Discussion:
Crossrail in trouble - again!
(too old to reply)
Basil Jet
2019-04-03 14:11:29 UTC
Permalink
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
"None of the stations are yet finished"

Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one of
them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
--
Basil Jet - Current favourite song...
Spratleys Japs - Hands (Marc Riley session)

Graeme Wall
2019-04-03 14:19:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
"None of the stations are yet finished"
Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one of
them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
I was rather confused by the statement that some sections were now
operating, I assume they were referring to testing, though Paddington -
Reading wasn't included
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Recliner
2019-04-03 14:26:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Basil Jet
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
"None of the stations are yet finished"
Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one of
them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
I was rather confused by the statement that some sections were now
operating, I assume they were referring to testing, though Paddington -
Reading wasn't included
I took it to mean the existing surface sections operated by TfL Rail
labelled 345s.
Graeme Wall
2019-04-03 14:45:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Basil Jet
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
"None of the stations are yet finished"
Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one of
them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
I was rather confused by the statement that some sections were now
operating, I assume they were referring to testing, though Paddington -
Reading wasn't included
I took it to mean the existing surface sections operated by TfL Rail
labelled 345s.
Are the 345s operating services out of Paddington? The map appears to
show services between there and Slough.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Recliner
2019-04-03 15:19:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Basil Jet
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
"None of the stations are yet finished"
Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one of
them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
I was rather confused by the statement that some sections were now
operating, I assume they were referring to testing, though Paddington -
Reading wasn't included
I took it to mean the existing surface sections operated by TfL Rail
labelled 345s.
Are the 345s operating services out of Paddington?
Yes, they have been for some time.
Post by Graeme Wall
The map appears to show services between there and Slough.
Not yet as far as Slough.
Graeme Wall
2019-04-03 15:45:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Basil Jet
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
"None of the stations are yet finished"
Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one of
them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
I was rather confused by the statement that some sections were now
operating, I assume they were referring to testing, though Paddington -
Reading wasn't included
I took it to mean the existing surface sections operated by TfL Rail
labelled 345s.
Are the 345s operating services out of Paddington?
Yes, they have been for some time.
Post by Graeme Wall
The map appears to show services between there and Slough.
Not yet as far as Slough.
Misread the map, it's Hayes and Harlington, before the Heathrow branch
diverges.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2019-04-03 15:08:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Basil Jet
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
"None of the stations are yet finished"
Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one
of them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
I was rather confused by the statement that some sections were now
operating, I assume they were referring to testing, though Paddington -
Reading wasn't included
Shenfield to Liverpool St?
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2019-04-03 15:44:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
 "None of the stations are yet finished"
 Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one
of  them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
I was rather confused by the statement that some sections were now
operating, I assume they were referring to testing, though Paddington
- Reading wasn't included
Shenfield to Liverpool St?
That's on the map, yes.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-04-05 12:25:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Basil Jet
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
"None of the stations are yet finished"
Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one of
them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
I was rather confused by the statement that some sections were now
operating, I assume they were referring to testing, though Paddington -
Reading wasn't included
Liverpool St ("upstairs") - Shenfield and Paddington ("upstairs") - Hayes
are operated by TfL Rail using 345s; Padd-Heathrow stopper is operated by
TfL Rail using 360s.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Recliner
2019-04-03 14:24:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
"None of the stations are yet finished"
Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one of
them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
Yes. I suspect that once the opening was delayed, they cut back on the
overtime working that would have been required for even the most complete
stations to meet the December 2018 target date. It's cheaper to complete
the stations at a more relaxed pace.
Someone Somewhere
2019-04-03 21:51:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
"None of the stations are yet finished"
Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one of
them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
Yes. I suspect that once the opening was delayed, they cut back on the
overtime working that would have been required for even the most complete
stations to meet the December 2018 target date. It's cheaper to complete
the stations at a more relaxed pace.
How much overtime weere they planning to work? The delay was finally
admitted 4 months before opening, which was 5 months ago - even if
everyone was working double shifts they should have finished by now...
Recliner
2019-04-03 22:08:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
"None of the stations are yet finished"
Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one of
them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
Yes. I suspect that once the opening was delayed, they cut back on the
overtime working that would have been required for even the most complete
stations to meet the December 2018 target date. It's cheaper to complete
the stations at a more relaxed pace.
How much overtime weere they planning to work? The delay was finally
admitted 4 months before opening, which was 5 months ago - even if
everyone was working double shifts they should have finished by now...
I believe a few of the new stations could have been just about ready to
open, but not necessarily complete, by the December target date; at least a
couple were many months behind, and wouldn't have been able to open at all
by then. Now, they can take their time to finish even the near-complete
stations.

