Discussion:
What news on the Goblin 710s?
(too old to reply)
Recliner
2019-01-12 10:40:35 UTC
Permalink
I gather that the Goblin 710s still aren't in service, despite the fact
that the last six 172s were due to depart by the end of 2018. I now read
that their lease has had to be extended by a further two months.

Unlike the Crossrail Aventras, the Goblin 710s don't have the complications
of having to handle multiple signalling systems, so presumably the problems
lie in the bog standard (though they're sans bogs) Aventra software
platform (the 345s use an older, Electrostar derived platform). These
problems will afflict any other Aventra deployments.

Does anyone know any more?
b***@q0aqv8yzpyr1hb48t.gov
2019-01-12 13:28:26 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 10:40:35 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
I gather that the Goblin 710s still aren't in service, despite the fact
that the last six 172s were due to depart by the end of 2018. I now read
that their lease has had to be extended by a further two months.
There's a shock. About 6 months back I remember being shot down for daring to
suggest they should have just bought some more 378s. But no, I was apparently
talking rubbish because the 710s would be along real-soon-now and would be
fantastic etc etc. Hey ho. All the self styled experts and TfL apologists on
here were talking out of their rear ends as per normal.
Post by Recliner
Unlike the Crossrail Aventras, the Goblin 710s don't have the complications
of having to handle multiple signalling systems, so presumably the problems
lie in the bog standard (though they're sans bogs) Aventra software
platform (the 345s use an older, Electrostar derived platform). These
problems will afflict any other Aventra deployments.
I read in the sunday times that the 345s are also having issues with the
signalling in the main crossrail tunnels.
Robin9
2019-01-13 12:05:27 UTC
Permalink
I've given up worrying when Goblin will finally go electric.
It's pretty obvious now that TfL backed the wrong horse
when they rejected the advice of the Goblin pressure group
to use cast-off EMUs until the new stock was ready. I'm not
criticising TfL for that decision which I understand, but we'd
all be better off they had decided differently.

Increasingly it looks as if we'll have a bus service only fairly soon


--
Robin9
Recliner
2019-01-13 15:08:16 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 12:05:27 +0000, Robin9
Post by Robin9
I've given up worrying when Goblin will finally go electric.
It's pretty obvious now that TfL backed the wrong horse
when they rejected the advice of the Goblin pressure group
to use cast-off EMUs until the new stock was ready. I'm not
criticising TfL for that decision which I understand, but we'd
all be better off they had decided differently.
Increasingly it looks as if we'll have a bus service only fairly soon.
Please could you remind us why they couldn't use a few of the retiring
4-car LO 315s? Yes, I know drivers would need training, and the
trains are old and tatty, but they seemed to work OK before being
stood down in favour of unreliable 345s.
Robin9
2019-01-14 09:58:59 UTC
Permalink
Well, that was it. TfL judged that the arrival of the 710s was
imminent and certain and that it was pointless training drivers
on cast-off units for only a few months benefit. Essentially
TfL gambled the store on the 710s arriving on schedule.

The Goblin users group's case was mainly that the two car 172s
were so overcrowded that using old four car EMUs would provide
respite until the 710s arrived. Their second point was that running
DMUs under the wire for several months was pretty silly when
spare EMUs had just become available


--
Robin9
Recliner
2019-01-14 16:26:55 UTC
Permalink
Robin9 <***@londonbanter.co.uk> wrote:
Well, that was it. TfL judged that the arrival of the 710s was
Post by Robin9
imminent and certain and that it was pointless training drivers
on cast-off units for only a few months benefit. Essentially
TfL gambled the store on the 710s arriving on schedule.
The Goblin users group's case was mainly that the two car 172s
were so overcrowded that using old four car EMUs would provide
respite until the 710s arrived. Their second point was that running
DMUs under the wire for several months was pretty silly when
spare EMUs had just become available.
There's a brief piece in today's Rail magazine about the issue. Apparently
they'll be testing a 4-car 378 on the line as a short term substitute, as
the 172s continue to leave the line. I guess Goblin drivers are all
qualified to drive 378s, so if they have enough spare units, it'll do the
trick.

