Discussion:
Looking forward to when even more transport, and self driving cars, rely on 24x7 data connectivity
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Roland Perry
2018-12-06 14:32:39 UTC
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"Tracker systems which rely on the O2 network have also been affected by
the outage, meaning countdown screens at London bus stops have stopped
working.

Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.

A TfL spokesperson said: "We're sorry that customers are unable to use
our Countdown screens at bus stops for live travel information.

This is a result of a nationwide O2 data outage. We are working with our
service provider to resolve this as soon as possible."

ps Actually, it's more likely that O2 working with *its* provider
[Ericsson] will get this thing resolved.
--
Roland Perry
b***@p6bc.com
2018-12-06 14:53:04 UTC
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On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 14:32:39 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
"Tracker systems which rely on the O2 network have also been affected by
the outage, meaning countdown screens at London bus stops have stopped
working.
Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.
A TfL spokesperson said: "We're sorry that customers are unable to use
our Countdown screens at bus stops for live travel information.
This is a result of a nationwide O2 data outage. We are working with our
service provider to resolve this as soon as possible."
ps Actually, it's more likely that O2 working with *its* provider
[Ericsson] will get this thing resolved.
Obviously a backup link wasn't in the spec. Nice one TfL.
Roland Perry
2018-12-06 15:23:22 UTC
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Post by b***@p6bc.com
Post by Roland Perry
"Tracker systems which rely on the O2 network have also been affected by
the outage, meaning countdown screens at London bus stops have stopped
working.
Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.
A TfL spokesperson said: "We're sorry that customers are unable to use
our Countdown screens at bus stops for live travel information.
This is a result of a nationwide O2 data outage. We are working with our
service provider to resolve this as soon as possible."
ps Actually, it's more likely that O2 working with *its* provider
[Ericsson] will get this thing resolved.
Obviously a backup link wasn't in the spec. Nice one TfL.
Dual-SIM, or domestic roaming, for applications such as this are a bit
of a challenge. Normally what users are looking for is redundancy if one
or two masts fail, not if the whole network fails.
--
Roland Perry
b***@u6g.org
2018-12-06 15:52:18 UTC
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Permalink
On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 15:23:22 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@p6bc.com
Post by Roland Perry
"Tracker systems which rely on the O2 network have also been affected by
the outage, meaning countdown screens at London bus stops have stopped
working.
Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.
A TfL spokesperson said: "We're sorry that customers are unable to use
our Countdown screens at bus stops for live travel information.
This is a result of a nationwide O2 data outage. We are working with our
service provider to resolve this as soon as possible."
ps Actually, it's more likely that O2 working with *its* provider
[Ericsson] will get this thing resolved.
Obviously a backup link wasn't in the spec. Nice one TfL.
Dual-SIM, or domestic roaming, for applications such as this are a bit
of a challenge. Normally what users are looking for is redundancy if one
or two masts fail, not if the whole network fails.
Its a reasonably important service so having dual sims should really have
been in the design. Ditto down at gatwick where - inexplicably - they dumped
a wired link from the control tower for a phone network data link to power
their information screens. Which then went down recently. Whatever shiny
suited salesmen sold them that pup was probably laughing all the way to the
wine bar after that.
David Walters
2018-12-06 17:07:06 UTC
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Post by b***@u6g.org
On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 15:23:22 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@p6bc.com
Post by Roland Perry
"Tracker systems which rely on the O2 network have also been affected by
the outage, meaning countdown screens at London bus stops have stopped
working.
Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.
A TfL spokesperson said: "We're sorry that customers are unable to use
