Discussion:
Class 484
(too old to reply)
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-04-15 09:19:53 UTC
Permalink
I finally got around to riding the 484s on the isle of wight. Vivarail did a
very nice job. Interesting contrast between the sound of the new traction
inverters and the LU DC motors which they retained.

Makes me wonder , if a small company managed to refurbish these trains so well
why didn't LU do it instead of buying entirely new S Stock trains? I assume
there must have been good reasons not to.
Graeme Wall
2024-04-15 09:23:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I finally got around to riding the 484s on the isle of wight. Vivarail did a
very nice job. Interesting contrast between the sound of the new traction
inverters and the LU DC motors which they retained.
Makes me wonder , if a small company managed to refurbish these trains so well
why didn't LU do it instead of buying entirely new S Stock trains? I assume
there must have been good reasons not to.
Trundling up and down the Island Line or the Greenford loop is a lot
less taxing than operating the Metropolitan lines out to Amersham and
Chesham day in and day out.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-04-15 09:36:37 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 10:23:41 +0100
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I finally got around to riding the 484s on the isle of wight. Vivarail did a
very nice job. Interesting contrast between the sound of the new traction
inverters and the LU DC motors which they retained.
Makes me wonder , if a small company managed to refurbish these trains so
well
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
why didn't LU do it instead of buying entirely new S Stock trains? I assume
there must have been good reasons not to.
Trundling up and down the Island Line or the Greenford loop is a lot
less taxing than operating the Metropolitan lines out to Amersham and
Chesham day in and day out.
I'm not so sure. The track on the IOW is pretty rough still with the train
probably doing 40-50 along it and the trains get covered in salt spray on Ryde
Pier in windy weather.
Marland
2024-04-15 10:06:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 10:23:41 +0100
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I finally got around to riding the 484s on the isle of wight. Vivarail did a
very nice job. Interesting contrast between the sound of the new traction
inverters and the LU DC motors which they retained.
Makes me wonder , if a small company managed to refurbish these trains so
well
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
why didn't LU do it instead of buying entirely new S Stock trains? I assume
there must have been good reasons not to.
Trundling up and down the Island Line or the Greenford loop is a lot
less taxing than operating the Metropolitan lines out to Amersham and
Chesham day in and day out.
I'm not so sure. The track on the IOW is pretty rough still with the train
probably doing 40-50 along it and the trains get covered in salt spray on Ryde
Pier in windy weather.
At the moment there is a shortage of working units which is why the
timetable has been stretched.
One unit has been damaged by flooding but wheel wear caused by poor profile
of the older track has meant the wheels are at the scrap stage on others
.Apparently only one firm can easily make new ones but it was put out of
to tender anyway. No other firm came forward so that just wasted time.
Once gWr bought the assets of Vivarail as both SWR and gWr are both first
group it looks like some wheels may be sourced from the pool of vehicles
but will need re profiling from LU std to NR std.
Trouble is the old track on the island is thought to have worn to its own
profile and nobody knows what it is.

GH
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-04-15 10:30:39 UTC
Permalink
On 15 Apr 2024 10:06:04 GMT
Post by Marland
At the moment there is a shortage of working units which is why the
timetable has been stretched.
One unit has been damaged by flooding but wheel wear caused by poor profile
of the older track has meant the wheels are at the scrap stage on others
..Apparently only one firm can easily make new ones but it was put out of
to tender anyway. No other firm came forward so that just wasted time.
Once gWr bought the assets of Vivarail as both SWR and gWr are both first
group it looks like some wheels may be sourced from the pool of vehicles
but will need re profiling from LU std to NR std.
Trouble is the old track on the island is thought to have worn to its own
profile and nobody knows what it is.
I can't remember the last time I rode on track that had so many rail joints.
It was constant clickety clack, like something from the 19th century.
Graeme Wall
2024-04-15 10:25:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 10:23:41 +0100
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I finally got around to riding the 484s on the isle of wight. Vivarail did a
very nice job. Interesting contrast between the sound of the new traction
inverters and the LU DC motors which they retained.
Makes me wonder , if a small company managed to refurbish these trains so
well
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
why didn't LU do it instead of buying entirely new S Stock trains? I assume
there must have been good reasons not to.
Trundling up and down the Island Line or the Greenford loop is a lot
less taxing than operating the Metropolitan lines out to Amersham and
Chesham day in and day out.
I'm not so sure. The track on the IOW is pretty rough still with the train
probably doing 40-50 along it and the trains get covered in salt spray on Ryde
Pier in windy weather.
Aluminium bodies aren't they?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Blueshirt
2024-04-15 10:27:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 10:23:41 +0100
Post by Graeme Wall
Trundling up and down the Island Line or the Greenford
loop is a lot less taxing than operating the Metropolitan
lines out to Amersham and Chesham day in and day out.
I'm not so sure. The track on the IOW is pretty rough still
with the train probably doing 40-50 along it and the trains
get covered in salt spray on Ryde Pier in windy weather.
Aluminium bodies aren't they?
Oh oh... corrosion !!!

I think the depot on the Isle of Weight is prone to floods too...
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-04-15 10:43:57 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 11:25:08 +0100
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 10:23:41 +0100
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I finally got around to riding the 484s on the isle of wight. Vivarail did
a
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
very nice job. Interesting contrast between the sound of the new traction
inverters and the LU DC motors which they retained.
Makes me wonder , if a small company managed to refurbish these trains so
well
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
why didn't LU do it instead of buying entirely new S Stock trains? I assume
there must have been good reasons not to.
Trundling up and down the Island Line or the Greenford loop is a lot
less taxing than operating the Metropolitan lines out to Amersham and
Chesham day in and day out.
I'm not so sure. The track on the IOW is pretty rough still with the train
probably doing 40-50 along it and the trains get covered in salt spray on
Ryde
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Pier in windy weather.
Aluminium bodies aren't they?
I don't think the bodywork is the issue , more the underframe equipment and
bogies.
Sam Wilson
2024-04-15 13:24:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 11:25:08 +0100
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 10:23:41 +0100
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I finally got around to riding the 484s on the isle of wight. Vivarail did
a
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
very nice job. Interesting contrast between the sound of the new traction
inverters and the LU DC motors which they retained.
Makes me wonder , if a small company managed to refurbish these trains so
well
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
why didn't LU do it instead of buying entirely new S Stock trains? I assume
there must have been good reasons not to.
Trundling up and down the Island Line or the Greenford loop is a lot
less taxing than operating the Metropolitan lines out to Amersham and
Chesham day in and day out.
I'm not so sure. The track on the IOW is pretty rough still with the train
probably doing 40-50 along it and the trains get covered in salt spray on
Ryde
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Pier in windy weather.
Aluminium bodies aren't they?
I don't think the bodywork is the issue , more the underframe equipment and
bogies.
Steel underframes? Are they fitted with sacrificial anodes?

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-04-15 15:50:36 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 13:24:50 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I don't think the bodywork is the issue , more the underframe equipment and
bogies.
Steel underframes?
They certainly look like steel. We any trains in the 70s built with aluminium
underframes?
Post by Sam Wilson
Are they fitted with sacrificial anodes?
Beats me.
Alan Lee
2024-04-15 13:38:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Trundling up and down the Island Line or the Greenford loop is a lot
less taxing than operating the Metropolitan lines out to Amersham and
Chesham day in and day out.
In January, the service was reduced to one train an hour from 2 per hour
due to the wheels wearing out, and not enough trains available to cover
the turns required. SWR said it should be sorted for the Easter and Whit
holidays, so presumably in between they were back to one train per
hour.I cant see that happening on the Metropolitan.
What is it with the Island line? Too tight curves? Badly cambered and
profiled track?
Graeme Wall
2024-04-15 14:45:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Lee
Post by Graeme Wall
Trundling up and down the Island Line or the Greenford loop is a lot
less taxing than operating the Metropolitan lines out to Amersham and
Chesham day in and day out.
In January, the service was reduced to one train an hour from 2 per hour
due to the wheels wearing out, and not enough trains available to cover
the turns required. SWR said it should be sorted for the Easter and Whit
holidays, so presumably in between they were back to one train per
hour.I cant see that happening on the Metropolitan.
What is it with the Island line? Too tight curves? Badly cambered and
profiled track?
The track needed replacing 40 years ago, it doesn't appear to have a
recognisable profile so that regardless whether the wheels are profiled
for Network Rail or TfL profiles, neither of them match.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Marland
2024-04-15 15:18:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Alan Lee
Post by Graeme Wall
Trundling up and down the Island Line or the Greenford loop is a lot
less taxing than operating the Metropolitan lines out to Amersham and
Chesham day in and day out.
In January, the service was reduced to one train an hour from 2 per hour
due to the wheels wearing out, and not enough trains available to cover
the turns required. SWR said it should be sorted for the Easter and Whit
holidays, so presumably in between they were back to one train per
hour.I cant see that happening on the Metropolitan.
What is it with the Island line? Too tight curves? Badly cambered and
profiled track?
The track needed replacing 40 years ago, it doesn't appear to have a
recognisable profile so that regardless whether the wheels are profiled
for Network Rail or TfL profiles, neither of them match.
A Wight state to get into.

Though I suppose getting a rail grinder to the Island isn’t that straight
forward and while Caulkheads might cope the ancient Overners who have moved
there to die will be writing to all and sundry to complain about the noise.

GH
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-04-15 15:54:32 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 14:38:54 +0100
Post by Alan Lee
Post by Graeme Wall
Trundling up and down the Island Line or the Greenford loop is a lot
less taxing than operating the Metropolitan lines out to Amersham and
Chesham day in and day out.
In January, the service was reduced to one train an hour from 2 per hour
due to the wheels wearing out, and not enough trains available to cover
Seemed to be 1 train every half hour in both directions when we used it last
week so perhaps problem solved?
Post by Alan Lee
the turns required. SWR said it should be sorted for the Easter and Whit
holidays, so presumably in between they were back to one train per
hour.I cant see that happening on the Metropolitan.
What is it with the Island line? Too tight curves? Badly cambered and
profiled track?
Probably just knackered with the rail profile probably worn into the old
38 tube stock wheel profile after running there for 30+ years.

