Discussion:
ES: Crossrail at risk of being delayed even further
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Recliner
2019-07-12 13:44:13 UTC
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Crossrail is at major risk of having its opening delayed by even
longer than already feared and requiring even more public money, it
emerged today.

The crisis-hit line has already soared £2.8bn in cost to £17.6bn and
its opening is due between October 2020 and March 2021, the original
December 2018 date having been abandoned a year ago.

A series of high-level warnings by Crossrail’s independent watchdog,
the engineering firm Jacobs, were due to be made public by Transport
for London today.

It is understood that these will reveal that the project faces
additional “cost pressures and scheduling pressures” that make opening
it within the promised six-month window and expanded budget even more
challenging.

They will raise concerns that the opening schedule remains “too
optimistic” - though it is not thought that Jacobs calls for the date
to be delayed further.

Jacobs is understood to fear that a “number of longer-term risks may
not be receiving the focus necessary to ensure that the schedule and
cost are delivered in line with expectations”.

A “persistent trend” in rising costs, low productivity levels, missed
targets, and a lack of “robust” risk analysis are highlighted.
Concerns about the new signalling and the new £1bn fleet of trains
remain. One part of the scheme has been given a “red” rating.

Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project’s transparency. The
alerts relate to Jacobs analysis throughout April and May.

... continues in:

<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/crossrail-at-risk-of-being-delayed-even-further-a4188451.html>
Roland Perry
2019-07-12 13:50:04 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project’s transparency.
Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite
being in charge the last three and a bit years?
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-07-12 14:48:05 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project’s transparency.
Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite
being in charge the last three and a bit years?
It's not clear which politician was in charge: responsibility seems to
have been shared between the DfT and TfL. Either way, and perhaps as a
consequence, neither was providing much supervision or oversight. Khan
now seems to be much more in charge and taking an interest, as it's
clear that TfL will have to suffer the consequence of delays and
overspends.
"About Crossrail Ltd
Crossrail Limited, established in 2001, is the company that has been
set up to build the new railway that will become known as the
Elizabeth line when it opens through central London.
It is a wholly owned subsidiary of Transport for London (TfL)..."
No hiding place for the Mayor!!
I'm no fan of Labour or Khan, but it's by no means obvious that the
blame lies with Khan, or Boris, or elsewhere. If the Mayor is being told
everything's fine, how can they know otherwise?
As I understand it, to avoid constant political interference, Crossrail was
set up with quite a lot of autonomy for the management, so long as the
project was on time and on budget. This gave the management a strong
motivation to report that all was well long after things started to go
wrong.

In retrospect, it should have been obvious that some stations were
obviously late, as was train testing, but I guess everyone was just happy
to get reassuringly good news in the review meetings.
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2019-07-12 19:31:23 UTC
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Permalink
On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:48:05 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project’s transparency.
Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite
being in charge the last three and a bit years?
It's not clear which politician was in charge: responsibility seems to
have been shared between the DfT and TfL. Either way, and perhaps as a
consequence, neither was providing much supervision or oversight. Khan
now seems to be much more in charge and taking an interest, as it's
clear that TfL will have to suffer the consequence of delays and
overspends.
"About Crossrail Ltd
Crossrail Limited, established in 2001, is the company that has been
set up to build the new railway that will become known as the
Elizabeth line when it opens through central London.
It is a wholly owned subsidiary of Transport for London (TfL)..."
No hiding place for the Mayor!!
I'm no fan of Labour or Khan, but it's by no means obvious that the
blame lies with Khan, or Boris, or elsewhere. If the Mayor is being told
everything's fine, how can they know otherwise?
Perhaps when Boris becomes PM he can repent for his sins as mayor and do
everyone a favour by putting a bullet in HS2. A high speed line to complement
the WCML might be a good idea, but not for the 11 figure sums being quoted.
There are far better railway infrastructure projects that could be spent on
IMO.
Guy Gorton
2019-07-13 08:55:43 UTC
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Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:48:05 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project’s transparency.
Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite
being in charge the last three and a bit years?
It's not clear which politician was in charge: responsibility seems to
have been shared between the DfT and TfL. Either way, and perhaps as a
consequence, neither was providing much supervision or oversight. Khan
now seems to be much more in charge and taking an interest, as it's
clear that TfL will have to suffer the consequence of delays and
overspends.
"About Crossrail Ltd
Crossrail Limited, established in 2001, is the company that has been
set up to build the new railway that will become known as the
Elizabeth line when it opens through central London.
It is a wholly owned subsidiary of Transport for London (TfL)..."
No hiding place for the Mayor!!
I'm no fan of Labour or Khan, but it's by no means obvious that the
blame lies with Khan, or Boris, or elsewhere. If the Mayor is being told
everything's fine, how can they know otherwise?
Perhaps when Boris becomes PM he can repent for his sins as mayor and do
everyone a favour by putting a bullet in HS2. A high speed line to complement
the WCML might be a good idea, but not for the 11 figure sums being quoted.
There are far better railway infrastructure projects that could be spent on
IMO.
A reasonable opinion but large areas of Buckinghamshire and
Hertfordshire have already been disfigured by the works, so lets not
make all that inconvenience be for nothing.

