Discussion:
Electric Shapps
Add Reply
Recliner
2019-09-08 01:36:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-secretary-grant-shapps-on-why-he-bought-a-tesla-model-3-0tnhhks7j?shareToken=a70221daed84a5f553e362f97fc7a5a7>
tim...
2019-09-08 07:45:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-secretary-grant-shapps-on-why-he-bought-a-tesla-model-3-0tnhhks7j?shareToken=a70221daed84a5f553e362f97fc7a5a7>
so the reasons seem to be:

because he got government grant of 3,500 - for a near 50 grand car (after
options) is that really a deal maker?

So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that

not very compelling, is it?

especially as he admits himself that there are not enough public charge
points - there's not a single one within parking distance of my house

tim
Recliner
2019-09-08 08:22:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-secretary-grant-shapps-on-why-he-bought-a-tesla-model-3-0tnhhks7j?shareToken=a70221daed84a5f553e362f97fc7a5a7>
because he got government grant of 3,500 - for a near 50 grand car (after
options) is that really a deal maker?
It seems to be the biggest factor with BEVs and PHEVs: withdraw the
subsidy, and sales plummet. That's been demonstrated in both the UK and
many other countries. And when you consider that, even with the subsidy,
most BEVs are also loss-making for the manufacturer, it's clear that the
gap between what most people are willing to pay and what it costs to make
them is still large (though shrinking).
Post by tim...
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that
Perhaps not for long?
Post by tim...
not very compelling, is it?
It presumably is for a virtue-signalling politician.
Post by tim...
especially as he admits himself that there are not enough public charge
points - there's not a single one within parking distance of my house
Same here.
Roland Perry
2019-09-08 08:49:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that
Perhaps not for long?
Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-09-08 09:00:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that
Perhaps not for long?
Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.
Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.
They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.

I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.
Roland Perry
2019-09-08 10:05:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that
Perhaps not for long?
Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.
Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.
They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.
At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.
Post by Recliner
I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.
I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-09-08 10:28:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that
Perhaps not for long?
Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.
Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.
They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.
At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.
They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now. It's probably only a matter of time
before only ZEVs get into central London without some sort of charge, and
the dirtiest vehicles will be banned altogether. But TfL will first have to
get its own house in order, using only zero-emissions buses in central
London.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.
I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.
I don't think the GLA has any authority beyond the London boroughs.
Roland Perry
2019-09-08 11:23:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that
Perhaps not for long?
Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.
Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.
They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.
At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.
They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now.
I didn't mention banned. The context of the newspaper article was the
daily cost.
Post by Recliner
It's probably only a matter of time before only ZEVs get into central
London without some sort of charge, and the dirtiest vehicles will be
banned altogether.
Yes, to the "charge", but maybe not in the life of the secondhand car
the Minister could have bought to get into the zone free of charge
today.
Post by Recliner
But TfL will first have to get its own house in order, using only
zero-emissions buses in central London.
It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.
I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.
I don't think the GLA has any authority beyond the London boroughs.
Sometimes people use "M25" as a proxy for "GLA area", even though they
don't co-ibcide.

When this group was set up there was a *lot* of discussion of what
"London" meant for the purposes of the charter!
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-09-08 11:42:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that
Perhaps not for long?
Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.
Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.
They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.
At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.
They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now.
I didn't mention banned. The context of the newspaper article was the
daily cost.
Post by Recliner
It's probably only a matter of time before only ZEVs get into central
London without some sort of charge, and the dirtiest vehicles will be
banned altogether.
Yes, to the "charge", but maybe not in the life of the secondhand car
the Minister could have bought to get into the zone free of charge
today.
True, but he was virtue-signalling. I also wonder how many other
conventional cars his family runs?
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
But TfL will first have to get its own house in order, using only
zero-emissions buses in central London.
It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.
I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?

London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).
Roland Perry
2019-09-08 12:06:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.
I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?
The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than a
traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include any
bus routes.
Post by Recliner
London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).
Where do you put the transfer bus stations.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-09-08 13:13:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.
I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?
The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than a
traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include any
bus routes.
So no problem?
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).
Where do you put the transfer bus stations.
Sounds like it's a non-issue?
Roland Perry
2019-09-08 15:00:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.
I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?
The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than a
traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include any
bus routes.
So no problem?
Not in the sense that it could be embarrassingly deficient in the
absence of ZEV buses.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).
Where do you put the transfer bus stations.
Sounds like it's a non-issue?
Other than either the immense cost of ZEV buses to populate inside the
N/S Circular (or wherever the boundary was that week) and transfer
stations to the less environmental buses for people with the temerity to
want to go from inside to outside the zone.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-09-08 15:34:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.
I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?
The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than a
traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include any
bus routes.
So no problem?
Not in the sense that it could be embarrassingly deficient in the
absence of ZEV buses.
In the tiny Oxford ZEV zone?
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).
Where do you put the transfer bus stations.
Sounds like it's a non-issue?
Other than either the immense cost of ZEV buses to populate inside the
N/S Circular (or wherever the boundary was that week) and transfer
stations to the less environmental buses for people with the temerity to
want to go from inside to outside the zone.
We were discussing Oxford, not London.
Roland Perry
2019-09-08 16:12:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.
I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?
The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than a
traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include any
bus routes.
So no problem?
Not in the sense that it could be embarrassingly deficient in the
absence of ZEV buses.
In the tiny Oxford ZEV zone?
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre,
******
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).
Where do you put the transfer bus stations.
Sounds like it's a non-issue?
Other than either the immense cost of ZEV buses to populate inside the
N/S Circular (or wherever the boundary was that week) and transfer
stations to the less environmental buses for people with the temerity to
want to go from inside to outside the zone.
We were discussing Oxford, not London.
See ******
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-09-08 19:14:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.
I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?
The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than a
traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include any
bus routes.
So no problem?
Not in the sense that it could be embarrassingly deficient in the
absence of ZEV buses.
In the tiny Oxford ZEV zone?
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre,
******
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).
Where do you put the transfer bus stations.
Sounds like it's a non-issue?
Other than either the immense cost of ZEV buses to populate inside the
N/S Circular (or wherever the boundary was that week) and transfer
stations to the less environmental buses for people with the temerity to
want to go from inside to outside the zone.
We were discussing Oxford, not London.
See ******
And there you go again, cropping out the relevant part of the conversation:
Roland Perry
2019-09-08 19:49:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.
I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?
The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than a
traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include any
bus routes.
So no problem?
Not in the sense that it could be embarrassingly deficient in the
absence of ZEV buses.
In the tiny Oxford ZEV zone?
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre,
******
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).
Where do you put the transfer bus stations.
Sounds like it's a non-issue?
Other than either the immense cost of ZEV buses to populate inside the
N/S Circular (or wherever the boundary was that week) and transfer
stations to the less environmental buses for people with the temerity to
want to go from inside to outside the zone.
We were discussing Oxford, not London.
See ******
I deliberately cropped nothing.

