Discussion:
Thameslink returns to the Tube Map
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Recliner
2020-12-16 10:41:27 UTC
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Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
the extended zones. So the map now features over 500 stations:


s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
2020-12-16 11:18:18 UTC
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On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 10:41:27 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
If they're going to include Thameslink they'll have to include Great Northern
too to be consistent. I suspect it'll be a very busy map.
Recliner
2020-12-16 12:38:29 UTC
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Post by s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 10:41:27 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
If they're going to include Thameslink they'll have to include Great Northern
too to be consistent. I suspect it'll be a very busy map.
Yup, and even the TL addition is only for a 12-month trial period. One reason for it is because of the pending Northern
Line closures through Bank.
Basil Jet
2020-12-16 17:50:32 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-latest-tube-map/

They've left Hadley Wood off, despite it being in Zone 6.

The kink in the Thameslink Line between City TL and the junction north
of St Pancras seems inexplicable.

The Bakerloo Line shouldn't enter Elephant at the same angle that the
Denmark Hill branch leaves.

Maidenhead and Reading are still portrayed north of the Thames!
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
U2 - 2004 - How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb
Roland Perry
2020-12-16 19:58:50 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-la
test-tube-map/
They've left Hadley Wood off, despite it being in Zone 6.
The kink in the Thameslink Line between City TL and the junction north
of St Pancras seems inexplicable.
How else would you get round all the other blobs at KGX/StP? Especially
as the line in fact runs to the west.
--
Roland Perry
Basil Jet
2020-12-16 20:10:23 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-la
test-tube-map/
Test tube map?
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
U2 - 2004 - How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb
Recliner
2020-12-16 21:59:14 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-la
test-tube-map/
Test tube map?
No, it seems to be the final one. Here's another example:
<https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpWi6-7W4AMpwqv?format=jpg&name=large>

Neil has suggested that the GN Moorgate line should also be added, and I
agree, but it would be hard to squeeze it in.
Roland Perry
2020-12-17 06:52:10 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-la
test-tube-map/
Test tube map?
<https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpWi6-7W4AMpwqv?format=jpg&name=large>
Neil has suggested that the GN Moorgate line should also be added, and I
agree, but it would be hard to squeeze it in.
Looks like it would easily fit between Finsbury Park and Moorgate, but
not much space for the Hertford Loop.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2020-12-17 09:35:26 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-la
test-tube-map/
Test tube map?
<https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpWi6-7W4AMpwqv?format=jpg&name=large>
Neil has suggested that the GN Moorgate line should also be added, and I
agree, but it would be hard to squeeze it in.
Looks like it would easily fit between Finsbury Park and Moorgate, but
not much space for the Hertford Loop.
I was thinking of the problems of showing and labelling the inner London
stations, while keeping the line reasonably straight.
s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
2020-12-17 10:28:03 UTC
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On Thu, 17 Dec 2020 09:35:26 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-la
test-tube-map/
Test tube map?
<https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpWi6-7W4AMpwqv?format=jpg&name=large>
Neil has suggested that the GN Moorgate line should also be added, and I
agree, but it would be hard to squeeze it in.
Looks like it would easily fit between Finsbury Park and Moorgate, but
not much space for the Hertford Loop.
I was thinking of the problems of showing and labelling the inner London
stations, while keeping the line reasonably straight.
Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.
Roland Perry
2020-12-17 10:45:52 UTC
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Post by s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
On Thu, 17 Dec 2020 09:35:26 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-la
test-tube-map/
Test tube map?
<https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpWi6-7W4AMpwqv?format=jpg&name=large>
Neil has suggested that the GN Moorgate line should also be added, and I
agree, but it would be hard to squeeze it in.
Looks like it would easily fit between Finsbury Park and Moorgate, but
not much space for the Hertford Loop.
I was thinking of the problems of showing and labelling the inner London
stations, while keeping the line reasonably straight.
Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.
I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon
(etc) National Rail routes.
--
Roland Perry
NY
2020-12-17 11:06:01 UTC
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Post by s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.
I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon (etc)
National Rail routes.
I'm not sure where one should draw the line (pun *not* intended!) between
which lines to include and which to omit.

You could be strict and only include traditional London Underground lines,
and exclude Thameslink and London Overground (since those were traditionally
British Rail / Network Rail).

You could additionally include London Overground. You could include GOBLIN,
North London Line and Thameslink and Finsbury Park to Moorgate. But should
you go further and include a selection of other Network Rail services?

When FP-Moorgate was first transferred to British Rail, it was included as a
courtesy service on Underground maps, maybe because until 1976 it had been a
tube line (though not a very useful one in its final days, because there was
a gap between Old Street as the northern terminus of the Moorgate line and
BR services that called at FP).

I suppose the criterion for inclusion might be whether a typical ticket for
use on the Underground would or wouldn't allow you to use a non-Underground
line that called at stations within the zones that your ticket covers. I
don't know much about Oyster and tickets bought at Underground stations
because whenever I went up to London I bought a Day Rover (Capitalcard)
ticket which covered me for my return journey into London and then unlimited
use of Underground and NR trains within the Greater London area (maybe out
to Zone 9 on the new map that is being discussed) - so I was a bit pampered
in automatically having an all-zones ticket. It's also a good 10 or more
years since I've been to London...
Rolf Mantel
2020-12-17 11:22:31 UTC
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Post by NY
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.
I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon
(etc) National Rail routes.
I'm not sure where one should draw the line (pun *not* intended!)
between which lines to include and which to omit.
[..]
Post by NY
I suppose the criterion for inclusion might be whether a typical ticket
for use on the Underground would or wouldn't allow you to use a
non-Underground line that called at stations within the zones that your
ticket covers.
As a London tourist, I would have drawn the line at a service frequency
as well: There should be a minimum of 6 tph (maximum 10 minutes waiting
time) during daytime for the line to serve a meaningful purpose as a
local connection.
Recliner
2020-12-17 11:26:43 UTC
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Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by NY
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.
I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon
(etc) National Rail routes.
I'm not sure where one should draw the line (pun *not* intended!)
between which lines to include and which to omit.
[..]
Post by NY
I suppose the criterion for inclusion might be whether a typical ticket
for use on the Underground would or wouldn't allow you to use a
non-Underground line that called at stations within the zones that your
ticket covers.
As a London tourist, I would have drawn the line at a service frequency
as well: There should be a minimum of 6 tph (maximum 10 minutes waiting
time) during daytime for the line to serve a meaningful purpose as a
local connection.
That would exclude some Overground and even a few Tube lines.
Roland Perry
2020-12-17 12:35:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rolf Mantel
Post by NY
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.
I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon
(etc) National Rail routes.
I'm not sure where one should draw the line (pun *not* intended!)
between which lines to include and which to omit.
[..]
Post by NY
I suppose the criterion for inclusion might be whether a typical
ticket for use on the Underground would or wouldn't allow you to use
a non-Underground line that called at stations within the zones that
your ticket covers.
As a London tourist, I would have drawn the line at a service frequency
as well: There should be a minimum of 6 tph (maximum 10 minutes waiting
time) during daytime for the line to serve a meaningful purpose as a
local connection.
Would you exclude TfL Tube [subsurface] lines which didn't comply with
that frequency?
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2020-12-17 11:24:49 UTC
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Permalink
Post by NY
Post by s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.
I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon (etc)
National Rail routes.
I'm not sure where one should draw the line (pun *not* intended!) between
which lines to include and which to omit.
You could be strict and only include traditional London Underground lines,
and exclude Thameslink and London Overground (since those were traditionally
British Rail / Network Rail).
You could additionally include London Overground. You could include GOBLIN,
North London Line and Thameslink and Finsbury Park to Moorgate. But should
you go further and include a selection of other Network Rail services?
Until now, TfL has only covered TfL services. So it includes the
all-important Danglebahn and TfL services to Reading and Shenfield, but not
the Moorgate GN line or SN services to East Croydon (which gives the
impression of just being a tram stop with an NR connection, just like
Birkbeck. There's no clue that Clapham Junction has frequent direct
connections to Victoria and Waterloo, or that there's a direct line between
Marylebone and West Ruislip.
Post by NY
When FP-Moorgate was first transferred to British Rail, it was included as a
courtesy service on Underground maps, maybe because until 1976 it had been a
tube line (though not a very useful one in its final days, because there was
a gap between Old Street as the northern terminus of the Moorgate line and
BR services that called at FP).
I suppose the criterion for inclusion might be whether a typical ticket for
use on the Underground would or wouldn't allow you to use a non-Underground
line that called at stations within the zones that your ticket covers. I
don't know much about Oyster and tickets bought at Underground stations
because whenever I went up to London I bought a Day Rover (Capitalcard)
ticket which covered me for my return journey into London and then unlimited
use of Underground and NR trains within the Greater London area (maybe out
to Zone 9 on the new map that is being discussed) - so I was a bit pampered
in automatically having an all-zones ticket. It's also a good 10 or more
years since I've been to London...
Oyster covers the same lines as a Travelcard. So all the suburban NR lines
and stations are included.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2020-12-18 06:19:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by NY
Post by s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.
I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon (etc)
National Rail routes.
I'm not sure where one should draw the line (pun *not* intended!) between
which lines to include and which to omit.
You could be strict and only include traditional London Underground lines,
and exclude Thameslink and London Overground (since those were traditionally
British Rail / Network Rail).
You could additionally include London Overground. You could include GOBLIN,
North London Line and Thameslink and Finsbury Park to Moorgate. But should
you go further and include a selection of other Network Rail services?
Until now, TfL has only covered TfL services. So it includes the
all-important Danglebahn and TfL services to Reading and Shenfield, but not
the Moorgate GN line or SN services to East Croydon (which gives the
impression of just being a tram stop with an NR connection, just like
Birkbeck. There's no clue that Clapham Junction has frequent direct
connections to Victoria and Waterloo, or that there's a direct line between
Marylebone and West Ruislip.
You need the London Connections map for that
<http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf>


