Discussion:
Passengers on the line at Leiwsham - RAIB report
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Recliner
2019-03-26 10:19:13 UTC
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, at 09:07:00 on Tue, 26 Mar 2019, Jeremy Double
There's probably around a thousand trains without toilets in and around
London.
I know but it's becoming obvious that this is unsatisfactory.
I’m not sure where you’d put toilets on tube stock without
obstructing the
emergency exit to the next carriage; as you can’t walk through the train,
would you want a toilet in each carriage?
The point is made in the RAIB report that in the event of a train being
unable to move, underground trains behind it are held at stations, so the
problem that arose at Lewisham wouldn’t arise. This seems a very
reasonable approach on a metro-style railway where the trains are not
provided with toilets.
That still leaves the train which is 'broken down' in the tunnel, and I
don't believe the minimum block length on the Underground is fully from
one station to the next, so there could be a train in the tunnel behind
a broken down one.
Actually it's worse than that, because if a train manages to limp to a
station, or breaks down at a station, there's almost inevitably a least
one train at a stand in the tunnel behind it.
Yes, that's probably true on the busier lines with trains every two
minutes.

I think the train behind is then instructed to proceed slowly and couple to
the stalled train ahead.

Alternatively, it can be instructed to reverse to the previous station. If
the platform is already occupied, the reversing train will either couple up
to it, or the other train will also reverse a short distance, so that one
passenger door of the first train can get to the platform.

Obviously, this only happens once they have given up on moving the stalled
train any time soon.
MissRiaElaine
2019-03-26 17:26:06 UTC
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In message
, at 09:07:00 on Tue, 26 Mar 2019, Jeremy Double
There's probably around a thousand trains without toilets in and around
London.
I know but it's becoming obvious that this is unsatisfactory.
I’m not sure where you’d put toilets on tube stock without
obstructing the
emergency exit to the next carriage; as you can’t walk through the train,
would you want a toilet in each carriage?
The point is made in the RAIB report that in the event of a train being
unable to move, underground trains behind it are held at stations, so the
problem that arose at Lewisham wouldn’t arise. This seems a very
reasonable approach on a metro-style railway where the trains are not
provided with toilets.
There aren't all that many Underground stations with public toilets,
either. The only one that springs to mind immediately is Barons Court,
we'd just travelled from Hounslow West and my other half was absolutely
bursting by the time we got there.
David Walters
2019-03-27 09:14:51 UTC
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Post by MissRiaElaine
In message
, at 09:07:00 on Tue, 26 Mar 2019, Jeremy Double
There's probably around a thousand trains without toilets in and around
London.
I know but it's becoming obvious that this is unsatisfactory.
I’m not sure where you’d put toilets on tube stock without
obstructing the
emergency exit to the next carriage; as you can’t walk through the train,
would you want a toilet in each carriage?
The point is made in the RAIB report that in the event of a train being
unable to move, underground trains behind it are held at stations, so the
problem that arose at Lewisham wouldn’t arise. This seems a very
reasonable approach on a metro-style railway where the trains are not
provided with toilets.
There aren't all that many Underground stations with public toilets,
either. The only one that springs to mind immediately is Barons Court,
we'd just travelled from Hounslow West and my other half was absolutely
bursting by the time we got there.
There are quite a few. On your journey 8 of the 12 stations travelled
through have toilets. There are fewer toilets on the deep bored sections.

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/toilets-map.pdf
Someone Somewhere
2019-03-27 09:22:33 UTC
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Post by David Walters
There are quite a few. On your journey 8 of the 12 stations travelled
through have toilets. There are fewer toilets on the deep bored sections.
Any chance the SuperSewer will improve this situation?
Charles Ellson
2019-03-27 18:51:38 UTC
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On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 09:22:33 +0000, Someone Somewhere
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by David Walters
There are quite a few. On your journey 8 of the 12 stations travelled
through have toilets. There are fewer toilets on the deep bored sections.
Any chance the SuperSewer will improve this situation?
It could produce some spectacular backing up.
Someone Somewhere
2019-03-28 06:28:34 UTC
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Post by Charles Ellson
On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 09:22:33 +0000, Someone Somewhere
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by David Walters
There are quite a few. On your journey 8 of the 12 stations travelled
through have toilets. There are fewer toilets on the deep bored sections.
Any chance the SuperSewer will improve this situation?
It could produce some spectacular backing up.
I was more suggesting (although half joking) that given the super sewer
will somewhat guarantee for the first time that the sewer was lower than
the drains in even deep level tubes it might make installing bogs easier.