Guy Gorton
Peter Able
2019-07-13 08:25:58 UTC
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Post by Guy Gorton
A reasonable opinion but large areas of Buckinghamshire and
Hertfordshire have already been disfigured by the works, so lets not
make all that inconvenience be for nothing.
Guy Gorton
No, No, No !

Classic accountancy nostrum:

"The first loss is the cheapest loss"

i.e. when a project is delinquent, write off the costs to date and pull
out asap.
tim...
2019-07-13 10:22:53 UTC
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Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:48:05 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the projectâ?Ts transparency.
Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite
being in charge the last three and a bit years?
It's not clear which politician was in charge: responsibility seems to
have been shared between the DfT and TfL. Either way, and perhaps as a
consequence, neither was providing much supervision or oversight. Khan
now seems to be much more in charge and taking an interest, as it's
clear that TfL will have to suffer the consequence of delays and
overspends.
"About Crossrail Ltd
Crossrail Limited, established in 2001, is the company that has been
set up to build the new railway that will become known as the
Elizabeth line when it opens through central London.
It is a wholly owned subsidiary of Transport for London (TfL)..."
No hiding place for the Mayor!!
I'm no fan of Labour or Khan, but it's by no means obvious that the
blame lies with Khan, or Boris, or elsewhere. If the Mayor is being told
everything's fine, how can they know otherwise?
Perhaps when Boris becomes PM he can repent for his sins as mayor and do
everyone a favour by putting a bullet in HS2. A high speed line to complement
the WCML might be a good idea, but not for the 11 figure sums being quoted.
There are far better railway infrastructure projects that could be spent on
IMO.
A reasonable opinion but large areas of Buckinghamshire and
Hertfordshire have already been disfigured by the works, so lets not
make all that inconvenience be for nothing.
the fallacy of the sunk costs

tim
Robin
2019-07-13 12:54:37 UTC
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Post by tim...
the fallacy of the sunk costs
That (like loss aversion and status quo bias) is an issue with the
mental state of decision takers. It's not an argument against decisions
on whether or not to proceed based on objective assessments of the
options as they stand now - taking account of both work already done and
lessons from that work for the likely future costs.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Guy Gorton
2019-07-13 15:11:21 UTC
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Post by Robin
Post by tim...
the fallacy of the sunk costs
That (like loss aversion and status quo bias) is an issue with the
mental state of decision takers. It's not an argument against decisions
on whether or not to proceed based on objective assessments of the
options as they stand now - taking account of both work already done and
lessons from that work for the likely future costs.
I did not mention costs, merely inconvenience. Costs there have
certainly been but not payable by the public purse but by those
inconvenienced. Roads closed, diversions in place (one road closed
for 9 years we are told - a road that I often used but now have a
significant detour).

Guy Gorton
tim...
2019-07-14 09:53:39 UTC
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Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Robin
Post by tim...
the fallacy of the sunk costs
That (like loss aversion and status quo bias) is an issue with the
mental state of decision takers. It's not an argument against decisions
on whether or not to proceed based on objective assessments of the
options as they stand now - taking account of both work already done and
lessons from that work for the likely future costs.
I did not mention costs, merely inconvenience.
inconvenience *is* a cost

just not one borne by the developer

tim
Robin
2019-07-14 10:59:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Robin
Post by tim...
the fallacy of the sunk costs
That (like loss aversion and status quo bias) is an issue with the
mental state of decision takers. It's not an argument against decisions
on whether or not to proceed based on objective assessments of the
options as they stand now - taking account of both work already done and
lessons from that work for the likely future costs.
I did not mention costs, merely inconvenience. Costs there have
certainly been but not payable by the public purse but by those
inconvenienced. Roads closed, diversions in place (one road closed
for 9 years we are told - a road that I often used but now have a
significant detour).
I was commenting on "the fallacy of the sunk costs".