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Roland Perry
2020-12-18 06:44:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Recliner
Post by NY
Post by s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.
I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon (etc)
National Rail routes.
I'm not sure where one should draw the line (pun *not* intended!) between
which lines to include and which to omit.
You could be strict and only include traditional London Underground lines,
and exclude Thameslink and London Overground (since those were traditionally
British Rail / Network Rail).
You could additionally include London Overground. You could include GOBLIN,
North London Line and Thameslink and Finsbury Park to Moorgate. But should
you go further and include a selection of other Network Rail services?
Until now, TfL has only covered TfL services. So it includes the
all-important Danglebahn and TfL services to Reading and Shenfield, but not
the Moorgate GN line or SN services to East Croydon (which gives the
impression of just being a tram stop with an NR connection, just like
Birkbeck. There's no clue that Clapham Junction has frequent direct
connections to Victoria and Waterloo, or that there's a direct line between
Marylebone and West Ruislip.
You need the London Connections map for that
<http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf>
That's remarkably similar to the Tube Map - and shows how it'd be easy
to find room for the Moorgate line. Gets Elephant and Castle correct,
too.
--
Roland Perry
Clive Page
2020-12-18 15:54:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
You need the London Connections map for that
<http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf>
That's remarkably similar to the Tube Map - and shows how it'd be easy to find room for the Moorgate line. Gets Elephant and Castle correct, too.
Yes, I don't really understand why a map showing only TfL services is appropriate for any passengers any more. Surely nearly everyone now uses an Oyster or Contactless bank card or else (like me, mostly) buys paper Travelcards as part of a National Rail return ticket. All these are are valid on just about all services on this side of the London Connections map (with a few minor exceptions such as the HS1 to Stratford, and fast Heathrow services from Paddington).
--
Clive Page
Roland Perry
2020-12-17 12:33:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.
I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon
(etc) National Rail routes.
I'm not sure where one should draw the line (pun *not* intended!)
between which lines to include and which to omit.
You could be strict and only include traditional London Underground
lines, and exclude Thameslink and London Overground (since those were
traditionally British Rail / Network Rail).
At one extreme it could be any on which Oyster is accepted. At the other
only those which traverse Zone 1. I note they exclude the National Rail
line via Olympia (Milton Keynes to Wandsworth Common and points south).
Post by NY
You could additionally include London Overground. You could include
GOBLIN, North London Line and Thameslink and Finsbury Park to Moorgate.
But should you go further and include a selection of other Network Rail
services?
When FP-Moorgate was first transferred to British Rail, it was included
as a courtesy service on Underground maps, maybe because until 1976 it
had been a tube line (though not a very useful one in its final days,
because there was a gap between Old Street as the northern terminus of
the Moorgate line and BR services that called at FP).
I suppose the criterion for inclusion might be whether a typical ticket
for use on the Underground would or wouldn't allow you to use a
non-Underground line that called at stations within the zones that your
ticket covers. I don't know much about Oyster and tickets bought at
Underground stations because whenever I went up to London I bought a
Day Rover (Capitalcard) ticket which covered me for my return journey
into London and then unlimited use of Underground and NR trains within
the Greater London area (maybe out to Zone 9 on the new map that is
being discussed) - so I was a bit pampered in automatically having an
all-zones ticket. It's also a good 10 or more years since I've been to
London...
--
Roland Perry
Charles Ellson
2020-12-17 14:13:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.
I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon (etc)
National Rail routes.
I'm not sure where one should draw the line (pun *not* intended!) between
which lines to include and which to omit.
You could be strict and only include traditional London Underground lines,
and exclude Thameslink and London Overground (since those were traditionally
British Rail / Network Rail).
You could additionally include London Overground. You could include GOBLIN,
North London Line and Thameslink and Finsbury Park to Moorgate. But should
you go further and include a selection of other Network Rail services?
<snip>>
You could just resume publication of the fold-up "all lines" maps that
were available years ago but now only seem to exist in the form of
posters at stations or PDF files.
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf
Basil Jet
2020-12-17 11:42:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.
I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon
(etc) National Rail routes.
Another factor is that the GN&C south of Krapy Rubsnif has a metro-style
service where every train calls at every station. People trying to use
NR from Waterloo to Clapham Junction might end up accidentally boarding
a train that doesn't stop until Yeovil or somewhere like that.
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Mouse On Mars - 1999 - Niun Niggung
NY
2020-12-17 12:07:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Post by s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.
I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon (etc)
National Rail routes.
Another factor is that the GN&C south of Krapy Rubsnif has a metro-style
service where every train calls at every station. People trying to use NR
from Waterloo to Clapham Junction might end up accidentally boarding a
train that doesn't stop until Yeovil or somewhere like that.
That happened to me! In the days before the regular Clapham Junction to
Willesden Junction service, when the only trains which did that line were
peak-hours local trains, and long distance trains that used it as an
avoiding line, I wanted to get from Waterloo to Clapham Junction to get a
train to "do" the CJ-WJ line. I thought that "all" trains from Waterloo to
destinations around London (so not the Yeovil of you example!) stopped at
CJ. This one didn't. Its first stop was at Ashford (Surrey). I felt a bit of
a berk as it sailed through CJ. I had to backtrack, hoping that no-one
noticed that I had gone outside the boundary validity of my Capitalcard
ticket. I did manage to catch a later CJ-Olympia train so I still managed to
"do" that line. Of course nowadays, CJ-WJ trains are ten a penny ;-)
Charles Ellson
2020-12-17 14:18:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.
I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon
(etc) National Rail routes.
Another factor is that the GN&C south of Krapy Rubsnif has a metro-style
service where every train calls at every station. People trying to use
NR from Waterloo to Clapham Junction might end up accidentally boarding
a train that doesn't stop until Yeovil or somewhere like that.
Getting on the wrong train at Waterloo would usually involve ignoring
the indicator not listing Clapham Junction and getting on one of the
trains which is both not shown as stopping there and which does not
stop there.
s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
2020-12-17 11:56:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Dec 2020 10:45:52 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
Post by Recliner
I was thinking of the problems of showing and labelling the inner London
stations, while keeping the line reasonably straight.
Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.
I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon
(etc) National Rail routes.
Because it used to be a tube line, still gets used as such and is far more
integrated with the tube network than Thameslink. A few years ago I along with
hundreds of others used to change at FP to get the moorgate line.
Basil Jet
2020-12-17 17:30:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
On Thu, 17 Dec 2020 10:45:52 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
Post by Recliner
I was thinking of the problems of showing and labelling the inner London
stations, while keeping the line reasonably straight.
Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.
I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon
(etc) National Rail routes.
Because it used to be a tube line, still gets used as such
What does "get used as a tube line" mean?
Post by s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
and is far more
integrated with the tube network than Thameslink. A few years ago I along with
hundreds of others used to change at FP to get the moorgate line.
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Mouse On Mars - 1999 - Niun Niggung
s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
2020-12-18 11:37:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Dec 2020 17:30:19 +0000
Post by Basil Jet
Post by s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
On Thu, 17 Dec 2020 10:45:52 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@isnotyourbuddy.co.uk
Post by Recliner
I was thinking of the problems of showing and labelling the inner London
stations, while keeping the line reasonably straight.
Leaving out the Moorgate to FP section of GN - even if they don't include
the rest - is just cretinous and a disservice to passengers.
I'm not sure why it's worse than leaving out the Waterloo-Wimbledon
(etc) National Rail routes.
Because it used to be a tube line, still gets used as such
What does "get used as a tube line" mean?
It means people use it in preference to the Northern + victoria line as a way
to get to finsbury park. Most of that journey is underground.
Certes
2020-12-17 13:12:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-la
test-tube-map/
Test tube map?
<https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpWi6-7W4AMpwqv?format=jpg&name=large>
Neil has suggested that the GN Moorgate line should also be added, and I
agree, but it would be hard to squeeze it in.
Looks like it would easily fit between Finsbury Park and Moorgate, but
not much space for the Hertford Loop.
I was thinking of the problems of showing and labelling the inner London
stations, while keeping the line reasonably straight.
The London Connections map displays a straighter Thameslink in the same
colour scheme. The map we're discussing seems to be an uneasy hybrid of
the traditional tube maps and London Connections. The latter is far
more useful for making journeys such as Vauxhall to Clapham Junction,
which can seem long and complex if planned on the wrong map.

<https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/London_Connections.pdf>
Basil Jet
2020-12-17 17:34:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Certes
The London Connections map displays a straighter Thameslink in the same
colour scheme.  The map we're discussing seems to be an uneasy hybrid of
the traditional tube maps and London Connections.
It also probably has Crossrail through Farringdon on it, although that
was hidden in the released version, but it will still be there in the
document, forcing the positions of everything else. I say that because
ISTR the map was redesigned to allow Crossrail a few years ago, and is
likely to have kept that configuration.
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Mouse On Mars - 1999 - Niun Niggung
Recliner
2020-12-17 17:46:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Certes
The London Connections map displays a straighter Thameslink in the same
colour scheme.  The map we're discussing seems to be an uneasy hybrid of
the traditional tube maps and London Connections.
It also probably has Crossrail through Farringdon on it, although that
was hidden in the released version, but it will still be there in the
document, forcing the positions of everything else. I say that because
ISTR the map was redesigned to allow Crossrail a few years ago, and is
likely to have kept that configuration.
Yes, you can more or less work out where Crossrail will be added.
Marland
2020-12-17 09:46:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-la
test-tube-map/
Test tube map?
Just put out to test a reaction .

