Discussion:
Distances from London
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Basil Jet
2019-09-12 15:23:37 UTC
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The AA used to produce a set of paper maps which were mostly black and
white but had red lines indicating the best driving route from the city
named on the front to every major town in Britain. Does anyone know what
they were called, because I can't find anything abut them on the web.
I'd like to know for how many different cities were these maps produced.
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Gang Of Four - 2019 - Happy Now
Roland Perry
2019-09-12 16:29:47 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
The AA used to produce a set of paper maps which were mostly black and
white but had red lines indicating the best driving route from the city
named on the front to every major town in Britain. Does anyone know
what they were called, because I can't find anything abut them on the
web. I'd like to know for how many different cities were these maps
produced.
My recollection is that there were a surprisingly large number of them,
indeed you might even be able to get a custom one. I wonder what process
they used to produce them?
--
Roland Perry
John Williamson
2019-09-12 18:07:40 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
My recollection is that there were a surprisingly large number of them,
indeed you might even be able to get a custom one. I wonder what process
they used to produce them?
The ones I remember are the ones we used to order before going on
holiday in a new area.

Send them the required start and finish points, and you got a booklet of
strip maps, sort of like the ones that Autoroute could be told to print
out in its early days. They had written directions on them as well.

I think they were produced by using a standard set of route segments,
assembled by hand.

<Checks> Blimey,they still offer the service,but it's on line now.

Nowadays, you can print the text route (Including the signs to follow at
major junctions) yourself with an option to print a map of any confusing
sections.

https://www.theaa.com/route-planner/route
--
Tciao for Now!

John.
Peter Able
2019-09-13 17:47:59 UTC
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Permalink
Post by John Williamson
Post by Roland Perry
My recollection is that there were a surprisingly large number of them,
indeed you might even be able to get a custom one. I wonder what process
they used to produce them?
The ones I remember are the ones we used to order before going on
holiday in a new area.
Send them the required start and finish points, and you got a booklet of
strip maps, sort of like the ones that Autoroute could be told to print
out in its early days. They had written directions on them as well.
I think they were produced by using a standard set of route segments,
assembled by hand.
<Checks> Blimey,they still offer the service,but it's on line now.
Nowadays, you can print the text route (Including the signs to follow at
major junctions) yourself with an option to print a map of any confusing
sections.
https://www.theaa.com/route-planner/route
https://www.theaa.com/about-us/aa-history/timeline#aaroutes

PA
Basil Jet
2019-09-13 19:50:20 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Peter Able
Post by John Williamson
Post by Roland Perry
My recollection is that there were a surprisingly large number of them,
indeed you might even be able to get a custom one. I wonder what process
they used to produce them?
The ones I remember are the ones we used to order before going on
holiday in a new area.
Send them the required start and finish points, and you got a booklet
of strip maps, sort of like the ones that Autoroute could be told to
print out in its early days. They had written directions on them as well.
I think they were produced by using a standard set of route segments,
assembled by hand.
<Checks> Blimey,they still offer the service,but it's on line now.
Nowadays, you can print the text route (Including the signs to follow
at major junctions) yourself with an option to print a map of any
confusing sections.
https://www.theaa.com/route-planner/route
https://www.theaa.com/about-us/aa-history/timeline#aaroutes
Thanks, the pertinent bit is lower down at
https://www.theaa.com/about-us/aa-history/timeline#routesgrowth

