Discussion:
Tim Dunn's "Secrets of the London Underground" - Yesterday channel, now from July 19
(too old to reply)
Recliner
2021-07-19 21:41:31 UTC
Permalink
According to the 6-page article in the present RAIL,
Episode 1 is on Yesterday (Freeview 26) at 8pm-9pm on July 13
Five more hour-long episodes follow at 1 week intervals
That's odd, my Humax thinks that Bangers And Cash on then.
Digiguide and the online and printed versions of Radio Times all say that
there's Bangers and Cash, followed by two episodes of Secrets of the
[Brooklands] Transport Museum.
I think the Secrets of the London Underground series must have been
postponed from its original schedule of first episode on 13 July. The entry
on UKTV's [Yesterday's] web site
https://corporate.uktv.co.uk/news/article/uktv-secrets-of-the-london-underground-yesterday/
doesn't give a date, just "later in 2021".
https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/hidden-london/secrets-london-underground says
"this July". https://www.brownbob.com/secrets-of-the-london-underground/
says "later this year". I wonder what unforeseen circumstance led to them
scheduling it for 13 July and then postponing it.
Keeping watching this space. I'll post to the thread if I get any further
info.
They've tweeted the new date: it will begin on Monday 19th July at 8pm, on
Yesterday.
Thanks, and 10/10 for changing the subject line!
Well, after all the reminders, I hope everyone interested watched or
recorded it. I enjoyed it, and learned and saw quite a bit I'd not seen
before. They got excellent access to hidden areas of working stations.

Tim and Siddy work well together (she features in a lot of LTM YouTube
videos, but I think we'll be seeing more of her on TV). You don't find many
glamorous Icelandic blonde actress experts on the dusty history of the
London Underground! Even her (stage) name is based on an LU station.
NY
2021-07-20 10:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Tim and Siddy work well together (she features in a lot of LTM YouTube
videos, but I think we'll be seeing more of her on TV). You don't find many
glamorous Icelandic blonde actress experts on the dusty history of the
London Underground! Even her (stage) name is based on an LU station.
I've not watched the programme yet but I've skimmed through it briefly to
get a general flavour.

It's hard to believe that Siddy is Icelandic, because her voice sounds like
posh Home Counties English. I presumed that her stage name was her married
name and that she was married to a British man. I imagine that she will be
the go-to presenter for anything relating to London Transport, because she
is a natural and a great source of information. I'm surprised that we
haven't seen more of Vicki Pipe (All the Stations) on mainstream TV as a
London Transport / railway / castles (!) expert.
Recliner
2021-07-20 10:45:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Tim and Siddy work well together (she features in a lot of LTM YouTube
videos, but I think we'll be seeing more of her on TV). You don't find many
glamorous Icelandic blonde actress experts on the dusty history of the
London Underground! Even her (stage) name is based on an LU station.
I've not watched the programme yet but I've skimmed through it briefly to
get a general flavour.
It's hard to believe that Siddy is Icelandic, because her voice sounds like
posh Home Counties English. I presumed that her stage name was her married
name and that she was married to a British man.
Yes, I'd assumed the same. If you listen very carefully, you can
occasionally pick up a foreign sounding consonant.

When I visited Iceland, our guide spoke such perfect, idiomatic English,
and knew so much about British culture that I asked him how long he'd lived
in England. He astonished me by saying he'd only visited once, for a
weekend. But I think they got BBC TV and US TV (from the US airbase) and
learned their English that way.
Post by NY
I imagine that she will be
the go-to presenter for anything relating to London Transport, because she
is a natural and a great source of information.
Yes, I think so.
Post by NY
I'm surprised that we
haven't seen more of Vicki Pipe (All the Stations) on mainstream TV as a
London Transport / railway / castles (!) expert.
Yes, she seems to have almost disappeared from Geoff's videos. Maybe she
was getting too much of the wrong sort of attention on social media? Even
her blog has been silent for almost a year:
<https://www.vickipipe.co.uk/blog>

I suppose, given her age (38) and marriage to Geoff in 2018, it's possible
she might be on maternity leave.
Sam Wilson
2021-07-20 11:05:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Tim and Siddy work well together (she features in a lot of LTM YouTube
videos, but I think we'll be seeing more of her on TV). You don't find many
glamorous Icelandic blonde actress experts on the dusty history of the
London Underground! Even her (stage) name is based on an LU station.
I've not watched the programme yet but I've skimmed through it briefly to
get a general flavour.
It's hard to believe that Siddy is Icelandic, because her voice sounds like
posh Home Counties English. I presumed that her stage name was her married
name and that she was married to a British man.
Yes, I'd assumed the same. If you listen very carefully, you can
occasionally pick up a foreign sounding consonant.
When I visited Iceland, our guide spoke such perfect, idiomatic English,
and knew so much about British culture that I asked him how long he'd lived
in England. He astonished me by saying he'd only visited once, for a
weekend. But I think they got BBC TV and US TV (from the US airbase) and
learned their English that way.
Same when we visited Bruges. The young woman on reception spoke with no
trace of an accent so I asked when she’d lived in the UK. Turned out she’d
spent all her life in Belgium.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2021-07-20 13:02:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Recliner
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Tim and Siddy work well together (she features in a lot of LTM YouTube
videos, but I think we'll be seeing more of her on TV). You don't find many
glamorous Icelandic blonde actress experts on the dusty history of the
London Underground! Even her (stage) name is based on an LU station.
I've not watched the programme yet but I've skimmed through it briefly to
get a general flavour.
It's hard to believe that Siddy is Icelandic, because her voice sounds like
posh Home Counties English. I presumed that her stage name was her married
name and that she was married to a British man.
Yes, I'd assumed the same. If you listen very carefully, you can
occasionally pick up a foreign sounding consonant.
When I visited Iceland, our guide spoke such perfect, idiomatic English,
and knew so much about British culture that I asked him how long he'd lived
in England. He astonished me by saying he'd only visited once, for a
weekend. But I think they got BBC TV and US TV (from the US airbase) and
learned their English that way.
Same when we visited Bruges. The young woman on reception spoke with no
trace of an accent so I asked when she’d lived in the UK. Turned out she’d
spent all her life in Belgium.
People in the Netherlands and Belgium, at least in the Flemish-speaking
region, are exposed to English from a very early age. I also understand
that they receive BBC on regular television in those areas.
Roland Perry
2021-07-20 11:32:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Tim and Siddy work well together (she features in a lot of LTM YouTube
videos, but I think we'll be seeing more of her on TV). You don't find many
glamorous Icelandic blonde actress experts on the dusty history of the
London Underground! Even her (stage) name is based on an LU station.
I've not watched the programme yet but I've skimmed through it briefly to
get a general flavour.
It's hard to believe that Siddy is Icelandic, because her voice sounds like
posh Home Counties English. I presumed that her stage name was her married
name and that she was married to a British man.
Yes, I'd assumed the same. If you listen very carefully, you can
occasionally pick up a foreign sounding consonant.
When I visited Iceland, our guide spoke such perfect, idiomatic English,
and knew so much about British culture that I asked him how long he'd lived
in England. He astonished me by saying he'd only visited once, for a
weekend. But I think they got BBC TV and US TV (from the US airbase) and
learned their English that way.
Post by NY
I imagine that she will be
the go-to presenter for anything relating to London Transport, because she
is a natural and a great source of information.
Yes, I think so.
Post by NY
I'm surprised that we
haven't seen more of Vicki Pipe (All the Stations) on mainstream TV as a
London Transport / railway / castles (!) expert.
Yes, she seems to have almost disappeared from Geoff's videos. Maybe she
was getting too much of the wrong sort of attention on social media? Even
<https://www.vickipipe.co.uk/blog>
I suppose, given her age (38) and marriage to Geoff in 2018, it's possible
she might be on maternity leave.
To get gigs on mainstream TV you also need a good agent to sell your
idea to a production company, and a good production company to sell the
programme to the channels. Maybe she doesn't want to go down that route.
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2021-07-20 10:46:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Tim and Siddy work well together (she features in a lot of LTM YouTube
videos, but I think we'll be seeing more of her on TV). You don't find many
glamorous Icelandic blonde actress experts on the dusty history of the
London Underground!  Even her (stage) name is based on an LU station.
I've not watched the programme yet but I've skimmed through it briefly
to get a general flavour.
It's hard to believe that Siddy is Icelandic, because her voice sounds
like posh Home Counties English. I presumed that her stage name was her
married name and that she was married to a British man. I imagine that
she will be the go-to presenter for anything relating to London
Transport, because she is a natural and a great source of information.
I'm surprised that we haven't seen more of Vicki Pipe (All the Stations)
on mainstream TV as a London Transport / railway / castles (!) expert.
When it comes to castles she's up against Lucy Worsley!
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2021-07-20 13:33:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Tim and Siddy work well together (she features in a lot of LTM YouTube
videos, but I think we'll be seeing more of her on TV). You don't find many
glamorous Icelandic blonde actress experts on the dusty history of the
London Underground! Even her (stage) name is based on an LU station.
I've not watched the programme yet but I've skimmed through it briefly to
get a general flavour.
It's hard to believe that Siddy is Icelandic, because her voice sounds like
posh Home Counties English. I presumed that her stage name was her married
name and that she was married to a British man. I imagine that she will be
the go-to presenter for anything relating to London Transport, because she
is a natural and a great source of information. I'm surprised that we
haven't seen more of Vicki Pipe (All the Stations) on mainstream TV as a
London Transport / railway / castles (!) expert.
Why is there an assumption that it's a stage name? According to various web
sites of dubious trustworthiness, her two sisters share the same surname.
Her bio on the LT Museum website (where she's worked for six years) makes
no mention.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Roland Perry
2021-07-20 14:24:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Tim and Siddy work well together (she features in a lot of LTM YouTube
videos, but I think we'll be seeing more of her on TV). You don't find many
glamorous Icelandic blonde actress experts on the dusty history of the
London Underground! Even her (stage) name is based on an LU station.
I've not watched the programme yet but I've skimmed through it briefly to
get a general flavour.
It's hard to believe that Siddy is Icelandic, because her voice sounds like
posh Home Counties English. I presumed that her stage name was her married
name and that she was married to a British man. I imagine that she will be
the go-to presenter for anything relating to London Transport, because she
is a natural and a great source of information. I'm surprised that we
haven't seen more of Vicki Pipe (All the Stations) on mainstream TV as a
London Transport / railway / castles (!) expert.
Why is there an assumption that it's a stage name? According to various web
sites of dubious trustworthiness, her two sisters share the same surname.
Her bio on the LT Museum website (where she's worked for six years) makes
no mention.
I'll lay a side-bet of a case of your best champagne that her name's
Sigurbjorg Alma Ingolfsdottir, born 1st November 1990 (so she'd have
moved to the UK when 19yrs old).

Dad's name Ingólfur Geir Gissurarson (hence her Icelandish surname).

Speaks Icelandic, Danish, English, German and Spanish, and has been an
English teacher (in Iceland).
--
Roland Perry
Tweed
2021-07-20 17:57:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Tim and Siddy work well together (she features in a lot of LTM YouTube
videos, but I think we'll be seeing more of her on TV). You don't find many
glamorous Icelandic blonde actress experts on the dusty history of the
London Underground! Even her (stage) name is based on an LU station.
I've not watched the programme yet but I've skimmed through it briefly to
get a general flavour.
It's hard to believe that Siddy is Icelandic, because her voice sounds like
posh Home Counties English. I presumed that her stage name was her married
name and that she was married to a British man. I imagine that she will be
the go-to presenter for anything relating to London Transport, because she
is a natural and a great source of information. I'm surprised that we
haven't seen more of Vicki Pipe (All the Stations) on mainstream TV as a
London Transport / railway / castles (!) expert.
Why is there an assumption that it's a stage name? According to various web
sites of dubious trustworthiness, her two sisters share the same surname.
Her bio on the LT Museum website (where she's worked for six years) makes
no mention.
I'll lay a side-bet of a case of your best champagne that her name's
Sigurbjorg Alma Ingolfsdottir, born 1st November 1990 (so she'd have
moved to the UK when 19yrs old).
Dad's name Ingólfur Geir Gissurarson (hence her Icelandish surname).
Speaks Icelandic, Danish, English, German and Spanish, and has been an
English teacher (in Iceland).
Clearly everyone has been entranced by her and can’t recall any of the
programme content…..
Recliner
2021-07-20 19:23:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Tim and Siddy work well together (she features in a lot of LTM YouTube
videos, but I think we'll be seeing more of her on TV). You don't find many
glamorous Icelandic blonde actress experts on the dusty history of the
London Underground! Even her (stage) name is based on an LU station.
I've not watched the programme yet but I've skimmed through it briefly to
get a general flavour.
It's hard to believe that Siddy is Icelandic, because her voice sounds like
posh Home Counties English. I presumed that her stage name was her married
name and that she was married to a British man. I imagine that she will be
the go-to presenter for anything relating to London Transport, because she
is a natural and a great source of information. I'm surprised that we
haven't seen more of Vicki Pipe (All the Stations) on mainstream TV as a
London Transport / railway / castles (!) expert.
Why is there an assumption that it's a stage name? According to various web
sites of dubious trustworthiness, her two sisters share the same surname.
Her bio on the LT Museum website (where she's worked for six years) makes
no mention.
I'll lay a side-bet of a case of your best champagne that her name's
Sigurbjorg Alma Ingolfsdottir, born 1st November 1990 (so she'd have
moved to the UK when 19yrs old).
Dad's name Ingólfur Geir Gissurarson (hence her Icelandish surname).
Speaks Icelandic, Danish, English, German and Spanish, and has been an
English teacher (in Iceland).
Clearly everyone has been entranced by her and can’t recall any of the
programme content…..
We didn't want to leak any spoilers...
Tweed
2021-07-20 20:29:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Tim and Siddy work well together (she features in a lot of LTM YouTube
videos, but I think we'll be seeing more of her on TV). You don't find many
glamorous Icelandic blonde actress experts on the dusty history of the
London Underground! Even her (stage) name is based on an LU station.
I've not watched the programme yet but I've skimmed through it briefly to
get a general flavour.
It's hard to believe that Siddy is Icelandic, because her voice sounds like
posh Home Counties English. I presumed that her stage name was her married
name and that she was married to a British man. I imagine that she will be
the go-to presenter for anything relating to London Transport, because she
is a natural and a great source of information. I'm surprised that we
haven't seen more of Vicki Pipe (All the Stations) on mainstream TV as a
London Transport / railway / castles (!) expert.
Why is there an assumption that it's a stage name? According to various web
sites of dubious trustworthiness, her two sisters share the same surname.
Her bio on the LT Museum website (where she's worked for six years) makes
no mention.
I'll lay a side-bet of a case of your best champagne that her name's
Sigurbjorg Alma Ingolfsdottir, born 1st November 1990 (so she'd have
moved to the UK when 19yrs old).
Dad's name Ingólfur Geir Gissurarson (hence her Icelandish surname).
Speaks Icelandic, Danish, English, German and Spanish, and has been an
English teacher (in Iceland).
Clearly everyone has been entranced by her and can’t recall any of the
programme content…..
We didn't want to leak any spoilers...
Ah, I see - very upright
Basil Jet
2021-07-21 10:44:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Clearly everyone has been entranced by her and can’t recall any of the
programme content…..
I found Siddy extremely annoying! Give me Vicki Pipe any day!
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
2006 - Autoshark EP - Electronic Eye
NY
2021-07-21 11:34:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Tweed
Clearly everyone has been entranced by her and can’t recall any of the
programme content…..
I found Siddy extremely annoying! Give me Vicki Pipe any day!
I'm sure a lot of us would like to be given Vicki but I think Geoff might
just have something to say about it ;-)

I've still not watched the Secrets of the Underground episode yet (I must
get a round tuit) so I can't really comment about Siddy, though I did see a
bit of cringe-making over-acting "wow, look at *this*" as she "just saw" an
old sign or advert on a tube wall.