GH
Recliner
2020-12-17 10:01:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-la
test-tube-map/
Test tube map?
Just put out to test a reaction .
No, it's officially on the Tube map for at least the next 12 months, both
because of Covid and the planned Bank branch closures:

<https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2020/december/thameslink-services-set-to-be-temporarily-added-to-latest-tube-map-to-help-support-customers-during-the-coronavirus-pandemic>
Charles Ellson
2020-12-17 14:20:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Dec 2020 10:01:40 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Marland
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-la
test-tube-map/
Test tube map?
Just put out to test a reaction .
No, it's officially on the Tube map for at least the next 12 months, both
<https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2020/december/thameslink-services-set-to-be-temporarily-added-to-latest-tube-map-to-help-support-customers-during-the-coronavirus-pandemic>
Whoosh!
Graeme Wall
2020-12-17 18:04:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Marland
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-la
test-tube-map/
Test tube map?
Just put out to test a reaction .
No, it's officially on the Tube map for at least the next 12 months, both
<https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2020/december/thameslink-services-set-to-be-temporarily-added-to-latest-tube-map-to-help-support-customers-during-the-coronavirus-pandemic>
There's an awful lot of wooshing noises around here!
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Basil Jet
2020-12-17 11:45:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-la
test-tube-map/
Test tube map?
Just put out to test a reaction .
Pipe it down.
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Mouse On Mars - 1999 - Niun Niggung
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2020-12-18 06:19:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-la
test-tube-map/
They've left Hadley Wood off, despite it being in Zone 6.
The kink in the Thameslink Line between City TL and the junction north
of St Pancras seems inexplicable.
How else would you get round all the other blobs at KGX/StP? Especially
as the line in fact runs to the west.
Move the blobs?


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Roland Perry
2020-12-18 06:59:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-la
test-tube-map/
They've left Hadley Wood off, despite it being in Zone 6.
The kink in the Thameslink Line between City TL and the junction north
of St Pancras seems inexplicable.
How else would you get round all the other blobs at KGX/StP? Especially
as the line in fact runs to the west.
Move the blobs?
I think the answer is to be found on the London Connections map, where
Thameslink traverses the separated-out St Pancras Station.

If you then simplify that map by cutting out the GN routes[1],
Thameslink will still be going "around the west".

[[1] And 2tph Thameslink into Kings Cross, which is a symptom of not
yet(?) having reached the maximum frequency in the core.
--
Roland Perry
Basil Jet
2020-12-17 10:18:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-latest-tube-map/
They've left Hadley Wood off, despite it being in Zone 6.
I've just figured that out. They're showing Thameslink served stations
only, and Hadley Wood is only served by GN services, as are Harringay,
Hornsey and Alexandra Palace, which are also not shown on the map. The
TL trains which call at New Southgate, Oakleigh Park and New Barnet are
a peak-only service, and very much the minority of the trains that call
at those stations even in the peak, so while the map is correct for some
definition of correct, I don't think it has much meaning to the customers.
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
The Mint Chicks - 2003 - Octagon, Octagon, Octagon
Recliner
2021-01-05 00:13:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-latest-tube-map/
They've left Hadley Wood off, despite it being in Zone 6.
The kink in the Thameslink Line between City TL and the junction north
of St Pancras seems inexplicable.
The Bakerloo Line shouldn't enter Elephant at the same angle that the
Denmark Hill branch leaves.
Maidenhead and Reading are still portrayed north of the Thames!
The official version is up:
<https://content.tfl.gov.uk/standard-tube-map.pdf>
Marland
2021-01-05 09:46:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-latest-tube-map/
They've left Hadley Wood off, despite it being in Zone 6.
The kink in the Thameslink Line between City TL and the junction north
of St Pancras seems inexplicable.
The Bakerloo Line shouldn't enter Elephant at the same angle that the
Denmark Hill branch leaves.
Maidenhead and Reading are still portrayed north of the Thames!
<https://content.tfl.gov.uk/standard-tube-map.pdf>
Is the Northern line Battersea extension still due to open later this year?
If so then this edition of the map will have a short lifetime, in fact I’m
surprised the extension isn’t on there in some way even if it was shown as
a dotted or dashed line with an “opening soon” addendum.
Previous maps in the past have done so , it maybe TFL doesn’t want to
repeat the example of the never completed Northern Heights extensions which
appeared on maps and route diagrams before the scheme was abandoned. I
don’t think that will happen to the Battersea one especially as trains
under their own power have been doing testing runs in the past few weeks
but could opening be put back due to the C word.


GH
s***@grumpysods.com
2021-01-05 10:05:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 5 Jan 2021 09:46:34 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by Recliner
<https://content.tfl.gov.uk/standard-tube-map.pdf>
Is the Northern line Battersea extension still due to open later this year?
Have the contractors been packed off home to save them from the geriatrics
virus or are they still working?
Recliner
2021-01-05 10:08:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
On 5 Jan 2021 09:46:34 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by Recliner
<https://content.tfl.gov.uk/standard-tube-map.pdf>
Is the Northern line Battersea extension still due to open later this year?
Have the contractors been packed off home to save them from the geriatrics
virus or are they still working?
You can see them working in this photo:
<https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eq4VGfoXIAE3qrb?format=jpg&name=large>
s***@grumpysods.com
2021-01-05 10:14:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 5 Jan 2021 10:08:40 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@grumpysods.com
On 5 Jan 2021 09:46:34 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by Recliner
<https://content.tfl.gov.uk/standard-tube-map.pdf>
Is the Northern line Battersea extension still due to open later this year?
Have the contractors been packed off home to save them from the geriatrics
virus or are they still working?
<https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eq4VGfoXIAE3qrb?format=jpg&name=large>
Will they still be there tommorow though. I'm sure if they had a choice they
would be but safety culture and the current hysteria being what it is I
wouldn't be surprised if things were shut down.
Recliner
2021-01-05 10:07:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-latest-tube-map/
They've left Hadley Wood off, despite it being in Zone 6.
The kink in the Thameslink Line between City TL and the junction north
of St Pancras seems inexplicable.
The Bakerloo Line shouldn't enter Elephant at the same angle that the
Denmark Hill branch leaves.
Maidenhead and Reading are still portrayed north of the Thames!
<https://content.tfl.gov.uk/standard-tube-map.pdf>
Is the Northern line Battersea extension still due to open later this year?
If so then this edition of the map will have a short lifetime, in fact I’m
surprised the extension isn’t on there in some way even if it was shown as
a dotted or dashed line with an “opening soon” addendum.
Previous maps in the past have done so , it maybe TFL doesn’t want to
repeat the example of the never completed Northern Heights extensions which
appeared on maps and route diagrams before the scheme was abandoned. I
don’t think that will happen to the Battersea one especially as trains
under their own power have been doing testing runs in the past few weeks
but could opening be put back due to the C word.
Yes, I believe it's still due to open this year and, as you say, test
trains started running last month. The stations appear near-complete at
platform level. TfL just says, "The extension is scheduled to be completed
in autumn 2021". Note the careful use of the word 'completed' as opposed to
'open'.

I don't know if there's any dependency on the surface development projects
for the stations to open? For example, the Battersea Power Station Station
is incorporated in one of the new surface blocks, which may need to be
finished before the LU station can open. So, even if the LU work is all
complete, there could still be a delay before the public opening.

Presumably there will be another edition of the map by then? In any case,
it would perhaps mislead people to show it on maps many months before it
opens.
Basil Jet
2021-01-05 10:41:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Yes, I believe it's still due to open this year and, as you say, test
trains started running last month. The stations appear near-complete at
platform level. TfL just says, "The extension is scheduled to be completed
in autumn 2021". Note the careful use of the word 'completed' as opposed to
'open'.
I don't know if there's any dependency on the surface development projects
for the stations to open? For example, the Battersea Power Station Station
is incorporated in one of the new surface blocks, which may need to be
finished before the LU station can open. So, even if the LU work is all
complete, there could still be a delay before the public opening.
Presumably there will be another edition of the map by then? In any case,
it would perhaps mislead people to show it on maps many months before it
opens.
Extensions under construction have been shown on tube maps much more
recently than the Northern Heights and Denham debacles. You want people
to move to the area and be waiting to commute on your opening day. That
might not be so relevant for Crossrail but it is relevant for Battersea.

