Discussion:
Uber Representative Calls For A United Protest
(too old to reply)
Robin9
2019-02-10 15:24:42 UTC
Permalink
The Uber representative of the GMB Union has sent out
a message, calling on GMB members to protest against
the change in minicab (PHV) drivers' status regardin
the congestion charge

You will know that Transport for London is imposing the Congestio
Charge on you and all licenced private hire drivers from the 8 Apri
2019. This charge imposes a heavy burden on drivers, in addition t
other costs we face such as the cost or rental of vehicle; high
insurance; heavy maintenance and running costs; etc. The GMB hav
protested against these charges, see https://bit.ly/2UjsZ2t, and hav
made representations to TfL and the Mayor. They have not responded

To show our opposition to TfL’s proposals we are joining th
Monday demonstrations and are asking you to show your disapproval of th
Mayor’s unjust actions. The details are:

Monday 11th February, from 4 to 6 pm, at London Bridg

We need to show our solidarity and unity. Banners and placards will b
available. Contact Dennis on ***@gmbdrivers.org fo
further details

Pass this information onto other private hire drivers; bring you
friends and family. If this action goes through it will kill th
private hire profession in London

Kind regards

Dennis Bartholomew
UBER Representativ
Professional Drivers G5
-------------------------------------
When Ken Livingstone first planned the fraudulently
named congestion charge, minicab drivers were going to
pay. He soon realised that the charge would be passed on
to customers and he decided to exempt minicab drivers

Our new Mayor, strapped for cash partly through his ow
doing, has decided minicab drivers will now have to pay

I'm not sure what to make of the fact that this call to arms
comes not from the GMB itself but from a Uber representative


--
Robin9
John Williamson
2019-02-11 13:13:39 UTC
Permalink
Pass this information onto other private hire drivers; bring your
friends and family. If this action goes through it will kill the
private hire profession in London.
The proposal will not "kill the private hire profession in London", all
that will happen is that the prices will go up, and the cynic in me says
they will go up by more than the congestion charge.

It will add a maximum of £21.50 per day to the running costs of the
vehicle, less if it is hybrid or petrol engined.

Wait until Sadiq Khan's plan to ban all diesel engines comes in....
--
Tciao for Now!

John.
Robin9
2019-02-12 09:07:10 UTC
Permalink
I think it's certain that prices will go up. The Uber rep is obviously
concerned primarily about Uber drivers working in "the middle"
but there is also the issue of suburban PHV drivers who make only
one trip per day into central London.

If, for example, a driver takes an outer suburban customer to
Barts Hospital, that customer will be the only one that day
necessitating the driver to pay the surcharge. Presumably the
entire charge will be added to that passenger's fare. The customer
will not be pleased with Mr. Khan


--
Robin9
John Williamson
2019-02-12 12:22:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin9
I think it's certain that prices will go up. The Uber rep is obviously
concerned primarily about Uber drivers working in "the middle"
but there is also the issue of suburban PHV drivers who make only
one trip per day into central London.
If, for example, a driver takes an outer suburban customer to
Barts Hospital, that customer will be the only one that day
necessitating the driver to pay the surcharge. Presumably the
entire charge will be added to that passenger's fare. The customer
will not be pleased with Mr. Khan!
As far as Uber goes, that can be done automatically by the app,
hopefully with an explanation. Or Uber can arrange things so the driver
has a full day in the centre once he's cleared the Bart's job.

What's really going to piss them off is the new ULEZ that kicks in on
the date given, so anything earlier than Euro 6 will cost a fortune to
take in. It's also annoying transport companies, as using any lorry or
coach older than Euro 6 will cost £200 a day. The company I work for has
has to spend over two million quid to update our fleet to comply.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.
David Walters
2019-02-12 14:00:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Williamson
What's really going to piss them off is the new ULEZ that kicks in on
the date given, so anything earlier than Euro 6
Or Euro 4 for petrol.
Post by John Williamson
will cost a fortune to
take in. It's also annoying transport companies, as using any lorry or
coach older than Euro 6 will cost £200 a day. The company I work for has
has to spend over two million quid to update our fleet to comply.
That's not annoying, that's fantastic news for the people that breath
the air in London[1]. I look forward to the improvement in air quality for
millions and the resultant improvement in health and healthcare savings.

