Discussion:
First two HS2 tunnels completed at Euston
(too old to reply)
Recliner
2021-01-27 22:36:54 UTC
Permalink
From
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-protesters-dig-secret-100ft-tunnel-under-london-park-spcxnw65j>

Protesters secretly constructed two tunnels supported by an elaborate “ant
nest” of passages without detection near the site of HS2, embarrassing the
security operation surrounding Britain’s biggest infrastructure project.

Climate campaigners protesting against the construction of the
multibillion-pound railway line spent months digging 100ft of passages and
chambers 15ft below Euston Square Gardens in north London.

They moved dirt from the two main tunnels, codenamed Crystal and Kelvin, to
the surface with buckets and hid it in the walls of their makeshift wooden
fort. The entrance is concealed from public view by the planks and
tarpaulin that form the main structure of the camp.

HS2 officials learnt about the tunnels early this morning after securing
temporary legal possession of the site from the landowners and sending in
about 100 bailiffs to evict dozens of activists living in treetops, tunnels
and the main compound.

A large number of activists were removed around 4.30am, prompting about
eight people to retreat underground with food, sleeping mats, battery packs
and juggling balls. The group sealed the entrance and vowed to continue
digging in an attempt to delay development as much as possible. The group
was led by the veteran activist Swampy, real name Daniel Hooper, who was
described by campaigners as a “master digger”.

Others fled to four tree houses, which they move between using zip lines.
However, most had been removed by bailiffs by about 2pm. Some who were
caught on the ground were dragged off the site.

Camden council, the former landowner, initially suggested it was not
responsible for failing to spot the tunnels, saying that ownership of the
site had been taken over by Network Rail. However, after Network Rail said
it was not responsible for managing the site, the council admitted it had
not noticed the digging during assessments of the camp.

A Camden Council spokesman said: “We were not aware these tunnels were
being built. Clearly the protesters have a responsibility themselves not to
act in ways which could endanger their lives.”

An HS2 spokeswoman said: “To ensure HS2 is able to deliver its major
benefits to the UK on time, certain works must take place at designated
times. HS2 has taken legal temporary possession of Euston Square Gardens
East in order to progress with works necessary for the construction of the
new Euston station.

“These protests are a danger to the safety of the protestors, our staff and
the general public, and put unnecessary strain on the emergency services
during a pandemic. The protesters are currently trespassing on land that is
legally possessed by HS2.”

A spokesman for the Metropolitan Police said: “We have only been involved
today in order to prevent breach of peace. Any questions regarding the
tunnels would need to be directed to the landowner and security firm.

“Six arrests have been made at the site of a protest in Euston Square
Gardens. One man was arrested for breach of the peace and a short time
later was de-arrested and released.

“A woman was arrested under the Trade Union and Labour Relations
(Consolidation) Act. One man was arrested under the Public Order Act, while
a further three men were arrested under the Health Protection (Coronavirus)
Regulations 2020. A police presence remains at the site to prevent further
potential breaches of the peace and to uphold Covid legislation.”

HS2 Rebellion, an alliance of activists who made the camp, spent months
burrowing “in secret” under the park.

“It’s not just one straight shaft down there, it’s like an ant nest with
lots of different routes,” one activist who dug 20ft of the tunnel said.
“The aim is to make it very complicated to delay the development as much as
possible. They are still digging now.”

The activists set up a Tree Protection Camp in the park in September after
warning that Euston Square Gardens would be replaced with a temporary taxi
rank before being sold off to developers.

“It will take them a week to get people down and out of the tunnels. The
guys in the trees are supplied with ‘squirrel food’ – canned food and nuts
– so they can stay up there for ages.”

The alliance of climate campaigners said that the tunnellers had worked
“around the clock” to create the tunnel network, which is codenamed Calvin,
and were prepared to occupy it “for as long as it takes to stop HS2”.

A spokesman said: “They believe they can hold out in the tunnel for several
weeks and hope in this time that a court will rule against HS2 for breaking
the law by attempting an eviction without a court order and during the
national coronavirus lockdown.”

… continues
Marland
2021-01-27 23:29:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
From
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-protesters-dig-secret-100ft-tunnel-under-london-park-spcxnw65j>
Protesters secretly constructed two tunnels supported by an elaborate “ant
nest” of passages without detection near the site of HS2, embarrassing the
security operation surrounding Britain’s biggest infrastructure project.
Climate campaigners protesting against the construction of the
multibillion-pound railway line spent months digging 100ft of passages and
chambers 15ft below Euston Square Gardens in north London.
They moved dirt from the two main tunnels, codenamed Crystal and Kelvin, to
the surface with buckets and hid it in the walls of their makeshift wooden
fort. The entrance is concealed from public view by the planks and
tarpaulin that form the main structure of the camp.
HS2 officials learnt about the tunnels early this morning after securing
temporary legal possession of the site from the landowners and sending in
about 100 bailiffs to evict dozens of activists living in treetops, tunnels
and the main compound.
A large number of activists were removed around 4.30am, prompting about
eight people to retreat underground with food, sleeping mats, battery packs
and juggling balls. The group sealed the entrance and vowed to continue
digging in an attempt to delay development as much as possible. The group
was led by the veteran activist Swampy, real name Daniel Hooper, who was
described by campaigners as a “master digger”.
Others fled to four tree houses, which they move between using zip lines.
However, most had been removed by bailiffs by about 2pm. Some who were
caught on the ground were dragged off the site.
Camden council, the former landowner, initially suggested it was not
responsible for failing to spot the tunnels, saying that ownership of the
site had been taken over by Network Rail. However, after Network Rail said
it was not responsible for managing the site, the council admitted it had
not noticed the digging during assessments of the camp.
A Camden Council spokesman said: “We were not aware these tunnels were
being built. Clearly the protesters have a responsibility themselves not to
act in ways which could endanger their lives.”
An HS2 spokeswoman said: “To ensure HS2 is able to deliver its major
benefits to the UK on time, certain works must take place at designated
times. HS2 has taken legal temporary possession of Euston Square Gardens
East in order to progress with works necessary for the construction of the
new Euston station.
“These protests are a danger to the safety of the protestors, our staff and
the general public, and put unnecessary strain on the emergency services
during a pandemic. The protesters are currently trespassing on land that is
legally possessed by HS2.”
A spokesman for the Metropolitan Police said: “We have only been involved
today in order to prevent breach of peace. Any questions regarding the
tunnels would need to be directed to the landowner and security firm.
“Six arrests have been made at the site of a protest in Euston Square
Gardens. One man was arrested for breach of the peace and a short time
later was de-arrested and released.
“A woman was arrested under the Trade Union and Labour Relations
(Consolidation) Act. One man was arrested under the Public Order Act, while
a further three men were arrested under the Health Protection (Coronavirus)
Regulations 2020. A police presence remains at the site to prevent further
potential breaches of the peace and to uphold Covid legislation.”
HS2 Rebellion, an alliance of activists who made the camp, spent months
burrowing “in secret” under the park.
“It’s not just one straight shaft down there, it’s like an ant nest with
lots of different routes,” one activist who dug 20ft of the tunnel said.
“The aim is to make it very complicated to delay the development as much as
possible. They are still digging now.”
The activists set up a Tree Protection Camp in the park in September after
warning that Euston Square Gardens would be replaced with a temporary taxi
rank before being sold off to developers.
“It will take them a week to get people down and out of the tunnels. The
guys in the trees are supplied with ‘squirrel food’ – canned food and nuts
– so they can stay up there for ages.”
The alliance of climate campaigners said that the tunnellers had worked
“around the clock” to create the tunnel network, which is codenamed Calvin,
and were prepared to occupy it “for as long as it takes to stop HS2”.
A spokesman said: “They believe they can hold out in the tunnel for several
weeks and hope in this time that a court will rule against HS2 for breaking
the law by attempting an eviction without a court order and during the
national coronavirus lockdown.”
… continues
One of these may be useful.

