Discussion:
Sadiq's looming poll tax moment
(too old to reply)
Recliner
2018-12-09 09:23:54 UTC
Permalink
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ulez-fee-the-new-london-pollution-charge-may-be-mayor-sadiq-khans-poll-tax-moment-kf8h2z5hm?shareToken=50fd0db33f7e78ede69332bfd5bf9172>
Robin9
2018-12-09 11:42:57 UTC
Permalink
I'm unskilled at political prophesising so I won't try to predict
what will happen

I've said many times that motorists are the sleeping tigers of
London politics and that if they ever wake up and recognise
what is going on, their unified reaction could sweep away
several dishonest, hypocritical politicians. As I've posted before,
if this Mayor or any of his predecessors had genuinely been
concerned about air pollution in London, they would have
stopped making our roads unfit for road vehicles.

In my neighbourhood, Whipps Cross Roundabout, which has
always done a splendid job of processing three large, constant
streams of traffic, is now being replaced by a complex system with . .

yes, oh so predictably . . . . numerous traffic lights. The increase in
traffic queues and air pollution will be horrendous


--
Robin9
Recliner
2018-12-09 13:25:25 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 9 Dec 2018 11:42:57 +0000, Robin9
Post by Robin9
I'm unskilled at political prophesising so I won't try to predict
what will happen.
I've said many times that motorists are the sleeping tigers of
London politics and that if they ever wake up and recognise
what is going on, their unified reaction could sweep away
several dishonest, hypocritical politicians. As I've posted before,
if this Mayor or any of his predecessors had genuinely been
concerned about air pollution in London, they would have
stopped making our roads unfit for road vehicles.
In my neighbourhood, Whipps Cross Roundabout, which has
always done a splendid job of processing three large, constant
streams of traffic, is now being replaced by a complex system with . . .
.
yes, oh so predictably . . . . numerous traffic lights. The increase in
traffic queues and air pollution will be horrendous.
Yes, I think Sadiq may be taking aim at a rather large, belligerent
target. It seems that far more motorists and vans will be affected by
this new charge than had been suggested. This looming charge (really,
more of a new tax) will be a pretty good way of getting Shaun Bailey
elected in 2020.

Sadiq only has to look at Paris today to get a feeling for what
happens when you alienate a lot of the population. Brits aren't as
violent, but they could still make like difficult for him.
Roland Perry
2018-12-09 14:55:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ulez-fee-the-new-london-pollution-
charge-may-be-mayor-sadiq-khans-poll-tax-moment-kf8h2z5hm?shareToken=50
fd0db33f7e78ede69332bfd5bf9172>
"the charge, levied on older and more polluting vehicles...
applies to nearly all diesel cars and vans licensed before
September 2015"

In other words, not just "older" ones, but almost all that aren't
effectively brand new. And of course the ones which escape the charge
are precisely the generation where some manufacturers were recently
caught fiddling the testing.

If they were genuinely wanting this charge to persuade people to buy/use
less-polluting vehicles, it should have been set for diesels at the
previous 2009 Euro-5 standard, because not everyone can afford to scrap
their three year old car.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-12-09 16:35:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ulez-fee-the-new-london-pollution-
charge-may-be-mayor-sadiq-khans-poll-tax-moment-kf8h2z5hm?shareToken=50
fd0db33f7e78ede69332bfd5bf9172>
"the charge, levied on older and more polluting vehicles...
applies to nearly all diesel cars and vans licensed before
September 2015"
In other words, not just "older" ones, but almost all that aren't
effectively brand new. And of course the ones which escape the charge
are precisely the generation where some manufacturers were recently
caught fiddling the testing.
If they were genuinely wanting this charge to persuade people to buy/use
less-polluting vehicles, it should have been set for diesels at the
previous 2009 Euro-5 standard, because not everyone can afford to scrap
their three year old car.
Yes, this is turning into a hefty stealth tax, affecting far more vehicles
and their owners than was previously recognised. As you say, other than the
newest models, practically all diesels would incur the daily tax. He'll
certainly be voted out if he doesn't back down in some way (either delay
it, have more exceptions, or focus only on much older vericles).

Even though I almost never drive inside the North and South Circulars these
days, I realise that the dealer that services my car is just inside it.
That would mean 2-3 days @ £12.50 a day would be incurred any time it needs
work, including the annual service.
Roland Perry
2018-12-09 17:15:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ulez-fee-the-new-london-pollution-
charge-may-be-mayor-sadiq-khans-poll-tax-moment-kf8h2z5hm?shareToken=50
fd0db33f7e78ede69332bfd5bf9172>
"the charge, levied on older and more polluting vehicles...
applies to nearly all diesel cars and vans licensed before
September 2015"
In other words, not just "older" ones, but almost all that aren't
effectively brand new. And of course the ones which escape the charge
are precisely the generation where some manufacturers were recently
caught fiddling the testing.
If they were genuinely wanting this charge to persuade people to buy/use
less-polluting vehicles, it should have been set for diesels at the
previous 2009 Euro-5 standard, because not everyone can afford to scrap
their three year old car.
Yes, this is turning into a hefty stealth tax, affecting far more vehicles
and their owners than was previously recognised. As you say, other than the
newest models, practically all diesels would incur the daily tax.
Although I don't drive inside the M25 very much (mainly rat-runs around
accident blockages on the M25) I might have not so willingly recently
bought a Euro-4 diesel car if a Euro-5 one would have been OK according
to the mayor.

Of course, if I hadn't bought that Euro-4, someone else would have done,
so it's not changed the overall pollution potential at all!
Post by Recliner
He'll certainly be voted out if he doesn't back down in some way
(either delay it, have more exceptions, or focus only on much older
vericles).
Backdating to Euro-5 is the obvious parachute.
Post by Recliner
Even though I almost never drive inside the North and South Circulars these
days, I realise that the dealer that services my car is just inside it.
work, including the annual service.
Back in the day they were talking about a "congestion charge" for
Cambridge; a bit like the London one, but on a much smaller scale.

One of the reasons I opposed it was that as someone living [then] just
[maybe a few 100yds] outside the cordon, it would have been a stealth
tax on me ever going into the City.

People inside the cordon would not have very often passed the cordon
[outbound] in their normal lives, and hence would rarely have had to
pay.
--
Roland Perry
b***@5aqdpqwecmk2tw6671pdv08mb.net
2018-12-10 09:56:31 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 9 Dec 2018 17:15:08 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ulez-fee-the-new-london-pollution-
charge-may-be-mayor-sadiq-khans-poll-tax-moment-kf8h2z5hm?shareToken=50
fd0db33f7e78ede69332bfd5bf9172>
"the charge, levied on older and more polluting vehicles...
applies to nearly all diesel cars and vans licensed before
September 2015"
In other words, not just "older" ones, but almost all that aren't
effectively brand new. And of course the ones which escape the charge
are precisely the generation where some manufacturers were recently
caught fiddling the testing.
If they were genuinely wanting this charge to persuade people to buy/use
less-polluting vehicles, it should have been set for diesels at the
previous 2009 Euro-5 standard, because not everyone can afford to scrap
their three year old car.
Yes, this is turning into a hefty stealth tax, affecting far more vehicles
and their owners than was previously recognised. As you say, other than the
newest models, practically all diesels would incur the daily tax.
Although I don't drive inside the M25 very much (mainly rat-runs around
accident blockages on the M25) I might have not so willingly recently
bought a Euro-4 diesel car if a Euro-5 one would have been OK according
to the mayor.
All the mayors idiotic tax will achieve is sending perfectly good cars to
the scrapheap too early which - if they're replaced - will released a whole
lot more pollution into the atmosphere. That and a huge rise in the number of
cloned and foreign plates being used inside the zone which coupled with the
total lack of traffic police these days will just lead to people taking the
piss.

All this because of his dogmatic attachment to his no rise in fares policy
and the screwup that is crossrail.
Post by Roland Perry
People inside the cordon would not have very often passed the cordon
[outbound] in their normal lives, and hence would rarely have had to
pay.
Unlike with the congestion charge zone, this new zone won't have just an in/out
line you can avoid. Even if you start your journey in the zone and never leave
it you'll still apparently be caught by ANPR (presumably yet to be installed)
and charged/fined.
Roland Perry
2018-12-10 14:11:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@5aqdpqwecmk2tw6671pdv08mb.net
On Sun, 9 Dec 2018 17:15:08 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ulez-fee-the-new-london-pollution-
charge-may-be-mayor-sadiq-khans-poll-tax-moment-kf8h2z5hm?shareToken=50
fd0db33f7e78ede69332bfd5bf9172>
"the charge, levied on older and more polluting vehicles...
applies to nearly all diesel cars and vans licensed before
September 2015"
In other words, not just "older" ones, but almost all that aren't
effectively brand new. And of course the ones which escape the charge
are precisely the generation where some manufacturers were recently
caught fiddling the testing.
If they were genuinely wanting this charge to persuade people to buy/use
less-polluting vehicles, it should have been set for diesels at the
previous 2009 Euro-5 standard, because not everyone can afford to scrap
their three year old car.
Yes, this is turning into a hefty stealth tax, affecting far more vehicles
and their owners than was previously recognised. As you say, other than the
newest models, practically all diesels would incur the daily tax.
Although I don't drive inside the M25 very much (mainly rat-runs around
accident blockages on the M25) I might have not so willingly recently
bought a Euro-4 diesel car if a Euro-5 one would have been OK according
to the mayor.
All the mayors idiotic tax will achieve is sending perfectly good cars to
the scrapheap too early
I really don't think anyone is going to scrap a 2013 car because of this
tax.
Post by b***@5aqdpqwecmk2tw6671pdv08mb.net
which - if they're replaced - will released a whole
lot more pollution into the atmosphere. That and a huge rise in the number of
cloned and foreign plates being used inside the zone which coupled with the
total lack of traffic police these days will just lead to people taking the
piss.
All this because of his dogmatic attachment to his no rise in fares policy
and the screwup that is crossrail.
Post by Roland Perry
People inside the cordon would not have very often passed the cordon
[outbound] in their normal lives, and hence would rarely have had to
pay.
Unlike with the congestion charge zone, this new zone won't have just an in/out
line you can avoid.
And I was describing the Cambridge congestion charge, not London's
Post by b***@5aqdpqwecmk2tw6671pdv08mb.net
Even if you start your journey in the zone and never leave it you'll
still apparently be caught by ANPR (presumably yet to be installed) and
charged/fined.
I was mainly addressing Recliner's comment that his car dealership was
just inside the [London] cordon. Which suggests he's starting just
outside.

While there does have to be some line drawn on the map, it's
disproportionate that someone whose errands takes them as little as
perhaps a mile inside on an irregular basis should be charged as much as
someone driving for hours inside.

Accidental experiments, in Cambridge again, appear to show that people
will go to considerable lengths to avoid paying quite small fees for
parking (or petrol at 1p/litre cheaper).