The problem with the 410s is apparently with the traffic management system.
b***@9pxvhj.com
2019-01-15 14:48:33 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 16:26:55 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Robin9
Well, that was it. TfL judged that the arrival of the 710s was
Post by Robin9
imminent and certain and that it was pointless training drivers
on cast-off units for only a few months benefit. Essentially
TfL gambled the store on the 710s arriving on schedule.
The Goblin users group's case was mainly that the two car 172s
were so overcrowded that using old four car EMUs would provide
respite until the 710s arrived. Their second point was that running
DMUs under the wire for several months was pretty silly when
spare EMUs had just become available.
There's a brief piece in today's Rail magazine about the issue. Apparently
they'll be testing a 4-car 378 on the line as a short term substitute, as
Somoene at TfL finally got a clue then.
Post by Robin9
the 172s continue to leave the line. I guess Goblin drivers are all
qualified to drive 378s, so if they have enough spare units, it'll do the
trick.
If only they'd ordered a few more 378s when they had the chance. Oh wait,
I was told that was a stupid idea by various people and I believe you were one
of them. Humble Pie for tea perhaps?
Theo
2019-01-15 22:29:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@9pxvhj.com
If only they'd ordered a few more 378s when they had the chance. Oh wait,
I was told that was a stupid idea by various people and I believe you were one
of them. Humble Pie for tea perhaps?
They could have tried to order some Model T Fords, but those are no longer
on offer. Stockpiling them for a decade just in case is not practical.
You can only buy what's for sale at the time you want to buy something.

Theo
Robin9
2019-01-16 08:35:05 UTC
Permalink
http://tinyurl.com/y9lhgxh


--
Robin9
b***@f0hb9nbnqy12cliqqyc.gov.uk
2019-01-16 10:18:52 UTC
Permalink
On 15 Jan 2019 22:29:33 +0000 (GMT)
Post by Theo
Post by b***@9pxvhj.com
If only they'd ordered a few more 378s when they had the chance. Oh wait,
I was told that was a stupid idea by various people and I believe you were
one
Post by b***@9pxvhj.com
of them. Humble Pie for tea perhaps?
They could have tried to order some Model T Fords, but those are no longer
on offer. Stockpiling them for a decade just in case is not practical.
You can only buy what's for sale at the time you want to buy something.
False analogy. Unlike cars trains are build to order. It would have been
fairly simple for Bombadier to build some more 378s given there was only a 4
year gap between the last 378 being built and goblin electrication being
approved and the fact that the LU S stock is the same platform and was being
built up until 2017!

But no, that would have been too simple for TfL. Why have a completely
interoperable fleet that runs out the box when you can spend more on something
thats a clusterfuck and will require specially trained drivers and technicians.
Roland Perry
2019-01-16 11:34:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@f0hb9nbnqy12cliqqyc.gov.uk
Unlike cars trains are build to order. It would have been
fairly simple for Bombadier to build some more 378s
Not if you've thrown away the jigs, and/or there are compliance issues
with a new build of an old design.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-01-16 12:34:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@f0hb9nbnqy12cliqqyc.gov.uk
Unlike cars trains are build to order. It would have been
fairly simple for Bombadier to build some more 378s
Not if you've thrown away the jigs, and/or there are compliance issues
with a new build of an old design.
And, of course, the 378s do not share a platform with the S stock. Neil is
wrong, as usual.
b***@enojlzq76zn.edu
2019-01-17 11:03:59 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 12:34:26 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@f0hb9nbnqy12cliqqyc.gov.uk
Unlike cars trains are build to order. It would have been
fairly simple for Bombadier to build some more 378s
Not if you've thrown away the jigs, and/or there are compliance issues
with a new build of an old design.
And, of course, the 378s do not share a platform with the S stock. Neil is
wrong, as usual.
Same traction and control system which is the important part. The bodyshells
are all built to order anyway.

I notice you never point our when you're wrong which is pretty often.
Still think ordering the 710s was a great idea?
Recliner
2019-01-17 14:11:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@enojlzq76zn.edu
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 12:34:26 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@f0hb9nbnqy12cliqqyc.gov.uk
Unlike cars trains are build to order. It would have been
fairly simple for Bombadier to build some more 378s
Not if you've thrown away the jigs, and/or there are compliance issues
with a new build of an old design.
And, of course, the 378s do not share a platform with the S stock. Neil is
wrong, as usual.
Same traction and control system which is the important part.
Really?
Post by b***@enojlzq76zn.edu
The bodyshells
are all built to order anyway.
Using jigs.
Post by b***@enojlzq76zn.edu
I notice you never point our when you're wrong which is pretty often.
Still think ordering the 710s was a great idea?
Yes, of course.
b***@ppsntz0dl42m4agqhap.org
2019-01-19 13:21:48 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 14:11:33 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@enojlzq76zn.edu
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 12:34:26 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@f0hb9nbnqy12cliqqyc.gov.uk
Unlike cars trains are build to order. It would have been
fairly simple for Bombadier to build some more 378s
Not if you've thrown away the jigs, and/or there are compliance issues
with a new build of an old design.
And, of course, the 378s do not share a platform with the S stock. Neil is
wrong, as usual.
Same traction and control system which is the important part.
Really?
MITRAC.
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@enojlzq76zn.edu
The bodyshells
are all built to order anyway.
Using jigs.
Jigs arn't rocket science and reassembling some for an older design would be a
lot less expensive than the mess we have now.
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@enojlzq76zn.edu
I notice you never point our when you're wrong which is pretty often.
Still think ordering the 710s was a great idea?
Yes, of course.
Why not go ask some goblin passengers and see if they agree with you.
Robin9
2019-01-20 10:22:07 UTC
Permalink
The issue is not if it was right to order the 710s. It's whether
TfL should have allowed for a delay preventing their being
in use by December, 2019