[1] And the bits of not London that the vehicles also drive in.
John Williamson
2019-02-12 14:18:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Walters
That's not annoying, that's fantastic news for the people that breath
the air in London[1]. I look forward to the improvement in air quality for
millions and the resultant improvement in health and healthcare savings.
You won't notice any difference, and nor will the health services. Most
commercial vehicles going into the London ULEZ have been at the
appropriate Euro level for a long time now, and nobody seems to be
celebrating yet.

What people will notice is that it will cost more to deliver goods and
people to London, so Londoners will pay more for their groceries, and
there will be fewer tourists, leading to problems for the many
businesses that depend on them.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.
David Walters
2019-02-12 14:23:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Williamson
Most
commercial vehicles going into the London ULEZ have been at the
appropriate Euro level for a long time now, and nobody seems to be
celebrating yet.
What people will notice is that it will cost more to deliver goods and
people to London, so Londoners will pay more for their groceries, and
there will be fewer tourists, leading to problems for the many
businesses that depend on them.
If most commercial vehicles don't need changing then delivery costs will
mostly stay the same and prices will mostly not increase (or if they do
it will not be a significant increase).
b***@7fbp9eng1yi.gov.uk
2019-02-12 17:29:42 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 14:00:30 +0000
On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 12:22:20 +0000, John Williamson
Post by John Williamson
What's really going to piss them off is the new ULEZ that kicks in on
the date given, so anything earlier than Euro 6
Or Euro 4 for petrol.
Post by John Williamson
will cost a fortune to
take in. It's also annoying transport companies, as using any lorry or
coach older than Euro 6 will cost £200 a day. The company I work for has
has to spend over two million quid to update our fleet to comply.
That's not annoying, that's fantastic news for the people that breath
the air in London[1]. I look forward to the improvement in air quality for
millions and the resultant improvement in health and healthcare savings.
Meanwhile all the extra CO2 from the manufacture of the replacement vehicles
chain will simple hasten climate change that little bit faster. I'll take
local pollution over global pollution any day. And a lot of the people whining
about air quality are the same people who install wood burning stoves in their
farrow and ball decorated living rooms.
John Williamson
2019-02-12 20:14:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@7fbp9eng1yi.gov.uk
Meanwhile all the extra CO2 from the manufacture of the replacement vehicles
chain will simple hasten climate change that little bit faster. I'll take
local pollution over global pollution any day. And a lot of the people whining
about air quality are the same people who install wood burning stoves in their
farrow and ball decorated living rooms.
Ah, well, the new Clean Air Act will sort those out. The first step will
be to ban the installation of new wood stoves that don't comply with the
emissions rules, as well as banning the retail sale of non-approved
solid fuels and unseasoned wood in many boroughs of London under powers
the Act grants to local authorities.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.
b***@8ntap6et65uck_.net
2019-02-12 17:27:26 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 12:22:20 +0000
Post by John Williamson
Post by Robin9
I think it's certain that prices will go up. The Uber rep is obviously
concerned primarily about Uber drivers working in "the middle"
but there is also the issue of suburban PHV drivers who make only
one trip per day into central London.
If, for example, a driver takes an outer suburban customer to
Barts Hospital, that customer will be the only one that day
necessitating the driver to pay the surcharge. Presumably the
entire charge will be added to that passenger's fare. The customer
will not be pleased with Mr. Khan!
As far as Uber goes, that can be done automatically by the app,
hopefully with an explanation. Or Uber can arrange things so the driver
has a full day in the centre once he's cleared the Bart's job.
What's really going to piss them off is the new ULEZ that kicks in on
the date given, so anything earlier than Euro 6 will cost a fortune to
take in. It's also annoying transport companies, as using any lorry or
coach older than Euro 6 will cost £200 a day. The company I work for has
has to spend over two million quid to update our fleet to comply.
I have wondered if all the transport companies should have got together and
refused to make deliveries if they have to pay the charge and see what the
little squirt does when the shelves empty in central london.
John Williamson
2019-02-12 20:10:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@8ntap6et65uck_.net
I have wondered if all the transport companies should have got together and
refused to make deliveries if they have to pay the charge and see what the
little squirt does when the shelves empty in central london.
A nice idea, but there are very few transport companies in a position to
influence the vote in central London. The only way to prevent what Khan
and BoJo before him wanted to do would be to get local voters to
threaten to vote them out.