Getting back to other modes of transport for a moment, what if one of
the radial railways suffers a glitch, and people at a station just
inside the cordon where the trains have ground to a halt, start phoning
home (maybe one station beyond the cordon) for a lift, then this stealth
tax on the rescue mission is going to grate severely.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-12-10 14:33:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@5aqdpqwecmk2tw6671pdv08mb.net
On Sun, 9 Dec 2018 17:15:08 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ulez-fee-the-new-london-pollution-
charge-may-be-mayor-sadiq-khans-poll-tax-moment-kf8h2z5hm?shareToken=50
fd0db33f7e78ede69332bfd5bf9172>
"the charge, levied on older and more polluting vehicles...
applies to nearly all diesel cars and vans licensed before
September 2015"
In other words, not just "older" ones, but almost all that aren't
effectively brand new. And of course the ones which escape the charge
are precisely the generation where some manufacturers were recently
caught fiddling the testing.
If they were genuinely wanting this charge to persuade people to buy/use
less-polluting vehicles, it should have been set for diesels at the
previous 2009 Euro-5 standard, because not everyone can afford to scrap
their three year old car.
Yes, this is turning into a hefty stealth tax, affecting far more vehicles
and their owners than was previously recognised. As you say, other than the
newest models, practically all diesels would incur the daily tax.
Although I don't drive inside the M25 very much (mainly rat-runs around
accident blockages on the M25) I might have not so willingly recently
bought a Euro-4 diesel car if a Euro-5 one would have been OK according
to the mayor.
All the mayors idiotic tax will achieve is sending perfectly good cars to
the scrapheap too early
I really don't think anyone is going to scrap a 2013 car because of this
tax.
Post by b***@5aqdpqwecmk2tw6671pdv08mb.net
which - if they're replaced - will released a whole
lot more pollution into the atmosphere. That and a huge rise in the number of
cloned and foreign plates being used inside the zone which coupled with the
total lack of traffic police these days will just lead to people taking the
piss.
All this because of his dogmatic attachment to his no rise in fares policy
and the screwup that is crossrail.
Post by Roland Perry
People inside the cordon would not have very often passed the cordon
[outbound] in their normal lives, and hence would rarely have had to
pay.
Unlike with the congestion charge zone, this new zone won't have just an in/out
line you can avoid.
And I was describing the Cambridge congestion charge, not London's
Post by b***@5aqdpqwecmk2tw6671pdv08mb.net
Even if you start your journey in the zone and never leave it you'll
still apparently be caught by ANPR (presumably yet to be installed) and
charged/fined.
I was mainly addressing Recliner's comment that his car dealership was
just inside the [London] cordon. Which suggests he's starting just
outside.
The garage is perhaps a quarter of a mile inside the zone. I live a
few miles away, outside the zone. You don't get Jaguar main dealers in
every borough.
Post by Roland Perry
While there does have to be some line drawn on the map, it's
disproportionate that someone whose errands takes them as little as
perhaps a mile inside on an irregular basis should be charged as much as
someone driving for hours inside.
Accidental experiments, in Cambridge again, appear to show that people
will go to considerable lengths to avoid paying quite small fees for
parking (or petrol at 1p/litre cheaper).
Getting back to other modes of transport for a moment, what if one of
the radial railways suffers a glitch, and people at a station just
inside the cordon where the trains have ground to a halt, start phoning
home (maybe one station beyond the cordon) for a lift, then this stealth
tax on the rescue mission is going to grate severely.
Yes, there will be many such examples.

Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small number of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month), and only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.
Roland Perry
2018-12-10 14:57:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small number of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month), and only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.
The authorities seem wedded to the idea of nickel-and-diming everyone
whenever they can. It'd also be great to get half a dozen free trips at
the Dartford Crossing a year, or maybe half a dozen peak-time rail fares
at the off-peak rate.

Neither would have any measurable impact on the volume of 'traffic', and
are simply a stealth tax on distress purchases.
--
Roland Perry
b***@uhr435v_z.net
2018-12-10 16:28:40 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:57:35 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small number of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month), and only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.
The authorities seem wedded to the idea of nickel-and-diming everyone
whenever they can. It'd also be great to get half a dozen free trips at
the Dartford Crossing a year, or maybe half a dozen peak-time rail fares
at the off-peak rate.
The new dart charge was designed to make it a PITA to pay in order to extract
fines from those who don't. Usually the only time I go over that bridge is
when I'm heading to Dover to go to France and once on the continent paying
that sodding charge is the last thing on my mind. It was a damn site easier
just to hand over a couple of quid and forget all about it.
Post by Roland Perry
Neither would have any measurable impact on the volume of 'traffic', and
are simply a stealth tax on distress purchases.
From when I've been through, removing the barriers has made little difference
to the southbound and almost no difference to the northbound which still backs
back to the A20 on a w/e.
tim...
2018-12-14 13:13:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@uhr435v_z.net
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:57:35 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small number of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month), and only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.
The authorities seem wedded to the idea of nickel-and-diming everyone
whenever they can. It'd also be great to get half a dozen free trips at
the Dartford Crossing a year, or maybe half a dozen peak-time rail fares
at the off-peak rate.
The new dart charge was designed to make it a PITA to pay in order to extract
fines from those who don't.
ITYF that's Cock-up, not Conspiracy

tim
b***@hnrm7i2rws6kixs.gov.uk
2018-12-14 15:21:03 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 13:13:53 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by b***@uhr435v_z.net
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:57:35 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small number of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month), and only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.
The authorities seem wedded to the idea of nickel-and-diming everyone
whenever they can. It'd also be great to get half a dozen free trips at
the Dartford Crossing a year, or maybe half a dozen peak-time rail fares
at the off-peak rate.
The new dart charge was designed to make it a PITA to pay in order to extract
fines from those who don't.
ITYF that's Cock-up, not Conspiracy
I'm not sure it is in this case. A significant proportion of the traffic
will be ad hoc trips of cars trucks and vans just passing through or heading to
the ports who they know will probably forget (regular users will simply have an
account). There was no reason not to retain a few pay by cash or contactless
kiosks and its not as it its made a huge difference to the queues anyway
especially on the northbound through the tunnel which is is the real bottleneck.

One can only hope that now sense has finally prevailed on the Severn crossing
and the charge is to be removed, the same can be done at Dartford.
tim...
2018-12-14 16:10:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@hnrm7i2rws6kixs.gov.uk
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 13:13:53 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by b***@uhr435v_z.net
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:57:35 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small number of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month), and only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.
The authorities seem wedded to the idea of nickel-and-diming everyone
whenever they can. It'd also be great to get half a dozen free trips at
the Dartford Crossing a year, or maybe half a dozen peak-time rail fares
at the off-peak rate.
The new dart charge was designed to make it a PITA to pay in order to extract
fines from those who don't.
ITYF that's Cock-up, not Conspiracy
I'm not sure it is in this case. A significant proportion of the traffic
will be ad hoc trips of cars trucks and vans just passing through or heading to
the ports who they know will probably forget (regular users will simply have an
account). There was no reason not to retain a few pay by cash or contactless
kiosks and its not as it its made a huge difference to the queues anyway
especially on the northbound through the tunnel which is is the real bottleneck.
I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.

Northbound there's enough zig-zagging of traffic trying to get into the
correct lane of a tunnel already, plus the problem of the junction joining
only a few 100 yards before the tunnel

I agree that something along the lines of pay stations at service areas on
the M2/20/25 would be a useful feature.
Post by b***@hnrm7i2rws6kixs.gov.uk
One can only hope that now sense has finally prevailed on the Severn crossing
and the charge is to be removed, the same can be done at Dartford.
the politics are different

plus the small matter of having to fund the third crossing

tim
b***@6ypxqy0xm9.edu
2018-12-14 16:43:01 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 16:10:59 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by b***@hnrm7i2rws6kixs.gov.uk
will be ad hoc trips of cars trucks and vans just passing through or heading to
the ports who they know will probably forget (regular users will simply have an
account). There was no reason not to retain a few pay by cash or contactless
kiosks and its not as it its made a huge difference to the queues anyway
especially on the northbound through the tunnel which is is the real bottleneck.
I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.
There'd be a bit more queuing , but I doubt it would make a huge amount of
difference. The regular users would still sail through the non toll sections.
Post by tim...
Northbound there's enough zig-zagging of traffic trying to get into the
correct lane of a tunnel already, plus the problem of the junction joining
only a few 100 yards before the tunnel
Northbound is a clusterfuck anyway. Putting a few toll booths back won't
make much difference.
Post by tim...
I agree that something along the lines of pay stations at service areas on
the M2/20/25 would be a useful feature.
Thats certainly an idea.
Post by tim...
Post by b***@hnrm7i2rws6kixs.gov.uk
One can only hope that now sense has finally prevailed on the Severn crossing
and the charge is to be removed, the same can be done at Dartford.
the politics are different
Not really. Both are simply a case of "bridge needs to be paid for" turning
into "we've got a nice little earner here".
Post by tim...
plus the small matter of having to fund the third crossing
Widening and straightening the west bore of the Blackwall tunnel and replacing
some of the traffics lights on the A12 with under/overpasses would probably
cost a fraction of the price and significantly improve the northbound flow
across the river.
John Williamson
2018-12-14 17:49:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@6ypxqy0xm9.edu
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 16:10:59 -0000
Post by tim...
I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.
There'd be a bit more queuing , but I doubt it would make a huge amount of
difference. The regular users would still sail through the non toll sections.
You'd need barriers on the non-paying lanes to stop people who need to
pay trying to get through the "free" lanes. Then you will get people
reversing into the oncoming queue to get to a pay booth.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.
Roland Perry
2018-12-14 18:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Williamson
Post by b***@6ypxqy0xm9.edu
There'd be a bit more queuing , but I doubt it would make a huge amount of
difference. The regular users would still sail through the non toll sections.
You'd need barriers on the non-paying lanes to stop people who need to
pay trying to get through the "free" lanes. Then you will get people
reversing into the oncoming queue to get to a pay booth.
Nonsense! You ANPR everyone - like they do now - and people who stop to
pay get ticked off the list just like people who have accounts, or pay
later online. Leaving just the people who haven't paid to be sent
penalty notices.
--
Roland Perry
b***@pp3k5ju4bc8g.ac.uk
2018-12-16 09:26:02 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 17:49:25 +0000
Post by John Williamson
Post by b***@6ypxqy0xm9.edu
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 16:10:59 -0000
Post by tim...
I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.
There'd be a bit more queuing , but I doubt it would make a huge amount of
difference. The regular users would still sail through the non toll sections.
You'd need barriers on the non-paying lanes to stop people who need to
pay trying to get through the "free" lanes. Then you will get people
reversing into the oncoming queue to get to a pay booth.
Huh? People would be perfectly free to choose the free lanes if they want,
why would you need barriers between them and the voluntary pay by cash gates?
tim...
2018-12-14 17:56:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@6ypxqy0xm9.edu
Post by tim...
plus the small matter of having to fund the third crossing
Widening and straightening the west bore of the Blackwall tunnel and replacing
some of the traffics lights on the A12 with under/overpasses would probably
cost a fraction of the price and significantly improve the northbound flow
across the river.
but nowhere near as much as a new 2+2 tunnel

tim
Robin9
2018-12-15 10:34:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@6ypxqy0xm9.edu
Widening and straightening the west bore of the Blackwall tunnel an
replacing
some of the traffics lights on the A12 with under/overpasses woul
probably
cost a fraction of the price and significantly improve the northboun
flow
across the river.
Absolutely! I could not agree more


--
Robin9
Someone Somewhere
2018-12-15 13:25:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@6ypxqy0xm9.edu
Widening and straightening the west bore of the Blackwall tunnel and replacing
some of the traffics lights on the A12 with under/overpasses would probably
cost a fraction of the price and significantly improve the northbound flow
across the river.
Absolutely! I could not agree more.
And what would you do during the works? The Blackwall tunnel approaches
can be a nightmare anytime of the day and night at the moment, having
that permanently for months or years is really not a brilliant idea.
Robin
2018-12-14 17:12:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by b***@hnrm7i2rws6kixs.gov.uk
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 13:13:53 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by b***@uhr435v_z.net
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:57:35 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small number of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month), and only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.
The authorities seem wedded to the idea of nickel-and-diming everyone
whenever they can. It'd also be great to get half a dozen free trips at
the Dartford Crossing a year, or maybe half a dozen peak-time rail fares
at the off-peak rate.
The new dart charge was designed to make it a PITA to pay in order to extract
fines from those who don't.
ITYF that's Cock-up, not Conspiracy
I'm not sure it is in this case. A significant proportion of the traffic
will be ad hoc trips of cars trucks and vans just passing through or heading to
the ports who they know will probably forget (regular users will simply have an
account). There was no reason not to retain a few pay by cash or contactless
kiosks and its not as it its made a huge difference to the queues anyway
especially on the northbound through the tunnel which is is the real bottleneck.
I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.
Northbound there's enough zig-zagging of traffic trying to get into the
correct lane of a tunnel already, plus the problem of the junction
joining only a few 100 yards before the tunnel
I agree that something along the lines of pay stations at service areas
on the M2/20/25 would be a useful feature.
You can pay by phone so would this be for those who don't have a mobile
phone or those who want to pay in cash?
Post by tim...
Post by b***@hnrm7i2rws6kixs.gov.uk
One can only hope that now sense has finally prevailed on the Severn crossing
and the charge is to be removed, the same can be done at Dartford.
the politics are different
plus the small matter of having to fund the third crossing
tim
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Roland Perry
2018-12-14 17:29:22 UTC
Permalink
In message <ae3c209b-13b5-a02a-7f41-***@outlook.com>, at
17:12:41 on Fri, 14 Dec 2018, Robin <***@outlook.com> remarked:

[Dartford crossing charge]
Post by Robin
Post by tim...
I agree that something along the lines of pay stations at service
areas on the M2/20/25 would be a useful feature.
You can pay by phone
Do they give the phone number on the roadside signage?
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2018-12-14 17:55:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin
Post by tim...
Post by b***@hnrm7i2rws6kixs.gov.uk
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 13:13:53 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by b***@uhr435v_z.net
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:57:35 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small number of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month), and only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.
The authorities seem wedded to the idea of nickel-and-diming everyone
whenever they can. It'd also be great to get half a dozen free trips at
the Dartford Crossing a year, or maybe half a dozen peak-time rail fares
at the off-peak rate.
The new dart charge was designed to make it a PITA to pay in order to extract
fines from those who don't.
ITYF that's Cock-up, not Conspiracy
I'm not sure it is in this case. A significant proportion of the traffic
will be ad hoc trips of cars trucks and vans just passing through or heading to
the ports who they know will probably forget (regular users will simply have an
account). There was no reason not to retain a few pay by cash or contactless
kiosks and its not as it its made a huge difference to the queues anyway
especially on the northbound through the tunnel which is is the real bottleneck.
I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.
Northbound there's enough zig-zagging of traffic trying to get into the
correct lane of a tunnel already, plus the problem of the junction
joining only a few 100 yards before the tunnel
I agree that something along the lines of pay stations at service areas
on the M2/20/25 would be a useful feature.
You can pay by phone so would this be for those who don't have a mobile
phone or those who want to pay in cash?
It'll be for those who don't know the number to phone because they didn't
have time to take it down as they drove past (if it's even there - I forget)

tim
Graeme Wall
2018-12-14 18:40:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Robin
Post by tim...
Post by b***@hnrm7i2rws6kixs.gov.uk
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 13:13:53 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by b***@uhr435v_z.net
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:57:35 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small number of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month), and only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.
The authorities seem wedded to the idea of nickel-and-diming everyone
whenever they can. It'd also be great to get half a dozen free trips at
the Dartford Crossing a year, or maybe half a dozen peak-time rail fares
at the off-peak rate.
The new dart charge was designed to make it a PITA to pay in order to extract
fines from those who don't.
ITYF that's Cock-up, not Conspiracy
I'm not sure it is in this case. A significant proportion of the traffic
will be ad hoc trips of cars trucks and vans just passing through or heading to
the ports who they know will probably forget (regular users will simply have an
account). There was no reason not to retain a few pay by cash or contactless
kiosks and its not as it its made a huge difference to the queues anyway
especially on the northbound through the tunnel which is is the real bottleneck.
I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.
Northbound there's enough zig-zagging of traffic trying to get into
the correct lane of a tunnel already, plus the problem of the
junction joining only a few 100 yards before the tunnel
I agree that something along the lines of pay stations at service
areas on the M2/20/25 would be a useful feature.
You can pay by phone so would this be for those who don't have a
mobile phone or those who want to pay in cash?
It'll be for those who don't know the number to phone because they
didn't have time to take it down as they drove past (if it's even there
- I forget)
How do you take it down while driving?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
tim...
2018-12-14 19:17:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Robin
Post by tim...
Post by b***@hnrm7i2rws6kixs.gov.uk
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 13:13:53 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by b***@uhr435v_z.net
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:57:35 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small number of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month), and only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.
The authorities seem wedded to the idea of nickel-and-diming everyone
whenever they can. It'd also be great to get half a dozen free trips at
the Dartford Crossing a year, or maybe half a dozen peak-time rail fares
at the off-peak rate.
The new dart charge was designed to make it a PITA to pay in order
to
extract
fines from those who don't.
ITYF that's Cock-up, not Conspiracy
I'm not sure it is in this case. A significant proportion of the traffic
will be ad hoc trips of cars trucks and vans just passing through or heading to
the ports who they know will probably forget (regular users will simply have an
account). There was no reason not to retain a few pay by cash or contactless
kiosks and its not as it its made a huge difference to the queues anyway
especially on the northbound through the tunnel which is is the real bottleneck.
I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.
Northbound there's enough zig-zagging of traffic trying to get into the
correct lane of a tunnel already, plus the problem of the junction
joining only a few 100 yards before the tunnel
I agree that something along the lines of pay stations at service areas
on the M2/20/25 would be a useful feature.
You can pay by phone so would this be for those who don't have a mobile
phone or those who want to pay in cash?
It'll be for those who don't know the number to phone because they didn't
have time to take it down as they drove past (if it's even there - I forget)
How do you take it down while driving?
you don't - your passenger does - if you have one of course
Robin
2018-12-14 21:05:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Robin
Post by tim...
Post by b***@hnrm7i2rws6kixs.gov.uk
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 13:13:53 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by b***@uhr435v_z.net
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:57:35 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small number of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month), and only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.
The authorities seem wedded to the idea of nickel-and-diming everyone
whenever they can. It'd also be great to get half a dozen free trips at
the Dartford Crossing a year, or maybe half a dozen peak-time rail fares
at the off-peak rate.
The new dart charge was designed to make it a PITA to pay in order to extract
fines from those who don't.
ITYF that's Cock-up, not Conspiracy
I'm not sure it is in this case. A significant proportion of the traffic
will be ad hoc trips of cars trucks and vans just passing through or heading to
the ports who they know will probably forget (regular users will simply have an
account). There was no reason not to retain a few pay by cash or contactless
kiosks and its not as it its made a huge difference to the queues anyway
especially on the northbound through the tunnel which is is the real bottleneck.
I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.
Northbound there's enough zig-zagging of traffic trying to get into
the correct lane of a tunnel already, plus the problem of the
junction joining only a few 100 yards before the tunnel
I agree that something along the lines of pay stations at service
areas on the M2/20/25 would be a useful feature.
You can pay by phone so would this be for those who don't have a
mobile phone or those who want to pay in cash?
It'll be for those who don't know the number to phone because they
didn't have time to take it down as they drove past (if it's even there
- I forget)
I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.

And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/sydney-motorways/toll-charges/index.html


https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/sydney-motorways/toll-charges/index.html
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Graeme Wall
2018-12-14 21:58:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin
Post by tim...
Post by Robin
Post by tim...
Post by b***@hnrm7i2rws6kixs.gov.uk
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 13:13:53 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by b***@uhr435v_z.net
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:57:35 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small number of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month), and only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.
The authorities seem wedded to the idea of nickel-and-diming everyone
whenever they can. It'd also be great to get half a dozen free trips at
the Dartford Crossing a year, or maybe half a dozen peak-time rail fares
at the off-peak rate.
The new dart charge was designed to make it a PITA to pay in
order to
extract
fines from those who don't.
ITYF that's Cock-up, not Conspiracy
I'm not sure it is in this case. A significant proportion of the traffic
will be ad hoc trips of cars trucks and vans just passing through or heading to
the ports who they know will probably forget (regular users will simply have an
account). There was no reason not to retain a few pay by cash or contactless
kiosks and its not as it its made a huge difference to the queues anyway
especially on the northbound through the tunnel which is is the real bottleneck.
I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.
Northbound there's enough zig-zagging of traffic trying to get into
the correct lane of a tunnel already, plus the problem of the
junction joining only a few 100 yards before the tunnel
I agree that something along the lines of pay stations at service
areas on the M2/20/25 would be a useful feature.
You can pay by phone so would this be for those who don't have a
mobile phone or those who want to pay in cash?
It'll be for those who don't know the number to phone because they
didn't have time to take it down as they drove past (if it's even
there - I forget)
I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.
And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/sydney-motorways/toll-charges/index.html
https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/sydney-motorways/toll-charges/index.html
Denver has something similar IIRC.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
John Levine
2018-12-15 02:01:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin
And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars. ...
Cashless tolling is increasingly popular. The 407 motorway near
Toronto has always been cashless. If you travel frequently you can
rent a transponder, otherwise they photograph your license tag and
send you a bill. If you travel semi-frequently as I do, you can
register on their web site and they'll e-mail you the bill, slightly
cheaper than a paper bill. If you're in an HGV you must have a
transponder, presumably with a large fine issued otherwise.

Some of the toll barriers on the New York Thruway, some bridges in New
York City, and the Pennsylvania Turnpike have been turned into
gantries, more or less the same deal, and the Thruway is planning to
go totally cashless in a year or so, saying that the vast majority of
users already use transponders. The roads are all well signed with
LAST EXIT BEFORE TOLL and the like so you have little excuse to be
surprised.

It does help that most of the toll agencies in the northeastern US
belong to the E-ZPass consortium so if you have a transponder from any
of them, it works on all of them. The 407's transponders are
technically compatible but for some reason they don't belong. (It's
not because they're in Canada, since the Niagara River bridges are
all E-ZPass.)
--
Regards,
John Levine, ***@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
tim...
2018-12-15 10:48:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Levine
Post by Robin
And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars. ...
Cashless tolling is increasingly popular. The 407 motorway near
Toronto has always been cashless. If you travel frequently you can
rent a transponder, otherwise they photograph your license tag and
send you a bill. If you travel semi-frequently as I do, you can
register on their web site and they'll e-mail you the bill, slightly
cheaper than a paper bill. If you're in an HGV you must have a
transponder, presumably with a large fine issued otherwise.
Some of the toll barriers on the New York Thruway, some bridges in New
York City, and the Pennsylvania Turnpike have been turned into
gantries, more or less the same deal, and the Thruway is planning to
go totally cashless in a year or so, saying that the vast majority of
users already use transponders. The roads are all well signed with
LAST EXIT BEFORE TOLL and the like so you have little excuse to be
surprised.
It does help that most of the toll agencies in the northeastern US
belong to the E-ZPass consortium so if you have a transponder from any
of them, it works on all of them. The 407's transponders are
technically compatible but for some reason they don't belong. (It's
not because they're in Canada, since the Niagara River bridges are
all E-ZPass.)
and how do users of rental cars pay these tolls?

tim
Robin
2018-12-15 11:53:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Robin
And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars. ...
Cashless tolling is increasingly popular.  The 407 motorway near
Toronto has always been cashless.  If you travel frequently you can
rent a transponder, otherwise they photograph your license tag and
send you a bill.  If you travel semi-frequently as I do, you can
register on their web site and they'll e-mail you the bill, slightly
cheaper than a paper bill.  If you're in an HGV you must have a
transponder, presumably with a large fine issued otherwise.
Some of the toll barriers on the New York Thruway, some bridges in New
York City, and the Pennsylvania Turnpike have been turned into
gantries, more or less the same deal, and the Thruway is planning to
go totally cashless in a year or so, saying that the vast majority of
users already use transponders.  The roads are all well signed with
LAST EXIT BEFORE TOLL and the like so you have little excuse to be
surprised.
It does help that most of the toll agencies in the northeastern US
belong to the E-ZPass consortium so if you have a transponder from any
of them, it works on all of them.  The 407's transponders are
technically compatible but for some reason they don't belong.  (It's
not because they're in Canada, since the Niagara River bridges are
all E-ZPass.)
and how do users of rental cars pay these tolls?
IMLE in Sydney a few years ago very easily, by following the very clear
instructions on the website. And car hire companies warn customers
about the tolls.

PS

I forgot to mention that the Dart Charge can also be paid in any of the
many shops which are part of the Payzone network. So those not able or
willing to pay online, by phone or by post in advance can make a small
detour to one of the many either side of the crossing, or near the
Dover ferry terminal, or...

And if they don't know that then can ask for help.

