Discussion:
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
(too old to reply)
Recliner
2019-10-22 08:49:40 UTC
Permalink
From:

<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>

One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.

The first service, which is due to start in May between London Gateway and
London Liverpool Street, is intended to help hauliers avoid the charges
from London’s Ultra-Low Emissions Zone (ULEZ), which was introduced this
year, and the congestion zone. It would also take traffic off the heavily
congested A13 that links the port near Thurrock in Essex to the capital.

A specialist rail engineering company, Rail Operations Group, is working
with DP World, the owner of London Gateway, to develop the low-emissions
scheme to compete with road hauliers to move consumer goods and freight
nearer to their final destination in London.

Karl Watts, ROG chief executive, said the response to its plans from
logistics companies and retailers had been “overwhelming,” although he
declined to name any customers that had signed up for the service.

Paul Orchard, ROG production director, said a series of different companies
— including logistics companies and retailers — were looking at
participating.

Heavy goods vehicles that fall short of the standards required for the ULEZ
have to pay a charge of £100 for each trip into the zone, which from April
this year mirrors the congestion-charging zone in central London. From
October 2021, Transport for London will extend ULEZ to cover the area
within the north and south circular roads.

Mr Orchard said road hauliers can face environmental charges of up to £200
on a return trip into the capital depending on timing and the type of
vehicle used. “The margins are in some cases wafer-thin,” Mr Orchard said
of road transport. “You start adding in an extra £200 . . . and that’s
enough to make rail competitive.”

ROG, which will offer the service under the “Orion” brand, plans to
initially run three round-trip rail services per day outside of peak hours.
It plans to use two converted, four-carriage trains that previously
operated the Thameslink cross-London passenger route.

The trains, due for delivery in May, are having their seats removed and
being fitted with diesel engines. The engines will generate power when the
train is not running on non-electrified lines, such as the freight sidings
at London Gateway. ROG estimates that each carriage on its trains will
carry around the same as a heavy truck.

Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.
Liverpool Street is the UK’s third-busiest station with 67m passengers
using it in the year to the end of March 2018.

ROG is looking to expand the service and is talking to customers about
other destinations, including possible overnight trains between London and
Scotland and from London to Bristol.

DP World confirmed it had held discussions with ROG about starting the
service. It said it was also talking to the Port of London Authority on
plans to use barges to move some goods to a site in Fulham, west London, by
river.
Roland Perry
2019-10-22 08:59:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.
Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years
ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them
distributed by electric vans?
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2019-10-22 09:13:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.
Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years
ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them
distributed by electric vans?
Wasn't one problem the then lack of electric vans, now not so much of a
problem?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2019-10-22 09:20:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be
distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.
Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of
years ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have
them distributed by electric vans?
Wasn't one problem the then lack of electric vans, now not so much of a
problem?
I didn't ever see an explanation. But the way it was originally
presented sounded very much like someone with a fleet of electric vans
having a solution looking for a problem to solve - which the overnight
inner-City parcel delivery from Euston was a candidate for.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-10-22 09:42:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be
distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.
Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of
years ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have
them distributed by electric vans?
Wasn't one problem the then lack of electric vans, now not so much of a
problem?
I didn't ever see an explanation. But the way it was originally
presented sounded very much like someone with a fleet of electric vans
having a solution looking for a problem to solve - which the overnight
inner-City parcel delivery from Euston was a candidate for.
I don't think anyone had a fleet of under-used electric vans back then.
Now, they're readily available, and the economic benefit from using them in
the ULEZ will be much greater.

<https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/e-nv200.html>

<https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/sep/17/arrival-time-how-the-white-van-went-green>

<https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/news/2019/levc-lcv-london-taxi-based-hybrid-delivery-van-revealed/>
Recliner
2019-10-22 09:58:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.
Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years
ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them
distributed by electric vans?
That was a one-off concept demonstration, back in June 2014. It was
organised by a consultancy (Intermodality) with Colas Rail and TNT. The
demo proved that the idea was workable, but my guess is that the economics
weren't favourable at the time. Things have obviously changed six years
later.
Roland Perry
2019-10-22 10:16:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.
Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years
ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them
distributed by electric vans?
That was a one-off concept demonstration, back in June 2014. It was
organised by a consultancy (Intermodality) with Colas Rail and TNT. The
demo proved that the idea was workable, but my guess is that the economics
weren't favourable at the time.
Economics is a very big component of "workable".
Post by Recliner
Things have obviously changed six years later.
Not necessarily. This could be just another concept demonstration.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-10-22 10:31:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.
Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years
ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them
distributed by electric vans?
That was a one-off concept demonstration, back in June 2014. It was
organised by a consultancy (Intermodality) with Colas Rail and TNT. The
demo proved that the idea was workable, but my guess is that the economics
weren't favourable at the time.
Economics is a very big component of "workable".
Not in most dictionaries.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Things have obviously changed six years later.
Not necessarily. This could be just another concept demonstration.
No it's not. The trains were ordered in January, and the service starts
next May.
Roland Perry
2019-10-22 10:50:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.
Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years
ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them
distributed by electric vans?
That was a one-off concept demonstration, back in June 2014. It was
organised by a consultancy (Intermodality) with Colas Rail and TNT. The
demo proved that the idea was workable, but my guess is that the economics
weren't favourable at the time.
Economics is a very big component of "workable".
Not in most dictionaries.
You can make almost anything "work" if you throw enough money at it.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Things have obviously changed six years later.
Not necessarily. This could be just another concept demonstration.
No it's not. The trains were ordered in January, and the service starts
next May.
Too far in the future to predict it won't get quietly dropped.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-10-22 11:13:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.
Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years
ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them
distributed by electric vans?
That was a one-off concept demonstration, back in June 2014. It was
organised by a consultancy (Intermodality) with Colas Rail and TNT. The
demo proved that the idea was workable, but my guess is that the economics
weren't favourable at the time.
Economics is a very big component of "workable".
Not in most dictionaries.
You can make almost anything "work" if you throw enough money at it.
Now you're just arguing for argument's sake.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Things have obviously changed six years later.
Not necessarily. This could be just another concept demonstration.
No it's not. The trains were ordered in January, and the service starts
next May.
Too far in the future to predict it won't get quietly dropped.
Hardly. The train order was placed ten months ago, not 'far in the future'.


My main reservation is that the work is being done by Wabtec (Brush)
Loughborough, which seems to be late with everything.
tim...
2019-10-22 11:45:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.
Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years
ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them
distributed by electric vans?
That was a one-off concept demonstration, back in June 2014. It was
organised by a consultancy (Intermodality) with Colas Rail and TNT. The
demo proved that the idea was workable, but my guess is that the economics
weren't favourable at the time.
Economics is a very big component of "workable".
Not in most dictionaries.
You can make almost anything "work" if you throw enough money at it.
Now you're just arguing for argument's sake.
its' what he does

you knew that already

tim
Roland Perry
2019-10-22 13:00:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Economics is a very big component of "workable".
Not in most dictionaries.
You can make almost anything "work" if you throw enough money at it.
Now you're just arguing for argument's sake.
Pointing out basic economics doesn't meet that definition.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Things have obviously changed six years later.
Not necessarily. This could be just another concept demonstration.
No it's not. The trains were ordered in January, and the service starts
next May.
Too far in the future to predict it won't get quietly dropped.
Hardly. The train order was placed ten months ago, not 'far in the future'.
Next May is too far in the future for us to predict today that it will
actually happen.
Post by Recliner
My main reservation is that the work is being done by Wabtec (Brush)
Loughborough, which seems to be late with everything.
I've recently been reading about 2014 ambitions for East-West rail (for
a discussion in another place). The one consistency is that pretty much
all the prerequisites upon which that plan was based have failed to
materialise either on time (eg Ely North junction by 2016, or other much
more significant projects like Crossrail) or at all (eg MML
electrification).

Rail industry vapourware is rampant.
--
Roland Perry
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2019-10-22 18:53:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.
Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years
ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them
distributed by electric vans?
That was a one-off concept demonstration, back in June 2014. It was
organised by a consultancy (Intermodality) with Colas Rail and TNT. The
demo proved that the idea was workable, but my guess is that the economics
weren't favourable at the time. Things have obviously changed six years
later.
Whatever happened with the pilot programme to move freight about
Amsterdam via tram?