But I agree with tim... that inconvenience is a cost.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2019-07-13 15:51:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 09:55:43 +0100
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Perhaps when Boris becomes PM he can repent for his sins as mayor and do
everyone a favour by putting a bullet in HS2. A high speed line to complement
the WCML might be a good idea, but not for the 11 figure sums being quoted.
There are far better railway infrastructure projects that could be spent on
IMO.
A reasonable opinion but large areas of Buckinghamshire and
Hertfordshire have already been disfigured by the works, so lets not
make all that inconvenience be for nothing.
Better to stop now before the real sums start to be spent. And the trees
will grow back.
michael adams
2019-07-13 13:00:38 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Recliner
Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.
Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge
the last three and a bit years?
Being in charge ?

Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in
Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous
responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London.

Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking
overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect
therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole.
If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves open
to ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as
yourself.
Far better to negotiate themselves a lucrative long-term contract and then walk
off into the sunset *with pockets bulging when it all goes tits
up.


michael adams

*or at least until the next nice little earner comes along.

...
Roland Perry
2019-07-13 13:11:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by michael adams
Post by Recliner
Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.
Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge
the last three and a bit years?
Being in charge ?
Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure
project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer
extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London.
You are confusing strategic and operational.
Post by michael adams
Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking
overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect
therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole.
The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and
strategically. Otherwise he simply disappears in a puff of logic.
Post by michael adams
If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves open
to ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as
yourself.
I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario, given
your total confusion over roles displayed above.

And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail, which
is looking vaguer and vaguer all the time.
--
Roland Perry
michael adams
2019-07-13 13:49:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by michael adams
Post by Recliner
Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.
Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge
the last three and a bit years?
Being in charge ?
Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe
would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than
does the elected Mayor of London.
You are confusing strategic and operational.
Post by michael adams
Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking
overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect
therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole.
The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he
simply disappears in a puff of logic.
But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational.

The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could
judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within
budget.

If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within
budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed
to consider when tendering for the project.

Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ?
Post by Roland Perry
Post by michael adams
If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves open
to ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as
yourself.
I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario,
So how many such major infrastructure projects have you been personally
involved in then Roland ?

That should make a good start.
Post by Roland Perry
given your total confusion over roles displayed above.
As the self proclaimed expert on the subject would you like
to hazard a guess, historically speaking, as to the percentage
of such major infrastructure projects that have ever been completed
on time and within budget ? That's discounting projects such as the
White Sea canal which made extensive use of slave labour.
Post by Roland Perry
And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail, which is looking
vaguer and vaguer all the time.
That's as good an excuse as any for lashing out blindly, I suppose.

Although rather more familiarity with the chequered history
of all such projects should perhaps have dampemned your
enthusiasm somewhat.


michael adams

...
Roland Perry
2019-07-13 14:26:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by michael adams
Post by Roland Perry
Post by michael adams
Post by Recliner
Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.
Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge
the last three and a bit years?
Being in charge ?
Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure
project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far
fewer extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of
London.
You are confusing strategic and operational.
Post by michael adams
Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable
of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in
Europe - or any aspect therein come to that wouldn't touch any such
elected position with a bargepole.
The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and
strategically. Otherwise he
simply disappears in a puff of logic.
But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational.
The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could
judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within
budget.
If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within
budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed
to consider when tendering for the project.
Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ?
I'm suggesting he should have had people monitoring what the contractors
were doing, and more to the point monitoring how well the TfL people
supposed to be managing the contractors were doing.
Post by michael adams
Post by Roland Perry
Post by michael adams
If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay
themselves open to ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven
opportunists such as yourself.
I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario,
So how many such major infrastructure projects have you been personally
involved in then Roland ?
Several. That's my original day-job.
Post by michael adams
Post by Roland Perry
given your total confusion over roles displayed above.
As the self proclaimed expert on the subject would you like
to hazard a guess, historically speaking, as to the percentage
of such major infrastructure projects that have ever been completed
on time and within budget ?
False dichotomy. First of all you have to arrive at a sensible
time/budget prediction, and then monitor how it's going. Sometimes they
over-run, but you need to know about it a great deal sooner than has
happened on Crossrail.
Post by michael adams
Post by Roland Perry
And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail,
which is looking vaguer and vaguer all the time.
That's as good an excuse as any for lashing out blindly, I suppose.
I'm critiquing based on my project management experience.
Post by michael adams
Although rather more familiarity with the chequered history
of all such projects should perhaps have dampemned your
enthusiasm somewhat.
The real question is, why didn't it dampen, much sooner, the enthusiasm
of people who should have been able to see it was running so much later
than claimed.