Also I suspect the bogie length and hence bogie wheelbase is longer on the
D stock so perhaps curves that were fine for the 38 stock are a bit more
abrasive for the D stock.
Charles Ellson
2024-04-17 00:01:06 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 10:23:41 +0100, Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I finally got around to riding the 484s on the isle of wight. Vivarail did a
very nice job. Interesting contrast between the sound of the new traction
inverters and the LU DC motors which they retained.
Makes me wonder , if a small company managed to refurbish these trains so well
why didn't LU do it instead of buying entirely new S Stock trains? I assume
there must have been good reasons not to.
Trundling up and down the Island Line or the Greenford loop is a lot
less taxing than operating the Metropolitan lines out to Amersham and
Chesham day in and day out.
That was A stock. C stock didn't usually trundle past Neasden.
Recliner
2024-04-17 00:05:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 10:23:41 +0100, Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I finally got around to riding the 484s on the isle of wight. Vivarail did a
very nice job. Interesting contrast between the sound of the new traction
inverters and the LU DC motors which they retained.
Makes me wonder , if a small company managed to refurbish these trains so well
why didn't LU do it instead of buying entirely new S Stock trains? I assume
there must have been good reasons not to.
Trundling up and down the Island Line or the Greenford loop is a lot
less taxing than operating the Metropolitan lines out to Amersham and
Chesham day in and day out.
That was A stock. C stock didn't usually trundle past Neasden.
The 230 is D stock, that never worked on the Met. But I wonder if the D
stock's stop-start services were harder work than the limited stop, faster
Met services?
Charles Ellson
2024-04-17 00:22:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 10:23:41 +0100, Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I finally got around to riding the 484s on the isle of wight. Vivarail did a
very nice job. Interesting contrast between the sound of the new traction
inverters and the LU DC motors which they retained.
Makes me wonder , if a small company managed to refurbish these trains so well
why didn't LU do it instead of buying entirely new S Stock trains? I assume
there must have been good reasons not to.
Trundling up and down the Island Line or the Greenford loop is a lot
less taxing than operating the Metropolitan lines out to Amersham and
Chesham day in and day out.
That was A stock. C stock didn't usually trundle past Neasden.
The 230 is D stock,
Argh! yes.
Post by Recliner
that never worked on the Met.
or even the Northern side of the Circle IIRC (gauge issues?).
Post by Recliner
But I wonder if the D
stock's stop-start services were harder work than the limited stop, faster
Met services?
They had rheostatic braking so unlike A stock you were straining the
gear train and motors on arrival as well as departure.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-04-17 08:30:47 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Apr 2024 01:22:06 +0100
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 10:23:41 +0100, Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I finally got around to riding the 484s on the isle of wight. Vivarail
did a
Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
very nice job. Interesting contrast between the sound of the new traction
inverters and the LU DC motors which they retained.
Makes me wonder , if a small company managed to refurbish these trains so
well
Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
why didn't LU do it instead of buying entirely new S Stock trains? I
assume
Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
there must have been good reasons not to.
Trundling up and down the Island Line or the Greenford loop is a lot
less taxing than operating the Metropolitan lines out to Amersham and
Chesham day in and day out.
That was A stock. C stock didn't usually trundle past Neasden.
The 230 is D stock,
Argh! yes.
Post by Recliner
that never worked on the Met.
or even the Northern side of the Circle IIRC (gauge issues?).
At 9 foot 8 wide the A stock AFAIK was the UKs widest train so no surprise it
had problems fitting on some lines even on the tube. It did make for an
extrenely roomy interior with the 3 across seating being a genuine 3 across
not a 2.5 across like in most BR stock.
Charles Ellson
2024-04-18 17:37:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 17 Apr 2024 01:22:06 +0100
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 10:23:41 +0100, Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I finally got around to riding the 484s on the isle of wight. Vivarail
did a
Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
very nice job. Interesting contrast between the sound of the new traction
inverters and the LU DC motors which they retained.
Makes me wonder , if a small company managed to refurbish these trains so
well
Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
why didn't LU do it instead of buying entirely new S Stock trains? I
assume
Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
there must have been good reasons not to.
Trundling up and down the Island Line or the Greenford loop is a lot
less taxing than operating the Metropolitan lines out to Amersham and
Chesham day in and day out.
That was A stock. C stock didn't usually trundle past Neasden.
The 230 is D stock,
Argh! yes.
Post by Recliner
that never worked on the Met.
or even the Northern side of the Circle IIRC (gauge issues?).
At 9 foot 8 wide the A stock AFAIK was the UKs widest train so no surprise it
had problems fitting on some lines even on the tube. It did make for an
extrenely roomy interior with the 3 across seating being a genuine 3 across
not a 2.5 across like in most BR stock.
A stock was wider but ISTR D stock had potential trouble with the
amount of protrusion of the corners on curves which would have come
into effect at some platforms or crossovers. The LURS published a list
of prohibitions/restrictions a few years ago; AFAIR A stock was banned
from the south side of the Circle Line due to the central bodyside
being foul to gauge on tight curves.
Bob
2024-04-17 05:50:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 10:23:41 +0100, Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I finally got around to riding the 484s on the isle of wight. Vivarail did a
very nice job. Interesting contrast between the sound of the new traction
inverters and the LU DC motors which they retained.
Makes me wonder , if a small company managed to refurbish these trains so well
why didn't LU do it instead of buying entirely new S Stock trains? I assume
there must have been good reasons not to.
Trundling up and down the Island Line or the Greenford loop is a lot
less taxing than operating the Metropolitan lines out to Amersham and
Chesham day in and day out.
That was A stock. C stock didn't usually trundle past Neasden.
The 230 is D stock, that never worked on the Met. But I wonder if the D
stock's stop-start services were harder work than the limited stop, faster
Met services?
Part of the reason the D stock was chosen for conversion is that they
had suffered bogie crackign due to the heavy nature of the work and had
all been re-bogied relatively recently, hence that element of their
construction was much newer, with more life left in it, than the age of
the units as a whole would imply.

Robin
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-04-17 08:28:31 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Apr 2024 00:05:22 GMT
Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 10:23:41 +0100, Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I finally got around to riding the 484s on the isle of wight. Vivarail did
a
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
very nice job. Interesting contrast between the sound of the new traction
inverters and the LU DC motors which they retained.
Makes me wonder , if a small company managed to refurbish these trains so
well
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
why didn't LU do it instead of buying entirely new S Stock trains? I assume
there must have been good reasons not to.
Trundling up and down the Island Line or the Greenford loop is a lot
less taxing than operating the Metropolitan lines out to Amersham and
Chesham day in and day out.
That was A stock. C stock didn't usually trundle past Neasden.
The 230 is D stock, that never worked on the Met. But I wonder if the D
stock's stop-start services were harder work than the limited stop, faster
Met services?
If the C stock had been used on the Amersham route the passengers would have
needed chiropracters after a few weeks.
Marland
2024-04-15 09:49:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I finally got around to riding the 484s on the isle of wight. Vivarail did a
very nice job. Interesting contrast between the sound of the new traction
inverters and the LU DC motors which they retained.
Makes me wonder , if a small company managed to refurbish these trains so well
why didn't LU do it instead of buying entirely new S Stock trains? I assume
there must have been good reasons not to.
Although there are some differences in seating layout and train length
basically the S stock is all one design, LU felt that having one pool of
spares, technicians,and drivers etc only need training on one design for
the subsurface lines and while the production line was running the
investment of getting new trains with the walkthrough feature ,Air con ,
disabled bays etc was better value than another refurbishment of the D
stock which would not have been able to achieve all those aims.

How was your Ferry crossing? Both routes have been suffering from service
interruptions
recently due to lack of staff and mechanical failures. There was a
family featured on the local radio
desperate to get off the Island to get to an airport for a flight but were
stranded due to cancellations.
Don’t know if they made it in the end.

GH
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-04-15 10:28:22 UTC
Permalink
On 15 Apr 2024 09:49:00 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I finally got around to riding the 484s on the isle of wight. Vivarail did a
very nice job. Interesting contrast between the sound of the new traction
inverters and the LU DC motors which they retained.
Makes me wonder , if a small company managed to refurbish these trains so
well
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
why didn't LU do it instead of buying entirely new S Stock trains? I assume
there must have been good reasons not to.
Although there are some differences in seating layout and train length
basically the S stock is all one design, LU felt that having one pool of
spares, technicians,and drivers etc only need training on one design for
the subsurface lines and while the production line was running the
investment of getting new trains with the walkthrough feature ,Air con ,
disabled bays etc was better value than another refurbishment of the D
stock which would not have been able to achieve all those aims.
Makes sense.
Post by Marland
How was your Ferry crossing? Both routes have been suffering from service
interruptions
recently due to lack of staff and mechanical failures. There was a
family featured on the local radio
desperate to get off the Island to get to an airport for a flight but were
stranded due to cancellations.
Don’t know if they made it in the end.
No problems either way with Wightlink.
ColinR
2024-04-15 12:43:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 15 Apr 2024 09:49:00 GMT
Post by Marland
How was your Ferry crossing? Both routes have been suffering from service
interruptions
recently due to lack of staff and mechanical failures. There was a
family featured on the local radio
desperate to get off the Island to get to an airport for a flight but were
stranded due to cancellations.
Don’t know if they made it in the end.
No problems either way with Wightlink.
I think it was/is Red Funnel problems:
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24191253.red-funnel-ceo-apologises-southampton-isle-wight-ferry-delay/
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24220244.isle-wight-ferry-red-funnel-issues-prompt-independent-investigation/
--
Colin
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-04-15 15:49:16 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 13:43:58 +0100
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 15 Apr 2024 09:49:00 GMT
Post by Marland
How was your Ferry crossing? Both routes have been suffering from service
interruptions
recently due to lack of staff and mechanical failures. There was a
family featured on the local radio
desperate to get off the Island to get to an airport for a flight but were
stranded due to cancellations.
Don’t know if they made it in the end.
No problems either way with Wightlink.
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24191253.red-funnel-ceo-apologises-southampton
-isle-wight-ferry-delay/
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24220244.isle-wight-ferry-red-funnel-issues-pr
ompt-independent-investigation/
Frankly I'm surprised a bridge has never been built to the island. Though I
guess the locals quite like being an island as that is half the appeal of
living there so maybe there'd be too much opposition.
Bob
2024-04-15 15:55:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 13:43:58 +0100
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 15 Apr 2024 09:49:00 GMT
Post by Marland
How was your Ferry crossing? Both routes have been suffering from service
interruptions
recently due to lack of staff and mechanical failures. There was a
family featured on the local radio
desperate to get off the Island to get to an airport for a flight but were
stranded due to cancellations.
Don’t know if they made it in the end.
No problems either way with Wightlink.
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24191253.red-funnel-ceo-apologises-southampton
-isle-wight-ferry-delay/
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24220244.isle-wight-ferry-red-funnel-issues-pr
ompt-independent-investigation/
Frankly I'm surprised a bridge has never been built to the island. Though I
guess the locals quite like being an island as that is half the appeal of
living there so maybe there'd be too much opposition.
Due to the shipping activity in Portsmouth and Southampton, if a bridge
were built it would likely need to be at the western end of the Solent,
meaning access roads would need to be driven through the New Forrest,
likely to cause strong opposition.