There was also CarGo in Leipzig, which served the VW plant in the area.
I wonder if anybody is thinking of restarting that service or even
expanding it to serve other parts of town.
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2019-10-22 19:05:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be
distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.
Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years
ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them
distributed by electric vans?
That was a one-off concept demonstration, back in June 2014. It was
organised by a consultancy (Intermodality) with Colas Rail and TNT. The
demo proved that the idea was workable, but my guess is that the economics
weren't favourable at the time. Things have obviously changed six years
later.
Whatever happened with the pilot programme to move freight about
Amsterdam via tram?
There was also CarGo in Leipzig, which served the VW plant in the area.
I wonder if anybody is thinking of restarting that service or even
expanding it to serve other parts of town.
We can reintroduce prison trams as well:-
http://trippr.info/2018/02/07/look-back-sydneys-infamous-1909-prison-tram/
Graeme Wall
2019-10-22 09:12:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
The first service, which is due to start in May between London Gateway and
London Liverpool Street, is intended to help hauliers avoid the charges
from London’s Ultra-Low Emissions Zone (ULEZ), which was introduced this
year, and the congestion zone. It would also take traffic off the heavily
congested A13 that links the port near Thurrock in Essex to the capital.
A specialist rail engineering company, Rail Operations Group, is working
with DP World, the owner of London Gateway, to develop the low-emissions
scheme to compete with road hauliers to move consumer goods and freight
nearer to their final destination in London.
Karl Watts, ROG chief executive, said the response to its plans from
logistics companies and retailers had been “overwhelming,” although he
declined to name any customers that had signed up for the service.
Paul Orchard, ROG production director, said a series of different companies
— including logistics companies and retailers — were looking at
participating.
Heavy goods vehicles that fall short of the standards required for the ULEZ
have to pay a charge of £100 for each trip into the zone, which from April
this year mirrors the congestion-charging zone in central London. From
October 2021, Transport for London will extend ULEZ to cover the area
within the north and south circular roads.
Mr Orchard said road hauliers can face environmental charges of up to £200
on a return trip into the capital depending on timing and the type of
vehicle used. “The margins are in some cases wafer-thin,” Mr Orchard said
of road transport. “You start adding in an extra £200 . . . and that’s
enough to make rail competitive.”
ROG, which will offer the service under the “Orion” brand, plans to
initially run three round-trip rail services per day outside of peak hours.
It plans to use two converted, four-carriage trains that previously
operated the Thameslink cross-London passenger route.
The trains, due for delivery in May, are having their seats removed and
being fitted with diesel engines. The engines will generate power when the
train is not running on non-electrified lines, such as the freight sidings
at London Gateway. ROG estimates that each carriage on its trains will
carry around the same as a heavy truck.
Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.
Liverpool Street is the UK’s third-busiest station with 67m passengers
using it in the year to the end of March 2018.
ROG is looking to expand the service and is talking to customers about
other destinations, including possible overnight trains between London and
Scotland and from London to Bristol.
DP World confirmed it had held discussions with ROG about starting the
service. It said it was also talking to the Port of London Authority on
plans to use barges to move some goods to a site in Fulham, west London, by
river.
Then ship them up the Grand Union to Birmingham!
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2019-10-22 19:50:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
The first service, which is due to start in May between London Gateway and
London Liverpool Street, is intended to help hauliers avoid the charges
from London’s Ultra-Low Emissions Zone (ULEZ), which was introduced this
year, and the congestion zone. It would also take traffic off the heavily
congested A13 that links the port near Thurrock in Essex to the capital.
A specialist rail engineering company, Rail Operations Group, is working
with DP World, the owner of London Gateway, to develop the low-emissions
scheme to compete with road hauliers to move consumer goods and freight
nearer to their final destination in London.
Karl Watts, ROG chief executive, said the response to its plans from
logistics companies and retailers had been “overwhelming,” although he
declined to name any customers that had signed up for the service.
Paul Orchard, ROG production director, said a series of different companies
— including logistics companies and retailers — were looking at
participating.
Heavy goods vehicles that fall short of the standards required for the ULEZ
have to pay a charge of £100 for each trip into the zone, which from April
this year mirrors the congestion-charging zone in central London. From
October 2021, Transport for London will extend ULEZ to cover the area
within the north and south circular roads.
Mr Orchard said road hauliers can face environmental charges of up to £200
on a return trip into the capital depending on timing and the type of
vehicle used. “The margins are in some cases wafer-thin,” Mr Orchard said
of road transport. “You start adding in an extra £200 . . . and that’s
enough to make rail competitive.”
ROG, which will offer the service under the “Orion” brand, plans to
initially run three round-trip rail services per day outside of peak hours.
It plans to use two converted, four-carriage trains that previously
operated the Thameslink cross-London passenger route.
The trains, due for delivery in May, are having their seats removed and
being fitted with diesel engines. The engines will generate power when the
train is not running on non-electrified lines, such as the freight sidings
at London Gateway. ROG estimates that each carriage on its trains will
carry around the same as a heavy truck.
Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.
Liverpool Street is the UK’s third-busiest station with 67m passengers
using it in the year to the end of March 2018.
ROG is looking to expand the service and is talking to customers about
other destinations, including possible overnight trains between London and
Scotland and from London to Bristol.
DP World confirmed it had held discussions with ROG about starting the
service. It said it was also talking to the Port of London Authority on
plans to use barges to move some goods to a site in Fulham, west London, by
river.
Then ship them up the Grand Union to  Birmingham!
I've wondered whether the Grand Union or even the Caledonian could find
commercial use once again.

Perhaps the Regents Canal from Limehouse up to Paddington Station via
Little Venice? That would require an intermodal station, however.

Does Sweden's Göta Canal ever see any commercial traffic?
Roland Perry
2019-10-23 05:41:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segme
ntId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a
new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central
London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
The first service, which is due to start in May between London
Gateway and
London Liverpool Street, is intended to help hauliers avoid the charges
from London’s Ultra-Low Emissions Zone (ULEZ), which was introduced this
year, and the congestion zone. It would also take traffic off the heavily
congested A13 that links the port near Thurrock in Essex to the capital.
A specialist rail engineering company, Rail Operations Group, is working
with DP World, the owner of London Gateway, to develop the low-emissions
scheme to compete with road hauliers to move consumer goods and freight
nearer to their final destination in London.
Karl Watts, ROG chief executive, said the response to its plans from
logistics companies and retailers had been “overwhelming,” although he
declined to name any customers that had signed up for the service.
Paul Orchard, ROG production director, said a series of different companies
— including logistics companies and retailers — were looking at
participating.
Heavy goods vehicles that fall short of the standards required for
the ULEZ
have to pay a charge of £100 for each trip into the zone, which from April
this year mirrors the congestion-charging zone in central London. From
October 2021, Transport for London will extend ULEZ to cover the area
within the north and south circular roads.
Mr Orchard said road hauliers can face environmental charges of up
to £200
on a return trip into the capital depending on timing and the type of
vehicle used. “The margins are in some cases wafer-thin,” Mr Orchard said
of road transport. “You start adding in an extra £200?.?.?.?and
that’s
enough to make rail competitive.”
ROG, which will offer the service under the “Orion” brand, plans to
initially run three round-trip rail services per day outside of peak hours.
It plans to use two converted, four-carriage trains that previously
operated the Thameslink cross-London passenger route.
The trains, due for delivery in May, are having their seats removed and
being fitted with diesel engines. The engines will generate power
when the
train is not running on non-electrified lines, such as the freight sidings
at London Gateway. ROG estimates that each carriage on its trains will
carry around the same as a heavy truck.
Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.
Liverpool Street is the UK’s third-busiest station with 67m passengers
using it in the year to the end of March 2018.
ROG is looking to expand the service and is talking to customers about
other destinations, including possible overnight trains between
London and
Scotland and from London to Bristol.
DP World confirmed it had held discussions with ROG about starting the
service. It said it was also talking to the Port of London Authority on
plans to use barges to move some goods to a site in Fulham, west London, by
river.
Then ship them up the Grand Union to  Birmingham!
I've wondered whether the Grand Union or even the Caledonian could find
commercial use once again.
Perhaps the Regents Canal from Limehouse up to Paddington Station via
Little Venice? That would require an intermodal station, however.
Does Sweden's Göta Canal ever see any commercial traffic?
If the road hauliers are worried about their HGVs being banned, then
they could recruit OAPs (with Freedom cards) to hand-carry items from a
railhead near the M25. Brentwood to the east and Chorleywood to the
northwest. There's even a pub near each station where the OAPs could
gather while waiting for the HGVs to arrive.
--
Roland Perry
Robin9
2019-10-22 09:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Very interesting so thanks for that. I'm a little surprised that
there are spare train paths for additional trains along that
route. I would have guessed these trains were planned to run
during the night, but as the plan also envisages barges instead
of trains to Fulham, that seems unlikely. I recognise that Crossrail
will reduce the number of trains into Liverpool Street itself, but the
line between Forest Gate and Pudding Mill Lane will see no relief