Vicki Pipe would make a good presenter. I've heard her narrating some of her
Castles videos and she has a good voice - calm, authoritative and confident,
without being hesitant, monotonous or putting THE stress ON all THE wrong
words as she reads a script (common failings of amateur Youtube presenters -
and a few seasoned reporters too).
Ian Jackson
2021-07-21 20:22:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Tweed
Clearly everyone has been entranced by her and can’t recall any of the
programme content…..
I found Siddy extremely annoying! Give me Vicki Pipe any day!
I'm sure a lot of us would like to be given Vicki but I think Geoff
might just have something to say about it ;-)
I've still not watched the Secrets of the Underground episode yet (I
must get a round tuit) so I can't really comment about Siddy, though I
did see a bit of cringe-making over-acting "wow, look at *this*" as she
"just saw" an old sign or advert on a tube wall.
Vicki Pipe would make a good presenter. I've heard her narrating some
of her Castles videos and she has a good voice - calm, authoritative
and confident, without being hesitant, monotonous or putting THE stress
ON all THE wrong words as she reads a script (common failings of
amateur Youtube presenters - and a few seasoned reporters too).
Many of LBC Radio's readers of traffic reports do exactly the same.
--
Ian
Arthur Figgis
2021-07-21 18:31:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Tim and Siddy work well together (she features in a lot of LTM YouTube
videos, but I think we'll be seeing more of her on TV). You don't find many
glamorous Icelandic blonde actress experts on the dusty history of the
London Underground! Even her (stage) name is based on an LU station.
I've not watched the programme yet but I've skimmed through it briefly to
get a general flavour.
It's hard to believe that Siddy is Icelandic, because her voice sounds like
posh Home Counties English. I presumed that her stage name was her married
name and that she was married to a British man. I imagine that she will be
the go-to presenter for anything relating to London Transport, because she
is a natural and a great source of information. I'm surprised that we
haven't seen more of Vicki Pipe (All the Stations) on mainstream TV as a
London Transport / railway / castles (!) expert.
Why is there an assumption that it's a stage name? According to various web
sites of dubious trustworthiness, her two sisters share the same surname.
Her bio on the LT Museum website (where she's worked for six years) makes
no mention.
https://www.frettabladid.is/frettir/ur-barnastjornu-i-rithofund-sem-afhjupar-leyndarmal-lunduna/

Sigurbjörg Alma Ingólfsdóttir, einnig þekkt sem Siddy Holloway, skrifar
sína fyrstu bók. Yale University Press gefur út bókina sem heitir Hidden
London: Discovering the Forgotten Underground. Íslendingar þekkja Siddy
frá því að hún lék titilhlutverkið í söngleikja-kvikmyndinni Regínu.

(ooh, I can guess what "skrifar sína fyrstu bók" means, using school German)

also https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1276032/
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Tweed
2021-07-21 18:34:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Tim and Siddy work well together (she features in a lot of LTM YouTube
videos, but I think we'll be seeing more of her on TV). You don't find many
glamorous Icelandic blonde actress experts on the dusty history of the
London Underground! Even her (stage) name is based on an LU station.
I've not watched the programme yet but I've skimmed through it briefly to
get a general flavour.
It's hard to believe that Siddy is Icelandic, because her voice sounds like
posh Home Counties English. I presumed that her stage name was her married
name and that she was married to a British man. I imagine that she will be
the go-to presenter for anything relating to London Transport, because she
is a natural and a great source of information. I'm surprised that we
haven't seen more of Vicki Pipe (All the Stations) on mainstream TV as a
London Transport / railway / castles (!) expert.
Why is there an assumption that it's a stage name? According to various web
sites of dubious trustworthiness, her two sisters share the same surname.
Her bio on the LT Museum website (where she's worked for six years) makes
no mention.
https://www.frettabladid.is/frettir/ur-barnastjornu-i-rithofund-sem-afhjupar-leyndarmal-lunduna/
Sigurbjörg Alma Ingólfsdóttir, einnig þekkt sem Siddy Holloway, skrifar
sína fyrstu bók. Yale University Press gefur út bókina sem heitir Hidden
London: Discovering the Forgotten Underground. Íslendingar þekkja Siddy
frá því að hún lék titilhlutverkið í söngleikja-kvikmyndinni Regínu.
(ooh, I can guess what "skrifar sína fyrstu bók" means, using school German)
also https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1276032/
Google translate:

Sigurbjörg Alma Ingólfsdóttir, also known as Siddy Holloway, is writing her
first book. Yale University Press publishes a book called Hidden London:
Discovering the Forgotten Underground. Icelanders have known Siddy since
she played the title role in the musical film Regina.
NY
2021-07-21 19:30:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Figgis
https://www.frettabladid.is/frettir/ur-barnastjornu-i-rithofund-sem-afhjupar-leyndarmal-lunduna/
Sigurbjörg Alma Ingólfsdóttir, einnig þekkt sem Siddy Holloway, skrifar
sína fyrstu bók. Yale University Press gefur út bókina sem heitir Hidden
London: Discovering the Forgotten Underground. Íslendingar þekkja Siddy
frá því að hún lék titilhlutverkið í söngleikja-kvikmyndinni Regínu.
(ooh, I can guess what "skrifar sína fyrstu bók" means, using school German)
Yes, it's been interesting when we've called at Norwegian, Swedish or Danish
ports when we've been on a cruise, to spot the resemblances to German which
I remember from O level. "Notausgang" on a German coach means "emergency
exit" (it doesn't mean "this is *not* an exit" as I have to keep reminding
myself) and in the other languages it's very similar - I think "not" may be
"nod", and "ausgang" is very similar in No/Se/Dk.

I worked with an Icelandic woman with the unusual (to us) first name of
Oddny. Her English was incredibly good - no trace of an accent - so it was
all the more strange (odd?!) to hear her suddenly revert to Icelandic if her
husband rang her. Icelandic sounds like fluent Martian or Venusian - it has
a very different sound to it compared with German, Danish, Norwegian or
Swedish, though nowhere near as guttural as Finnish which is a very
different non-Germanic language.

When we eventually went on a cruise that called at Hamburg I was actually
able to practice my German, which I hadn't used since O level. This was
difficult because most Germans heard me start to speak and immediately
answered in English - but at least I tried... There was one funny occasion
when we were at a ticket office about to buy two adult tickets - I think it
was for the Miniaturwunderland model railway. I asked for "zwei Erwachsen"
(two adults) just as my wife asked for "two adults" and the poor girl looked
very confused and said (in English) "shall I speak English or German?". I
only came unstuck once, at a crepe stall where the stallholder didn't speak
English. My wife wanted a crepe with lemon juice and sugar - that's
[something]-saft und Zucker, but WTF is the German for lemon? I tried
limone - no, that's French. So I resorted to description "ein gelbe Frucht,
etwa zehn Zentimeter lang" - and her eyes lit up with recognition - "ah,
Zitrone!". Sadly she didn't have any Zitronesaft, so we made do with Nutella
which is the same in any language ;-)

What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke embarrassingly good
English, thanked me for at least *trying* to make myself understood in
German rather than just assuming that they would know English.
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2021-07-21 21:12:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Arthur Figgis
https://www.frettabladid.is/frettir/ur-barnastjornu-i-rithofund-sem-afhjupar-leyndarmal-lunduna/
Sigurbjörg Alma Ingólfsdóttir, einnig þekkt sem Siddy Holloway,
skrifar sína fyrstu bók. Yale University Press gefur út bókina sem
heitir Hidden London: Discovering the Forgotten Underground.
Íslendingar þekkja Siddy frá því að hún lék titilhlutverkið í
söngleikja-kvikmyndinni Regínu.
(ooh, I can guess what "skrifar sína fyrstu bók" means, using school German)
Yes, it's been interesting when we've called at Norwegian, Swedish or
Danish ports when we've been on a cruise, to spot the resemblances to
German which I remember from O level. "Notausgang" on a German coach
means "emergency exit" (it doesn't mean "this is *not* an exit" as I
have to keep reminding myself) and in the other languages it's very
similar - I think "not" may be "nod", and "ausgang" is very similar in
No/Se/Dk.
I worked with an Icelandic woman with the unusual (to us) first name of
Oddny. Her English was incredibly good - no trace of an accent - so it
was all the more strange (odd?!) to hear her suddenly revert to
Icelandic if her husband rang her. Icelandic sounds like fluent Martian
or Venusian - it has a very different sound to it compared with German,
Danish, Norwegian or Swedish, though nowhere near as guttural as Finnish
which is a very different non-Germanic language.
Finnish is in the Finnic subgroup of the Finno-Urgic group, along with
Estonian, Karelian and Veps.
Arthur Figgis
2021-07-21 21:12:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke embarrassingly
good English, thanked me for at least *trying* to make myself understood
in German rather than just assuming that they would know English.
I increasingly wonder whether trying to speak school/phrasebook foreign
is simply a waste of everyone's time, as they are almost certainly going
to speak pretty good English, with no risk of misunderstandings or
getting stuck in a dead end or them putting down their "Handy" to ask an
old person WTF a "Fernsprecher" is.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Jeremy Double
2021-07-21 21:50:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by NY
What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke embarrassingly
good English, thanked me for at least *trying* to make myself understood
in German rather than just assuming that they would know English.
I increasingly wonder whether trying to speak school/phrasebook foreign
is simply a waste of everyone's time, as they are almost certainly going
to speak pretty good English, with no risk of misunderstandings or
getting stuck in a dead end or them putting down their "Handy" to ask an
old person WTF a "Fernsprecher" is.
English is not so widely spoken in parts of former East Germany. For
instance, a few years ago I spent part of a holiday on the island of Rügen
(obrail: the 750mm gauge steam railway there is fun), and in a four star
hotel there were only one or two staff who spoke English. I found few
people who spoke English on Rügen. Fortunately my German was good enough
to get by.

Although another time I was on Rügen and got the train from Binz to Berlin:
the train was a through service to Dresden and Prague, consisting of Czech
Railways stock. The young lady with the catering trolley was Czech, and
couldn’t cope with German, so was communicating in English.
--
Jeremy Double
NY
2021-07-22 09:30:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Double
English is not so widely spoken in parts of former East Germany. For
instance, a few years ago I spent part of a holiday on the island of Rügen
(obrail: the 750mm gauge steam railway there is fun), and in a four star
hotel there were only one or two staff who spoke English. I found few
people who spoke English on Rügen. Fortunately my German was good enough
to get by.
My rusty schoolboy German got me out of an awkward situation many years ago
when I was providing back-room support for the people demonstrating my
company's products at the Hannover Fair. All the hotel rooms are fully
booked by visitors to the Fair, so the demonstrators etc are put up in spare
rooms in local people's houses. The couple I was staying with were fairly
old and their English was about as bad as my German. One morning, the wife
said something in German to me, and then clarified in simpler German
"Tonight another man will be sleeping in your bed".

If I'd not known German, I might had not been alerted to the problem, and
might have thought she was just wishing me a good day at the office. As it
is, I thought "this sounds like a *bit* of a problem" - after all, it's "ein
anderer Mann", not even "eine andere Fraulein" which might have been
"interesting". ;-)

When I got to the stand at the fair, I got someone to phone up to find out
what was happening and to find me another room for the final night. It
turned out that there had been a problem with the booking and they thought I
was leaving one day earlier. If I'd not known, I'd have got back from a very
boozy final evening in a restaurant and stumbled into bed to find -
yikes!!!!!!!!!
Ian Jackson
2021-07-22 07:10:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by NY
What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke
embarrassingly good English, thanked me for at least *trying* to make
myself understood in German rather than just assuming that they would
know English.
I increasingly wonder whether trying to speak school/phrasebook foreign
is simply a waste of everyone's time, as they are almost certainly
going to speak pretty good English, with no risk of misunderstandings
or getting stuck in a dead end or them putting down their "Handy" to
ask an old person WTF a "Fernsprecher" is.
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign languages
is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be able to
understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what foreigners are
talking about among themselves. This is especially true in certain
situations when they don't realise that you can actually understand a
bit of what they're saying!
--
Ian
Tweed
2021-07-22 07:45:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by NY
What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke
embarrassingly good English, thanked me for at least *trying* to make
myself understood in German rather than just assuming that they would
know English.
I increasingly wonder whether trying to speak school/phrasebook foreign
is simply a waste of everyone's time, as they are almost certainly
going to speak pretty good English, with no risk of misunderstandings
or getting stuck in a dead end or them putting down their "Handy" to
ask an old person WTF a "Fernsprecher" is.
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign languages
is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be able to
understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what foreigners are
talking about among themselves. This is especially true in certain
situations when they don't realise that you can actually understand a
bit of what they're saying!
Another reason for learning a language is to understand the problems a non
native English speaker has with understanding us. I find my monoglot
colleagues speak quickly and use highly idiomatic English. I slow down and
use simplified English phraseology. I’m often complemented by my overseas
colleagues for having “clear” English.