The maps were called "Throughroutes", and there were about 50 of them.
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Sleater-Kinney - 2000 - All Hands On The Bad One
Roland Perry
2019-09-13 20:34:51 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Peter Able
Post by John Williamson
Post by Roland Perry
My recollection is that there were a surprisingly large number of them,
indeed you might even be able to get a custom one. I wonder what process
they used to produce them?
The ones I remember are the ones we used to order before going on
holiday in a new area.
Send them the required start and finish points, and you got a
booklet of strip maps, sort of like the ones that Autoroute could be
told to print out in its early days. They had written directions on
them as well.
I think they were produced by using a standard set of route
segments, assembled by hand.
<Checks> Blimey,they still offer the service,but it's on line now.
Nowadays, you can print the text route (Including the signs to
follow at major junctions) yourself with an option to print a map of
any confusing sections.
https://www.theaa.com/route-planner/route
https://www.theaa.com/about-us/aa-history/timeline#aaroutes
Thanks, the pertinent bit is lower down at
https://www.theaa.com/about-us/aa-history/timeline#routesgrowth
The maps were called "Throughroutes", and there were about 50 of them.
Where were the ones starting in London originated from?
--
Roland Perry
D A Stocks
2019-09-14 09:16:13 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Peter Able
Post by John Williamson
Post by Roland Perry
My recollection is that there were a surprisingly large number of them,
indeed you might even be able to get a custom one. I wonder what process
they used to produce them?
The ones I remember are the ones we used to order before going on
holiday in a new area.
Send them the required start and finish points, and you got a booklet
of strip maps, sort of like the ones that Autoroute could be told to
print out in its early days. They had written directions on them as well.
I think they were produced by using a standard set of route segments,
assembled by hand.
<Checks> Blimey,they still offer the service,but it's on line now.
Nowadays, you can print the text route (Including the signs to follow
at major junctions) yourself with an option to print a map of any
confusing sections.
https://www.theaa.com/route-planner/route
https://www.theaa.com/about-us/aa-history/timeline#aaroutes
Thanks, the pertinent bit is lower down at
https://www.theaa.com/about-us/aa-history/timeline#routesgrowth
The maps were called "Throughroutes", and there were about 50 of them.
Where were the ones starting in London originated from?
I have an ancient AA Road Book ("second post-war edition") with maps and
desriptions of these routes. For anywhere outside the London area "London"
is always Hyde Park Corner. However, the descriptions include routes from
Kew Bridge, London Bridge, Blackwall Tunnel and Woolwich Ferry. There is
also a table of distances in the back, which are all from Charing Cross.

--
DAS
Roland Perry
2019-09-14 11:45:41 UTC
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Permalink
Post by D A Stocks
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Peter Able
Post by John Williamson
Post by Roland Perry
My recollection is that there were a surprisingly large number of them,
indeed you might even be able to get a custom one. I wonder what process
they used to produce them?
The ones I remember are the ones we used to order before going on
holiday in a new area.
Send them the required start and finish points, and you got a
booklet of strip maps, sort of like the ones that Autoroute could
be told to print out in its early days. They had written
directions on them as well.
I think they were produced by using a standard set of route
segments, assembled by hand.
<Checks> Blimey,they still offer the service,but it's on line now.
Nowadays, you can print the text route (Including the signs to
follow at major junctions) yourself with an option to print a map
of any confusing sections.
https://www.theaa.com/route-planner/route
https://www.theaa.com/about-us/aa-history/timeline#aaroutes
Thanks, the pertinent bit is lower down at
https://www.theaa.com/about-us/aa-history/timeline#routesgrowth
The maps were called "Throughroutes", and there were about 50 of them.
Where were the ones starting in London originated from?
I have an ancient AA Road Book ("second post-war edition") with maps
and desriptions of these routes. For anywhere outside the London area
"London" is always Hyde Park Corner. However, the descriptions include
routes from Kew Bridge, London Bridge, Blackwall Tunnel and Woolwich
Ferry. There is also a table of distances in the back, which are all
from Charing Cross.
Thanks for that. Sounds like it was produced in the transitional phase
where the various peripheral gateways were being consolidated onto
Trafalgar Square.

(I presume they didn't mean Charing Cross Station, or the replica Cross
in its forecourt).
--
Roland Perry
John Williamson
2019-09-14 14:49:30 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
(I presume they didn't mean Charing Cross Station, or the replica Cross
in its forecourt).
The official centre of London, from which all mileages are supposedly
measured has been the statue of Charles I in Trafalgar Square for quite
a while now. Presumably, for the pedantic, from the top of his head or
where his body meets the saddle. (Phew! I managed to avoid saying a rude
word. :-) )
--
Tciao for Now!

