Discussion:
New road tunnel under the Thames
(too old to reply)
Robin9
2018-05-11 17:08:05 UTC
Permalink
A new tunnel under the Thames has been given planning approval. Th
usual
anti-motor vehicle fanatics are, predictably, out in force:

http://tinyurl.com/ydbvex4q

If I were to argue against this new tunnel, I would concentrate on the
hypocrisy of The Mayor and TfL, and the huge financial waste caused b
their
policies.

Essentially this new tunnel will be a supplement to the Blackwal
Tunnel.

Before TfL, the Blackwall Tunnel was congested northbound only in the
morning rush hour, Mondays to Fridays. In the late afternoon there wer

lengthy queues southbound and none at all northbound. I write with som

authority here because for years I worked in Dartford and drove each
morning southbound and returned northbound after work.

TfL re-arranged the northbound approach to the mouth of the tunnel a fe

years ago, with the result that huge queues of traffic are now normal
including on Sundays! North of the tunnel TfL, with their usual highl
suspect
enthusiasm for traffic lights, have quite unnecessarily installed ne
traffic
lights at Zetland Street, preventing traffic from flowing freely.

TfL and our beloved Mayor, with brazen hypocrisy, claim this new tunne
is
necessary because of congestion at Blackwall Tunnel! The anti-moto
car
brigade makes no reference to any of this in their various tirades. The
claim
the new tunnel is a waste of money. I agree, but not for the reason
they put
forward


--
Robin9
james mathew
2018-05-13 13:26:57 UTC
Permalink
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Paul Corfield
2018-05-14 00:14:56 UTC
Permalink
A new tunnel under the Thames has been given planning approval. The
http://tinyurl.com/ydbvex4q
If I were to argue against this new tunnel, I would concentrate on the
hypocrisy of The Mayor and TfL, and the huge financial waste caused by
their policies.
Essentially this new tunnel will be a supplement to the Blackwall
Tunnel.
Before TfL, the Blackwall Tunnel was congested northbound only in the
morning rush hour, Mondays to Fridays. In the late afternoon there were
lengthy queues southbound and none at all northbound. I write with some
authority here because for years I worked in Dartford and drove each
morning southbound and returned northbound after work.
TfL re-arranged the northbound approach to the mouth of the tunnel a few
years ago, with the result that huge queues of traffic are now normal
including on Sundays! North of the tunnel TfL, with their usual highly
suspect
enthusiasm for traffic lights, have quite unnecessarily installed new
traffic
lights at Zetland Street, preventing traffic from flowing freely.
TfL and our beloved Mayor, with brazen hypocrisy, claim this new tunnel
is necessary because of congestion at Blackwall Tunnel! The anti-motor
car brigade makes no reference to any of this in their various tirades.
They claim the new tunnel is a waste of money. I agree, but not for the reasons they put forward.
Well you cannot be surprised that people living in and around Greenwich and Woolwich have been particularly vocal on this given the appalling day to day traffic and congestion issues they have to tolerate. Air quality is pretty appalling and we all know what new transport infrastructure does, road or rail, - it generates additional trips if journey times fall.

There are several other interesting factors.

1. TfL has no binding agreement with Newham Council. Both parties are in legal dispute.
2. RB Greenwich and Tower Hamlets apparently do have agreements tentatively in plae but yet signed off. Several RBG Councillors now want to undo the agreement because they've realised they've been "done over" partly by TfL and partly by their own crappy negotiation stance. It remains to be seen if RBG will be brave / brazen enough to undo what's already been agreed and go back to the drawing board in terms of additional protections for their residents.
3. It remains to be seen whether TfL can actually get a PFI type deal in place to build the tunnel. I am very sceptical about this unless they've got a whole load of outline deals already scoped with potential constructors of the tunnel. PFI deals can take years to finalise and fund and the next Mayoral election is less than 2 years away. I doubt a spade will have been put in the ground before May 2020.
4. TfL have had a number of additional conditions imposed on them by the Secretary of State. During the inquiry stage TfL pulled back on his commitments to provide new bus routes through the tunnel. The new levels were worse than had been evaluated in their case to the inquiry. Mr Grayling has added a condition that forces TfL to provide the original level of bus services (oh dear more cost and expense that they can't afford).
5. A similar condition has been imposed about provision of shuttle transport through the tunnel for pedestrians and cyclists. Again something that TfL were less than enthused about.
6. I think there will be considerable outcry about the planned imposition of tolls on the Blackwall Tunnel and Woolwich Free Ferry. I thought there was very long standing legal precedent that ensures the Woolwich Ferry remains free. Perhaps TfL have overturned this but I can foresee a massive reaction against charges to use that link.