--
Robin9
Recliner
2019-10-22 10:02:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin9
Very interesting so thanks for that. I'm a little surprised that
there are spare train paths for additional trains along that
route. I would have guessed these trains were planned to run
during the night, but as the plan also envisages barges instead
of trains to Fulham, that seems unlikely. I recognise that Crossrail
will reduce the number of trains into Liverpool Street itself, but the
line between Forest Gate and Pudding Mill Lane will see no relief.
It's probably not too hard to find three off-peak paths a day. These are
non-stopping 100 mph trains, so they could use the fast or slow lines.
David Walters
2019-10-22 12:26:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin9
Very interesting so thanks for that. I'm a little surprised that
there are spare train paths for additional trains along that
route. I would have guessed these trains were planned to run
during the night, but as the plan also envisages barges instead
of trains to Fulham, that seems unlikely. I recognise that Crossrail
will reduce the number of trains into Liverpool Street itself, but the
line between Forest Gate and Pudding Mill Lane will see no relief.
It's probably not too hard to find three off-peak paths a day. These are
non-stopping 100 mph trains, so they could use the fast or slow lines.
They seem to have found some:

Trains will leave London Gateway at 0029, 1208 and 1856,
returning from Liverpool Street at 0242, 1421 and 2100. They
will use Platforms 9 and 10.

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/exclusive-london-gateway-liverpool-street-freight-trial-planned
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2019-10-22 12:52:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Walters
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin9
Very interesting so thanks for that. I'm a little surprised that
there are spare train paths for additional trains along that
route. I would have guessed these trains were planned to run
during the night, but as the plan also envisages barges instead
of trains to Fulham, that seems unlikely. I recognise that Crossrail
will reduce the number of trains into Liverpool Street itself, but the
line between Forest Gate and Pudding Mill Lane will see no relief.
It's probably not too hard to find three off-peak paths a day. These are
non-stopping 100 mph trains, so they could use the fast or slow lines.
Trains will leave London Gateway at 0029, 1208 and 1856,
returning from Liverpool Street at 0242, 1421 and 2100. They
will use Platforms 9 and 10.
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/exclusive-london-gateway-liverpool-street-freight-trial-planned
How are they going to tansfer between train and road vehicle? I didn't
think there was any access for road vehicles to the platforms at
Liverpool Street railway station these days.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-10-22 13:35:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by David Walters
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin9
Very interesting so thanks for that. I'm a little surprised that
there are spare train paths for additional trains along that
route. I would have guessed these trains were planned to run
during the night, but as the plan also envisages barges instead
of trains to Fulham, that seems unlikely. I recognise that Crossrail
will reduce the number of trains into Liverpool Street itself, but the
line between Forest Gate and Pudding Mill Lane will see no relief.
It's probably not too hard to find three off-peak paths a day. These are
non-stopping 100 mph trains, so they could use the fast or slow lines.
Trains will leave London Gateway at 0029, 1208 and 1856,
returning from Liverpool Street at 0242, 1421 and 2100. They
will use Platforms 9 and 10.
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/exclusive-london-gateway-liverpool-street-freight-trial-planned
How are they going to tansfer between train and road vehicle? I didn't
think there was any access for road vehicles to the platforms at
Liverpool Street railway station these days.
The taxi rank used to be between platforms 10 and 11, at platform level.
ISTR seeing service vehicles in that area on a recent journey, so
presumably there’s still access.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Basil Jet
2019-10-24 12:01:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
The taxi rank used to be between platforms 10 and 11, at platform level.
ISTR seeing service vehicles in that area on a recent journey, so
presumably there’s still access.
There still is a taxi rank between platforms 10 & 11, at platform level.
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Tortoise - 2016 - The Catastrophist
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-10-24 14:56:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
The taxi rank used to be between platforms 10 and 11, at platform level.
ISTR seeing service vehicles in that area on a recent journey, so
presumably there’s still access.
There still is a taxi rank between platforms 10 & 11, at platform level.
Yes, I managed to miss the taxi logo on the NR website when I looked to
check platform numbers, and I posted before seeing Recliner(?)'s post
saying that the taxi rank is still in that location.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Graeme Wall
2019-10-22 10:47:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin9
Very interesting so thanks for that. I'm a little surprised that
there are spare train paths for additional trains along that
route. I would have guessed these trains were planned to run
during the night, but as the plan also envisages barges instead
of trains to Fulham, that seems unlikely. I recognise that Crossrail
will reduce the number of trains into Liverpool Street itself, but the
line between Forest Gate and Pudding Mill Lane will see no relief.
I wonder if the barges to Fulham idea is predicated on utilising the
empty return workings of the Cory (now Biffa) barges that bring rubbish
down river for incineration
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
tim...
2019-10-22 10:35:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual
"units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units
onto little trucks

What size of individual unit is this going to work for?

tim
Recliner
2019-10-22 10:47:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual
"units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units
onto little trucks
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Probably some sort of roll-on cages or containers that can get through the
train doors and on to electric vans. The cages may be towed as a train
along the platforms.

In the 2014 demonstration run:

The train was formed of former First Great Western motor-rail car carriers,
which are suitable for carrying traffic in roll cages; these had previously
been used for another trial with Stobart in 2012, delivering perishable
food for six Sainsbury’s stores.

For the latest trial, TNT delivered the roll cages to Colas Rail's Rugby
depot, where the transfer from road to rail took 20 min. After a 132 km
trip, the train arrived at Euston at 02.38, and the goods were transhipped
into a fleet of TNT electric and low-emission road vehicles in less than an
hour.

<https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/colas-rail-and-tnt-test-express-rail-logistics/39578.article>
Roland Perry
2019-10-22 12:38:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
The train was formed of former First Great Western motor-rail car carriers,
which are suitable for carrying traffic in roll cages; these had previously
been used for another trial with Stobart in 2012, delivering perishable
food for six Sainsbury’s stores.
There appear to be a series of such trials. Presumably the Stobart one
didn't result in a production service?
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2019-10-22 10:52:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Recliner
2019-10-22 11:11:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.
Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on
the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains.
They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address.
Graeme Wall
2019-10-22 11:34:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.
Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on
the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains.
They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address.
Sounds like just the project for Elon.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
tim...
2019-10-22 11:42:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.
Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on
the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains.
They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address.
you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort
of thing without the train involvement

tim
Marland
2019-10-22 14:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.
Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on
the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains.
They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address.
you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort
of thing without the train involvement
tim
The Ocado depot in Andover Hampshire burnt down early this possibly because
the fire precautions were not thought through enough, that withstanding the
publicity from the incident did show how far the technology of
autonomous sorting equipment has become and similar equipment is used
elsewhere.
video of the Ocado system here, it would not be inconceivable to think that
some of the units could be programmed to load themselves onto a truck or
train get taken to distribution point and once self driving vehicle
technology has developed complete the last leg though I imagine at first it
would be other warehouses.

Ocado before it burnt.