It's obviously extraordinary that the widespread delays to the stations,
train signalling and testing weren't noticed (or at least reported) by the
management until so close to the planned opening date. Was it a deliberate
cover-up, or just incompetence at the senior management and political
levels (or both)?
Someone Somewhere
2019-04-04 07:04:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
"None of the stations are yet finished"
Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one of
them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
Yes. I suspect that once the opening was delayed, they cut back on the
overtime working that would have been required for even the most complete
stations to meet the December 2018 target date. It's cheaper to complete
the stations at a more relaxed pace.
How much overtime weere they planning to work? The delay was finally
admitted 4 months before opening, which was 5 months ago - even if
everyone was working double shifts they should have finished by now...
I believe a few of the new stations could have been just about ready to
open, but not necessarily complete, by the December target date; at least a
couple were many months behind, and wouldn't have been able to open at all
by then. Now, they can take their time to finish even the near-complete
stations.
It's obviously extraordinary that the widespread delays to the stations,
train signalling and testing weren't noticed (or at least reported) by the
management until so close to the planned opening date. Was it a deliberate
cover-up, or just incompetence at the senior management and political
levels (or both)?
I understand removing overtime, but surely they could have finished one
or more of the stations by now? If so, then any associated workforce
may be able to be used on other parts of the project to not slow that
down any further.
Recliner
2019-04-04 08:03:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Recliner
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
"None of the stations are yet finished"
Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one of
them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
Yes. I suspect that once the opening was delayed, they cut back on the
overtime working that would have been required for even the most complete
stations to meet the December 2018 target date. It's cheaper to complete
the stations at a more relaxed pace.
How much overtime weere they planning to work? The delay was finally
admitted 4 months before opening, which was 5 months ago - even if
everyone was working double shifts they should have finished by now...
I believe a few of the new stations could have been just about ready to
open, but not necessarily complete, by the December target date; at least a
couple were many months behind, and wouldn't have been able to open at all
by then. Now, they can take their time to finish even the near-complete
stations.
It's obviously extraordinary that the widespread delays to the stations,
train signalling and testing weren't noticed (or at least reported) by the
management until so close to the planned opening date. Was it a deliberate
cover-up, or just incompetence at the senior management and political
levels (or both)?
I understand removing overtime, but surely they could have finished one
or more of the stations by now? If so, then any associated workforce
may be able to be used on other parts of the project to not slow that
down any further.
There's no point rushing to finish a station, then moth-balling it for a
year or so. What they did have to finish quickly was any trackside work,
such as installing the PEDs, so that it didn't get in the way of test
running.

In any case, the stations will be at different levels of completion. Some
may still be having wiring, lifts and escalators installed, while the more
complete ones are probably just getting the final decorative finishing.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-04-05 12:25:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Recliner
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
"None of the stations are yet finished"
Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one of
them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
Yes. I suspect that once the opening was delayed, they cut back on the
overtime working that would have been required for even the most complete
stations to meet the December 2018 target date. It's cheaper to complete
the stations at a more relaxed pace.
How much overtime weere they planning to work? The delay was finally
admitted 4 months before opening, which was 5 months ago - even if
everyone was working double shifts they should have finished by now...
I believe a few of the new stations could have been just about ready to
open, but not necessarily complete, by the December target date; at least a
couple were many months behind, and wouldn't have been able to open at all
by then. Now, they can take their time to finish even the near-complete
stations.
It's obviously extraordinary that the widespread delays to the stations,
train signalling and testing weren't noticed (or at least reported) by the
management until so close to the planned opening date. Was it a deliberate
cover-up, or just incompetence at the senior management and political
levels (or both)?
I understand removing overtime, but surely they could have finished one
or more of the stations by now? If so, then any associated workforce
may be able to be used on other parts of the project to not slow that
down any further.
There's no point rushing to finish a station, then moth-balling it for a
year or so. What they did have to finish quickly was any trackside work,
such as installing the PEDs, so that it didn't get in the way of test
running.
In any case, the stations will be at different levels of completion. Some
may still be having wiring, lifts and escalators installed, while the more
complete ones are probably just getting the final decorative finishing.
...which are all likely to involve different teams of people. Getting the
lifts finished earlier at one station doesn’t mean you’ll be able to send
those same workers to complete the tiling at another station.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Someone Somewhere
2019-04-05 16:46:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Recliner
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Recliner
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
"None of the stations are yet finished"
Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one of
them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
Yes. I suspect that once the opening was delayed, they cut back on the
overtime working that would have been required for even the most complete
stations to meet the December 2018 target date. It's cheaper to complete
the stations at a more relaxed pace.
How much overtime weere they planning to work? The delay was finally
admitted 4 months before opening, which was 5 months ago - even if
everyone was working double shifts they should have finished by now...
I believe a few of the new stations could have been just about ready to
open, but not necessarily complete, by the December target date; at least a
couple were many months behind, and wouldn't have been able to open at all
by then. Now, they can take their time to finish even the near-complete
stations.
It's obviously extraordinary that the widespread delays to the stations,
train signalling and testing weren't noticed (or at least reported) by the
management until so close to the planned opening date. Was it a deliberate
cover-up, or just incompetence at the senior management and political
levels (or both)?
I understand removing overtime, but surely they could have finished one
or more of the stations by now? If so, then any associated workforce
may be able to be used on other parts of the project to not slow that
down any further.
There's no point rushing to finish a station, then moth-balling it for a
year or so. What they did have to finish quickly was any trackside work,
such as installing the PEDs, so that it didn't get in the way of test
running.
In any case, the stations will be at different levels of completion. Some
may still be having wiring, lifts and escalators installed, while the more
complete ones are probably just getting the final decorative finishing.
...which are all likely to involve different teams of people. Getting the
lifts finished earlier at one station doesn’t mean you’ll be able to send
those same workers to complete the tiling at another station.
No but the lift people may well be the same lift people at different
stations, ditto tilers and so on.

