On Mar 25, 5:01 pm, Tom Anderson <***@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Mar 2008, Andy wrote:
> > On Mar 25, 8:00 am, The Real Doctor <***@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >> On 24 Mar, 23:10, Adrian <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> On Mar 24, 4:00 pm, Dan G <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Anyone seen a more detailed costing of the scheme? *Why* is it costing
> >>>> so much more than other, not dissimilar, projects?
> >>> In part it will cost a lot because it will be (or should be)
> >>> engineered to a very high standard. The Jubilee Line extension is a
> >>> pointer in that respect.
> >> But it is predicted to cost more than five times as much as the
> >> Jubilee Line extension ...
> >>> You have clearly never lived in a city where good spacious (1,000 sq
> >>> ft per person) affordable housing is available to middle class
> >>> workers. Or, enjoyed one where a normal comfortable journey to work
> >>> is 40 minutes or less.
> >> And how many people do you think will find good, spacious, affordable
> >> housing as a result of this line. It'll knock quarter of an hour,
> >> tops, off the journey onto London - are those fifteen minutes really
> >> deterring millions from moving to good, spacious, affordable housing?
> > But wasn't the main justification for crossrail the relief of the
> > overcrowding already present on existing lines, as well as allowing
> > for predicted growth. It will take a fair number of people off the
> > Central line (and other Underground lines) as well as providing extra
> > capacity on the National Rail lines to either side.
> Except it won't. It will relieve the Central line west of Stratford, for
> sure, which in practice means Stratford to Oxford Circus. But it doesn't
> actually add any capacity at all to the Great Eastern or Western railways
> - every path that Crossrail will use is currently used by a normal train.
> Crossrail trains will be a bit longer, but you could deliver the same
> capacity increase by adapting those lines for longer trains without the
> central tunnel bit for a lot less money.
It will also relieve the Circle, Met, H&C, the Bakerloo and the
Jubilee, at least. If you look back, the relief of already overcrowed
underground lines was always the main reason behind the plans. The
services to/from the West will gain a considerable increase in
capacity, with 10 car trains replacing the current shorter DMUs. The
services to/from the East will generally also gain in train length, as
the stopping trains are mostly (all?) eight cars.
> > The fact that it will reduce journey times is an added benefit, but not
> > the main justification for the construction.
> It also won't reduce journey times much. Trips you can make with Crossrail
> can currently be made with train plus Central line via quite easy changes
> at Stratford or Ealing Broadway (or more painful ones at Liverpool Street
> or Paddington, after a quicker run to the terminal). It will make the
> trips a lot more convenient by eliminating those changes, but not hugely
There will certainly be faster journey times on the western side, as
the EMUs will accelerate considerably better than the Turbos and with
all (at least during the peak) trains being of the same type pathing
will be slightly easier. There is also the consideration of having to
leave time for delays on the underground when heading home. A change
of train at either Ealing or Paddington means having to pad your
journey a fair amount. I do agree that this is less of a problem on
the Eastern side though.
Don't forget that the capacity doesn't just deal with the trains, but
the space needed at the stations for interchange. A fair amount of the
costs of Crossrail stations in central london will be needed anyway as
the current underground stations can't cope. Oxford Circus is
sometimes closed due to overcrowding, and Tottenham Court Road always
a bit of a nightmare to get around, even off peak.
> I believe there is no philosophical high-road in science, with
> epistemological signposts. No, we are in a jungle and find our way by
> trial and error, building our road behind us as we proceed. -- Max Born