With knowledge of German and French it’s possible to work out what basic
signs mean in most western European countries. It’s very helpful that
Swedish is a second language in Finland, as I can usually make out the
Swedish but Finnish is totally baffling. I has to stand outside some
toilets in Finland once until someone else used them, as I’d no idea which
was the male and female ones. Unfortunately no Swedish sign there and pre
Google translate.
Graeme Wall
2021-07-22 16:33:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by NY
What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke
embarrassingly  good English, thanked me for at least *trying* to
make myself understood  in German rather than just assuming that they
would know English.
I increasingly wonder whether trying to speak school/phrasebook
foreign is simply a waste of everyone's time, as they are almost
certainly going to speak pretty good English, with no risk of
misunderstandings or getting stuck in a dead end or them putting down
their "Handy" to ask an old person WTF a "Fernsprecher" is.
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign languages
is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be able to
understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what foreigners are
talking about among themselves. This is especially true in certain
situations when they don't realise that you can actually understand a
bit of what they're saying!
Can be handy in Cardiff!
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Ian Jackson
2021-07-23 09:10:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by NY
What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke
embarrassingly  good English, thanked me for at least *trying* to
make myself understood  in German rather than just assuming that
they would know English.
I increasingly wonder whether trying to speak school/phrasebook
foreign is simply a waste of everyone's time, as they are almost
certainly going to speak pretty good English, with no risk of
misunderstandings or getting stuck in a dead end or them putting down
their "Handy" to ask an old person WTF a "Fernsprecher" is.
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign
languages is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be able
to understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what foreigners
are talking about among themselves. This is especially true in
certain situations when they don't realise that you can actually
understand a bit of what they're saying!
Can be handy in Cardiff!
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?

About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was immediately
changed to the ITV.
--
Ian
Roland Perry
2021-07-23 09:46:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by NY
What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke
embarrassingly  good English, thanked me for at least *trying* to
make myself understood  in German rather than just assuming that
they would know English.
I increasingly wonder whether trying to speak school/phrasebook
foreign is simply a waste of everyone's time, as they are almost
certainly going to speak pretty good English, with no risk of
misunderstandings or getting stuck in a dead end or them putting
down their "Handy" to ask an old person WTF a "Fernsprecher" is.
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign
languages is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be
able to understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what
foreigners are talking about among themselves. This is especially
true in certain situations when they don't realise that you can
actually understand a bit of what they're saying!
Can be handy in Cardiff!
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was
immediately changed to the ITV.
I sometimes get the feeling that North and South Wales are as divided as
say Yorkshire and Lancashire, despite both the later being in England.
--
Roland Perry
Mark Goodge
2021-07-23 10:24:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ian Jackson
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was
immediately changed to the ITV.
I sometimes get the feeling that North and South Wales are as divided as
say Yorkshire and Lancashire, despite both the later being in England.
The concept of Welsh nationalism, and Welsh identity, is very much a
modern invention. Unlike Scotland, the territory we currently call
"Wales" has never, at any time in history, been a unified, sovereign
state. And - again, unlike Scotland - the border between Wales and
England has been fluid and regularly redrawn. It wasn't until 1972 that
Monmouth was finally decided to be in Wales, for example.

So there's no historic reason why North and South Wales should consider
themselves to have more in common with each other than either does with
it's nearest English neighbours. Both North and South Wales have better
transport links with England than with each other. You can travel by
train from Cardiff to London, and from Wrexham to Manchester, faster
than you can travel by train from Cardiff to Wrexham.

Mark
M***@8g4inq66ume8gwp.gov.uk
2021-07-23 10:51:23 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 11:24:59 +0100
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ian Jackson
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was
immediately changed to the ITV.
I sometimes get the feeling that North and South Wales are as divided as
say Yorkshire and Lancashire, despite both the later being in England.
The concept of Welsh nationalism, and Welsh identity, is very much a
modern invention. Unlike Scotland, the territory we currently call
"Wales" has never, at any time in history, been a unified, sovereign
state. And - again, unlike Scotland - the border between Wales and
England has been fluid and regularly redrawn. It wasn't until 1972 that
Monmouth was finally decided to be in Wales, for example.
You need to read up some more British history if you think the scottish border
was fixed up until very recently (in historic terms). Berwick has been both
in scotland and in england numerous times for example and the border itself
was rather fuzzy back in the day especially when the borders were de facto
run by the Reivers rather than either King and had alliegence to neither.
IIRC it was only when James VI inherited the english throne that he could
attack them from both sides and the problem was finally solved.

And as for scotland being a sovereign state - further north the highlands were
only losely in the grip of Edinburgh and as for the islands , forget it. The
Clans ran those like mafia fiefdoms and the scots kings ventured there at their
peril.
Tweed
2021-07-23 11:07:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@8g4inq66ume8gwp.gov.uk
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 11:24:59 +0100
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ian Jackson
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was
immediately changed to the ITV.
I sometimes get the feeling that North and South Wales are as divided as
say Yorkshire and Lancashire, despite both the later being in England.
The concept of Welsh nationalism, and Welsh identity, is very much a
modern invention. Unlike Scotland, the territory we currently call
"Wales" has never, at any time in history, been a unified, sovereign
state. And - again, unlike Scotland - the border between Wales and
England has been fluid and regularly redrawn. It wasn't until 1972 that
Monmouth was finally decided to be in Wales, for example.
You need to read up some more British history if you think the scottish border
was fixed up until very recently (in historic terms). Berwick has been both
in scotland and in england numerous times for example and the border itself
was rather fuzzy back in the day especially when the borders were de facto
run by the Reivers rather than either King and had alliegence to neither.
IIRC it was only when James VI inherited the english throne that he could
attack them from both sides and the problem was finally solved.
And as for scotland being a sovereign state - further north the highlands were
only losely in the grip of Edinburgh and as for the islands , forget it. The
Clans ran those like mafia fiefdoms and the scots kings ventured there at their
peril.
Berwick changed hands 13 times, but the last time was 1482. That’s quite a
while ago.
Graeme Wall
2021-07-23 12:31:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by M***@8g4inq66ume8gwp.gov.uk
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 11:24:59 +0100
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ian Jackson
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was
immediately changed to the ITV.
I sometimes get the feeling that North and South Wales are as divided as
say Yorkshire and Lancashire, despite both the later being in England.
The concept of Welsh nationalism, and Welsh identity, is very much a
modern invention. Unlike Scotland, the territory we currently call
"Wales" has never, at any time in history, been a unified, sovereign
state. And - again, unlike Scotland - the border between Wales and
England has been fluid and regularly redrawn. It wasn't until 1972 that
Monmouth was finally decided to be in Wales, for example.
You need to read up some more British history if you think the scottish border
was fixed up until very recently (in historic terms). Berwick has been both
in scotland and in england numerous times for example and the border itself
was rather fuzzy back in the day especially when the borders were de facto
run by the Reivers rather than either King and had alliegence to neither.
IIRC it was only when James VI inherited the english throne that he could
attack them from both sides and the problem was finally solved.
And as for scotland being a sovereign state - further north the highlands were
only losely in the grip of Edinburgh and as for the islands , forget it. The
Clans ran those like mafia fiefdoms and the scots kings ventured there at their
peril.
Berwick changed hands 13 times, but the last time was 1482. That’s quite a
while ago.
Seems like only yesterday…
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Tweed
2021-07-23 12:39:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Tweed
Post by M***@8g4inq66ume8gwp.gov.uk
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 11:24:59 +0100
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ian Jackson
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was
immediately changed to the ITV.
I sometimes get the feeling that North and South Wales are as divided as
say Yorkshire and Lancashire, despite both the later being in England.
The concept of Welsh nationalism, and Welsh identity, is very much a
modern invention. Unlike Scotland, the territory we currently call
"Wales" has never, at any time in history, been a unified, sovereign
state. And - again, unlike Scotland - the border between Wales and
England has been fluid and regularly redrawn. It wasn't until 1972 that
Monmouth was finally decided to be in Wales, for example.
You need to read up some more British history if you think the scottish border
was fixed up until very recently (in historic terms). Berwick has been both
in scotland and in england numerous times for example and the border itself
was rather fuzzy back in the day especially when the borders were de facto
run by the Reivers rather than either King and had alliegence to neither.
IIRC it was only when James VI inherited the english throne that he could
attack them from both sides and the problem was finally solved.
And as for scotland being a sovereign state - further north the highlands were
only losely in the grip of Edinburgh and as for the islands , forget it. The
Clans ran those like mafia fiefdoms and the scots kings ventured there at their
peril.
Berwick changed hands 13 times, but the last time was 1482. That’s quite a
while ago.
Seems like only yesterday…
At the Berwick tip I’ve been asked if I’m from Scotland and would be
presumably turned away if I’d said yes. Now it’s been turned on it’s head
for you to show local proof of address. Not quite sure what you are
supposed to do if you are on holiday and are wanting responsibly dump some
excess rubbish. The tip is about a mile south of the border.
Basil Jet
2021-07-23 12:44:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
At the Berwick tip I’ve been asked if I’m from Scotland and would be
presumably turned away if I’d said yes. Now it’s been turned on it’s head
for you to show local proof of address. Not quite sure what you are
supposed to do if you are on holiday and are wanting responsibly dump some
excess rubbish. The tip is about a mile south of the border.
Maybe they want you to just throw it over the border?
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
1996 - United - Mekons
Roland Perry
2021-07-23 12:56:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Tweed
Berwick changed hands 13 times, but the last time was 1482. That’s quite a
while ago.
Seems like only yesterday…
At the Berwick tip I’ve been asked if I’m from Scotland and would be
presumably turned away if I’d said yes. Now it’s been turned on it’s head
for you to show local proof of address. Not quite sure what you are
supposed to do if you are on holiday and are wanting responsibly dump some
excess rubbish. The tip is about a mile south of the border.
Assuming you aren't sleeping in the car in a layby, you should dispose
of holiday rubbish at the place where you sleep the night.

But look on the bright side, many household refuse centres require
positive proof you are a *resident* of the county in question, so a
verbal assurance you are a visitor from the other end of the correct
country doubly won't be good enough.
--
Roland Perry
Tweed
2021-07-23 16:24:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Tweed
Berwick changed hands 13 times, but the last time was 1482. That’s quite a
while ago.
Seems like only yesterday…
At the Berwick tip I’ve been asked if I’m from Scotland and would be
presumably turned away if I’d said yes. Now it’s been turned on it’s head
for you to show local proof of address. Not quite sure what you are
supposed to do if you are on holiday and are wanting responsibly dump some
excess rubbish. The tip is about a mile south of the border.
Assuming you aren't sleeping in the car in a layby, you should dispose
of holiday rubbish at the place where you sleep the night.
But look on the bright side, many household refuse centres require
positive proof you are a *resident* of the county in question, so a
verbal assurance you are a visitor from the other end of the correct
country doubly won't be good enough.
And they wonder why fly tipping is on the increase.
Marland
2021-07-24 21:57:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Tweed
Berwick changed hands 13 times, but the last time was 1482. That’s quite a
while ago.
Seems like only yesterday…
At the Berwick tip I’ve been asked if I’m from Scotland and would be
presumably turned away if I’d said yes. Now it’s been turned on it’s head
for you to show local proof of address. Not quite sure what you are
supposed to do if you are on holiday and are wanting responsibly dump some
excess rubbish. The tip is about a mile south of the border.
Assuming you aren't sleeping in the car in a layby, you should dispose
of holiday rubbish at the place where you sleep the night.
But look on the bright side, many household refuse centres require
positive proof you are a *resident* of the county in question, so a
verbal assurance you are a visitor from the other end of the correct
country doubly won't be good enough.
And they wonder why fly tipping is on the increase.
Our nearest tip run by Hampshire CC is actually located in Dorset which
naturally leads to problems as for quite a few Dorset residents it is their
nearest facility being the closest one to home.
Arrangements between the two authorities for appropriating costs generally
allow those Dorset residents nearby to use it but there have been occasions
when such measures have broken down which meant those Dorset residents have
had to drive past it and do a much longer round trip to one that is run by
by Dorset CC as was ,now superseded by Dorset Council or the BCP council
which covers Christchurch ,Bournemouth and Poole.

Personally I think the whole issue of waste collection ,rubbish , fly
tipping ,waste disposal , recycling is such a big concern it should be
dealt with on a national basis.
It is ridiculous that one authority can recycle yoghurt pots and one next
door will not while consumers are exhorted to recycle as much as possible.


GH
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2021-07-25 07:56:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Tweed
Berwick changed hands 13 times, but the last time was 1482. That’s quite a
while ago.
Seems like only yesterday…
At the Berwick tip I’ve been asked if I’m from Scotland and would be
presumably turned away if I’d said yes. Now it’s been turned on it’s head
for you to show local proof of address. Not quite sure what you are
supposed to do if you are on holiday and are wanting responsibly dump some
excess rubbish. The tip is about a mile south of the border.
Assuming you aren't sleeping in the car in a layby, you should dispose
of holiday rubbish at the place where you sleep the night.
But look on the bright side, many household refuse centres require
positive proof you are a *resident* of the county in question, so a
verbal assurance you are a visitor from the other end of the correct
country doubly won't be good enough.
And they wonder why fly tipping is on the increase.
Our nearest tip run by Hampshire CC is actually located in Dorset which
naturally leads to problems as for quite a few Dorset residents it is their
nearest facility being the closest one to home.
Arrangements between the two authorities for appropriating costs generally
allow those Dorset residents nearby to use it but there have been occasions
when such measures have broken down which meant those Dorset residents have
had to drive past it and do a much longer round trip to one that is run by
by Dorset CC as was ,now superseded by Dorset Council or the BCP council
which covers Christchurch ,Bournemouth and Poole.
Personally I think the whole issue of waste collection ,rubbish , fly
tipping ,waste disposal , recycling is such a big concern it should be
dealt with on a national basis.
It is ridiculous that one authority can recycle yoghurt pots and one next
door will not while consumers are exhorted to recycle as much as possible.
I would go even further and say the regulations on the type of
packagings should tightened. The regulations regarding over-packaging
should also be enforced.
Tweed
2021-07-25 08:11:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Marland
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Tweed
Berwick changed hands 13 times, but the last time was 1482. That’s quite a
while ago.
Seems like only yesterday…
At the Berwick tip I’ve been asked if I’m from Scotland and would be
presumably turned away if I’d said yes. Now it’s been turned on it’s head
for you to show local proof of address. Not quite sure what you are
supposed to do if you are on holiday and are wanting responsibly dump some
excess rubbish. The tip is about a mile south of the border.
Assuming you aren't sleeping in the car in a layby, you should dispose
of holiday rubbish at the place where you sleep the night.
But look on the bright side, many household refuse centres require
positive proof you are a *resident* of the county in question, so a
verbal assurance you are a visitor from the other end of the correct
country doubly won't be good enough.
And they wonder why fly tipping is on the increase.
Our nearest tip run by Hampshire CC is actually located in Dorset which
naturally leads to problems as for quite a few Dorset residents it is their
nearest facility being the closest one to home.
Arrangements between the two authorities for appropriating costs generally
allow those Dorset residents nearby to use it but there have been occasions
when such measures have broken down which meant those Dorset residents have
had to drive past it and do a much longer round trip to one that is run by
by Dorset CC as was ,now superseded by Dorset Council or the BCP council
which covers Christchurch ,Bournemouth and Poole.
Personally I think the whole issue of waste collection ,rubbish , fly
tipping ,waste disposal , recycling is such a big concern it should be
dealt with on a national basis.
It is ridiculous that one authority can recycle yoghurt pots and one next
door will not while consumers are exhorted to recycle as much as possible.
I would go even further and say the regulations on the type of
packagings should tightened. The regulations regarding over-packaging
should also be enforced.
The big problem with recycling is a lot of it isn’t. Paper based stuff does
get repulped and metals are easily reused. Plastic often doesn’t have a
market or gets shipped to and dumped in an overseas country. Even if it is
reused it gets turned into something like road cones (and many other
similar products) that themselves are not recycled. So the useable lifespan
of the polymer is only exuded by one generation. So we get to feel good by
chucking the yoghurt pot in the recycle bin, but we aren’t really doing
that much good.
Roland Perry
2021-07-25 08:28:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tweed
The big problem with recycling is a lot of it isn’t. Paper based stuff does
get repulped and metals are easily reused. Plastic often doesn’t have a
market or gets shipped to and dumped in an overseas country. Even if it is
reused it gets turned into something like road cones (and many other
similar products) that themselves are not recycled. So the useable lifespan
of the polymer is only exuded by one generation. So we get to feel good by
chucking the yoghurt pot in the recycle bin, but we aren’t really doing
that much good.
I used to have a colleague who was very much into "Green" benchmarking,
and his view was that it could easily be more environmental to landfill
a yoghurt pot, than to use drinking water to rinse it out, then put it
through the various sorting/extraction processes to recover the polymer.

