Discussion:
Dirty air killing 25x as many as car crashes
(too old to reply)
Recliner
2020-01-27 11:26:50 UTC
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<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dirty-air-is-killing-25-times-more-than-car-crashes-x09pp52s3?shareToken=1d8301dddec30b9b2a47e85a2ecdb7d5>
Peter Able
2020-01-29 16:02:19 UTC
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Post by Recliner
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dirty-air-is-killing-25-times-more-than-car-crashes-x09pp52s3?shareToken=1d8301dddec30b9b2a47e85a2ecdb7d5>
Ironic that the article associates particulates with cars when,
nationally, the greater risk will probably be from wood-burning.

PA
b***@nowhere.org
2020-01-29 17:20:34 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 16:02:19 +0000
Post by Recliner
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dirty-air-is-killing-25-times-more-than-car
-crashes-x09pp52s3?shareToken=1d8301dddec30b9b2a47e85a2ecdb7d5>
Ironic that the article associates particulates with cars when,
nationally, the greater risk will probably be from wood-burning.
PA
It would be interesting to see what the quality of air in a city street and
inside your average hut/house anytime from the neolithic to the 1950s before
the clean air act. I suspect today we're breathing cleaner air than anyone has
for a few thousand years. And imagine a house before electricity or gas
heated by a wood or coal burning hearth and lit by candles.
Recliner
2020-01-29 20:09:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 16:02:19 +0000
Post by Recliner
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dirty-air-is-killing-25-times-more-than-car
-crashes-x09pp52s3?shareToken=1d8301dddec30b9b2a47e85a2ecdb7d5>
Ironic that the article associates particulates with cars when,
nationally, the greater risk will probably be from wood-burning.
PA
It would be interesting to see what the quality of air in a city street and
inside your average hut/house anytime from the neolithic to the 1950s before
the clean air act. I suspect today we're breathing cleaner air than anyone has
for a few thousand years. And imagine a house before electricity or gas
heated by a wood or coal burning hearth and lit by candles.
Particulates would have been much worse then, but what about NOx?

Lots more people seem to get asthma these days.
b***@nowhere.org
2020-01-30 10:23:21 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:09:06 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 16:02:19 +0000
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dirty-air-is-killing-25-times-more-than-car
Post by b***@nowhere.org
Post by Recliner
-crashes-x09pp52s3?shareToken=1d8301dddec30b9b2a47e85a2ecdb7d5>
Ironic that the article associates particulates with cars when,
nationally, the greater risk will probably be from wood-burning.
PA
It would be interesting to see what the quality of air in a city street and
inside your average hut/house anytime from the neolithic to the 1950s before
the clean air act. I suspect today we're breathing cleaner air than anyone
has
Post by b***@nowhere.org
for a few thousand years. And imagine a house before electricity or gas
heated by a wood or coal burning hearth and lit by candles.
Particulates would have been much worse then, but what about NOx?
Don't know. Are wood and coal fires hot enough to create it? I suspect coal
fires would have released a lot of SO2 though which arguably is worse.
Post by Recliner
Lots more people seem to get asthma these days.
Indeed, and I'm one of them though not badly. Wish I knew what caused it but
its not city pollution as I get it just as much in the middle of the
countryside.
Peter Able
2020-01-30 12:08:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:09:06 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 16:02:19 +0000
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dirty-air-is-killing-25-times-more-than-car
Post by b***@nowhere.org
Post by Recliner
-crashes-x09pp52s3?shareToken=1d8301dddec30b9b2a47e85a2ecdb7d5>
Ironic that the article associates particulates with cars when,
nationally, the greater risk will probably be from wood-burning.
PA
It would be interesting to see what the quality of air in a city street and
inside your average hut/house anytime from the neolithic to the 1950s before
the clean air act. I suspect today we're breathing cleaner air than anyone
has
Post by b***@nowhere.org
for a few thousand years. And imagine a house before electricity or gas
heated by a wood or coal burning hearth and lit by candles.
Particulates would have been much worse then, but what about NOx?
Don't know. Are wood and coal fires hot enough to create it? I suspect coal
fires would have released a lot of SO2 though which arguably is worse.
Post by Recliner
Lots more people seem to get asthma these days.
Indeed, and I'm one of them though not badly. Wish I knew what caused it but
its not city pollution as I get it just as much in the middle of the
countryside.
I'm not sure that it worth speculating about the past. The point you've
both missed is lifespan and lifestyle. In the days of candles, those
who made it through all of the childhood pestilences - therefore the
selected, tough ones - would die before they got to ages we would feel
cheated to die at.