The London-**** is more than halfway down, too. (So trimming down to
there was tempting).
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2019-09-08 13:15:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.
I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone,
connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?
The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than a
traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include any
bus routes.
Doesn't Oxford have a pedestrianised centre that is accessible by bus?
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).
Where do you put the transfer bus stations.
If they are hybrids you don't have to have transfer stations.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2019-09-08 15:03:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.
I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone,
connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?
The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than
a traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include
any bus routes.
Doesn't Oxford have a pedestrianised centre that is accessible by bus?
You can get to the edge of it, but it's small enough that you can walk
the rest of the way. Not quite the same as even the Congestion Charge
Zone (if only ZEVs are allowed inside).
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).
Where do you put the transfer bus stations.
If they are hybrids you don't have to have transfer stations.
Only if they can cover the whole of inside the N/S Circular on battery,
once the zone has extended that far.
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2019-09-08 15:23:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.
I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?
 The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than
a  traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't
include any  bus routes.
Doesn't Oxford have a pedestrianised centre that is accessible by bus?
You can get to the edge of it, but it's small enough that you can walk
the rest of the way. Not quite the same as even the Congestion Charge
Zone (if only ZEVs are allowed inside).
Wasn't there a fuss some years back because a car tried to follow a bus
into the pedestrian area and got thrown aside by the rising pillar and
nearly hit a pedestrian nearby?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2019-09-08 16:11:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Doesn't Oxford have a pedestrianised centre that is accessible by bus?
You can get to the edge of it, but it's small enough that you can
walk the rest of the way. Not quite the same as even the Congestion
Charge Zone (if only ZEVs are allowed inside).
Wasn't there a fuss some years back because a car tried to follow a bus
into the pedestrian area and got thrown aside by the rising pillar and
nearly hit a pedestrian nearby?
Not that I recall. But other cities have.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-09-08 15:33:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
It'll be interesting to see how Oxford's ZEV zone gets on. There's bound
to be exceptions (ever seen a ZEV Fire Engine?) the question will be how
far the exceptions will extend. Especially buses, where a ZEV fleet
might be prohibitively expensive.
I don't know much about Oxford's bus routes, but would it be possible to
have a ZEV fleet operating in and just outside the ZEV zone, connecting to
conventional hybrid buses operating from the edge of the zone?
The proposed ZEV zone is actually quite small. Not a lot bigger than
a traditional pedestrianised town centre. It probably doesn't include
any bus routes.
Doesn't Oxford have a pedestrianised centre that is accessible by bus?
You can get to the edge of it, but it's small enough that you can walk
the rest of the way. Not quite the same as even the Congestion Charge
Zone (if only ZEVs are allowed inside).
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
London already has ZEV buses that only operate in the centre, and I suppose
there could be a new fleet of PHEV buses with a limited ZEV range that's
enough to cover a central ZEV zone (rather like the new taxis).
Where do you put the transfer bus stations.
If they are hybrids you don't have to have transfer stations.
Only if they can cover the whole of inside the N/S Circular on battery,
once the zone has extended that far.
The ZEV zone will be far smaller than that, at least for the foreseeable
future.
tim...
2019-09-08 17:57:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
When this group was set up there was a *lot* of discussion of what
"London" meant for the purposes of the charter!
surely it's the area where busses operated by what (I presume) was called
London Transport at the time, go to

even when they go outside the M25 (such as 81 to Slough)
Roland Perry
2019-09-08 18:04:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
When this group was set up there was a *lot* of discussion of what
"London" meant for the purposes of the charter!
surely it's the area where busses operated by what (I presume) was
called London Transport at the time, go to
even when they go outside the M25 (such as 81 to Slough)
Let's not re-run that debate.
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2019-09-08 17:53:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that
Perhaps not for long?
Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.
Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.
They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.
At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.
They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now. It's probably only a matter of time
before only ZEVs get into central London without some sort of charge, and
the dirtiest vehicles will be banned altogether. But TfL will first have to
get its own house in order, using only zero-emissions buses in central
London.
Oh Only Rich people allowed to drive then

That'll work well as a tabloid headline


tim
Recliner
2019-09-08 19:20:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that
Perhaps not for long?
Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.
Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.
They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.
At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.
They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now. It's probably only a matter of time
before only ZEVs get into central London without some sort of charge, and
the dirtiest vehicles will be banned altogether. But TfL will first have
to get its own house in order, using only zero-emissions buses in central
London.
Oh Only Rich people allowed to drive then
That'll work well as a tabloid headline
Have you only just noticed?

The original Congestion Charge (™ Red Ken) was a bonus for plutocrats,
clearing the streets of most of the pesky scruffy, cheap cars driven by
poorer commuters. And Sadiq's ULEZ is another bonus for people with nice
modern cars, clearing the streets of the smoky diesels and old petrol
wrecks. So, yes, Labour mayors go out of the way to banish cheaper, older
cars from London's congested streets, leaving them clear for well-heeled
commuters in shiny new cars.
tim...
2019-09-09 11:21:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that
Perhaps not for long?
Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.
Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.
They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.
At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.
They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now. It's probably only a matter of time
before only ZEVs get into central London without some sort of charge, and
the dirtiest vehicles will be banned altogether. But TfL will first have
to get its own house in order, using only zero-emissions buses in central
London.
Oh Only Rich people allowed to drive then
That'll work well as a tabloid headline
Have you only just noticed?
nope,

but the solution "Trade in for a second hand petrol costing 4 grand" is not
entirely unreasonable [1], especially as there's still an alternative of
paying the charge on a day to day basis.

whereas

"Trade in for a (nearly new) electric at 30 grand" is, when the alternate is
not being able to drive in the zone at all [2]

ISTM the two states are miles apart.

tim


[1] I even postulated it myself

[2] Obviously if "the zone" is just the area inside the circle line then
that not too bad. But if, as you seem to be suggesting, it's inside the N/S
Circular then it most certainly is
Recliner
2019-09-09 11:52:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that
Perhaps not for long?
Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.
Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.
They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.
At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.
They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now. It's probably only a matter of time
before only ZEVs get into central London without some sort of charge, and
the dirtiest vehicles will be banned altogether. But TfL will first have
to get its own house in order, using only zero-emissions buses in central
London.
Oh Only Rich people allowed to drive then
That'll work well as a tabloid headline
Have you only just noticed?
nope,
but the solution "Trade in for a second hand petrol costing 4 grand" is not
entirely unreasonable [1], especially as there's still an alternative of
paying the charge on a day to day basis.
whereas
"Trade in for a (nearly new) electric at 30 grand" is, when the alternate is
not being able to drive in the zone at all [2]
ISTM the two states are miles apart.
tim
[1] I even postulated it myself
[2] Obviously if "the zone" is just the area inside the circle line then
that not too bad. But if, as you seem to be suggesting, it's inside the N/S
Circular then it most certainly is
Just to make clear, I'm not aware of any current plans to ban higher
emissions cars from the central area, but I do believe that fewer vehicles
will be exempt from the T charge as time progresses, just as fewer are
exempt from the C charge than used to be. In time, only ZEVs may be exempt
from charges in the centre of London. Eventually, only ZEVs may be allowed
into that area, but that is years away, and depends on lots more BEVs and
PHEVs being on the road.
Graeme Wall
2019-09-08 10:58:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that
Perhaps not for long?
Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.
Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.
They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.
At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.
Post by Recliner
I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.
I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.
There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities inside
the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2019-09-08 11:29:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that
Perhaps not for long?
Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.
Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.
They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.
At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.
Post by Recliner
I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.
I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.
There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities inside
the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.
There's resistance from a lot of people! (See also colloquial conflation
of GLA/M25).
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2019-09-08 12:00:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that
Perhaps not for long?
Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.
Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.
They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.
 At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.
Post by Recliner
I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.
 I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.
There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities inside
the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.
There's resistance from a lot of people! (See also colloquial conflation
of GLA/M25).
The difference being that the Mayor's writ does not extend as far as
peoples perceptions of London.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2019-09-08 12:09:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
 I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.
There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities
inside the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.
There's resistance from a lot of people! (See also colloquial
conflation of GLA/M25).
The difference being that the Mayor's writ does not extend as far as
peoples perceptions of London.
Those perceptions including "The GLA", "Inside the M25", "Patrolled by
the Met Police", "with 070 phone numbers", "served by TfL bus routes"
and no doubt other metrics as well.