John.
Roland Perry
2019-09-14 15:38:47 UTC
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Post by John Williamson
Post by Roland Perry
(I presume they didn't mean Charing Cross Station, or the replica Cross
in its forecourt).
The official centre of London, from which all mileages are supposedly
measured has been the statue of Charles I in Trafalgar Square for quite
a while now. Presumably, for the pedantic, from the top of his head or
where his body meets the saddle. (Phew! I managed to avoid saying a
rude word. :-) )
That's precisely what we are discussing, but in the absence of any
evidence of who/what made it official (and when).
--
Roland Perry
John Williamson
2019-09-14 16:42:01 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
That's precisely what we are discussing, but in the absence of any
evidence of who/what made it official (and when).
This is the best explanation I've seen.:-

"The custom of considering the location of the old Charing Cross to be
the arbitrary centre of London seems to have arisen in the late 18th or
early 19th century. Laws and rules were often written from that period
specifying that everything within a certain distance of Charing Cross
was to be considered part of London. In 1864 the new Charing Cross
railway station opened on the Strand, just adjacent to the new Trafalgar
Square, and the South Eastern Railway commissioned a new Cross to stand
in the station forecourt - a few hundred yards from the site of the
medieval original. London’s black-cab taxi drivers treat this new Cross
as the centre of the city: their famously rigorous “Knowledge” training
requires them to commit to memory every street and point of interest
within six miles of the station forecourt."

The original Charing Cross was on the site of the current statue of
Charles I, but the cross in the station forecourt dates from the 1860s,
so the cabbie's idea of the central point is from 1864 at the earliest,
when the station opened to traffic. The official centre is apparently
the plaque marking the site of the original Charing Cross, not the
statue.I was mistaken earlier.


I reckon treating Charles as the centre just arose out of "custom and
practice" as the Government grew and moved into Whitehall, and distances
from the centre of Government needed to be specified for various
reasons. One example of this in the 1970s was when I worked for BR in
Watford, and the "London allowance" which would have increased my salary
by about 10% was only available as far out as the South side of the road
our office block occupied the North side of.

The London Stone, originally sited in the middle of what is now Cannon
Street, has also been considered to be the "centre of London", and was
traditionally a place to seal a binding bargain up until at least the
middle ages.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.
Basil Jet
2019-09-14 17:26:17 UTC
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Post by John Williamson
The London Stone, originally sited in the middle of what is now Cannon
Street, has also been considered to be the "centre of London", and was
traditionally a place to seal a binding bargain up until at least the
middle ages.
In the middle? Do you mean with vehicles passing both side of it?

It's now in a little cage at one side of Cannon Street.
https://goo.gl/maps/s6zetFj72tU8ZN37A
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
The Cardigans - 2003 - Long Gone Before Daylight
John Williamson
2019-09-14 17:35:12 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by John Williamson
The London Stone, originally sited in the middle of what is now Cannon
Street, has also been considered to be the "centre of London", and was
traditionally a place to seal a binding bargain up until at least the
middle ages.
In the middle? Do you mean with vehicles passing both side of it?
Pretty much, yes, and it even had to have a protective cover put over it
as traffic increased and it started getting hit by cart wheels. the
damage is still visible today.

From Wikilies:- "This is a fragment of the original piece of limestone
once securely fixed in the ground now fronting Cannon Street Station.

Removed in 1742 to the north side of the street, in 1798 it was built
into the south wall of the Church of St. Swithun London Stone which
stood here until demolished in 1962.