And if they can't do that then I begin to doubt if they are safe to drive.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Arthur Conan Doyle
2018-12-15 13:56:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
and how do users of rental cars pay these tolls?
Toll company bills rental car company, rental car company charges card used for
rental. At least in my experience. The layers of administrative surcharges make
that an expensive option. Unfortunately, I think the transponder rules prohibit
moving from car to car.
tim...
2018-12-15 14:46:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by tim...
and how do users of rental cars pay these tolls?
Toll company bills rental car company, rental car company charges card used for
rental. At least in my experience. The layers of administrative surcharges make
that an expensive option.
precisely!

the rental company charge you 30 dollars for a 3 dollar toll, that you would
have happily paid some other way if you could.

it really shouldn't be like that (As in, the problems likely to be
encountered by the uses of rental cars should have a solution engineered in
to the system)

tim
Graeme Wall
2018-12-15 15:37:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by tim...
and how do users of rental cars pay these tolls?
Toll company bills rental car company, rental car company charges card used for
rental. At least in my experience. The layers of administrative surcharges make
that an expensive option.
precisely!
the rental company charge you 30 dollars for a 3 dollar toll, that you
would have happily paid some other way if you could.
it really shouldn't be like that (As in, the problems likely to be
encountered by the uses of rental cars should have a solution engineered
in to the system)
Just another form of tourist tax.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Robin
2018-12-15 16:25:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by tim...
and how do users of rental cars pay these tolls?
Toll company bills rental car company, rental car company charges card used for
rental. At least in my experience. The layers of administrative surcharges make
that an expensive option.
precisely!
precisely wrong: if you heed the warnings and register in advance or
within 3 days and pay the tolls there's no surcharge etc whatsoever.
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
the rental company charge you 30 dollars for a 3 dollar toll, that you
would have happily paid some other way if you could.
it really shouldn't be like that (As in, the problems likely to be
encountered by the uses of rental cars should have a solution
engineered in to the system)
Just another form of tourist tax.
no - though it might be said to be a tax on the stupid
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Arthur Conan Doyle
2018-12-15 16:46:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin
precisely wrong: if you heed the warnings and register in advance or
within 3 days and pay the tolls there's no surcharge etc whatsoever.
Well, sort of. I realize all systems aren't the same. Here's the web page for
Colorado E470, the most recent system I've used.

https://www.e-470.com/Pages/HowE470Works/Rental-Cars.aspx

Setting up an Express Toll account does requires the payment of a $35 deposit in
advance and you have to add the rental car plate number to the account before
driving on the toll road. A bit cumbersome and expensive for one off trips.
Arthur Conan Doyle
2018-12-15 16:48:03 UTC
Permalink
Sigh. And of course after I posted I realized this was a UK group. Never mind.
:(
Robin
2018-12-15 16:52:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Sigh. And of course after I posted I realized this was a UK group. Never mind.
:(
But one currently discussing the Sydney[1] toll roads ;)


[1] FTAOD Sydney, Australia - not Nova Scotia
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
tim...
2018-12-16 14:35:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Sigh. And of course after I posted I realized this was a UK group. Never mind.
:(
But one currently discussing the Sydney[1] toll roads ;)
[1] FTAOD Sydney, Australia - not Nova Scotia
we're just using examples around the world in order to establish a best
practice solution to this problem

So far. I've yet to see one

All of them seem to think that foreigners (whether driving their own car or
a rental) are ripe to be ripped off and require no consideration.

tim
tim...
2018-12-16 14:31:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin
Post by tim...
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by tim...
and how do users of rental cars pay these tolls?
Toll company bills rental car company, rental car company charges card used for
rental. At least in my experience. The layers of administrative surcharges make
that an expensive option.
precisely!
precisely wrong: if you heed the warnings and register in advance or
within 3 days and pay the tolls there's no surcharge etc whatsoever.
ITYF we have moved on here to some US Toll road.

tim
John Levine
2018-12-15 19:20:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by tim...
and how do users of rental cars pay these tolls?
Toll company bills rental car company, rental car company charges card used for
rental. At least in my experience. The layers of administrative surcharges make
that an expensive option.
That's fairly typical.
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Unfortunately, I think the transponder rules prohibit moving from car to car.
Not in the US. Most US toll transponders can be used in any car, so I
have a spare e-zpass that I use in the northeast and a Sunpass I use
in Florida.

I must not be the only one, since I bought a gizmo on Amazon that clips onto
the e-zpass and has a suction cup to stick to the windshield. (The regular
attachment is adhesive velcro strips.)

Failing that, many cashless tolls have a web site where you can pay by
license tag number within a few days.

For the toll roads, even if some of the tolls go unpaid, the vast
savings in not having staff at the tolls and not having to handle cash
more than covers it.
--
Regards,
John Levine, ***@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
tim...
2018-12-16 14:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Levine
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by tim...
and how do users of rental cars pay these tolls?
Toll company bills rental car company, rental car company charges card used for
rental. At least in my experience. The layers of administrative surcharges make
that an expensive option.
That's fairly typical.
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Unfortunately, I think the transponder rules prohibit moving from car to car.
Not in the US. Most US toll transponders can be used in any car, so I
have a spare e-zpass that I use in the northeast and a Sunpass I use
in Florida.
I must not be the only one, since I bought a gizmo on Amazon that clips onto
the e-zpass and has a suction cup to stick to the windshield. (The regular
attachment is adhesive velcro strips.)
Failing that, many cashless tolls have a web site where you can pay by
license tag number within a few days.
For the toll roads, even if some of the tolls go unpaid, the vast
savings in not having staff at the tolls and not having to handle cash
more than covers it.
though the important point about rental cars (rather than out of Staters who
just go home and ignore postal demands to pay) is that the tolls don't go
unpaid

But the renter risks gets ripped off as the toll is paid

tim
Roland Perry
2018-12-15 08:10:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin
the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice. I'd
characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post (even if
it's only a one-trip season being paid for).

I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where arrangements
for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are either non-existent
or very clumsy, and they don't want to have a system for drivers to
report each trip as it happens, and the finance department pay the
charge from central funds rapidly enough.
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2018-12-15 10:50:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Robin
the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's electronic
or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice. I'd
characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post (even if it's
only a one-trip season being paid for).
I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where arrangements for
reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are either non-existent or very
clumsy, and they don't want to have a system for drivers to report each
trip as it happens, and the finance department pay the charge from central
funds rapidly enough.
surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution, they can set
up an online account that does all this

tim
Roland Perry
2018-12-15 11:08:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Robin
the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice. I'd
characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post (even if
it's only a one-trip season being paid for).
I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where
arrangements for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are
either non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have a
system for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the finance
department pay the charge from central funds rapidly enough.
surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution, they
can set up an online account that does all this
Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which appear to
them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a school (even one
in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online account for even the
Head's car, should he have some official business the other side of the
river. How would that account not end up also paying for his leisure
trips, for example? The postal payment, however, could be ringfenced for
just one trip.
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2018-12-15 14:55:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Robin
the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice. I'd
characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post (even if
it's only a one-trip season being paid for).
I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where arrangements
for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are either non-existent
or very clumsy, and they don't want to have a system for drivers to
report each trip as it happens, and the finance department pay the
charge from central funds rapidly enough.
surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution, they can
set up an online account that does all this
Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which appear to
them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a school (even one
in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online account for even the
Head's car, should he have some official business the other side of the
river. How would that account not end up also paying for his leisure
trips, for example? The postal payment, however, could be ringfenced for
just one trip.
you haven't thought that through, have you

If the head is already making significant leisure journeys through the
tunnel, he is going to want to set up his own account for these journey

so the journey that he does make for the institution is going to go through
that account anyway

telling the head that he may not set up an automated account to pay his
weekly tunnel toll, because once a year he makes a journey for institutional
purposes isn't going go down too well

BTW the automatic online accounts are pre-pay. There is no connection to
the post pay option

(and FWIW you can have an account containing more than one reg)

tim
Roland Perry
2018-12-15 19:58:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Robin
the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice.
I'd characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post
(even if it's only a one-trip season being paid for).
I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where
arrangements for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are
either non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have a
system for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the
finance department pay the charge from central funds rapidly enough.
surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution, they
can set up an online account that does all this
Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which appear
to them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a school
(even one in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online account for
even the Head's car, should he have some official business the other
side of the river. How would that account not end up also paying for
his leisure trips, for example? The postal payment, however, could be
ringfenced for just one trip.
you haven't thought that through, have you
If the head is already making significant leisure journeys through the
tunnel, he is going to want to set up his own account for these journey
Can you set up two accounts for the same car? Which does the charge get
levied against when the car passes through.
Post by tim...
so the journey that he does make for the institution is going to go
through that account anyway
telling the head that he may not set up an automated account to pay his
weekly tunnel toll, because once a year he makes a journey for
institutional purposes isn't going go down too well
What also doesn't go down well is the head (or especially more junior
members of staff) being told that they'll have to pay the toll
personally because there's no such thing as a petty cash account.
Post by tim...
BTW the automatic online accounts are pre-pay. There is no connection
to the post pay option
The postal option is pre-pay too.
Post by tim...
(and FWIW you can have an account containing more than one reg)
The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector
organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures'; and
it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders.

This sometimes requires imaginative solutions :) and one might be to get
two signatures on a cheque and send that the Dart postal service.
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2018-12-16 14:29:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Robin
the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice. I'd
characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post (even if
it's only a one-trip season being paid for).
I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where arrangements
for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are either
non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have a system
for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the finance
department pay the charge from central funds rapidly enough.
surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution, they can
set up an online account that does all this
Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which appear to
them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a school (even one
in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online account for even the
Head's car, should he have some official business the other side of the
river. How would that account not end up also paying for his leisure
trips, for example? The postal payment, however, could be ringfenced for
just one trip.
you haven't thought that through, have you
If the head is already making significant leisure journeys through the
tunnel, he is going to want to set up his own account for these journey
Can you set up two accounts for the same car? Which does the charge get
levied against when the car passes through.
I have no idea what happens if you try this

And I have no intention of finding out.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
so the journey that he does make for the institution is going to go
through that account anyway
telling the head that he may not set up an automated account to pay his
weekly tunnel toll, because once a year he makes a journey for
institutional purposes isn't going go down too well
What also doesn't go down well is the head (or especially more junior
members of staff) being told that they'll have to pay the toll personally
because there's no such thing as a petty cash account.
so how are they going to get back the 25 miles at 40ppm then?

surely whatever solution is used for that can be used for the toll.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
BTW the automatic online accounts are pre-pay. There is no connection to
the post pay option
The postal option is pre-pay too.
but as I understand you, only for a specific journey.

the pre pay account is just a store of money for any future journey
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
(and FWIW you can have an account containing more than one reg)
The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector
organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures'; and
it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders.
so you get two people to sign up for the 10 pound transfer to the online
account

tim
Roland Perry
2018-12-17 09:11:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Robin
the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice.
I'd characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post
(even if it's only a one-trip season being paid for).
I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where
arrangements for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are
either non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have
a system for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the
finance department pay the charge from central funds rapidly enough.
surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution,
they can set up an online account that does all this
Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which
appear to them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a
school (even one in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online
account for even the Head's car, should he have some official
business the other side of the river. How would that account not
end up also paying for his leisure trips, for example? The postal
payment, however, could be ringfenced for just one trip.
you haven't thought that through, have you
If the head is already making significant leisure journeys through
the tunnel, he is going to want to set up his own account for these
journey
Can you set up two accounts for the same car? Which does the charge
get levied against when the car passes through.
I have no idea what happens if you try this
And I have no intention of finding out.
I'm getting bored trying to do "what if" on the Dart website too.
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
so the journey that he does make for the institution is going to go
through that account anyway
telling the head that he may not set up an automated account to pay
his weekly tunnel toll, because once a year he makes a journey for
institutional purposes isn't going go down too well
What also doesn't go down well is the head (or especially more junior
members of staff) being told that they'll have to pay the toll
personally because there's no such thing as a petty cash account.
so how are they going to get back the 25 miles at 40ppm then?
surely whatever solution is used for that can be used for the toll.
Mileage can be a problem too, because it requires checking the person
took the 'best' route and so on. Some organisations only pay the
crow-flies mileage as a result. But the bigger issue is that other than
pure mileage, we are into 'disbursements' territory. They require
receipts, and for the employee to advance the employer actual monetary
credit. Both of which can be an issue.