our Countdown screens at bus stops for live travel information.
This is a result of a nationwide O2 data outage. We are working with our
service provider to resolve this as soon as possible."
ps Actually, it's more likely that O2 working with *its* provider
[Ericsson] will get this thing resolved.
Obviously a backup link wasn't in the spec. Nice one TfL.
Dual-SIM, or domestic roaming, for applications such as this are a bit
of a challenge. Normally what users are looking for is redundancy if one
or two masts fail, not if the whole network fails.
Its a reasonably important service
I'm not convinced it is. While it's very nice to know when the next bus
is along the vast majority of London bus routes are frequent enough that
you can just wait for a while for the next to turn up.
MikeS
2018-12-06 17:58:34 UTC
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Post by David Walters
Post by b***@u6g.org
On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 15:23:22 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@p6bc.com
Post by Roland Perry
"Tracker systems which rely on the O2 network have also been affected by
the outage, meaning countdown screens at London bus stops have stopped
working.
Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.
A TfL spokesperson said: "We're sorry that customers are unable to use
our Countdown screens at bus stops for live travel information.
This is a result of a nationwide O2 data outage. We are working with our
service provider to resolve this as soon as possible."
ps Actually, it's more likely that O2 working with *its* provider
[Ericsson] will get this thing resolved.
Obviously a backup link wasn't in the spec. Nice one TfL.
Dual-SIM, or domestic roaming, for applications such as this are a bit
of a challenge. Normally what users are looking for is redundancy if one
or two masts fail, not if the whole network fails.
Its a reasonably important service
I'm not convinced it is. While it's very nice to know when the next bus
is along the vast majority of London bus routes are frequent enough that
you can just wait for a while for the next to turn up.
And the screens are not available anyway on many (majority of?) stops
across the whole TfL area.
Robin
2018-12-06 18:10:42 UTC
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Post by MikeS
Post by David Walters
Post by b***@u6g.org
On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 15:23:22 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@p6bc.com
Post by Roland Perry
"Tracker systems which rely on the O2 network have also been affected by
the outage, meaning countdown screens at London bus stops have stopped
working.
Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.
A TfL spokesperson said: "We're sorry that customers are unable to use
our Countdown screens at bus stops for live travel information.
This is a result of a nationwide O2 data outage. We are working with our
service provider to resolve this as soon as possible."
ps Actually, it's more likely that O2 working with *its* provider
    [Ericsson] will get this thing resolved.
Obviously a backup link wasn't in the spec. Nice one TfL.
Dual-SIM, or domestic roaming, for applications such as this are a bit
of a challenge. Normally what users are looking for is redundancy if one
or two masts fail, not if the whole network fails.
Its a reasonably important service
I'm not convinced it is. While it's very nice to know when the next bus
is along the vast majority of London bus routes are frequent enough that
you can just wait for a while for the next to turn up.
And the screens are not available anyway on many (majority of?) stops
across the whole TfL area.
more than 19,000 stops;
2,500 Countdown signs;
TfL not paying for more due to lack of funds; but
you can pay for your own if you want to and have a site! See
<https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2018_02_00_appx_c._countdown_pamphlet.pdf>
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Richard
2018-12-06 23:12:16 UTC
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Post by David Walters
Post by b***@u6g.org
Its a reasonably important service
I'm not convinced it is. While it's very nice to know when the next bus
is along the vast majority of London bus routes are frequent enough that
you can just wait for a while for the next to turn up.
Not essential, but I think a more important requirement of the system
is for the bus operators and TfL to know where the buses are. And if
the buses are also using O2... Certainly there was no real-time for
my bus this morning. There's no reason for the two suppliers to be
the same, but it looks like they might be.