So it's a bit fuzzy round the edge, but "M25" is a reasonable and
commonly used approximation.
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2019-09-08 13:16:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
 I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.
There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities
inside  the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.
 There's resistance from a lot of people! (See also colloquial
conflation  of GLA/M25).
The difference being that the Mayor's writ does not extend as far as
peoples perceptions of London.
Those perceptions including "The GLA", "Inside the M25", "Patrolled by
the Met Police", "with 070 phone numbers", "served by TfL bus routes"
and no doubt other metrics as well.
You left out served by tube trains :-)
Post by Roland Perry
So it's a bit fuzzy round the edge, but "M25" is a reasonable and
commonly used approximation.
But still one that people inside but not in London have strong feelings
about.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2019-09-08 15:04:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
 I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.
There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities
inside  the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.
 There's resistance from a lot of people! (See also colloquial
conflation  of GLA/M25).
The difference being that the Mayor's writ does not extend as far as
peoples perceptions of London.
Those perceptions including "The GLA", "Inside the M25", "Patrolled
by the Met Police", "with 070 phone numbers", "served by TfL bus
routes" and no doubt other metrics as well.
You left out served by tube trains :-)
Post by Roland Perry
So it's a bit fuzzy round the edge, but "M25" is a reasonable and
commonly used approximation.
But still one that people inside but not in London have strong feelings
about.
The strong feelings I've read about are people near the M25, but in GLA,
who think ZEV shouldn't go that far out.
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2019-09-08 15:25:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
 I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.
There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities
inside  the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.
 >
Post by Graeme Wall
 There's resistance from a lot of people! (See also colloquial
conflation  of GLA/M25).
The difference being that the Mayor's writ does not extend as far as
peoples perceptions of London.
 Those perceptions including "The GLA", "Inside the M25", "Patrolled
by  the Met Police", "with 070 phone numbers", "served by TfL bus
routes"  and no doubt other metrics as well.
You left out served by tube trains :-)
 So it's a bit fuzzy round the edge, but "M25" is a reasonable and
commonly used approximation.
But still one that people inside but not in London have strong
feelings about.
The strong feelings I've read about are people near the M25, but in GLA,
who think ZEV shouldn't go that far out.
I was thinking of those who object to being regarded as part London in
any circumstances, not just the Total Exclusion Zone.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Recliner
2019-09-08 15:33:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
 I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.
There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities
inside  the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.
 There's resistance from a lot of people! (See also colloquial
conflation  of GLA/M25).
The difference being that the Mayor's writ does not extend as far as
peoples perceptions of London.
Those perceptions including "The GLA", "Inside the M25", "Patrolled
by the Met Police", "with 070 phone numbers", "served by TfL bus
routes" and no doubt other metrics as well.
You left out served by tube trains :-)
Post by Roland Perry
So it's a bit fuzzy round the edge, but "M25" is a reasonable and
commonly used approximation.
But still one that people inside but not in London have strong feelings
about.
The strong feelings I've read about are people near the M25, but in GLA,
who think ZEV shouldn't go that far out.
The ZEV zone would be much smaller, no more than the Congestion zone (ie,
less than Zone 1). The LEV zone is much larger.
tim...
2019-09-08 18:06:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.
There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities inside
the M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.
There's resistance from a lot of people! (See also colloquial
conflation of GLA/M25).
The difference being that the Mayor's writ does not extend as far as
peoples perceptions of London.
Those perceptions including "The GLA", "Inside the M25", "Patrolled by the
Met Police",
now coincides with the GLA

agreed it didn't 30 years (or whatever) ago

tim
tim...
2019-09-08 18:04:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that
Perhaps not for long?
Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.
Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.
They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got steadily
tighter.
At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.
Post by Recliner
I think there's also a desire to widen the coverage area (beyond the
Circulars), but not fr a while.
I had an idea they were already considering as far as the M25.
There's a certain amount of resistance to that from communities inside the
M25 that do not consider themselves part of London.
As I'm sure that there is from communities that do consider themselves part
of London who don't have the same bus-every-5-minutes frequency to a tube
station that the Central area does

I bet the residents of Biggin Hill won't be impressed with being told they
have to pay 20 quid to drive to their local supermarket
tim...
2019-09-08 17:52:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-secretary-grant-shapps-on-why-he-bought-a-tesla-model-3-0tnhhks7j?shareToken=a70221daed84a5f553e362f97fc7a5a7>
because he got government grant of 3,500 - for a near 50 grand car (after
options) is that really a deal maker?
It seems to be the biggest factor with BEVs and PHEVs: withdraw the
subsidy, and sales plummet. That's been demonstrated in both the UK and
many other countries. And when you consider that, even with the subsidy,
most BEVs are also loss-making for the manufacturer, it's clear that the
gap between what most people are willing to pay and what it costs to make
them is still large (though shrinking).
Post by tim...
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your average
second hand petrol model achieves that
Perhaps not for long?
in what way
Roland Perry
2019-09-08 08:32:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-secretary-grant-shapps-on-why-he-bought-a-tesla-model-3-0tnhhks7j?shareToken=a70221daed84a5f553
e362f97fc7a5a7>
because he got government grant of 3,500 - for a near 50 grand car
(after options) is that really a deal maker?
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your
average second hand petrol model achieves that
not very compelling, is it?
The various greenwash suspicions are interestingly at odds with a much
earlier decision not to buy Priuses(sp) as ministerial cars, because
their overall footprint wasn't regarded as sufficiently compelling.
Post by tim...
especially as he admits himself that there are not enough public charge
points - there's not a single one within parking distance of my house
The nearest two Tesla chargers to my house are both 15 minutes drive,
and at hotel/B&B type locations. Are those truly "public"?

I'm surprised to see there's a "Pod point" [whatever that is] charger at
the Sainsbury's, because I've never noticed it. I'll go take a proper
look tomorrow.
--
Roland Perry
David Cantrell
2019-09-09 08:42:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
The nearest two Tesla chargers to my house are both 15 minutes drive,
and at hotel/B&B type locations. Are those truly "public"?
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in. Those "public" charging stations are on
the premises of a hotel, in a car park with prominent signs saying that
it is for paying guests only, and on the forecourt of a Hyundai dealer,
so I *ass*ume that other manufacturers' vehicles aren't welcome.
--
David Cantrell | Pope | First Church of the Symmetrical Internet

Anyone willing to give up a little fun for tolerance deserves neither
David Walters
2019-09-09 10:41:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Cantrell
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.
Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.
Recliner
2019-09-09 11:16:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Walters
Post by David Cantrell
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.
Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.
That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas for
which BEVs are best suited.
David Walters
2019-09-09 13:58:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by David Walters
Post by David Cantrell
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.
Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.
That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas for
which BEVs are best suited.
In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had
other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have
a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even
if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we
can loose a lot before we drop 16%.

Examples of towns with a population of 40,000, as cited by David Cantrell,
include Bishop's Stortford[2]. A very unscientific look at the aerial
images of the town suggests to me that more than half the homes have
off street parking.

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

[1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/6748/2173483.pdf

[2] Closest to 40k in https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-cities-population-1000/
Roland Perry
2019-09-09 14:16:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Walters
Post by Recliner
Post by David Walters
Post by David Cantrell
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.
Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.
That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas for
which BEVs are best suited.
In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had
other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have
a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even
if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we
can loose a lot before we drop 16%.
Then there's the houses with more than one car, and with garages which
are either too small to put a modern car into, or are being used as
lock-ups instead.

Modern estate houses (typically link-detached) built in the last 20yrs
will also tend not to have a usable space in front of the garage,
courtesy of planners who wrongly believe that restricting parking to one
per house will restrict the number of cars people have.

It's also the case that most blocks of garages (another feature of
estates) are no supplied with power, and are sufficiently far from the
associated houses that you couldn't even run an extension lead safely.

You could add to that the many garages at the bottoms of people's
gardens, where power could be run, but at some considerable expense.
--
Roland Perry
MissRiaElaine
2019-09-09 21:40:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Walters
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.
So what do the other half do..? We live in a flat with only on-street
parking available. To rip up the streets to install kerbside charging
points would not be cost effective - the existing cabling would not
stand the load on the system of everyone in the street with a car all
coming home from work at 6pm and plugging in.

I've said it before, the way forward is hydrogen. It takes no longer to
fill up than a petrol car and although it may not be as economical, it
would be far easier to install pumps at existing petrol stations than
charging points everywhere.
--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]
Recliner
2019-09-09 22:43:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by David Walters
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.
So what do the other half do..? We live in a flat with only on-street
parking available. To rip up the streets to install kerbside charging
points would not be cost effective - the existing cabling would not
stand the load on the system of everyone in the street with a car all
coming home from work at 6pm and plugging in.
I've said it before, the way forward is hydrogen. It takes no longer to
fill up than a petrol car and although it may not be as economical, it
would be far easier to install pumps at existing petrol stations than
charging points everywhere.
Certainly, hydrogen is better at the consumer level: the cars are lighter,
quicker to fill, and have more range. They also don't need so much exotic
materials as batteries do.

But the industry would need to crack the problem of producing and
distributing clean hydrogen, probably from solar or wind power, on an
industrial scale, at an affordable price. I really hope that happens, but
it's obviously not imminent. So, in the mean time, low emissions cars will
have to use batteries.