Robin
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-04-15 15:58:27 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 17:55:11 +0200
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Frankly I'm surprised a bridge has never been built to the island. Though I
guess the locals quite like being an island as that is half the appeal of
living there so maybe there'd be too much opposition.
Due to the shipping activity in Portsmouth and Southampton, if a bridge
were built it would likely need to be at the western end of the Solent,
Oh sure. I can't imagine funds for a 6 mile bridge to Portsmouth would
ever be forthcoming! :)
Post by Bob
meaning access roads would need to be driven through the New Forrest,
likely to cause strong opposition.
At the closest point there's not much actual forest and its only just under
a mile of water to cross so in the scheme of things should be affordable.
ColinR
2024-04-15 21:15:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 17:55:11 +0200
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Frankly I'm surprised a bridge has never been built to the island. Though I
guess the locals quite like being an island as that is half the appeal of
living there so maybe there'd be too much opposition.
Due to the shipping activity in Portsmouth and Southampton, if a bridge
were built it would likely need to be at the western end of the Solent,
Oh sure. I can't imagine funds for a 6 mile bridge to Portsmouth would
ever be forthcoming! :)
Post by Bob
meaning access roads would need to be driven through the New Forrest,
likely to cause strong opposition.
At the closest point there's not much actual forest and its only just under
a mile of water to cross so in the scheme of things should be affordable.
I recall proposals for a link to the Isle of Wight when I was in primary
school in Dibden / Minstead - nowt happened then either!
--
Colin
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-04-16 08:42:38 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 22:15:08 +0100
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 17:55:11 +0200
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Frankly I'm surprised a bridge has never been built to the island. Though I
guess the locals quite like being an island as that is half the appeal of
living there so maybe there'd be too much opposition.
Due to the shipping activity in Portsmouth and Southampton, if a bridge
were built it would likely need to be at the western end of the Solent,
Oh sure. I can't imagine funds for a 6 mile bridge to Portsmouth would
ever be forthcoming! :)
Post by Bob
meaning access roads would need to be driven through the New Forrest,
likely to cause strong opposition.
At the closest point there's not much actual forest and its only just under
a mile of water to cross so in the scheme of things should be affordable.
I recall proposals for a link to the Isle of Wight when I was in primary
school in Dibden / Minstead - nowt happened then either!
A bit like the Bakerloo line extension. Probably more energy used in talking
about it over the decades than would be required to actually build it.
Certes
2024-04-15 21:41:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 17:55:11 +0200
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Frankly I'm surprised a bridge has never been built to the island. Though I
guess the locals quite like being an island as that is half the appeal of
living there so maybe there'd be too much opposition.
Due to the shipping activity in Portsmouth and Southampton, if a bridge
were built it would likely need to be at the western end of the Solent,
Oh sure. I can't imagine funds for a 6 mile bridge to Portsmouth would
ever be forthcoming! :)
Post by Bob
meaning access roads would need to be driven through the New Forrest,
likely to cause strong opposition.
At the closest point there's not much actual forest and its only just under
a mile of water to cross so in the scheme of things should be affordable.
For a road bridge, the mile of water may be less of a problem than the
miles of marsh and forest between Hurst Point and any existing road that
goes anywhere fast.

For a rail bridge, getting to the island might be relatively easy but
someone seems to have removed the line from Yarmouth to anywhere else.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-04-16 08:43:12 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 22:41:51 +0100
Post by Certes
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
At the closest point there's not much actual forest and its only just under
a mile of water to cross so in the scheme of things should be affordable.
For a road bridge, the mile of water may be less of a problem than the
miles of marsh and forest between Hurst Point and any existing road that
goes anywhere fast.
For a rail bridge, getting to the island might be relatively easy but
someone seems to have removed the line from Yarmouth to anywhere else.
Beeching or some other short sighted wonk?
Certes
2024-04-16 09:01:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 22:41:51 +0100
Post by Certes
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
At the closest point there's not much actual forest and its only just under
a mile of water to cross so in the scheme of things should be affordable.
For a road bridge, the mile of water may be less of a problem than the
miles of marsh and forest between Hurst Point and any existing road that
goes anywhere fast.
For a rail bridge, getting to the island might be relatively easy but
someone seems to have removed the line from Yarmouth to anywhere else.
Beeching or some other short sighted wonk?
Closed 1953 due to traffic being seasonal and loss-making, according to
Wikipedia (which cites a book I don't have).
Graeme Wall
2024-04-16 09:46:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Certes
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 22:41:51 +0100
Post by Certes
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
At the closest point there's not much actual forest and its only just under
a mile of water to cross so in the scheme of things should be affordable.
For a road bridge, the mile of water may be less of a problem than the
miles of marsh and forest between Hurst Point and any existing road that
goes anywhere fast.
For a rail bridge, getting to the island might be relatively easy but
someone seems to have removed the line from Yarmouth to anywhere else.
Beeching or some other short sighted wonk?
Closed 1953 due to traffic being seasonal and loss-making, according to
Wikipedia (which cites a book I don't have).
I have a copy of that book and it points out that on the grouping the
Southern railway didn't want to take on the Freshwater line as it was so
unprofitable. Eventually they had to be forced to take it on. The rail
tunnel link to the mainland had been approved in 1903. 1904 and 1909
butv was abandoned on the outbreak of WW1.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Theo
2024-04-16 10:05:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
I have a copy of that book and it points out that on the grouping the
Southern railway didn't want to take on the Freshwater line as it was so
unprofitable. Eventually they had to be forced to take it on. The rail
tunnel link to the mainland had been approved in 1903. 1904 and 1909
butv was abandoned on the outbreak of WW1.
It would be an interesting alternative universe where the Island lines had
survived and provided the backbone of a modern public transport network (eg
trams), as well as through trains from the mainland (like Sylt). I wonder
whether the Island would be almost car-free, and the trains would replace
buses having to negotiate the narrow roads.

Theo
Graeme Wall
2024-04-16 10:19:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by Graeme Wall
I have a copy of that book and it points out that on the grouping the
Southern railway didn't want to take on the Freshwater line as it was so
unprofitable. Eventually they had to be forced to take it on. The rail
tunnel link to the mainland had been approved in 1903. 1904 and 1909
butv was abandoned on the outbreak of WW1.
It would be an interesting alternative universe where the Island lines had
survived and provided the backbone of a modern public transport network (eg
trams), as well as through trains from the mainland (like Sylt). I wonder
whether the Island would be almost car-free, and the trains would replace
buses having to negotiate the narrow roads.
Even had it survived Beeching it would never have survived Thatcher's
Great Car Economy of the 1970s.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Marland
2024-04-16 18:37:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by Graeme Wall
I have a copy of that book and it points out that on the grouping the
Southern railway didn't want to take on the Freshwater line as it was so
unprofitable. Eventually they had to be forced to take it on. The rail
tunnel link to the mainland had been approved in 1903. 1904 and 1909
butv was abandoned on the outbreak of WW1.
It would be an interesting alternative universe where the Island lines had
survived and provided the backbone of a modern public transport network (eg
trams), as well as through trains from the mainland (like Sylt). I wonder
whether the Island would be almost car-free, and the trains would replace
buses having to negotiate the narrow roads.
Theo
It seems counterintuitive but small Islands are maybe the worst places to
sustain rail transport.
Rail is relatively expensive to provide and will rarely be close enough to
much of the population to obviate the need for road transport. Now that
main freight in the form of coal has long been superseded by electricity
for domestic energy needs the other advantages of rail which is high speed
over longer distances or transporting 1000’s of people at once to work in a
large town or city are not required on a small Island. The Railways on the
Channel of Jersey and Guernsey went in the 1930’s
as the bus and lorry were developed. The Isle of Man lost some of its
routes with the remaining
segments surviving as much as a tourist attraction as a transport
essential in the 1960’s and the Isle of Wight as noted from the early
1950’s. The remaining line survived because at the time there was still
quite a lot of domestic visitor traffic to the Island requiring 7 car
trains , those got replaced by two car ones and now 3 car . Arguably it
should have closed when the traffic dwindled in the 1970’s -80’s but by
then closing Railways was no longer the thing to do and it reached the
point where lots of money has had to be spent on it but it looks like
that still isn’t enough.

GH
Theo
2024-04-17 11:41:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
It seems counterintuitive but small Islands are maybe the worst places to
sustain rail transport.
Yes and no.
Post by Marland
Rail is relatively expensive to provide and will rarely be close enough to
much of the population to obviate the need for road transport. Now that
main freight in the form of coal has long been superseded by electricity
for domestic energy needs the other advantages of rail which is high speed
over longer distances or transporting 1000’s of people at once to work in a
large town or city are not required on a small Island. The Railways on the
Channel of Jersey and Guernsey went in the 1930’s
as the bus and lorry were developed.
To be successful, island transport would need several factors:

1. a network where you aren't far from a stop, like a tram system, so you
can walk or cycle there
2. a restriction of car traffic: that might be congested roads and lack of
parking, or a lack of ferry services to get cars there in the first place
3. an unsuitability for a bus service: here it could be narrow country roads
versus a segregated railway network
4. connectivity that can be achieved by rail that can't by road - eg a rail
tunnel to the mainland where the road equivalent was a slow ferry
5. a population density high enough to support no.1 and to cause no.2

Effectively an island with enough population to make a public transport
network sustainable.

The IoW has had cars for a long time and as such it seems unlikely to change
back any time soon, but it would be possible to imagine an alternative
universe where cars never became established on the Island and the railways
remained the primary means of transport.