I presume the "test trains" are extensions of passenger services? Are
they making a real effort to throw people off at Kennington? Do all the
trains go there or do some still go around the Kennington loop? Are
there still Morden via Charing Cross trains?
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Meat Puppets - 1999 - You Love Me EP
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2021-01-05 10:26:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-latest-tube-map/
They've left Hadley Wood off, despite it being in Zone 6.
The kink in the Thameslink Line between City TL and the junction north
of St Pancras seems inexplicable.
The Bakerloo Line shouldn't enter Elephant at the same angle that the
Denmark Hill branch leaves.
Maidenhead and Reading are still portrayed north of the Thames!
<https://content.tfl.gov.uk/standard-tube-map.pdf>
Is the Northern line Battersea extension still due to open later this year?
If so then this edition of the map will have a short lifetime, in fact I’m
surprised the extension isn’t on there in some way even if it was shown as
a dotted or dashed line with an “opening soon” addendum.
Previous maps in the past have done so , it maybe TFL doesn’t want to
repeat the example of the never completed Northern Heights extensions which
appeared on maps and route diagrams before the scheme was abandoned. I
don’t think that will happen to the Battersea one especially as trains
under their own power have been doing testing runs in the past few weeks
but could opening be put back due to the C word.
<https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/tag/northern-line-extension/>


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Recliner
2021-01-05 10:53:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Marland
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-latest-tube-map/
They've left Hadley Wood off, despite it being in Zone 6.
The kink in the Thameslink Line between City TL and the junction north
of St Pancras seems inexplicable.
The Bakerloo Line shouldn't enter Elephant at the same angle that the
Denmark Hill branch leaves.
Maidenhead and Reading are still portrayed north of the Thames!
<https://content.tfl.gov.uk/standard-tube-map.pdf>
Is the Northern line Battersea extension still due to open later this year?
If so then this edition of the map will have a short lifetime, in fact I’m
surprised the extension isn’t on there in some way even if it was shown as
a dotted or dashed line with an “opening soon” addendum.
Previous maps in the past have done so , it maybe TFL doesn’t want to
repeat the example of the never completed Northern Heights extensions which
appeared on maps and route diagrams before the scheme was abandoned. I
don’t think that will happen to the Battersea one especially as trains
under their own power have been doing testing runs in the past few weeks
but could opening be put back due to the C word.
<https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/tag/northern-line-extension/>
It occurs to me that Crossrail also has an unofficial, internal target to
start running passenger services through the central tunnels this autumn,
subject to the imminent trial running (ie, simulated full passenger
service) going well.

So there's a possibility that both could open at about the same time — I
wonder if TfL might seek to do so on the same day, or deliberately stagger
them?
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2021-01-05 11:08:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Marland
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-latest-tube-map/
They've left Hadley Wood off, despite it being in Zone 6.
The kink in the Thameslink Line between City TL and the junction north
of St Pancras seems inexplicable.
The Bakerloo Line shouldn't enter Elephant at the same angle that the
Denmark Hill branch leaves.
Maidenhead and Reading are still portrayed north of the Thames!
<https://content.tfl.gov.uk/standard-tube-map.pdf>
Is the Northern line Battersea extension still due to open later this year?
If so then this edition of the map will have a short lifetime, in fact I’m
surprised the extension isn’t on there in some way even if it was shown as
a dotted or dashed line with an “opening soon” addendum.
Previous maps in the past have done so , it maybe TFL doesn’t want to
repeat the example of the never completed Northern Heights extensions which
appeared on maps and route diagrams before the scheme was abandoned. I
don’t think that will happen to the Battersea one especially as trains
under their own power have been doing testing runs in the past few weeks
but could opening be put back due to the C word.
<https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/tag/northern-line-extension/>
It occurs to me that Crossrail also has an unofficial, internal target to
start running passenger services through the central tunnels this autumn,
subject to the imminent trial running (ie, simulated full passenger
service) going well.
So there's a possibility that both could open at about the same time — I
wonder if TfL might seek to do so on the same day, or deliberately stagger
them?
I suspect TfL will open them without prior announcement, especially if
Covid is still around.
Recliner
2021-01-05 11:22:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Marland
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Geoff celebrates the belated return of Thameslink to TfL's Tube Map, after
a long absence. And it's not just the core section, but as much as fits in
http://youtu.be/WZ5SQcdC48o
The map itself is not on the TfL site yet, but curiously is available at
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/12/16/thameslink-is-back-on-the-latest-tube-map/
They've left Hadley Wood off, despite it being in Zone 6.
The kink in the Thameslink Line between City TL and the junction north
of St Pancras seems inexplicable.
The Bakerloo Line shouldn't enter Elephant at the same angle that the
Denmark Hill branch leaves.
Maidenhead and Reading are still portrayed north of the Thames!
<https://content.tfl.gov.uk/standard-tube-map.pdf>
Is the Northern line Battersea extension still due to open later this year?
If so then this edition of the map will have a short lifetime, in fact I’m
surprised the extension isn’t on there in some way even if it was shown as
a dotted or dashed line with an “opening soon” addendum.
Previous maps in the past have done so , it maybe TFL doesn’t want to
repeat the example of the never completed Northern Heights extensions which
appeared on maps and route diagrams before the scheme was abandoned. I
don’t think that will happen to the Battersea one especially as trains
under their own power have been doing testing runs in the past few weeks
but could opening be put back due to the C word.
<https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/tag/northern-line-extension/>
It occurs to me that Crossrail also has an unofficial, internal target to
start running passenger services through the central tunnels this autumn,
subject to the imminent trial running (ie, simulated full passenger
service) going well.
So there's a possibility that both could open at about the same time — I
wonder if TfL might seek to do so on the same day, or deliberately stagger
them?
I suspect TfL will open them without prior announcement, especially if
Covid is still around.
I don't think Covid will be a factor by the autumn. It'll still be around,
but less of a bother than winter flu.
Crossrail, of course, is opening in a number of phases, and the version
that might just open this autumn won't be the full service. For example,
there won't be through trains from the western arm, and the tunnel might
initially only see trains from Abbey Wood. Those two remaining links may
open next year.

They presumably hope HM will perform the opening ceremony when "One's" line
is formally opened under its official brand. I assume the Elizabeth Line
name will be used once the central tunnel and new stations are opened, even
if all the sections don't yet have through services. So that could happen
this autumn.
NY
2021-01-05 11:36:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
They presumably hope HM will perform the opening ceremony when "One's" line
is formally opened under its official brand. I assume the Elizabeth Line
name will be used once the central tunnel and new stations are opened, even
if all the sections don't yet have through services. So that could happen
this autumn.
I wonder how many people will use the name "Elizabeth Line" in normal
parlance, compared with those that call it "Crossrail [Line]". I bet it gets
abbreviated to "Liz Line" ;-)
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2021-01-05 11:53:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
They presumably hope HM will perform the opening ceremony when "One's" line
is formally opened under its official brand. I assume the Elizabeth Line
name will be used once the central tunnel and new stations are opened, even
if all the sections don't yet have through services. So that could happen
this autumn.
I wonder how many people will use the name "Elizabeth Line" in normal
parlance, compared with those that call it "Crossrail [Line]". I bet it
gets abbreviated to "Liz Line" ;-)
Journalists and political people see to be the only ones who use the new
name for the New Severn Bridge. The rest of us still call it the New
Severn Bridge.

Old habits die hard and I'm sure the same will apply to Crossrail for a
long while.
Roland Perry
2021-01-05 12:13:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
They presumably hope HM will perform the opening ceremony when
"One's" line
is formally opened under its official brand. I assume the Elizabeth Line
name will be used once the central tunnel and new stations are
opened, even
if all the sections don't yet have through services. So that could happen
this autumn.
I wonder how many people will use the name "Elizabeth Line" in
normal parlance, compared with those that call it "Crossrail [Line]".
I bet it gets abbreviated to "Liz Line" ;-)
Journalists and political people see to be the only ones who use the
new name for the New Severn Bridge. The rest of us still call it the
New Severn Bridge.
Old habits die hard and I'm sure the same will apply to Crossrail for a
long while.
Indeed, I don't think anyone stopped calling Thameslink, "Thameslink",
even when it was operated by FCC.
--
Roland Perry
NY
2021-01-05 21:23:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Indeed, I don't think anyone stopped calling Thameslink, "Thameslink",
even when it was operated by FCC.
I remember arriving at St Pancras, maybe on foot or maybe by a tube line,
looking for the "new" (as it was then) Thameslink station, following the
closure of old KX Midland City station on Pentonville Road. And I couldn't
find it anywhere. All the other lines were clearly marked on overhead signs,
but there were no signs to Thameslink. Eventually I though I'd try the
"Govia" line - and found that this was what the Thameslink part of the
station was now called. Bloody stupid to rename it after the old name was so
well known and established. It's like all the renamings of football stadiums
to include the name of the latest sponsor.
Roland Perry
2021-01-06 09:55:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Roland Perry
Indeed, I don't think anyone stopped calling Thameslink,
"Thameslink", even when it was operated by FCC.
I remember arriving at St Pancras, maybe on foot or maybe by a tube
line, looking for the "new" (as it was then)
The station opened in 2007...
Post by NY
Thameslink station, following the closure of old KX Midland City
station on Pentonville Road. And I couldn't find it anywhere. All the
other lines were clearly marked on overhead signs, but there were no
signs to Thameslink. Eventually I though I'd try the "Govia" line
...and Govia didn't take over the franchise until 2014.
Post by NY
- and found that this was what the Thameslink part of the station was
now called. Bloody stupid to rename it after the old name was so well
known and established. It's like all the renamings of football stadiums
to include the name of the latest sponsor.
But I agree that the different parts of the station should really be
named to represent stability (eg Thameslink/HS1/E*/MML) rather than the
name of the franchise operating it this week.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2021-01-06 10:18:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Roland Perry
Indeed, I don't think anyone stopped calling Thameslink,
"Thameslink", even when it was operated by FCC.
I remember arriving at St Pancras, maybe on foot or maybe by a tube
line, looking for the "new" (as it was then)
The station opened in 2007...
Post by NY
Thameslink station, following the closure of old KX Midland City
station on Pentonville Road. And I couldn't find it anywhere. All the
other lines were clearly marked on overhead signs, but there were no
signs to Thameslink. Eventually I though I'd try the "Govia" line
...and Govia didn't take over the franchise until 2014.
Yes, it was First, in the guise of FCC, that tried to expunge Thameslink.
GTR promptly returned to Thameslink branding, including on the SPILL
station.