Also, if you complete and mothball a station at least you know it's
finished and you're not predicating your plan on the continued
availability of different things or certain trades which may well have
gone out of stock, changed or become unavailable before you get around
to finishing the station.

Also, what does it realistically cost to mothball a station as opposed
to going slow on the construction?
Recliner
2019-04-05 21:51:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Recliner
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Recliner
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
"None of the stations are yet finished"
Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one of
them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
Yes. I suspect that once the opening was delayed, they cut back on the
overtime working that would have been required for even the most complete
stations to meet the December 2018 target date. It's cheaper to complete
the stations at a more relaxed pace.
How much overtime weere they planning to work? The delay was finally
admitted 4 months before opening, which was 5 months ago - even if
everyone was working double shifts they should have finished by now...
I believe a few of the new stations could have been just about ready to
open, but not necessarily complete, by the December target date; at least a
couple were many months behind, and wouldn't have been able to open at all
by then. Now, they can take their time to finish even the near-complete
stations.
It's obviously extraordinary that the widespread delays to the stations,
train signalling and testing weren't noticed (or at least reported) by the
management until so close to the planned opening date. Was it a deliberate
cover-up, or just incompetence at the senior management and political
levels (or both)?
I understand removing overtime, but surely they could have finished one
or more of the stations by now? If so, then any associated workforce
may be able to be used on other parts of the project to not slow that
down any further.
There's no point rushing to finish a station, then moth-balling it for a
year or so. What they did have to finish quickly was any trackside work,
such as installing the PEDs, so that it didn't get in the way of test
running.
In any case, the stations will be at different levels of completion. Some
may still be having wiring, lifts and escalators installed, while the more
complete ones are probably just getting the final decorative finishing.
...which are all likely to involve different teams of people. Getting the
lifts finished earlier at one station doesn’t mean you’ll be able to send
those same workers to complete the tiling at another station.
No but the lift people may well be the same lift people at different
stations, ditto tilers and so on.
They probably all work for subcontractors or are self-employed anyway.
Post by Someone Somewhere
Also, if you complete and mothball a station at least you know it's
finished and you're not predicating your plan on the continued
availability of different things or certain trades which may well have
gone out of stock, changed or become unavailable before you get around
to finishing the station.
We're not talking about a delay of years, just taking a few weeks or months
longer to complete the stations that were almost ready.
Post by Someone Somewhere
Also, what does it realistically cost to mothball a station as opposed
to going slow on the construction?
It's not so much a case of deliberately going slow, but saving money by no
longer working to a tight deadline.