Its origin and purpose are unknown but in 1188 there was a reference to
Henry, son of Eylwin de Lundenstane, subsequently Lord Mayor of London."
Post by Basil Jet
It's now in a little cage at one side of Cannon Street.
https://goo.gl/maps/s6zetFj72tU8ZN37A
During the renovations at that site, it is on temporary display in the
Museum Of London.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.
Roland Perry
2019-09-14 18:48:26 UTC
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Post by John Williamson
Post by Roland Perry
That's precisely what we are discussing, but in the absence of any
evidence of who/what made it official (and when).
This is the best explanation I've seen.:-
"The custom of considering the location of the old Charing Cross to be
the arbitrary centre of London seems to have arisen in the late 18th or
early 19th century. Laws and rules were often written from that period
specifying that everything within a certain distance of Charing Cross
was to be considered part of London. In 1864 the new Charing Cross
railway station opened on the Strand, just adjacent to the new
Trafalgar Square, and the South Eastern Railway commissioned a new
Cross to stand in the station forecourt - a few hundred yards from the
site of the medieval original. London’s black-cab taxi drivers treat
this new Cross as the centre of the city: their famously rigorous
“Knowledge” training requires them to commit to memory every street
and point of interest within six miles of the station forecourt."
The original Charing Cross was on the site of the current statue of
Charles I, but the cross in the station forecourt dates from the 1860s,
so the cabbie's idea of the central point is from 1864 at the earliest,
when the station opened to traffic. The official centre is apparently
the plaque marking the site of the original Charing Cross, not the
statue.I was mistaken earlier.
I reckon treating Charles as the centre just arose out of "custom and
practice" as the Government grew and moved into Whitehall,
Moved from where?
Post by John Williamson
and distances from the centre of Government needed to be specified for
various reasons. One example of this in the 1970s was when I worked for
BR in Watford, and the "London allowance" which would have increased my
salary by about 10% was only available as far out as the South side of
the road our office block occupied the North side of.
The London Stone, originally sited in the middle of what is now Cannon
Street, has also been considered to be the "centre of London", and was
traditionally a place to seal a binding bargain up until at least the
middle ages.
Most of what you say has already been explored earlier in the thread.
The "London Allowance" however is a surprise, and I'd have expected it
to be based on boroughs, some of whose boundaries are indeed down the
middle of streets. Chorleywood, not far from Watford, being one example.
--
Roland Perry
John Williamson
2019-09-14 19:28:49 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by John Williamson
I reckon treating Charles as the centre just arose out of "custom and
practice" as the Government grew and moved into Whitehall,
Moved from where?
There was a process of centralisation over that period of the Civil
service for things like tax collection. Charles's statue just marked the
end of Whitehall, as Trafalgar Square didn't exist.
Post by Roland Perry
Most of what you say has already been explored earlier in the thread.
The "London Allowance" however is a surprise, and I'd have expected it
to be based on boroughs, some of whose boundaries are indeed down the
middle of streets. Chorleywood, not far from Watford, being one example.
In this case, it was actually based on the distance from the region's
headquarters, which was Euston Station, (15 miles was the limit, and we
were a street's width outside. The office location had been chosen on
that basis, according to the more cynical of us.) presumably measured
from the buffers.

The Union had "had words", but we were stuck with it. Rules is rules, innit?
--
Tciao for Now!