"A delay to the project only first became public in the summer of last
year, just weeks before the railway was supposed to open in December
2018" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47967766

Now predicted to be 2021 or later.

Some of it is really simple, such as:

"Software to allow trains to run on the new Crossrail line does not yet
exist and vital equipment is not in place, five months after the
crisis-hit project was meant to have opened, bosses have admitted."

It doesn't take a genius to ask a question like "has the software needed
to run the trains been delivered yet?".
--
Roland Perry
michael adams
2019-07-13 15:12:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by michael adams
Post by Roland Perry
Post by michael adams
Post by Recliner
Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.
Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in
charge
the last three and a bit years?
Being in charge ?
Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in
Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous
responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London.
You are confusing strategic and operational.
Post by michael adams
Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking
overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect
therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole.
The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he
simply disappears in a puff of logic.
But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational.
The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could
judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within
budget.
If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within
budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed
to consider when tendering for the project.
Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ?
I'm suggesting he should have had people monitoring what the contractors were doing,
and more to the point monitoring how well the TfL people supposed to be managing the
contractors were doing.
Really ? So its all Khan's fault ?

According to this

" Both the DfT and Transport for London (TfL) are joint sponsors
of the project, which is run through an "arms-length" body, Crossrail Ltd."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367

So are you saying that's wrong, and that the Department for Transport
had no role to play in all of this ?

As I notice you haven't mentioned them up to now.
Post by michael adams
Post by Roland Perry
Post by michael adams
If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves open to
ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as yourself.
I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario,
So how many such major infrastructure projects have you been personally
involved in then Roland ?
Several. That's my original day-job.
Post by michael adams
Post by Roland Perry
given your total confusion over roles displayed above.
As the self proclaimed expert on the subject would you like
to hazard a guess, historically speaking, as to the percentage
of such major infrastructure projects that have ever been completed
on time and within budget ?
False dichotomy. First of all you have to arrive at a sensible time/budget prediction,
and then monitor how it's going. Sometimes they over-run, but you need to know about it
a great deal sooner than has happened on Crossrail.
Post by michael adams
Post by Roland Perry
And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail, which is looking
vaguer and vaguer all the time.
That's as good an excuse as any for lashing out blindly, I suppose.
I'm critiquing based on my project management experience.
Post by michael adams
Although rather more familiarity with the chequered history
of all such projects should perhaps have dampemned your
enthusiasm somewhat.
The real question is, why didn't it dampen, much sooner, the enthusiasm of people who
should have been able to see it was running so much later than claimed.
"A delay to the project only first became public in the summer of last year, just weeks
before the railway was supposed to open in December 2018"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47967766
Now predicted to be 2021 or later.
"Software to allow trains to run on the new Crossrail line does not yet exist and vital
equipment is not in place, five months after the crisis-hit project was meant to have
opened, bosses have admitted."
It doesn't take a genius to ask a question like "has the software needed to run the
trains been delivered yet?".
But the delivery of the software and associated equipment may have
been dependent on the completion of other parts of the project
which was in the hands of other contractors.

" five months after the crisis-hit project was meant to have opened,
bosses have admitted."

That doesn't really add anything by way of explanation does it ?

Maybe monitoring those aspects of the project were the DfT's
{neglected) responsibility. Who's to know ? Do you ?


michael adams

...
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-07-13 15:47:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by michael adams
Post by michael adams
Post by Roland Perry
Post by michael adams
Post by Recliner
Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.
Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in
charge
the last three and a bit years?
Being in charge ?
Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in
Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous
responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London.
You are confusing strategic and operational.
Post by michael adams
Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking
overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect
therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole.
The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise
he
simply disappears in a puff of logic.
But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational.
The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could
judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within
budget.
If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within
budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed
to consider when tendering for the project.
Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ?
I'm suggesting he should have had people monitoring what the contractors were doing,
and more to the point monitoring how well the TfL people supposed to be managing the
contractors were doing.
Really ? So its all Khan's fault ?
According to this
" Both the DfT and Transport for London (TfL) are joint sponsors
of the project, which is run through an "arms-length" body, Crossrail Ltd."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367
So are you saying that's wrong, and that the Department for Transport
had no role to play in all of this ?
As I notice you haven't mentioned them up to now.
I mentioned it upthread, but Roland magisterially dismissed my comment.