But then again, toilets don't drive revenue so adding new ones is
presumably off the bottom of whatever today's priority list is.
Natalie Amery
2019-03-27 16:51:27 UTC
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Post by MissRiaElaine
There aren't all that many Underground stations with public toilets,
either. The only one that springs to mind immediately is Barons Court,
we'd just travelled from Hounslow West and my other half was absolutely
bursting by the time we got there.
More than you'd think:

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/toilets-map.pdf
--
Natalie Amery. +---------+ ________________ _________________
##### |Cambridge| |# [] ## ## [] # | | # [] ## ## [] #|
#######__o +-+-----+-+ | [] [] | | [] [] |
#######'/ ----------+-----+--------- \-oo----------oo-/+\-oo----------oo-/
Roland Perry
2019-03-27 18:33:20 UTC
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Post by David Walters
Post by MissRiaElaine
There aren't all that many Underground stations with public toilets,
either. The only one that springs to mind immediately is Barons Court,
we'd just travelled from Hounslow West and my other half was absolutely
bursting by the time we got there.
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/toilets-map.pdf
That's not toilets at TfL stations, it's largely toilets somewhere near
TfL stations. The clue being the black lozenge "outside the gateline".

With a side order of "Dagger": not managed by TfL.
--
Roland Perry
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-03-28 11:24:52 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by David Walters
Post by MissRiaElaine
There aren't all that many Underground stations with public toilets,
either. The only one that springs to mind immediately is Barons Court,
we'd just travelled from Hounslow West and my other half was absolutely
bursting by the time we got there.
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/toilets-map.pdf
That's not toilets at TfL stations, it's largely toilets somewhere near
TfL stations. The clue being the black lozenge "outside the gateline".
With a side order of "Dagger": not managed by TfL.
Only the dagger means it’s not toilets at TfL stations (and not necessarily
even then; red-with-dagger ie not TfL managed but still inside the gateline
features on the map).

Most stations on the map aren’t marked with the dagger.

If you wish to claim that toilets outside the gateline, but in the station
building and managed by the station operator aren’t "at" the station, then
surely many NR stations with toilets also "don’t" have them (eg Paddington,
Bristol Parkway, Swansea).


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Roland Perry
2019-03-28 14:23:42 UTC
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Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Roland Perry
Post by David Walters
Post by MissRiaElaine
There aren't all that many Underground stations with public toilets,
either. The only one that springs to mind immediately is Barons Court,
we'd just travelled from Hounslow West and my other half was absolutely
bursting by the time we got there.
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/toilets-map.pdf
That's not toilets at TfL stations, it's largely toilets somewhere near
TfL stations. The clue being the black lozenge "outside the gateline".
With a side order of "Dagger": not managed by TfL.
Only the dagger means it’s not toilets at TfL stations (and not necessarily
even then; red-with-dagger ie not TfL managed but still inside the gateline
features on the map).
There's three situations:

Inside the gateline (and probably inevitably managed by TfL, but
no doubt someone can find a counter-example)

Outside the gateline but managed by TfL (and probably therefore
quite close to the gateline/ticket office but no doubt someone
can find a counter-example)