Meanwhile, it's unusual for people to demand to be paid their mileage by
midnight the following day. I also doubt if the online payment scheme
has any ability to arbitrate dual-signatures.
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
BTW the automatic online accounts are pre-pay. There is no
connection to the post pay option
The postal option is pre-pay too.
but as I understand you, only for a specific journey.
The form doesn't have somewhere to nominate a travel day.
Post by tim...
the pre pay account is just a store of money for any future journey
The postal option is a way to 'top up' a type of pre-pay account.
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
(and FWIW you can have an account containing more than one reg)
The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector
organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures';
and it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders.
so you get two people to sign up for the 10 pound transfer to the
online account
On a cheque. While it's possible to set up dual-signature BACS transfers
online, it's a bit of a pain. When I was involved in this I found that
'second signatories' were much more responsive to countersigning a
cheque and dropping it in the prepaid return envelope, than jumping
through all the hoops of a dual-auth online banking account.
--
Roland Perry
Optimist
2018-12-17 11:47:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Robin
the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice.
I'd characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post
(even if it's only a one-trip season being paid for).
I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where
arrangements for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are
either non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have
a system for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the
finance department pay the charge from central funds rapidly enough.
surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution,
they can set up an online account that does all this
Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which
appear to them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a
school (even one in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online
account for even the Head's car, should he have some official
business the other side of the river. How would that account not
end up also paying for his leisure trips, for example? The postal
payment, however, could be ringfenced for just one trip.
you haven't thought that through, have you
If the head is already making significant leisure journeys through
the tunnel, he is going to want to set up his own account for these
journey
Can you set up two accounts for the same car? Which does the charge
get levied against when the car passes through.
I have no idea what happens if you try this
And I have no intention of finding out.
I'm getting bored trying to do "what if" on the Dart website too.
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
so the journey that he does make for the institution is going to go
through that account anyway
telling the head that he may not set up an automated account to pay
his weekly tunnel toll, because once a year he makes a journey for
institutional purposes isn't going go down too well
What also doesn't go down well is the head (or especially more junior
members of staff) being told that they'll have to pay the toll
personally because there's no such thing as a petty cash account.
so how are they going to get back the 25 miles at 40ppm then?
surely whatever solution is used for that can be used for the toll.
Mileage can be a problem too, because it requires checking the person
took the 'best' route and so on. Some organisations only pay the
crow-flies mileage as a result. But the bigger issue is that other than
pure mileage, we are into 'disbursements' territory. They require
receipts, and for the employee to advance the employer actual monetary
credit. Both of which can be an issue.
Meanwhile, it's unusual for people to demand to be paid their mileage by
midnight the following day. I also doubt if the online payment scheme
has any ability to arbitrate dual-signatures.
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
BTW the automatic online accounts are pre-pay. There is no
connection to the post pay option
The postal option is pre-pay too.
but as I understand you, only for a specific journey.
The form doesn't have somewhere to nominate a travel day.
Post by tim...
the pre pay account is just a store of money for any future journey
The postal option is a way to 'top up' a type of pre-pay account.
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
(and FWIW you can have an account containing more than one reg)
The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector
organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures';
and it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders.
so you get two people to sign up for the 10 pound transfer to the
online account
On a cheque. While it's possible to set up dual-signature BACS transfers
online, it's a bit of a pain. When I was involved in this I found that
'second signatories' were much more responsive to countersigning a
cheque and dropping it in the prepaid return envelope, than jumping
through all the hoops of a dual-auth online banking account.
Banks don't check signatures anyway.
Roland Perry
2018-12-17 11:56:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Optimist
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector
organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures';
and it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders.
so you get two people to sign up for the 10 pound transfer to the
online account
On a cheque. While it's possible to set up dual-signature BACS transfers
online, it's a bit of a pain. When I was involved in this I found that
'second signatories' were much more responsive to countersigning a
cheque and dropping it in the prepaid return envelope, than jumping
through all the hoops of a dual-auth online banking account.
Banks don't check signatures anyway.
It's more for auditing purposes, to make sure no-one is siphoning off
funds. For example it's usually prohibited for the two signatures to be
related one another (even if both of them are officers of the
organisation).
--
Roland Perry
Robin
2018-12-17 15:37:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Optimist
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Robin
the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice.
I'd characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post
(even if it's only a one-trip season being paid for).
I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where
arrangements for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are
either non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have
a system for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the
finance department pay the charge from central funds rapidly enough.
surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution,
they can set up an online account that does all this
Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which
appear to them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a
school (even one in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online
account for even the Head's car, should he have some official
business the other side of the river. How would that account not
end up also paying for his leisure trips, for example? The postal
payment, however, could be ringfenced for just one trip.
you haven't thought that through, have you
If the head is already making significant leisure journeys through
the tunnel, he is going to want to set up his own account for these
journey
Can you set up two accounts for the same car? Which does the charge
get levied against when the car passes through.
I have no idea what happens if you try this
And I have no intention of finding out.
I'm getting bored trying to do "what if" on the Dart website too.
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
so the journey that he does make for the institution is going to go
through that account anyway
telling the head that he may not set up an automated account to pay
his weekly tunnel toll, because once a year he makes a journey for
institutional purposes isn't going go down too well
What also doesn't go down well is the head (or especially more junior
members of staff) being told that they'll have to pay the toll
personally because there's no such thing as a petty cash account.
so how are they going to get back the 25 miles at 40ppm then?
surely whatever solution is used for that can be used for the toll.
Mileage can be a problem too, because it requires checking the person
took the 'best' route and so on. Some organisations only pay the
crow-flies mileage as a result. But the bigger issue is that other than
pure mileage, we are into 'disbursements' territory. They require
receipts, and for the employee to advance the employer actual monetary
credit. Both of which can be an issue.
Meanwhile, it's unusual for people to demand to be paid their mileage by
midnight the following day. I also doubt if the online payment scheme
has any ability to arbitrate dual-signatures.
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
BTW the automatic online accounts are pre-pay. There is no
connection to the post pay option
The postal option is pre-pay too.
but as I understand you, only for a specific journey.
The form doesn't have somewhere to nominate a travel day.
Post by tim...
the pre pay account is just a store of money for any future journey
The postal option is a way to 'top up' a type of pre-pay account.
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
(and FWIW you can have an account containing more than one reg)
The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector
organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures';
and it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders.
so you get two people to sign up for the 10 pound transfer to the
online account
On a cheque. While it's possible to set up dual-signature BACS transfers
online, it's a bit of a pain. When I was involved in this I found that
'second signatories' were much more responsive to countersigning a
cheque and dropping it in the prepaid return envelope, than jumping
through all the hoops of a dual-auth online banking account.
Banks don't check signatures anyway.
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on
a single order and in total during (usually) a month. And employee A's
purchases were in an account sent to a second employee B. B was
responsible for checking that the items looked reasonable - and
sometimes for spot checks to verify with the end user - before
authorising payment. Plus of course all the usual managerial oversight,
budget controls, internal audit, etc. Similarly purchasing cycle
systems have worked with 2 electronic "signatures" and without cheques
since the last century.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
b***@1oc7njv0c2xrij.gov.uk
2018-12-17 16:19:44 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:37:46 +0000
Post by Robin
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on
A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card
machine around when they go to jobs.
Graeme Wall
2018-12-17 16:31:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@1oc7njv0c2xrij.gov.uk
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:37:46 +0000
Post by Robin
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on
A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card
machine around when they go to jobs.
Don't need a separate machine, there are smart phone apps that will do
the job now.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
b***@w_nk4it.ac.uk
2018-12-18 09:42:09 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:31:59 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@1oc7njv0c2xrij.gov.uk
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:37:46 +0000
Post by Robin
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on
A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card
machine around when they go to jobs.
Don't need a separate machine, there are smart phone apps that will do
the job now.
How does a smartphone app read chip and pin then? Not all cards are
contactless and not all phones have NFC.
Graeme Wall
2018-12-18 11:13:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@w_nk4it.ac.uk
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:31:59 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@1oc7njv0c2xrij.gov.uk
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:37:46 +0000
Post by Robin
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on
A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card
machine around when they go to jobs.
Don't need a separate machine, there are smart phone apps that will do
the job now.
How does a smartphone app read chip and pin then? Not all cards are
contactless and not all phones have NFC.
Few smart phones don't have it now and the number of non-contactless
cards is diminishing rapidly.

Having said that I've just wandered round the Christmas craft market and
all the small traders have card machines tethered to their mobiles.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
b***@qlcwzfned7uemy0rtu.org
2018-12-18 11:37:25 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 11:13:46 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@w_nk4it.ac.uk
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:31:59 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@1oc7njv0c2xrij.gov.uk
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:37:46 +0000
Post by Robin
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on
A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card
machine around when they go to jobs.
Don't need a separate machine, there are smart phone apps that will do
the job now.
How does a smartphone app read chip and pin then? Not all cards are
contactless and not all phones have NFC.
Few smart phones don't have it now and the number of non-contactless
Really? ITYF most don't.
Post by Graeme Wall
cards is diminishing rapidly.
Still a 30 quid limit. Useless for almost all tradesmens jobs anyway.
Roland Perry
2018-12-18 12:13:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@qlcwzfned7uemy0rtu.org
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@w_nk4it.ac.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@1oc7njv0c2xrij.gov.uk
Post by Robin
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on
A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card
machine around when they go to jobs.
Don't need a separate machine, there are smart phone apps that will do
the job now.
How does a smartphone app read chip and pin then? Not all cards are
contactless and not all phones have NFC.
Few smart phones don't have it now and the number of non-contactless
Really? ITYF most don't.
Post by Graeme Wall
cards is diminishing rapidly.
Still a 30 quid limit. Useless for almost all tradesmens jobs anyway.
This whole thread is going off at cross purposes. When the adverts say
you can take smartphone payments without a machine, they mean one of
those DECT-phone sized dedicated machines with a thermal printer (hold
that thought).

The offering is a cardreader that plugs into a smartphone.

But how does one print a receipt??
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2018-12-18 12:28:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@qlcwzfned7uemy0rtu.org
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@w_nk4it.ac.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@1oc7njv0c2xrij.gov.uk
Post by Robin
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online.  Eg use of payment cards was common when I
retired 13
years ago.  There were naturally limits on how much could be
charged on
A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card
machine around when they go to jobs.
Don't need a separate machine, there are smart phone apps that will do
the job now.
How does a smartphone app read chip and pin then? Not all cards are
contactless and not all phones have NFC.
Few smart phones don't have it now and the number of non-contactless
Really? ITYF most don't.
Post by Graeme Wall
cards is diminishing rapidly.
Still a 30 quid limit. Useless for almost all tradesmens jobs anyway.
This whole thread is going off at cross purposes. When the adverts say
you can take smartphone payments without a machine, they mean one of
those DECT-phone sized dedicated machines with a thermal printer (hold
that thought).
The offering is a cardreader that plugs into a smartphone.
But how does one print a receipt??
email.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2018-12-18 13:16:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
This whole thread is going off at cross purposes. When the adverts
say you can take smartphone payments without a machine, they mean one
of those DECT-phone sized dedicated machines with a thermal printer
(hold that thought).
The offering is a cardreader that plugs into a smartphone.
But how does one print a receipt??
email.
Yet another example of externalising costs to the consumer, and
gathering data (email address) for someone the hack into.
--
Roland Perry
b***@apxn1t0s2sxfqo4mj_lvantuc.com
2018-12-18 13:37:32 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 12:28:45 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@qlcwzfned7uemy0rtu.org
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@w_nk4it.ac.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@1oc7njv0c2xrij.gov.uk
Post by Robin
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online.  Eg use of payment cards was common when I
retired 13
years ago.  There were naturally limits on how much could be
charged on
A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card
machine around when they go to jobs.
Don't need a separate machine, there are smart phone apps that will do
the job now.
How does a smartphone app read chip and pin then? Not all cards are
contactless and not all phones have NFC.
Few smart phones don't have it now and the number of non-contactless
Really? ITYF most don't.
Post by Graeme Wall
cards is diminishing rapidly.
Still a 30 quid limit. Useless for almost all tradesmens jobs anyway.
This whole thread is going off at cross purposes. When the adverts say
you can take smartphone payments without a machine, they mean one of
those DECT-phone sized dedicated machines with a thermal printer (hold
that thought).
The offering is a cardreader that plugs into a smartphone.
But how does one print a receipt??
email.
Sure, just hand over your email address to Mr Random Tradesman. Brilliant idea.
Someone Somewhere
2018-12-18 14:43:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
But how does one print a receipt??
email.
Bluetooth printers are relatively easily available - you can even get
battery powered ones.