http://rodenator.eu


GH
s***@grumpysods.com
2021-01-28 10:49:46 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 27 Jan 2021 22:36:54 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
From
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-protesters-dig-secret-100ft-tunnel-unde
r-london-park-spcxnw65j>
Protesters secretly constructed two tunnels supported by an elaborate “ant
nest” of passages without detection near the site of HS2, embarrassing the
security operation surrounding Britain’s biggest infrastructure project.
Of all the places to prevent HS2 construction happening, Euston would be
right at the bottom of my list. Ancient woodland I can understand but Euston
hasn't been a pleasent cityscape since the 1970s.
Roland Perry
2021-01-28 11:11:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
On Wed, 27 Jan 2021 22:36:54 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
From
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-protesters-dig-secret-100ft-tun
nel-unde
r-london-park-spcxnw65j>
Protesters secretly constructed two tunnels supported by an elaborate “ant
nest� of passages without detection near the site of HS2, embarrassing the
security operation surrounding Britain’s biggest infrastructure project.
Of all the places to prevent HS2 construction happening, Euston would be
right at the bottom of my list. Ancient woodland I can understand but Euston
hasn't been a pleasent cityscape since the 1970s.
I think you'll find that these people mistakenly believe that their
attempts to sabotage the OOC-Euston part of HS2 will result in the
entire project being cancelled.
--
Roland Perry
s***@grumpysods.com
2021-01-28 11:26:53 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 11:11:45 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
Of all the places to prevent HS2 construction happening, Euston would be
right at the bottom of my list. Ancient woodland I can understand but Euston
hasn't been a pleasent cityscape since the 1970s.
I think you'll find that these people mistakenly believe that their
attempts to sabotage the OOC-Euston part of HS2 will result in the
entire project being cancelled.
They're not stupid and know that won't happen so I don't understand what
they're doing. If you're protesting in some woodland or about some trees
there's a reasonable chance you might have some effect and the route is
diverted slightly, its happened in the past with various road projects. But
nothing is going to stop construction at Euston so ... wtf?
Graeme Wall
2021-01-28 17:17:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 11:11:45 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
Of all the places to prevent HS2 construction happening, Euston would be
right at the bottom of my list. Ancient woodland I can understand but Euston
hasn't been a pleasent cityscape since the 1970s.
I think you'll find that these people mistakenly believe that their
attempts to sabotage the OOC-Euston part of HS2 will result in the
entire project being cancelled.
They're not stupid and know that won't happen so I don't understand what
they're doing. If you're protesting in some woodland or about some trees
there's a reasonable chance you might have some effect and the route is
diverted slightly, its happened in the past with various road projects. But
nothing is going to stop construction at Euston so ... wtf?
It's all about self-publicity.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Sam Wilson
2021-01-28 20:53:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 11:11:45 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
Of all the places to prevent HS2 construction happening, Euston would be
right at the bottom of my list. Ancient woodland I can understand but Euston
hasn't been a pleasent cityscape since the 1970s.
I think you'll find that these people mistakenly believe that their
attempts to sabotage the OOC-Euston part of HS2 will result in the
entire project being cancelled.
They're not stupid and know that won't happen so I don't understand what
they're doing. If you're protesting in some woodland or about some trees
there's a reasonable chance you might have some effect and the route is
diverted slightly, its happened in the past with various road projects. But
nothing is going to stop construction at Euston so ... wtf?
It's all about self-publicity.
They interviewed a protester on the radio and he made some fairly valid
points about woodland and reducing travel requirements but blew it all by
saying we already had a railway between London and Birmingham so we didn’t
need another one.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
s***@grumpysods.com
2021-01-29 09:23:15 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:17:11 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 11:11:45 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
Of all the places to prevent HS2 construction happening, Euston would be
right at the bottom of my list. Ancient woodland I can understand but
Euston
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
hasn't been a pleasent cityscape since the 1970s.
I think you'll find that these people mistakenly believe that their
attempts to sabotage the OOC-Euston part of HS2 will result in the
entire project being cancelled.
They're not stupid and know that won't happen so I don't understand what
they're doing. If you're protesting in some woodland or about some trees
there's a reasonable chance you might have some effect and the route is
diverted slightly, its happened in the past with various road projects. But
nothing is going to stop construction at Euston so ... wtf?
It's all about self-publicity.
Possibly, but if that was the case why was it all hush hush until they were
rumbled? Unless they planned a big Ta-da! reveal at some point. To me it
seems they've expended all that effort digging tunnels for no gain
whatsoever - they'd have got far more publicity just blocking euston road
holding some placards for a morning.
Graeme Wall
2021-01-29 10:11:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:17:11 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 11:11:45 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
Of all the places to prevent HS2 construction happening, Euston would be
right at the bottom of my list. Ancient woodland I can understand but
Euston
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
hasn't been a pleasent cityscape since the 1970s.
I think you'll find that these people mistakenly believe that their
attempts to sabotage the OOC-Euston part of HS2 will result in the
entire project being cancelled.
They're not stupid and know that won't happen so I don't understand what
they're doing. If you're protesting in some woodland or about some trees
there's a reasonable chance you might have some effect and the route is
diverted slightly, its happened in the past with various road projects. But
nothing is going to stop construction at Euston so ... wtf?
It's all about self-publicity.
Possibly, but if that was the case why was it all hush hush until they were
rumbled? Unless they planned a big Ta-da! reveal at some point. To me it
seems they've expended all that effort digging tunnels for no gain
whatsoever - they'd have got far more publicity just blocking euston road
holding some placards for a morning.
But that's not what they do, this way they get more individual publicity
when they finally reveal themselves. which is what they want, they are
not actually intersted in the notional cause they are supporting. It was
the same with the Newbury by-pass protesters who went on and on about
the rare plants that were being destroyed and then went and camped on
the site of the largest colony of the rarest plants because they didn't
know, or care, what they were.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
s***@grumpysods.com
2021-01-29 10:39:38 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 10:11:44 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:17:11 +0000
Possibly, but if that was the case why was it all hush hush until they were
rumbled? Unless they planned a big Ta-da! reveal at some point. To me it
seems they've expended all that effort digging tunnels for no gain
whatsoever - they'd have got far more publicity just blocking euston road
holding some placards for a morning.
But that's not what they do, this way they get more individual publicity
when they finally reveal themselves. which is what they want, they are
not actually intersted in the notional cause they are supporting. It was
the same with the Newbury by-pass protesters who went on and on about
the rare plants that were being destroyed and then went and camped on
the site of the largest colony of the rarest plants because they didn't
know, or care, what they were.
Well yes, half of them do seem to be professional dossers who couldn't hold
down a proper job if their lives depended on it. The other half being well
off middle class 20 something uni dropouts who haven't grown out of the
rebelling against mummy and daddy stage.
Recliner
2021-01-29 16:32:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 10:11:44 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:17:11 +0000
Possibly, but if that was the case why was it all hush hush until they were
rumbled? Unless they planned a big Ta-da! reveal at some point. To me it
seems they've expended all that effort digging tunnels for no gain
whatsoever - they'd have got far more publicity just blocking euston road
holding some placards for a morning.
But that's not what they do, this way they get more individual publicity
when they finally reveal themselves. which is what they want, they are
not actually intersted in the notional cause they are supporting. It was
the same with the Newbury by-pass protesters who went on and on about
the rare plants that were being destroyed and then went and camped on
the site of the largest colony of the rarest plants because they didn't
know, or care, what they were.
Well yes, half of them do seem to be professional dossers who couldn't hold
down a proper job if their lives depended on it. The other half being well
off middle class 20 something uni dropouts who haven't grown out of the
rebelling against mummy and daddy stage.
Indeed so. For example:
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-euston-tunnel-protesters-hail-from-off-grid-scottish-island-gometra-3mfjq9bzl?shareToken=316a369ff6fa16c090c5ba8ef0ecdacf>