Theo
Marland
2024-04-17 17:14:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by Marland
It seems counterintuitive but small Islands are maybe the worst places to
sustain rail transport.
Yes and no.
Post by Marland
Rail is relatively expensive to provide and will rarely be close enough to
much of the population to obviate the need for road transport. Now that
main freight in the form of coal has long been superseded by electricity
for domestic energy needs the other advantages of rail which is high speed
over longer distances or transporting 1000’s of people at once to work in a
large town or city are not required on a small Island. The Railways on the
Channel of Jersey and Guernsey went in the 1930’s
as the bus and lorry were developed.
1. a network where you aren't far from a stop, like a tram system, so you
can walk or cycle there
A Mile or Kilometer stays the same even if it is on an Island, the I.O.W
may not be the largest Island in the World but it is still going to be
quite a trek for most of the population and neither is it particularly flat
so only those reasonably healthy would walk or cycle too far ,though there
will be like now those
who would do such journeys as part of a lifestyle or hobby choice*
Before the car age many people worked at or not too far from home , that
hasn’t been the case for some decades and though some can now do it again
with moving office based work to a home office not all can do that.
Post by Theo
2. a restriction of car traffic: that might be congested roads and lack of
parking, or a lack of ferry services to get cars there in the first place
Like Sark, where the owners can impose such restrictions.
Post by Theo
3. an unsuitability for a bus service: here it could be narrow country roads
versus a segregated railway network
Guernsey and Jersey mandate narrower buses than those in the UK for that
reason,
Post by Theo
4. connectivity that can be achieved by rail that can't by road - eg a rail
tunnel to the mainland where the road equivalent was a slow ferry
5. a population density high enough to support no.1 and to cause no.2
Effectively an island with enough population to make a public transport
network sustainable.
The IoW has had cars for a long time and as such it seems unlikely to change
back any time soon, but it would be possible to imagine an alternative
universe where cars never became established on the Island and the railways
remained the primary means of transport.
Not actually a Geographic Island but a political one Gibraltar would appear
to be the sort of place,
it actually has quite good public transport with around 11 bus routes which
have a frequent service with buses 7m long max 2m wide.

Despite that and short walks or cycle rides to bus stops there are
around 17000 private cars and 5000 Motorbikes on the Peninsula. The
population is around 32,000 so it the the majority of adults who can own a
vehicle have one, in a place where the longest drive inside the “Island” is
about 5km and the same back again.

People just like their own transport too much.


* There was a cyclist on this part of the South Coast of England who used
to cycle to the Yarmouth Ferry to the West end of the Island and cycle to
the Fishbourne terminal at the East end and take the ferry back over to
Portsmouth . Home to work was 42 Miles 67km . Quite a lot shorter and
nicer roads than going between the same places on the mainland.
He used an electrical assisted bike and his reason for doing it was the
timing of of the train service,he
did it for over a year but eventually went back to the train.

GH
Marland
2024-04-16 13:34:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 22:41:51 +0100
Post by Certes
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
At the closest point there's not much actual forest and its only just under
a mile of water to cross so in the scheme of things should be affordable.
For a road bridge, the mile of water may be less of a problem than the
miles of marsh and forest between Hurst Point and any existing road that
goes anywhere fast.
For a rail bridge, getting to the island might be relatively easy but
someone seems to have removed the line from Yarmouth to anywhere else.
Beeching or some other short sighted wonk?
The line from Newport to Freshwater via Yarmouth closed in 1953 so well in
advance of the Beeching report.
Like much of the Islands routes it never really made much money and once
the lorry and bus were developed enough to be reliable it was no longer
needed especially out of tourist season *.
The never built tunnel from the mainland that ended up on the map I
linked to upthread was part of a scheme in the early years of the 20th
century to provide the line with some traffic as even then traffic was too
little to justify the investment in building it.

*The route for awhile did carry the I.O.W’s only express and named train
“The Tourist” which ran from Ventnor to Yarmouth via Newport .


GH
Bevan Price
2024-04-15 18:36:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 13:43:58 +0100
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 15 Apr 2024 09:49:00 GMT
How was your Ferry crossing?  Both routes have been suffering from
service
interruptions
recently due to lack of staff and mechanical failures.    There was a
family featured on the local radio
desperate to get off the Island to get to an airport for  a flight
but were
stranded due to cancellations.
Don’t know if they made it in the end.
No problems either way with Wightlink.
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24191253.red-funnel-ceo-apologises-southampton
-isle-wight-ferry-delay/
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24220244.isle-wight-ferry-red-funnel-issues-pr
ompt-independent-investigation/
Frankly I'm surprised a bridge has never been built to the island. Though I
guess the locals quite like being an island as that is half the appeal of
living there so maybe there'd be too much opposition.
Due to the shipping activity in Portsmouth and Southampton, if a bridge
were built it would likely need to be at the western end of the Solent,
meaning access roads would need to be driven through the New Forrest,
likely to cause strong opposition.
Robin
Knowing this Government, they would probably want any bridge to be a
toll bridge. The island has a population of about 140,000. The likely
annual number of crossings might be too low to raise enough revenue
unless the toll tax was uncacceptably high.

Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like an
invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-04-16 08:40:50 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 19:36:59 +0100
Post by Bevan Price
Post by Bob
Due to the shipping activity in Portsmouth and Southampton, if a bridge
were built it would likely need to be at the western end of the Solent,
meaning access roads would need to be driven through the New Forrest,
likely to cause strong opposition.
Robin
Knowing this Government, they would probably want any bridge to be a
toll bridge. The island has a population of about 140,000. The likely
annual number of crossings might be too low to raise enough revenue
unless the toll tax was uncacceptably high.
Bridge toll policy is a bit wierd in this country. No government of any
persuation has removed the dartford crossing tolls despite the inconvenience
they cause**, yet the tories say the severn bridge tolls removed without there
being a big fuss.


** Before it was jams caused by the booths, now its trying to remember
to pay the damn thing either in advance or after the event which when you
have 101 other things to remember if you're heading abroad can sometimes not
happen.
Certes
2024-04-16 09:05:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 19:36:59 +0100
Post by Bevan Price
Post by Bob
Due to the shipping activity in Portsmouth and Southampton, if a bridge
were built it would likely need to be at the western end of the Solent,
meaning access roads would need to be driven through the New Forrest,
likely to cause strong opposition.
Knowing this Government, they would probably want any bridge to be a
toll bridge. The island has a population of about 140,000. The likely
annual number of crossings might be too low to raise enough revenue
unless the toll tax was uncacceptably high.
Bridge toll policy is a bit wierd in this country. No government of any
persuation has removed the dartford crossing tolls despite the inconvenience
they cause**, yet the tories say the severn bridge tolls removed without there
being a big fuss.
** Before it was jams caused by the booths, now its trying to remember
to pay the damn thing either in advance or after the event which when you
have 101 other things to remember if you're heading abroad can sometimes not
happen.
The replacement of the free road bridge between Runcorn and Widnes by a
toll bridge was deeply unpopular, making (the rather artificial
construct of) Halton the only borough divided by a toll bridge. Last
time I would have crossed it, I drove round via Warrington instead, as
it was quicker than investigating how to pay (online only, and I was
travelling).
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-04-16 09:19:47 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 10:05:56 +0100
Post by Certes
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
** Before it was jams caused by the booths, now its trying to remember
to pay the damn thing either in advance or after the event which when you
have 101 other things to remember if you're heading abroad can sometimes not
happen.
The replacement of the free road bridge between Runcorn and Widnes by a
toll bridge was deeply unpopular, making (the rather artificial
construct of) Halton the only borough divided by a toll bridge. Last
The minute a council has a cashflow crisis they start taxing the motorist
cashcow in whatever way they can whether it be resident parking permits,
higher parking charges & fines and/or stricter enforcement. Putting a toll on
a bridge is a new one on me though. What twats.
Recliner
2024-04-16 09:41:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 10:05:56 +0100
Post by Certes
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
** Before it was jams caused by the booths, now its trying to remember
to pay the damn thing either in advance or after the event which when you
have 101 other things to remember if you're heading abroad can sometimes not
happen.
The replacement of the free road bridge between Runcorn and Widnes by a
toll bridge was deeply unpopular, making (the rather artificial
construct of) Halton the only borough divided by a toll bridge. Last
The minute a council has a cashflow crisis they start taxing the motorist
cashcow in whatever way they can whether it be resident parking permits,
higher parking charges & fines and/or stricter enforcement. Putting a toll on
a bridge is a new one on me though. What twats.
It's not uncommon for new bridges and tunnels to be funded by tolls,
particularly if there isn't an easy alternate route.
ColinR
2024-04-16 09:53:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 10:05:56 +0100
Post by Certes
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
** Before it was jams caused by the booths, now its trying to remember
to pay the damn thing either in advance or after the event which when you
have 101 other things to remember if you're heading abroad can sometimes not
happen.
The replacement of the free road bridge between Runcorn and Widnes by a
toll bridge was deeply unpopular, making (the rather artificial
construct of) Halton the only borough divided by a toll bridge. Last
The minute a council has a cashflow crisis they start taxing the motorist
cashcow in whatever way they can whether it be resident parking permits,
higher parking charges & fines and/or stricter enforcement. Putting a toll on
a bridge is a new one on me though. What twats.
It's not uncommon for new bridges and tunnels to be funded by tolls,
particularly if there isn't an easy alternate route.
I think you missed the point - it was putting tolls onto an existing
"free" bridge, not a toll bearing bridge planned as such.
--
Colin
Recliner
2024-04-16 14:35:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by ColinR
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 10:05:56 +0100
Post by Certes
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
** Before it was jams caused by the booths, now its trying to remember
to pay the damn thing either in advance or after the event which when you
have 101 other things to remember if you're heading abroad can sometimes not
happen.
The replacement of the free road bridge between Runcorn and Widnes by a
toll bridge was deeply unpopular, making (the rather artificial
construct of) Halton the only borough divided by a toll bridge. Last
The minute a council has a cashflow crisis they start taxing the motorist
cashcow in whatever way they can whether it be resident parking permits,
higher parking charges & fines and/or stricter enforcement. Putting a toll on
a bridge is a new one on me though. What twats.
It's not uncommon for new bridges and tunnels to be funded by tolls,
particularly if there isn't an easy alternate route.
I think you missed the point - it was putting tolls onto an existing
"free" bridge, not a toll bearing bridge planned as such.
He said, "The replacement of the free road bridge between Runcorn and
Widnes by a toll bridge…".