The challenge is to try to set today's agenda. Politicians are so
ignorant and easily conned when it comes to science. Look at the
vacillation about diesel; the gross misunderstanding of the
environmental and health issues surrounding the burning of biomass; the
mixed messages and lack of leadership surrounding wood-burning -
particularly domestic wood-burning.

As for Boltar's asthma - you need to move to the coast - that's the only
place to go to depress it.

PA
Roland Perry
2020-01-30 14:01:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Able
The challenge is to try to set today's agenda. Politicians are so
ignorant and easily conned when it comes to science. Look at the
vacillation about diesel; the gross misunderstanding of the
environmental and health issues surrounding the burning of biomass;
I've always said that growing stuff, then burning it again, is futile as
a way to reduce carbon emissions. What you need to do is grow stuff,
then capture it. For example using wood to build things with.
Post by Peter Able
the mixed messages and lack of leadership surrounding wood-burning -
particularly domestic wood-burning.
What's your issue with domestic wood-burning. Pollution or CO2. I have a
wood-burner, but don't consume anything other than waste wood that I'd
otherwise take to the tip, and then they'd chip it and burn it... The
stove sees to consume any smoke that less sophisticated grates might
generate.
--
Roland Perry
n***@moo.uklinux.net
2020-01-31 23:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Peter Able
The challenge is to try to set today's agenda. Politicians are so
ignorant and easily conned when it comes to science. Look at the
vacillation about diesel; the gross misunderstanding of the
environmental and health issues surrounding the burning of biomass;
I've always said that growing stuff, then burning it again, is futile as
a way to reduce carbon emissions. What you need to do is grow stuff,
then capture it.
On a related note:

"Negative carbon dioxide emissions"

https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.4389

#Paul
Peter Able
2020-02-01 12:28:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
The challenge is to try to set today's agenda.  Politicians are so
ignorant and easily conned when it comes to science.  Look at the
vacillation about diesel; the gross misunderstanding of the
environmental and health issues surrounding the burning of biomass;
I've always said that growing stuff, then burning it again, is futile as
a way to reduce carbon emissions. What you need to do is grow stuff,
then capture it. For example using wood to build things with.
Agreed. The "green aura" around biomass is the road to hell.
Post by Roland Perry
the mixed messages and lack of leadership surrounding wood-burning -
particularly domestic wood-burning.
What's your issue with domestic wood-burning. Pollution or CO2. I have a
wood-burner, but don't consume anything other than waste wood that I'd
otherwise take to the tip, and then they'd chip it and burn it... The
stove sees to consume any smoke that less sophisticated grates might
generate.
Particulates. Again the green aura around wood burners is very
misleading. I don't dispute that you do the right thing, Roland - but
the majority do not. Government advisory approval of good burners is a
start but how that as well as the use of low particulate rate fuel is to
be enforced is just not being addressed.

And the only ideas eventually adopted will need to be draconian.

PA - 20+ years in the vapour and particulate protection and detection
industry.
Marland
2020-02-02 11:44:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
What's your issue with domestic wood-burning. Pollution or CO2. I have a
wood-burner, but don't consume anything other than waste wood that I'd
otherwise take to the tip, and then they'd chip it and burn it... The
stove sees to consume any smoke that less sophisticated grates might
generate.
JOI what is the source of your waste wood,are you lucky enough to have a
source of offcuts from a carpentry business like I once had ? I It saved
them paying to get it taken away as waste.
That stopped when the business closed and I have long since moved anyway
and have to use harvested wood from a local source near the village
subject.
A lot of small businesses that produce waste wood will no longer
supply such offcuts to a casual user
as technically it is waste and whoever carries it off should have the right
licences to deal with it and more recently with rise of the pelleted wood
as fuel such clean waste has a value and will be collected commercially.