Refusing to deliver stuff would just annoy the voters, and make them
more likely to support Khan, if anything.

I drive a coach for a living, and I know that the industry has been
lobbying strongly, and has been totally ignored. I assume the haulage
industry has been doing the same.

On the other hand, a lot of "important" people live and vote in Central
London, and they tend not to care about the problems and costs of
delivering what they want, but if they can convince themselves that
supporting even the tiny reduction in pollution that will result is
good, then that's what they will vote for.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.
Theo
2019-02-12 20:34:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Williamson
Post by b***@8ntap6et65uck_.net
I have wondered if all the transport companies should have got together
and refused to make deliveries if they have to pay the charge and see
what the little squirt does when the shelves empty in central london.
I drive a coach for a living, and I know that the industry has been
lobbying strongly, and has been totally ignored. I assume the haulage
industry has been doing the same.
The purpose of the plan is to reduce the polluting vehicles in central
London, which it's acknowledged cause too high levels of pollution.
Presumably, lorries and coaches are a big contributor?

So what are the industry proposals that would be a better way to achieve
pollution reductions? What is the industry lobbying *for*, as opposed to
lobbying *against*? (lobbying against taxes is no surprise)

If you dispute that lorries and coaches are major contributors, do you have
evidence for that? If you dispute that pollution is too high, evidence for
that?

Theo
Robin9
2019-02-13 11:05:49 UTC
Permalink
We all know how to reduce air pollution in London caused
by road vehicles. We've been through this several times
before in other threads. Vehicles have not suddenly becom
more polluting in the past twenty years. They have become
cleaner. The huge increase in air pollution in London is becaus
the roads have been changed. (TfL calls them "improvements"
I call it sabotage) Vehicle journeys take far longer, their engines
are running longer; hence an increase in vehicle emissions.

There is also the issue of 20mph zones. Vehicle emit more
pollutants at 20mph than at 30 mph


--
Robin9
b***@7b3uq8l7zpwv0xf2z2m9o.org
2019-02-13 16:31:25 UTC
Permalink
On 12 Feb 2019 20:34:46 +0000 (GMT)
Post by Theo
Post by John Williamson
Post by b***@8ntap6et65uck_.net
I have wondered if all the transport companies should have got together
and refused to make deliveries if they have to pay the charge and see
what the little squirt does when the shelves empty in central london.
I drive a coach for a living, and I know that the industry has been
lobbying strongly, and has been totally ignored. I assume the haulage
industry has been doing the same.
The purpose of the plan is to reduce the polluting vehicles in central
London, which it's acknowledged cause too high levels of pollution.
Presumably, lorries and coaches are a big contributor?
So what are the industry proposals that would be a better way to achieve
pollution reductions? What is the industry lobbying *for*, as opposed to
lobbying *against*? (lobbying against taxes is no surprise)
If you dispute that lorries and coaches are major contributors, do you have
evidence for that? If you dispute that pollution is too high, evidence for
that?
The bus and haulage industry don't build the vehicles. Stuff has to be
delivered somehow unless you want to go back to horse drawn carts and until
battery technology allows viable electric goods vehicles and buses** then its
going be diesel.