I think this bunch are the usual Extinction Rebellion crowd, who are
essentially anti-capitalist. They'll protest against anything that they see
as a manifestation of Big Business.
d***@rubbishworld.co.uk
2021-01-29 16:59:13 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 16:32:32 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 10:11:44 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:17:11 +0000
Possibly, but if that was the case why was it all hush hush until they were
rumbled? Unless they planned a big Ta-da! reveal at some point. To me it
seems they've expended all that effort digging tunnels for no gain
whatsoever - they'd have got far more publicity just blocking euston road
holding some placards for a morning.
But that's not what they do, this way they get more individual publicity
when they finally reveal themselves. which is what they want, they are
not actually intersted in the notional cause they are supporting. It was
the same with the Newbury by-pass protesters who went on and on about
the rare plants that were being destroyed and then went and camped on
the site of the largest colony of the rarest plants because they didn't
know, or care, what they were.
Well yes, half of them do seem to be professional dossers who couldn't hold
down a proper job if their lives depended on it. The other half being well
off middle class 20 something uni dropouts who haven't grown out of the
rebelling against mummy and daddy stage.
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-euston-tunnel-protesters-hail-from-off-
grid-scottish-island-gometra-3mfjq9bzl?shareToken=316a369ff6fa16c090c5ba8ef0ecd
acf>
Paywall unfortunately.
Post by Recliner
I think this bunch are the usual Extinction Rebellion crowd, who are
essentially anti-capitalist. They'll protest against anything that they see
as a manifestation of Big Business.
Indeed.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2021-01-30 04:55:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@rubbishworld.co.uk
On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 16:32:32 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-euston-tunnel-protesters-hail-from-off-grid-scottish-island-gometra-3mfjq9bzl?shareToken=316a369ff6fa16c090c5ba8ef0ecdacf>
Paywall unfortunately.
Provided you paste the whole URL including the word "shareToken" and the
code following it, it should bypass the paywall for a week or so. Sometimes
the system has a glitch, in which case try again in an hour or so.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Recliner
2021-02-02 11:35:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by d***@rubbishworld.co.uk
On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 16:32:32 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-euston-tunnel-protesters-hail-from-off-grid-scottish-island-gometra-3mfjq9bzl?shareToken=316a369ff6fa16c090c5ba8ef0ecdacf>
Paywall unfortunately.
Provided you paste the whole URL including the word "shareToken" and the
code following it, it should bypass the paywall for a week or so. Sometimes
the system has a glitch, in which case try again in an hour or so.
It runs in the family:
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/swampys-teenage-son-rory-occupying-hs2-protest-tunnels-near-euston-station-with-his-dad-pw3809bdr?shareToken=e96f30dda9fecf672246c48b721c7b36>
Recliner
2021-02-07 11:44:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 17:17:11 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 11:11:45 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
Of all the places to prevent HS2 construction happening, Euston would be
right at the bottom of my list. Ancient woodland I can understand but
Euston
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
hasn't been a pleasent cityscape since the 1970s.
I think you'll find that these people mistakenly believe that their
attempts to sabotage the OOC-Euston part of HS2 will result in the
entire project being cancelled.
They're not stupid and know that won't happen so I don't understand what
they're doing. If you're protesting in some woodland or about some trees
there's a reasonable chance you might have some effect and the route is
diverted slightly, its happened in the past with various road projects. But
nothing is going to stop construction at Euston so ... wtf?
It's all about self-publicity.
Possibly, but if that was the case why was it all hush hush until they were
rumbled? Unless they planned a big Ta-da! reveal at some point. To me it
seems they've expended all that effort digging tunnels for no gain
whatsoever - they'd have got far more publicity just blocking euston road
holding some placards for a morning.
But that's not what they do, this way they get more individual publicity
when they finally reveal themselves. which is what they want, they are
not actually intersted in the notional cause they are supporting. It was
the same with the Newbury by-pass protesters who went on and on about
the rare plants that were being destroyed and then went and camped on
the site of the largest colony of the rarest plants because they didn't
know, or care, what they were.
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-protesters-create-trouble-for-wildlife-n7qdkwppl?shareToken=51460a093ae53a7c105083244c17c4be>