GH
Recliner
2019-10-22 16:08:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.
Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on
the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains.
They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address.
you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort
of thing without the train involvement
tim
The Ocado depot in Andover Hampshire burnt down early this possibly because
the fire precautions were not thought through enough, that withstanding the
publicity from the incident did show how far the technology of
autonomous sorting equipment has become and similar equipment is used
elsewhere.
video of the Ocado system here, it would not be inconceivable to think that
some of the units could be programmed to load themselves onto a truck or
train get taken to distribution point and once self driving vehicle
technology has developed complete the last leg though I imagine at first it
would be other warehouses.
Ocado before it burnt.
http://youtu.be/4DKrcpa8Z_E
Automated robots following tracks in flat factory floors aren't new, and
the Ocado ones run in a segregated environment where they don't have to
steer clear of people or other vehicles. Extrapolating that to the general
problem of operating in a public space, where they have to self-navigate
around people and other vehicles, across curbs and bumpy surfaces, obeying
traffic lights, etc is a difficult problem whose solution isn't imminent.
Level 5 autonomous cars are certainly more than a decade away, perhaps much
more.
Graeme Wall
2019-10-22 16:22:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Marland
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.
Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on
the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains.
They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address.
you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort
of thing without the train involvement
tim
The Ocado depot in Andover Hampshire burnt down early this possibly because
the fire precautions were not thought through enough, that withstanding the
publicity from the incident did show how far the technology of
autonomous sorting equipment has become and similar equipment is used
elsewhere.
video of the Ocado system here, it would not be inconceivable to think that
some of the units could be programmed to load themselves onto a truck or
train get taken to distribution point and once self driving vehicle
technology has developed complete the last leg though I imagine at first it
would be other warehouses.
Ocado before it burnt.
http://youtu.be/4DKrcpa8Z_E
Automated robots following tracks in flat factory floors aren't new,
The first ones were in the late 1960s IIRC.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
tim...
2019-10-22 16:55:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Automated robots following tracks in flat factory floors aren't new, and
the Ocado ones run in a segregated environment where they don't have to
steer clear of people or other vehicles. Extrapolating that to the general
problem of operating in a public space, where they have to self-navigate
around people and other vehicles, across curbs and bumpy surfaces, obeying
traffic lights, etc is a difficult problem whose solution isn't imminent.
Some of the "inside the factory" series have shown robot vehicles moving
around freely (obviously to some pre-programmed destination) and stopping
for people who get in their way

Cherry and Greg almost wet themselves at how exciting this technology is :-)
[1]

Can't remember which ones

tim

[1] Sorry that's an in joke from elsewhere
Marland
2019-10-22 22:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Marland
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.
Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on
the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains.
They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address.
you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort
of thing without the train involvement
tim
The Ocado depot in Andover Hampshire burnt down early this possibly because
the fire precautions were not thought through enough, that withstanding the
publicity from the incident did show how far the technology of
autonomous sorting equipment has become and similar equipment is used
elsewhere.
video of the Ocado system here, it would not be inconceivable to think that
some of the units could be programmed to load themselves onto a truck or
train get taken to distribution point and once self driving vehicle
technology has developed complete the last leg though I imagine at first it
would be other warehouses.
Ocado before it burnt.
http://youtu.be/4DKrcpa8Z_E
Automated robots following tracks in flat factory floors aren't new, and
the Ocado ones run in a segregated environment where they don't have to
steer clear of people or other vehicles. Extrapolating that to the general
problem of operating in a public space, where they have to self-navigate
around people and other vehicles, across curbs and bumpy surfaces, obeying
traffic lights, etc is a difficult problem whose solution isn't imminent.
Level 5 autonomous cars are certainly more than a decade away, perhaps much
more.
Have no argument with the long development time for autonomous vehicles
which is why I added the caveat
of first use could be to other warehouses ,which might be the store for a
large supermarket and further replace
the need for human staff

As it happens the system used by Ocado is little more sophisticated than a
flat factory floor in that the storage baskets are stacked several tiers
vertically, as well horizontally and the system stores items less in
demand at the bottom. And while it may be a controlled environment they do
have to avoid each other.

I wouldn’t expect to see anything like them roam free in public space
anytime soon but was more using them as an example that the late Mr Bells
idea of self loading cargo pods might not be so outlandish though not on a
super gauge railway.


GH
Recliner
2019-10-22 22:56:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Recliner
Post by Marland
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.
Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on
the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains.
They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address.
you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort
of thing without the train involvement
tim
The Ocado depot in Andover Hampshire burnt down early this possibly because
the fire precautions were not thought through enough, that withstanding the
publicity from the incident did show how far the technology of
autonomous sorting equipment has become and similar equipment is used
elsewhere.
video of the Ocado system here, it would not be inconceivable to think that
some of the units could be programmed to load themselves onto a truck or
train get taken to distribution point and once self driving vehicle
technology has developed complete the last leg though I imagine at first it
would be other warehouses.
Ocado before it burnt.
http://youtu.be/4DKrcpa8Z_E
Automated robots following tracks in flat factory floors aren't new, and
the Ocado ones run in a segregated environment where they don't have to
steer clear of people or other vehicles. Extrapolating that to the general
problem of operating in a public space, where they have to self-navigate
around people and other vehicles, across curbs and bumpy surfaces, obeying
traffic lights, etc is a difficult problem whose solution isn't imminent.
Level 5 autonomous cars are certainly more than a decade away, perhaps much
more.
Have no argument with the long development time for autonomous vehicles
which is why I added the caveat
of first use could be to other warehouses ,which might be the store for a
large supermarket and further replace
the need for human staff
As it happens the system used by Ocado is little more sophisticated than a
flat factory floor in that the storage baskets are stacked several tiers
vertically, as well horizontally and the system stores items less in
demand at the bottom. And while it may be a controlled environment they do
have to avoid each other.
Which is a lot easier than avoiding random pedestrians, cyclists, dogs,
cars, buses, etc.
Post by Marland
I wouldn’t expect to see anything like them roam free in public space
anytime soon but was more using them as an example that the late Mr Bells
idea of self loading cargo pods might not be so outlandish though not on a
super gauge railway.
I think Michael's grand vision in this area was based on a number of
individually feasible, or at least theoretically possible, elements, but
collectively it was far from practical. That was true of many of his grand
plans, which generally weren't based on impossible science. One rare
exception was his strange belief that taller high speed trains would be
more stable than squatter ones.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-10-22 11:29:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.
Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
His were autonomous, weren’t they? Were they 2' gauge or were they
rubber-tyred? I don’t remember.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Recliner
2019-10-22 11:40:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.
Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
His were autonomous, weren’t they? Were they 2' gauge or were they
rubber-tyred? I don’t remember.
Rubber-tyred, able to self-unload from the convertible upper deck of his
3-3+3-3 trains, then drive themselves on public roads to the customers'
premises.
tim...
2019-10-22 11:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets
the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple
of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat
wagons for that
Post by Graeme Wall
and wheeled cages,
wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly
loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles
on the ship.

That seems a little bit too much organisation to me
Post by Graeme Wall
think updated BRUTES.
I have no idea what BRUTES is
Post by Graeme Wall
Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib

how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?

and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me that
the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??

OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck!

tim
Recliner
2019-10-22 11:47:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets
the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted
and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple
of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat
wagons for that
Post by Graeme Wall
and wheeled cages,
wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly
loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles
on the ship.
No, the parcel forwarder will open the containers and fill the cages,
presumably at a new depot near the port.