Situated and managed by "someone else".
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Most stations on the map aren’t marked with the dagger.
I can't see any in Z1 which aren't.
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
If you wish to claim that toilets outside the gateline, but in the station
building and managed by the station operator aren’t "at" the station, then
surely many NR stations with toilets also "don’t" have them (eg Paddington,
Bristol Parkway, Swansea).
"Station operator" - see above for whether that's TfL or National Rail.
So yes, a toilet at say Kings Cross sited and managed by the NR operator
(in that case Network Rail) isn't in the tube station.
--
Roland Perry
Robin
2019-03-28 15:06:02 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Roland Perry
Post by David Walters
Post by MissRiaElaine
There aren't all that many Underground stations with public toilets,
either. The only one that springs to mind immediately is Barons Court,
we'd just travelled from Hounslow West and my other half was absolutely
bursting by the time we got there.
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/toilets-map.pdf
That's not toilets at TfL stations, it's largely toilets somewhere near
TfL stations. The clue being the black lozenge "outside the gateline".
With a side order of "Dagger": not managed by TfL.
Only the dagger means it’s not toilets at TfL stations (and not necessarily
even then; red-with-dagger ie not TfL managed but still inside the gateline
features on the map).
Inside the gateline (and probably inevitably managed by TfL, but
no doubt someone can find a counter-example)
Outside the gateline but managed by TfL (and probably therefore
quite close to the gateline/ticket office but no doubt someone
can find a counter-example)
Situated and managed by "someone else".
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Most stations on the map aren’t marked with the dagger.
I can't see any in Z1 which aren't.
I can't see why that matters. But if it does there's Baker Street. Plus
Shoreditch High Street on the Overground.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
If you wish to claim that toilets outside the gateline, but in the station
building and managed by the station operator aren’t "at" the station, then
surely many NR stations with toilets also "don’t" have them (eg Paddington,
Bristol Parkway, Swansea).
"Station operator" - see above for whether that's TfL or National Rail.
So yes, a toilet at say Kings Cross sited and managed by the NR operator
(in that case Network Rail) isn't in the tube station.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Roland Perry
2019-03-28 15:50:34 UTC
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Post by Robin
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Roland Perry
Post by David Walters
Post by MissRiaElaine
There aren't all that many Underground stations with public toilets,
either. The only one that springs to mind immediately is Barons Court,
we'd just travelled from Hounslow West and my other half was absolutely
bursting by the time we got there.
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/toilets-map.pdf
That's not toilets at TfL stations, it's largely toilets somewhere near
TfL stations. The clue being the black lozenge "outside the gateline".
With a side order of "Dagger": not managed by TfL.
Only the dagger means it’s not toilets at TfL stations (and not necessarily
even then; red-with-dagger ie not TfL managed but still inside the gateline
features on the map).
Inside the gateline (and probably inevitably managed by TfL, but
no doubt someone can find a counter-example)
Outside the gateline but managed by TfL (and probably therefore
quite close to the gateline/ticket office but no doubt someone
can find a counter-example)
Situated and managed by "someone else".
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Most stations on the map aren’t marked with the dagger.
I can't see any in Z1 which aren't.
I can't see why that matters.
Because of the higher concentration of passengers.
Post by Robin
But if it does there's Baker Street. Plus Shoreditch High Street on
the Overground.
Fair enough (and I forgot the latter was infamously Z1; disabled toilet
only, does it need a RADAR key? I'll forgive the thread drift from
Underground Stations to Overground).
--
Roland Perry
Robin
2019-03-28 17:32:13 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Robin
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Roland Perry
Post by David Walters
Post by MissRiaElaine
There aren't all that many Underground stations with public toilets,
either. The only one that springs to mind immediately is Barons Court,
we'd just travelled from Hounslow West and my other half was absolutely
bursting by the time we got there.
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/toilets-map.pdf
That's not toilets at TfL stations, it's largely toilets somewhere near
TfL stations. The clue being the black lozenge "outside the gateline".
With a side order of "Dagger": not managed by TfL.
Only the dagger means it’s not toilets at TfL stations (and not necessarily
even then; red-with-dagger ie not TfL managed but still inside the gateline
features on the map).
          Inside the gateline (and probably inevitably managed by
TfL, but
         no doubt someone can find a counter-example)
          Outside the gateline but managed by TfL (and probably
therefore
         quite close to the gateline/ticket office but no doubt someone
         can find a counter-example)
          Situated and managed by "someone else".
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Most stations on the map aren’t marked with the dagger.
 I can't see any in Z1 which aren't.
I can't see why that matters.
Because of the higher concentration of passengers.
Post by Robin
But if it does there's Baker Street.  Plus Shoreditch High Street on
the Overground.
Fair enough (and I forgot the latter was infamously Z1; disabled toilet
only, does it need a RADAR key? I'll forgive the thread drift from
Underground Stations to Overground).
That's immensely kind of you. It was indeed stupid of me to think that
someone who posted about the map that "That's not toilets at TfL
stations..." expected comments about TfL stations other than underground
stations.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Roland Perry
2019-03-28 18:42:45 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Robin
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Robin
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
on Wed,
Post by David Walters
Post by MissRiaElaine
There aren't all that many Underground stations with public toilets,
either. The only one that springs to mind immediately is Barons Court,
we'd just travelled from Hounslow West and my other half was absolutely
bursting by the time we got there.
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/toilets-map.pdf
That's not toilets at TfL stations, it's largely toilets
somewhere near
TfL stations. The clue being the black lozenge "outside the gateline".
With a side order of "Dagger": not managed by TfL.
Only the dagger means it’s not toilets at TfL stations (and not necessarily
even then; red-with-dagger ie not TfL managed but still inside the gateline
features on the map).
          Inside the gateline (and probably inevitably
managed by TfL, but
         no doubt someone can find a counter-example)
          Outside the gateline but managed by TfL (and
probably therefore
         quite close to the gateline/ticket office but no doubt someone
         can find a counter-example)
          Situated and managed by "someone else".
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Most stations on the map aren’t marked with the dagger.
 I can't see any in Z1 which aren't.
I can't see why that matters.
Because of the higher concentration of passengers.
Post by Robin
But if it does there's Baker Street.  Plus Shoreditch High Street
on the Overground.
Fair enough (and I forgot the latter was infamously Z1; disabled
toilet only, does it need a RADAR key? I'll forgive the thread drift
from Underground Stations to Overground).
That's immensely kind of you. It was indeed stupid of me to think that
someone who posted about the map that "That's not toilets at TfL
stations..." expected comments about TfL stations other than
underground stations.
I'm not calling you stupid (nor a fish from Wanda) but you haven't been
paying attention. Some highlights from the quping above:

There aren't all that many Underground stations with public toilets

More than you'd think

<etc>
--
Roland Perry
Natalie Amery
2019-03-28 17:47:53 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
If you wish to claim that toilets outside the gateline, but in the station
building and managed by the station operator aren’t "at" the station, then
surely many NR stations with toilets also "don’t" have them (eg Paddington,
Bristol Parkway, Swansea).
"Station operator" - see above for whether that's TfL or National Rail.
So yes, a toilet at say Kings Cross sited and managed by the NR operator
(in that case Network Rail) isn't in the tube station.
From personal experience the toilets are Westminster (20p) and
Monument (free) are within the tube station building (although in the
outside wall at Westminster) albeit not apparently managed by TfL.

I believe the map is now incorrect in that the toilets in Charing
Cross station are now free to use.
--
Natalie Amery. There through all the heartache,
##### There through all the pain
#######__o You still sense a deeper peace,
#######'/ A strength you can't explain - Mark Dennis
Roland Perry
2019-03-28 18:47:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Natalie Amery
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
If you wish to claim that toilets outside the gateline, but in the station
building and managed by the station operator aren’t "at" the station, then
surely many NR stations with toilets also "don’t" have them (eg Paddington,
Bristol Parkway, Swansea).
"Station operator" - see above for whether that's TfL or National Rail.
So yes, a toilet at say Kings Cross sited and managed by the NR operator
(in that case Network Rail) isn't in the tube station.
From personal experience the toilets are Westminster (20p)
Recent experience, I'm pretty sure they've been 50p for about a decade.
Post by Natalie Amery
and Monument (free) are within the tube station building (although in
the outside wall at Westminster) albeit not apparently managed by TfL.
The Westminster toilets are in an entirely council pedestrian underpass.
Which also has a link to the tube station, which may have confused you.
Post by Natalie Amery
I believe the map is now incorrect in that the toilets in Charing
Cross station are now free to use.
Dunno.
--
Roland Perry
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-03-28 18:03:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Roland Perry
Post by David Walters
Post by MissRiaElaine
There aren't all that many Underground stations with public toilets,
either. The only one that springs to mind immediately is Barons Court,
we'd just travelled from Hounslow West and my other half was absolutely
bursting by the time we got there.
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/toilets-map.pdf
That's not toilets at TfL stations, it's largely toilets somewhere near
TfL stations. The clue being the black lozenge "outside the gateline".
With a side order of "Dagger": not managed by TfL.
Only the dagger means it’s not toilets at TfL stations (and not necessarily
even then; red-with-dagger ie not TfL managed but still inside the gateline
features on the map).
Inside the gateline (and probably inevitably managed by TfL, but
no doubt someone can find a counter-example)
Just at a glance, Barking, Upminster, Ealing Broadway, Wimbledon, Clapham
Junction (presumably all NR toilets); Earls Court (I wonder who manages
those).
Post by Roland Perry
Outside the gateline but managed by TfL (and probably therefore
quite close to the gateline/ticket office but no doubt someone
can find a counter-example)
Situated and managed by "someone else".
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Most stations on the map aren’t marked with the dagger.
I can't see any in Z1 which aren't.
Baker Street.

Besides which I didn’t realise the discussion was limited to zone 1...