In other words, it's a new toll bridge, not a new toll on an existing
bridge.
Blueshirt
2024-04-16 14:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by ColinR
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 10:05:56 +0100
Post by Certes
The replacement of the free road bridge between Runcorn
and Widnes by a toll bridge was deeply unpopular, making
(the rather artificial construct of) Halton the only
borough divided by a toll bridge.
The minute a council has a cashflow crisis they start
taxing the motorist cashcow in whatever way they can
whether it be resident parking permits, higher parking
charges & fines and/or stricter enforcement. Putting a
toll
Post by Recliner
Post by ColinR
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
on a bridge is a new one on me though. What twats.
It's not uncommon for new bridges and tunnels to be funded
by tolls, particularly if there isn't an easy alternate
route.
I think you missed the point - it was putting tolls onto an
existing "free" bridge, not a toll bearing bridge planned as
such.
He said, "The replacement of the free road bridge between
Runcorn and Widnes by a toll bridge…".
In other words, it's a new toll bridge, not a new toll on an
existing bridge.
I actually read it as, old bridge that was free, and now it's a
toll bridge... so new toll bridge, but not a 'new' bridge! But
it could be read either way.
Nick Finnigan
2024-04-16 14:54:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blueshirt
Post by Recliner
Post by ColinR
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 10:05:56 +0100
Post by Certes
The replacement of the free road bridge between Runcorn
and Widnes by a toll bridge was deeply unpopular, making
(the rather artificial construct of) Halton the only
borough divided by a toll bridge.
The minute a council has a cashflow crisis they start
taxing the motorist cashcow in whatever way they can
whether it be resident parking permits, higher parking
charges & fines and/or stricter enforcement. Putting a
toll
Post by Recliner
Post by ColinR
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
on a bridge is a new one on me though. What twats.
It's not uncommon for new bridges and tunnels to be funded
by tolls, particularly if there isn't an easy alternate
route.
I think you missed the point - it was putting tolls onto an
existing "free" bridge, not a toll bearing bridge planned as
such.
He said, "The replacement of the free road bridge between
Runcorn and Widnes by a toll bridge…".
In other words, it's a new toll bridge, not a new toll on an
existing bridge.
I actually read it as, old bridge that was free, and now it's a
toll bridge... so new toll bridge, but not a 'new' bridge! But
it could be read either way.
And it should be: the new bridge has tolls, so the old bridge also has
tolls, to prevent loss of revenue.
Recliner
2024-04-16 15:46:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Finnigan
Post by Blueshirt
Post by Recliner
Post by ColinR
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 10:05:56 +0100
Post by Certes
The replacement of the free road bridge between Runcorn
and Widnes by a toll bridge was deeply unpopular, making
(the rather artificial construct of) Halton the only
borough divided by a toll bridge.
The minute a council has a cashflow crisis they start
taxing the motorist cashcow in whatever way they can
whether it be resident parking permits, higher parking
charges & fines and/or stricter enforcement. Putting a
toll
Post by Recliner
Post by ColinR
Post by Recliner
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
on a bridge is a new one on me though. What twats.
It's not uncommon for new bridges and tunnels to be funded
by tolls, particularly if there isn't an easy alternate
route.
I think you missed the point - it was putting tolls onto an
existing "free" bridge, not a toll bearing bridge planned as
such.
He said, "The replacement of the free road bridge between
Runcorn and Widnes by a toll bridge…".
In other words, it's a new toll bridge, not a new toll on an
existing bridge.
I actually read it as, old bridge that was free, and now it's a
toll bridge... so new toll bridge, but not a 'new' bridge! But
it could be read either way.
And it should be: the new bridge has tolls, so the old bridge also has
tolls, to prevent loss of revenue.
I read it as the new toll bridge replaced the former, free bridge.
Nick Finnigan
2024-04-16 16:33:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Nick Finnigan
And it should be: the new bridge has tolls, so the old bridge also has
tolls, to prevent loss of revenue.
I read it as the new toll bridge replaced the former, free bridge.
It did, but to function as a replacement, the formerly free (for road
traffic) bridge needed to impose similar tolls (for motor vehicles).
Certes
2024-04-16 17:35:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
  And it should be: the new bridge has tolls, so the old bridge also has
tolls, to prevent loss of revenue.
I read it as the new toll bridge replaced the former, free bridge.
 It did, but to function as a replacement, the formerly free (for road
traffic) bridge needed to impose similar tolls (for motor vehicles).
The new bridge has tolls.

The old bridge now also has tolls, having reopened after a lengthy
closure for downgrading (removing lanes, replacing flyovers by flat
junctions, etc.)
Roland Perry
2024-04-16 10:12:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bevan Price
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 13:43:58 +0100
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 15 Apr 2024 09:49:00 GMT
Frankly I'm surprised a bridge has never been built to the island.
...
Post by Bevan Price
Knowing this Government, they would probably want any bridge to be a
toll bridge. The island has a population of about 140,000. The likely
annual number of crossings might be too low to raise enough revenue
unless the toll tax was uncacceptably high.
Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like an
invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
They already have lorries from the mainland delivering to the various
supermarkets etc. I doubt that opening a bridge would cause even more
lorries to arrive (where would they be delivering to??)

If they don't like tourists, they should have a long hard look at where
the Island's income comes from, and/or move to somewhere else if they
are also a tourist (albeit a long term retiree who bought a house and
now only tours the island).
--
Roland Perry
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-04-16 14:56:04 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 11:12:22 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Bevan Price
Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like an
invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
They already have lorries from the mainland delivering to the various
supermarkets etc. I doubt that opening a bridge would cause even more
lorries to arrive (where would they be delivering to??)
If they don't like tourists, they should have a long hard look at where
the Island's income comes from, and/or move to somewhere else if they
I suspect the IOWs income has gone up recently. Last time we went there in
2016 the roads looked like the ones into Berlin in 1945. This year lots of
nice fresh tarmac all over the place and fewer potholes than where I live in
London.
Sam Wilson
2024-04-17 08:51:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bevan Price
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 13:43:58 +0100
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 15 Apr 2024 09:49:00 GMT
How was your Ferry crossing?  Both routes have been suffering from
service
interruptions
recently due to lack of staff and mechanical failures.    There was a
family featured on the local radio
desperate to get off the Island to get to an airport for  a flight
but were
stranded due to cancellations.
Don’t know if they made it in the end.
No problems either way with Wightlink.
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24191253.red-funnel-ceo-apologises-southampton
-isle-wight-ferry-delay/
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24220244.isle-wight-ferry-red-funnel-issues-pr
ompt-independent-investigation/
Frankly I'm surprised a bridge has never been built to the island. Though I
guess the locals quite like being an island as that is half the appeal of
living there so maybe there'd be too much opposition.
Due to the shipping activity in Portsmouth and Southampton, if a bridge
were built it would likely need to be at the western end of the Solent,
meaning access roads would need to be driven through the New Forrest,
likely to cause strong opposition.
Robin
Knowing this Government, they would probably want any bridge to be a
toll bridge. The island has a population of about 140,000. The likely
annual number of crossings might be too low to raise enough revenue
unless the toll tax was uncacceptably high.
Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like an
invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
I remember asking a B&B owner in Skye what difference the bridge had made.
“More petty crime,” she said.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Roland Perry
2024-04-17 09:18:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Bevan Price
Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like an
invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
I remember asking a B&B owner in Skye what difference the bridge had
made. "More petty crime" she said.
A common complaint. When I lived in the outer suburbs of Atlanta the
main (and successful) pressure group against the extension of their
metro system, was based on the fear of Chavs from the inner city using
it as a means to facilitate a smash-and-grab on their homes.
--
Roland Perry
Clank
2024-04-17 09:56:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Bevan Price
Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like
an invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
I remember asking a B&B owner in Skye what difference the bridge had
made. "More petty crime" she said.
A common complaint. When I lived in the outer suburbs of Atlanta the
main (and successful) pressure group against the extension of their
metro system, was based on the fear of Chavs from the inner city using
it as a means to facilitate a smash-and-grab on their homes.
Which was also the argument used by campaigners against Croydon Tramlink
back in the day - the only people who would benefit would be the criminals
who would come down from New Addington on the rob. Personally I feel like
an all-stops tram would be a relatively suboptimal getaway vehicle for a
heist, but I suppose that's why I'm not a professional criminal.

Mind, the same people also claimed that the trams would simultaneously be
so noisy that it would be impossible to sleep within half a mile of a tram
line, and so quiet that they would scatter bloodied pedestrians across the
streets like a grim game of skittles....
Roland Perry
2024-04-17 11:10:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Bevan Price
Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like
an invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
I remember asking a B&B owner in Skye what difference the bridge had
made. "More petty crime" she said.
A common complaint. When I lived in the outer suburbs of Atlanta the
main (and successful) pressure group against the extension of their
metro system, was based on the fear of Chavs from the inner city using
it as a means to facilitate a smash-and-grab on their homes.
Which was also the argument used by campaigners against Croydon Tramlink
back in the day - the only people who would benefit would be the criminals
who would come down from New Addington on the rob. Personally I feel like
an all-stops tram would be a relatively suboptimal getaway vehicle for a
heist, but I suppose that's why I'm not a professional criminal.
Mind, the same people also claimed that the trams would simultaneously be
so noisy that it would be impossible to sleep within half a mile of a tram
line, and so quiet that they would scatter bloodied pedestrians across the
streets like a grim game of skittles....
The street I lived in most of the time I was in Nottingham originally
formed part of the NET2 project. But the NIMBYs saw it off.