<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/17087374661/in/album-72157651787464546/>
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
- and found that this was what the Thameslink part of the station was
now called. Bloody stupid to rename it after the old name was so well
known and established. It's like all the renamings of football stadiums
to include the name of the latest sponsor.
But I agree that the different parts of the station should really be
named to represent stability (eg Thameslink/HS1/E*/MML) rather than the
name of the franchise operating it this week.
Though that might confuse people who have EMR or Southeastern tickets. They
may not know what 'MML' or HS1' means.
NY
2021-01-06 10:51:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Roland Perry
Indeed, I don't think anyone stopped calling Thameslink,
"Thameslink", even when it was operated by FCC.
I remember arriving at St Pancras, maybe on foot or maybe by a tube
line, looking for the "new" (as it was then)
The station opened in 2007...
Post by NY
Thameslink station, following the closure of old KX Midland City
station on Pentonville Road. And I couldn't find it anywhere. All the
other lines were clearly marked on overhead signs, but there were no
signs to Thameslink. Eventually I though I'd try the "Govia" line
...and Govia didn't take over the franchise until 2014.
Yes, it was First, in the guise of FCC, that tried to expunge Thameslink.
GTR promptly returned to Thameslink branding, including on the SPILL
station.
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/17087374661/in/album-72157651787464546/>
Ah. I *did* mis-remember it - but I got the gist correct. When did FCC take
over and try to expunge the Thameslink name, in relation to when SPILL
opened? How did FCC describe their part of the station on passenger signage?
Did they effectively replace "Thameslink" with "FCC" (or "First") on signs?
Sadly "First" tends to lead to confusion with First Class versus
Standard/Second Class in terms of ticketing and carriage seating - not a
very sensible name to use in a context where First has a long-established
meaning.
Recliner
2021-01-06 11:03:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Roland Perry
Indeed, I don't think anyone stopped calling Thameslink,
"Thameslink", even when it was operated by FCC.
I remember arriving at St Pancras, maybe on foot or maybe by a tube
line, looking for the "new" (as it was then)
The station opened in 2007...
Post by NY
Thameslink station, following the closure of old KX Midland City
station on Pentonville Road. And I couldn't find it anywhere. All the
other lines were clearly marked on overhead signs, but there were no
signs to Thameslink. Eventually I though I'd try the "Govia" line
...and Govia didn't take over the franchise until 2014.
Yes, it was First, in the guise of FCC, that tried to expunge Thameslink.
GTR promptly returned to Thameslink branding, including on the SPILL
station.
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/17087374661/in/album-72157651787464546/>
Ah. I *did* mis-remember it - but I got the gist correct. When did FCC take
over and try to expunge the Thameslink name, in relation to when SPILL
opened? How did FCC describe their part of the station on passenger signage?
Did they effectively replace "Thameslink" with "FCC" (or "First") on signs?
Yes:
<Loading Image...>
Post by NY
Sadly "First" tends to lead to confusion with First Class versus
Standard/Second Class in terms of ticketing and carriage seating - not a
very sensible name to use in a context where First has a long-established
meaning.
Yes, they used FCC or First Capital Connect on all their branding. And
here's an example of First selling expensive First class tickets for FCC
trains without First class seats:
<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/first-class-tickets-sold-for-trains-without-first-class-seats-6474136.html>
Roland Perry
2021-01-06 13:12:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
When did FCC take over and try to expunge the Thameslink name, in
relation to when SPILL opened?
When it opened they'd had the franchise 18 months.
--
Roland Perry
NY
2021-01-06 10:45:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
Post by Roland Perry
Indeed, I don't think anyone stopped calling Thameslink, "Thameslink",
even when it was operated by FCC.
I remember arriving at St Pancras, maybe on foot or maybe by a tube line,
looking for the "new" (as it was then)
The station opened in 2007...
Post by NY
Thameslink station, following the closure of old KX Midland City station
on Pentonville Road. And I couldn't find it anywhere. All the other lines
were clearly marked on overhead signs, but there were no signs to
Thameslink. Eventually I though I'd try the "Govia" line
...and Govia didn't take over the franchise until 2014.
Interesting. I must have mis-remembered the timing of my visit. I thought
that it was soon after the new station opened, but maybe it was some time
(at least 7 years) later. Either way, it was a "new" station to *me* ;-)
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
- and found that this was what the Thameslink part of the station was now
called. Bloody stupid to rename it after the old name was so well known
and established. It's like all the renamings of football stadiums to
include the name of the latest sponsor.
But I agree that the different parts of the station should really be named
to represent stability (eg Thameslink/HS1/E*/MML) rather than the name of
the franchise operating it this week.
Very definitely. I'm firmly of the school of thought with everything in life
that you aim to get it right the first time and then never change it if
possible. This is diammetrically opposite to the normal school of thought
that you should rearrange the deckchairs on the Titanic as often as possible
to prevent things getting "stale". The current here-today-gone-tomorrow
owner/operator is a very different concept to the long-term service name.
Sadly each operator wants to publicise their own name rather than the
service name.

If I was in charge of allocating TOCs, I'd build a condition into the
franchise agreement that all signage, timetables etc must use the
long-established service/route name, and that your own company branding must
be *in addition* to this rather than as a *replacement* for it. Hence
"Thameslink" rather than "Govia".

In particular, a descriptive name (eg Thameslink) is always better than a
made-up name like Govia that doesn't indicate the route or coverage area.
Old "grouping" company names like LNER, LMS, GWR, Southern indicated the
territory. Modern franchise owner names like Avanti, Abellio, C2C, Govia,
Connex are meaningless. Company names should endeavour to *mean* something
about their business - sorry if that is a heretical idea!

How is Govia pronounced? GO-vee-ah (as in the classical guitarist Segovia),
Go-VI-a (as in "go via")?
NY
2021-01-05 12:22:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
They presumably hope HM will perform the opening ceremony when "One's" line
is formally opened under its official brand. I assume the Elizabeth Line
name will be used once the central tunnel and new stations are opened, even
if all the sections don't yet have through services. So that could happen
this autumn.
I wonder how many people will use the name "Elizabeth Line" in normal
parlance, compared with those that call it "Crossrail [Line]". I bet it
gets abbreviated to "Liz Line" ;-)
Journalists and political people see to be the only ones who use the new
name for the New Severn Bridge. The rest of us still call it the New
Severn Bridge.
Old habits die hard and I'm sure the same will apply to Crossrail for a
long while.
I agree. The first name is the one that sticks in people's minds. If they'd
wanted to called it the Elizabeth Line, they should have used that name from
the start. Having first called it Crossrail, that's the name they should
stick with.

Like for Opal Fruits, Marathon and Jif.

I hadn't even realised that the New Severn Bridge was now called the Prince
of Wales Bridge.

At least we haven't adopted the US policy of naming everything after the
full name (including the middle initial without which no official US name is
incomplete!) of a sponsor.

Boston Airport is either "Boston Airport" or "Logan Airport" as far as I'm
concerned, not "General Edward Lawrence Logan International Airport".

Why *do* Americans insist on using their middle initials/names on official
documentation? Does "John H Smith" sound more impressive than "John Smith"?
And why do so many Americans have Roman numerals after their names? Is it
because children are named after their father, grandfather and great
grandfather (all called John Smith, distinguished by I, II, III and IV
suffix) rather than being adventurous and choosing different forenames for
each generation?
Roland Perry
2021-01-05 14:10:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
The first name is the one that sticks in people's minds. If they'd
wanted to called it the Elizabeth Line, they should have used that name
from the start. Having first called it Crossrail, that's the name they
should stick with.
Like for Opal Fruits, Marathon and Jif.
I hadn't even realised that the New Severn Bridge was now called the
Prince of Wales Bridge.
I've never heard a member of the public refer to the Dartford Bridge as
the QE II bridge. Then there's "Big Ben" (yes, I know that's the bell)
and Elizabeth Tower.
Post by NY
At least we haven't adopted the US policy of naming everything after
the full name (including the middle initial without which no official
US name is incomplete!) of a sponsor.
Boston Airport is either "Boston Airport" or "Logan Airport" as far as
I'm concerned, not "General Edward Lawrence Logan International
Airport".
Why *do* Americans insist on using their middle initials/names on
official documentation? Does "John H Smith" sound more impressive than
"John Smith"?
Because of the same reason as below. Hence George "W" Bush for example.
Post by NY
And why do so many Americans have Roman numerals after their names? Is
it because children are named after their father, grandfather and great
grandfather (all called John Smith, distinguished by I, II, III and IV
suffix) rather than being adventurous and choosing different forenames
for each generation?
It's just a cultural thing, like many Europeans have names like Magnus
Magnus*son*, and innumerable similar Slavic suffices.
--
Roland Perry
Tweed
2021-01-05 16:22:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
It's just a cultural thing, like many Europeans have names like Magnus
Magnus*son*, and innumerable similar Slavic suffices.
Slavic? I thought it came from the Icelandic. There surnames come from the
first name of the parent.
So Magnusson is the male offspring of a chap whose first name was Magnus
<something else>son. If he also had a female offspring her surname would be
Magnusdottir. (Magnus’s daughter)

It made for an interesting telephone book....
Roland Perry
2021-01-05 16:52:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
It's just a cultural thing, like many Europeans have names like Magnus
Magnus*son*, and innumerable similar Slavic suffices.
Slavic? I thought it came from the Icelandic. There surnames come from the
first name of the parent.
Yes, hence the use of the word "similar" (not "identical")
--
Roland Perry
Sam Wilson
2021-01-05 18:17:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
It's just a cultural thing, like many Europeans have names like Magnus
Magnus*son*, and innumerable similar Slavic suffices.
Slavic? I thought it came from the Icelandic. There surnames come from the
first name of the parent.
Yes, hence the use of the word "similar" (not "identical")
I’ve recently found this fascinating and instructive:
<https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-personal-names>