** Yes, I know about the battery buses in southwark with their not great range
even on the flat ground on which they operate. Put them on a hampstead route
and see how long the battery charge lasts.
Someone Somewhere
2019-02-14 07:25:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@7b3uq8l7zpwv0xf2z2m9o.org
On 12 Feb 2019 20:34:46 +0000 (GMT)
Post by Theo
Post by John Williamson
Post by b***@8ntap6et65uck_.net
I have wondered if all the transport companies should have got together
and refused to make deliveries if they have to pay the charge and see
what the little squirt does when the shelves empty in central london.
I drive a coach for a living, and I know that the industry has been
lobbying strongly, and has been totally ignored. I assume the haulage
industry has been doing the same.
The purpose of the plan is to reduce the polluting vehicles in central
London, which it's acknowledged cause too high levels of pollution.
Presumably, lorries and coaches are a big contributor?
So what are the industry proposals that would be a better way to achieve
pollution reductions? What is the industry lobbying *for*, as opposed to
lobbying *against*? (lobbying against taxes is no surprise)
If you dispute that lorries and coaches are major contributors, do you have
evidence for that? If you dispute that pollution is too high, evidence for
that?
The bus and haulage industry don't build the vehicles. Stuff has to be
delivered somehow unless you want to go back to horse drawn carts and until
battery technology allows viable electric goods vehicles and buses** then its
going be diesel.
What about the efficiency of the deliveries? How many vans etc are
driving around half empty?

Maybe some idea of huge depots on the M25 where things are delivered to
and then have some system of allocating particular areas to particular
delivery companies so they send in full vehicles that do as little
driving as possible?

Yes - it doesn't work for big goods and/or things that come on lorries
(although it does work for things that come on pallets) but it would be
a start.
Roland Perry
2019-02-14 07:48:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by b***@7b3uq8l7zpwv0xf2z2m9o.org
On 12 Feb 2019 20:34:46 +0000 (GMT)
Post by Theo
Post by John Williamson
Post by b***@8ntap6et65uck_.net
I have wondered if all the transport companies should have got together
and refused to make deliveries if they have to pay the charge and see
what the little squirt does when the shelves empty in central london.
I drive a coach for a living, and I know that the industry has been
lobbying strongly, and has been totally ignored. I assume the haulage
industry has been doing the same.
The purpose of the plan is to reduce the polluting vehicles in central
London, which it's acknowledged cause too high levels of pollution.
Presumably, lorries and coaches are a big contributor?
So what are the industry proposals that would be a better way to achieve
pollution reductions? What is the industry lobbying *for*, as opposed to
lobbying *against*? (lobbying against taxes is no surprise)
If you dispute that lorries and coaches are major contributors, do you have
evidence for that? If you dispute that pollution is too high, evidence for
that?
The bus and haulage industry don't build the vehicles. Stuff has to be
delivered somehow unless you want to go back to horse drawn carts and until
battery technology allows viable electric goods vehicles and buses** then its
going be diesel.
What about the efficiency of the deliveries? How many vans etc are
driving around half empty?
Maybe some idea of huge depots on the M25 where things are delivered to
and then have some system of allocating particular areas to particular
delivery companies so they send in full vehicles that do as little
driving as possible?
Yes - it doesn't work for big goods and/or things that come on lorries
(although it does work for things that come on pallets) but it would be
a start.
A lot of the things being delivered in central London will be in
(wheeled) cages. It's a bit unusual to see a fork-lift truck unloading
palettes in WC1. The trick with cages is to load them into the van in
the correct order, so the ones you want first are by the doors at the
back.

Distribution depots on/outside the M25 already do a pretty good job
sorting and consolidating deliveries. They don't send one truck of baked
beans around several destinations, followed by a truck of Cornflakes to
make numerous drop-offs. They'll load the truck with a mixture of Baked
Beans, Cornflakes etc and try to have the minimum number of drop-offs.

The cost of operating the trucks is mainly time and mileage (not a
relatively small access fee) and therefore they have that sort of thing
pretty well optimised already.
--
Roland Perry
Theo
2019-02-14 12:22:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
The cost of operating the trucks is mainly time and mileage (not a
relatively small access fee) and therefore they have that sort of thing
pretty well optimised already.
Pollution is an externality. There's not a lot of difference in road tax
between a Euro 1-5 truck and a Euro 6 truck. As a haulier, I can buy a 15
year old truck for a lot less than a new one, and the operating costs are
broadly the same (maybe the new one is more fuel efficient, but that's
probably less of a concern in London where distances aren't so large).

If a haulier wants to 'do the right thing' by running newer trucks, the risk
is they're undercut by a competitor who doesn't.