With a substantial 1930's house, double glazed and a decent sized front
garden, I wouldn't have expected the trams to be a nuisance. And the
enhanced connectivity to the City Centre should have added at least £40k
to the value.
--
Roland Perry
Charles Ellson
2024-04-18 18:56:39 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Apr 2024 09:56:39 -0000 (UTC), Clank
Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Bevan Price
Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like
an invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
I remember asking a B&B owner in Skye what difference the bridge had
made. "More petty crime" she said.
A common complaint. When I lived in the outer suburbs of Atlanta the
main (and successful) pressure group against the extension of their
metro system, was based on the fear of Chavs from the inner city using
it as a means to facilitate a smash-and-grab on their homes.
Which was also the argument used by campaigners against Croydon Tramlink
back in the day - the only people who would benefit would be the criminals
who would come down from New Addington on the rob. Personally I feel like
an all-stops tram would be a relatively suboptimal getaway vehicle for a
heist, but I suppose that's why I'm not a professional criminal.
Mind, the same people also claimed that the trams would simultaneously be
so noisy that it would be impossible to sleep within half a mile of a tram
line, and so quiet that they would scatter bloodied pedestrians across the
streets like a grim game of skittles....
They said the latter about trolleybuses ("silent death") and more
recently about electric buses but the noise level is now little
different from cars which have themselves become quieter.
Marland
2024-04-18 19:54:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Clank
so quiet that they would scatter bloodied pedestrians across the
streets like a grim game of skittles....
They said the latter about trolleybuses ("silent death")
The Singer Dionne Warwick had a close encounter with a Glasgow one that
appeared quietly out of some fog, she wasn’t able to Walk on By and had to
attend Hospital missing her planned performance that evening.


It would be basis for a good pub quiz question, I bet a lot of younger
than 50 people in the UK don’t even know what a Trolleybus is.

GH

Ken
2024-04-17 10:26:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Bevan Price
Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like an
invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
I remember asking a B&B owner in Skye what difference the bridge had
made. "More petty crime" she said.
A common complaint. When I lived in the outer suburbs of Atlanta the
main (and successful) pressure group against the extension of their
metro system, was based on the fear of Chavs from the inner city using
it as a means to facilitate a smash-and-grab on their homes.
Posher seaside towns made the same claims when a railway was
threatened in the mid-19th century.
Sam Wilson
2024-04-17 11:36:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Bevan Price
Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like an
invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
I remember asking a B&B owner in Skye what difference the bridge had
made. "More petty crime" she said.
A common complaint. When I lived in the outer suburbs of Atlanta the
main (and successful) pressure group against the extension of their
metro system, was based on the fear of Chavs from the inner city using
it as a means to facilitate a smash-and-grab on their homes.
The issue wasn’t primarily to do with undesirables arriving, but with the
ability to get off the island more quickly. As another posting pointed
out, a tram is not a very plausible getaway vehicle, and a ferry even less
so.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-04-17 11:42:20 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Apr 2024 11:36:12 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Bevan Price
Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like an
invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
I remember asking a B&B owner in Skye what difference the bridge had
made. "More petty crime" she said.
A common complaint. When I lived in the outer suburbs of Atlanta the
main (and successful) pressure group against the extension of their
metro system, was based on the fear of Chavs from the inner city using
it as a means to facilitate a smash-and-grab on their homes.
The issue wasn’t primarily to do with undesirables arriving, but with the
ability to get off the island more quickly. As another posting pointed
out, a tram is not a very plausible getaway vehicle, and a ferry even less
so.
Of all the ways to make a getaway from a robbery, public transport is probably
the worst option. Not only would it be obvious if you're carrying anything
bigger that pocket sized but you're on CCTV and you have to wait for the
train/tram/bus to show up and in the meantime you're a sitting duck for plod.
Roland Perry
2024-04-17 11:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 17 Apr 2024 11:36:12 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Bevan Price
Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like an
invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
I remember asking a B&B owner in Skye what difference the bridge had
made. "More petty crime" she said.
A common complaint. When I lived in the outer suburbs of Atlanta the
main (and successful) pressure group against the extension of their
metro system, was based on the fear of Chavs from the inner city using
it as a means to facilitate a smash-and-grab on their homes.
The issue wasn’t primarily to do with undesirables arriving, but with the
ability to get off the island more quickly. As another posting pointed
out, a tram is not a very plausible getaway vehicle, and a ferry even less
so.
Of all the ways to make a getaway from a robbery, public transport is probably
the worst option. Not only would it be obvious if you're carrying anything
bigger that pocket sized but you're on CCTV and you have to wait for the
train/tram/bus to show up and in the meantime you're a sitting duck for plod.
Yes, but in a democracy, if the majority of the public think otherwise,
then they prevail.
--
Roland Perry
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-04-17 13:32:15 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Apr 2024 12:50:51 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 17 Apr 2024 11:36:12 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Bevan Price
Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like an
invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
I remember asking a B&B owner in Skye what difference the bridge had
made. "More petty crime" she said.
A common complaint. When I lived in the outer suburbs of Atlanta the
main (and successful) pressure group against the extension of their
metro system, was based on the fear of Chavs from the inner city using
it as a means to facilitate a smash-and-grab on their homes.
The issue wasn’t primarily to do with undesirables arriving, but with
the
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
ability to get off the island more quickly. As another posting pointed
out, a tram is not a very plausible getaway vehicle, and a ferry even less
so.
Of all the ways to make a getaway from a robbery, public transport is probably
the worst option. Not only would it be obvious if you're carrying anything
bigger that pocket sized but you're on CCTV and you have to wait for the
train/tram/bus to show up and in the meantime you're a sitting duck for plod.
Yes, but in a democracy, if the majority of the public think otherwise,
then they prevail.
Huh? Watcha talkin bout Willis?
Sam Wilson
2024-04-17 14:14:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 17 Apr 2024 12:50:51 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 17 Apr 2024 11:36:12 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Bevan Price
Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like an
invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
I remember asking a B&B owner in Skye what difference the bridge had
made. "More petty crime" she said.
A common complaint. When I lived in the outer suburbs of Atlanta the
main (and successful) pressure group against the extension of their
metro system, was based on the fear of Chavs from the inner city using
it as a means to facilitate a smash-and-grab on their homes.
The issue wasn’t primarily to do with undesirables arriving, but with
the
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
ability to get off the island more quickly. As another posting pointed
out, a tram is not a very plausible getaway vehicle, and a ferry even less
so.
Of all the ways to make a getaway from a robbery, public transport is probably
the worst option. Not only would it be obvious if you're carrying anything
bigger that pocket sized but you're on CCTV and you have to wait for the
train/tram/bus to show up and in the meantime you're a sitting duck for plod.
Yes, but in a democracy, if the majority of the public think otherwise,
then they prevail.
Huh? Watcha talkin bout Willis?
Didn’t you hear about the new law that makes it a legal requirement for
criminals to use public transport to make their escape?

Same
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-04-17 16:16:31 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Apr 2024 14:14:25 -0000 (UTC)
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 17 Apr 2024 12:50:51 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Yes, but in a democracy, if the majority of the public think otherwise,
then they prevail.
Huh? Watcha talkin bout Willis?
Didn’t you hear about the new law that makes it a legal requirement for
criminals to use public transport to make their escape?
Would keep the BTP busy!
Roland Perry
2024-04-17 11:49:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Bevan Price
Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like an
invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
I remember asking a B&B owner in Skye what difference the bridge had
made. "More petty crime" she said.
A common complaint. When I lived in the outer suburbs of Atlanta the
main (and successful) pressure group against the extension of their
metro system, was based on the fear of Chavs from the inner city using
it as a means to facilitate a smash-and-grab on their homes.
The issue wasn’t primarily to do with undesirables arriving, but with the
ability to get off the island more quickly.
What's your business model there? Tourists staying on the Island doing
day-trips to the mainland perhaps.
Post by Sam Wilson
As another posting pointed
out, a tram is not a very plausible getaway vehicle, and a ferry even less
so.
Sam
--
Roland Perry
Sam Wilson
2024-04-17 14:14:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Bevan Price
Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like an
invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
I remember asking a B&B owner in Skye what difference the bridge had
made. "More petty crime" she said.
A common complaint. When I lived in the outer suburbs of Atlanta the
main (and successful) pressure group against the extension of their
metro system, was based on the fear of Chavs from the inner city using
it as a means to facilitate a smash-and-grab on their homes.
The issue wasn’t primarily to do with undesirables arriving, but with the
ability to get off the island more quickly.
What's your business model there? Tourists staying on the Island doing
day-trips to the mainland perhaps.
Business model? I’m not sure I’m following the thread of this
conversation.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Roland Perry
2024-04-17 14:35:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Bevan Price
Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like an
invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
I remember asking a B&B owner in Skye what difference the bridge had
made. "More petty crime" she said.
A common complaint. When I lived in the outer suburbs of Atlanta the
main (and successful) pressure group against the extension of their
metro system, was based on the fear of Chavs from the inner city using
it as a means to facilitate a smash-and-grab on their homes.
The issue wasn’t primarily to do with undesirables arriving, but with the
ability to get off the island more quickly.
What's your business model there? Tourists staying on the Island doing
day-trips to the mainland perhaps.
Business model? I’m not sure I’m following the thread of this
conversation.
In words of one syllable: what is the risk to Island residents of
tourists being able to leave [more quickly]?

And why is that risk greater than the benefit of tourists being able to
arrive.
--
Roland Perry
Sam Wilson
2024-04-17 19:19:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Bevan Price
Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like an
invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
I remember asking a B&B owner in Skye what difference the bridge had
made. "More petty crime" she said.
A common complaint. When I lived in the outer suburbs of Atlanta the
main (and successful) pressure group against the extension of their
metro system, was based on the fear of Chavs from the inner city using
it as a means to facilitate a smash-and-grab on their homes.
The issue wasn’t primarily to do with undesirables arriving, but with the
ability to get off the island more quickly.
What's your business model there? Tourists staying on the Island doing
day-trips to the mainland perhaps.
Business model? I’m not sure I’m following the thread of this
conversation.
In words of one syllable: what is the risk to Island residents of
tourists being able to leave [more quickly]?
The risk, actually I think from the timing more of an observation, was that
thieves perceived a lower risk of being apprehended if they could just
drive off the island rather than waiting in the ferry queue.
Post by Roland Perry
And why is that risk greater than the benefit of tourists being able to
arrive.
The conversation wasn’t about balance of risk or benefit, just about what
difference the bridge had made.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Recliner
2024-04-17 12:07:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Bevan Price
Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like an
invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
I remember asking a B&B owner in Skye what difference the bridge had
made. "More petty crime" she said.
A common complaint. When I lived in the outer suburbs of Atlanta the
main (and successful) pressure group against the extension of their
metro system, was based on the fear of Chavs from the inner city using
it as a means to facilitate a smash-and-grab on their homes.
I assume by Chavs you mean blacks? Not for nothing was MARTA nicknamed
Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta.
Roland Perry
2024-04-17 14:26:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Bevan Price
Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like an
invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
I remember asking a B&B owner in Skye what difference the bridge had
made. "More petty crime" she said.
A common complaint. When I lived in the outer suburbs of Atlanta the
main (and successful) pressure group against the extension of their
metro system, was based on the fear of Chavs from the inner city using
it as a means to facilitate a smash-and-grab on their homes.
I assume by Chavs you mean blacks?
No, it stands for "Council House and Violent", and central Atlanta was
riddled with council housing (which they call "The [housing] Projects").
Post by Recliner
Not for nothing was MARTA nicknamed Moving Africans Rapidly Through
Atlanta.
Even the persons of colour are overwhelmingly Nth-generation Americans
(that's what the Civil War was about).