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Arthur Figgis
2021-01-05 21:24:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
It's just a cultural thing, like many Europeans have names like Magnus
Magnus*son*, and innumerable similar Slavic suffices.
Slavic? I thought it came from the Icelandic. There surnames come from the
first name of the parent.
Yes, hence the use of the word "similar" (not "identical")
<https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-personal-names>
The Afghan politican Abdullah Abdullah allegedly only had one name
originally, but he got so fed up with people from elsehwere asking for
his other name that he decided it was easiest to double it so he had one.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Sam Wilson
2021-01-05 22:23:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
It's just a cultural thing, like many Europeans have names like Magnus
Magnus*son*, and innumerable similar Slavic suffices.
Slavic? I thought it came from the Icelandic. There surnames come from the
first name of the parent.
Yes, hence the use of the word "similar" (not "identical")
<https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-personal-names>
The Afghan politican Abdullah Abdullah allegedly only had one name
originally, but he got so fed up with people from elsehwere asking for
his other name that he decided it was easiest to double it so he had one.
George Brown, the tired and emotional Labour politician, became Lord
George-Brown on his elevation to the peerage because he still wanted to be
called George Brown, even though peers are conventionally known only by
their surnames. He had to change his name to George George-Brown to do it,
though. Boutros Boutros-Ghali did something similar but I don’t know the
details.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Recliner
2021-01-05 22:26:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
It's just a cultural thing, like many Europeans have names like Magnus
Magnus*son*, and innumerable similar Slavic suffices.
Slavic? I thought it came from the Icelandic. There surnames come from the
first name of the parent.
Yes, hence the use of the word "similar" (not "identical")
<https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-personal-names>
The Afghan politican Abdullah Abdullah allegedly only had one name
originally, but he got so fed up with people from elsehwere asking for
his other name that he decided it was easiest to double it so he had one.
George Brown, the tired and emotional Labour politician, became Lord
George-Brown on his elevation to the peerage because he still wanted to be
called George Brown, even though peers are conventionally known only by
their surnames. He had to change his name to George George-Brown to do it,
though. Boutros Boutros-Ghali did something similar but I don’t know the
details.
I never knew that!
NY
2021-01-05 22:45:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Sam Wilson
George Brown, the tired and emotional Labour politician, became Lord
George-Brown on his elevation to the peerage because he still wanted to be
called George Brown, even though peers are conventionally known only by
their surnames. He had to change his name to George George-Brown to do it,
though. Boutros Boutros-Ghali did something similar but I don’t know the
details.
I never knew that!
I'd forgotten all about Boutros Boutros-Ghali. Sounds like a made-up name
invented by The Fast Show ("Scorccio!") but he was always in the news in the
1990s as president of the UN. "Boutros Boutros-Ghali was born in Cairo,
Egypt, on 14 November 1922 into a Coptic Christian family. His father Yusuf
Butros Ghali was the son of Boutros Ghali Bey" (Wikipedia). Seems as if
Boutros/Butros was a family name that was so important that his parents used
it as a first name as well.
m***@round-midnight.org.uk
2021-01-06 11:47:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
It's just a cultural thing, like many Europeans have names like Magnus
Magnus*son*, and innumerable similar Slavic suffices.
Slavic? I thought it came from the Icelandic. There surnames come from the
first name of the parent.
Yes, hence the use of the word "similar" (not "identical")
<https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-personal-names>
The Afghan politican Abdullah Abdullah allegedly only had one name
originally, but he got so fed up with people from elsehwere asking for
his other name that he decided it was easiest to double it so he had one.
George Brown, the tired and emotional Labour politician, became Lord
George-Brown on his elevation to the peerage because he still wanted to be
called George Brown, even though peers are conventionally known only by
their surnames. He had to change his name to George George-Brown to do it,
though. Boutros Boutros-Ghali did something similar but I don’t know the
details.
I remember ordering a CD from the US by email before the days of
internet ordering and they insisted on a middle name which I don't have.
They seemed happy with Zed and I don't think they correlated it with Zee.
NY
2021-01-06 12:12:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I remember ordering a CD from the US by email before the days of internet
ordering and they insisted on a middle name which I don't have. They
seemed happy with Zed and I don't think they correlated it with Zee.
Interesting how conventions for middle names have changed over the years.
All four of my grandparents, born around 1910 +/- a few years, had just one
name. Their parents and their children had two forenames. I wonder why
middle names went out of fashion around 1910 - or were my grandparents an
unrepresentative sample? ;-)

There was a trend slightly further back for a family name (eg mother's
maiden surname) to be used as a first name. One of my great grandfather's
had the first name Herd, which was his mother's maiden surname. Come to
think of it, I'm not sure he had a middle name, either, so maybe the
no-middle-name trend started earlier. My dad's paternal grandmother's family
had a trend for using the surnames of famous politicians of the time as
middle names for their children - there is a <forename> Gladstone <surname>,
<forename> Palmerstone <surname> and <forename> Disraeli <surname>.
Roland Perry
2021-01-06 07:39:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
It's just a cultural thing, like many Europeans have names like Magnus
Magnus*son*, and innumerable similar Slavic suffices.
Slavic? I thought it came from the Icelandic. There surnames come from the
first name of the parent.
Yes, hence the use of the word "similar" (not "identical")
<https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-personal-names>
The Afghan politican Abdullah Abdullah allegedly only had one name
originally, but he got so fed up with people from elsehwere asking for
his other name that he decided it was easiest to double it so he had one.
I knew an African who employed the same workaround.
--
Roland Perry
NY
2021-01-05 21:20:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
It's just a cultural thing, like many Europeans have names like Magnus
Magnus*son*, and innumerable similar Slavic suffices.
Slavic? I thought it came from the Icelandic. There surnames come from the
first name of the parent.
So Magnusson is the male offspring of a chap whose first name was Magnus
<something else>son. If he also had a female offspring her surname would be
Magnusdottir. (Magnus’s daughter)
It made for an interesting telephone book....
It must make genealogy "interesting" because every generation of a family
will have a different surname, as will brothers and sisters.

In Icelandic, do *both* the sons and the daughters take the father's first
name? I have vague memories of being told that daughter's sometimes take the
mother's first name - so Magnus and Oddny (*) might have a son with a
surname Magnusson and a daughter with a surname Oddnydottir (rather than
Magnusdottir).

Do Icelandic women generally take their husband's surname after marriage or
do they normally / always keep their maiden surname?


(*) The only Icelandic person I knew was a woman with this rather unusual (I
hesitate to say Odd!) first name.
Sam Wilson
2021-01-05 22:23:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
It's just a cultural thing, like many Europeans have names like Magnus
Magnus*son*, and innumerable similar Slavic suffices.
Slavic? I thought it came from the Icelandic. There surnames come from the
first name of the parent.
So Magnusson is the male offspring of a chap whose first name was Magnus
<something else>son. If he also had a female offspring her surname would be
Magnusdottir. (Magnus’s daughter)
It made for an interesting telephone book....
It must make genealogy "interesting" because every generation of a family
will have a different surname, as will brothers and sisters.
In Icelandic, do *both* the sons and the daughters take the father's first
name? I have vague memories of being told that daughter's sometimes take the
mother's first name - so Magnus and Oddny (*) might have a son with a
surname Magnusson and a daughter with a surname Oddnydottir (rather than
Magnusdottir).
Do Icelandic women generally take their husband's surname after marriage or
do they normally / always keep their maiden surname?
Search for “iceland” here:
<https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-personal-names>

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
NY
2021-01-05 22:40:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by NY
In Icelandic, do *both* the sons and the daughters take the father's first
name? I have vague memories of being told that daughter's sometimes take the
mother's first name - so Magnus and Oddny (*) might have a son with a
surname Magnusson and a daughter with a surname Oddnydottir (rather than
Magnusdottir).
<https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-personal-names>
Shame it doesn't say in what circumstances the daughter's surname is based
on her mother's rather than father's first name. I wonder if there's a
convention or just "whichever sounds better".
Recliner
2021-01-05 22:52:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by NY
In Icelandic, do *both* the sons and the daughters take the father's first
name? I have vague memories of being told that daughter's sometimes take the
mother's first name - so Magnus and Oddny (*) might have a son with a
surname Magnusson and a daughter with a surname Oddnydottir (rather than
Magnusdottir).
<https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-personal-names>
Shame it doesn't say in what circumstances the daughter's surname is based
on her mother's rather than father's first name. I wonder if there's a
convention or just "whichever sounds better".
According to the all-knowing Wikipedia:

The vast majority of Icelandic last names carry the name of the father, but
occasionally the mother's name is used: e.g. if the child or mother wishes
to end social ties with the father. Some women use it as a social statement
while others simply choose it as a matter of style.

In all of these cases, the convention is the same: Ólafur, the son of
Bryndís, will have the full name of Ólafur Bryndísarson ("the son of
Bryndís"). Some well-known Icelanders with matronymic names are the
football player Heiðar Helguson ("Helga's son"), the novelist Guðrún Eva
Mínervudóttir ("Minerva's daughter"), and the medieval poet Eilífr
Goðrúnarson ("Goðrún's son").