A quick look on a well known internet shop shows availability from £35
or so.
tim...
2018-12-20 17:48:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@qlcwzfned7uemy0rtu.org
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@w_nk4it.ac.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@1oc7njv0c2xrij.gov.uk
Post by Robin
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on
A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card
machine around when they go to jobs.
Don't need a separate machine, there are smart phone apps that will do
the job now.
How does a smartphone app read chip and pin then? Not all cards are
contactless and not all phones have NFC.
Few smart phones don't have it now and the number of non-contactless
Really? ITYF most don't.
Post by Graeme Wall
cards is diminishing rapidly.
Still a 30 quid limit. Useless for almost all tradesmens jobs anyway.
This whole thread is going off at cross purposes. When the adverts say you
can take smartphone payments without a machine, they mean one of those
DECT-phone sized dedicated machines with a thermal printer (hold that
thought).
The offering is a cardreader that plugs into a smartphone.
But how does one print a receipt??
when my kitchen units were delivered - 81 items [1], I was asked to check
off everything was there

so I asked for the picking list to compare with and he said "I can't print
that off until you have signed that the deliver is correct"

tim

[1] each door knob and hinge pack was a separate item
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2018-12-18 12:26:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@qlcwzfned7uemy0rtu.org
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 11:13:46 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@w_nk4it.ac.uk
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:31:59 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@1oc7njv0c2xrij.gov.uk
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:37:46 +0000
Post by Robin
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on
A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card
machine around when they go to jobs.
Don't need a separate machine, there are smart phone apps that will do
the job now.
How does a smartphone app read chip and pin then? Not all cards are
contactless and not all phones have NFC.
Few smart phones don't have it now and the number of non-contactless
Really? ITYF most don't.
What smart phones currently on the market don't have it?
Post by b***@qlcwzfned7uemy0rtu.org
Post by Graeme Wall
cards is diminishing rapidly.
Still a 30 quid limit. Useless for almost all tradesmens jobs anyway.
Apple/Android Pay don't have that limit.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
b***@xc45qpaskd8myaex9yfi.com
2018-12-18 13:36:06 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 12:26:08 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@qlcwzfned7uemy0rtu.org
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 11:13:46 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@w_nk4it.ac.uk
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:31:59 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@1oc7njv0c2xrij.gov.uk
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:37:46 +0000
Post by Robin
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on
A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a
card
Post by b***@qlcwzfned7uemy0rtu.org
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@w_nk4it.ac.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@1oc7njv0c2xrij.gov.uk
machine around when they go to jobs.
Don't need a separate machine, there are smart phone apps that will do
the job now.
How does a smartphone app read chip and pin then? Not all cards are
contactless and not all phones have NFC.
Few smart phones don't have it now and the number of non-contactless
Really? ITYF most don't.
What smart phones currently on the market don't have it?
Pretty much all PAYG phones and anything a hundred quid or less which is a
large part of the market. Just because you might pay the Cupertino idiot tax
either directly or getting stiffed for 150% of it via a contract, don't assume
everyone else is the same.
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@qlcwzfned7uemy0rtu.org
Still a 30 quid limit. Useless for almost all tradesmens jobs anyway.
Apple/Android Pay don't have that limit.
Big deal. How many people use those? Or would even want to frankly.
Roland Perry
2018-12-18 13:46:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@xc45qpaskd8myaex9yfi.com
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@qlcwzfned7uemy0rtu.org
Still a 30 quid limit. Useless for almost all tradesmens jobs anyway.
Apple/Android Pay don't have that limit.
Big deal. How many people use those? Or would even want to frankly.
Getting back to transport (sorry about that) I was intending to try
out Android Pay on TfL, but neither of the cards I was proposing to
associate with the App were acceptable.

In a sense odd, because using the cards natively contactless is fine.
Must be that lack-of-30quid limit when laundered through Android Pay
that's making the bank nervous. And frankly, me too.
--
Roland Perry
b***@c8lnbtry6s0.gov.uk
2018-12-18 14:38:11 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 13:46:15 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@xc45qpaskd8myaex9yfi.com
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@qlcwzfned7uemy0rtu.org
Still a 30 quid limit. Useless for almost all tradesmens jobs anyway.
Apple/Android Pay don't have that limit.
Big deal. How many people use those? Or would even want to frankly.
Getting back to transport (sorry about that) I was intending to try
out Android Pay on TfL, but neither of the cards I was proposing to
associate with the App were acceptable.
In a sense odd, because using the cards natively contactless is fine.
Must be that lack-of-30quid limit when laundered through Android Pay
that's making the bank nervous. And frankly, me too.
Handing over random access to my bank account to Apple or Google makes me
very nervous which is why I'd never do it. Its bad enough when a direct debit
goes wrong but at least they're usually only once a month.
tim...
2018-12-20 17:51:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@c8lnbtry6s0.gov.uk
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 13:46:15 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@xc45qpaskd8myaex9yfi.com
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@qlcwzfned7uemy0rtu.org
Still a 30 quid limit. Useless for almost all tradesmens jobs anyway.
Apple/Android Pay don't have that limit.
Big deal. How many people use those? Or would even want to frankly.
Getting back to transport (sorry about that) I was intending to try
out Android Pay on TfL, but neither of the cards I was proposing to
associate with the App were acceptable.
In a sense odd, because using the cards natively contactless is fine.
Must be that lack-of-30quid limit when laundered through Android Pay
that's making the bank nervous. And frankly, me too.
Handing over random access to my bank account to Apple or Google makes me
very nervous which is why I'd never do it. Its bad enough when a direct debit
goes wrong but at least they're usually only once a month.
your direct debits go wrong once a month

that's unlucky

tim
Graeme Wall
2018-12-18 15:34:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@xc45qpaskd8myaex9yfi.com
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 12:26:08 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@qlcwzfned7uemy0rtu.org
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 11:13:46 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@w_nk4it.ac.uk
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:31:59 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@1oc7njv0c2xrij.gov.uk
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:37:46 +0000
Post by Robin
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on
A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a
card
Post by b***@qlcwzfned7uemy0rtu.org
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@w_nk4it.ac.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@1oc7njv0c2xrij.gov.uk
machine around when they go to jobs.
Don't need a separate machine, there are smart phone apps that will do
the job now.
How does a smartphone app read chip and pin then? Not all cards are
contactless and not all phones have NFC.
Few smart phones don't have it now and the number of non-contactless
Really? ITYF most don't.
What smart phones currently on the market don't have it?
Pretty much all PAYG phones and anything a hundred quid or less which is a
large part of the market. Just because you might pay the Cupertino idiot tax
either directly or getting stiffed for 150% of it via a contract, don't assume
everyone else is the same.
Back to the insults this early, you must be getting desperate.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Arthur Conan Doyle
2018-12-18 14:59:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Apple/Android Pay don't have that limit.
I wasn't allowed to use Android (now Google) Pay at Tesco for a transaction over
£30. Terminal declined it.
Graeme Wall
2018-12-18 15:35:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Graeme Wall
Apple/Android Pay don't have that limit.
I wasn't allowed to use Android (now Google) Pay at Tesco for a transaction over
£30. Terminal declined it.
That's Tesco's choice.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2018-12-18 12:09:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@w_nk4it.ac.uk
How does a smartphone app read chip and pin then? Not all cards are
contactless and not all phones have NFC.
Few smart phones don't have it now and the number of non-contactless
cards is diminishing rapidly.
The Moto G6, by no means an entry level phone, and the latest
acquisition here, doesn't. On the other hand it does have a big battery
*and* a [corded] fast-charge mode.

Which I mention because my LG smartphone has NFC and cordless charging,
but not at the same time. You have to swap phone backs.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2018-12-17 16:48:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@1oc7njv0c2xrij.gov.uk
Post by Robin
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on
A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card
machine around when they go to jobs.
Not just that, but huge numbers of traders simply don't take cards.

ObTransport (just): there was an item on the TV news last week about
Holyhead as a ferry port, where they did a vox-pop about the potential
impact to local business should the port become a casualty of a hard
Brexit. One was in a shop selling I think general gifts, and there was a
sign on the door as they went in saying "cash only".

My wife's hairdresser on the High Street only takes cash.
--
Roland Perry
b***@5nf7mg0vpibv7o2hryh.net
2018-12-18 09:43:29 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:48:07 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@1oc7njv0c2xrij.gov.uk
Post by Robin
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on
A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card
machine around when they go to jobs.
Not just that, but huge numbers of traders simply don't take cards.
Yup, cheques or cash. Often a discount for the latter, best not to ask why.
Post by Roland Perry
My wife's hairdresser on the High Street only takes cash.
My barbers only takes cash too.
tim...
2018-12-20 17:45:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@1oc7njv0c2xrij.gov.uk
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:37:46 +0000
Post by Robin
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on
A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card
machine around when they go to jobs.
most of these people give me an invoice and expect me to pay by internet
banking

even my sister's window cleaner worked this way

tim
b***@29_msmc_ejfds.edu
2018-12-21 12:02:04 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:45:02 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by b***@1oc7njv0c2xrij.gov.uk
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:37:46 +0000
Post by Robin
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on
A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card
machine around when they go to jobs.
most of these people give me an invoice and expect me to pay by internet
banking
Some trademens do , some don't. Plus there's often a discount for paying in
cash but you probably wouldn't know about that.
Post by tim...
even my sister's window cleaner worked this way
An invoicing window cleaner? Where does she live, Islington, or maybe Chipping
Norton?

Roland Perry
2018-12-17 16:43:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin
Post by Optimist
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Robin
the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice.
I'd characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post
(even if it's only a one-trip season being paid for).
I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where
arrangements for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are
either non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have
a system for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the
finance department pay the charge from central funds rapidly enough.
surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution,
they can set up an online account that does all this
Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which
appear to them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a
school (even one in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online
account for even the Head's car, should he have some official
business the other side of the river. How would that account not
end up also paying for his leisure trips, for example? The postal
payment, however, could be ringfenced for just one trip.
you haven't thought that through, have you
If the head is already making significant leisure journeys through
the tunnel, he is going to want to set up his own account for these
journey
Can you set up two accounts for the same car? Which does the charge
get levied against when the car passes through.
I have no idea what happens if you try this
And I have no intention of finding out.
I'm getting bored trying to do "what if" on the Dart website too.
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
so the journey that he does make for the institution is going to go
through that account anyway
telling the head that he may not set up an automated account to pay
his weekly tunnel toll, because once a year he makes a journey for
institutional purposes isn't going go down too well
What also doesn't go down well is the head (or especially more junior
members of staff) being told that they'll have to pay the toll
personally because there's no such thing as a petty cash account.
so how are they going to get back the 25 miles at 40ppm then?
surely whatever solution is used for that can be used for the toll.
Mileage can be a problem too, because it requires checking the person
took the 'best' route and so on. Some organisations only pay the
crow-flies mileage as a result. But the bigger issue is that other than
pure mileage, we are into 'disbursements' territory. They require
receipts, and for the employee to advance the employer actual monetary
credit. Both of which can be an issue.
Meanwhile, it's unusual for people to demand to be paid their mileage by
midnight the following day. I also doubt if the online payment scheme
has any ability to arbitrate dual-signatures.
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
BTW the automatic online accounts are pre-pay. There is no
connection to the post pay option
The postal option is pre-pay too.
but as I understand you, only for a specific journey.
The form doesn't have somewhere to nominate a travel day.
Post by tim...
the pre pay account is just a store of money for any future journey
The postal option is a way to 'top up' a type of pre-pay account.
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
(and FWIW you can have an account containing more than one reg)
The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector
organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures';
and it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders.
so you get two people to sign up for the 10 pound transfer to the
online account
On a cheque. While it's possible to set up dual-signature BACS transfers
online, it's a bit of a pain. When I was involved in this I found that
'second signatories' were much more responsive to countersigning a
cheque and dropping it in the prepaid return envelope, than jumping
through all the hoops of a dual-auth online banking account.
Banks don't check signatures anyway.
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on
a single order and in total during (usually) a month. And employee A's
purchases were in an account sent to a second employee B. B was
responsible for checking that the items looked reasonable - and
sometimes for spot checks to verify with the end user - before
authorising payment.
Who was B authorising to make the payment?

In any event there's a huge difference between raising POs from approved
suppliers, and later doing the paperwork to ensure that Finance can send
payment, and employees turning up saying "look what I just bought on my
personal credit card, can I be reimbursed please".
Post by Robin
Plus of course all the usual managerial oversight, budget controls,
internal audit, etc. Similarly purchasing cycle systems have worked
with 2 electronic "signatures" and without cheques since the last
century.
You make it sound as if your objection is slow adoption of technology,
but in fact it's about rules put in place by funders - should they be
County Councils for schools, or the National Lottery for small
charities.

One of the latter I'm aware of had a NL grant and the T&C were specific
that all purchases funded by the grant MUST be paid for with a
two-signatures method, and just to rub it in MUST NOT ever be paid for
on a debit/credit card[1]. In smaller organisations it's often easier to
manage suchpayments by cheque, rather than pester two people to log on
and double-authorise a BACS transfer (although the technology to do that
certainly exists).

In the case of paying a Dart Toll, doing that by midday of the day after
travel is a huge logistical exercise.

Meanwhile, one of the former was a school, which eventually had to break
down and get a debit card to buy some online resources which simply
weren't available any other way. But a procedure had to be put in place
where the schools bursar had the card locked in a safe, and could only
get it out and use it if supervised by another.

That's not a case of mistrusting the people (although it's far from
unknown for large sums to go missing from schools) but simply to follow
established procedures, and also to make sure the card isn't misplaced
and then used fraudulently.

Private companies are much more gung-ho about such things, and I
remember buying a laptop for five grand in today's money twenty years
ago on my personal credit card, and being confident of reimbursement.