When hydrogen does become viable, it'll probably come first to heavy, long
distance vehicles, like trains, tracks and high performance highway cars.
Short range city cars will probably stick with batteries, but they'll get a
lot quicker to charge than current ones.
MissRiaElaine
2019-09-10 11:18:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Certainly, hydrogen is better at the consumer level: the cars are lighter,
quicker to fill, and have more range. They also don't need so much exotic
materials as batteries do.
But the industry would need to crack the problem of producing and
distributing clean hydrogen, probably from solar or wind power, on an
industrial scale, at an affordable price. I really hope that happens, but
it's obviously not imminent. So, in the mean time, low emissions cars will
have to use batteries.
When hydrogen does become viable, it'll probably come first to heavy, long
distance vehicles, like trains, tracks and high performance highway cars.
Short range city cars will probably stick with batteries, but they'll get a
lot quicker to charge than current ones.
Here in Aberdeen, we have a local car club, where people can hire cars
for short periods from an hour upwards. There are all types, from
standard petrol cars to diesel vans and electric cars such as the
Renault Zoe. There are also a few hydrogen cars, initially the LHD-only
Hyundai ix35 (which was lovely to drive) and also now some Mitsubishi
Mirai cars, which are amazing.

Fuelling and range are problems, but there is a fleet of hydrogen buses
here in the city, so the cars can use that, and there is also another
car-only fuelling station. Range is the main problem though, it's just
possible to get to Edinburgh and back on a tank-full, but I wouldn't
want to push it..! The next station south is Sheffield, so you see the
problem..!

It's quite possible to generate hydrogen locally at the filling station,
there is at least one such installation in London that I'm aware of,
although I don't recall the exact location. Solar power is ideal; there
are numerous wind turbines in this area, when not required for the grid,
they could be used to generate hydrogen. Distribution shouldn't be that
much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of petrol tankers, they
would just need adapting.
--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]
Roland Perry
2019-09-10 11:30:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Recliner
Certainly, hydrogen is better at the consumer level: the cars are lighter,
quicker to fill, and have more range. They also don't need so much exotic
materials as batteries do.
But the industry would need to crack the problem of producing and
distributing clean hydrogen, probably from solar or wind power, on an
industrial scale, at an affordable price. I really hope that happens, but
it's obviously not imminent. So, in the mean time, low emissions cars will
have to use batteries.
When hydrogen does become viable, it'll probably come first to heavy, long
distance vehicles, like trains, tracks and high performance highway cars.
Short range city cars will probably stick with batteries, but they'll get a
lot quicker to charge than current ones.
Here in Aberdeen, we have a local car club, where people can hire cars
for short periods from an hour upwards. There are all types, from
standard petrol cars to diesel vans and electric cars such as the
Renault Zoe. There are also a few hydrogen cars, initially the LHD-only
Hyundai ix35 (which was lovely to drive) and also now some Mitsubishi
Mirai cars, which are amazing.
Fuelling and range are problems, but there is a fleet of hydrogen buses
here in the city, so the cars can use that, and there is also another
car-only fuelling station. Range is the main problem though, it's just
possible to get to Edinburgh and back on a tank-full, but I wouldn't
want to push it..! The next station south is Sheffield, so you see the
problem..!
It's quite possible to generate hydrogen locally at the filling
station, there is at least one such installation in London that I'm
aware of, although I don't recall the exact location. Solar power is
ideal; there are numerous wind turbines in this area, when not required
for the grid, they could be used to generate hydrogen. Distribution
shouldn't be that much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of
petrol tankers, they would just need adapting.
It was going so well until that last sentence!
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-09-10 12:04:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 12:18:46 +0100, MissRiaElaine
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Recliner
Certainly, hydrogen is better at the consumer level: the cars are lighter,
quicker to fill, and have more range. They also don't need so much exotic
materials as batteries do.
But the industry would need to crack the problem of producing and
distributing clean hydrogen, probably from solar or wind power, on an
industrial scale, at an affordable price. I really hope that happens, but
it's obviously not imminent. So, in the mean time, low emissions cars will
have to use batteries.
When hydrogen does become viable, it'll probably come first to heavy, long
distance vehicles, like trains, tracks and high performance highway cars.
Short range city cars will probably stick with batteries, but they'll get a
lot quicker to charge than current ones.
Here in Aberdeen, we have a local car club, where people can hire cars
for short periods from an hour upwards. There are all types, from
standard petrol cars to diesel vans and electric cars such as the
Renault Zoe. There are also a few hydrogen cars, initially the LHD-only
Hyundai ix35 (which was lovely to drive) and also now some Mitsubishi
Mirai cars, which are amazing.
Fuelling and range are problems, but there is a fleet of hydrogen buses
here in the city, so the cars can use that, and there is also another
car-only fuelling station. Range is the main problem though, it's just
possible to get to Edinburgh and back on a tank-full, but I wouldn't
want to push it..! The next station south is Sheffield, so you see the
problem..!
It's quite possible to generate hydrogen locally at the filling station,
there is at least one such installation in London that I'm aware of,
although I don't recall the exact location. Solar power is ideal; there
are numerous wind turbines in this area, when not required for the grid,
they could be used to generate hydrogen.
There are small surpluses of wind power from time to time, and
generating hydrogen is indeed a very good way to use that power. But
there's not enough for a mass switch to hydrogen power. I think some
Scottish islands export hydrogen produced from their surplus wind
power.
Post by MissRiaElaine
Distribution shouldn't be that
much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of petrol tankers, they
would just need adapting.
The tankers would need replacing, not adapting. Hydrogen needs new
high pressure tanks and all-new piping.
MissRiaElaine
2019-09-10 13:15:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 12:18:46 +0100, MissRiaElaine
Post by MissRiaElaine
Distribution shouldn't be that
much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of petrol tankers, they
would just need adapting.
The tankers would need replacing, not adapting. Hydrogen needs new
high pressure tanks and all-new piping.
Fair enough. But it's possible.
--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]
Roland Perry
2019-09-10 13:26:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Recliner
Post by MissRiaElaine
Distribution shouldn't be that
much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of petrol tankers, they
would just need adapting.
The tankers would need replacing, not adapting. Hydrogen needs new
high pressure tanks and all-new piping.
Fair enough. But it's possible.
To replace them, if cost was no object, yes.
--
Roland Perry
MissRiaElaine
2019-09-10 13:41:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by MissRiaElaine
Distribution shouldn't be that
much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of petrol tankers, they
would just need adapting.
 The tankers would need replacing, not adapting. Hydrogen needs new
high pressure tanks and all-new piping.
Fair enough. But it's possible.
To replace them, if cost was no object, yes.
And how much will it cost to rip up every street in the country to lay
new cables to handle the power required when *everybody* has an electric
car that needs charging..? Not to mention the extra generating plant.
One estimate I saw somewhere said that the UK would require the
equivalent of 20 extra nuclear power stations.
--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]
Roland Perry
2019-09-10 14:26:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Roland Perry
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by MissRiaElaine
Distribution shouldn't be that
much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of petrol
tankers, they
would just need adapting.
 The tankers would need replacing, not adapting. Hydrogen needs new
high pressure tanks and all-new piping.
Fair enough. But it's possible.
To replace them, if cost was no object, yes.
And how much will it cost to rip up every street in the country to lay
new cables to handle the power required when *everybody* has an
electric car that needs charging..?
A fortune. And it's required if the penetration of electric cars exceeds
about 10% by 2030 (it will vary locally depending on what cabling
currently exists, how old it is etc etc).