Protesters trying to stop the HS2 rail line destroying a nature reserve
have been accused of polluting a river beside their camp and scaring off
its wildlife.

The HS2 Rebellion camp at Denham Country Park, on the western edge of
London, is on the bank of the River Colne. The surrounding nature reserve
is home to endangered water voles and rich in biodiversity.

However, river quality tests downstream have had their worst results since
the camp expanded last summer. Park volunteers believe the river was
polluted by activists washing their clothes with detergents, or themselves
with soap and shampoo, and chemical run-off from dumped pallets used to
build camp structures.

Water voles, the fastest declining mammal in Britain, are one of the
species that protesters want to protect. But volunteers in the park say
camp fires near their burrow scared off the voles.

Mark Swaby, fishery manager at the country park, said: “There was a water
vole burrow. When the protesters arrived, tents were put up and fires were
lit, one of which was right above the water vole burrow. Needless to say
the water voles moved away. Then in November they were walking around
asking walkers if they had seen any water voles.”

While HS2 Rebellion’s website says activists established the camp to “halt
work, monitor and report wildlife crimes and bear witness to HS2’s ecocide
of the priority habitat wet woodland”, park volunteers believe the camp has
done little to prevent work on the high-speed line — but a lot to damage
wildlife. The camp made headlines in December when the veteran eco-warrior
Daniel Hooper, 47, known as Swampy, was evicted from a bamboo tower built
over the river.

River quality sample tests at a site downstream from the camp typically
find thousands of small invertebrates, such as freshwater shrimp and
mayflies. However, testing in September, when the camp was full, detected
no flies, suggesting they had been killed off by chemicals. A second test
was done two days later and still found nothing. The latest test in
November, when the camp population had shrunk, found a small number of
flies but still fell below the trigger point that suggests a pollution
event.

The test samples were taken from a shallow area of a ford below the
protesters’ camp but upstream from the HS2 compound. Because pollution
rarely travels upstream, and seemed confined to the part of the river near
the camp, volunteers are convinced that it was caused by protesters rather
than HS2.

Eddie Edwards, a local river monitor for the Riverfly Partnership, an
umbrella organisation to protect rivers’ water quality that did the tests,
was one of the team that took the samples in September and November. He
said they had been “horrified” by the results. Asked if he thought the
protest camp was responsible, he said: “Much as I hate to say it, yes.”
m***@potatofield.co.uk
2021-02-08 08:43:38 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 7 Feb 2021 11:44:31 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
But that's not what they do, this way they get more individual publicity
when they finally reveal themselves. which is what they want, they are
not actually intersted in the notional cause they are supporting. It was
the same with the Newbury by-pass protesters who went on and on about
the rare plants that were being destroyed and then went and camped on
the site of the largest colony of the rarest plants because they didn't
know, or care, what they were.
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-protesters-create-trouble-for-wildlife-
n7qdkwppl?shareToken=51460a093ae53a7c105083244c17c4be>
Protesters trying to stop the HS2 rail line destroying a nature reserve
have been accused of polluting a river beside their camp and scaring off
its wildlife.
I suppose their argument would be that their effect is temporary whereas
after HS2 there'll be no nature reserve at all. Regardless of the dubious
actions of the protestors, from what I've seen and read about HS2 there seems
to be very much a "fuck you little people" attitude emanating from them. Only
a few weeks ago they bulldozed some new wood that had been planted by some
school kids a few years back for an eco project somewhere in Bucks IIRC.
Recliner
2021-02-08 09:16:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On Sun, 7 Feb 2021 11:44:31 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
But that's not what they do, this way they get more individual publicity
when they finally reveal themselves. which is what they want, they are
not actually intersted in the notional cause they are supporting. It was
the same with the Newbury by-pass protesters who went on and on about
the rare plants that were being destroyed and then went and camped on
the site of the largest colony of the rarest plants because they didn't
know, or care, what they were.
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-protesters-create-trouble-for-wildlife-
n7qdkwppl?shareToken=51460a093ae53a7c105083244c17c4be>
Protesters trying to stop the HS2 rail line destroying a nature reserve
have been accused of polluting a river beside their camp and scaring off
its wildlife.
I suppose their argument would be that their effect is temporary whereas
after HS2 there'll be no nature reserve at all. Regardless of the dubious
actions of the protestors, from what I've seen and read about HS2 there seems
to be very much a "fuck you little people" attitude emanating from them. Only
a few weeks ago they bulldozed some new wood that had been planted by some
school kids a few years back for an eco project somewhere in Bucks IIRC.
The annoying thing is when the construction access roads cause the damage —
why don't they re-route them if needed? That seems to be the case more
often than damage to the land actually needed for the railway itself.
m***@potatofield.co.uk
2021-02-08 10:39:46 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 09:16:47 -0000 (UTC)
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
I suppose their argument would be that their effect is temporary whereas
after HS2 there'll be no nature reserve at all. Regardless of the dubious
actions of the protestors, from what I've seen and read about HS2 there
seems
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
to be very much a "fuck you little people" attitude emanating from them.
Only
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
a few weeks ago they bulldozed some new wood that had been planted by some
school kids a few years back for an eco project somewhere in Bucks IIRC.
The annoying thing is when the construction access roads cause the damage —
why don't they re-route them if needed? That seems to be the case more
I can only guess cost. Still, once/if HS2 is complete it'll provide a first
class example of the sunken cost fallacy for business students for decades
to come.
Marland
2021-02-08 11:19:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 09:16:47 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
I suppose their argument would be that their effect is temporary whereas
after HS2 there'll be no nature reserve at all. Regardless of the dubious
actions of the protestors, from what I've seen and read about HS2 there
seems
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
to be very much a "fuck you little people" attitude emanating from them.
Only
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
a few weeks ago they bulldozed some new wood that had been planted by some
school kids a few years back for an eco project somewhere in Bucks IIRC.
The annoying thing is when the construction access roads cause the damage —
why don't they re-route them if needed? That seems to be the case more
I can only guess cost. Still, once/if HS2 is complete it'll provide a first
class example of the sunken cost fallacy for business students for decades
to come.
Isn’t that how a lot our infrastructure also got built in the first place?
Many railways were never profitable enough to justify the upheaval they
caused or the financial ruin
both to investors who lost their money or people displaced from businesses
and homes with little or no compensation.
The early London tubes never really made much money but we benefit from the
losses of those who paid for them now. Brunels steam ship ventures ruined
many but 150 years later he is feted as a hero
and the misery forgotten as are the people cleared away to build the large
projects of the Victorian and Edwardian periods which we now we often
admire on various TV programmes.