Roland Perry
2019-04-04 13:21:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Someone Somewhere
I understand removing overtime, but surely they could have finished one
or more of the stations by now? If so, then any associated workforce
may be able to be used on other parts of the project to not slow that
down any further.
While they all might look identical in their orange outfits, in practice
they have many different skills and are employed by many different
contractors. Some skills/employments may be transferable, but lots
aren't.
--
Roland Perry
Someone Somewhere
2019-04-04 14:52:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Someone Somewhere
I understand removing overtime, but surely they could have finished
one or more of the stations by now?  If so, then any associated
workforce may be able to be used on other parts of the project to not
slow that down any further.
While they all might look identical in their orange outfits, in practice
they have many different skills and are employed by many different
contractors. Some skills/employments may be transferable, but lots aren't.
True - but with a station you have the people who do lifts, who do
tiles, who do other decoration, who install ticket barriers, the
sparkies, etc etc, but each station at various times will need each of
the sets...
Roland Perry
2019-04-05 09:51:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Someone Somewhere
I understand removing overtime, but surely they could have finished
one or more of the stations by now?  If so, then any associated
workforce may be able to be used on other parts of the project to not
slow that down any further.
While they all might look identical in their orange outfits, in
practice they have many different skills and are employed by many
different contractors. Some skills/employments may be transferable,
but lots aren't.
True - but with a station you have the people who do lifts, who do
tiles, who do other decoration, who install ticket barriers, the
sparkies, etc etc, but each station at various times will need each of
the sets...
That doesn't help much if the stations are being fitted out by different
contracting firms.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-04-05 09:59:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Someone Somewhere
I understand removing overtime, but surely they could have finished
one or more of the stations by now?  If so, then any associated
workforce may be able to be used on other parts of the project to not
slow that down any further.
While they all might look identical in their orange outfits, in
practice they have many different skills and are employed by many
different contractors. Some skills/employments may be transferable,
but lots aren't.
True - but with a station you have the people who do lifts, who do
tiles, who do other decoration, who install ticket barriers, the
sparkies, etc etc, but each station at various times will need each of
the sets...
That doesn't help much if the stations are being fitted out by different
contracting firms.
The actual workers are unlikely to be directly employed by the main
contractors.
Roland Perry
2019-04-04 07:02:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
It's obviously extraordinary that the widespread delays to the stations,
train signalling and testing weren't noticed (or at least reported) by the
management until so close to the planned opening date. Was it a deliberate
cover-up, or just incompetence at the senior management and political
levels (or both)?
Many of the above I suspect. It seems to have resulted in Sir Terry
Morgan losing his new job at HS2 as well as the old one at Crossrail.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2019-04-04 06:05:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
"None of the stations are yet finished"
Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one of
them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
Yes. I suspect that once the opening was delayed, they cut back on the
overtime working that would have been required for even the most complete
stations to meet the December 2018 target date. It's cheaper to complete
the stations at a more relaxed pace.
How much overtime weere they planning to work? The delay was finally
admitted 4 months before opening, which was 5 months ago
I rather suspect the myth of that timescale has been exploded by the new
boss.
Post by Someone Somewhere
- even if everyone was working double shifts they should have finished
by now...
--
Roland Perry
Mike Bristow
2019-04-04 09:49:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
"None of the stations are yet finished"
Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one of
them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
Yes. I suspect that once the opening was delayed, they cut back on the
overtime working that would have been required for even the most complete
stations to meet the December 2018 target date.
A chap I know can still work 7 days a week if he wants, so there's
no shortage of overtime.
--
Mike Bristow ***@urgle.com
Recliner
2019-04-04 10:01:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Bristow
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
"None of the stations are yet finished"
Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one of
them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
Yes. I suspect that once the opening was delayed, they cut back on the
overtime working that would have been required for even the most complete
stations to meet the December 2018 target date.
A chap I know can still work 7 days a week if he wants, so there's
no shortage of overtime.
Is that on stations that are near-complete, or on the ones that were far
behind schedule?
Mike Bristow
2019-04-04 10:07:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Mike Bristow
A chap I know can still work 7 days a week if he wants, so there's
no shortage of overtime.
Is that on stations that are near-complete, or on the ones that were far
behind schedule?
Dunno, I'm afraid: we usually talk about other things. I'll ask next
time I see him (if I remember).
--
Mike Bristow ***@urgle.com
Recliner
2019-04-04 10:18:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Bristow
Post by Recliner
Post by Mike Bristow
A chap I know can still work 7 days a week if he wants, so there's
no shortage of overtime.
Is that on stations that are near-complete, or on the ones that were far
behind schedule?
Dunno, I'm afraid: we usually talk about other things. I'll ask next
time I see him (if I remember).
I think, by definition, some stations still have lots more work to do,
which is why the opening has been delayed so much. There will be plenty of
pressure to get them finished asap, as their completion will determine the
earliest opening date. The same will be true of the train/signalling
testing. This delayed opening is losing TfL a lot of revenue, after all.

But some other stations are almost complete, and there's little point in
spending more than necessary to finish them off, given that they'll then be
moth-balled for a year or more anyway.
Roland Perry
2019-04-04 13:35:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
I think, by definition, some stations still have lots more work to do,
which is why the opening has been delayed so much.
I'm far from convinced the stations themselves are on the critical path.
Signalling (installation/testing) is likely to be the main hold up.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2019-04-03 15:06:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367>
"None of the stations are yet finished"
Surprising word order aside, that is staggering. How could every one of
them be running late? Weren't they built by different contractors?
Aren't the ones in Essex finished - Shenfield for example?
--
Roland Perry
Loading...