Note that as a rule of thumb one car in a household will on average
double its overall electricity consumption. And it's no good suggesting
peak/offpeak because there's not much difference at the supply end these
days, and if all the houses use off-peak charging, that'll roughly
treble the load on *their* infrastructure, not merely double it.
Post by MissRiaElaine
Not to mention the extra generating plant. One estimate I saw somewhere
said that the UK would require the equivalent of 20 extra nuclear power
stations.
And a whole new set of substations.

ps I don't think hydrogen is the answer either!
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2019-09-10 13:59:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Recliner
Post by MissRiaElaine
Distribution shouldn't be that
much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of petrol tankers, they
would just need adapting.
The tankers would need replacing, not adapting. Hydrogen needs new
high pressure tanks and all-new piping.
Fair enough. But it's possible.
To replace them, if cost was no object, yes.
Oh come on

Lorries have a relative short lifetime

there won't be an overnight switch of fuel, so the transport vehicles can be
replaced by natural wastage

(FTAOD I'm not making any other positive contribution to this debate by
posting this message)

tim
tim...
2019-09-10 12:19:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Certainly, hydrogen is better at the consumer level: the cars are lighter,
quicker to fill, and have more range. They also don't need so much exotic
materials as batteries do.
But the industry would need to crack the problem of producing and
distributing clean hydrogen, probably from solar or wind power, on an
industrial scale, at an affordable price. I really hope that happens, but
it's obviously not imminent. So, in the mean time, low emissions cars will
have to use batteries.
When hydrogen does become viable, it'll probably come first to heavy, long
distance vehicles, like trains, tracks and high performance highway cars.
Short range city cars will probably stick with batteries, but they'll get a
lot quicker to charge than current ones.
Here in Aberdeen, we have a local car club, where people can hire cars for
short periods from an hour upwards.
so do we

they work well if you want a car for a few hours (provided that you use
them often enough to justify the membership fee)

not quite so well for you fortnights holiday
Roland Perry
2019-09-10 13:02:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by MissRiaElaine
Here in Aberdeen, we have a local car club, where people can hire
cars for short periods from an hour upwards.
so do we
they work well if you want a car for a few hours (provided that you
use them often enough to justify the membership fee)
And as long as you want it for something fairly neat and tidy - not for
example picking up a bale of hay for the pet rabbits from the garden
centre.

I wonder, do they allow pets at all (a lot of hire cars don't).
Post by tim...
not quite so well for you fortnights holiday
Nor (to bring in a railway theme) if the objective is to pick someone up
from the station, and the train turns out to be three hours late.
--
Roland Perry
Marland
2019-09-10 14:34:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
It's quite possible to generate hydrogen locally at the filling station,
there is at least one such installation in London that I'm aware of,
although I don't recall the exact location. Solar power is ideal; there
are numerous wind turbines in this area, when not required for the grid,
they could be used to generate hydrogen.
Distribution shouldn't be that
Post by MissRiaElaine
much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of petrol tankers, they
would just need adapting.
Those last few words must be understatement the week, existing liquid fuel
tankers are just compartmentalised tanks with a reasonable amount of
airtightness to stop fuel and vapour slopping out.
A Hydrogen tanker would have to be a pressure vessel and depending if the
requirement is to carry it in liquid or compressed gas form may need
cooling or be heavily insulated as well.

It would be like trying to convert a saucepan into a pressure cooker,so
much hassle it would be better to build new.

GH
David Cantrell
2019-09-10 09:54:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by David Walters
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.
So what do the other half do..? We live in a flat with only on-street
parking available. To rip up the streets to install kerbside charging
points would not be cost effective - the existing cabling would not
stand the load on the system of everyone in the street with a car all
coming home from work at 6pm and plugging in.
The existing electrical distribution system (it's more than just the
cables) wouldn't stand up to a street full of chargers on private land
either.
Post by MissRiaElaine
I've said it before, the way forward is hydrogen. It takes no longer to
fill up than a petrol car and although it may not be as economical, it
would be far easier to install pumps at existing petrol stations than
charging points everywhere.
Hydrogen is an absolute bugger to store and transport and has some
rather serious safety issues. It also has a lot lower lower energy
density than petrol or diesel.
--
David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist

Erudite is when you make a classical allusion to a
feather. Kinky is when you use the whole chicken.
Recliner
2019-09-10 12:07:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:54:53 +0100, David Cantrell
Post by David Cantrell
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by David Walters
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.
So what do the other half do..? We live in a flat with only on-street
parking available. To rip up the streets to install kerbside charging
points would not be cost effective - the existing cabling would not
stand the load on the system of everyone in the street with a car all
coming home from work at 6pm and plugging in.
The existing electrical distribution system (it's more than just the
cables) wouldn't stand up to a street full of chargers on private land
either.
True
Post by David Cantrell
Post by MissRiaElaine
I've said it before, the way forward is hydrogen. It takes no longer to
fill up than a petrol car and although it may not be as economical, it
would be far easier to install pumps at existing petrol stations than
charging points everywhere.
Hydrogen is an absolute bugger to store and transport and has some
rather serious safety issues. It also has a lot lower lower energy
density than petrol or diesel.
Yes, most alternate fuels do, including batteries.

The ideal solution would be some new synthetic liquid fuel, with a
similar energy density to petrol, that could be produced and burnt
cleanly. I'm sure a lot of labs are researching such fuels, but they
won't be along for quite a while.
David Walters
2019-09-10 12:51:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by David Walters
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.
So what do the other half do..?
Something else. There doesn't need to be one solution for everyone.
MissRiaElaine
2019-09-10 13:18:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Walters
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by David Walters
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.
So what do the other half do..?
Something else. There doesn't need to be one solution for everyone.
So give me an alternative. I've already suggested hydrogen, but that
seems to have been generally pooh-poohed. According to our wonderful (!)
government, battery-electric is the best thing since sliced bread.
--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]
tim...
2019-09-10 13:51:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 22:40:06 +0100, MissRiaElaine
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by David Walters
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.
So what do the other half do..?
Something else. There doesn't need to be one solution for everyone.
So give me an alternative. I've already suggested hydrogen, but that seems
to have been generally pooh-poohed. According to our wonderful (!)
government, battery-electric is the best thing since sliced bread.
That's because they've invented a world where electric car technology
follows the Laffer curve

Which it doesn't

In 5-10 years they will realise that.

tim
tim...
2019-09-10 13:48:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 22:40:06 +0100, MissRiaElaine
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by David Walters
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.
So what do the other half do..?
Something else. There doesn't need to be one solution for everyone.
but the solution isn't in the hands of individual - I can't just decide to
have a charge point connected to the local street lamppost

HMG has to facilitate it (even if they don't directly provide it)
Roland Perry
2019-09-10 14:29:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by David Walters
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by David Walters
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.
So what do the other half do..?
Something else. There doesn't need to be one solution for everyone.
but the solution isn't in the hands of individual - I can't just decide
to have a charge point connected to the local street lamppost
No-one can because the street lights are on circuits not much bigger
than a 13A ring main, Separate from the supply to premises. Unless the
premises supply is on overhead wires (typically rural areas), when
there's a whole other set of constraints in the overall amperage.
Post by tim...
HMG has to facilitate it (even if they don't directly provide it)
County Councils provide the street lighting.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-09-10 16:14:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by David Walters
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by David Walters
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.
So what do the other half do..?
Something else. There doesn't need to be one solution for everyone.
but the solution isn't in the hands of individual - I can't just decide
to have a charge point connected to the local street lamppost
No-one can because the street lights are on circuits not much bigger
than a 13A ring main, Separate from the supply to premises. Unless the
premises supply is on overhead wires (typically rural areas), when
there's a whole other set of constraints in the overall amperage.
Post by tim...
HMG has to facilitate it (even if they don't directly provide it)
County Councils provide the street lighting.
The future for other than residential trickle charging top-ups is likely to
be fast chargers at filling stations. They will, of course, need a high
power grid connection, but that's simpler than rewiring the entire local
electricity supply grid, or setting up a whole hydrogen supply chain.

The new Taycan (and, no, Roland, it's not aimed at you) represents the
current state of the art:
<https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/products/taycan/charging-18558.html>
Recliner
2019-09-09 23:32:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Walters
Post by Recliner
Post by David Walters
Post by David Cantrell
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.
Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.
That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas for
which BEVs are best suited.
In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had
other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have
a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even
if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we
can loose a lot before we drop 16%.
Examples of towns with a population of 40,000, as cited by David Cantrell,
include Bishop's Stortford[2]. A very unscientific look at the aerial
images of the town suggests to me that more than half the homes have
off street parking.
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.
[1]
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/6748/2173483.pdf
[2] Closest to 40k in https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-cities-population-1000/
BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where
a charger could be installed? I'd guess that it's quite a small number.
It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.
tim...
2019-09-10 09:32:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:16:41 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell
Post by David Cantrell
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.
Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.
That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas for
which BEVs are best suited.
In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had
other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have
a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even
if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we
can loose a lot before we drop 16%.
Examples of towns with a population of 40,000, as cited by David Cantrell,
include Bishop's Stortford[2]. A very unscientific look at the aerial
images of the town suggests to me that more than half the homes have
off street parking.
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.
[1]
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/6748/2173483.pdf
[2] Closest to 40k in
https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-cities-population-1000/
BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where
a charger could be installed? I'd guess that it's quite a small number.
It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.
Problem of charging aside, the problem with this MO as a way of increasing
ownership of electric cars is that most families will have the city
"run-around" as a second car.