But seeing as you've brought it up, I did an online search, and
apparently that term's associated with being a "Racist suburbanite".

On the bright side, they've now extended MARTA to the airport, having
previously passive-aggressively terminated it slightly short.

Although that's just the MARTA metro, and the majority of MARTA is bus
services.
--
Roland Perry
John Levine
2024-04-17 17:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Not for nothing was MARTA nicknamed Moving Africans Rapidly Through
Atlanta.
Even the persons of colour are overwhelmingly Nth-generation Americans
(that's what the Civil War was about).
Black Americans are much more likely to be Nth generation than whites.
There's been very little immigration of Blacks since the slave trade was
outlawed in 1808 but vast numbers of whites.
Post by Roland Perry
But seeing as you've brought it up, I did an online search, and
apparently that term's associated with being a "Racist suburbanite".
There's a lot of that in the U.S. Oh no, we're not racists, we want
to preserve and enhance the lovely character of our community.
Post by Roland Perry
On the bright side, they've now extended MARTA to the airport, having
previously passive-aggressively terminated it slightly short.
News must travel slowly across the pond, since that station opened in 1988.

When I've gone to meetings in Atlanta I always take the subway (as we
call it) to and from my hotel which is fast, cheap, and convenient.
People look at me like I'm out of my mind.
--
Regards,
John Levine, ***@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Recliner
2024-04-17 18:44:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Levine
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Not for nothing was MARTA nicknamed Moving Africans Rapidly Through
Atlanta.
Even the persons of colour are overwhelmingly Nth-generation Americans
(that's what the Civil War was about).
Black Americans are much more likely to be Nth generation than whites.
There's been very little immigration of Blacks since the slave trade was
outlawed in 1808 but vast numbers of whites.
They're still called African-Americans, despite most never having met an
African.
Post by John Levine
Post by Roland Perry
But seeing as you've brought it up, I did an online search, and
apparently that term's associated with being a "Racist suburbanite".
There's a lot of that in the U.S. Oh no, we're not racists, we want
to preserve and enhance the lovely character of our community.
They tend to shoot jogging blacks who stray into their white suburbs.
Post by John Levine
Post by Roland Perry
On the bright side, they've now extended MARTA to the airport, having
previously passive-aggressively terminated it slightly short.
News must travel slowly across the pond, since that station opened in 1988.
When I've gone to meetings in Atlanta I always take the subway (as we
call it) to and from my hotel which is fast, cheap, and convenient.
People look at me like I'm out of my mind.
Yes, I'm sure I took MARTA to the airport about 25 years ago.
Roland Perry
2024-04-17 19:13:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Levine
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Not for nothing was MARTA nicknamed Moving Africans Rapidly Through
Atlanta.
Even the persons of colour are overwhelmingly Nth-generation Americans
(that's what the Civil War was about).
Black Americans are much more likely to be Nth generation than whites.
There's been very little immigration of Blacks since the slave trade was
outlawed in 1808 but vast numbers of whites.
Post by Roland Perry
But seeing as you've brought it up, I did an online search, and
apparently that term's associated with being a "Racist suburbanite".
There's a lot of that in the U.S. Oh no, we're not racists, we want
to preserve and enhance the lovely character of our community.
Post by Roland Perry
On the bright side, they've now extended MARTA to the airport, having
previously passive-aggressively terminated it slightly short.
News must travel slowly across the pond, since that station opened in 1988.
The majority of my business trips to Atlanta were before that.
Post by John Levine
When I've gone to meetings in Atlanta I always take the subway (as we
call it) to and from my hotel which is fast, cheap, and convenient.
People look at me like I'm out of my mind.
Same here. And I remember meeting some of the "Booth Babies" (that's a
term of art, m'lud) who confided they'd only risk walking from the car
park to the conference centre if they had a hand-gun in their bag.
--
Roland Perry
Ken
2024-04-18 08:10:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
No, it stands for "Council House and Violent", and central Atlanta was
riddled with council housing (which they call "The [housing] Projects").
That's cod etymology. No more accurate than Port Out Starboard Home or
Orl Korrect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_false_etymologies_of_English_words
Recliner
2024-04-18 08:33:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken
Post by Roland Perry
No, it stands for "Council House and Violent", and central Atlanta was
riddled with council housing (which they call "The [housing] Projects").
That's cod etymology. No more accurate than Port Out Starboard Home or
Orl Korrect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_false_etymologies_of_English_words
In any case, Americans wouldn't define a term based on 'council housing',
which they don't have.
Roland Perry
2024-04-18 09:14:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Ken
Post by Roland Perry
No, it stands for "Council House and Violent", and central Atlanta was
riddled with council housing (which they call "The [housing] Projects").
That's cod etymology. No more accurate than Port Out Starboard Home or
Orl Korrect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_false_etymologies_of_Engli
sh_words
In any case, Americans wouldn't define a term based on 'council housing',
which they don't have.
On the contrary, countrywide you have HUD doing the policy and
co-ordination, and in most cities "public housing".

https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/public_indian_housing/pha/contacts

Public Housing and Indian Housing, not just Indian that's public.
--
Roland Perry
Marland
2024-04-18 11:02:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Ken
Post by Roland Perry
No, it stands for "Council House and Violent", and central Atlanta was
riddled with council housing (which they call "The [housing] Projects").
That's cod etymology. No more accurate than Port Out Starboard Home or
Orl Korrect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_false_etymologies_of_Engli
sh_words
In any case, Americans wouldn't define a term based on 'council housing',
which they don't have.
On the contrary, countrywide you have HUD doing the policy and
co-ordination, and in most cities "public housing".
https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/public_indian_housing/pha/contacts
Public Housing and Indian Housing, not just Indian that's public.
ohh look , Rolands getting bored and trying to start a sub thread so he
can have an argument,
daytime television must be a bit naff this morning.


Almost all developed countries have some form of public housing,
Council Housing has been the term used mainly in England and Wales though
it probably isn’t as accurate as it once was as some have offloaded to
housing associations.
Scotland ISTR used the word scheme for their Estates though I don’t know if
it is universal.

GH
Sam Wilson
2024-04-18 12:43:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Ken
Post by Roland Perry
No, it stands for "Council House and Violent", and central Atlanta was
riddled with council housing (which they call "The [housing] Projects").
That's cod etymology. No more accurate than Port Out Starboard Home or
Orl Korrect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_false_etymologies_of_Engli
sh_words
In any case, Americans wouldn't define a term based on 'council housing',
which they don't have.
On the contrary, countrywide you have HUD doing the policy and
co-ordination, and in most cities "public housing".
https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/public_indian_housing/pha/contacts
Public Housing and Indian Housing, not just Indian that's public.
ohh look , Rolands getting bored and trying to start a sub thread so he
can have an argument,
daytime television must be a bit naff this morning.
Almost all developed countries have some form of public housing,
Council Housing has been the term used mainly in England and Wales though
it probably isn’t as accurate as it once was as some have offloaded to
housing associations.
Scotland ISTR used the word scheme for their Estates though I don’t know if
it is universal.
Yeah, housing schemes are the usual description, along with the perjorative
“schemie” for an inhabitant thereof.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Roland Perry
2024-04-18 17:29:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
In any case, Americans wouldn't define a term based on 'council housing',
which they don't have.
On the contrary, countrywide you have HUD doing the policy and
co-ordination, and in most cities "public housing".
https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/public_indian_housing/pha/contacts
Public Housing and Indian Housing, not just Indian that's public.
ohh look , Rolands getting bored and trying to start a sub thread so he
can have an argument, daytime television must be a bit naff this
morning.
No, I'm simply debunking the preposterous idea that the USA doesn't have
public housing (provided by the local City Council).
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2024-04-18 17:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Council Housing has been the term used mainly in England and Wales though
it probably isn’t as accurate as it once was as some have offloaded to
housing associations.
However those housing associations usually only do the infrastructure,
while the council's housing department continues to do the public-facing
management (including selecting tenants, dealing with complaints etc).
--
Roland Perry
Sam Wilson
2024-04-18 12:43:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Ken
Post by Roland Perry
No, it stands for "Council House and Violent", and central Atlanta was
riddled with council housing (which they call "The [housing] Projects").
That's cod etymology. No more accurate than Port Out Starboard Home or
Orl Korrect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_false_etymologies_of_English_words
In any case, Americans wouldn't define a term based on 'council housing',
which they don't have.
Yes, I once confused an American cousin by saying I was working on a
project. She thought I was working in social housing.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Roland Perry
2024-04-18 08:29:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken
Post by Roland Perry
No, it stands for "Council House and Violent", and central Atlanta was
riddled with council housing (which they call "The [housing] Projects").
That's cod etymology. No more accurate than Port Out Starboard Home or
Orl Korrect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_false_etymologies_of_English_words
Whatever the derivation, it's in common parlance. But more to the point
there's no hint of racism.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2024-04-18 08:39:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ken
Post by Roland Perry
No, it stands for "Council House and Violent", and central Atlanta was
riddled with council housing (which they call "The [housing] Projects").
That's cod etymology. No more accurate than Port Out Starboard Home or
Orl Korrect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_false_etymologies_of_English_words
Whatever the derivation, it's in common parlance. But more to the point
there's no hint of racism.
Chav isn't a term known in the US. I think it's a purely British term,
and, if anything, refers to white working class Brits, who may or may not
live in council houses. The Americans have plenty of both subtle and
blatantly racist terms of their own.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/chav
Roland Perry
2024-04-18 08:58:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ken
Post by Roland Perry
No, it stands for "Council House and Violent", and central Atlanta was
riddled with council housing (which they call "The [housing] Projects").
That's cod etymology. No more accurate than Port Out Starboard Home or
Orl Korrect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_false_etymologies_of_Engl
ish_words
Whatever the derivation, it's in common parlance. But more to the point
there's no hint of racism.
Chav isn't a term known in the US.
That's OK, because I'm writing for a UK audience.
Post by Recliner
I think it's a purely British term,
and, if anything, refers to white working class Brits, who may or may not
live in council houses. The Americans have plenty of both subtle and
blatantly racist terms of their own.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/chav
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2024-04-18 09:11:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ken
Post by Roland Perry
No, it stands for "Council House and Violent", and central Atlanta was
riddled with council housing (which they call "The [housing] Projects").
That's cod etymology. No more accurate than Port Out Starboard Home or
Orl Korrect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_false_etymologies_of_Engl
ish_words
Whatever the derivation, it's in common parlance. But more to the point
there's no hint of racism.
Chav isn't a term known in the US.
That's OK, because I'm writing for a UK audience.
We were discussing the local racist definition of MARTA. Chavs don't come
into it, as there aren't any in Atlanta.
Charles Ellson
2024-04-18 19:08:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ken
Post by Roland Perry
No, it stands for "Council House and Violent", and central Atlanta was
riddled with council housing (which they call "The [housing] Projects").
That's cod etymology. No more accurate than Port Out Starboard Home or
Orl Korrect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_false_etymologies_of_Engl
ish_words
Whatever the derivation, it's in common parlance. But more to the point
there's no hint of racism.
Chav isn't a term known in the US.
That's OK, because I'm writing for a UK audience.
We were discussing the local racist definition of MARTA. Chavs don't come
into it, as there aren't any in Atlanta.
There are plenty just as there will be plenty of neds. Different words
for the same societal dross.
Marland
2024-04-18 11:02:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ken
Post by Roland Perry
No, it stands for "Council House and Violent", and central Atlanta was
riddled with council housing (which they call "The [housing] Projects").
That's cod etymology. No more accurate than Port Out Starboard Home or
Orl Korrect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_false_etymologies_of_English_words
Whatever the derivation, it's in common parlance. But more to the point
there's no hint of racism.
Though if CHAV has developed from what Romanies may have called some of
their children and you used it to insult them you could be accused of using
racist language.as they are officially a minority ethnic group.