I have very mixed views about the Silvertown tunnel. I can see the "need" for better cross river transport in East London. However a road tunnel (or bridge) is likely to have massive traffic and developmental impacts which would be entirely contrary to things like air quality strategy. I still don't think it will be built because of funding and political issues - the 2020 election will likely stymie the start of construction and you can guarantee it will be a huge issue in what are key Labour constituencies for the Mayor / Assembly members.
--
Paul C
via Google
Robin
2018-05-14 07:48:31 UTC
Permalink
On 14/05/2018 01:14, Paul Corfield wrote:

<snip>
6. ...I thought there was very long standing legal precedent that ensures the Woolwich Ferry remains free. ...
Yes in as much as removing the ferry or introducing tolls would require
an amendment to the Metropolitan Board of Works (Various Powers) Act
1885. I have no feel for how hard it'd be to find space in a Bill to do
that and get it through.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Offramp
2018-05-14 09:47:49 UTC
Permalink
Well you cannot be surprised that people living in and around Greenwich and Woolwich have been particularly vocal on this given the appalling day to day traffic and congestion issues they have to tolerate...
In the last 25 years Greenwich seems to have done amazingly well as regards public transport. There are the two DLR station, Greenwich and, above all, Cutty Sark; there is North Greenwich station and its bus hub; there is a cable car, which is not to be sneezed at; the river services have been increased and made oyster-friendly LOL; I am not sure about the buses, but buses have increased all over London.