not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car

tim
Recliner
2019-09-10 09:42:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:16:41 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell
Post by David Cantrell
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.
Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.
That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas for
which BEVs are best suited.
In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had
other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have
a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even
if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we
can loose a lot before we drop 16%.
Examples of towns with a population of 40,000, as cited by David Cantrell,
include Bishop's Stortford[2]. A very unscientific look at the aerial
images of the town suggests to me that more than half the homes have
off street parking.
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.
[1]
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/6748/2173483.pdf
[2] Closest to 40k in
https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-cities-population-1000/
BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where
a charger could be installed? I'd guess that it's quite a small number.
It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.
Problem of charging aside, the problem with this MO as a way of increasing
ownership of electric cars is that most families will have the city
"run-around" as a second car.
True, or even the third car.
Post by tim...
not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car
It's cheaper than the SUV they probably already have as the second car.
Roland Perry
2019-09-10 10:04:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car
It's cheaper than the SUV they probably already have as the second car.
I've got a £10k SUV as my first car. Not everyone buys new.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-09-10 10:20:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car
It's cheaper than the SUV they probably already have as the second car.
I've got a £10k SUV as my first car. Not everyone buys new.
Plenty can afford it, and do, particularly on PCP. Or they buy nearly new.

Apart from my very first car, I've always had brand new cars, whether as
company vehicles or personal purchases.
Roland Perry
2019-09-10 11:13:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car
It's cheaper than the SUV they probably already have as the second car.
I've got a £10k SUV as my first car. Not everyone buys new.
Plenty can afford it, and do, particularly on PCP.
I'm not sure there aren't some rather onerous requirements for PCP. Like
endowment mortgages back in the day, rather too much pressure which
indicates it's better for the seller than the buyer than the seller.
Post by Recliner
Or they buy nearly new.
For a long time my preference was to buy 3yr-old ex-company cars.
Usually at the big auctions. I'm now more into 6yr-old cars with 3yr
mileage on them.
Post by Recliner
Apart from my very first car, I've always had brand new cars, whether as
company vehicles or personal purchases.
I was spoilt for a long time by being given brand new company cars
(never met a company prepared to buy a used car) although that often
restricts the choice to something I might not have bought with my own
money.

Being 'forced' to change it after three years when perfectly happy with
it, grated a bit. One company I know churned them at six months!
--
Roland Perry
MissRiaElaine
2019-09-10 11:26:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Apart from my very first car, I've always had brand new cars, whether as
company vehicles or personal purchases.
Same as my dad. I never did get where he found the money, as we weren't
a rich family when I was growing up. Still aren't..!
Post by Roland Perry
I was spoilt for a long time by being given brand new company cars
(never met a company prepared to buy a used car) although that often
restricts the choice to something I might not have bought with my own
money.
Being 'forced' to change it after three years when perfectly happy with
it, grated a bit. One company I know churned them at six months!
I was extremely dis-chuffed when the local car club here decided to get
rid of the Hyundai ix35 hydrogen cars they had after three years, with
only 14k miles on them. It had taken me two of those years to persuade
them to let me have access to them, as they were technically council
pool cars.
--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]
Recliner
2019-09-10 11:48:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car
It's cheaper than the SUV they probably already have as the second car.
I've got a £10k SUV as my first car. Not everyone buys new.
Plenty can afford it, and do, particularly on PCP.
I'm not sure there aren't some rather onerous requirements for PCP. Like
endowment mortgages back in the day, rather too much pressure which
indicates it's better for the seller than the buyer than the seller.
Oh, I'm quite sure they're better for the sellers than the buyers.
There are many stories of people who've agreed a deal to buy a car,
with a discount or extras thrown in, but when the salesman discovered
that they didn't want credit, the deal was withdrawn, and a much worse
price offered.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Or they buy nearly new.
For a long time my preference was to buy 3yr-old ex-company cars.
Usually at the big auctions. I'm now more into 6yr-old cars with 3yr
mileage on them.
Post by Recliner
Apart from my very first car, I've always had brand new cars, whether as
company vehicles or personal purchases.
I was spoilt for a long time by being given brand new company cars
(never met a company prepared to buy a used car) although that often
restricts the choice to something I might not have bought with my own
money.
I always chose my company cars, including the model, colour, options,
etc.

I even had an Alfa Romeo once, hardly a typical company car (with good
reason). On more than one occasion both rear doors refused to open,
and my rear seat passengers had to climb over the (non-folding) front
seats. And I could often harvest a small crop of little screws on the
carpet under the dashboard.
Post by Roland Perry
Being 'forced' to change it after three years when perfectly happy with
it, grated a bit. One company I know churned them at six months!
Agreed.
Roland Perry
2019-09-10 12:26:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
I was spoilt for a long time by being given brand new company cars
(never met a company prepared to buy a used car) although that often
restricts the choice to something I might not have bought with my own
money.
I always chose my company cars, including the model, colour, options,
etc.
Most companies have policies, which even if they aren't "this model,
whatever colour they have in stock this week", can include parameters
such as insisting on 4+ doors (so customers can be taken out to lunch in
relative comfort), specific makes, and a non-negotiable ceiling price.
Post by Recliner
I even had an Alfa Romeo once
Sometimes it's possible to play the system, so with the constraint once
of "Any Astra this garage has in stock", I got away with a red GTE.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-09-10 12:48:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
I was spoilt for a long time by being given brand new company cars
(never met a company prepared to buy a used car) although that often
restricts the choice to something I might not have bought with my own
money.
I always chose my company cars, including the model, colour, options,
etc.
Most companies have policies, which even if they aren't "this model,
whatever colour they have in stock this week", can include parameters
such as insisting on 4+ doors (so customers can be taken out to lunch in
relative comfort), specific makes, and a non-negotiable ceiling price.
Those policies applied early in my career, but later, the rules that I
had to follow were much more flexible for senior staff.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
I even had an Alfa Romeo once
Sometimes it's possible to play the system, so with the constraint once
of "Any Astra this garage has in stock", I got away with a red GTE.
All my company cars were ordered for me, built to my spec.
Roland Perry
2019-09-10 13:28:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Most companies have policies, which even if they aren't "this model,
whatever colour they have in stock this week", can include parameters
such as insisting on 4+ doors (so customers can be taken out to lunch in
relative comfort), specific makes, and a non-negotiable ceiling price.
Those policies applied early in my career, but later, the rules that I
had to follow were much more flexible for senior staff.
Depends on the company. Some expect the senior staff to set an example
to the more junior ones, by adhering to a fairly strict policy.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
I even had an Alfa Romeo once
Sometimes it's possible to play the system, so with the constraint once
of "Any Astra this garage has in stock", I got away with a red GTE.
All my company cars were ordered for me, built to my spec.
That wouldn't have worked for my Astra, because I needed it by the end
of the week.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-09-10 14:15:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Most companies have policies, which even if they aren't "this model,
whatever colour they have in stock this week", can include parameters
such as insisting on 4+ doors (so customers can be taken out to lunch in
relative comfort), specific makes, and a non-negotiable ceiling price.
Those policies applied early in my career, but later, the rules that I
had to follow were much more flexible for senior staff.
Depends on the company. Some expect the senior staff to set an example
to the more junior ones, by adhering to a fairly strict policy.
True, but luckily it didn't happen with me. I knew one company where
the owner had an M3 as his company car, and used that as a reason to
stop anyone else from having anything more than the lesser 3 Series
models.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
I even had an Alfa Romeo once
Sometimes it's possible to play the system, so with the constraint once
of "Any Astra this garage has in stock", I got away with a red GTE.
All my company cars were ordered for me, built to my spec.
That wouldn't have worked for my Astra, because I needed it by the end
of the week.
I sometimes had to wait months for my new BMWs to be built to my
exacting spec, but I had a perfectly good previous car in the mean
time.
tim...
2019-09-10 10:46:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:16:41 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell
Post by David Cantrell
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the
town
of
40,000 that my parents live in.
Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.
That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban
areas
for
which BEVs are best suited.
In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had
other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have
a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even
if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we
can loose a lot before we drop 16%.
Examples of towns with a population of 40,000, as cited by David Cantrell,
include Bishop's Stortford[2]. A very unscientific look at the aerial
images of the town suggests to me that more than half the homes have
off street parking.
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.
[1]
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/6748/2173483.pdf
[2] Closest to 40k in
https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-cities-population-1000/
BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where
a charger could be installed? I'd guess that it's quite a small number.
It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.
Problem of charging aside, the problem with this MO as a way of increasing
ownership of electric cars is that most families will have the city
"run-around" as a second car.
True, or even the third car.
Post by tim...
not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car
It's cheaper than the SUV they probably already have as the second car.
We need some figures for that

An SUV could very easily be the first car in many families

Just because it's being used for the homemaker to take kids to school,
doesn't mean it's the family's second car, especially in the central zones
where the wage earner can easily walk to the tube to get to work.

tim
Roland Perry
2019-09-10 10:02:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where
a charger could be installed? I'd guess that it's quite a small number.
It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.
Problem of charging aside, the problem with this MO as a way of
increasing ownership of electric cars is that most families will have
the city "run-around" as a second car.
not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car
I went to a "Motor Show" (at ExCel) perhaps ten years ago when electric
cars were first 'a thing', and the vast majority were concept cars about
the size of an original mini.