GH
Mark Goodge
2024-04-18 16:50:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ken
Post by Roland Perry
No, it stands for "Council House and Violent", and central Atlanta was
riddled with council housing (which they call "The [housing] Projects").
That's cod etymology. No more accurate than Port Out Starboard Home or
Orl Korrect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_false_etymologies_of_English_words
Whatever the derivation, it's in common parlance. But more to the point
there's no hint of racism.
Though if CHAV has developed from what Romanies may have called some of
their children and you used it to insult them you could be accused of using
racist language.as they are officially a minority ethnic group.
Google ngrams has entries for 'chav' going back to the mid 17th century,
although of course some of the older ones could be transcription errors.
What's possibly more interesting is that it seemed to be in reasonably
common usage up to the early 19th century, before gradually fading away,
only to resurge massively shortly after the millennium.

The OED (cited by Wikipedia) says that the modern usage appears to stem from
a Usenet post in 1998, which would fit with the ngram graphs.

Mark
Charles Ellson
2024-04-18 19:05:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Bevan Price
Also, I suspect there would be some NIMBY types would would not like an
invasion by hordes of tourist cars or pollution-causing lorries.
I remember asking a B&B owner in Skye what difference the bridge had
made. "More petty crime" she said.
A common complaint. When I lived in the outer suburbs of Atlanta the
main (and successful) pressure group against the extension of their
metro system, was based on the fear of Chavs from the inner city using
it as a means to facilitate a smash-and-grab on their homes.
I assume by Chavs you mean blacks?
No, it stands for "Council House and Violent", and central Atlanta was
riddled with council housing (which they call "The [housing] Projects").
Chav comes from the Romany word "chavo/chavi" which means a boy or
youth.
See also the backslang "yob" with comparable connotations.
<snip>
Marland
2024-04-15 19:18:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 13:43:58 +0100
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 15 Apr 2024 09:49:00 GMT
Post by Marland
How was your Ferry crossing? Both routes have been suffering from service
interruptions
recently due to lack of staff and mechanical failures. There was a
family featured on the local radio
desperate to get off the Island to get to an airport for a flight but were
stranded due to cancellations.
Don’t know if they made it in the end.
No problems either way with Wightlink.
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24191253.red-funnel-ceo-apologises-southampton
-isle-wight-ferry-delay/
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24220244.isle-wight-ferry-red-funnel-issues-pr
ompt-independent-investigation/
Frankly I'm surprised a bridge has never been built to the island. Though I
guess the locals quite like being an island as that is half the appeal of
living there so maybe there'd be too much opposition.
Due to the shipping activity in Portsmouth and Southampton, if a bridge
were built it would likely need to be at the western end of the Solent,
meaning access roads would need to be driven through the New Forrest,
likely to cause strong opposition.
Robin
Why not reopen the Railway that linked from the Lymington Branch?

After all it was on the map .

<https://maps.nls.uk/view/97131110>







Don’t this seriously.

GH
Certes
2024-04-15 19:44:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Why not reopen the Railway that linked from the Lymington Branch?
After all it was on the map .
<https://maps.nls.uk/view/97131110>
Don’t this seriously.
An early but very well presented example of crayons on a map.
I particularly enjoyed the tunnel portal in the middle of a marsh and
the junction suspended above the Yar estuary.
Tweed
2024-04-15 19:44:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Bob
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 13:43:58 +0100
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 15 Apr 2024 09:49:00 GMT
Post by Marland
How was your Ferry crossing? Both routes have been suffering from service
interruptions
recently due to lack of staff and mechanical failures. There was a
family featured on the local radio
desperate to get off the Island to get to an airport for a flight but were
stranded due to cancellations.
Don’t know if they made it in the end.
No problems either way with Wightlink.
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24191253.red-funnel-ceo-apologises-southampton
-isle-wight-ferry-delay/
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24220244.isle-wight-ferry-red-funnel-issues-pr
ompt-independent-investigation/
Frankly I'm surprised a bridge has never been built to the island. Though I
guess the locals quite like being an island as that is half the appeal of
living there so maybe there'd be too much opposition.
Due to the shipping activity in Portsmouth and Southampton, if a bridge
were built it would likely need to be at the western end of the Solent,
meaning access roads would need to be driven through the New Forrest,
likely to cause strong opposition.
Robin
Why not reopen the Railway that linked from the Lymington Branch?
After all it was on the map .
<https://maps.nls.uk/view/97131110>
Don’t this seriously.
GH
Just dig an underground tunnel. After all, they’ve already got the rolling
stock…
Roland Perry
2024-04-16 10:15:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Just dig an underground tunnel.
They do tend to work better than overground tunnels. (I'll get my
Wombling coat).
--
Roland Perry
ColinR
2024-04-16 13:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Just dig an underground tunnel.
They do tend to work better than overground tunnels. (I'll get my
Wombling coat).
;-)
Rolf Mantel
2024-04-16 15:13:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Just dig an underground tunnel.
They do tend to work better than overground tunnels. (I'll get my
Wombling coat).
Actually, pre-fab overground tunnels on the seabed (like "cut-and-cover"
on land) are significantly better value-for-money, that's why the tunnel
from Germany to Denmark is being built that way ;-)
Graeme Wall
2024-04-15 16:24:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 13:43:58 +0100
Post by ColinR
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On 15 Apr 2024 09:49:00 GMT
Post by Marland
How was your Ferry crossing? Both routes have been suffering from service
interruptions
recently due to lack of staff and mechanical failures. There was a
family featured on the local radio
desperate to get off the Island to get to an airport for a flight but were
stranded due to cancellations.
Don’t know if they made it in the end.
No problems either way with Wightlink.
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24191253.red-funnel-ceo-apologises-southampton
-isle-wight-ferry-delay/
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24220244.isle-wight-ferry-red-funnel-issues-pr
ompt-independent-investigation/
Frankly I'm surprised a bridge has never been built to the island. Though I
guess the locals quite like being an island as that is half the appeal of
living there so maybe there'd be too much opposition.
The only practical point to build a bridge would be across Hurst Spit
and that would have to clear a major shipping lane. There is no decent
road connection on either side of the water.

There have been a number of proposals for a tunnel from Stokes Bay, last
one was going to use one of the redundant tunnelling machines from the
Channel Tunnel. Probably updated to using one of the crossrail machines.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Recliner
2024-04-15 11:13:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
I finally got around to riding the 484s on the isle of wight. Vivarail did a
very nice job. Interesting contrast between the sound of the new traction
inverters and the LU DC motors which they retained.
Makes me wonder , if a small company managed to refurbish these trains so well
why didn't LU do it instead of buying entirely new S Stock trains? I assume
there must have been good reasons not to.
Although there are some differences in seating layout and train length
basically the S stock is all one design, LU felt that having one pool of
spares, technicians,and drivers etc only need training on one design for
the subsurface lines and while the production line was running the
investment of getting new trains with the walkthrough feature ,Air con ,
disabled bays etc was better value than another refurbishment of the D
stock which would not have been able to achieve all those aims.
The A stock had reached (or exceeded) the end of its life and had to be
replaced, while the C stock was also approaching end-of-life. LU needed to
increase frequencies on the core, shared SSL network, which required ATO,
computer control and faster acceleration.

This would only be possible once all the SSL lines used compatible trains
with the same performance and ATO, which meant bringing forward the
replacement of the D stock. But it still served 37 years, which isn't bad.
Having the same stock on the District, Circle and H&C lines also has
obvious benefits. And as we know, the inner city stock can also operate
without problems on the Met, and I think there's still one S7+1 unit in
operation.

If funding can be found, LU wants to repeat this on the Tube lines, with
the same basic design replacing the 72, 73 and 92TS over the next decade.
In due course, the 95 and 96TS could follow.
M***@dastardlyhq.com
2024-04-15 15:45:36 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 11:13:47 GMT
Post by Recliner
If funding can be found, LU wants to repeat this on the Tube lines, with
the same basic design replacing the 72, 73 and 92TS over the next decade.
The 92 stock is currently having a rather expensive refurb. Not sure they'll
want to be replacing it anytime soon tbh.
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