John.
Robin
2019-09-14 22:24:59 UTC
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Permalink
Post by John Williamson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by John Williamson
I reckon treating Charles as the centre just arose out of "custom and
practice" as the Government grew and moved into Whitehall,
Moved from where?
There was a process of centralisation over that period of the Civil
service for things like tax collection. Charles's statue just marked the
end of Whitehall, as Trafalgar Square didn't exist.
Another example is that the Met Police area was defined in statute by
reference to the distance in a straight line from Charing Cross in the
1839 Act. Charing Cross was not defined.
Post by John Williamson
Post by Roland Perry
Most of what you say has already been explored earlier in the thread.
The "London Allowance" however is a surprise, and I'd have expected it
to be based on boroughs, some of whose boundaries are indeed down the
middle of streets. Chorleywood, not far from Watford, being one example.
In this case, it was actually based on the distance from the region's
headquarters, which was Euston Station, (15 miles was the limit, and we
were a street's width outside. The office location had been chosen on
that basis, according to the more cynical of us.) presumably measured
from the buffers.
Pay board in the 60s/70s defined Inner London by ref to miles from ChX,
Outer London by civic boundaries.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Roland Perry
2019-09-15 06:58:40 UTC
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Post by Robin
Post by John Williamson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by John Williamson
I reckon treating Charles as the centre just arose out of "custom and
practice" as the Government grew and moved into Whitehall,
Moved from where?
There was a process of centralisation over that period of the Civil
service for things like tax collection. Charles's statue just marked
the end of Whitehall, as Trafalgar Square didn't exist.
Another example is that the Met Police area was defined in statute by
reference to the distance
Seven miles in the 1829 Act, extended to 15 miles.
Post by Robin
in a straight line from Charing Cross in the 1839 Act. Charing Cross
was not defined.
Not Charing Cross Police Station, which was only converted from a
Hospital in the 1970's (with Cannon Row and Bow St stations closing).

But plausibly close to 4 Whitehall Place which is where they first
started.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2019-09-15 06:15:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Williamson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by John Williamson
I reckon treating Charles as the centre just arose out of "custom and
practice" as the Government grew and moved into Whitehall,
Moved from where?
There was a process of centralisation over that period of the Civil
service for things like tax collection. Charles's statue just marked
the end of Whitehall, as Trafalgar Square didn't exist.
Interesting they should choose the site of the Eleanor Cross for that.
Could be worth exploring more. Or did the Eleanor Cross already mark the
edge of Whitehall, when that point was chosen as the penultimate
stopping point on the long trip back to Westminster. (eg 'pausing in the
wings', before making a grand entrance the next day)
Post by John Williamson
Post by Roland Perry
Most of what you say has already been explored earlier in the thread.
The "London Allowance" however is a surprise, and I'd have expected it
to be based on boroughs, some of whose boundaries are indeed down the
middle of streets. Chorleywood, not far from Watford, being one example.
In this case, it was actually based on the distance from the region's
headquarters, which was Euston Station, (15 miles was the limit, and we
were a street's width outside. The office location had been chosen on
that basis, according to the more cynical of us.) presumably measured
from the buffers.
The Union had "had words", but we were stuck with it. Rules is rules, innit?
If that was Reeds Crescent, I'd demand a recount. Google maps says it's
14.6 miles. 15m is more like the bus garage in Railway Terrace.
--
Roland Perry
John Williamson
2019-09-15 07:47:53 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
If that was Reeds Crescent, I'd demand a recount. Google maps says it's
14.6 miles. 15m is more like the bus garage in Railway Terrace.
Somewhat over 40 years ago now, but it was Clarendon Road. The block is
still there, but with a different occupier, and has had a revamp.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.
Roland Perry
2019-09-15 12:05:51 UTC
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Permalink
Post by John Williamson
Post by Roland Perry
If that was Reeds Crescent, I'd demand a recount. Google maps says it's
14.6 miles. 15m is more like the bus garage in Railway Terrace.
Somewhat over 40 years ago now, but it was Clarendon Road.
I'd still demand a recount. The *far* end of that road is 14.77 miles
from Euston Road (adjacent to the station) not even the buffers,
according to Google maps.
Post by John Williamson
The block is still there, but with a different occupier, and has had a
revamp.
On the west side, presumably. Meridien House? The rest looks too new to
qualify.
--
Roland Perry
John Williamson
2019-09-15 13:00:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
I'd still demand a recount. The *far* end of that road is 14.77 miles
from Euston Road (adjacent to the station) not even the buffers,
according to Google maps.
Whichever way it works out, the Union agreed with the management. And a
ten percent increase for the entire time I worked there wouldn't even
buy a decent meal now.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by John Williamson
The block is still there, but with a different occupier, and has had a
revamp.
On the west side, presumably. Meridien House? The rest looks too new to
qualify.
Dunno, I remember the entrance and block shape as being more like what
is now the Holiday Inn, and I know that chain have refurbished old
office blocks before. This would also be in line with the council's
plans for the area.