On the other hand I've known big firms who mandated their employees got
personal (not company) Amex cards for travel expenses, and then
reimbursed them after the various hoops had been jmped through. The
incentive there is that classic (and often apocryphal) dodgy 'expenses
account' stuff would probably be caught and never re-imbursed; rather
than if it was a company card having to be recovered from the employee.

[1] I'm not sure I've ever seen a dual-PIN debit or credit card, which
has to be a failing of the technology!
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2018-12-20 17:55:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
One of the latter I'm aware of had a NL grant and the T&C were specific
that all purchases funded by the grant MUST be paid for with a
two-signatures method, and just to rub it in MUST NOT ever be paid for on
a debit/credit card[1]. In smaller organisations it's often easier to
manage suchpayments by cheque, rather than pester two people to log on and
double-authorise a BACS transfer (although the technology to do that
certainly exists).
The sooner these people are shaken into the 21st century by the abolition of
cheques the better IMHO

tim
Roland Perry
2018-12-20 18:42:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
One of the latter I'm aware of had a NL grant and the T&C were
specific that all purchases funded by the grant MUST be paid for with
a two-signatures method, and just to rub it in MUST NOT ever be paid
for on a debit/credit card[1]. In smaller organisations it's often
easier to manage suchpayments by cheque, rather than pester two
people to log on and double-authorise a BACS transfer (although the
technology to do that certainly exists).
The sooner these people are shaken into the 21st century by the
abolition of cheques the better IMHO
It doesn't matter how hard you shake them, two-signature cheques will
remain much easier to do than two-login BACS. You've also got to realise
that the signatories are often in effect volunteers, so you don't want
to "shake" them too much.
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2018-12-15 10:45:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin
Post by tim...
Post by Robin
Post by tim...
Post by b***@hnrm7i2rws6kixs.gov.uk
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 13:13:53 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by b***@uhr435v_z.net
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:57:35 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small number of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month), and only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.
The authorities seem wedded to the idea of nickel-and-diming everyone
whenever they can. It'd also be great to get half a dozen free trips at
the Dartford Crossing a year, or maybe half a dozen peak-time rail fares
at the off-peak rate.
The new dart charge was designed to make it a PITA to pay in order
to
extract
fines from those who don't.
ITYF that's Cock-up, not Conspiracy
I'm not sure it is in this case. A significant proportion of the traffic
will be ad hoc trips of cars trucks and vans just passing through or heading to
the ports who they know will probably forget (regular users will simply have an
account). There was no reason not to retain a few pay by cash or contactless
kiosks and its not as it its made a huge difference to the queues anyway
especially on the northbound through the tunnel which is is the real bottleneck.
I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.
Northbound there's enough zig-zagging of traffic trying to get into the
correct lane of a tunnel already, plus the problem of the junction
joining only a few 100 yards before the tunnel
I agree that something along the lines of pay stations at service areas
on the M2/20/25 would be a useful feature.
You can pay by phone so would this be for those who don't have a mobile
phone or those who want to pay in cash?
It'll be for those who don't know the number to phone because they didn't
have time to take it down as they drove past (if it's even there - I forget)
I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.
And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's electronic
or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
Presumably rental companies have a way to provide this

It's not like I'm going to roll up in my UK registered car, is it?

Unlike in Portugal, where I have a map that shows some motorways as having
traditional "pay at kiosk" tolls and others as toll-free

Unfortunately, the latter have now been changed to e-tolls. And where does
a foreigner get the e-toll card, you might ask? At the border as they enter
the country on one of these roads.

If you enter the country some other way and happen across one of these
e-till roads later, you are ****ed

It's nonsense like this that is just asking for the EU to impose common
standards, but they can't be bothered

tim
Robin
2018-12-15 13:04:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Robin
Post by tim...
Post by Robin
Post by tim...
Post by b***@hnrm7i2rws6kixs.gov.uk
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 13:13:53 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by b***@uhr435v_z.net
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:57:35 +0000
Mon, 10 Dec 2018, Billy No Mates <Billy No
Post by Recliner
Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small number of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month), and only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.
The authorities seem wedded to the idea of nickel-and-diming everyone
whenever they can. It'd also be great to get half a dozen free trips at
the Dartford Crossing a year, or maybe half a dozen peak-time rail fares
at the off-peak rate.
The new dart charge was designed to make it a PITA to pay in
order to
extract
fines from those who don't.
ITYF that's Cock-up, not Conspiracy
I'm not sure it is in this case. A significant proportion of the traffic
will be ad hoc trips of cars trucks and vans just passing through or heading to
the ports who they know will probably forget (regular users will simply have an
account). There was no reason not to retain a few pay by cash or contactless
kiosks and its not as it its made a huge difference to the queues anyway
especially on the northbound through the tunnel which is is the real bottleneck.
I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.
Northbound there's enough zig-zagging of traffic trying to get into
the correct lane of a tunnel already, plus the problem of the
junction joining only a few 100 yards before the tunnel
I agree that something along the lines of pay stations at service
areas on the M2/20/25 would be a useful feature.
You can pay by phone so would this be for those who don't have a
mobile phone or those who want to pay in cash?
It'll be for those who don't know the number to phone because they
didn't have time to take it down as they drove past (if it's even
there - I forget)
I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on
the M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to
get it, if only from a passing member of the public.
And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
Presumably rental companies have a way to provide this
Well I suppose they'll provide the website if you don't know it already.
It's the one I gave you a link for where it states "you can set up an
electronic pass before you leave home or up to three days after you
travel on a toll road".
Post by tim...
It's not like I'm going to roll up in my UK registered car, is it?
How do I know? I've seen UK registered cars in use in Aus.
Post by tim...
Unlike in Portugal, where I have a map that shows some motorways as
having traditional "pay at kiosk" tolls and others as toll-free
Unfortunately, the latter have now been changed to e-tolls.  And where
does a foreigner get the e-toll card, you might ask?  At the border as
they enter the country on one of these roads.
If you enter the country some other way and happen across one of these
e-till roads later, you are ****ed
It's nonsense like this that is just asking for the EU to impose common
standards, but they can't be bothered
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
tim...
2018-12-15 14:58:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin
Post by tim...
Presumably rental companies have a way to provide this
Well I suppose they'll provide the website if you don't know it already.
It's the one I gave you a link for where it states "you can set up an
electronic pass before you leave home or up to three days after you travel
on a toll road".
I assume that rental companies supply cars with the tags in place

surely most users are going to want this?
Post by Robin
Post by tim...
It's not like I'm going to roll up in my UK registered car, is it?
How do I know? I've seen UK registered cars in use in Aus.
but not short term visitors, I bet
Robin
2018-12-15 16:38:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Robin
Post by tim...
Presumably rental companies have a way to provide this
Well I suppose they'll provide the website if you don't know it
already. It's the one I gave you a link for where it states "you can
set up an electronic pass before you leave home or up to three days
after you travel on a toll road".
I assume that rental companies supply cars with the tags in place
surely most users are going to want this?
I assume you either did not read or did not understand my post which
included "you can set up an electronic pass before you leave home or up
to three days after you travel on a toll road". And did not bother to
go to the Sydney site. But I'll try just one last time:

a. the cars don't come with tags: that'd mean the rental companies had
to allocate the tolls to hirers and collect the money, with scope for
arguments about the quantum, and so even more admin costs - costs they'd
pass on just like you don't want

b. it's down to the renter to register and pay

c. only if the renter doesn't pay does the rental company get involved.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
tim...
2018-12-16 14:24:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin
Post by tim...
Post by Robin
Post by tim...
Presumably rental companies have a way to provide this
Well I suppose they'll provide the website if you don't know it already.
It's the one I gave you a link for where it states "you can set up an
electronic pass before you leave home or up to three days after you
travel on a toll road".
I assume that rental companies supply cars with the tags in place
surely most users are going to want this?
I assume you either did not read
I read it
Post by Robin
or did not understand my post which included "you can set up an electronic
pass before you leave home
not much use for someone whose home is a different country
Post by Robin
or up to three days after you travel on a toll road".
How convenient is this going to be when you are on the road staying in a
different Motel each night?
Post by Robin
And did not bother to go to the Sydney site.
and I did this
Post by Robin
a. the cars don't come with tags: that'd mean the rental companies had to
allocate the tolls to hirers and collect the money, with scope for
arguments about the quantum, and so even more admin costs - costs they'd
pass on just like you don't want
yes I know

but my point is that surely they do this, for those people for which getting
a pass is too inconvenient (I.e. almost every foreign visitor, which In a
country like Oz is going to be a large percentage of renters)

That there is an annoying need for the rental companies to administer the
charges incurred during the rental period, is the part of the solution that
should have been engineered out by the implementation.

Foreigners driving rental cars is likely to be a non negligible part of the
usage. A user friendly solution should have been engineered in.
Post by Robin
b. it's down to the renter to register and pay
if "setting up an electronic pass" simply means registering a credit card
against a reg number, then that's a pretty poor choice of language, IMHO.

the term electronic pass implies to me that a piece of hardware is involved.

(and the fact that there is information on the website about having to put
your own pass in a shielded bag if you get a rental car with a pass confirms
that a piece of hardware IS involved)
Post by Robin
c. only if the renter doesn't pay does the rental company get involved.
But how does the casual renter pay?

tim
b***@4wykgdm_2o.edu
2018-12-16 09:22:36 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000
Post by Robin
I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.
Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff around
with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just
handing over 2 quid, done, drive off...
Post by Robin
And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier
automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero
reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here.
Post by Robin
https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/sydney-motorways/toll-charges/index.html
Who cares what the skippys do.
tim...
2018-12-16 14:30:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@4wykgdm_2o.edu
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000
Post by Robin
I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.
Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff around
with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just
handing over 2 quid, done, drive off...
Post by Robin
And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier
automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero
reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here.
the French peage are routinely almost empty. The same cannot be said of the
Dartford Toll
Graeme Wall
2018-12-16 14:33:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by b***@4wykgdm_2o.edu
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000
Post by Robin
I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.
Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff around
with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just
handing over 2 quid, done, drive off...
Post by Robin
And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier
automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero
reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here.
the French peage are routinely almost empty.
You've not tried driving down one while the Tour de France was in the area!
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
tim...
2018-12-16 16:48:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by b***@4wykgdm_2o.edu
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000
Post by Robin
I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.
Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff around
with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just
handing over 2 quid, done, drive off...
Post by Robin
And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier
automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero
reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here.
the French peage are routinely almost empty.
You've not tried driving down one while the Tour de France was in the area!
Oh

so one day every 5 years negates my point, does it?

tim
Graeme Wall
2018-12-16 18:47:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by b***@4wykgdm_2o.edu
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000
Post by Robin
I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.
Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff around
with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just
handing over 2 quid, done, drive off...
Post by Robin
And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier
automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero
reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here.
the French peage are routinely almost empty.
You've not tried driving down one while the Tour de France was in the area!
Oh
so one day every 5 years negates my point, does it?
Oh dear, and the TdF is every year I believe and takes rather more than
one day.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
tim...
2018-12-20 17:41:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by tim...
Post by b***@4wykgdm_2o.edu
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000
Post by Robin
I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.
Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff around
with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just
handing over 2 quid, done, drive off...
Post by Robin
And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier
automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero
reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here.
the French peage are routinely almost empty.
You've not tried driving down one while the Tour de France was in the area!
Oh
so one day every 5 years negates my point, does it?
Oh dear, and the TdF is every year I believe and takes rather more than
one day.
but it only closes each road for one day