Even so, time between failures of telecomms networks is usually - or
should be - measured in decades.

Richard.
Roland Perry
2018-12-07 07:07:59 UTC
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Post by Richard
Post by David Walters
Post by b***@u6g.org
Its a reasonably important service
I'm not convinced it is. While it's very nice to know when the next bus
is along the vast majority of London bus routes are frequent enough that
you can just wait for a while for the next to turn up.
Not essential, but I think a more important requirement of the system
is for the bus operators and TfL to know where the buses are. And if
the buses are also using O2... Certainly there was no real-time for
my bus this morning.
It's unfortunate that the case-study the BBC News has chosen for this
outage is the TfL bus information - perhaps because one of their
journalists noticed it at first hand, or maybe they think their readers
could relate to it.

In truth it's one of the least important services to be affected by the
outage, which has the potential (in a future scenario) to ground half
the country's self-driving cars, or cause half of commuters to be unable
to use their m-ticketing application.
--
Roland Perry
b***@o0la8q.edu
2018-12-07 09:41:39 UTC
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On Fri, 7 Dec 2018 07:07:59 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
In truth it's one of the least important services to be affected by the
outage, which has the potential (in a future scenario) to ground half
the country's self-driving cars, or cause half of commuters to be unable
to use their m-ticketing application.
Lets hope car manufacturers arn't so stupid as to require an always-on
connection for self driving cars otherwise someone could just sit on a
motorway bridge with a jammer and cause chaos.
Recliner
2018-12-07 11:04:05 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Richard
Post by David Walters
Post by b***@u6g.org
Its a reasonably important service
I'm not convinced it is. While it's very nice to know when the next bus
is along the vast majority of London bus routes are frequent enough that
you can just wait for a while for the next to turn up.
Not essential, but I think a more important requirement of the system
is for the bus operators and TfL to know where the buses are. And if
the buses are also using O2... Certainly there was no real-time for
my bus this morning.
It's unfortunate that the case-study the BBC News has chosen for this
outage is the TfL bus information - perhaps because one of their
journalists noticed it at first hand, or maybe they think their readers
could relate to it.
In truth it's one of the least important services to be affected by the
outage, which has the potential (in a future scenario) to ground half
the country's self-driving cars, or cause half of commuters to be unable
to use their m-ticketing application.
Do any self-driving cars depend, or plan to depend, on continuous, reliable
access to a data network? It sounds most improbable. How would they
operate at all on remote roads with no signal?

They will need periodic access to update their mapping data, report back to
base, or update software, but shouldn't need continuous access.
Roland Perry
2018-12-07 13:07:53 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Do any self-driving cars depend, or plan to depend, on continuous, reliable
access to a data network? It sounds most improbable. How would they
operate at all on remote roads with no signal?
They will need periodic access to update their mapping data, report back to
base, or update software, but shouldn't need continuous access.
It's been said that if in a situation of gridlock on a stretch of road,
the cars would communicate with each other to decide a priority to
proceed.

That's a more immediately real time situation than still importantly
attempting to avoid obstructions occurring at short notice such as RTAs,
and this week Network Rail closing the A10 level crossing at Littleport
for hours, so they could get machinery in place to fix a broken rail.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-12-07 14:24:56 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Do any self-driving cars depend, or plan to depend, on continuous, reliable
access to a data network? It sounds most improbable. How would they
operate at all on remote roads with no signal?
They will need periodic access to update their mapping data, report back to
base, or update software, but shouldn't need continuous access.
It's been said that if in a situation of gridlock on a stretch of road,
the cars would communicate with each other to decide a priority to
proceed.
Would they use the phone network or, much more probably, some sort of
short range digital radio?
Post by Roland Perry
That's a more immediately real time situation than still importantly
attempting to avoid obstructions occurring at short notice such as RTAs,
and this week Network Rail closing the A10 level crossing at Littleport
for hours, so they could get machinery in place to fix a broken rail.
I wonder if that sort of information could not also be broadcast like
traffic alerts are now?
Roland Perry
2018-12-07 15:28:41 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
It's been said that if in a situation of gridlock on a stretch of road,
the cars would communicate with each other to decide a priority to
proceed.
Would they use the phone network or, much more probably, some sort of
short range digital radio?
Local chatter on bluetooth? How would each vehicle authenticate itself
sufficiently well to act on its own initiative, if the ultimate control
was supposed to be in the [national] cloud?
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
That's a more immediately real time situation than still importantly
attempting to avoid obstructions occurring at short notice such as RTAs,
and this week Network Rail closing the A10 level crossing at Littleport
for hours, so they could get machinery in place to fix a broken rail.
I wonder if that sort of information could not also be broadcast like
traffic alerts are now?
Using what radio spectrum? Not O2 yesterday, obviously.
--
Roland Perry
David Cantrell
2018-12-10 10:09:43 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In truth it's one of the least important services to be affected by the
outage, which has the potential (in a future scenario) to ground half
the country's self-driving cars, or cause half of commuters to be unable
to use their m-ticketing application.
Those would be the same commuters who can't show their tickets when the
train is in the middle of ruralistan. A problem that I have literally
never heard of.

My own experience of using such things is that you always have the
option to download the ticket to your device.