Me: The DfT is certainly involved, too.

Roland: In as subsidiary role. The Mayor's at the top of the pile.


I didn't bother pursuing it, as Roland's in a particularly argumentative
mood today, even by his standards.
Post by michael adams
Post by michael adams
Post by Roland Perry
Post by michael adams
If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves open to
ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as yourself.
I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario,
So how many such major infrastructure projects have you been personally
involved in then Roland ?
Several. That's my original day-job.
Post by michael adams
Post by Roland Perry
given your total confusion over roles displayed above.
As the self proclaimed expert on the subject would you like
to hazard a guess, historically speaking, as to the percentage
of such major infrastructure projects that have ever been completed
on time and within budget ?
False dichotomy. First of all you have to arrive at a sensible time/budget prediction,
and then monitor how it's going. Sometimes they over-run, but you need to know about it
a great deal sooner than has happened on Crossrail.
Post by michael adams
Post by Roland Perry
And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail, which is looking
vaguer and vaguer all the time.
That's as good an excuse as any for lashing out blindly, I suppose.
I'm critiquing based on my project management experience.
Post by michael adams
Although rather more familiarity with the chequered history
of all such projects should perhaps have dampemned your
enthusiasm somewhat.
The real question is, why didn't it dampen, much sooner, the enthusiasm of people who
should have been able to see it was running so much later than claimed.
"A delay to the project only first became public in the summer of last year, just weeks
before the railway was supposed to open in December 2018"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47967766
Now predicted to be 2021 or later.
"Software to allow trains to run on the new Crossrail line does not yet exist and vital
equipment is not in place, five months after the crisis-hit project was meant to have
opened, bosses have admitted."
It doesn't take a genius to ask a question like "has the software needed to run the
trains been delivered yet?".
But the delivery of the software and associated equipment may have
been dependent on the completion of other parts of the project
which was in the hands of other contractors.
" five months after the crisis-hit project was meant to have opened,
bosses have admitted."
That doesn't really add anything by way of explanation does it ?
Maybe monitoring those aspects of the project were the DfT's
{neglected) responsibility. Who's to know ? Do you ?
Well, Roland obviously thinks he knows everything there is to know about
Crossrail…
Roland Perry
2019-07-16 08:01:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by michael adams
Post by michael adams
are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ?
I'm suggesting he should have had people monitoring what the contractors were doing,
and more to the point monitoring how well the TfL people supposed to be managing the
contractors were doing.
Really ? So its all Khan's fault ?
According to this
" Both the DfT and Transport for London (TfL) are joint sponsors
of the project, which is run through an "arms-length" body, Crossrail Ltd."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367
So are you saying that's wrong, and that the Department for Transport
had no role to play in all of this ?
As I notice you haven't mentioned them up to now.
I mentioned it upthread, but Roland magisterially dismissed my comment.
I didn't contest it, if that's what you mean.
Post by Recliner
Me: The DfT is certainly involved, too.
Roland: In as subsidiary role. The Mayor's at the top of the pile.
Of course the DfT is involved, because the majority of the Crossrail
route is on existing NR corridors. Perhaps you have over-read the word
"joint" to mean "equal".
Post by Recliner
I didn't bother pursuing it, as Roland's in a particularly argumentative
mood today, even by his standards.
If by "argumentative" you mean sticking to my guns that the Mayor has he
primary supervisory role, not one anything to do with choosing
contractors (where you get the idea I suggested that, I have no idea).
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2019-07-16 15:50:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by michael adams
It doesn't take a genius to ask a question like "has the software needed to run the
trains been delivered yet?".
But the delivery of the software and associated equipment may have
been dependent on the completion of other parts of the project
which was in the hands of other contractors.
That's not the point. When you are checking the progress of a project
there are certain easily defined milestones. One which crops up over and
over again for new trains is "the software".