--
Robin9
b***@yowyry8310lt5bg.gov.uk
2019-01-20 16:53:59 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 20 Jan 2019 10:22:07 +0000
Post by Robin9
The issue is not if it was right to order the 710s. It's whether
TfL should have allowed for a delay preventing their being
in use by December, 2019.
Well they've never been blessed with foresight and they've
painted themselves into a tight corner. If they can't find
some spare 378s then it looks like it'll be a bustitute
until the 710s turn up - whenever that will be. If the delays
are as stated purely down to software issues then I'd venture
these issues are pretty intractable since they should have had an
off the shelf solution ready to go, its not exactly bleeding edge
tech.
Recliner
2019-01-20 17:08:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@yowyry8310lt5bg.gov.uk
On Sun, 20 Jan 2019 10:22:07 +0000
Post by Robin9
The issue is not if it was right to order the 710s. It's whether
TfL should have allowed for a delay preventing their being
in use by December, 2019.
Well they've never been blessed with foresight and they've
painted themselves into a tight corner. If they can't find
some spare 378s then it looks like it'll be a bustitute
until the 710s turn up - whenever that will be. If the delays
are as stated purely down to software issues then I'd venture
these issues are pretty intractable since they should have had an
off the shelf solution ready to go, its not exactly bleeding edge
tech.
And which software, exactly, have you reviewed and characterised as 'not
exactly bleeding edge'?
b***@hpwcwl6x6zh9dc.gov.uk
2019-01-21 12:12:56 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 20 Jan 2019 17:08:57 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@yowyry8310lt5bg.gov.uk
On Sun, 20 Jan 2019 10:22:07 +0000
Post by Robin9
The issue is not if it was right to order the 710s. It's whether
TfL should have allowed for a delay preventing their being
in use by December, 2019.
Well they've never been blessed with foresight and they've
painted themselves into a tight corner. If they can't find
some spare 378s then it looks like it'll be a bustitute
until the 710s turn up - whenever that will be. If the delays
are as stated purely down to software issues then I'd venture
these issues are pretty intractable since they should have had an
off the shelf solution ready to go, its not exactly bleeding edge
tech.
And which software, exactly, have you reviewed and characterised as 'not
exactly bleeding edge'?
Train software. Its not stealth radar or a spacecraft control system they're
trying to get working. It moves in 1 dimension on a track and moving block
signalling and IGBT train control systems are a solved problem and should be
off the shelf packages from their suppliers. If Bombadier have been dumb enough
to write everything from scratch then more fool them and someone should get
their P45.

Theo
2019-01-14 18:07:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Please could you remind us why they couldn't use a few of the retiring
4-car LO 315s? Yes, I know drivers would need training, and the
trains are old and tatty, but they seemed to work OK before being
stood down in favour of unreliable 345s.
Wasn't it that there's no DOO equipment suitable for the 315s, it would be
costly and time consuming to fit it, and the alternative would be recruiting
and training up some guards on a short term basis, even more impractical?

Theo
Recliner
2019-01-14 21:53:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by Recliner
Please could you remind us why they couldn't use a few of the retiring
4-car LO 315s? Yes, I know drivers would need training, and the
trains are old and tatty, but they seemed to work OK before being
stood down in favour of unreliable 345s.
Wasn't it that there's no DOO equipment suitable for the 315s, it would be
costly and time consuming to fit it, and the alternative would be recruiting
and training up some guards on a short term basis, even more impractical?
Yes, that could be it, hence the plan to test a 4-car 378 on the route. LO
obviously has lots of them, but I don't know how many can be spared for the
Goblin, even if only for 2-3 months.

I gather seven of the 710 sets have been delivered to Willesden, with more
in storage elsewhere. So, once the TMS software is debugged, it may not
take long to get the fleet into service.
Theo
2019-01-14 22:38:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Yes, that could be it, hence the plan to test a 4-car 378 on the route. LO
obviously has lots of them, but I don't know how many can be spared for the
Goblin, even if only for 2-3 months.
Is there anywhere else that does have suitable DOO equipment, where other
stock could be used temporarily? The NLL presumably had it when operated
with 313s - but that would need dual-voltage replacement stock, for instance
some stored 319s.

Theo
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