By including the costs of pollution in the bottom line, it now makes an
economic incentive to invest in newer vehicles. And the playing field is
level because everyone is under the same pressure.

It might end up costing the consumer slightly more, which comes down to the
question: do you want to live in a polluted city or don't you?
(also not to forget the costs of pollution that taxpayers pay, eg in extra
healthcare, and the way that the effects of pollution may not be evenly
distributed across the population)

Theo
b***@sldeet5x4o.edu
2019-02-14 12:56:26 UTC
Permalink
On 14 Feb 2019 12:22:13 +0000 (GMT)
Post by Theo
Post by Roland Perry
The cost of operating the trucks is mainly time and mileage (not a
relatively small access fee) and therefore they have that sort of thing
pretty well optimised already.
Pollution is an externality. There's not a lot of difference in road tax
between a Euro 1-5 truck and a Euro 6 truck. As a haulier, I can buy a 15
year old truck for a lot less than a new one, and the operating costs are
broadly the same (maybe the new one is more fuel efficient, but that's
probably less of a concern in London where distances aren't so large).
I realise trucks are built to last a lot longer than cars, but even so, surely
a 15 year old truck is going to be pretty heavy on maintenance costs?
David Cantrell
2019-02-18 12:17:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@sldeet5x4o.edu
I realise trucks are built to last a lot longer than cars, but even so, surely
a 15 year old truck is going to be pretty heavy on maintenance costs?
A car that is actually looked after doesn't have significantly higher
maintenance costs in year 15 than in year 5. I ASSume that the same
applies to larger vehicles. Whether the cost of that maintenance from
the beginning of its life is worthwhile is a different kettle of fish.
For all I know it might be cheaper to just run a lorry into the ground
every few years and buy new.
--
David Cantrell | Bourgeois reactionary pig

Do not be afraid of cooking, as your ingredients will know and misbehave
-- Fergus Henderson
b***@6yiy8ir3ddpceba8.org
2019-02-18 12:58:05 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 12:17:40 +0000
Post by b***@sldeet5x4o.edu
Post by b***@sldeet5x4o.edu
I realise trucks are built to last a lot longer than cars, but even so,
surely
Post by b***@sldeet5x4o.edu
a 15 year old truck is going to be pretty heavy on maintenance costs?
A car that is actually looked after doesn't have significantly higher
maintenance costs in year 15 than in year 5. I ASSume that the same
applies to larger vehicles. Whether the cost of that maintenance from
the beginning of its life is worthwhile is a different kettle of fish.
For all I know it might be cheaper to just run a lorry into the ground
every few years and buy new.
Some trucks go through quite a beating, especially tipper trucks. Even with
good maintenance you're going to get some sort of major failure at some point
just because of wear and tear on the materials they're made from.
Roland Perry
2019-02-14 13:29:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by Roland Perry
The cost of operating the trucks is mainly time and mileage (not a
relatively small access fee) and therefore they have that sort of thing
pretty well optimised already.
Pollution is an externality. There's not a lot of difference in road tax
between a Euro 1-5 truck and a Euro 6 truck. As a haulier,
I'm obviously a bit confused. Aren't you a computer scientist.
Post by Theo
I can buy a 15
year old truck for a lot less than a new one, and the operating costs are
broadly the same (maybe the new one is more fuel efficient, but that's
probably less of a concern in London where distances aren't so large).
If a haulier wants to 'do the right thing' by running newer trucks, the risk
is they're undercut by a competitor who doesn't.
By including the costs of pollution in the bottom line, it now makes an
economic incentive to invest in newer vehicles. And the playing field is
level because everyone is under the same pressure.
But my proposition is that a pollution charge isn't in fact high enough
for that to kick in.
Post by Theo
It might end up costing the consumer slightly more, which comes down to the
question: do you want to live in a polluted city or don't you?
(also not to forget the costs of pollution that taxpayers pay, eg in extra
healthcare, and the way that the effects of pollution may not be evenly
distributed across the population)
Theo
--
Roland Perry
Someone Somewhere
2019-02-19 08:02:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@7b3uq8l7zpwv0xf2z2m9o.org
On 12 Feb 2019 20:34:46 +0000 (GMT)
Post by Theo
Post by John Williamson
Post by b***@8ntap6et65uck_.net
I have wondered if all the transport companies should have got together
and refused to make deliveries if they have to pay the charge and see
what the little squirt does when the shelves empty in central london.
I drive a coach for a living, and I know that the industry has been
lobbying strongly, and has been totally ignored. I assume the haulage
industry has been doing the same.
The purpose of the plan is to reduce the polluting vehicles in central
London, which it's acknowledged cause too high levels of pollution.
Presumably, lorries and coaches are a big contributor?
So what are the industry proposals that would be a better way to achieve
pollution reductions?  What is the industry lobbying *for*, as
opposed to
lobbying *against*? (lobbying against taxes is no surprise)
If you dispute that lorries and coaches are major contributors, do you have
evidence for that?  If you dispute that pollution is too high,
evidence for
that?
 The bus and haulage industry don't build the vehicles. Stuff has to be
delivered somehow unless you want to go back to horse drawn carts and until
battery technology allows viable electric goods vehicles and buses** then its
going be diesel.
What about the efficiency of the deliveries?  How many vans etc are
driving around half empty?
Maybe some idea of huge depots on the M25 where things are delivered
to and then have some system of allocating particular areas to
particular delivery companies so they send in full vehicles that do as
little driving as possible?
Yes - it doesn't work for big goods and/or things that come on lorries
(although it does work for things that come on pallets) but it would
be a start.
A lot of the things being delivered in central London will be in
(wheeled) cages. It's a bit unusual to see a fork-lift truck unloading
palettes in WC1. The trick with cages is to load them into the van in
the correct order, so the ones you want first are by the doors at the back.
Distribution depots on/outside the M25 already do a pretty good job
sorting and consolidating deliveries. They don't send one truck of baked
beans around several destinations, followed by a truck of Cornflakes to
make numerous drop-offs. They'll load the truck with a mixture of Baked
Beans, Cornflakes etc and try to have the minimum number of drop-offs.
Nor did I say they did - I was excluding things that came on lorries as
I fully admit they are already better optimised - I'm talking about the
myriad of white vans.