That's no different to now, except that the cages will be brought into
central London by electric train, not a fleet of diesel tracks and vans.
Post by tim...
That seems a little bit too much organisation to me
Post by Graeme Wall
think updated BRUTES.
I have no idea what BRUTES is
Post by Graeme Wall
Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib
It's a starting point. As the story says, they have ambitions for more.
Post by tim...
how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?
and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me that
the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??
OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck!
Each train carriage will replace an HGV. So one train replaces eight HGVs
into central London, so 24/day.
Graeme Wall
2019-10-22 11:53:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets
the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted
and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd
need flat wagons for that
Post by Graeme Wall
and wheeled cages,
wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages
transported 6000 miles on the ship.
No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone
else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get
broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual
cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the
depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it
involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. However with the
increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it
could well be economically feasible. The alternative would be to utilise
electric lorries from the depot in the first place.
Post by tim...
That seems a little bit too much organisation to me
Post by Graeme Wall
think updated BRUTES.
I have no idea what BRUTES is
Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment,
wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at
major stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star).
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib
how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?
and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me
that the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??
They don't all get delivered to one port. A better idea of throughput is
that each crane can shift up to 400 containers per shift, with three or
four cranes per vessel. Figure derived from a doco on Southampton
Container Port a few years back. 400 is the upper end of practicality,
350 per shift would be more normal.
Post by tim...
OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck!
Full containers would still continue by train and lorry to inland
container ports.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2019-10-22 12:49:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets
the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted
and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd
need flat wagons for that
Post by Graeme Wall
and wheeled cages,
wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages
transported 6000 miles on the ship.
No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone
else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get
broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual
cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the
depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it
involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. However with the
increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it
could well be economically feasible. The alternative would be to utilise
electric lorries from the depot in the first place.
Post by tim...
That seems a little bit too much organisation to me
Post by Graeme Wall
think updated BRUTES.
I have no idea what BRUTES is
Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment,
wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at
major stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star).
There were also placed onto trains, sometimes into the guards' van or
more commonly onto dedicated trains. Ramps were provided but this could
be achieved without.

There are still one or two modified BUTES around but they're now used
for other purposes.
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib
how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?
and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me
that the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??
They don't all get delivered to one port. A better idea of throughput is
that each crane can shift up to 400 containers per shift, with three or
four cranes per vessel. Figure derived from a doco on Southampton
Container Port a few years back. 400 is the upper end of practicality,
350 per shift would be more normal.
Post by tim...
OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck!
Full containers would still continue by train and lorry to inland
container ports.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-10-22 13:34:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets
the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted
and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd
need flat wagons for that
Post by Graeme Wall
and wheeled cages,
wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages
transported 6000 miles on the ship.
No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone
else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get
broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual
cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the
depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it
involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. However with the
increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it
could well be economically feasible. The alternative would be to utilise
electric lorries from the depot in the first place.
Post by tim...
That seems a little bit too much organisation to me
Post by Graeme Wall
think updated BRUTES.
I have no idea what BRUTES is
Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment,
wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at
major stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star).
There were also placed onto trains, sometimes into the guards' van or
more commonly onto dedicated trains. Ramps were provided but this could
be achieved without.
There are still one or two modified BUTES around but they're now used
for other purposes.
Different cages and different trains but the same concept - I remember
watching a postal train call at Cardiff in the last few months before the
service was curtailed - the speed and agility with which the staff loaded
the 'York'(?) trolleys onto the train was very impressive, particularly
considering they had to use a ramp with a 90° angle (and a turntable!) due
to the limited platform width.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2019-10-22 15:02:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets
the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted
and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd
need flat wagons for that
Post by Graeme Wall
and wheeled cages,
wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages
transported 6000 miles on the ship.
No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone
else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get
broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual
cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the
depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it
involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. However with the
increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it
could well be economically feasible. The alternative would be to utilise
electric lorries from the depot in the first place.
Post by tim...
That seems a little bit too much organisation to me
Post by Graeme Wall
think updated BRUTES.
I have no idea what BRUTES is
Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment,
wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at
major stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star).
There were also placed onto trains, sometimes into the guards' van or
more commonly onto dedicated trains. Ramps were provided but this could
be achieved without.
There are still one or two modified BUTES around but they're now used
for other purposes.
Different cages and different trains but the same concept - I remember
watching a postal train call at Cardiff in the last few months before the
service was curtailed - the speed and agility with which the staff loaded
the 'York'(?) trolleys onto the train was very impressive, particularly
considering they had to use a ramp with a 90° angle (and a turntable!) due
to the limited platform width.
The signs showing the locations for destinations on the mail and parcel
trains are still located on Temple Meads railway station. I often
wonder if they are included in the listed status of the station.
tim...
2019-10-22 14:39:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets
the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted
and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd
need flat wagons for that
Post by Graeme Wall
and wheeled cages,
wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages
transported 6000 miles on the ship.
No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone
else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get
broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual
cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the
depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it
involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. However with the
increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it
could well be economically feasible. The alternative would be to utilise
electric lorries from the depot in the first place.
Post by tim...
That seems a little bit too much organisation to me
Post by Graeme Wall
think updated BRUTES.
I have no idea what BRUTES is
Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment,
wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at major
stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star).
There were also placed onto trains, sometimes into the guards' van or more
commonly onto dedicated trains. Ramps were provided but this could be
achieved without.
There are still one or two modified BUTES around but they're now used for
other purposes.
flower displays :-)

tim
Marland
2019-10-22 16:18:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets
the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted
and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd
need flat wagons for that
Post by Graeme Wall
and wheeled cages,
wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages
transported 6000 miles on the ship.
No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone
else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get
broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual
cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the
depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it
involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. However with the
increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it
could well be economically feasible. The alternative would be to utilise
electric lorries from the depot in the first place.
Post by tim...
That seems a little bit too much organisation to me
Post by Graeme Wall
think updated BRUTES.
I have no idea what BRUTES is
Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment,
wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at major
stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star).
There were also placed onto trains, sometimes into the guards' van or more
commonly onto dedicated trains. Ramps were provided but this could be
achieved without.
There are still one or two modified BUTES around but they're now used for
other purposes.
flower displays :-)
tim
They used to make good extra seating when left on platforms.


GH
tim...
2019-10-22 14:39:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets
the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted
and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd
need flat wagons for that
Post by Graeme Wall
and wheeled cages,
wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages
transported 6000 miles on the ship.
No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone
else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get
broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual cage-loads
for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the depot to the
customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it involves an extra
handling phase, depot - train - van.
I still can't get my head around, that it's not two extra steps
Post by Graeme Wall
However with the increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major
city centres it could well be economically feasible.
Yes I can see that.

The question is "will it?" (rhetorical.)
Post by Graeme Wall
The alternative would be to utilise electric lorries from the depot in the
first place.
Post by tim...
That seems a little bit too much organisation to me
Post by Graeme Wall
think updated BRUTES.
I have no idea what BRUTES is
Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment,
wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at major
stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star).
Oh I know what you mean now, Never knew the name though.
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib
how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?
and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me
that the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??
They don't all get delivered to one port.
Oh OK.

tim
Graeme Wall
2019-10-22 15:43:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by
individual units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets
the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted
and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd
need flat wagons for that
Post by Graeme Wall
and wheeled cages,
wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages
transported 6000 miles on the ship.
No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone
else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations
get broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual
cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the
depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it
involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van.
I still can't get my head around, that it's not two extra steps
One step: depot to van

Two steps, depot to train to van
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
However with the increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in
major city centres it could well be economically feasible.
Yes I can see that.
The question is "will it?" (rhetorical.)
The $64,000 question.
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
The alternative would be to utilise electric lorries from the depot in
the first place.
Post by tim...
That seems a little bit too much organisation to me
Post by Graeme Wall
think updated BRUTES.
I have no idea what BRUTES is
Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility
Equipment, wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common
sight at major stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star).
Oh I know what you mean now,  Never knew the name though.
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib
how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?
and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells
me that the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??
They don't all get delivered to one port.
Oh OK.
The ship will continue on, most likely to Antwerp or Rotterdam if
eastbound, to make further deliveries.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-10-22 12:43:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets
the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted
and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple
of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat
wagons for that
You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one of
these?