GH
Roland Perry
2021-02-08 14:25:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 09:16:47 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
I suppose their argument would be that their effect is temporary whereas
after HS2 there'll be no nature reserve at all. Regardless of the dubious
actions of the protestors, from what I've seen and read about HS2 there
seems
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
to be very much a "fuck you little people" attitude emanating from them.
Only
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
a few weeks ago they bulldozed some new wood that had been planted by some
school kids a few years back for an eco project somewhere in Bucks IIRC.
The annoying thing is when the construction access roads cause the damage —
why don't they re-route them if needed? That seems to be the case more
I can only guess cost. Still, once/if HS2 is complete it'll provide a first
class example of the sunken cost fallacy for business students for decades
to come.
Isn’t that how a lot our infrastructure also got built in the first place?
Many railways were never profitable enough to justify the upheaval they
caused or the financial ruin
both to investors who lost their money or people displaced from businesses
and homes with little or no compensation.
The early London tubes never really made much money but we benefit from the
losses of those who paid for them now. Brunels steam ship ventures ruined
many but 150 years later he is feted as a hero
and the misery forgotten as are the people cleared away to build the large
projects of the Victorian and Edwardian periods which we now we often
admire on various TV programmes.
The Great Central Victoria Station in Nottingham (1900-1967) is a
classic example of that.

Gaining more irony every time people suggest reopening its Beeching
closure much-subsequently-built-upon route as an alternative to HS2.
--
Roland Perry
m***@potatofield.co.uk
2021-02-08 16:18:54 UTC
Permalink
On 8 Feb 2021 11:19:46 GMT
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
I can only guess cost. Still, once/if HS2 is complete it'll provide a first
class example of the sunken cost fallacy for business students for decades
to come.
Isn’t that how a lot our infrastructure also got built in the first place?
Many railways were never profitable enough to justify the upheaval they
caused or the financial ruin
both to investors who lost their money or people displaced from businesses
and homes with little or no compensation.
The early London tubes never really made much money but we benefit from the
losses of those who paid for them now. Brunels steam ship ventures ruined
many but 150 years later he is feted as a hero
and the misery forgotten as are the people cleared away to build the large
projects of the Victorian and Edwardian periods which we now we often
admire on various TV programmes.
There are parallels, but I think the difference between HS2 and the examples
you gave is that for most of the latter the benefit to society as a whole
were fairly obvious even if investors lost their shirt. The benefits of HS2
and equivocal at best thought to be frank its hard to point to any that are
realistic. Even the freeing up paths for freight on the WCML won't happen
if pax services on the WCML remain the same after HS2 is open, plus it would
have been simpler and cheaper to just add extra running lines for freight to
the WCML where possible or even build shoert diversion routes.
Recliner
2021-02-08 16:24:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On 8 Feb 2021 11:19:46 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
I can only guess cost. Still, once/if HS2 is complete it'll provide a first
class example of the sunken cost fallacy for business students for decades
to come.
Isn’t that how a lot our infrastructure also got built in the first place?
Many railways were never profitable enough to justify the upheaval they
caused or the financial ruin
both to investors who lost their money or people displaced from businesses
and homes with little or no compensation.
The early London tubes never really made much money but we benefit from the
losses of those who paid for them now. Brunels steam ship ventures ruined
many but 150 years later he is feted as a hero
and the misery forgotten as are the people cleared away to build the large
projects of the Victorian and Edwardian periods which we now we often
admire on various TV programmes.
There are parallels, but I think the difference between HS2 and the examples
you gave is that for most of the latter the benefit to society as a whole
were fairly obvious even if investors lost their shirt. The benefits of HS2
and equivocal at best thought to be frank its hard to point to any that are
realistic. Even the freeing up paths for freight on the WCML won't happen
if pax services on the WCML remain the same after HS2 is open,
By removing the fast, non-stop services from the fast lines, they free up
capacity for more passenger trains on the fast lines, freeing up space for
more freights on the slow lines.
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
plus it would
have been simpler and cheaper to just add extra running lines for freight to
the WCML where possible or even build shoert diversion routes.
No, that would have been far more disruptive and expensive than building a
new doube-track railway through unpopulated areas.
m***@potatofield.co.uk
2021-02-08 17:27:28 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 16:24:29 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
There are parallels, but I think the difference between HS2 and the examples
you gave is that for most of the latter the benefit to society as a whole
were fairly obvious even if investors lost their shirt. The benefits of HS2
and equivocal at best thought to be frank its hard to point to any that are
realistic. Even the freeing up paths for freight on the WCML won't happen
if pax services on the WCML remain the same after HS2 is open,
By removing the fast, non-stop services from the fast lines, they free up
capacity for more passenger trains on the fast lines, freeing up space for
more freights on the slow lines.
Sure, if they get removed. I doubt they will. Do you think the service on
the Central line will be cut back once crossrail opens?
Post by Recliner
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
plus it would
have been simpler and cheaper to just add extra running lines for freight to
the WCML where possible or even build shoert diversion routes.
No, that would have been far more disruptive and expensive than building a
new doube-track railway through unpopulated areas.
Bollocks. Most of the WCML is in countryside, it would have been easy to
build some extra trackwork in those areas. Thats why I said "where possible".
Graeme Wall
2021-02-08 17:36:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 16:24:29 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
There are parallels, but I think the difference between HS2 and the examples
you gave is that for most of the latter the benefit to society as a whole
were fairly obvious even if investors lost their shirt. The benefits of HS2
and equivocal at best thought to be frank its hard to point to any that are
realistic. Even the freeing up paths for freight on the WCML won't happen
if pax services on the WCML remain the same after HS2 is open,
By removing the fast, non-stop services from the fast lines, they free up
capacity for more passenger trains on the fast lines, freeing up space for
more freights on the slow lines.
Sure, if they get removed. I doubt they will. Do you think the service on
the Central line will be cut back once crossrail opens?
Post by Recliner
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
plus it would
have been simpler and cheaper to just add extra running lines for freight to
the WCML where possible or even build shoert diversion routes.
No, that would have been far more disruptive and expensive than building a
new doube-track railway through unpopulated areas.
Bollocks. Most of the WCML is in countryside, it would have been easy to
build some extra trackwork in those areas. Thats why I said "where possible".
And what do you do where it isn't possible?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
m***@potatofield.co.uk
2021-02-09 08:28:02 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 17:36:29 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
Post by Recliner
No, that would have been far more disruptive and expensive than building a
new doube-track railway through unpopulated areas.
Bollocks. Most of the WCML is in countryside, it would have been easy to
build some extra trackwork in those areas. Thats why I said "where possible".
And what do you do where it isn't possible?
Nothing. This new track would be solely for freight and it would mean that
freight trains can run for further without blocking pax trains than they
do now. It doesn't mean they wouldn't have to stop at all. Through cities
they'd still have to share tracks but thats better than the current situation
and certainly better than spending north of 100 billion on a new pax railway
that will probably makde zero difference to freight times.
Graeme Wall
2021-02-09 08:46:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 17:36:29 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
Post by Recliner
No, that would have been far more disruptive and expensive than building a
new doube-track railway through unpopulated areas.
Bollocks. Most of the WCML is in countryside, it would have been easy to
build some extra trackwork in those areas. Thats why I said "where possible".
And what do you do where it isn't possible?
Nothing. This new track would be solely for freight and it would mean that
freight trains can run for further without blocking pax trains than they
do now. It doesn't mean they wouldn't have to stop at all. Through cities
they'd still have to share tracks but thats better than the current situation
and certainly better than spending north of 100 billion on a new pax railway
that will probably makde zero difference to freight times.
So the usual half-arsed British answer which achieves none of the
desired objectives and ultimately costs far more than doing the job
properly in the first place.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
m***@potatofield.co.uk
2021-02-09 10:11:01 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 08:46:23 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
Nothing. This new track would be solely for freight and it would mean that
freight trains can run for further without blocking pax trains than they
do now. It doesn't mean they wouldn't have to stop at all. Through cities
they'd still have to share tracks but thats better than the current situation
and certainly better than spending north of 100 billion on a new pax railway
that will probably makde zero difference to freight times.
So the usual half-arsed British answer which achieves none of the
desired objectives and ultimately costs far more than doing the job
properly in the first place.
So you think spending 100B+ on a railway to shave off 30 mins for pax trains
and as yet unknown time (possibly zero) for freight trains is a good use of
taxpayers money do you?