No doubt you'll now come up with some weird edge case, but in that case
I would assume that ticket inspectors would just wave people through if
they know that there's an outage.
--
David Cantrell
Roland Perry
2018-12-10 14:22:41 UTC
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Post by David Cantrell
Post by Roland Perry
In truth it's one of the least important services to be affected by the
outage, which has the potential (in a future scenario) to ground half
the country's self-driving cars, or cause half of commuters to be unable
to use their m-ticketing application.
Those would be the same commuters who can't show their tickets when the
train is in the middle of ruralistan. A problem that I have literally
never heard of.
My own experience of using such things is that you always have the
option to download the ticket to your device.
Not if there's an O2 outage at the time you'd be wanting to download it.
And of course if you are one of the people who has been repeatedly
assured that the 'best' way to get a ticket is to buy it[1] via an App
while walking to the station... no O2, no ticket.

And of course as a result there's a queue out of the door for both the
rarely-open ticket window and the machines. The 1tph train is due in 5
minutes.
Post by David Cantrell
No doubt you'll now come up with some weird edge case, but in that case
I would assume that ticket inspectors would just wave people through if
they know that there's an outage.
"The computer[aka barrier] says no" is a common issue at places like
Kings Cross where the staff appear to be untrained at anything, and T&C
for m-ticketing and e-ticketing are riddled with "if the tech is broken,
then tough shit" messages.

[1] Or indeed your station parking.
--
Roland Perry
b***@16j3dx5.co.uk
2018-12-10 14:45:27 UTC
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On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:22:41 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
And of course as a result there's a queue out of the door for both the
rarely-open ticket window and the machines. The 1tph train is due in 5
minutes.
With some clueless tourist or pensioner randomly pressing every button in
order to try and buy a ticket.
David Cantrell
2018-12-10 10:00:31 UTC
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Post by b***@u6g.org
Post by Roland Perry
Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.
Its a reasonably important service so having dual sims should really
have been in the design.
The next bus display screens really aren't that important. The buses
will still run without them, and they have big signs on the front
telling you what route they're running on and where they're going, so
passengers can still get to their destinations.

More important is the data link from bus to HQ so that HQ knows where
they are. That apparently went down too, and without that info the bus
service would have been a bit less efficiently managed. But only a bit.
--
David Cantrell | even more awesome than a panda-fur coat

Support terrierism! Adopt a dog today!
b***@4maxw8u7q__fbimcvl7zx.gov
2018-12-10 10:47:48 UTC
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On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:00:31 +0000
Post by David Cantrell
Post by b***@u6g.org
Post by Roland Perry
Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.
Its a reasonably important service so having dual sims should really
have been in the design.
The next bus display screens really aren't that important. The buses
will still run without them, and they have big signs on the front
telling you what route they're running on and where they're going, so
passengers can still get to their destinations.
Its pretty useful to know if the next bus is 20 mins away and you could
walk to your destination faster. I've done that on a number of occasions.
David Cantrell
2018-12-11 09:58:53 UTC
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Post by b***@4maxw8u7q__fbimcvl7zx.gov
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:00:31 +0000
Post by David Cantrell
The next bus display screens really aren't that important. The buses
will still run without them, and they have big signs on the front
telling you what route they're running on and where they're going, so
passengers can still get to their destinations.
Its pretty useful to know if the next bus is 20 mins away and you could
walk to your destination faster. I've done that on a number of occasions.
I wonder how people cope at the vast majority of bus stops that don't
have electronic signs.
--
David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic

Longum iter est per praecepta, breve et efficax per exempla.
Graeme Wall
2018-12-11 10:18:26 UTC
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Post by David Cantrell
Post by b***@4maxw8u7q__fbimcvl7zx.gov
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:00:31 +0000
Post by David Cantrell
The next bus display screens really aren't that important. The buses
will still run without them, and they have big signs on the front
telling you what route they're running on and where they're going, so
passengers can still get to their destinations.
Its pretty useful to know if the next bus is 20 mins away and you could
walk to your destination faster. I've done that on a number of occasions.
I wonder how people cope at the vast majority of bus stops that don't
have electronic signs.
<www,bustimes.org>
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Michael R N Dolbear
2018-12-11 17:28:26 UTC
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Post by David Cantrell
Post by b***@4maxw8u7q__fbimcvl7zx.gov
Its pretty useful to know if the next bus is 20 mins away and you could
walk to your destination faster. I've done that on a number of occasions.
I wonder how people cope at the vast majority of bus stops that don't
have electronic signs.
<www.bustimes.org>

does this show live information?