The rise of urban trendy woodburner has also lead toa type of user who
thinks they are being green by scavenging builders skips and sites for
waste wood, I would never find enough that way* but
I suppose in a busy city it is possible . Unfortunately their green
credentials go up the chimney along with the noxious substances that such
wood which has been treated with various preservative treatments , paint
and varnish coatings to stop it rotting. CO2 is quite benign compared to
what comes off some of those.

*Though they won’t have access to the odd tree that gets blown down in an
adjoining field.
I also get a little bit from a local Spaniel who has a penchant for
collecting bits of fallen branch two or three times the dogs length on its
morning walk in nearby woods, not many mornings go by without
such a branch about 2” diameter 3ft long being dropped by the gate. Once
dried it makes kindling
and the cost is an occasional biscuit.


GH
Roland Perry
2020-02-02 16:10:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Roland Perry
What's your issue with domestic wood-burning. Pollution or CO2. I have a
wood-burner, but don't consume anything other than waste wood that I'd
otherwise take to the tip, and then they'd chip it and burn it... The
stove sees to consume any smoke that less sophisticated grates might
generate.
JOI what is the source of your waste wood,
It's partly a big pile of old fences inherited (as a pile) from the
previous owner. And partly DIY wood offcuts I've been carting around for
years and have finally decided I'm never going to have a use for.
--
Roland Perry
b***@nowhere.org
2020-01-30 16:06:26 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 30 Jan 2020 12:08:07 +0000
Post by Peter Able
Post by b***@nowhere.org
Indeed, and I'm one of them though not badly. Wish I knew what caused it but
its not city pollution as I get it just as much in the middle of the
countryside.
I'm not sure that it worth speculating about the past. The point you've
both missed is lifespan and lifestyle. In the days of candles, those
who made it through all of the childhood pestilences - therefore the
selected, tough ones - would die before they got to ages we would feel
cheated to die at.
Not necessarily - it depended highly on class and therefor working conditions
and diet. If you were one of the peasents you'd probably check out in your 40s
but if you were a merchant or higher then plenty lived to ripe old ages.
Post by Peter Able
As for Boltar's asthma - you need to move to the coast - that's the only
place to go to depress it.
Possibly, but like most people I have to live near where the work is. A 2
hour each way commute from the coast in some Southern or SWR cattle wagon
isn't my idea of a good work-life balance.
Recliner
2020-01-30 12:13:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:09:06 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 16:02:19 +0000
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dirty-air-is-killing-25-times-more-than-car
Post by b***@nowhere.org
Post by Recliner
-crashes-x09pp52s3?shareToken=1d8301dddec30b9b2a47e85a2ecdb7d5>
Ironic that the article associates particulates with cars when,
nationally, the greater risk will probably be from wood-burning.
PA
It would be interesting to see what the quality of air in a city street and
inside your average hut/house anytime from the neolithic to the 1950s before
the clean air act. I suspect today we're breathing cleaner air than anyone
has
Post by b***@nowhere.org
for a few thousand years. And imagine a house before electricity or gas
heated by a wood or coal burning hearth and lit by candles.
Particulates would have been much worse then, but what about NOx?
Don't know. Are wood and coal fires hot enough to create it?
I don't think so. Also, engines create the much more dangerous very small
particulates (PM2.5), whereas wood and coal fires produce the less
dangerous (because they don't penetrate the lungs) larger particulates.
Post by b***@nowhere.org
I suspect coal
fires would have released a lot of SO2 though which arguably is worse.
Post by Recliner
Lots more people seem to get asthma these days.
Indeed, and I'm one of them though not badly. Wish I knew what caused it but
its not city pollution as I get it just as much in the middle of the
countryside.
I think city pollution helped cause it, but other sources can then trigger
it.
Roland Perry
2020-01-30 13:55:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.org
Post by Recliner
Particulates would have been much worse then, but what about NOx?
Don't know. Are wood and coal fires hot enough to create it? I suspect coal
fires would have released a lot of SO2 though which arguably is worse.
Acid rain.
--
Roland Perry
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