<Loading Image...>
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
and wheeled cages,
wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly
loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles
on the ship.
That seems a little bit too much organisation to me
Post by Graeme Wall
think updated BRUTES.
I have no idea what BRUTES is
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Universal_Trolley_Equipment>
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib
how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?
Going from the OP, I’d guess 12 per day, or 24 if they’re running both
units together. And if it’s successful, scope for more.
Post by tim...
and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me that
the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??
OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck!
Plenty get transported around the country by train; plenty more won’t be
carrying stuff which needs to go to city centres.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
tim...
2019-10-22 14:43:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets
the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted
and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple
of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat
wagons for that
You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one of
these?
<https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg>
yeah, In an earlier life I occasionally got to "drive" one

but I think their load is far more limited compared with a fork lift

And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
and wheeled cages,
wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly
loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles
on the ship.
That seems a little bit too much organisation to me
Post by Graeme Wall
think updated BRUTES.
I have no idea what BRUTES is
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Universal_Trolley_Equipment>
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib
how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?
Going from the OP, I’d guess 12 per day, or 24 if they’re running both
units together. And if it’s successful, scope for more.
Post by tim...
and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me that
the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??
OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck!
Plenty get transported around the country by train;
Yes I know, I was being awkward

:-)

tim
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-10-22 15:41:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets
the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted
and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple
of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat
wagons for that
You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one of
these?
<https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg>
yeah, In an earlier life I occasionally got to "drive" one
but I think their load is far more limited compared with a fork lift
2.5 tonnes according to the various images at the top of the first page of
a google search.
Post by tim...
And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack
How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage?


Anna Noyd-Dryver
tim...
2019-10-22 16:30:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack
How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage?
more than one

tim
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-10-22 18:46:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack
How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage?
more than one
The pallets I’ve seen on supermarket shop floors are stacked to about 6
feet high and wrapped in shrink wrap. I didn’t realise 769s had 12 foot
internal headroom...


Anna Noyd-Dryver
tim...
2019-10-23 07:08:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack
How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage?
more than one
The pallets I’ve seen on supermarket shop floors are stacked to about 6
feet high and wrapped in shrink wrap. I didn’t realise 769s had 12 foot
internal headroom...
from personal experience:

you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven
thingy

you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Anna Noyd-Dryver
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2019-10-23 07:17:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack
How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage?
more than one
The pallets I’ve seen on supermarket shop floors are stacked to about 6
feet high and wrapped in shrink wrap. I didn’t realise 769s had 12 foot
internal headroom...
you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand
driven thingy
you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top
Tell that to Asda. Our local one has been re-fitted with their extra
high shelves and I'm forever being asked to reach items from the top one.
tim...
2019-10-23 08:26:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack
How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage?
more than one
The pallets I’ve seen on supermarket shop floors are stacked to about 6
feet high and wrapped in shrink wrap. I didn’t realise 769s had 12 foot
internal headroom...
you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand
driven thingy
you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top
Tell that to Asda. Our local one has been re-fitted with their extra high
shelves and I'm forever being asked to reach items from the top one.
That's a bit different from trying to push and steer a few hundredweight of
pallet around the store, isn't it?

As an aside, the 2.5 tonnes that (we have been told) these things can move
is never going to be likely in a manual loaded environment. With a 20 kg
personal lifting limit that's 100+ boxes per load.

Manually loading 100 boxes onto a single pallet repeatedly, just ain't gonna
happen


tim
Graeme Wall
2019-10-23 09:10:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by tim...
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack
How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage?
more than one
The pallets I’ve seen on supermarket shop floors are stacked to about 6
feet high and wrapped in shrink wrap. I didn’t realise 769s had 12 foot
internal headroom...
you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand
driven thingy
you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top
Tell that to Asda.  Our local one has been re-fitted with their extra
high shelves and I'm forever being asked to reach items from the top one.
That's a bit different from trying to push and steer a few hundredweight
of pallet around the store, isn't it?
As an aside, the 2.5 tonnes that (we have been told) these things can
move is never going to be likely in a manual loaded environment.  With a
20 kg personal lifting limit that's 100+ boxes per load.
Manually loading 100 boxes onto a single pallet repeatedly, just ain't
gonna happen
You are assuming they will be loaded manually.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
tim...
2019-10-23 10:07:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Manually loading 100 boxes onto a single pallet repeatedly, just ain't
gonna happen
You are assuming they will be loaded manually.
I thought we'd established that's the MO here

tim
Graeme Wall
2019-10-23 10:13:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Manually loading 100 boxes onto a single pallet repeatedly, just
ain't gonna happen
You are assuming they will be loaded manually.
I thought we'd established that's the MO here
Depends how the are loaded into the container at origin, could already
be palletised. Automatic loading of individual items onto pallets is
also possible but the latter are more likely to loaded into cages which
are already in use so they have to loaded somehow.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-10-31 08:19:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack
How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage?
more than one
The pallets I’ve seen on supermarket shop floors are stacked to about 6
feet high and wrapped in shrink wrap. I didn’t realise 769s had 12 foot
internal headroom...
you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven
thingy
you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top
Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my
local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays
containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to
keep it together.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Roland Perry
2019-10-31 08:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven
thingy
you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top
Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my
local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays
containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to
keep it together.
I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when
it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when
they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the
aisle.
--
Roland Perry
Charles Ellson
2019-11-01 03:15:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven
thingy
you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top
Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my
local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays
containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to
keep it together.
I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when
it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when
they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the
aisle.
Sounds like various ASDA branches at 3am (but with more leisurely
pallet moving).
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2019-11-01 20:10:48 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:07 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven
thingy
you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top
Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my
local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays
containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to
keep it together.
I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when
it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when
they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the
aisle.
Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful shitholes.
Jeremy Double
2019-11-01 20:25:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:07 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven
thingy
you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top
Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my
local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays
containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to
keep it together.
I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when
it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when
they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the
aisle.
Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful shitholes.
Aldi do very good 70% dark chocolate, in packs of 5 small
individually-wrapped bars.
--
Jeremy Double
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2019-11-01 21:05:37 UTC
Permalink
On 1 Nov 2019 20:25:15 GMT
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:07 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand
driven
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
thingy
you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top
Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my
local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays
containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to
keep it together.
I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when
it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when
they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the
aisle.
Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful shitholes.
Aldi do very good 70% dark chocolate, in packs of 5 small
individually-wrapped bars.
Probably in high strength plastic so the chavs can't munch on them before
they've got to the till.
Jeremy Double
2019-11-01 21:45:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On 1 Nov 2019 20:25:15 GMT
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:07 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand
driven
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
thingy
you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top
Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my
local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays
containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to
keep it together.
I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when
it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when
they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the
aisle.
Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful shitholes.
Aldi do very good 70% dark chocolate, in packs of 5 small
individually-wrapped bars.
Probably in high strength plastic so the chavs can't munch on them before
they've got to the till.
No, packed in card, so they look like a 100 (ish) g bar of chocolate.
--
Jeremy Double
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-11-01 22:12:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On 1 Nov 2019 20:25:15 GMT
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:07 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand
driven
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
thingy
you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top
Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my
local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays
containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to
keep it together.
I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when
it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when
they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the
aisle.
Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful shitholes.
Aldi do very good 70% dark chocolate, in packs of 5 small
individually-wrapped bars.
Probably in high strength plastic so the chavs can't munch on them before
they've got to the till.
If it's the one I'm thinking of it's in cardboard and foil-paper.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-11-01 22:12:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:07 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven
thingy
you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top
Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my
local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays
containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to
keep it together.
I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when
it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when
they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the
aisle.
Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful shitholes.
Decent produce (some things really good, particularly ham and gin) for
cheap prices; efficient staff who look like they work hard; free
electricity at Lidl :)


Anna Noyd-Dryver
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2019-11-02 12:41:10 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 22:12:44 -0000 (UTC)
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:07 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand
driven
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
thingy
you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top
Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my
local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays
containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to
keep it together.
I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when
it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when
they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the
aisle.
Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful shitholes.
Decent produce (some things really good, particularly ham and gin) for
Would that be the bright pink with more nitrates than a fertiliser lorry
and made by some german company you've never heard of ham?
Post by tim...
cheap prices; efficient staff who look like they work hard; free
electricity at Lidl :)
Do they have a special carrier bag for that then?
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-11-02 21:19:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 22:12:44 -0000 (UTC)
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:07 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand
driven
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
thingy
you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top
Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my
local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays
containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to
keep it together.
I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when
it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when
they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the
aisle.
Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful shitholes.
Decent produce (some things really good, particularly ham and gin) for
Would that be the bright pink with more nitrates than a fertiliser lorry
and made by some german company you've never heard of ham?
Aldi do a range of Italian-style hams which are particularly tasty.
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by tim...
cheap prices; efficient staff who look like they work hard; free
electricity at Lidl :)
Do they have a special carrier bag for that then?
Pod Point chargers in the car park of a number of stores.