The problem is, the public generally doesn't have much attention span
for all this, and needs "one size fits all" rules, where you end up
accepting lots of stuff that's really not very useful to.

When I lived in the Midlands the council wouldn't accept glass bottles,
because they did hand-sorting and they regarded it as a safety risk
(many get broken en-route, and then people put things like broken
windows in the recycling because "well it's glass, stupid"). They argued
that it was preferable for people to use bottle-banks, for example at
the store they bought the bottle from in the first place.

My district council has removed all their bottle banks (and paper/card
etc) on the grounds that the public was so bad at sorting it into the
relevant bin the contents were pretty useless, plus such sites were
magnet for fly tipping of all kinds of other things like bits of old
carpet, car tyres and so on.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2021-07-25 08:05:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Tweed
Berwick changed hands 13 times, but the last time was 1482. That’s quite a
while ago.
Seems like only yesterday…
At the Berwick tip I’ve been asked if I’m from Scotland and would be
presumably turned away if I’d said yes. Now it’s been turned on it’s head
for you to show local proof of address. Not quite sure what you are
supposed to do if you are on holiday and are wanting responsibly dump some
excess rubbish. The tip is about a mile south of the border.
Assuming you aren't sleeping in the car in a layby, you should dispose
of holiday rubbish at the place where you sleep the night.
But look on the bright side, many household refuse centres require
positive proof you are a *resident* of the county in question, so a
verbal assurance you are a visitor from the other end of the correct
country doubly won't be good enough.
And they wonder why fly tipping is on the increase.
Not much fly tipping is done by people who would otherwise have been
happy to go to a household waste site.

Unless we are talking about the modern extensions of the definition to
include things like people putting a black sack of waste next to a
random litter bin, rather than having it collected from home or because
it's commercial waste that the council isn't funded to collect
free-of-charge in the first place
Post by Marland
Our nearest tip run by Hampshire CC is actually located in Dorset which
naturally leads to problems as for quite a few Dorset residents it is their
nearest facility being the closest one to home.
Arrangements between the two authorities for appropriating costs generally
allow those Dorset residents nearby to use it but there have been occasions
when such measures have broken down which meant those Dorset residents have
had to drive past it and do a much longer round trip to one that is run by
by Dorset CC as was ,now superseded by Dorset Council or the BCP council
which covers Christchurch ,Bournemouth and Poole.
Personally I think the whole issue of waste collection ,rubbish , fly
tipping ,waste disposal , recycling is such a big concern it should be
dealt with on a national basis.
In which case it needs to be funded centrally. The current Balkanised
arrangements are a combination of the politics of localism (local waste
collection schemes for local people) and having to fund it from the
Council Tax, where not just local taxpayers are breathing down their
neck to avoid increases, but central Government has traditionally sought
to cap.
Post by Marland
It is ridiculous that one authority can recycle yoghurt pots and one next
door will not while consumers are exhorted to recycle as much as possible.
It depends which contractors they have hired to sort and sell on the
waste, and there's no one-size-fits all solution. There isn't even any
consensus as to whether things like kerbside sorting versus mixed-waste
that's deport-sorted [by hand, or maybe by machine] is the most
affordable or pragmatic locally.
--
Roland Perry
Tweed
2021-07-25 08:46:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Tweed
Berwick changed hands 13 times, but the last time was 1482. That’s quite a
while ago.
Seems like only yesterday…
At the Berwick tip I’ve been asked if I’m from Scotland and would be
presumably turned away if I’d said yes. Now it’s been turned on it’s head
for you to show local proof of address. Not quite sure what you are
supposed to do if you are on holiday and are wanting responsibly dump some
excess rubbish. The tip is about a mile south of the border.
Assuming you aren't sleeping in the car in a layby, you should dispose
of holiday rubbish at the place where you sleep the night.
But look on the bright side, many household refuse centres require
positive proof you are a *resident* of the county in question, so a
verbal assurance you are a visitor from the other end of the correct
country doubly won't be good enough.
And they wonder why fly tipping is on the increase.
Not much fly tipping is done by people who would otherwise have been
happy to go to a household waste site.
I wouldn’t bet on that. Round our way they’ve imposed charges for hardcore,
tiles and the like, at rather a steep rate. So anyone doing something like
a DIY bathroom replacement is going to get stung. So it becomes attractive
to hire the no questions asked bloke from Gumtree, who dumps everything in
a farm gate. It’s happening a lot round here.

Charles Ellson
2021-07-25 03:12:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Berwick changed hands 13 times, but the last time was 1482. That’s quite a
while ago.
Seems like only yesterday…
At the Berwick tip I’ve been asked if I’m from Scotland and would be
presumably turned away if I’d said yes. Now it’s been turned on it’s head
for you to show local proof of address. Not quite sure what you are
supposed to do if you are on holiday and are wanting responsibly dump some
excess rubbish. The tip is about a mile south of the border.
Assuming you aren't sleeping in the car in a layby, you should dispose
of holiday rubbish at the place where you sleep the night.
But look on the bright side, many household refuse centres require
positive proof you are a *resident* of the county in question, so a
verbal assurance you are a visitor from the other end of the correct
country doubly won't be good enough.
County? You have to be in the same burgh round here.
Roland Perry
2021-07-25 08:11:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Tweed
Berwick changed hands 13 times, but the last time was 1482. That’s quite a
while ago.
Seems like only yesterday…
At the Berwick tip I’ve been asked if I’m from Scotland and would be
presumably turned away if I’d said yes. Now it’s been turned on it’s head
for you to show local proof of address. Not quite sure what you are
supposed to do if you are on holiday and are wanting responsibly dump some
excess rubbish. The tip is about a mile south of the border.
Assuming you aren't sleeping in the car in a layby, you should dispose
of holiday rubbish at the place where you sleep the night.
But look on the bright side, many household refuse centres require
positive proof you are a *resident* of the county in question, so a
verbal assurance you are a visitor from the other end of the correct
country doubly won't be good enough.
County? You have to be in the same burgh round here.
Sometimes it's helpful to abbreviate, and not write an essay every time
about the various tiers of government, what's handled by Unitary
authorities differently from County/District, or within London Boroughs
versus whatever the GLA is called this week.

It's whoever is running the local household refuse centres, which you
can determine from the signage and their websites, and hence workout
their natural catchment area.
--
Roland Perry
M***@i90f7u69rv8n383.biz
2021-07-23 15:31:46 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 11:07:34 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by M***@8g4inq66ume8gwp.gov.uk
You need to read up some more British history if you think the scottish
border
Post by M***@8g4inq66ume8gwp.gov.uk
was fixed up until very recently (in historic terms). Berwick has been both
in scotland and in england numerous times for example and the border itself
was rather fuzzy back in the day especially when the borders were de facto
run by the Reivers rather than either King and had alliegence to neither.
IIRC it was only when James VI inherited the english throne that he could
attack them from both sides and the problem was finally solved.
And as for scotland being a sovereign state - further north the highlands
were
Post by M***@8g4inq66ume8gwp.gov.uk
only losely in the grip of Edinburgh and as for the islands , forget it. The
Clans ran those like mafia fiefdoms and the scots kings ventured there at
their
Post by M***@8g4inq66ume8gwp.gov.uk
peril.
Berwick changed hands 13 times, but the last time was 1482. That’s quite a
while ago.
Only 120 years before the union of the crowns however.
Sam Wilson
2021-07-23 10:29:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by NY
What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke
embarrassingly  good English, thanked me for at least *trying* to
make myself understood  in German rather than just assuming that
they would know English.
I increasingly wonder whether trying to speak school/phrasebook
foreign is simply a waste of everyone's time, as they are almost
certainly going to speak pretty good English, with no risk of
misunderstandings or getting stuck in a dead end or them putting
down their "Handy" to ask an old person WTF a "Fernsprecher" is.
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign
languages is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be
able to understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what
foreigners are talking about among themselves. This is especially
true in certain situations when they don't realise that you can
actually understand a bit of what they're saying!
Can be handy in Cardiff!
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was
immediately changed to the ITV.
I sometimes get the feeling that North and South Wales are as divided as
say Yorkshire and Lancashire, despite both the later being in England.
Yes, partly because physical communications between them is so (relatively)
difficult. The language and accents are quite different too, to the extent
that, IIUC, modern Welsh as it’s taught is a kind of artificial synthesis
of the two dialect groups.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Graeme Wall
2021-07-23 11:34:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by NY
What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke
embarrassingly  good English, thanked me for at least *trying* to
make myself understood  in German rather than just assuming that
they would know English.
I increasingly wonder whether trying to speak school/phrasebook
foreign is simply a waste of everyone's time, as they are almost
certainly going to speak pretty good English, with no risk of
misunderstandings or getting stuck in a dead end or them putting
down their "Handy" to ask an old person WTF a "Fernsprecher" is.
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign
languages is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be
able to understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what
foreigners are talking about among themselves. This is especially
true in certain situations when they don't realise that you can
actually understand a bit of what they're saying!
Can be handy in Cardiff!
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was
immediately changed to the ITV.
I sometimes get the feeling that North and South Wales are as divided as
say Yorkshire and Lancashire, despite both the later being in England.
Yes, partly because physical communications between them is so (relatively)
difficult. The language and accents are quite different too, to the extent
that, IIUC, modern Welsh as it’s taught is a kind of artificial synthesis
of the two dialect groups.
It is said that the Patagonian Welsh, who speak the older form of the
North Wales dialect, are virtually incomprehensible to modern South Walians.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Ian Jackson
2021-07-23 11:44:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by NY
What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke
embarrassingly  good English, thanked me for at least *trying* to
make myself understood  in German rather than just assuming that
they would know English.
I increasingly wonder whether trying to speak school/phrasebook
foreign is simply a waste of everyone's time, as they are almost
certainly going to speak pretty good English, with no risk of
misunderstandings or getting stuck in a dead end or them putting
down their "Handy" to ask an old person WTF a "Fernsprecher" is.
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign
languages is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be
able to understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what
foreigners are talking about among themselves. This is especially
true in certain situations when they don't realise that you can
actually understand a bit of what they're saying!
Can be handy in Cardiff!
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was
immediately changed to the ITV.
I sometimes get the feeling that North and South Wales are as divided as
say Yorkshire and Lancashire, despite both the later being in England.
Yes, partly because physical communications between them is so (relatively)
difficult. The language and accents are quite different too, to the extent
that, IIUC, modern Welsh as it’s taught is a kind of artificial synthesis
of the two dialect groups.
It is said that the Patagonian Welsh, who speak the older form of the
North Wales dialect, are virtually incomprehensible to modern South Walians.
--
Marland
2021-07-24 17:13:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
The language and accents are quite different too, to the extent
that, IIUC, modern Welsh as it’s taught is a kind of artificial synthesis
of the two dialect groups.
Sam
A similar thing is happening in Cornwall where unlike Wales the language
effectively died out in everyday use in the 18th century . A revival
started in the 20th but there was considerable disagreement between
different groups of revivalists as to whose version was the correct one
though they seemed to have buried the hatchet enough to get a version
officially recognised. Numbers of fluent speakers are now reckoned to be
around 500 with around 3000 claiming some fluency ,though how many of those
know more than Kernow (Cornwall) or Sodhva Greslu (Police station)
which this vocal minority of the types who support this sort of thing have
now got the public purse paying for signs to be in both Languages. By usual
types I mean the middle class trendies with the Time and Money indulge in
such things and know the right strings to pull between folk singing ,and
sending little Borwelen and Karodoc to a school that now gives Cornish
lessons.
The irony is that most of these peoples roots are more likely to be
Birmingham than Bodmin while
most of the real Cornish are too busy struggling to make a living from
unseen by tourists council estates having been driven out from tradition
places on the coast by incomers and second homers
from the home counties whose influx is fast destroying the characteristics
of the County that attracted them there.

Hopefully the prospect of Lithium mining will become a reality and Cornwall
will have an industrial revival again though no doubt the incomers will
turn Nimbyish and oppose such things while enthusing how nice the landscape
looks with those interesting old engine houses.


GH
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2021-07-23 11:49:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ian Jackson
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was
immediately changed to the ITV.
I sometimes get the feeling that North and South Wales are as divided as
say Yorkshire and Lancashire, despite both the later being in England.
Things may have changed now (eg with the arrival of the Welsh Government
etc), but growing up in on the North Wales coast in the '80s and '90s there
was definitely more of an affinity to north west England than to South
Wales. That may, of course, be because my parents and grandparents were
from Lancashire and Cheshire, and we lived in a predominantly
English-speaking area; perhaps a few miles inland there was less feeling of
such affinity, though I guess there wouldn't be much greater feeling of
connection to Cardiff!

We could only get Welsh TV; the 'local' news never covered places we'd
heard of, and the adverts on HTV never advertised places were were likely
to visit. My dad had a particularly low opinion of the Welsh TV news, "It's
all rape, pillage and plunder!". My gran lived a few miles down the road
and could get English TV.

At the time I don't even tho they were any direct north-south Wales trains
(change at Crewe or Birmingham).