and rarely uses the same roads year after year

tim
Post by Graeme Wall
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
b***@4_nc1kp2pzwrd71du.ac.uk
2018-12-17 09:46:48 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 14:30:24 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by b***@4wykgdm_2o.edu
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000
Post by Robin
I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.
Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff around
with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just
handing over 2 quid, done, drive off...
Post by Robin
And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier
automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero
reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here.
the French peage are routinely almost empty. The same cannot be said of the
Out in the sticks yes, near big cities not always. Anyway, the northbound
dartfords queues have never been due to the tolls, its always been down to
squeezing one of the busiest motorways in europe 6 lanes down + local feeder
roads into 4 narrow lanes with a de facto speed limit of around 25mph on a
good day.
Roland Perry
2018-12-17 10:38:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@4_nc1kp2pzwrd71du.ac.uk
Post by tim...
Post by b***@4wykgdm_2o.edu
The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier
automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero
reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here.
the French peage are routinely almost empty. The same cannot be said of the
Out in the sticks yes, near big cities not always. Anyway, the northbound
dartfords queues have never been due to the tolls, its always been down to
squeezing one of the busiest motorways in europe 6 lanes down + local feeder
roads into 4 narrow lanes with a de facto speed limit of around 25mph on a
good day.
Not "always". Originally it was about squeezing two lanes of dual
carriageway, and some local traffic, into a single-bore tunnel.
--
Roland Perry
b***@s898se.org
2018-12-17 11:34:58 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 10:38:57 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@4_nc1kp2pzwrd71du.ac.uk
Post by tim...
Post by b***@4wykgdm_2o.edu
The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier
automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero
reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here.
the French peage are routinely almost empty. The same cannot be said of the
Out in the sticks yes, near big cities not always. Anyway, the northbound
dartfords queues have never been due to the tolls, its always been down to
squeezing one of the busiest motorways in europe 6 lanes down + local feeder
roads into 4 narrow lanes with a de facto speed limit of around 25mph on a
good day.
Not "always". Originally it was about squeezing two lanes of dual
carriageway, and some local traffic, into a single-bore tunnel.
No doubt it was just as bad then. The point still stands that it doesn't matter
what you do with the northbound tolls, the tunnels themselves are the
bottleneck.
Someone Somewhere
2018-12-17 10:57:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@4_nc1kp2pzwrd71du.ac.uk
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 14:30:24 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by b***@4wykgdm_2o.edu
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000
Post by Robin
I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.
Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff around
with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just
handing over 2 quid, done, drive off...
Post by Robin
And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier
automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero
reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here.
the French peage are routinely almost empty. The same cannot be said of the
Out in the sticks yes, near big cities not always. Anyway, the northbound
dartfords queues have never been due to the tolls, its always been down to
squeezing one of the busiest motorways in europe 6 lanes down + local feeder
roads into 4 narrow lanes with a de facto speed limit of around 25mph on a
good day.
More to the point, British drivers seem to have forgotten how to merge
efficiently these days so any narrowing of the road consistently causes
massive delays wherever it is.

Same as they have forgotten that the national speed limit is 60 (70
where there are multiple lanes and a central reservation) and not 50.

Also that any maneuver should, as a default, not cause another road user
to have to brake (see my first point on merging, but also the idiots at
motorway junctions who pull out a lane without regard to what is coming
behind them because they think it is the "safer" thing to do, and to
avoid having to merge effectively with traffic entering the motorway)..
b***@h6e656qu_ava8eooqex8zbq6ea.com
2018-12-17 11:45:36 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 10:57:08 +0000
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by b***@4_nc1kp2pzwrd71du.ac.uk
Out in the sticks yes, near big cities not always. Anyway, the northbound
dartfords queues have never been due to the tolls, its always been down to
squeezing one of the busiest motorways in europe 6 lanes down + local feeder
roads into 4 narrow lanes with a de facto speed limit of around 25mph on a
good day.
More to the point, British drivers seem to have forgotten how to merge
efficiently these days so any narrowing of the road consistently causes
massive delays wherever it is.
It only takes 1 or 2 idiots to start merging half a mile before the restriction
to fuck everything else up. Usually they're the sort of idiot who thinks its
"bad form" to drive all the way down and merge at the end even though thats the
most efficient use of road space and then deliberately try and block anyone
who does.
Post by Someone Somewhere
Same as they have forgotten that the national speed limit is 60 (70
where there are multiple lanes and a central reservation) and not 50.
50? If only. I was stuck with about a dozen other cars behind some plank the
other day doing 30 on the A41 out in the sticks.
Post by Someone Somewhere
motorway junctions who pull out a lane without regard to what is coming
behind them because they think it is the "safer" thing to do, and to
avoid having to merge effectively with traffic entering the motorway)..
Some drivers seem to think a rear view mirror is an optional extra.
tim...
2018-12-20 17:58:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@4_nc1kp2pzwrd71du.ac.uk
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 14:30:24 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by b***@4wykgdm_2o.edu
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:05:26 +0000
Post by Robin
I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.
Very convenient. Find someone to ask for a number, phone number, faff around
with endless menus. I mean who wouldn't want to do that compared to just
handing over 2 quid, done, drive off...
Post by Robin
And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.
The french peages allow you to use electronic tokens that open the barrier
automaticaly or the option of credit card or cash payments. Theres zero
reason a similar system couldn't have been adopted here.
the French peage are routinely almost empty. The same cannot be said of the
Out in the sticks yes, near big cities not always. Anyway, the northbound
dartfords queues have never been due to the tolls, its always been down to
squeezing one of the busiest motorways in europe 6 lanes down + local feeder
roads
it's 4 lanes plus local feeder road(s)

tim
b***@8d907ku7m1wwn2uynaprg_48w.org
2018-12-10 14:42:59 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:11:04 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@5aqdpqwecmk2tw6671pdv08mb.net
All the mayors idiotic tax will achieve is sending perfectly good cars to
the scrapheap too early
I really don't think anyone is going to scrap a 2013 car because of this
tax.
Not 2013 cars, but 10 year old cars maybe. Regardless they'd probably end up
selling them and this has a trickle down effect where somewhere along the line
a car gets scrapped that otherwise wouldn't have been.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@5aqdpqwecmk2tw6671pdv08mb.net
Unlike with the congestion charge zone, this new zone won't have just an
in/out
Post by b***@5aqdpqwecmk2tw6671pdv08mb.net
line you can avoid.
And I was describing the Cambridge congestion charge, not London's
I know, just saying.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@5aqdpqwecmk2tw6671pdv08mb.net
Even if you start your journey in the zone and never leave it you'll
still apparently be caught by ANPR (presumably yet to be installed) and
charged/fined.
I was mainly addressing Recliner's comment that his car dealership was
just inside the [London] cordon. Which suggests he's starting just
outside.
Well as he likes to remind us, money is no object for him so coughing up
12.50 for the occasional service shouldn't be too onorous.
Post by Roland Perry
While there does have to be some line drawn on the map, it's
disproportionate that someone whose errands takes them as little as
perhaps a mile inside on an irregular basis should be charged as much as
someone driving for hours inside.
Agreed, but then the ultimate goal is to clear traffic off the roads and so
the more unfair it is the closer that goal will be met.
Post by Roland Perry
Accidental experiments, in Cambridge again, appear to show that people
will go to considerable lengths to avoid paying quite small fees for
parking (or petrol at 1p/litre cheaper).
Certainly.
Post by Roland Perry
Getting back to other modes of transport for a moment, what if one of
the radial railways suffers a glitch, and people at a station just
inside the cordon where the trains have ground to a halt, start phoning
home (maybe one station beyond the cordon) for a lift, then this stealth
tax on the rescue mission is going to grate severely.
Don't forget the stealth tax on the East London Line. The whole line is
zone 2 or 6 apart from shoreditch high street. Cynically put in zone 1 so
they can charge the maximum oyster fare and prevent west and north londoners
using the overground as a way to avoid paying for zone 1 on the tube to get to
the City or Canary wharf. Yes you could go to straford but that would be a hell
of a roundabout route.
tim...
2018-12-14 13:11:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@5aqdpqwecmk2tw6671pdv08mb.net
On Sun, 9 Dec 2018 17:15:08 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ulez-fee-the-new-london-pollution-
charge-may-be-mayor-sadiq-khans-poll-tax-moment-kf8h2z5hm?shareToken=50
fd0db33f7e78ede69332bfd5bf9172>
"the charge, levied on older and more polluting vehicles...
applies to nearly all diesel cars and vans licensed before
September 2015"
In other words, not just "older" ones, but almost all that aren't
effectively brand new. And of course the ones which escape the charge
are precisely the generation where some manufacturers were recently
caught fiddling the testing.
If they were genuinely wanting this charge to persuade people to buy/use
less-polluting vehicles, it should have been set for diesels at the
previous 2009 Euro-5 standard, because not everyone can afford to scrap
their three year old car.
Yes, this is turning into a hefty stealth tax, affecting far more vehicles
and their owners than was previously recognised. As you say, other than the
newest models, practically all diesels would incur the daily tax.
Although I don't drive inside the M25 very much (mainly rat-runs around
accident blockages on the M25) I might have not so willingly recently
bought a Euro-4 diesel car if a Euro-5 one would have been OK according
to the mayor.
All the mayors idiotic tax will achieve is sending perfectly good cars to
the scrapheap too early
I really don't think anyone is going to scrap a 2013 car because of this
tax.
Post by b***@5aqdpqwecmk2tw6671pdv08mb.net
which - if they're replaced - will released a whole
lot more pollution into the atmosphere. That and a huge rise in the number of
cloned and foreign plates being used inside the zone which coupled with the
total lack of traffic police these days will just lead to people taking the
piss.
All this because of his dogmatic attachment to his no rise in fares policy
and the screwup that is crossrail.
Post by Roland Perry
People inside the cordon would not have very often passed the cordon
[outbound] in their normal lives, and hence would rarely have had to
pay.
Unlike with the congestion charge zone, this new zone won't have just an in/out
line you can avoid.
And I was describing the Cambridge congestion charge, not London's
Post by b***@5aqdpqwecmk2tw6671pdv08mb.net
Even if you start your journey in the zone and never leave it you'll still
apparently be caught by ANPR (presumably yet to be installed) and
charged/fined.
I was mainly addressing Recliner's comment that his car dealership was
just inside the [London] cordon. Which suggests he's starting just
outside.
While there does have to be some line drawn on the map, it's
disproportionate that someone whose errands takes them as little as
perhaps a mile inside on an irregular basis should be charged as much as
someone driving for hours inside.
Accidental experiments, in Cambridge again, appear to show that people
will go to considerable lengths to avoid paying quite small fees for
parking (or petrol at 1p/litre cheaper).
I drove out of my way for petrol that I thought was going to be 1ppl cheaper

and when I got there it was 6ppl Kerr-Ching.

tim
b***@gjxv92rk9e1ao3xz.edu
2018-12-14 15:23:23 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 13:11:58 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Accidental experiments, in Cambridge again, appear to show that people
will go to considerable lengths to avoid paying quite small fees for
parking (or petrol at 1p/litre cheaper).
I drove out of my way for petrol that I thought was going to be 1ppl cheaper
Assuming you put in 10 gallons of fuel (which is more than most people) that
would have saved you a mere 45p. Its highly likely you would have used more
than than in fuel going more than a few miles out of your way in traffic. So
whats the point?
tim...
2018-12-14 13:08:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@5aqdpqwecmk2tw6671pdv08mb.net
On Sun, 9 Dec 2018 17:15:08 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ulez-fee-the-new-london-pollution-
charge-may-be-mayor-sadiq-khans-poll-tax-moment-kf8h2z5hm?shareToken=50
fd0db33f7e78ede69332bfd5bf9172>
"the charge, levied on older and more polluting vehicles...
applies to nearly all diesel cars and vans licensed before
September 2015"
In other words, not just "older" ones, but almost all that aren't
effectively brand new. And of course the ones which escape the charge
are precisely the generation where some manufacturers were recently
caught fiddling the testing.
If they were genuinely wanting this charge to persuade people to buy/use
less-polluting vehicles, it should have been set for diesels at the
previous 2009 Euro-5 standard, because not everyone can afford to scrap
their three year old car.
Yes, this is turning into a hefty stealth tax, affecting far more vehicles
and their owners than was previously recognised. As you say, other than the
newest models, practically all diesels would incur the daily tax.
Although I don't drive inside the M25 very much (mainly rat-runs around
accident blockages on the M25) I might have not so willingly recently
bought a Euro-4 diesel car if a Euro-5 one would have been OK according
to the mayor.
All the mayors idiotic tax will achieve is sending perfectly good cars to
the scrapheap too early which - if they're replaced - will released a whole
lot more pollution into the atmosphere. That and a huge rise in the number of
cloned and foreign plates being used inside the zone which coupled with the
total lack of traffic police these days will just lead to people taking the
piss.
All this because of his dogmatic attachment to his no rise in fares policy
and the screwup that is crossrail.
Post by Roland Perry
People inside the cordon would not have very often passed the cordon
[outbound] in their normal lives, and hence would rarely have had to
pay.
Unlike with the congestion charge zone, this new zone won't have just an in/out
line you can avoid.
CCZ doesn't have an in/out line that can be avoided

They (is it still Crapitia?) have (in theory) roving vehicles recording reg
numbers of cars that start and finish their journey wholly within the zone
and of cars parked up in bays that don't qualify for exemption (I think
that's all on street bays except residents bays, BICBW).

tim
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