I'll take the half arsed solution that would probably be 1/10th the cost or
less given the shit stew the economy is now in thanks to the covid hysteria.
Graeme Wall
2021-02-09 10:12:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 08:46:23 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
Nothing. This new track would be solely for freight and it would mean that
freight trains can run for further without blocking pax trains than they
do now. It doesn't mean they wouldn't have to stop at all. Through cities
they'd still have to share tracks but thats better than the current situation
and certainly better than spending north of 100 billion on a new pax railway
that will probably makde zero difference to freight times.
So the usual half-arsed British answer which achieves none of the
desired objectives and ultimately costs far more than doing the job
properly in the first place.
So you think spending 100B+ on a railway to shave off 30 mins for pax trains
and as yet unknown time (possibly zero) for freight trains is a good use of
taxpayers money do you?
It's not about saving time on freight trains but allowing them to run at
all.
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
I'll take the half arsed solution that would probably be 1/10th the cost or
less given the shit stew the economy is now in thanks to the covid hysteria.
Still in denial Neil?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
m***@potatofield.co.uk
2021-02-09 11:29:56 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:12:16 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
So you think spending 100B+ on a railway to shave off 30 mins for pax trains
and as yet unknown time (possibly zero) for freight trains is a good use of
taxpayers money do you?
It's not about saving time on freight trains but allowing them to run at
all.
And having more tracks won't make any difference to that?
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
I'll take the half arsed solution that would probably be 1/10th the cost or
less given the shit stew the economy is now in thanks to the covid hysteria.
Still in denial Neil?
Still coming up with non arguments Greem?
Graeme Wall
2021-02-09 11:53:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:12:16 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
So you think spending 100B+ on a railway to shave off 30 mins for pax trains
and as yet unknown time (possibly zero) for freight trains is a good use of
taxpayers money do you?
It's not about saving time on freight trains but allowing them to run at
all.
And having more tracks won't make any difference to that?
Not 300 yards of extra track in the countryside leading to more flat
jucnction casuing even more congestion and delay
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
I'll take the half arsed solution that would probably be 1/10th the cost or
less given the shit stew the economy is now in thanks to the covid hysteria.
Still in denial Neil?
Still coming up with non arguments Greem?
So still in denial, 100,000 deaths is just down to hysteria is it?