It was a concrete framed building with curtain walls, and they were
designed to have regular facelifts just by hanging new walls on them.
and the interior walls were most emphatically not load bearing. The
frame and lift core were specified to laST a century or more, but when
this was built in the '60s, it was known that fashions in building
appearances and interior layouts changed over time. When I was there, we
had single glazed steel windows and very thin walling between us and the
outside.

Wikilies says that Watford Junction is 17 miles 44 chains from the
buffers at Euston, so they may have been using rail miles, and I
misremembered the accusation about merely being on the wrong side of the
road.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.
Roland Perry
2019-09-15 13:56:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Williamson
Post by Roland Perry
I'd still demand a recount. The *far* end of that road is 14.77 miles
from Euston Road (adjacent to the station) not even the buffers,
according to Google maps.
Whichever way it works out, the Union agreed with the management. And a
ten percent increase for the entire time I worked there wouldn't even
buy a decent meal now.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by John Williamson
The block is still there, but with a different occupier, and has had a
revamp.
On the west side, presumably. Meridien House? The rest looks too new to
qualify.
Dunno, I remember the entrance and block shape as being more like what
is now the Holiday Inn, and I know that chain have refurbished old
office blocks before. This would also be in line with the council's
plans for the area.
Ditto the infamous office block across the road from Brentwood Station
where I worked in the 80's is now Premier Inn.
Post by John Williamson
It was a concrete framed building with curtain walls, and they were
designed to have regular facelifts just by hanging new walls on them.
and the interior walls were most emphatically not load bearing. The
frame and lift core were specified to laST a century or more, but when
this was built in the '60s, it was known that fashions in building
appearances and interior layouts changed over time. When I was there,
we had single glazed steel windows and very thin walling between us and
the outside.
Wikilies says that Watford Junction is 17 miles 44 chains from the
buffers at Euston, so they may have been using rail miles, and I
misremembered the accusation about merely being on the wrong side of
the road.
I did wonder if they were using railway miles to the adjacent station,
rather than crow-flies miles.
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2019-09-25 13:32:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
My recollection is that there were a surprisingly large number of them,
indeed you might even be able to get a custom one. I wonder what process
they used to produce them?
The ones I remember are the ones we used to order before going on holiday
in a new area.
Send them the required start and finish points, and you got a booklet of
strip maps, sort of like the ones that Autoroute could be told to print
out in its early days. They had written directions on them as well.
I think they were produced by using a standard set of route segments,
assembled by hand.
<Checks> Blimey,they still offer the service,but it's on line now.
Nowadays, you can print the text route (Including the signs to follow at
major junctions) yourself with an option to print a map of any confusing
sections.
Google Maps anyone?

No doubt other mapping services available

tim
John Williamson
2019-09-25 15:30:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
<AA route maps>
Post by tim...
Post by John Williamson
<Checks> Blimey,they still offer the service,but it's on line now.
Nowadays, you can print the text route (Including the signs to follow
at major junctions) yourself with an option to print a map of any
confusing sections.
Google Maps anyone?
No doubt other mapping services available
They are, but it's interesting that the AA still find it worthwhile to
maintain their own system even now.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.
tim...
2019-09-25 13:30:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
The AA used to produce a set of paper maps which were mostly black and
white but had red lines indicating the best driving route from the city
named on the front to every major town in Britain. Does anyone know what
they were called, because I can't find anything abut them on the web. I'd
like to know for how many different cities were these maps produced.
I still have a 1950 AA roadbook (with a few pages missing) and at the front
is a schematic of UK roads with red numbers on them indicating which driving
route uses that road

then there is a list of driving routes from various As to Bs

There is 830 of them

and as per a PP I remember when we were going on holiday my dad used to go
to the AA office (in Croydon) and have them print out a specific itinerary
for our destination - pity that we never kept any of them.

No idea how they managed this as I never went with him.

tim
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