Incidentally if you have a vehicle-to-property system installed you could
actually use this to power your house.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Arthur Conan Doyle
2019-11-02 01:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful shitholes.
I truely do not understand why they are so popular. They mostly sell a
combination of Poundland size packages and generic products. I can do equally as
well with careful selection at Tesco or Morrisons and get much higher quality
product.
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2019-11-02 01:44:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful shitholes.
I truely do not understand why they are so popular. They mostly sell a
combination of Poundland size packages and generic products. I can do equally as
well with careful selection at Tesco or Morrisons and get much higher quality
product.
I use Aldi regularly as one is very close. I find the quality of their
products much better than Tesco, and once you know the layout you can
get in and out very quickly.

Morrisons has the advantage that their products in Market Street are
excellent and beat the quality of the other supermarkets I have access to.

Tesco is my supermarket of last resort but is conveniently between home
and my local railway station so the facilities can be useful.
Roland Perry
2019-11-02 06:40:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful shitholes.
I truely do not understand why they are so popular. They mostly sell
a combination of Poundland size packages and generic products. I can
do equally as well with careful selection at Tesco or Morrisons and
get much higher quality product.
I use Aldi regularly as one is very close. I find the quality of their
products much better than Tesco, and once you know the layout you can
get in and out very quickly.
Yes, the quality of heir produce is excellent, just as long as you
realise that for food "you get what you pay for". So a steak priced at
£3 is going to be chewier than one priced at £5, but you'd have to pay
£7 for the latter at other stores.
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Morrisons has the advantage that their products in Market Street are
excellent and beat the quality of the other supermarkets I have access to.
Morrisons is perhaps the closest rival, but the nearest to me are an
hours drive away. (See also thread about those mail order lockers at
Morrisons/Railway stations).
--
Roland Perry
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2019-11-02 12:42:54 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 01:44:29 +0000
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful shitholes.
I truely do not understand why they are so popular. They mostly sell a
combination of Poundland size packages and generic products. I can do
equally as
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
well with careful selection at Tesco or Morrisons and get much higher quality
product.
I use Aldi regularly as one is very close. I find the quality of their
products much better than Tesco, and once you know the layout you can
get in and out very quickly.
They don't have a layout, they just have pallets straight of the lorry
arranged in rows. Thats not a supermarket, its a distribution centre.
But then Costco is also popular so each to their own I suppose.
Roland Perry
2019-11-02 13:13:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 01:44:29 +0000
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful shitholes.
I truely do not understand why they are so popular. They mostly sell a
combination of Poundland size packages and generic products. I can do
equally as
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
well with careful selection at Tesco or Morrisons and get much higher quality
product.
I use Aldi regularly as one is very close. I find the quality of their
products much better than Tesco, and once you know the layout you can
get in and out very quickly.
They don't have a layout, they just have pallets straight of the lorry
arranged in rows.
I do love it when someone proves they've never seen what it is they
claim to be talking about.
--
Roland Perry
Jeremy Double
2019-11-02 13:50:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 01:44:29 +0000
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful shitholes.
I truely do not understand why they are so popular. They mostly sell a
combination of Poundland size packages and generic products. I can do
equally as
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
well with careful selection at Tesco or Morrisons and get much higher quality
product.
I use Aldi regularly as one is very close. I find the quality of their
products much better than Tesco, and once you know the layout you can
get in and out very quickly.
They don't have a layout, they just have pallets straight of the lorry
arranged in rows.
I do love it when someone proves they've never seen what it is they
claim to be talking about.
Ah yes, the Dunning-Kruger effect.
--
Jeremy Double
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2019-11-02 16:22:18 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 13:13:53 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 01:44:29 +0000
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful shitholes.
I truely do not understand why they are so popular. They mostly sell a
combination of Poundland size packages and generic products. I can do
equally as
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
well with careful selection at Tesco or Morrisons and get much higher quality
product.
I use Aldi regularly as one is very close. I find the quality of their
products much better than Tesco, and once you know the layout you can
get in and out very quickly.
They don't have a layout, they just have pallets straight of the lorry
arranged in rows.
I do love it when someone proves they've never seen what it is they
claim to be talking about.
I must have imagined seeing exactly that then every time I go into my
local Lidl.
Roland Perry
2019-11-02 16:34:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
I use Aldi regularly as one is very close. I find the quality of their
products much better than Tesco, and once you know the layout you can
get in and out very quickly.
They don't have a layout, they just have pallets straight of the lorry
arranged in rows.
I do love it when someone proves they've never seen what it is they
claim to be talking about.
I must have imagined seeing exactly that then every time I go into my
local Lidl.
There's an Aldi inside your local Lidl?
--
Roland Perry
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2019-11-02 13:25:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 01:44:29 +0000
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful shitholes.
I truely do not understand why they are so popular. They mostly sell a
combination of Poundland size packages and generic products. I can do
equally as
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
well with careful selection at Tesco or Morrisons and get much higher quality
product.
I use Aldi regularly as one is very close. I find the quality of their
products much better than Tesco, and once you know the layout you can
get in and out very quickly.
They don't have a layout, they just have pallets straight of the lorry
arranged in rows. Thats not a supermarket, its a distribution centre.
But then Costco is also popular so each to their own I suppose.
They do have a layout which is almost identical in all their stores
although some can be left to right.
Roland Perry
2019-11-02 14:47:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
I use Aldi regularly as one is very close. I find the quality of their
products much better than Tesco, and once you know the layout you can
get in and out very quickly.
They don't have a layout, they just have pallets straight of the
lorry arranged in rows. Thats not a supermarket, its a distribution
centre. But then Costco is also popular so each to their own I suppose.
They do have a layout which is almost identical in all their stores
although some can be left to right.
Probably so that the vegetable aisle is ahead of you when you go in the
front door. This seems to be an article of faith in all supermarkets for
as long as I can remember.

In my local Aldi this means it's on the left, and the next nearest, on
the right.
--
Roland Perry
Marland
2019-11-02 13:54:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 01:44:29 +0000
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful shitholes.
I truely do not understand why they are so popular. They mostly sell a
combination of Poundland size packages and generic products. I can do
equally as
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
well with careful selection at Tesco or Morrisons and get much higher quality
product.
I use Aldi regularly as one is very close. I find the quality of their
products much better than Tesco, and once you know the layout you can
get in and out very quickly.
They don't have a layout, they just have pallets straight of the lorry
arranged in rows. Thats not a supermarket, its a distribution centre.
They used to be a bit like that with poor lighting to boot, but at least
the tills and staff were very fast
and Waitrose Woman and Muddling Man stayed out of the places as they felt
intimidated by the need to move items back into the trolley and do packing
into their bags on the shelf provided.
And where else could you nip in somewhere with a free car park to to buy
something to eat and end up walking out with a welder, or as a mate of mine
did while we helped move him into a house, Nipped out to Aldi to get us
something to eat. “thought you’d want something hot” So he bought some pies
etc and a Microwave to heat them with.

Unfortunately they have gone up market as they have been discovered and the
packing on the shelf habit is waning , I think they were at their best
about 10 years ago when they stopped looking like shop in the third world
and got some lighting and some shelves in but prices were still a bargain.

Now with the latest refurbishments they look much like any other
supermarket, unfortunately prices are not the bargain they once were though
some of the offers of interesting bits can still be keenly priced.
That the longer established names can beat them sometimes onitems is as
much them having to match some of their prices to keep market share.

If you haven’t ventured into an updated one you would not know but if you
have and still think it looks like a distribution centre ask someone to
look and see if they have some of their paint on offer and guide you to it,
its quite good stuff and the most common colour is white . Buy some and
paint a stick with it.