But the Greenwichoids must have their little kvetch. They must wail, weep and keen because they want shiny things.
Robin9
2018-05-14 16:19:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin9
A new tunnel under the Thames has been given planning approval. Th
usual anti-motor vehicle fanatics are, predictably, out in force
'Fury as new £1billion tunnel under the Thames finally gets the gree
light after 13 years' (http://tinyurl.com/ydbvex4q
If I were to argue against this new tunnel, I would concentrate on the
hypocrisy of The Mayor and TfL, and the huge financial waste caused b
their policies
Essentially this new tunnel will be a supplement to the Blackwal
Tunnel.
Before TfL, the Blackwall Tunnel was congested northbound only in the
morning rush hour, Mondays to Fridays. In the late afternoon there wer
lengthy queues southbound and none at all northbound. I write with som
authority here because for years I worked in Dartford and drove each
morning southbound and returned northbound after work
TfL re-arranged the northbound approach to the mouth of the tunnel
fe
years ago, with the result that huge queues of traffic are now normal
including on Sundays! North of the tunnel TfL, with their usual highl
suspect
enthusiasm for traffic lights, have quite unnecessarily installed ne
traffic
lights at Zetland Street, preventing traffic from flowing freely
TfL and our beloved Mayor, with brazen hypocrisy, claim this new tunne
is necessary because of congestion at Blackwall Tunnel! Th
anti-moto
car brigade makes no reference to any of this in their various tirades
They claim the new tunnel is a waste of money. I agree, but not fo
the reasons they put forward.
Well you cannot be surprised that people living in and around Greenwic
and Woolwich have been particularly vocal on this given the appallin
day to day traffic and congestion issues they have to tolerate. Ai
quality is pretty appalling and we all know what new transpor
infrastructure does, road or rail, - it generates additional trips i
journey times fall
There are several other interesting factors
1. TfL has no binding agreement with Newham Council. Both parties ar
in legal dispute
2. RB Greenwich and Tower Hamlets apparently do have agreement
tentatively in plae but yet signed off. Several RBG Councillors no
want to undo the agreement because they've realised they've been "don
over" partly by TfL and partly by their own crappy negotiation stance.
It remains to be seen if RBG will be brave / brazen enough to und
what's already been agreed and go back to the drawing board in terms o
additional protections for their residents
3. It remains to be seen whether TfL can actually get a PFI type dea
in place to build the tunnel. I am very sceptical about this unles
they've got a whole load of outline deals already scoped with potentia
constructors of the tunnel. PFI deals can take years to finalise an
fund and the next Mayoral election is less than 2 years away. I doubt
spade will have been put in the ground before May 2020
4. TfL have had a number of additional conditions imposed on them b
the Secretary of State. During the inquiry stage TfL pulled back on hi
commitments to provide new bus routes through the tunnel. The ne
levels were worse than had been evaluated in their case to the inquiry.
Mr Grayling has added a condition that forces TfL to provide th
original level of bus services (oh dear more cost and expense that the
can't afford)
5. A similar condition has been imposed about provision of shuttl
transport through the tunnel for pedestrians and cyclists. Agai
something that TfL were less than enthused about
6. I think there will be considerable outcry about the planne
imposition of tolls on the Blackwall Tunnel and Woolwich Free Ferry.
thought there was very long standing legal precedent that ensures th
Woolwich Ferry remains free. Perhaps TfL have overturned this but I ca
foresee a massive reaction against charges to use that link
I have very mixed views about the Silvertown tunnel. I can see the
"need" for better cross river transport in East London. However a road
tunnel (or bridge) is likely to have massive traffic and developmental
impacts which would be entirely contrary to things like air quality
strategy. I still don't think it will be built because of funding and
political issues - the 2020 election will likely stymie the start of
construction and you can guarantee it will be a huge issue in what are
key Labour constituencies for the Mayor / Assembly members.
--
Paul C
via Google
Thanks for that.

I must admit I was unaware of this project until I came across that
linked article, so I don't know what objections have been put forward by
local residents. I wasn't referring to them when I mentioned the usual
anti-road fanatics: Friends Of the Earth; the Green Party, Caroline
Pidgeon; The Campaign For Better Transport and so on.

As far as the environment is concerned, the main point, and one I've
made before, is that keeping traffic moving at a sensible speed produces
less air pollution than is created by stationary or very slow moving
traffic. The huge increase in traffic queues at the southern approach
(northbound) to the Blackwall Tunnel caused by TfL must have
substantially increased traffic fumes so I can well believe that local
people are alarmed, even though their alarm might be premature.

I'm surprised about the intervention of the SOS for Transport. I didn't
realise he had a horse in this race. This is a London project run by
TfL, the statutory body with responsibility for trunk roads in the
London area who are also organising the finance. The Mayor is ultimate
arbiter of planning matters in London. What role has the SOS to play and
what authority does he have to dictate to TfL how they should proceed
with this project?

I certainly agree that the imposition of tolls on the Blackwall Tunnel
will arouse great anger. As I've said before, motorists are the sleeping
tigers of London politics. It best not to awaken them.
--
Robin9
Robin9
2018-05-17 13:17:57 UTC
Permalink
On the subject of increased air pollution caused by wrong-heade
policies about roads, I doubt very much if H. M. Government will us
that in their defence:

http://tinyurl.com/ycjkd9j


--
Robin9
jon b
2018-05-29 08:42:42 UTC
Permalink
The project was designated, at the request of TfL, as a Nationally Significant Infrastructure Project, and has therefore been approved via a Development Consent Order. The Secretary of State is the determining authority for DCOs which explains his interest. More information on the project, including the epic SoS decision letter here: https://infrastructure.planninginspectorate.gov.uk/projects/london/silvertown-tunnel/
miken man
2018-05-30 03:06:44 UTC
Permalink
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