Anna Noyd-Dryver
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2021-07-23 16:15:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ian Jackson
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was
immediately changed to the ITV.
I sometimes get the feeling that North and South Wales are as divided as
say Yorkshire and Lancashire, despite both the later being in England.
Things may have changed now (eg with the arrival of the Welsh Government
etc), but growing up in on the North Wales coast in the '80s and '90s there
was definitely more of an affinity to north west England than to South
Wales. That may, of course, be because my parents and grandparents were
from Lancashire and Cheshire, and we lived in a predominantly
English-speaking area; perhaps a few miles inland there was less feeling of
such affinity, though I guess there wouldn't be much greater feeling of
connection to Cardiff!
We could only get Welsh TV; the 'local' news never covered places we'd
heard of, and the adverts on HTV never advertised places were were likely
to visit. My dad had a particularly low opinion of the Welsh TV news, "It's
all rape, pillage and plunder!". My gran lived a few miles down the road
and could get English TV.
At the time I don't even tho they were any direct north-south Wales trains
(change at Crewe or Birmingham).
Anna Noyd-Dryver
I have been in tiny villages in northern Wales, where English was most
definitely not the first language. I remember when I was in a pub in one
place, and I asked the girl behind the bar something. She paused for a
couple of seconds because she had to remember how to respond in English.
She then sorry to me, as she primarily spoke Welsh and had to recall how
to say something in English.

It's not that she did not speak English, for she did. She just spoke it
so rarely in that community that she needed a little time to recall.
Sam Wilson
2021-07-24 08:57:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ian Jackson
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was
immediately changed to the ITV.
I sometimes get the feeling that North and South Wales are as divided as
say Yorkshire and Lancashire, despite both the later being in England.
Things may have changed now (eg with the arrival of the Welsh Government
etc), but growing up in on the North Wales coast in the '80s and '90s there
was definitely more of an affinity to north west England than to South
Wales. That may, of course, be because my parents and grandparents were
from Lancashire and Cheshire, and we lived in a predominantly
English-speaking area; perhaps a few miles inland there was less feeling of
such affinity, though I guess there wouldn't be much greater feeling of
connection to Cardiff!
We could only get Welsh TV; the 'local' news never covered places we'd
heard of, and the adverts on HTV never advertised places were were likely
to visit. My dad had a particularly low opinion of the Welsh TV news, "It's
all rape, pillage and plunder!". My gran lived a few miles down the road
and could get English TV.
At the time I don't even tho they were any direct north-south Wales trains
(change at Crewe or Birmingham).
Anna Noyd-Dryver
I have been in tiny villages in northern Wales, where English was most
definitely not the first language. I remember when I was in a pub in one
place, and I asked the girl behind the bar something. She paused for a
couple of seconds because she had to remember how to respond in English.
She then sorry to me, as she primarily spoke Welsh and had to recall how
to say something in English.
It's not that she did not speak English, for she did. She just spoke it
so rarely in that community that she needed a little time to recall.
I had a friend at University from near Aberystwyth who hadn’t had to speak
English (as opposed to being exposed to it) until she went to primary
school. At University she studied Chinese and said it was still quite hard
work reading translations from Chinese into English and then mentally
having to translate them into Welsh.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
2021-07-24 09:51:12 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 08:57:04 -0000 (UTC)
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
place, and I asked the girl behind the bar something. She paused for a
couple of seconds because she had to remember how to respond in English.
She then sorry to me, as she primarily spoke Welsh and had to recall how
to say something in English.
It's not that she did not speak English, for she did. She just spoke it
so rarely in that community that she needed a little time to recall.
I had a friend at University from near Aberystwyth who hadn’t had to speak
English (as opposed to being exposed to it) until she went to primary
school. At University she studied Chinese and said it was still quite hard
work reading translations from Chinese into English and then mentally
having to translate them into Welsh.
Your friends parents should be ashamed of themselves. Could you imagine for
example anyone born in france being able to function without being able to speak
French until aged 7?
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2021-07-24 09:59:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 08:57:04 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
place, and I asked the girl behind the bar something. She paused for a
couple of seconds because she had to remember how to respond in English.
She then sorry to me, as she primarily spoke Welsh and had to recall how
to say something in English.
It's not that she did not speak English, for she did. She just spoke it
so rarely in that community that she needed a little time to recall.
I had a friend at University from near Aberystwyth who hadn’t had to speak
English (as opposed to being exposed to it) until she went to primary
school. At University she studied Chinese and said it was still quite hard
work reading translations from Chinese into English and then mentally
having to translate them into Welsh.
Your friends parents should be ashamed of themselves. Could you imagine for
example anyone born in france being able to function without being able to speak
French until aged 7?
7?!? 4.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
M***@nqgf16xtrq.edu
2021-07-24 10:19:38 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 09:59:55 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 08:57:04 -0000 (UTC)
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
place, and I asked the girl behind the bar something. She paused for a
couple of seconds because she had to remember how to respond in English.
She then sorry to me, as she primarily spoke Welsh and had to recall how
to say something in English.
It's not that she did not speak English, for she did. She just spoke it
so rarely in that community that she needed a little time to recall.
I had a friend at University from near Aberystwyth who hadn’t had to speak
English (as opposed to being exposed to it) until she went to primary
school. At University she studied Chinese and said it was still quite hard
work reading translations from Chinese into English and then mentally
having to translate them into Welsh.
Your friends parents should be ashamed of themselves. Could you imagine for
example anyone born in france being able to function without being able to
speak
Post by M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
French until aged 7?
7?!? 4.
Well 5 now, but it used to be 7. Regardless, not teaching your kids the
national language (and whether they like or not thats what english is) is
deliberately disadvantaging your child just to make a political point.
NY
2021-07-24 10:27:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@nqgf16xtrq.edu
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
Your friends parents should be ashamed of themselves. Could you imagine for
example anyone born in france being able to function without being able to
speak
Post by M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
French until aged 7?
7?!? 4.
Well 5 now, but it used to be 7. Regardless, not teaching your kids the
national language (and whether they like or not thats what english is) is
deliberately disadvantaging your child just to make a political point.
Gosh, did French children not start at their equivalent of an infant/primary
school until age 7?

I started at infant school a month or so after my 5th birthday. I remember
there was a separate intake ("the class in the hall") for those children
whose birthdays were during the Easter term and who had therefore turned 5
just before the start of the summer term. The school didn't a separate
classroom for those children, so a corner of the school hall was partitioned
off for them, which mean that no-one else could have PE (in the hall) during
the summer term, so PE was in the playground or on the fields in that summer
term. That class-in-the-hall intake then joined the new, younger intake that
started in the Autumn term. I wonder if such peculiarities still happen or
whether there is now just one intake everywhere in the Autumn term.
Graeme Wall
2021-07-24 13:10:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by M***@nqgf16xtrq.edu
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
Your friends parents should be ashamed of themselves. Could you imagine for
example anyone born in france being able to function without being able to
speak
Post by M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
French until aged 7?
7?!? 4.
Well 5 now, but it used to be 7. Regardless, not teaching your kids the
national language (and whether they like or not thats what english is) is
deliberately disadvantaging your child just to make a political point.
Gosh, did French children not start at their equivalent of an
infant/primary school until age 7?
Not just French, quite a few countries don't (didn't?) start till 7.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2021-07-24 10:29:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@nqgf16xtrq.edu
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 09:59:55 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 08:57:04 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
place, and I asked the girl behind the bar something. She paused for a
couple of seconds because she had to remember how to respond in English.
She then sorry to me, as she primarily spoke Welsh and had to recall how
to say something in English.
It's not that she did not speak English, for she did. She just spoke it
so rarely in that community that she needed a little time to recall.
I had a friend at University from near Aberystwyth who hadn’t had to speak
English (as opposed to being exposed to it) until she went to primary
school. At University she studied Chinese and said it was still quite hard
work reading translations from Chinese into English and then mentally
having to translate them into Welsh.
Your friends parents should be ashamed of themselves. Could you imagine for
example anyone born in france being able to function without being able to
speak
Post by M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
French until aged 7?
7?!? 4.
Well 5 now, but it used to be 7.
My niece has just finished her first year of primary school, a few days
before her fifth birthday. I started primary school at 4 too, and that was
in 1979. How long ago did people not go to school until 7?!


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Mike Roberts
2021-07-24 10:57:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by M***@nqgf16xtrq.edu
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 09:59:55 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 08:57:04 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
place, and I asked the girl behind the bar something. She paused for a
couple of seconds because she had to remember how to respond in English.
She then sorry to me, as she primarily spoke Welsh and had to recall how
to say something in English.
It's not that she did not speak English, for she did. She just spoke it
so rarely in that community that she needed a little time to recall.
I had a friend at University from near Aberystwyth who hadn’t had to speak
English (as opposed to being exposed to it) until she went to primary
school. At University she studied Chinese and said it was still quite hard
work reading translations from Chinese into English and then mentally
having to translate them into Welsh.
Your friends parents should be ashamed of themselves. Could you imagine for
example anyone born in france being able to function without being able to
speak
Post by M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
French until aged 7?
7?!? 4.
Well 5 now, but it used to be 7.
My niece has just finished her first year of primary school, a few days
before her fifth birthday. I started primary school at 4 too, and that was
in 1979. How long ago did people not go to school until 7?!
Anna Noyd-Dryver
You all must be younger than me. One of my digs mates at UCW Aberystwyth
in 1964 was from north west Anglesey and only learnt English when he
went to grammar school. When some relatives visited him all 3 students
in the digs had one common room so we were all in there together. Out of
courtesy to me and the other monoglot Englishman they conversed in
English until one of them had to ask "how do you say ..." the reply
would be surrounded by Welsh words and the conversation would continue
in Welsh until they realised we were still present. Not even BBC radio
had penetrated some parts of Wales at that time.
Sam Wilson
2021-07-24 14:31:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by M***@nqgf16xtrq.edu
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 09:59:55 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 08:57:04 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
place, and I asked the girl behind the bar something. She paused for a
couple of seconds because she had to remember how to respond in English.
She then sorry to me, as she primarily spoke Welsh and had to recall how
to say something in English.
It's not that she did not speak English, for she did. She just spoke it
so rarely in that community that she needed a little time to recall.
I had a friend at University from near Aberystwyth who hadn’t had to speak
English (as opposed to being exposed to it) until she went to primary
school. At University she studied Chinese and said it was still quite hard
work reading translations from Chinese into English and then mentally
having to translate them into Welsh.
Your friends parents should be ashamed of themselves. Could you imagine for
example anyone born in france being able to function without being able to
speak
Post by M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
French until aged 7?
7?!? 4.
Well 5 now, but it used to be 7.
My niece has just finished her first year of primary school, a few days
before her fifth birthday. I started primary school at 4 too, and that was
in 1979. How long ago did people not go to school until 7?!
I started primary school at 4 and I’m roughly two decades older than you
are.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Graeme Wall
2021-07-24 15:54:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by M***@nqgf16xtrq.edu
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 09:59:55 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 08:57:04 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
place, and I asked the girl behind the bar something. She paused for a
couple of seconds because she had to remember how to respond in English.
She then sorry to me, as she primarily spoke Welsh and had to recall how
to say something in English.
It's not that she did not speak English, for she did. She just spoke it
so rarely in that community that she needed a little time to recall.
I had a friend at University from near Aberystwyth who hadn’t had to speak
English (as opposed to being exposed to it) until she went to primary
school. At University she studied Chinese and said it was still quite hard
work reading translations from Chinese into English and then mentally
having to translate them into Welsh.
Your friends parents should be ashamed of themselves. Could you imagine for
example anyone born in france being able to function without being able to
speak
Post by M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
French until aged 7?
7?!? 4.
Well 5 now, but it used to be 7.
My niece has just finished her first year of primary school, a few days
before her fifth birthday. I started primary school at 4 too, and that was
in 1979. How long ago did people not go to school until 7?!
I started primary school at 4 and I’m roughly two decades older than you
are.
I'm about a decade older than you and can't remember how old I was when
I started school!
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Sam Wilson
2021-07-24 18:36:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by M***@nqgf16xtrq.edu
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 09:59:55 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 08:57:04 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
place, and I asked the girl behind the bar something. She paused for a
couple of seconds because she had to remember how to respond in English.
She then sorry to me, as she primarily spoke Welsh and had to recall how
to say something in English.
It's not that she did not speak English, for she did. She just spoke it
so rarely in that community that she needed a little time to recall.
I had a friend at University from near Aberystwyth who hadn’t had to speak
English (as opposed to being exposed to it) until she went to primary
school. At University she studied Chinese and said it was still quite hard
work reading translations from Chinese into English and then mentally
having to translate them into Welsh.
Your friends parents should be ashamed of themselves. Could you imagine for
example anyone born in france being able to function without being able to
speak
Post by M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
French until aged 7?
7?!? 4.
Well 5 now, but it used to be 7.
My niece has just finished her first year of primary school, a few days
before her fifth birthday. I started primary school at 4 too, and that was
in 1979. How long ago did people not go to school until 7?!
I started primary school at 4 and I’m roughly two decades older than you
are.
I'm about a decade older than you and can't remember how old I was when
I started school!
Age has some advantages, then. :-)

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Peter Johnson
2021-07-24 19:01:26 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 14:31:31 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
I started primary school at 4
Apparently on my third birthday (1952) the doctor turned up and gave
my mother a note, which meant that I started at primary school the
next day. The reason was that I was the eldest of three, the youngest
being three weeks old, and he thought it would be a help to my mother
to be relieved from have to care for one of her children for a few
hours. Fortunately the school was at the bottom of the garden and
there was an access to it by next door's house. Don't know if such a
thing could happen these days.
NY
2021-07-24 19:26:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Johnson
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 14:31:31 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
I started primary school at 4
Apparently on my third birthday (1952) the doctor turned up and gave
my mother a note, which meant that I started at primary school the
next day. The reason was that I was the eldest of three, the youngest
being three weeks old, and he thought it would be a help to my mother
to be relieved from have to care for one of her children for a few
hours. Fortunately the school was at the bottom of the garden and
there was an access to it by next door's house. Don't know if such a
thing could happen these days.
Talking of unconventional things...

My dad got a lift to and from school each day with his teacher and attended
unofficially for a while before he started officially - the reason... his
mum (my grandma) was his teacher ;-) I'm not sure whether schools would put
very young children in a class that was taught by a parent, from the point
of view of the child not being able to distinguish at that age between the
mother as a mother and the mother as a teacher - that things which were
possible at home were not possible at school, and that he must obey the
teacher without question - no "Oh, Muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuum, do I *have* to?".

One of my wife's friends is a teacher at a secondary school and he and his
son were given a choice as to whether the father should or should not teach
his son - but that's for a boy who is about 14 years old. I'm not sure what
would have happened if the father had wanted to teach his son but his son
had wanted to be taught by anyone but his father ;-) And of course by that
age, different subjects are taught by different teachers, so it's as if the
parent has to teach the child for every lesson five days a week.