NB I stopped worrying about idiots misspelling my name in kindergarten.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
m***@potatofield.co.uk
2021-02-09 17:15:46 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 11:53:19 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:12:16 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
So you think spending 100B+ on a railway to shave off 30 mins for pax
trains
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
and as yet unknown time (possibly zero) for freight trains is a good use of
taxpayers money do you?
It's not about saving time on freight trains but allowing them to run at
all.
And having more tracks won't make any difference to that?
Not 300 yards of extra track in the countryside leading to more flat
jucnction casuing even more congestion and delay
Are you really going with a lame straw man approach?
Post by Recliner
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
Still in denial Neil?
Still coming up with non arguments Greem?
So still in denial, 100,000 deaths is just down to hysteria is it?
80K people died of hong kong flu in 68. Where were the face nappies and
lockdown then? 600K people die every year in the UK, get over it. You're
just scared.
Post by Recliner
NB I stopped worrying about idiots misspelling my name in kindergarten.
But thats how Graham is pronounced in Haggis country - Greem.
Roland Perry
2021-02-09 10:38:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 08:46:23 +0000
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
Nothing. This new track would be solely for freight and it would mean that
freight trains can run for further without blocking pax trains than they
do now. It doesn't mean they wouldn't have to stop at all. Through cities
they'd still have to share tracks but thats better than the current situation
and certainly better than spending north of 100 billion on a new pax railway
that will probably makde zero difference to freight times.
So the usual half-arsed British answer which achieves none of the
desired objectives and ultimately costs far more than doing the job
properly in the first place.
So you think spending 100B+ on a railway to shave off 30 mins for pax trains
It's more than an hour for many destinations in the Midlands.
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
and as yet unknown time (possibly zero) for freight trains
HS2 isn't for freight trains.
--
Roland Perry
m***@potatofield.co.uk
2021-02-09 11:31:31 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:38:17 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
So the usual half-arsed British answer which achieves none of the
desired objectives and ultimately costs far more than doing the job
properly in the first place.
So you think spending 100B+ on a railway to shave off 30 mins for pax trains
It's more than an hour for many destinations in the Midlands.
Which ones?
Post by Roland Perry
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
and as yet unknown time (possibly zero) for freight trains
HS2 isn't for freight trains.
*sigh*
Roland Perry
2021-02-09 13:31:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:38:17 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
So the usual half-arsed British answer which achieves none of the
desired objectives and ultimately costs far more than doing the job
properly in the first place.
So you think spending 100B+ on a railway to shave off 30 mins for pax trains
It's more than an hour for many destinations in the Midlands.
Which ones?
Birmingham to Leeds, 1hr 9 mins.
--
Roland Perry
m***@potatofield.co.uk
2021-02-09 17:21:16 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 13:31:02 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:38:17 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
So the usual half-arsed British answer which achieves none of the
desired objectives and ultimately costs far more than doing the job
properly in the first place.
So you think spending 100B+ on a railway to shave off 30 mins for pax trains
It's more than an hour for many destinations in the Midlands.
Which ones?
Birmingham to Leeds, 1hr 9 mins.
Wow, so a ~2 hour journey becomes ~1 hour. Well worth the money then.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2021-02-10 06:26:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 13:31:02 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:38:17 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
So the usual half-arsed British answer which achieves none of the
desired objectives and ultimately costs far more than doing the job
properly in the first place.
So you think spending 100B+ on a railway to shave off 30 mins for pax trains
It's more than an hour for many destinations in the Midlands.
Which ones?
Birmingham to Leeds, 1hr 9 mins.
Wow, so a ~2 hour journey becomes ~1 hour. Well worth the money then.
You'd say the same about a road scheme which produced the same journey time
reduction, presumably?


Anna Noyd-Dryver
m***@potatofield.co.uk
2021-02-10 14:36:26 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 10 Feb 2021 06:26:19 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 13:31:02 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:38:17 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
So the usual half-arsed British answer which achieves none of the
desired objectives and ultimately costs far more than doing the job
properly in the first place.
So you think spending 100B+ on a railway to shave off 30 mins for pax
trains
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
It's more than an hour for many destinations in the Midlands.
Which ones?
Birmingham to Leeds, 1hr 9 mins.
Wow, so a ~2 hour journey becomes ~1 hour. Well worth the money then.
You'd say the same about a road scheme which produced the same journey time
reduction, presumably?
Depends where it was and how much it cost. If it cost 100B then forget it.
Roland Perry
2021-02-10 07:00:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 13:31:02 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:38:17 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
So the usual half-arsed British answer which achieves none of the
desired objectives and ultimately costs far more than doing the job
properly in the first place.
So you think spending 100B+ on a railway to shave off 30 mins for pax trains
It's more than an hour for many destinations in the Midlands.
Which ones?
Birmingham to Leeds, 1hr 9 mins.
Wow, so a ~2 hour journey becomes ~1 hour. Well worth the money then.
1:58 becomes 49m, actually.
--
Roland Perry
Tweed
2021-02-08 17:51:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On 8 Feb 2021 11:19:46 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
I can only guess cost. Still, once/if HS2 is complete it'll provide a first
class example of the sunken cost fallacy for business students for decades
to come.
Isn’t that how a lot our infrastructure also got built in the first place?
Many railways were never profitable enough to justify the upheaval they
caused or the financial ruin
both to investors who lost their money or people displaced from businesses
and homes with little or no compensation.
The early London tubes never really made much money but we benefit from the
losses of those who paid for them now. Brunels steam ship ventures ruined
many but 150 years later he is feted as a hero
and the misery forgotten as are the people cleared away to build the large
projects of the Victorian and Edwardian periods which we now we often
admire on various TV programmes.
There are parallels, but I think the difference between HS2 and the examples
you gave is that for most of the latter the benefit to society as a whole
were fairly obvious even if investors lost their shirt. The benefits of HS2
and equivocal at best thought to be frank its hard to point to any that are
realistic. Even the freeing up paths for freight on the WCML won't happen
if pax services on the WCML remain the same after HS2 is open,
By removing the fast, non-stop services from the fast lines, they free up
capacity for more passenger trains on the fast lines, freeing up space for
more freights on the slow lines.
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
plus it would
have been simpler and cheaper to just add extra running lines for freight to
the WCML where possible or even build shoert diversion routes.
No, that would have been far more disruptive and expensive than building a
new doube-track railway through unpopulated areas.
Genuine question: is there hard evidence for the oft quoted “the WCML is
full” or is this based on extrapolating previous growth with an optimistic
ever upwards line of the graph?