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Charles Ellson
2019-03-26 23:24:39 UTC
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On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 10:19:13 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
In message
, at 09:07:00 on Tue, 26 Mar 2019, Jeremy Double
There's probably around a thousand trains without toilets in and around
London.
I know but it's becoming obvious that this is unsatisfactory.
I’m not sure where you’d put toilets on tube stock without
obstructing the
emergency exit to the next carriage; as you can’t walk through the train,
would you want a toilet in each carriage?
The point is made in the RAIB report that in the event of a train being
unable to move, underground trains behind it are held at stations, so the
problem that arose at Lewisham wouldn’t arise. This seems a very
reasonable approach on a metro-style railway where the trains are not
provided with toilets.
That still leaves the train which is 'broken down' in the tunnel, and I
don't believe the minimum block length on the Underground is fully from
one station to the next, so there could be a train in the tunnel behind
a broken down one.
Actually it's worse than that, because if a train manages to limp to a
station, or breaks down at a station, there's almost inevitably a least
one train at a stand in the tunnel behind it.
Yes, that's probably true on the busier lines with trains every two
minutes.
I think the train behind is then instructed to proceed slowly and couple to
the stalled train ahead.
Alternatively, it can be instructed to reverse to the previous station.
Not normally done on LU AFAIAA, mainly because of the need for
something to push the stalled train and the likelihood that by that
time the preceding station will also have a train in the platform. At
some locations there might be a convenient crossover for a train to be
backed out if the stalled train cannot be moved without engineering
intervention. One or two trains in a tunnel between two occupied
platforms is probably a regular event on the Jubilee Line and others
with close signalling and an intensive service; in some places on ATO
lines you can often see a following train less than a length away from
the platform when there is bunching.
Post by Recliner
If
the platform is already occupied, the reversing train will either couple up
to it, or the other train will also reverse a short distance, so that one
passenger door of the first train can get to the platform.
Obviously, this only happens once they have given up on moving the stalled
train any time soon.
Roland Perry
2019-03-27 07:12:33 UTC
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Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Recliner
I think the train behind is then instructed to proceed slowly and couple to
the stalled train ahead.
Alternatively, it can be instructed to reverse to the previous station.
Not normally done on LU AFAIAA
I'd ask Recliner if he's ever seen a report of the activity he describes
taking place.
--
Roland Perry
Christopher A. Lee
2019-03-27 10:37:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Recliner
I think the train behind is then instructed to proceed slowly and couple to
the stalled train ahead.
Alternatively, it can be instructed to reverse to the previous station.
Not normally done on LU AFAIAA
I'd ask Recliner if he's ever seen a report of the activity he describes
taking place.
My old man worked on the Met, rising via yard manager at Neasden and
station master, to becoming an area manager.

He told the story or some bright young manager ordering an 8-car train
of A-stock to couple up behind another 8-car train that had failed.
Making it too long for a short section - the average block length is
about 300 metres so some are shorter, and a 16-car A-stock train would
be 256.

So it would occupy three blocks at a time.

I have no idea how it was sorted out.
Charles Ellson
2019-03-27 19:04:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 05:37:31 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Recliner
I think the train behind is then instructed to proceed slowly and couple to
the stalled train ahead.
Alternatively, it can be instructed to reverse to the previous station.
Not normally done on LU AFAIAA
I'd ask Recliner if he's ever seen a report of the activity he describes
taking place.
My old man worked on the Met, rising via yard manager at Neasden and
station master, to becoming an area manager.
He told the story or some bright young manager ordering an 8-car train
of A-stock to couple up behind another 8-car train that had failed.
Making it too long for a short section - the average block length is
about 300 metres so some are shorter, and a 16-car A-stock train would
be 256.
So it would occupy three blocks at a time.
I have no idea how it was sorted out.
It would not have been a rare version of assistance on the
Underground. Depending on where/what the fault was there would have
been the opportunity to rearrange into different combinations of
4-coach units but the main problem might not have amounted to more
than isolating the tripcock on the rear 8 set to conform to the
standard practice of only the end vehicles having an operational
tripcock (if you didn't disable the trips on the middle cabs of an 8
coach train you would get tripped all day).
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-03-28 11:24:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Recliner
I think the train behind is then instructed to proceed slowly and couple to
the stalled train ahead.
Alternatively, it can be instructed to reverse to the previous station.
Not normally done on LU AFAIAA
I'd ask Recliner if he's ever seen a report of the activity he describes
taking place.
My old man worked on the Met, rising via yard manager at Neasden and
station master, to becoming an area manager.
He told the story or some bright young manager ordering an 8-car train
of A-stock to couple up behind another 8-car train that had failed.
Making it too long for a short section - the average block length is
about 300 metres so some are shorter, and a 16-car A-stock train would
be 256.
So it would occupy three blocks at a time.
I have no idea how it was sorted out.
Why would that be a problem, other than at the terminus? Presumably they
were only going to run to the next station with passengers on and then
detrain, then run empty to a siding or depot.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
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