I'm trying to remember how old I was before teaching changed from same
teacher for everything, mostly in the same classroom, to different teacher
for each subject, mostly involving changes of classroom each lesson. I think
it was same teacher at my first school (infants and juniors) until we moved
to somewhere else, then different teachers once I went to middle school and
secondary school. But I believe some schools continue same teacher and/or
same classroom for a lot longer.
Graeme Wall
2021-07-24 19:32:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Peter Johnson
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 14:31:31 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
I started primary school at 4
Apparently on my third birthday (1952) the doctor turned up and gave
my mother a note, which meant that I started at primary school the
next day. The reason was that I was the eldest of three, the youngest
being three weeks old, and he thought it would be a help to my mother
to be relieved from have to care for one of her children for a few
hours. Fortunately the school was at the bottom of the garden and
there was an access to it by next door's house. Don't know if such a
thing could happen these days.
Talking of unconventional things...
My dad got a lift to and from school each day with his teacher and
attended unofficially for a while before he started officially - the
reason... his mum (my grandma) was his teacher ;-)  I'm not sure whether
schools would put very young children in a class that was taught by a
parent, from the point of view of the child not being able to
distinguish at that age between the mother as a mother and the mother as
a teacher - that things which were possible at home were not possible at
school, and that he must obey the teacher without question - no "Oh,
Muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuum, do I *have* to?".
One of my wife's friends is a teacher at a secondary school and he and
his son were given a choice as to whether the father should or should
not teach his son - but that's for a boy who is about 14 years old. I'm
not sure what would have happened if the father had wanted to teach his
son but his son had wanted to be taught by anyone but his father ;-)
And of course by that age, different subjects are taught by different
teachers, so it's as if the parent has to teach the child for every
lesson five days a week.
I'm trying to remember how old I was before teaching changed from same
teacher for everything, mostly in the same classroom, to different
teacher for each subject, mostly involving changes of classroom each
lesson. I think it was same teacher at my first school (infants and
juniors) until we moved to somewhere else, then different teachers once
I went to middle school and secondary school. But I believe some schools
continue same teacher and/or same classroom for a lot longer.
For my generation is was mainly one teacher in primary school but
different teachers for different subjects in secondary school. We only
changed classroom if we had to go to labs: physics, chemistry and
biology or workshops: metalwork, woodwork, pottery and art. The girls
did cooking, pottery and art.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
NY
2021-07-24 19:58:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by NY
I'm trying to remember how old I was before teaching changed from same
teacher for everything, mostly in the same classroom, to different
teacher for each subject, mostly involving changes of classroom each
lesson. I think it was same teacher at my first school (infants and
juniors) until we moved to somewhere else, then different teachers once I
went to middle school and secondary school. But I believe some schools
continue same teacher and/or same classroom for a lot longer.
For my generation is was mainly one teacher in primary school but
different teachers for different subjects in secondary school. We only
changed classroom if we had to go to labs: physics, chemistry and biology
or workshops: metalwork, woodwork, pottery and art. The girls did cooking,
pottery and art.
My secondary schools (a private school and then after that a grammar school)
both had the system of different teachers and different rooms for most
lessons. That was from age 10 to 18, in the 70s and 80s. That was for all
lessons - not just things like sciences which needed a lab. Apart from
history (*) and physics/chemistry, there were no rooms that were dedicated
to subjects - no "if it's maths it'll be in Room 3". I *think* at the
private school there may have been very *slightly* more lessons in our
nominated form room than in other rooms, but it was it was a pretty marginal
difference.


(*) History was always taught in the "history lab" which had a little
"history preparation room" next to it as you'd get next to science labs. It
was in the days when corporal punishment was still allowed (though only
practiced rarely, and only by teachers, not prefects), so most teachers made
it know that they had a cane or trainer shoe (usually it was named and the
subject of fables and myths!) which they would threaten to use. The history
teacher would always threaten to "apply the staff of knowledge to the seat
of understanding". During lessons, while dictating notes to us, he would
disappear into his "history preparation room" and there would be little
swishing and thwacking noises, and occasionally murmurs of pleasure. To this
day I don't like to think what he was doing to himself with his cane, but he
usually had a grin on his face when he came out ;-)
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2021-07-24 21:13:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by NY
Post by Peter Johnson
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 14:31:31 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
I started primary school at 4
Apparently on my third birthday (1952) the doctor turned up and gave
my mother a note, which meant that I started at primary school the
next day. The reason was that I was the eldest of three, the youngest
being three weeks old, and he thought it would be a help to my mother
to be relieved from have to care for one of her children for a few
hours. Fortunately the school was at the bottom of the garden and
there was an access to it by next door's house. Don't know if such a
thing could happen these days.
Talking of unconventional things...
My dad got a lift to and from school each day with his teacher and
attended unofficially for a while before he started officially - the
reason... his mum (my grandma) was his teacher ;-)  I'm not sure whether
schools would put very young children in a class that was taught by a
parent, from the point of view of the child not being able to
distinguish at that age between the mother as a mother and the mother as
a teacher - that things which were possible at home were not possible at
school, and that he must obey the teacher without question - no "Oh,
Muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuum, do I *have* to?".
One of my wife's friends is a teacher at a secondary school and he and
his son were given a choice as to whether the father should or should
not teach his son - but that's for a boy who is about 14 years old. I'm
not sure what would have happened if the father had wanted to teach his
son but his son had wanted to be taught by anyone but his father ;-)
And of course by that age, different subjects are taught by different
teachers, so it's as if the parent has to teach the child for every
lesson five days a week.
I'm trying to remember how old I was before teaching changed from same
teacher for everything, mostly in the same classroom, to different
teacher for each subject, mostly involving changes of classroom each
lesson. I think it was same teacher at my first school (infants and
juniors) until we moved to somewhere else, then different teachers once
I went to middle school and secondary school. But I believe some schools
continue same teacher and/or same classroom for a lot longer.
For my generation is was mainly one teacher in primary school but
different teachers for different subjects in secondary school. We only
changed classroom if we had to go to labs: physics, chemistry and
biology or workshops: metalwork, woodwork, pottery and art. The girls
did cooking, pottery and art.
For us in secondary school the teachers had a room and the classes moved
around between the teachers' rooms.

Girls and boys alike did technology, woodwork, cooking and sewing, and IT
which progressed from BBC Master to Acorn A3000 to 286.

The only time the boys and girls divided was for sports.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2021-07-24 21:13:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Peter Johnson
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 14:31:31 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
I started primary school at 4
Apparently on my third birthday (1952) the doctor turned up and gave
my mother a note, which meant that I started at primary school the
next day. The reason was that I was the eldest of three, the youngest
being three weeks old, and he thought it would be a help to my mother
to be relieved from have to care for one of her children for a few
hours. Fortunately the school was at the bottom of the garden and
there was an access to it by next door's house. Don't know if such a
thing could happen these days.
Talking of unconventional things...
My dad got a lift to and from school each day with his teacher and attended
unofficially for a while before he started officially - the reason... his
mum (my grandma) was his teacher ;-) I'm not sure whether schools would put
very young children in a class that was taught by a parent, from the point
of view of the child not being able to distinguish at that age between the
mother as a mother and the mother as a teacher - that things which were
possible at home were not possible at school, and that he must obey the
teacher without question - no "Oh, Muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuum, do I *have* to?".
In my class as primary school was someone who's mum was the teacher of
Class 3 (which would have been 6-7yo).
Post by NY
One of my wife's friends is a teacher at a secondary school and he and his
son were given a choice as to whether the father should or should not teach
his son - but that's for a boy who is about 14 years old. I'm not sure what
would have happened if the father had wanted to teach his son but his son
had wanted to be taught by anyone but his father ;-) And of course by that
age, different subjects are taught by different teachers, so it's as if the
parent has to teach the child for every lesson five days a week.
I'm trying to remember how old I was before teaching changed from same
teacher for everything, mostly in the same classroom, to different teacher
for each subject, mostly involving changes of classroom each lesson. I think
it was same teacher at my first school (infants and juniors) until we moved
to somewhere else, then different teachers once I went to middle school and
secondary school. But I believe some schools continue same teacher and/or
same classroom for a lot longer.
For me it was at the move from primary school to secondary school (age 11)
and I think it was the biggest surprise about moving schools because nobody
had told us it was going to be different!


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Charles Ellson
2021-07-25 03:16:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@nqgf16xtrq.edu
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 09:59:55 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 08:57:04 -0000 (UTC)
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
place, and I asked the girl behind the bar something. She paused for a
couple of seconds because she had to remember how to respond in English.
She then sorry to me, as she primarily spoke Welsh and had to recall how
to say something in English.
It's not that she did not speak English, for she did. She just spoke it
so rarely in that community that she needed a little time to recall.
I had a friend at University from near Aberystwyth who hadn’t had to speak
English (as opposed to being exposed to it) until she went to primary
school. At University she studied Chinese and said it was still quite hard
work reading translations from Chinese into English and then mentally
having to translate them into Welsh.
Your friends parents should be ashamed of themselves. Could you imagine for
example anyone born in france being able to function without being able to
speak
Post by M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
French until aged 7?
7?!? 4.
Well 5 now, but it used to be 7. Regardless, not teaching your kids the
national language (and whether they like or not thats what english is) is
deliberately disadvantaging your child just to make a political point.
English is only one national language. Which version of it were you
referring to anyway?
Sam Wilson
2021-07-24 14:31:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@tre2odymdr.ac.uk
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 08:57:04 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
place, and I asked the girl behind the bar something. She paused for a
couple of seconds because she had to remember how to respond in English.
She then sorry to me, as she primarily spoke Welsh and had to recall how
to say something in English.
It's not that she did not speak English, for she did. She just spoke it
so rarely in that community that she needed a little time to recall.
I had a friend at University from near Aberystwyth who hadn’t had to speak
English (as opposed to being exposed to it) until she went to primary
school. At University she studied Chinese and said it was still quite hard
work reading translations from Chinese into English and then mentally
having to translate them into Welsh.
Your friends parents should be ashamed of themselves. Could you imagine for
example anyone born in france being able to function without being able to speak
French until aged 7?
I would not presume to pass judgement on people I never met, from an
environment I was never exposed to, 40ish years ago.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2021-07-24 10:10:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ian Jackson
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was
immediately changed to the ITV.
I sometimes get the feeling that North and South Wales are as divided as
say Yorkshire and Lancashire, despite both the later being in England.
Things may have changed now (eg with the arrival of the Welsh Government
etc), but growing up in on the North Wales coast in the '80s and '90s there
was definitely more of an affinity to north west England than to South
Wales. That may, of course, be because my parents and grandparents were
from Lancashire and Cheshire, and we lived in a predominantly
English-speaking area; perhaps a few miles inland there was less feeling of
such affinity, though I guess there wouldn't be much greater feeling of
connection to Cardiff!
We could only get Welsh TV; the 'local' news never covered places we'd
heard of, and the adverts on HTV never advertised places were were likely
to visit. My dad had a particularly low opinion of the Welsh TV news, "It's
all rape, pillage and plunder!". My gran lived a few miles down the road
and could get English TV.
At the time I don't even tho they were any direct north-south Wales trains
(change at Crewe or Birmingham).
Anna Noyd-Dryver
I have been in tiny villages in northern Wales, where English was most
definitely not the first language. I remember when I was in a pub in one
place, and I asked the girl behind the bar something. She paused for a
couple of seconds because she had to remember how to respond in English.
She then sorry to me, as she primarily spoke Welsh and had to recall how
to say something in English.
It's not that she did not speak English, for she did. She just spoke it
so rarely in that community that she needed a little time to recall.
I had a friend at University from near Aberystwyth who hadn’t had to speak
English (as opposed to being exposed to it) until she went to primary
school. At University she studied Chinese and said it was still quite hard
work reading translations from Chinese into English and then mentally
having to translate them into Welsh.
I've a friend I've known since she was 14. She'd been through the Welsh
language schools and it could be very difficult to teach her anything in
English when I first met her. Part of the problem is that she was
taught technical terms in Welsh but their English lessons didn't include
these same technical terms. Fortunately she's improved in adulthood so
the problem now rarely arises.

At 14 her ability to learn certain subjects in English was that of a
primary school child.
M***@nkw_nwgzaen5un30.info
2021-07-24 09:46:36 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 17:15:04 +0100
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
At the time I don't even tho they were any direct north-south Wales trains
(change at Crewe or Birmingham).
Anna Noyd-Dryver
I have been in tiny villages in northern Wales, where English was most
definitely not the first language. I remember when I was in a pub in one
place, and I asked the girl behind the bar something. She paused for a
couple of seconds because she had to remember how to respond in English.
She then sorry to me, as she primarily spoke Welsh and had to recall how
to say something in English.
It's not that she did not speak English, for she did. She just spoke it
so rarely in that community that she needed a little time to recall.
Did she only ever watch welsh TV or youtube and listen to welsh radio too? I
suspect more likely she was making a tedious point. But if some communities
want to be insular under the guise of cultural heritage thats up to them I
suppose but in breeding usually does for them in the end.
NY
2021-07-24 10:03:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@nkw_nwgzaen5un30.info
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 17:15:04 +0100
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
At the time I don't even tho they were any direct north-south Wales trains
(change at Crewe or Birmingham).
Anna Noyd-Dryver
I have been in tiny villages in northern Wales, where English was most
definitely not the first language. I remember when I was in a pub in one
place, and I asked the girl behind the bar something. She paused for a
couple of seconds because she had to remember how to respond in English.
She then sorry to me, as she primarily spoke Welsh and had to recall how
to say something in English.
It's not that she did not speak English, for she did. She just spoke it
so rarely in that community that she needed a little time to recall.
Did she only ever watch welsh TV or youtube and listen to welsh radio too? I
suspect more likely she was making a tedious point. But if some communities
want to be insular under the guise of cultural heritage thats up to them I
suppose but in breeding usually does for them in the end.
My feeling is that everyone in the UK should be able to speak/read/write
English to some extent, even if Welsh or Scots Gaelic or Cornish or (in the
case of immigrants) one of the Indian or Arabic languages is their first,
preferred language. Not being able to speak English makes you very insular,
because you can only converse with the people in your own part of the
country, or your own ethnic community.