In the Icelandic film Bjarnfreðarson the title character's name is the
subject of some mockery for his having a woman's name – as Bjarnfreður's
son – not his father's. In the film this is connected to the mother's
radical feminism and shame over his paternity, which form part of the
film's plot.[9] Some people have both a matronymic and a patronymic: for
example, Dagur Bergþóruson Eggertsson ("the son of Bergþóra and Eggert"),
the mayor of Reykjavík since 2014. Another example is the girl Blær
mentioned above: her full name is Blær Bjarkardóttir Rúnarsdóttir ("the
daughter of Björk and Rúnar").

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_name#Matronymic_naming_as_a_choice>
Tweed
2021-01-06 07:27:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by NY
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by NY
In Icelandic, do *both* the sons and the daughters take the father's first
name? I have vague memories of being told that daughter's sometimes take the
mother's first name - so Magnus and Oddny (*) might have a son with a
surname Magnusson and a daughter with a surname Oddnydottir (rather than
Magnusdottir).
<https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-personal-names>
Shame it doesn't say in what circumstances the daughter's surname is based
on her mother's rather than father's first name. I wonder if there's a
convention or just "whichever sounds better".
The vast majority of Icelandic last names carry the name of the father, but
occasionally the mother's name is used: e.g. if the child or mother wishes
to end social ties with the father. Some women use it as a social statement
while others simply choose it as a matter of style.
In all of these cases, the convention is the same: Ólafur, the son of
Bryndís, will have the full name of Ólafur Bryndísarson ("the son of
Bryndís"). Some well-known Icelanders with matronymic names are the
football player Heiðar Helguson ("Helga's son"), the novelist Guðrún Eva
Mínervudóttir ("Minerva's daughter"), and the medieval poet Eilífr
Goðrúnarson ("Goðrún's son").
In the Icelandic film Bjarnfreðarson the title character's name is the
subject of some mockery for his having a woman's name – as Bjarnfreður's
son – not his father's. In the film this is connected to the mother's
radical feminism and shame over his paternity, which form part of the
film's plot.[9] Some people have both a matronymic and a patronymic: for
example, Dagur Bergþóruson Eggertsson ("the son of Bergþóra and Eggert"),
the mayor of Reykjavík since 2014. Another example is the girl Blær
mentioned above: her full name is Blær Bjarkardóttir Rúnarsdóttir ("the
daughter of Björk and Rúnar").
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_name#Matronymic_naming_as_a_choice>
The other thing I’ve noticed about the use of Icelandic names is that
everyone addresses each other with their first name. So no referring to
your boss as Mr Blogs, he’s just Fred.
Charles Ellson
2021-01-05 22:49:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Tweed
Post by Roland Perry
It's just a cultural thing, like many Europeans have names like Magnus
Magnus*son*, and innumerable similar Slavic suffices.
Slavic? I thought it came from the Icelandic. There surnames come from the
first name of the parent.
So Magnusson is the male offspring of a chap whose first name was Magnus
<something else>son. If he also had a female offspring her surname would be
Magnusdottir. (Magnus’s daughter)
It made for an interesting telephone book....
It must make genealogy "interesting" because every generation of a family
will have a different surname, as will brothers and sisters.
In Icelandic, do *both* the sons and the daughters take the father's first
name? I have vague memories of being told that daughter's sometimes take the
mother's first name - so Magnus and Oddny (*) might have a son with a
surname Magnusson and a daughter with a surname Oddnydottir (rather than
Magnusdottir).
Do Icelandic women generally take their husband's surname after marriage or
do they normally / always keep their maiden surname?
(*) The only Icelandic person I knew was a woman with this rather unusual (I
hesitate to say Odd!) first name.
You will also find patronymics in very old Welsh and Scottish records,
usually where the names have been given in Welsh or Gaelic.
Basil Jet
2021-01-05 16:57:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
The first name is the one that sticks in people's minds. If they'd
wanted to called it the Elizabeth Line, they should have used that
name from the start. Having first called it Crossrail, that's the name
they should stick with.
Like for Opal Fruits, Marathon and Jif.
I hadn't even realised that the New Severn Bridge was now called the
Prince of Wales Bridge.
I've never heard a member of the public refer to the Dartford Bridge as
the QE II bridge.
I call it the Dartford Crossing, unless I really need to distinguish
between the n/b and the s/b.

"Dartford Bridge" is a small old bridge in the town centre.
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
1979 - Earcom 2 Contradiction - Joy Division
Roland Perry
2021-01-05 19:44:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
The first name is the one that sticks in people's minds. If they'd
wanted to called it the Elizabeth Line, they should have used that
name from the start. Having first called it Crossrail, that's the
name they should stick with.
Like for Opal Fruits, Marathon and Jif.
I hadn't even realised that the New Severn Bridge was now called the
Prince of Wales Bridge.
I've never heard a member of the public refer to the Dartford Bridge
as the QE II bridge.
I call it the Dartford Crossing,
I've always called it the Dartford Tunnel, although that's a bit out of
date since they also built a bridge.
Post by Basil Jet
unless I really need to distinguish between the n/b and the s/b.
"Dartford Bridge" is a small old bridge in the town centre.
--
Roland Perry
Sam Wilson
2021-01-05 15:00:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
Why *do* Americans insist on using their middle initials/names on official
documentation? Does "John H Smith" sound more impressive than "John Smith"?
Apparently it does. Harry S Truman was given his middle initial in order
to suggest a middle name that he didn’t actually have.
Post by NY
And why do so many Americans have Roman numerals after their names? Is it
because children are named after their father, grandfather and great
grandfather (all called John Smith, distinguished by I, II, III and IV
suffix) rather than being adventurous and choosing different forenames for
each generation?
It’s their way of creating a dynasty. It usually goes Sr, Jr, III, etc.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Recliner
2021-01-05 15:25:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by NY
Why *do* Americans insist on using their middle initials/names on official
documentation? Does "John H Smith" sound more impressive than "John Smith"?
Apparently it does. Harry S Truman was given his middle initial in order
to suggest a middle name that he didn’t actually have.
Post by NY
And why do so many Americans have Roman numerals after their names? Is it
because children are named after their father, grandfather and great
grandfather (all called John Smith, distinguished by I, II, III and IV
suffix) rather than being adventurous and choosing different forenames for
each generation?
It’s their way of creating a dynasty. It usually goes Sr, Jr, III, etc.
I suppose it's their substitute for a royal family.
Arthur Figgis
2021-01-05 21:27:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by NY
Why *do* Americans insist on using their middle initials/names on official
documentation? Does "John H Smith" sound more impressive than "John Smith"?
Apparently it does. Harry S Truman was given his middle initial in order
to suggest a middle name that he didn’t actually have.
Leading to this endless debate, which helps to keep Wikipedia editors
and such like from wandering the streets:
https://www.trumanlibrary.gov/education/trivia/use-of-period-after-s-truman-name
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Sam Wilson
2021-01-05 22:28:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by NY
Why *do* Americans insist on using their middle initials/names on official
documentation? Does "John H Smith" sound more impressive than "John Smith"?
Apparently it does. Harry S Truman was given his middle initial in order
to suggest a middle name that he didn’t actually have.
Leading to this endless debate, which helps to keep Wikipedia editors
https://www.trumanlibrary.gov/education/trivia/use-of-period-after-s-truman-name
:-)

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Certes
2021-01-06 01:39:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by NY
Why *do* Americans insist on using their middle initials/names on official
documentation? Does "John H Smith" sound more impressive than "John Smith"?
Apparently it does. Harry S Truman was given his middle initial in order
to suggest a middle name that he didn’t actually have.
Leading to this endless debate, which helps to keep Wikipedia editors
https://www.trumanlibrary.gov/education/trivia/use-of-period-after-s-truman-name
:-)
Sam
Perhaps both are correct. The full name is Harry S Truman. Like all
names, the middle one can be abbreviated to its initial plus a dot:
Harry S. Truman.
Sam Wilson
2021-01-06 08:54:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Certes
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by NY
Why *do* Americans insist on using their middle initials/names on official
documentation? Does "John H Smith" sound more impressive than "John Smith"?
Apparently it does. Harry S Truman was given his middle initial in order
to suggest a middle name that he didn’t actually have.
Leading to this endless debate, which helps to keep Wikipedia editors
https://www.trumanlibrary.gov/education/trivia/use-of-period-after-s-truman-name
:-)
Sam
Perhaps both are correct. The full name is Harry S Truman. Like all
Harry S. Truman.
Abbreviated. Right.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Roland Perry
2021-01-06 07:42:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Certes
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by NY
Why *do* Americans insist on using their middle initials/names on official
documentation? Does "John H Smith" sound more impressive than "John Smith"?
Apparently it does. Harry S Truman was given his middle initial in order
to suggest a middle name that he didn’t actually have.
Leading to this endless debate, which helps to keep Wikipedia editors
https://www.trumanlibrary.gov/education/trivia/use-of-period-after-s-t
ruman-name
:-)
Sam
Perhaps both are correct. The full name is Harry S Truman. Like all
Harry S. Truman.
A colleague back in the day, who didn't have a middle name, filled in an
order form for business cards, and duly got back a few boxes of:

Fred N.A. Blogs
--
Roland Perry
Sam Wilson
2021-01-06 09:31:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Certes
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by NY
Why *do* Americans insist on using their middle initials/names on official
documentation? Does "John H Smith" sound more impressive than "John Smith"?
Apparently it does. Harry S Truman was given his middle initial in order
to suggest a middle name that he didn’t actually have.
Leading to this endless debate, which helps to keep Wikipedia editors
https://www.trumanlibrary.gov/education/trivia/use-of-period-after-s-t
ruman-name
:-)
Sam
Perhaps both are correct. The full name is Harry S Truman. Like all
Harry S. Truman.
A colleague back in the day, who didn't have a middle name, filled in an
Fred N.A. Blogs
:-)

On of the UoEd’s schools used to use login names based on initials but they
were at least 3 characters long. People without a middle name got an “x”
inserted, so S.... W.... (not me) was “sxw”. It looked odd when you first
saw one - “oh, I didn’t know Steve’s middle name was Xavier...”