What you're describing is the supermarket model which is as you say is
pretty well optimised, but that only forms a portion of the deliveries
in question.

If I order someething online can come from a variety of couriers, each
with their own vans and routes - if those routes could be made a quarter
as long by consolidation on the last mile then surely that can improve
things?

Someone Somewhere
2019-02-13 10:29:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@8ntap6et65uck_.net
On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 12:22:20 +0000
Post by John Williamson
Post by Robin9
I think it's certain that prices will go up. The Uber rep is obviously
concerned primarily about Uber drivers working in "the middle"
but there is also the issue of suburban PHV drivers who make only
one trip per day into central London.
If, for example, a driver takes an outer suburban customer to
Barts Hospital, that customer will be the only one that day
necessitating the driver to pay the surcharge. Presumably the
entire charge will be added to that passenger's fare. The customer
will not be pleased with Mr. Khan!
As far as Uber goes, that can be done automatically by the app,
hopefully with an explanation. Or Uber can arrange things so the driver
has a full day in the centre once he's cleared the Bart's job.
What's really going to piss them off is the new ULEZ that kicks in on
the date given, so anything earlier than Euro 6 will cost a fortune to
take in. It's also annoying transport companies, as using any lorry or
coach older than Euro 6 will cost £200 a day. The company I work for has
has to spend over two million quid to update our fleet to comply.
I have wondered if all the transport companies should have got together and
refused to make deliveries if they have to pay the charge and see what the
little squirt does when the shelves empty in central london.
I do wonder if this is a cunning plan by the aforementioned little
squirt to skew the figures so he can put out a more impressive
announcement.

The kind of thing I'm thinking of is that following the ULEZ there's
some press release that talks about an 8% reduction in traffic caused by
it along with the consequential improvement in air quality, but if you
dig into the figures it turns out 75% of the reduction is in private
hire vehicles changing their strategy to avoid the central area....
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