I'm all in favour of people in Wales, northern Scotland and some of the
Indian/Pakistani areas of the UK (Bradford, Leicester) being raised
bilingual: English/Welsh, English/Gaelic etc. That's an asset. I'm not
trying to suppress the other languages, just that everyone should be able to
speak/understand the language that the vast majority of people in their
country speak.
M***@55jw03am9h6rl4mpb5t.edu
2021-07-24 10:21:51 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 11:03:25 +0100
Post by NY
Post by M***@nkw_nwgzaen5un30.info
Did she only ever watch welsh TV or youtube and listen to welsh radio too? I
suspect more likely she was making a tedious point. But if some communities
want to be insular under the guise of cultural heritage thats up to them I
suppose but in breeding usually does for them in the end.
My feeling is that everyone in the UK should be able to speak/read/write
English to some extent, even if Welsh or Scots Gaelic or Cornish or (in the
case of immigrants) one of the Indian or Arabic languages is their first,
preferred language. Not being able to speak English makes you very insular,
because you can only converse with the people in your own part of the
country, or your own ethnic community.
I'm all in favour of people in Wales, northern Scotland and some of the
Indian/Pakistani areas of the UK (Bradford, Leicester) being raised
bilingual: English/Welsh, English/Gaelic etc. That's an asset. I'm not
trying to suppress the other languages, just that everyone should be able to
speak/understand the language that the vast majority of people in their
country speak.
Quite, however at least 1st generation asian immigrants had the excuse that
they didn't know English that well. No adult in Wales or the Hebrides can say
that.
Arthur Figgis
2021-07-24 11:39:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@nkw_nwgzaen5un30.info
Did she only ever watch welsh TV or youtube and listen to welsh radio too?
Learning a language from YouTube videos could be risky. "What is the
best way of getting to the main station... or have the immigrants and
Soros and space lizards blocked the route?"
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Ian Jackson
2021-07-24 14:53:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@nkw_nwgzaen5un30.info
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 17:15:04 +0100
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
At the time I don't even tho they were any direct north-south Wales trains
(change at Crewe or Birmingham).
Anna Noyd-Dryver
I have been in tiny villages in northern Wales, where English was most
definitely not the first language. I remember when I was in a pub in one
place, and I asked the girl behind the bar something. She paused for a
couple of seconds because she had to remember how to respond in English.
She then sorry to me, as she primarily spoke Welsh and had to recall how
to say something in English.
It's not that she did not speak English, for she did. She just spoke it
so rarely in that community that she needed a little time to recall.
Did she only ever watch welsh TV or youtube and listen to welsh radio too? I
suspect more likely she was making a tedious point. But if some communities
want to be insular under the guise of cultural heritage thats up to them I
suppose but in breeding usually does for them in the end.
There are times when the ability to understand and speak a language is
not always symmetrical. When someone constantly hears (and even often
listens to) language A, but whose friends and community normally
communicate in language B, it's not uncommon for the person to be
perfectly 'fluent' in understanding A, but when it comes to speaking it
often struggles to find certain words - and even to get the grammar
right.

The same can apply even when only your native language is involved.
There are certainly many occasions when I listen to something with
absolutely no difficulty in understanding everything said, but if
speaking I would have difficulty trying to match the eloquent vocabulary
and phrasing.
--
Ian
Sam Wilson
2021-07-23 10:29:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by NY
What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke
embarrassingly  good English, thanked me for at least *trying* to
make myself understood  in German rather than just assuming that
they would know English.
I increasingly wonder whether trying to speak school/phrasebook
foreign is simply a waste of everyone's time, as they are almost
certainly going to speak pretty good English, with no risk of
misunderstandings or getting stuck in a dead end or them putting down
their "Handy" to ask an old person WTF a "Fernsprecher" is.
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign
languages is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be able
to understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what foreigners
are talking about among themselves. This is especially true in
certain situations when they don't realise that you can actually
understand a bit of what they're saying!
Can be handy in Cardiff!
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
And in the west. There’s a line just to the west of Swansea where Welsh
becomes more prevalent, though it disappears again in south Pembrokeshire.
Cardiff, being the capital, attracts a lot of incomers from Welsh speaking
parts, and a lot of people who are required to learn Welsh for jobs in
government or the media.
Post by Ian Jackson
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was immediately
changed to the ITV.
Not surprising. I used to have a colleague who lived in Port Talbot. He
said all the television aerials pointed south to pick up the English
Channel 4 rather than S4C.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Graeme Wall
2021-07-23 11:32:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by NY
What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke
embarrassingly  good English, thanked me for at least *trying* to
make myself understood  in German rather than just assuming that
they would know English.
I increasingly wonder whether trying to speak school/phrasebook
foreign is simply a waste of everyone's time, as they are almost
certainly going to speak pretty good English, with no risk of
misunderstandings or getting stuck in a dead end or them putting down
their "Handy" to ask an old person WTF a "Fernsprecher" is.
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign
languages is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be able
to understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what foreigners
are talking about among themselves. This is especially true in
certain situations when they don't realise that you can actually
understand a bit of what they're saying!
Can be handy in Cardiff!
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
And in the west. There’s a line just to the west of Swansea where Welsh
becomes more prevalent, though it disappears again in south Pembrokeshire.
Cardiff, being the capital, attracts a lot of incomers from Welsh speaking
parts, and a lot of people who are required to learn Welsh for jobs in
government or the media.
Post by Ian Jackson
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was immediately
changed to the ITV.
Not surprising. I used to have a colleague who lived in Port Talbot. He
said all the television aerials pointed south to pick up the English
Channel 4 rather than S4C.
That could be as much to do with the topography as the language.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Ian Jackson
2021-07-23 12:45:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by NY
What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke
embarrassingly  good English, thanked me for at least *trying* to
make myself understood  in German rather than just assuming that
they would know English.
I increasingly wonder whether trying to speak school/phrasebook
foreign is simply a waste of everyone's time, as they are almost
certainly going to speak pretty good English, with no risk of
misunderstandings or getting stuck in a dead end or them putting down
their "Handy" to ask an old person WTF a "Fernsprecher" is.
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign
languages is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be able
to understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what foreigners
are talking about among themselves. This is especially true in
certain situations when they don't realise that you can actually
understand a bit of what they're saying!
Can be handy in Cardiff!
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
And in the west. There’s a line just to the west of Swansea where Welsh
becomes more prevalent, though it disappears again in south Pembrokeshire.
Cardiff, being the capital, attracts a lot of incomers from Welsh speaking
parts, and a lot of people who are required to learn Welsh for jobs in
government or the media.
Post by Ian Jackson
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was immediately
changed to the ITV.
Not surprising. I used to have a colleague who lived in Port Talbot. He
said all the television aerials pointed south to pick up the English
Channel 4 rather than S4C.
That could be as much to do with the topography as the language.
The Wenvoe transmitter is only a stone's-throw from Port Talbot, so
generally reception will be good. They were probably trying to get
Mendip (Somerset), which reaches PT.

I once played a small part in the installation a low-power fill-in
station near Welshpool. Even though that's northern Wales, several of
the locals were rather dismayed that it would be giving them the Welsh
programmes, and not the English.
--
Ian
Sam Wilson
2021-07-24 08:57:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by NY
What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke
embarrassingly  good English, thanked me for at least *trying* to
make myself understood  in German rather than just assuming that
they would know English.
I increasingly wonder whether trying to speak school/phrasebook
foreign is simply a waste of everyone's time, as they are almost
certainly going to speak pretty good English, with no risk of
misunderstandings or getting stuck in a dead end or them putting down
their "Handy" to ask an old person WTF a "Fernsprecher" is.
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign
languages is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be able
to understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what foreigners
are talking about among themselves. This is especially true in
certain situations when they don't realise that you can actually
understand a bit of what they're saying!
Can be handy in Cardiff!
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
And in the west. There’s a line just to the west of Swansea where Welsh
becomes more prevalent, though it disappears again in south Pembrokeshire.
Cardiff, being the capital, attracts a lot of incomers from Welsh speaking
parts, and a lot of people who are required to learn Welsh for jobs in
government or the media.
Post by Ian Jackson
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was immediately
changed to the ITV.
Not surprising. I used to have a colleague who lived in Port Talbot. He
said all the television aerials pointed south to pick up the English
Channel 4 rather than S4C.
That could be as much to do with the topography as the language.
The Wenvoe transmitter is only a stone's-throw from Port Talbot, so
generally reception will be good. They were probably trying to get
Mendip (Somerset), which reaches PT.
I think that’s right. IIRC (and it’s pretty hazy, now) he said people
started doing it when Ch4/S4C started.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Marland
2021-07-24 16:12:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by NY
What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke
embarrassingly  good English, thanked me for at least *trying* to
make myself understood  in German rather than just assuming that
they would know English.
I increasingly wonder whether trying to speak school/phrasebook
foreign is simply a waste of everyone's time, as they are almost
certainly going to speak pretty good English, with no risk of
misunderstandings or getting stuck in a dead end or them putting down
their "Handy" to ask an old person WTF a "Fernsprecher" is.
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign
languages is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be able
to understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what foreigners
are talking about among themselves. This is especially true in
certain situations when they don't realise that you can actually
understand a bit of what they're saying!
Can be handy in Cardiff!
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was immediately
changed to the ITV.
Until another transmitter was installed a good part of North Devon where I
grew up got its programming from Wales, the ITV contractor was then TWW
whose full title was Television Wales and the West . It was known more
often by the nickname Telliwelly Wales.
There was as an ITV contractor for North Wales aimed at Welsh speakers
whose Welsh name was
Teledu Cymru but unlike most ITV franchises in the early sixties which were
reasonably profitable it failed ,TWW took it over and retained the name for
a while for their North Wales output.

Now without cheating who knows what links an ITV company and a famous GWR
Loco.

GH
Graeme Wall
2021-07-24 16:52:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by NY
What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke
embarrassingly  good English, thanked me for at least *trying* to
make myself understood  in German rather than just assuming that
they would know English.
I increasingly wonder whether trying to speak school/phrasebook
foreign is simply a waste of everyone's time, as they are almost
certainly going to speak pretty good English, with no risk of
misunderstandings or getting stuck in a dead end or them putting down
their "Handy" to ask an old person WTF a "Fernsprecher" is.
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign
languages is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be able
to understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what foreigners
are talking about among themselves. This is especially true in
certain situations when they don't realise that you can actually
understand a bit of what they're saying!
Can be handy in Cardiff!
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was immediately
changed to the ITV.
Until another transmitter was installed a good part of North Devon where I
grew up got its programming from Wales, the ITV contractor was then TWW
whose full title was Television Wales and the West . It was known more
often by the nickname Telliwelly Wales.
There was as an ITV contractor for North Wales aimed at Welsh speakers
whose Welsh name was
Teledu Cymru but unlike most ITV franchises in the early sixties which were
reasonably profitable it failed ,TWW took it over and retained the name for
a while for their North Wales output.
Now without cheating who knows what links an ITV company and a famous GWR
Loco.
The Flockton Flyer? Not that an individual pannier tank is that famous.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Marland
2021-07-24 22:33:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Marland
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by NY
What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke
embarrassingly  good English, thanked me for at least *trying* to
make myself understood  in German rather than just assuming that
they would know English.
I increasingly wonder whether trying to speak school/phrasebook
foreign is simply a waste of everyone's time, as they are almost
certainly going to speak pretty good English, with no risk of
misunderstandings or getting stuck in a dead end or them putting down
their "Handy" to ask an old person WTF a "Fernsprecher" is.
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign
languages is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be able
to understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what foreigners
are talking about among themselves. This is especially true in
certain situations when they don't realise that you can actually
understand a bit of what they're saying!
Can be handy in Cardiff!
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was immediately
changed to the ITV.
Until another transmitter was installed a good part of North Devon where I
grew up got its programming from Wales, the ITV contractor was then TWW
whose full title was Television Wales and the West . It was known more
often by the nickname Telliwelly Wales.
There was as an ITV contractor for North Wales aimed at Welsh speakers
whose Welsh name was
Teledu Cymru but unlike most ITV franchises in the early sixties which were
reasonably profitable it failed ,TWW took it over and retained the name for
a while for their North Wales output.
Now without cheating who knows what links an ITV company and a famous GWR
Loco.
The Flockton Flyer? Not that an individual pannier tank is that famous.
The answer is City of Truro which in the late 50’s early 60’s had been
extracted from being a static museum exhibit and put back into running
order.
Westward TV chartered the Loco and an exhibition train to publicise its
inauguration which left London and then over several days toured the
service area of the new franchise which took the Loco to many places it
had never been to before including a good number of the former LSWR/
Southern routes which it would never have had cause to travel over in its
early days.

This thread on a modellers site is a reasonable agglomeration of info about
the train.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128843-westward-exhibition-train-converted-from-gwr-siphon-gs/

GH
Graeme Wall
2021-07-25 07:23:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Marland
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by NY
What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke
embarrassingly  good English, thanked me for at least *trying* to
make myself understood  in German rather than just assuming that
they would know English.
I increasingly wonder whether trying to speak school/phrasebook
foreign is simply a waste of everyone's time, as they are almost
certainly going to speak pretty good English, with no risk of
misunderstandings or getting stuck in a dead end or them putting down
their "Handy" to ask an old person WTF a "Fernsprecher" is.
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign
languages is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be able
to understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what foreigners
are talking about among themselves. This is especially true in
certain situations when they don't realise that you can actually
understand a bit of what they're saying!
Can be handy in Cardiff!
Isn't it 'oop North Wales' where Welsh is most prevalent?
About 40 rears ago, I well recall being in a pub in Treochy. They had
the TV on. A programme ended, and the one that followed was in Welsh
("This is BBC Wales - Telliwelli Cymru", or something like that). There
was a loud chorus of "Oh bloody hell!!", and the channel was immediately
changed to the ITV.
Until another transmitter was installed a good part of North Devon where I
grew up got its programming from Wales, the ITV contractor was then TWW
whose full title was Television Wales and the West . It was known more
often by the nickname Telliwelly Wales.
There was as an ITV contractor for North Wales aimed at Welsh speakers
whose Welsh name was
Teledu Cymru but unlike most ITV franchises in the early sixties which were
reasonably profitable it failed ,TWW took it over and retained the name for
a while for their North Wales output.
Now without cheating who knows what links an ITV company and a famous GWR
Loco.
The Flockton Flyer? Not that an individual pannier tank is that famous.
The answer is City of Truro which in the late 50’s early 60’s had been
extracted from being a static museum exhibit and put back into running
order.
Westward TV chartered the Loco and an exhibition train to publicise its
inauguration which left London and then over several days toured the
service area of the new franchise which took the Loco to many places it
had never been to before including a good number of the former LSWR/
Southern routes which it would never have had cause to travel over in its
early days.
This thread on a modellers site is a reasonable agglomeration of info about
the train.
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128843-westward-exhibition-train-converted-from-gwr-siphon-gs/
Thanks, I never knew that.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Adrian
2021-07-24 17:26:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Now without cheating who knows what links an ITV company and a famous GWR
Loco.
Harlech Castle ?

Adrian
--
To Reply :
replace "bulleid" with "adrian" - all mail to bulleid is rejected
Sorry for the rigmarole, If I want spam, I'll go to the shops
Every time someone says "I don't believe in trolls", another one dies.
Arthur Figgis
2021-07-23 18:18:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign languages
is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be able to
understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what foreigners are
talking about among themselves.
Although if the foreigners are from multiple countries, there is a good
chance they will be speaking English to each other anyway...