I clicked away and 'due' never showed.
--
Mike D
Graeme Wall
2018-12-11 21:02:59 UTC
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Post by Michael R N Dolbear
Post by David Cantrell
Post by b***@4maxw8u7q__fbimcvl7zx.gov
Its pretty useful to know if the next bus is 20 mins away and you could
walk to your destination faster. I've done that on a number of occasions.
I wonder how people cope at the vast majority of bus stops that don't
have electronic signs.
<www.bustimes.org>
does this show live information?
Does round here
Post by Michael R N Dolbear
I clicked away and 'due' never showed.
Don't think it does that, just gives the "live" time.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Mark
2018-12-12 12:12:58 UTC
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Post by Graeme Wall
Post by David Cantrell
Post by b***@4maxw8u7q__fbimcvl7zx.gov
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:00:31 +0000
Post by David Cantrell
The next bus display screens really aren't that important. The buses
will still run without them, and they have big signs on the front
telling you what route they're running on and where they're going, so
passengers can still get to their destinations.
Its pretty useful to know if the next bus is 20 mins away and you could
walk to your destination faster. I've done that on a number of occasions.
I wonder how people cope at the vast majority of bus stops that don't
have electronic signs.
<www,bustimes.org>
That could depend on the operator
2-3 years ago wandering around north Surrey 1 noticed that Tfl busses had
real time information but Surrey ones just had timetable information
tim...
2018-12-14 13:39:55 UTC
Reply
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Post by Graeme Wall
Post by David Cantrell
Post by b***@4maxw8u7q__fbimcvl7zx.gov
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 10:00:31 +0000
Post by David Cantrell
The next bus display screens really aren't that important. The buses
will still run without them, and they have big signs on the front
telling you what route they're running on and where they're going, so
passengers can still get to their destinations.
Its pretty useful to know if the next bus is 20 mins away and you could
walk to your destination faster. I've done that on a number of occasions.
I wonder how people cope at the vast majority of bus stops that don't
have electronic signs.
<www,bustimes.org>
Hm,

The bus stop that I used to use as a kid (and wait many hours at because the
once every 10 minutes bus did not come for 40 minutes) is completely missing
from that site

tim

Recliner
2018-12-06 16:48:05 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
"Tracker systems which rely on the O2 network have also been affected by
the outage, meaning countdown screens at London bus stops have stopped
working.
Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.
A TfL spokesperson said: "We're sorry that customers are unable to use
our Countdown screens at bus stops for live travel information.
This is a result of a nationwide O2 data outage. We are working with our
service provider to resolve this as soon as possible."
ps Actually, it's more likely that O2 working with *its* provider
[Ericsson] will get this thing resolved.
I don't think that TfL regards the Countdown displays on bus stops as a
high priority system. In fact, I didn't think it was being rolled out any
further, and may have a limited life. TfL would rather passengers used
their phones to get the data.
Richard J.
2018-12-06 20:54:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
"Tracker systems which rely on the O2 network have also been affected by
the outage, meaning countdown screens at London bus stops have stopped
working.
Screens which normally display the predicted arrival time of buses
across the capital are now blank.
A TfL spokesperson said: "We're sorry that customers are unable to use
our Countdown screens at bus stops for live travel information.
This is a result of a nationwide O2 data outage. We are working with our
service provider to resolve this as soon as possible."
ps Actually, it's more likely that O2 working with *its* provider
[Ericsson] will get this thing resolved.
I don't think that TfL regards the Countdown displays on bus stops as a
high priority system. In fact, I didn't think it was being rolled out any
further, and may have a limited life. TfL would rather passengers used
their phones to get the data.
Citymapper was working fine today as usual (unless you had an O2 phone of course).
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)
Offramp
2018-12-07 07:16:23 UTC
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I have heard that "occasionally the buses get calls over the radio from PPI companies and the like using auto-diallers!"
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