Such predictions, in whatever industry, often fail to come to pass.
Graeme Wall
2021-02-08 18:59:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by Recliner
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On 8 Feb 2021 11:19:46 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
I can only guess cost. Still, once/if HS2 is complete it'll provide a first
class example of the sunken cost fallacy for business students for decades
to come.
Isn’t that how a lot our infrastructure also got built in the first place?
Many railways were never profitable enough to justify the upheaval they
caused or the financial ruin
both to investors who lost their money or people displaced from businesses
and homes with little or no compensation.
The early London tubes never really made much money but we benefit from the
losses of those who paid for them now. Brunels steam ship ventures ruined
many but 150 years later he is feted as a hero
and the misery forgotten as are the people cleared away to build the large
projects of the Victorian and Edwardian periods which we now we often
admire on various TV programmes.
There are parallels, but I think the difference between HS2 and the examples
you gave is that for most of the latter the benefit to society as a whole
were fairly obvious even if investors lost their shirt. The benefits of HS2
and equivocal at best thought to be frank its hard to point to any that are
realistic. Even the freeing up paths for freight on the WCML won't happen
if pax services on the WCML remain the same after HS2 is open,
By removing the fast, non-stop services from the fast lines, they free up
capacity for more passenger trains on the fast lines, freeing up space for
more freights on the slow lines.
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
plus it would
have been simpler and cheaper to just add extra running lines for freight to
the WCML where possible or even build shoert diversion routes.
No, that would have been far more disruptive and expensive than building a
new doube-track railway through unpopulated areas.
Genuine question: is there hard evidence for the oft quoted “the WCML is
full” or is this based on extrapolating previous growth with an optimistic
ever upwards line of the graph?
Such predictions, in whatever industry, often fail to come to pass.
See PUG 2
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Jeremy Double
2021-02-08 19:17:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 09:16:47 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
I suppose their argument would be that their effect is temporary whereas
after HS2 there'll be no nature reserve at all. Regardless of the dubious
actions of the protestors, from what I've seen and read about HS2 there
seems
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
to be very much a "fuck you little people" attitude emanating from them.
Only
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
a few weeks ago they bulldozed some new wood that had been planted by some
school kids a few years back for an eco project somewhere in Bucks IIRC.
The annoying thing is when the construction access roads cause the damage —
why don't they re-route them if needed? That seems to be the case more
I can only guess cost. Still, once/if HS2 is complete it'll provide a first
class example of the sunken cost fallacy for business students for decades
to come.
Isn’t that how a lot our infrastructure also got built in the first place?
Many railways were never profitable enough to justify the upheaval they
caused or the financial ruin
both to investors who lost their money or people displaced from businesses
and homes with little or no compensation.
You might be right about minor- and branch-lines, but the major main lines
must have made a lot of money.

Thinking about their predecessors, the canals, at one point in the 19th
century, the annual dividend on a £100 Birmingham Canal share was £200. If
you were lucky enough to have invested early in the BCN then you were quids
in.
--
Jeremy Double
Recliner
2021-02-08 21:44:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Double
Post by Marland
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 09:16:47 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
I suppose their argument would be that their effect is temporary whereas
after HS2 there'll be no nature reserve at all. Regardless of the dubious
actions of the protestors, from what I've seen and read about HS2 there
seems
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
to be very much a "fuck you little people" attitude emanating from them.
Only
Post by m***@potatofield.co.uk
a few weeks ago they bulldozed some new wood that had been planted by some
school kids a few years back for an eco project somewhere in Bucks IIRC.
The annoying thing is when the construction access roads cause the damage —
why don't they re-route them if needed? That seems to be the case more
I can only guess cost. Still, once/if HS2 is complete it'll provide a first
class example of the sunken cost fallacy for business students for decades
to come.
Isn’t that how a lot our infrastructure also got built in the first place?
Many railways were never profitable enough to justify the upheaval they
caused or the financial ruin
both to investors who lost their money or people displaced from businesses
and homes with little or no compensation.
You might be right about minor- and branch-lines, but the major main lines
must have made a lot of money.
Thinking about their predecessors, the canals, at one point in the 19th
century, the annual dividend on a £100 Birmingham Canal share was £200. If
you were lucky enough to have invested early in the BCN then you were quids
in.
Similarly the original main lines serving the obvious major traffic flows
were very profitable, which led to railway mania, which caused many
marginal or basket case lines to be built. Essentially, main lines built by
about 1860 were very profitable, but most later ones weren't, or not for
long. The GCR was notoriously unprofitable from the beginning, as it was an
expensive way of duplicating the Midland Railway.
m***@potatofield.co.uk
2021-02-09 08:29:30 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 21:44:54 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Jeremy Double
Thinking about their predecessors, the canals, at one point in the 19th
century, the annual dividend on a £100 Birmingham Canal share was £200. If
you were lucky enough to have invested early in the BCN then you were quids
in.
Similarly the original main lines serving the obvious major traffic flows
were very profitable, which led to railway mania, which caused many
marginal or basket case lines to be built. Essentially, main lines built by
about 1860 were very profitable, but most later ones weren't, or not for
long. The GCR was notoriously unprofitable from the beginning, as it was an
expensive way of duplicating the Midland Railway.
Though arguably a faster and more direct route, until it got past nottingham
anyway.
Recliner
2021-01-28 11:35:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
On Wed, 27 Jan 2021 22:36:54 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
From
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-protesters-dig-secret-100ft-tunnel-unde
r-london-park-spcxnw65j>
Protesters secretly constructed two tunnels supported by an elaborate “ant
nest” of passages without detection near the site of HS2, embarrassing the
security operation surrounding Britain’s biggest infrastructure project.
Of all the places to prevent HS2 construction happening, Euston would be
right at the bottom of my list. Ancient woodland I can understand but Euston
hasn't been a pleasent cityscape since the 1970s.
I think they just did it to attract attention. They won't have any effect
on HS2 construction, but they figured that they'd attract more journalists
and spectators to a site in central London than to a treehouse deep in the
countryside.
s***@grumpysods.com
2021-01-28 14:31:47 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 11:35:04 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
On Wed, 27 Jan 2021 22:36:54 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
From
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-protesters-dig-secret-100ft-tunnel-unde
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
Post by Recliner
r-london-park-spcxnw65j>
Protesters secretly constructed two tunnels supported by an elaborate “ant
nest” of passages without detection near the site of HS2, embarrassing the
security operation surrounding Britain’s biggest infrastructure project.
Of all the places to prevent HS2 construction happening, Euston would be
right at the bottom of my list. Ancient woodland I can understand but Euston
hasn't been a pleasent cityscape since the 1970s.
I think they just did it to attract attention. They won't have any effect
on HS2 construction, but they figured that they'd attract more journalists
and spectators to a site in central London than to a treehouse deep in the
countryside.
Yes, you're probably right.
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