(It's actually possible to activate and talk to multiple PICCS
simultaneously, so the logic *could* be (but probably isn't) quite
complicated if it wanted to be - e.g. "talk to the ITSO card to find out
if the user has concessionary travel, then talk to the Oyster card to
find out if it has adequate balance for the journey, and finally fall
back to the payment card if not" - the limitation on behaviour is what
can be sensibly explained to a customer, not technical.)
(This is all quite different from "card clash" where you have multiple
*physical* cards each trying to set up their own communication channel,
and only one "wins".)

Why, then, did Barclays have to withdraw their "OnePulse" credit card
which also did Oyster, when TfL upgraded their pads to detect CCC, and
this blamed on inherent "card clash".

Because Barclays OnePulse credit card was a gimmick, probably a credit
card with an Oyster card crudely duct-taped onto the back, rather than
doing the job properly.

Do you really think the likes of Barclays retail (as opposed to investment
banking) divisions employ a single competent engineer? There's a reason
FinTech exists - it's not because they are developing particularly
advanced technology, it's because the traditional banking sector is
manifestly incompetent at it.

Roland Perry

2024-06-10 18:18:23 UTC

Post by Clank
(This is all quite different from "card clash" where you have multiple
*physical* cards each trying to set up their own communication channel,
and only one "wins".)

Why, then, did Barclays have to withdraw their "OnePulse" credit card
which also did Oyster, when TfL upgraded their pads to detect CCC, and
this blamed on inherent "card clash".

Because Barclays OnePulse credit card was a gimmick, probably a credit
card with an Oyster card crudely duct-taped onto the back, rather than
doing the job properly.
Do you really think the likes of Barclays retail (as opposed to investment
banking) divisions employ a single competent engineer? There's a reason
FinTech exists - it's not because they are developing particularly
advanced technology, it's because the traditional banking sector is
manifestly incompetent at it.

I've been dabbling with FinTech (a spin-off from my new wearable) and
they have absolutely no idea about usability of apps and so on. One of
the cards jumped the shark today, and I can't even find out how to
cancel it. But I could "freeze" it. So maybe in a few years time of no
usage they'll get the message.

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2024-06-10 20:53:55 UTC

Why, then, did Barclays have to withdraw their "OnePulse" credit card
which also did Oyster, when TfL upgraded their pads to detect CCC, and
this blamed on inherent "card clash".

Probably, because it didn't know which to use with readers that would
accept both. That's not a problem that occurs with Freedom Passes.

Graeme Wall

2024-06-10 15:07:50 UTC

Post by Clank
given it supports contactless, and ITSO is a dead technology that
nobody cares about so I doubt it.

London's Freedom Pass and all the regional concessionary cards are ITSO.

London's Freedom Pass is an Oyster card,

OK, I thought it was the same as everyone else's concessionary card.
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/freedom-pass>

And has the ITSO logo on it. It looks identical to my bus pass.

Post by Recliner
which, I think, also has ITSO for use outside the TfL area.

I wouldn't have expected any card to do two protocols, because it
creates built-in card clash.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Recliner

2024-06-10 15:31:23 UTC

Post by Clank
given it supports contactless, and ITSO is a dead technology that
nobody cares about so I doubt it.

London's Freedom Pass and all the regional concessionary cards are ITSO.

London's Freedom Pass is an Oyster card,

OK, I thought it was the same as everyone else's concessionary card.
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/freedom-pass>

And has the ITSO logo on it. It looks identical to my bus pass.

The back doesn't.

Graeme Wall

2024-06-10 16:01:17 UTC

Post by Clank
given it supports contactless, and ITSO is a dead technology that
nobody cares about so I doubt it.

London's Freedom Pass and all the regional concessionary cards are ITSO.

London's Freedom Pass is an Oyster card,

OK, I thought it was the same as everyone else's concessionary card.
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/freedom-pass>

And has the ITSO logo on it. It looks identical to my bus pass.

The back doesn't.

I can't see the back from here :-)

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Theo

2024-06-10 10:11:01 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
They "accept" it, but I'm fairly sure some then say "you are buying
e-money, and like eg gambling, we don't allow that.

That could be why they don't support credit cards, because to the CC company
it looks like you're making a cash advance to Curve. That's either banned
or immediately starts the CC's expensive cash advance interest rate, neither
of which the user is expecting.

Theo

Roland Perry

2024-06-10 11:06:51 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
They "accept" it, but I'm fairly sure some then say "you are buying
e-money, and like eg gambling, we don't allow that.

That could be why they don't support credit cards, because to the CC company
it looks like you're making a cash advance to Curve.

Curve can be linked to credit cards, it's just the naked wearable which
can't.

Post by Theo
That's either banned or immediately starts the CC's expensive cash
advance interest rate, neither of which the user is expecting.
Theo

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2024-06-06 15:31:40 UTC

Presumably via the Google Pay account on your phone?

Post by Roland Perry
(1) Like other vendors it takes two or three seconds for TfL gates to
accept it.
(2) It charges 10p on entry which flashes up on the app straight
away. But the overnight total-for-the-day doesn't come though
until [straw poll] 10pm the following day, or 7am[2] the day
after that.
(3) The card number associated with the wearable [different from the
linked debit card] seems to be a secret (apart from the last four
digits). So how do I enrol it with my TfL account? I've asked the
wearable manufacturer for help and they say "nuffink to do with
us".

It's a new one-time-use number each time, so it's more secure: crooked
vendors can't put additional charges through subsequently. You need to
provide the details of the card linked to Google Pay.

Post by Roland Perry
(4) They charged me 10p on entry, and £2.80 on exit, but the fare is
£2.80, so what's happened to the 10p? And no, they haven't
refunded 10p separately.

The 10p charge was to validate the card, and gets cancelled once the day's
payment is made.

Post by Roland Perry
[1] It doesn't work with my existing bank account and debit card, so I
had to get a new account with someone else, to test it.
[2] "You paid £2.80 GBP to CRV*TFL TRAVEL CHVICTO" received 7am, 5th
June; travel was on 3rd June. (Around midday, but that's not
important).

Yes, I think that's normal. The TfL charging 'day' runs from 04:30 and ends
on 04:29 the next day. Allowing for any delays getting the data from
offline readers, the day's processing can't start for a few hours.

Roland Perry

2024-06-07 09:29:21 UTC

Presumably via the Google Pay account on your phone?

No. It's a parallel universe to that.

It's a new one-time-use number each time,

No, it's the same number each time (well, same last 4 digits which is
probably an indication. Confirmed by my receipts and talking to the
wearable people.

Post by Recliner
so it's more secure: crooked
vendors can't put additional charges through subsequently. You need to
provide the details of the card linked to Google Pay.

If I provide that to TfL (assuming that's the scheme, which it isn't)
would that be good enough to register an account with them? All they see
is the wearable's card number.

Post by Roland Perry
(4) They charged me 10p on entry, and £2.80 on exit, but the fare is
£2.80, so what's happened to the 10p? And no, they haven't
refunded 10p separately.

The 10p charge was to validate the card, and gets cancelled once the day's
payment is made.

Ah, so it never finds its way to the fundholding bank. Except it does
show up a a charge when you make it. Maybe goes into "pending" then
disappears.

In this case it's taking 26.5hrs.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2024-06-09 16:57:30 UTC