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Roland Perry
2021-01-06 10:00:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
On of the UoEd’s schools used to use login names based on initials but they
were at least 3 characters long. People without a middle name got an “x”
inserted, so S.... W.... (not me) was “sxw”. It looked odd when you first
saw one - “oh, I didn’t know Steve’s middle name was Xavier...”
There's still some cachet in having an ongoing login with "1" as a
suffix in Cambridge. Maybe other places too.
--
Roland Perry
Certes
2021-01-06 15:34:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sam Wilson
On of the UoEd’s schools used to use login names based on initials but they
were at least 3 characters long.  People without a middle name got an “x”
inserted, so S.... W.... (not me) was “sxw”.   It looked odd when you
first
saw one - “oh, I didn’t know Steve’s middle name was Xavier...”
There's still some cachet in having an ongoing login with "1" as a
suffix in Cambridge. Maybe other places too.
Especially one of the original four-character logins (RXP1, etc.)
NY
2021-01-06 10:15:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Roland Perry
A colleague back in the day, who didn't have a middle name, filled in an
Fred N.A. Blogs
:-)
On of the UoEd’s schools used to use login names based on initials but they
were at least 3 characters long. People without a middle name got an “x”
inserted, so S.... W.... (not me) was “sxw”. It looked odd when you first
saw one - “oh, I didn’t know Steve’s middle name was Xavier...”
It's an interesting difference between UK and US: here in the UK middle
names and initials are rarely used - almost never in the printed name below
a handwritten signature or in the salutation ("Dear ...") on a letter. And
very rarely in official lists (examination results etc). And not on signs on
office doors. In the US, a middle initial seems to be mandatory.

The only time I've seen middle initials used at work is on circulation lists
for documents (in the days when the same copy of a document was passed from
person to person and then to the archive) when initials (all of them) are
used: each recipient crosses off their initials before sending to the next
person on the list. I worked in a department where three out of the eight
people used their middle name or a variant of their name, and it got
confusing:

MEL was "Betty Long"
BML was "Maureen Lee"

(people always got those two the wrong way round)
s***@grumpysods.com
2021-01-06 10:29:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 10:15:13 -0000
Post by NY
inserted, so S.... W.... (not me) was “sxw”. It looked odd when you
first
saw one - “oh, I didn’t know Steve’s middle name was Xavier...”
It's an interesting difference between UK and US: here in the UK middle
names and initials are rarely used - almost never in the printed name below
a handwritten signature or in the salutation ("Dear ...") on a letter. And
very rarely in official lists (examination results etc). And not on signs on
office doors. In the US, a middle initial seems to be mandatory.
Possibly because a lot of americans are also self important and insecure
which is why so many of them have some need to define themselves as [something]
American - eg italian, black, irish - even if the last time anyone in their
family saw ireland from anything other than 30K feet it was 4 generations ago.
They all need to belong to some subgroup to feel complete.
Roland Perry
2021-01-06 10:29:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by Roland Perry
A colleague back in the day, who didn't have a middle name, filled in an
Fred N.A. Blogs
:-)
On of the UoEd’s schools used to use login names based on initials
but they
were at least 3 characters long. People without a middle name got an “x”
inserted, so S.... W.... (not me) was “sxw”. It looked odd when you first
saw one - “oh, I didn’t know Steve’s middle name was Xavier...”
It's an interesting difference between UK and US: here in the UK middle
names and initials are rarely used - almost never in the printed name
below a handwritten signature or in the salutation ("Dear ...") on a
letter. And very rarely in official lists (examination results etc).
And not on signs on office doors. In the US, a middle initial seems to
be mandatory.
But in the UK very often used in a nickname; DNA - Douglas Adams, for
example. Or his one-time classmate who wrote the worst poetry: PNMG.
--
Roland Perry
NY
2021-01-06 11:39:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by NY
It's an interesting difference between UK and US: here in the UK middle
names and initials are rarely used - almost never in the printed name
below a handwritten signature or in the salutation ("Dear ...") on a
letter. And very rarely in official lists (examination results etc). And
not on signs on office doors. In the US, a middle initial seems to be
mandatory.
But in the UK very often used in a nickname; DNA - Douglas Adams, for
example. Or his one-time classmate who wrote the worst poetry: PNMG.
The best nickname (nominative determinism?) was the head of department in
the electronic engineering department where I worked. He was known as Bill
Taylor but his nickname was J-Omega. Then I saw his initials and the penny
dropped: JWT (W=Bill). Electronic engineering formula of quantities that
vary over time often have terms that involve j omega t (square root of minus
1, angular frequency = 2 pi f, time).
Sam Wilson
2021-01-06 12:01:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
The best nickname (nominative determinism?) was the head of department in
the electronic engineering department where I worked. He was known as Bill
Taylor but his nickname was J-Omega. Then I saw his initials and the penny
dropped: JWT (W=Bill). Electronic engineering formula of quantities that
vary over time often have terms that involve j omega t (square root of minus
1, angular frequency = 2 pi f, time).
:-)

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
Recliner
2021-01-05 15:17:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
They presumably hope HM will perform the opening ceremony when "One's" line
is formally opened under its official brand. I assume the Elizabeth Line
name will be used once the central tunnel and new stations are opened, even
if all the sections don't yet have through services. So that could happen
this autumn.
I wonder how many people will use the name "Elizabeth Line" in normal
parlance, compared with those that call it "Crossrail [Line]". I bet it
gets abbreviated to "Liz Line" ;-)
Journalists and political people see to be the only ones who use the new
name for the New Severn Bridge. The rest of us still call it the New
Severn Bridge.
Old habits die hard and I'm sure the same will apply to Crossrail for a
long while.
I agree. The first name is the one that sticks in people's minds. If they'd
wanted to called it the Elizabeth Line, they should have used that name from
the start. Having first called it Crossrail, that's the name they should
stick with.
The name changed because 'they' changed. The Elizabeth Line moniker was Al
Kemal's idea, while he was mayor — he's obviously fond of rebranding. I'm
not sure if anyone else was enthusiastic, but it was hard for people to
object publicly.

There is a history of renaming London line: the Bakerloo, Jubilee, Northern
and Piccadilly lines were not the original names for those lines, and
London Overground is also a rebranding of a number of old (mainly 19th
century) lines. Even Thameslink is a 1980s rebranding of an 1866 line that
closed to passengers in 1916.
Arthur Figgis
2021-01-05 21:20:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
They presumably hope HM will perform the opening ceremony when "One's" line
is formally opened under its official brand. I assume the Elizabeth Line
name will be used once the central tunnel and new stations are opened, even
if all the sections don't yet have through services. So that could happen
this autumn.
I wonder how many people will use the name "Elizabeth Line" in normal
parlance, compared with those that call it "Crossrail [Line]". I bet
it gets abbreviated to "Liz Line" ;-)
Journalists and political people see to be the only ones who use the new
name for the New Severn Bridge.  The rest of us still call it the New
Severn Bridge.
Old habits die hard and I'm sure the same will apply to Crossrail for a
long while.
It might depend on the rate of turnover of people, which in London could
be relatively high. There will eventually be people who don't know it as
anything else.

A while back someone at work pointed out that the central London bridge
were were referring to hadn't wobbled in his lifetime.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Basil Jet
2021-01-05 23:45:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
They presumably hope HM will perform the opening ceremony when "One's" line
is formally opened under its official brand. I assume the Elizabeth Line
name will be used once the central tunnel and new stations are opened, even
if all the sections don't yet have through services. So that could happen
this autumn.
I wonder how many people will use the name "Elizabeth Line" in normal
parlance, compared with those that call it "Crossrail [Line]". I bet it
gets abbreviated to "Liz Line" ;-)
It has aircon, unlike the tube, so I'm calling it "Unsweaty Betty".
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
1988 - Death Is Eeklo
NY
2021-01-05 11:38:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
<https://content.tfl.gov.uk/standard-tube-map.pdf>
That link is timing out for me. The one which works is
https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/standard-tube-map.pdf - that's
dated December 2020.
Recliner
2021-01-05 11:48:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Recliner
<https://content.tfl.gov.uk/standard-tube-map.pdf>
That link is timing out for me. The one which works is
https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/standard-tube-map.pdf - that's
dated December 2020.
Yes, the first link seems to have just been replaced by the one you've
supplied. It was working this morning.
Roger Lynn
2021-01-06 00:09:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
<https://content.tfl.gov.uk/standard-tube-map.pdf>
The trams fare zone makes a right mess of the zones in south London. It
looks like zone 5 is inside zone 4 around Sutton. It was a while before I
noticed the "London Trams fare zone" label on the right to explain the
confusion. I can't remember where I saw it, but one version of the map used
a different colour for the tram zone, which was much clearer.

The London Rail and Tube[0] map does a less bad job by moving the Thameslink
Mitcham Junction station to the other side of the tram line, but still
suffers from the same problem of isolating small parts of fare zones at
South Wimbledon, West Croydon and Elmers End.

[0]
<https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/London%20Rail%20and%20Tube%20QR%20Map%20December%202020(m).pdf>
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