I'd seriously consider something like an electric Kia Picanto, as long
as it wasn't significantly more expensive than a petrol one. Let's say
£12k.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-09-10 10:17:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where
a charger could be installed? I'd guess that it's quite a small number.
It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.
Problem of charging aside, the problem with this MO as a way of
increasing ownership of electric cars is that most families will have
the city "run-around" as a second car.
not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car
I went to a "Motor Show" (at ExCel) perhaps ten years ago when electric
cars were first 'a thing', and the vast majority were concept cars about
the size of an original mini.
I'd seriously consider something like an electric Kia Picanto, as long
as it wasn't significantly more expensive than a petrol one. Let's say
£12k.
Tesla can be credited for the smart idea that, as BEVs are inherently
expensive to build, they might as well be premium (big, fast and luxurious)
as well. So the Model S competes with the likes of the S-Class Mercedes,
BMW 7 Series and Lexus LX. And in the US at least that strategy has worked.
Conversely, cheap little BEVs have all flopped.

Thanks to cheaper batteries, entry level BEVs are now more affordable, with
a decent range, and Kia does an excellent, very popular one. However, not
only can you not afford it, but it's also sold out a long way ahead anyway.

<https://www.whatcar.com/kia/e-niro/estate/review/n18388>
Roland Perry
2019-09-10 11:21:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where
a charger could be installed? I'd guess that it's quite a small number.
It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.
Problem of charging aside, the problem with this MO as a way of
increasing ownership of electric cars is that most families will have
the city "run-around" as a second car.
not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car
I went to a "Motor Show" (at ExCel) perhaps ten years ago when electric
cars were first 'a thing', and the vast majority were concept cars about
the size of an original mini.
I'd seriously consider something like an electric Kia Picanto, as long
as it wasn't significantly more expensive than a petrol one. Let's say
£12k.
Tesla can be credited for the smart idea that, as BEVs are inherently
expensive to build, they might as well be premium (big, fast and luxurious)
as well. So the Model S competes with the likes of the S-Class Mercedes,
BMW 7 Series and Lexus LX. And in the US at least that strategy has worked.
Conversely, cheap little BEVs have all flopped.
You'd think the Guardian Readers would have lapped them up.
Post by Recliner
Thanks to cheaper batteries, entry level BEVs are now more affordable, with
a decent range, and Kia does an excellent, very popular one. However, not
only can you not afford it, but it's also sold out a long way ahead anyway.
<https://www.whatcar.com/kia/e-niro/estate/review/n18388>
That's not a city car, and I choose not to spend money on assets which
waste quite as fast as a brand new car.

Meanwhile, Brexiteers are apparently queuing up to buy these:

<https://lh3.ggpht.com/_Tsf-t_mqSxc/TIdk8P2zOkI/AAAAAAAAjKA/CFk-
UPFzGbw/s800/1967%20Fiat%20125%20Executive%20Bertone_01.jpg>
--
Roland Perry
Theo
2019-09-10 11:10:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
I'd seriously consider something like an electric Kia Picanto, as long
as it wasn't significantly more expensive than a petrol one. Let's say
£12k.
A used ~2012 Nissan Leaf or Mitsubishi i-MIEV (Citreon C-Zero, Peugeot Ion)
start at about £5K.

Obviously whether they're suitable for you will depend on your use case.
(in particular the range of 60-100 miles means they're not ideal for long
journeys)

There's also the Renault Zoe in that price bracket, although the battery
leasing makes them less attractive unless you do a lot of miles.

Theo
Roland Perry
2019-09-10 11:29:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by Roland Perry
I'd seriously consider something like an electric Kia Picanto, as long
as it wasn't significantly more expensive than a petrol one. Let's say
£12k.
A used ~2012 Nissan Leaf or Mitsubishi i-MIEV (Citreon C-Zero, Peugeot Ion)
start at about £5K.
Obviously whether they're suitable for you will depend on your use case.
(in particular the range of 60-100 miles means they're not ideal for long
journeys)
There's also the Renault Zoe in that price bracket, although the battery
leasing makes them less attractive unless you do a lot of miles.
The Peugeot looks interesting, but Insurance Group 28 - is that a
misprint!

It's the kind of car which would need recharging every night, like an
early 3G phone. I wonder if the secondhand prices include the charger.
--
Roland Perry
Theo
2019-09-10 13:37:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
The Peugeot looks interesting, but Insurance Group 28 - is that a
misprint!
That does appear to be the case - the same for the Mitsubishi and Citroen
versions. I'm not sure why - even a Leaf is lower. It's possible insurance
quotes will take other things beyond group into account (eg actual incident
stats).
Post by Roland Perry
It's the kind of car which would need recharging every night, like an
early 3G phone. I wonder if the secondhand prices include the charger.
Probably not, but a charger fitted is GBP100-200 on the grant scheme.

Theo
Roland Perry
2019-09-10 14:31:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by Roland Perry
The Peugeot looks interesting, but Insurance Group 28 - is that a
misprint!
That does appear to be the case - the same for the Mitsubishi and Citroen
versions. I'm not sure why - even a Leaf is lower. It's possible insurance
quotes will take other things beyond group into account (eg actual incident
stats).
Post by Roland Perry
It's the kind of car which would need recharging every night, like an
early 3G phone. I wonder if the secondhand prices include the charger.
Probably not, but a charger fitted is GBP100-200 on the grant scheme.
Does that include the wiring from the distribution box to the garage?
--
Roland Perry
Theo
2019-09-10 16:12:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Does that include the wiring from the distribution box to the garage?
https://www.edfenergy.com/sites/default/files/ev_charge_point_tcs.pdf

‘Standard Installation’ means an installation that can be carried out at
the Site without any additional site preparation works, man hours or
additional equipment to install the Equipment and shall include, but not be
limited, to the following:
a. fitting of the Equipment on to an internal or
external, existing brick or plaster wall, or to another suitably robust
permanent structure at the Site;
b. up to 10 metres of cable, neatly clipped
to the wall(s) or run in suitable trunking fixed to the wall between the
main electricity distribution board and the Equipment;
c. fitting and testing of electrical connections and protections required;
d. an additional individual consumer unit, if required
e. installation of a Type C MCB or a Type A RCD/RCBO in an enclosure;
f. an earth rod in soft ground, if required;

(that particular instance is GBP299, only selected because it came up
recently on another newsgroup. Others are cheaper)