It feels a bit weird in places like Vilnius or L'viv or Cesky Krumlov to
be clutching a phrase book or fiddling with an app while the locals all
speak English to the Germans and Scandinavians and Chinese.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Ian Jackson
2021-07-23 19:46:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Ian Jackson
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign
languages is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be able
to understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what foreigners
are talking about among themselves.
Although if the foreigners are from multiple countries, there is a good
chance they will be speaking English to each other anyway...
While I agree that English is usually the lingua franca, that's not what
I'm talking about.
Post by Arthur Figgis
It feels a bit weird in places like Vilnius or L'viv or Cesky Krumlov
to be clutching a phrase book or fiddling with an app while the locals
all speak English to the Germans and Scandinavians and Chinese.
When abroad (especially on business) it's often difficult for an
English-speaker to make much use of whatever language they have of the
country they're visiting (even if they are fairly fluent). The people
you come in contact with or work with usually speak English as well as
you do, and it's inefficient and a waste of their time for them to try
and understand your faltering 'foreign'. Often your 'foreign' only comes
in useful when there some emergency (like when you want a beer in a
remote village pub, or desperately need the toilet).
--
Ian
Graeme Wall
2021-07-23 20:23:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Ian Jackson
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign
languages  is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be
able to  understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what
foreigners are  talking about among themselves.
Although if the foreigners are from multiple countries, there is a
good chance they will be speaking English to each other anyway...
While I agree that English is usually the lingua franca, that's not what
I'm talking about.
Post by Arthur Figgis
It feels a bit weird in places like Vilnius or L'viv or Cesky Krumlov
to be clutching a phrase book or fiddling with an app while the locals
all speak English to the Germans and Scandinavians and Chinese.
When abroad (especially on business) it's often difficult for an
English-speaker to make much use of whatever language they have of the
country they're visiting (even if they are fairly fluent). The people
you come in contact with or work with usually speak English as well as
you do, and it's inefficient and a waste of their time for them to try
and understand your faltering 'foreign'. Often your 'foreign' only comes
in useful when there some emergency (like when you want a beer in a
remote village pub, or desperately need the toilet).
Very few parts of Europe, even Spain, don't recognise the word beer!
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Jeremy Double
2021-07-23 20:49:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Ian Jackson
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign
languages  is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be
able to  understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what
foreigners are  talking about among themselves.
Although if the foreigners are from multiple countries, there is a
good chance they will be speaking English to each other anyway...
While I agree that English is usually the lingua franca, that's not what
I'm talking about.
Post by Arthur Figgis
It feels a bit weird in places like Vilnius or L'viv or Cesky Krumlov
to be clutching a phrase book or fiddling with an app while the locals
all speak English to the Germans and Scandinavians and Chinese.
When abroad (especially on business) it's often difficult for an
English-speaker to make much use of whatever language they have of the
country they're visiting (even if they are fairly fluent). The people
you come in contact with or work with usually speak English as well as
you do, and it's inefficient and a waste of their time for them to try
and understand your faltering 'foreign'. Often your 'foreign' only comes
in useful when there some emergency (like when you want a beer in a
remote village pub, or desperately need the toilet).
Very few parts of Europe, even Spain, don't recognise the word beer!
OTOH, “beer” is one of the words that I know in quite a few different
languages, if fact it’s one of the very few words that I can translate into
Slavic languages like Czech… I even know the word for brewery in Czech.

And I gave up drinking alcohol several years ago…

I’ve found that if you have particular requirements, then it’s useful to
know the local word. So for instance, I know the German for “decaf”, and
the Austrian equivalent (which is different from standard German).
--
Jeremy Double
Bryan Morris
2021-07-24 14:48:57 UTC
Permalink
In message
Post by Jeremy Double
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Ian Jackson
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign
languages  is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be
able to  understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what
foreigners are  talking about among themselves.
Although if the foreigners are from multiple countries, there is a
good chance they will be speaking English to each other anyway...
While I agree that English is usually the lingua franca, that's not what
I'm talking about.
Post by Arthur Figgis
It feels a bit weird in places like Vilnius or L'viv or Cesky Krumlov
to be clutching a phrase book or fiddling with an app while the locals
all speak English to the Germans and Scandinavians and Chinese.
When abroad (especially on business) it's often difficult for an
English-speaker to make much use of whatever language they have of the
country they're visiting (even if they are fairly fluent). The people
you come in contact with or work with usually speak English as well as
you do, and it's inefficient and a waste of their time for them to try
and understand your faltering 'foreign'. Often your 'foreign' only comes
in useful when there some emergency (like when you want a beer in a
remote village pub, or desperately need the toilet).
Very few parts of Europe, even Spain, don't recognise the word beer!
OTOH, “beer” is one of the words that I know in quite a few different
languages, if fact it’s one of the very few words that I can translate into
Slavic languages like Czech… I even know the word for brewery in Czech.
Gave up ordering the aperitif Byrrh (rolling my Rs correctly) when they
insisted in serving me Biere

Bryan Morris
tim...
2021-07-24 15:41:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bryan Morris
In message
Post by Jeremy Double
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Ian Jackson
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign
languages is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be
able to understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what
foreigners are talking about among themselves.
Although if the foreigners are from multiple countries, there is a
good chance they will be speaking English to each other anyway...
While I agree that English is usually the lingua franca, that's not what
I'm talking about.
Post by Arthur Figgis
It feels a bit weird in places like Vilnius or L'viv or Cesky Krumlov
to be clutching a phrase book or fiddling with an app while the locals
all speak English to the Germans and Scandinavians and Chinese.
When abroad (especially on business) it's often difficult for an
English-speaker to make much use of whatever language they have of the
country they're visiting (even if they are fairly fluent). The people
you come in contact with or work with usually speak English as well as
you do, and it's inefficient and a waste of their time for them to try
and understand your faltering 'foreign'. Often your 'foreign' only comes
in useful when there some emergency (like when you want a beer in a
remote village pub, or desperately need the toilet).
Very few parts of Europe, even Spain, don't recognise the word beer!
OTOH, “beer” is one of the words that I know in quite a few different
languages, if fact it’s one of the very few words that I can translate into
Slavic languages like Czech… I even know the word for brewery in Czech.
Gave up ordering the aperitif Byrrh (rolling my Rs correctly) when they
insisted in serving me Biere
I'm missing something here

the Czech (slavic) for beer is Pivo
Bryan Morris
2021-07-24 17:59:30 UTC
Permalink
In message <sdhcba$vtk$***@dont-email.me>, tim... <***@gmail.com>
writes
Post by tim...
Post by Bryan Morris
In message
Post by Jeremy Double
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Ian Jackson
One of the main advantages of having some knowledge of foreign
languages is not to be able to speak them, but rather it's to be
able to understand (or at least get some of the gist of) what
foreigners are talking about among themselves.
Although if the foreigners are from multiple countries, there is a
good chance they will be speaking English to each other anyway...
While I agree that English is usually the lingua franca, that's
not what
I'm talking about.
Post by Arthur Figgis
It feels a bit weird in places like Vilnius or L'viv or Cesky Krumlov
to be clutching a phrase book or fiddling with an app while the locals
all speak English to the Germans and Scandinavians and Chinese.
When abroad (especially on business) it's often difficult for an
English-speaker to make much use of whatever language they have of the
country they're visiting (even if they are fairly fluent). The people
you come in contact with or work with usually speak English as well as
you do, and it's inefficient and a waste of their time for them to try
and understand your faltering 'foreign'. Often your 'foreign' only comes
in useful when there some emergency (like when you want a beer in a
remote village pub, or desperately need the toilet).
Very few parts of Europe, even Spain, don't recognise the word beer!
OTOH, “beer” is one of the words that I know in quite a few different
languages, if fact it’s one of the very few words that I can translate into
Slavic languages like Czech… I even know the word for brewery in Czech.
Gave up ordering the aperitif Byrrh (rolling my Rs correctly) when
they insisted in serving me Biere
I'm missing something here
the Czech (slavic) for beer is Pivo
I like the French aperitif called Byrrh. A couple of times I ordered
this in France, they served me a glass of beer as, I assume, they
thought I was ordering biere in English (I forgot, above, to say I was
in France)

Geddit now?
--
Bryan Morris
Arthur Figgis
2021-07-24 16:38:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeremy Double
OTOH, “beer” is one of the words that I know in quite a few different
languages, if fact it’s one of the very few words that I can translate into
Slavic languages like Czech…
Are there any Slavic languages were it isn't Pivo or something similar
enough to Pivo to get by?
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Arthur Figgis
2021-07-24 11:41:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
When abroad (especially on business) it's often difficult for an
English-speaker to make much use of whatever language they have of the
country they're visiting (even if they are fairly fluent). The people
you come in contact with or work with usually speak English as well as
you do, and it's inefficient and a waste of their time for them to try
and understand your faltering 'foreign'. Often your 'foreign' only comes
in useful when there some emergency (like when you want a beer in a
remote village pub, or desperately need the toilet).
Exactly.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
M***@u9qn7jjpd.gov.uk
2021-07-22 09:12:32 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 22:12:16 +0100
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by NY
What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke embarrassingly
good English, thanked me for at least *trying* to make myself understood
in German rather than just assuming that they would know English.
I increasingly wonder whether trying to speak school/phrasebook foreign
is simply a waste of everyone's time, as they are almost certainly going
to speak pretty good English, with no risk of misunderstandings or
getting stuck in a dead end or them putting down their "Handy" to ask an
old person WTF a "Fernsprecher" is.
Whatever the reason, the teaching of languages in UK schools is abysmal.
Last term my young daughter had french lessons at primary school and quickly
picked up a few words and tried speaking it. 3 weeks later it all stopped
and they haven't had any lessons since and now she's forgotten most of it.
Instead they seem to spend a large proportion of the school day watching
cartoons and messing about with paints. Very useful.
Mark Goodge
2021-07-22 14:39:47 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 22:12:16 +0100, Arthur Figgis
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by NY
What I did notice was how many German people, who spoke embarrassingly
good English, thanked me for at least *trying* to make myself understood
in German rather than just assuming that they would know English.
I increasingly wonder whether trying to speak school/phrasebook foreign
is simply a waste of everyone's time, as they are almost certainly going
to speak pretty good English, with no risk of misunderstandings or
getting stuck in a dead end or them putting down their "Handy" to ask an
old person WTF a "Fernsprecher" is.
The most valuable part of basic/phrasebook foreign language competency
is not so much speaking it, as reading it. And, less so now that most
shops use electronic tills with the numbers displayed (and you're
probably paying by card anyway), but still helpful on occasions, is
being able to understand how much money you are being asked for without
needing them to repeat it in English.

Mark
Arthur Figgis
2021-07-23 18:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
The most valuable part of basic/phrasebook foreign language competency
is not so much speaking it, as reading it. And, less so now that most
shops use electronic tills with the numbers displayed (and you're
probably paying by card anyway), but still helpful on occasions, is
being able to understand how much money you are being asked for without
needing them to repeat it in English.
In the past I found that people tended to write down prices on a scrap
of paper, if there wasn't a screen or whatever showing it. I suspect
dealing with people who don't speak the lingo was less rare than in Britain.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2021-07-23 20:16:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Mark Goodge
The most valuable part of basic/phrasebook foreign language competency
is not so much speaking it, as reading it. And, less so now that most
shops use electronic tills with the numbers displayed (and you're
probably paying by card anyway), but still helpful on occasions, is
being able to understand how much money you are being asked for without
needing them to repeat it in English.
In the past I found that people tended to write down prices on a scrap
of paper, if there wasn't a screen or whatever showing it. I suspect
dealing with people who don't speak the lingo was less rare than in Britain.
The only place so far that I've had to resort to that was buying petrol
from a non-self-service filling station in Japan.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Mark Goodge
2021-07-23 21:03:33 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 19:24:35 +0100, Arthur Figgis
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Mark Goodge
The most valuable part of basic/phrasebook foreign language competency
is not so much speaking it, as reading it. And, less so now that most
shops use electronic tills with the numbers displayed (and you're
probably paying by card anyway), but still helpful on occasions, is
being able to understand how much money you are being asked for without
needing them to repeat it in English.
In the past I found that people tended to write down prices on a scrap
of paper, if there wasn't a screen or whatever showing it. I suspect
dealing with people who don't speak the lingo was less rare than in Britain.
Yes, but that still takes additional time, and requires them to do
something special for you. I prefer to be able to conduct normal,
everyday transactions without needing any particular alterations from
the routine, either on my part or the person I'm dealing with.

At home, I live just round the corner from my town's "Little Poland".
There's one particular shop there that I use quite regularly, because
they sell a lot of Eastern European stuff (specifically, ham and
sausages) that I like as well as normal corner shop staples such as
bread and milk. I always feel that I've succeeded in blending in if the
checkout operator addresses me in Polish.

Mark
Arthur Figgis
2021-07-24 11:46:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 19:24:35 +0100, Arthur Figgis
Post by Arthur Figgis
In the past I found that people tended to write down prices on a scrap
of paper, if there wasn't a screen or whatever showing it. I suspect
dealing with people who don't speak the lingo was less rare than in Britain.
Yes, but that still takes additional time, and requires them to do
something special for you.
In my experience loads of shops had a paper and pen by the till anyway,
or a calculator with a big screen which they would type the total into
and then hold up for you to see.


I prefer to be able to conduct normal,
Post by Mark Goodge
everyday transactions without needing any particular alterations from
the routine, either on my part or the person I'm dealing with.
Ideally; but I'm not the kind of person who won't go somewhere in case a
French person gives me number beyond 79 or something.
Post by Mark Goodge
At home, I live just round the corner from my town's "Little Poland".
There's one particular shop there that I use quite regularly, because
they sell a lot of Eastern European stuff (specifically, ham and
sausages) that I like as well as normal corner shop staples such as
bread and milk. I always feel that I've succeeded in blending in if the
checkout operator addresses me in Polish.
The one near me is such a bizarre mix of countries
(Polish-Persian-Romanian etc) it wouldn't really work.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2021-07-24 12:58:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Mark Goodge
At home, I live just round the corner from my town's "Little Poland".
There's one particular shop there that I use quite regularly, because
they sell a lot of Eastern European stuff (specifically, ham and
sausages) that I like as well as normal corner shop staples such as
bread and milk. I always feel that I've succeeded in blending in if the
checkout operator addresses me in Polish.
The one near me is such a bizarre mix of countries
(Polish-Persian-Romanian etc) it wouldn't really work.
I guess it depends who it's run by, and who it serves because there's also
unserved demand.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
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