GH
Roland Perry
2019-11-02 14:52:09 UTC
Permalink
In message <***@mid.individual.net>, at 13:54:27 on Sat, 2 Nov
2019, Marland <***@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:

[Aldi]
Post by Marland
Unfortunately they have gone up market as they have been discovered and the
packing on the shelf habit is waning
I blame the rise of re-usable shopping bags. The most common scheme I
see deployed is from till into one or more of such bags propped open
inside the trolley. Which is noticeably slower (for the till operator
and the queue) than bunging it all back in the trolley and using the
packing shelf.
--
Roland Perry
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2019-11-02 16:26:27 UTC
Permalink
On 2 Nov 2019 13:54:27 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 01:44:29 +0000
They don't have a layout, they just have pallets straight of the lorry
arranged in rows. Thats not a supermarket, its a distribution centre.
They used to be a bit like that with poor lighting to boot, but at least
the tills and staff were very fast
and Waitrose Woman and Muddling Man stayed out of the places as they felt
intimidated by the need to move items back into the trolley and do packing
into their bags on the shelf provided.
Fair enough, its been a while since I've been in an Aldi but for some
reason my wife insists on popping into Lidl "for a bargain" (it never is) and
they still look just like that, plus you get the fat chav women from the local
council estate wheezing themselves and their 5 kids down the isle and forming
a mobile roadblock.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-11-02 21:19:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 01:44:29 +0000
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful shitholes.
I truely do not understand why they are so popular. They mostly sell a
combination of Poundland size packages and generic products. I can do
equally as
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
well with careful selection at Tesco or Morrisons and get much higher quality
product.
I use Aldi regularly as one is very close. I find the quality of their
products much better than Tesco, and once you know the layout you can
get in and out very quickly.
They don't have a layout, they just have pallets straight of the lorry
arranged in rows. Thats not a supermarket, its a distribution centre.
But then Costco is also popular so each to their own I suppose.
I don't know which branches you've been to but my local ones are nothing
like that.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-11-02 13:21:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful shitholes.
I truely do not understand why they are so popular. They mostly sell a
combination of Poundland size packages and generic products. I can do equally as
well with careful selection at Tesco or Morrisons and get much higher quality
product.
I use Aldi regularly as one is very close. I find the quality of their
products much better than Tesco, and once you know the layout you can
get in and out very quickly.
Morrisons has the advantage that their products in Market Street are
excellent and beat the quality of the other supermarkets I have access to.
Morrisons has the disadvantage that their pre-packaged ham and cheese is at
the opposite corner of the store than their deli counter, meaning you can't
compare the two ranges without marching repeatedly the length of the
store...


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Roland Perry
2019-11-02 14:52:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Morrisons has the advantage that their products in Market Street are
excellent and beat the quality of the other supermarkets I have access to.
Morrisons has the disadvantage that their pre-packaged ham and cheese is at
the opposite corner of the store than their deli counter, meaning you can't
compare the two ranges without marching repeatedly the length of the
store...
I suspect that might be deliberate!
--
Roland Perry
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2019-11-02 12:41:27 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 01 Nov 2019 20:15:15 -0500
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful shitholes.
I truely do not understand why they are so popular. They mostly sell a
combination of Poundland size packages and generic products. I can do equally as
well with careful selection at Tesco or Morrisons and get much higher quality
product.
Quite.
Graeme Wall
2019-10-22 15:44:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets
the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted
and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple
of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat
wagons for that
You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one of
these?
<https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg>
yeah, In an earlier life I occasionally got to "drive" one
but I think their load is far more limited compared with a fork lift
And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
and wheeled cages,
wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly
loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles
on the ship.
That seems a little bit too much organisation to me
Post by Graeme Wall
think updated BRUTES.
I have no idea what BRUTES is
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Universal_Trolley_Equipment>
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib
how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?
Going from the OP, I’d guess 12 per day, or 24 if they’re running both
units together. And if it’s successful, scope for more.
Post by tim...
and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me that
the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??
OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck!
Plenty get transported around the country by train;
Yes I know, I was being awkward
:-)
Awkward, you? Surely not :-)
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
tim...
2019-10-22 16:30:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a
new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central
London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks
Actually into vans
Post by tim...
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Pallets
the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted
and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple
of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat
wagons for that
You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one of
these?
<https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg>
yeah, In an earlier life I occasionally got to "drive" one
but I think their load is far more limited compared with a fork lift
And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
and wheeled cages,
wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly
loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles
on the ship.
That seems a little bit too much organisation to me
Post by Graeme Wall
think updated BRUTES.
I have no idea what BRUTES is
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Universal_Trolley_Equipment>
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes
The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib
how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?
Going from the OP, I’d guess 12 per day, or 24 if they’re running both
units together. And if it’s successful, scope for more.
Post by tim...
and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me that
the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??
OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck!
Plenty get transported around the country by train;
Yes I know, I was being awkward
:-)
Awkward, you? Surely not :-)
I learnt it from Roland :-)
Sam Wilson
2019-10-24 13:06:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by tim...
the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted
and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple
of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat
wagons for that
You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one of
these?
<https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg>
Some lorries (and, I think, many aircraft) are fitted with handling
systems in the floor for allowing loads to be shifted around without
having to run a vehicle inside the cargo space. The ones in trucks
were known as 'jo-loaders' when had student summer jobs, but that was
some time ago and I can't find many references to that term now.

Sam
--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
Roland Perry
2019-10-22 13:01:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
think updated BRUTES.
I have no idea what BRUTES is
Are.
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2019-10-22 16:34:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
think updated BRUTES.
I have no idea what BRUTES is
Are.
If you think you were correcting my grammar, fraid not

I had assumed it was the name of a concept or system solution, say like
TOPS.
Roland Perry
2019-10-23 05:45:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
think updated BRUTES.
I have no idea what BRUTES is
Are.
If you think you were correcting my grammar, fraid not
I had assumed it was the name of a concept or system solution, say like
TOPS.
It's dispelling that assumption which requires your grammar to be
corrected.
--
Roland Perry
John Kenyon
2019-10-22 16:10:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
think updated BRUTES.
I have no idea what BRUTES is
Plural of BRUTE aka "British Rail Universal Trolley Equipment"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Universal_Trolley_Equipment
Marland
2019-10-22 10:59:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual
"units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units
onto little trucks
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
tim
Thousands of packages but if you want a guide to size think what the
different sizes of packages delivered by
amazon warehouse or carried by the various couriers such as DPD or DHL .
You will often see their interhub lorries on the motorways especially at
night moving such goods , the train to London can be compared with them.

1000’s of small business import items made for them by the box load from
say China all the time but not in the volumes to fill a whole container,
hence the container is shared and unstuffed at the arrival Port or an
Inland container terminal by firms who specialise in it . All that is
different here is that instead of passing onwards by lorry it is going to
be fowarded by train.

GH
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-10-22 11:16:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
<https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577>
One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from
a container port using old passenger trains.
Have I understood this right?
someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port
transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual
"units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)
and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units
onto little trucks
What size of individual unit is this going to work for?
Presumably pallets, or the kind of wheeled cage often used to transport
deliveries from road vehicles of whatever size, into town centre shops.

Or perhaps Bellsian autonomous 2' gauge vehicles.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
John Levine
2019-10-22 17:22:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
The trains, due for delivery in May, are having their seats removed and
being fitted with diesel engines. The engines will generate power when the
train is not running on non-electrified lines, such as the freight sidings ...
Don't they mean that the engines will not generate power when the
train is not running on non-electrified lines?
--
Regards,
John Levine, ***@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Certes
2019-10-22 17:58:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Levine
Post by Recliner
The trains, due for delivery in May, are having their seats removed and
being fitted with diesel engines. The engines will generate power when the
train is not running on non-electrified lines, such as the freight sidings ...
Don't they mean that the engines will not generate power when the
train is not running on non-electrified lines?
Perhaps they will generate power when the train is on non-electrified
lines but not running, as opposed to being on non-electrified lines and
coasting along with the momentum gained previously from the wires behind
it. But I don't think that's what they meant.
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