Theo
Roland Perry
2019-09-10 18:51:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by Roland Perry
Does that include the wiring from the distribution box to the garage?
https://www.edfenergy.com/sites/default/files/ev_charge_point_tcs.pdf
‘Standard Installation’ means an installation that can be carried out at
the Site without any additional site preparation works, man hours or
additional equipment to install the Equipment and shall include, but not be
a. fitting of the Equipment on to an internal or
external, existing brick or plaster wall, or to another suitably robust
permanent structure at the Site;
b. up to 10 metres of cable, neatly clipped
to the wall(s) or run in suitable trunking fixed to the wall between the
main electricity distribution board and the Equipment;
c. fitting and testing of electrical connections and protections required;
d. an additional individual consumer unit, if required
e. installation of a Type C MCB or a Type A RCD/RCBO in an enclosure;
f. an earth rod in soft ground, if required;
(that particular instance is GBP299, only selected because it came up
recently on another newsgroup. Others are cheaper)
No good for about half the houses-with-garages I've owned over the
years, then. Only works for an integral garage, not most detached ones.
Not that I've ever used an integral garage to store a car in (rather
than using it as a lockup).
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-09-10 19:16:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Theo
Post by Roland Perry
Does that include the wiring from the distribution box to the garage?
https://www.edfenergy.com/sites/default/files/ev_charge_point_tcs.pdf
‘Standard Installation’ means an installation that can be carried out at
the Site without any additional site preparation works, man hours or
additional equipment to install the Equipment and shall include, but not be
a. fitting of the Equipment on to an internal or
external, existing brick or plaster wall, or to another suitably robust
permanent structure at the Site;
b. up to 10 metres of cable, neatly clipped
to the wall(s) or run in suitable trunking fixed to the wall between the
main electricity distribution board and the Equipment;
c. fitting and testing of electrical connections and protections required;
d. an additional individual consumer unit, if required
e. installation of a Type C MCB or a Type A RCD/RCBO in an enclosure;
f. an earth rod in soft ground, if required;
(that particular instance is GBP299, only selected because it came up
recently on another newsgroup. Others are cheaper)
No good for about half the houses-with-garages I've owned over the
years, then. Only works for an integral garage, not most detached ones.
Not that I've ever used an integral garage to store a car in (rather
than using it as a lockup).
And I think you're typical of most garage owners. In any case, many modern
cars are simply too wide to fit comfortably in a traditional British
garage.

But, of course, if you have an integral garage, you probably have space to
park a BEV and somewhere to mount a charger box.

tim...
2019-09-10 12:14:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by Roland Perry
I'd seriously consider something like an electric Kia Picanto, as long
as it wasn't significantly more expensive than a petrol one. Let's say
£12k.
A used ~2012 Nissan Leaf or Mitsubishi i-MIEV (Citreon C-Zero, Peugeot Ion)
start at about £5K.
Obviously whether they're suitable for you will depend on your use case.
(in particular the range of 60-100 miles means they're not ideal for long
journeys)
There's also the Renault Zoe in that price bracket, although the battery
leasing makes them less attractive unless you do a lot of miles.
surely a 7 year old car's going to have knackered battery

tim
Theo
2019-09-10 13:31:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
surely a 7 year old car's going to have knackered battery
The Leaf has a battery capacity gauge - most of the ones on sale have 11 or
12 bars (out of 12), suggesting the battery is in reasonable condition. A
few at the cheaper end have 10 bars - probably worth paying a little more to
avoid those.

Newer cars have better battery management, so the batteries last longer.
But the early gen cars are still quite usable.

Theo
Graeme Wall
2019-09-10 13:59:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Theo
Post by Roland Perry
I'd seriously consider something like an electric Kia Picanto, as long
as it wasn't significantly more expensive than a petrol one. Let's say
£12k.
A used ~2012 Nissan Leaf or Mitsubishi i-MIEV (Citreon C-Zero, Peugeot Ion)
start at about £5K.
Obviously whether they're suitable for you will depend on your use case.
(in particular the range of 60-100 miles means they're not ideal for long
journeys)
There's also the Renault Zoe in that price bracket, although the battery
leasing makes them less attractive unless you do a lot of miles.
surely a 7 year old car's going to have knackered battery
One of the unknown quantities with electric cars, they've not really
been around long enough to establish a benchmark for battery life.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Recliner
2019-09-10 16:05:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Theo
Post by Roland Perry
I'd seriously consider something like an electric Kia Picanto, as long
as it wasn't significantly more expensive than a petrol one. Let's say
£12k.
A used ~2012 Nissan Leaf or Mitsubishi i-MIEV (Citreon C-Zero, Peugeot Ion)
start at about £5K.
Obviously whether they're suitable for you will depend on your use case.
(in particular the range of 60-100 miles means they're not ideal for long
journeys)
There's also the Renault Zoe in that price bracket, although the battery
leasing makes them less attractive unless you do a lot of miles.
surely a 7 year old car's going to have knackered battery
One of the unknown quantities with electric cars, they've not really
been around long enough to establish a benchmark for battery life.
<https://cleantechnica.com/2018/04/16/tesla-batteries-have-90-capacity-after-160000-miles-may-last-for-500000-miles/>
David Walters
2019-09-10 12:57:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where
a charger could be installed?
It's certainly lower but then so is car ownership. Apparently 74%
of households in Islington don't have a car and I believe that number
is increasing.
Post by Recliner
It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.
It's the suburbs where all the car owning households are.
Recliner
2019-09-10 12:59:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 13:57:30 +0100, David Walters
Post by David Walters
Post by Recliner
BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where
a charger could be installed?
It's certainly lower but then so is car ownership. Apparently 74%
of households in Islington don't have a car and I believe that number
is increasing.
Post by Recliner
It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.
It's the suburbs where all the car owning households are.
London suburbs have plenty of flats and terrace houses. And the
majority of them have at least one car.
tim...
2019-09-10 13:53:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 23:32:27 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where
a charger could be installed?
It's certainly lower but then so is car ownership. Apparently 74%
of households in Islington don't have a car and I believe that number
is increasing.
Post by Recliner
It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.
It's the suburbs where all the car owning households are.
Oh

so I don't see all the resident's spaces outside my window that are
currently empty all filled up at 6pm, then

tim
tim...
2019-09-10 09:26:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:16:41 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell
Post by David Cantrell
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.
Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.
That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas for
which BEVs are best suited.
In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had
other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have
a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even
if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we
can loose a lot before we drop 16%.
As a habitual flat dweller (12% of the housing stock), I can tell you that
every time I have had a flat with a garage (which I confess is a bit short
of 50%) It has always been of the "block round the back" type with no
alternative off street parking
Examples of towns with a population of 40,000, as cited by David Cantrell,
include Bishop's Stortford[2]. A very unscientific look at the aerial
images of the town suggests to me that more than half the homes have
off street parking.
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.
[1]
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/6748/2173483.pdf
[2] Closest to 40k in
https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-cities-population-1000/
who'd have thought that the silly litter town that was my previous place of
abode, with no Aldi or Lidl, would make it almost into the top 500.
David Cantrell
2019-09-10 09:46:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by David Walters
Post by David Cantrell
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.
Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.
That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats?
The national average is "about half".

Even so, it means that electric vehicles not only aren't suitable for
about half the people who live there, they're also unsuitable for people
who *do* have their own drive but who have to visit people and places
that don't have a private drive.

My sister, for example, has private off road parking. But my parents
don't, and I don't, never mind any other relations and other people who
she might visit. That means that an electric vehicle would be a pain in
the arse for her even though she could have a private charger at home.
Post by Recliner
That's not typical of the urban areas for which BEVs are best suited.
What's a "BEV"? All these weird abbreviations confuse me.
--
David Cantrell | top google result for "internet beard fetish club"

Blessed are the pessimists, for they test their backups
Recliner
2019-09-10 09:54:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Cantrell
Post by Recliner
Post by David Walters
Post by David Cantrell
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.
Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.
That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats?
The national average is "about half".
Even so, it means that electric vehicles not only aren't suitable for
about half the people who live there, they're also unsuitable for people
who *do* have their own drive but who have to visit people and places
that don't have a private drive.
My sister, for example, has private off road parking. But my parents
don't, and I don't, never mind any other relations and other people who
she might visit. That means that an electric vehicle would be a pain in
the arse for her even though she could have a private charger at home.
Post by Recliner
That's not typical of the urban areas for which BEVs are best suited.
What's a "BEV"? All these weird abbreviations confuse me.
It's the normal abbreviation for a Battery Electric Vehicle, as opposed to
a PHEV.
tim...
2019-09-09 11:23:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Walters
Post by David Cantrell
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.
Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.
and what do the other half do?

tim
Trolleybus
2019-09-08 10:39:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 01:36:43 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transport-secretary-grant-shapps-on-why-he-bought-a-tesla-model-3-0tnhhks7j?shareToken=a70221daed84a5f553e362f97fc7a5a7>
Good job he got his Telsa before the subsidy's withdrawn, then.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/electric-car-grant-will-fizzle-out-bfq8b6ppp

And the minister pointing this out? Grant Shapps.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Loading...