And even if all the tunnels and platforms were ready on time, without
trains it's a bit embarrassing to have an opening ceremony.

But I digress. Having established that the software hasn't even been
delivered, at a time when normally one would have expected it to be well
into the testing phase, that should *ring an alarm bell*.

Later on, suitable questions can be asked about *why* it's all gone
pear-shaped (and why the Mayor wasn't warned about this earlier).

Very occasionally the answer will come back "actually, we are confident
the software will arrive in two weeks time, and against all the odds
we'll have finished testing it in eight weeks time".

At which point the project auditing person can say "OK, let's set up a
conference call for 15 days time, and pencil one in for nine week's
time, to see if it's all still on schedule".

Actually, you wouldn't; because even if the 15day call went well, you'd
schedule another for perhaps six weeks.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2019-07-14 10:20:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
I'm suggesting he should have had people monitoring what the
contractors were doing, and more to the point monitoring how well the
TfL people supposed to be managing the contractors were doing.
...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by michael adams
So how many such major infrastructure projects have you been personally
involved in then Roland ?
Several. That's my original day-job.
infrastructure ?????
There's more to infrastructure than people with muddy boots (hence
perhaps the meme "there's three kinds: good engineers, bad engineers,
and civil engineers").

To expand on Mark's example:

"This supermarket is opening next week, but you are clearly still
working on the car park, will it be ready for the Mayor to cut the
ribbon?"

Yes. The building itself was finished last month

And the shelving and fridges/feezers?

All installed and ready

What about the stock?

Arrives on Wednesday, because we need access across the car park
first. But we planned for that, and have drafted in extra
shelf-stocking staff, and it'll all be ready on time.

And the tills?

Yes, all installed and tested.

Anything else I should know?

Weeeell, it'll be cash-only the first six weeks.

"What!!"

Yes, the tills don't have connectivity for the credit card
transactions

But I thought you said the tills had been tested.

Yes, and that was when we discovered the existing broadband
wasn't adequate. But we've ordered it from BT. And their lead
time is six weeks. Partly because they'll need to dig a trench,
erm, across the new car park...
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2019-07-13 18:33:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by michael adams
Post by Roland Perry
Post by michael adams
Post by Recliner
Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.
Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge
the last three and a bit years?
Being in charge ?
Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe
would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than
does the elected Mayor of London.
You are confusing strategic and operational.
Post by michael adams
Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking
overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect
therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole.
The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he
simply disappears in a puff of logic.
But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational.
The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could
judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within
budget.
If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within
budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed
to consider when tendering for the project.
Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ?
How long has Khan been mayor?

When did Crossrail start?

When were the contractors appointed?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Recliner
2019-07-14 11:42:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 19:33:42 +0100, Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by michael adams
Post by Roland Perry
Post by michael adams
Post by Recliner
Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.
Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge
the last three and a bit years?
Being in charge ?
Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe
would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than
does the elected Mayor of London.
You are confusing strategic and operational.
Post by michael adams
Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking
overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect
therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole.
The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he
simply disappears in a puff of logic.
But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational.
The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could
judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within
budget.
If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within
budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed
to consider when tendering for the project.
Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ?
How long has Khan been mayor?
When did Crossrail start?
When were the contractors appointed?
Exactly, he had nothing to do with appointing the contractors, and nor
did his predecessor. Would anyone *want* politicians choosing
contractors?
Recliner
2019-07-14 14:04:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
How long has Khan been mayor?
When did Crossrail start?
When were the contractors appointed?
Exactly, he had nothing to do with appointing the contractors, and nor
did his predecessor. Would anyone *want* politicians choosing
contractors?
No-one suggested politicians should choose Crossrail[1] contractors.
Didn't you just blame Khan for exactly that decision [in the section you
over-snipped]?
[But look on the bright side, having grasped the wrong end of the stick,
you are at least consistently and persistently waving it around, despite
all attempts to persuade you otherwise]
[1] Although when contractors are called "National Rail franchisees",
there's more than a suggestion that politicians called the SoS
have a say. Maybe he should leave it entirely to his civil servants?
Was it Adonis, who had previously meddled in the botched Academies
project, who started this trend with NXEC?
He had nothing to do with choosing TOCs. Civil servants choose them.
Oh no, it was Prescott
who fast-tracked the Stagecoach involvement in Virgin West Coast,
when they'd so publicly and embarrassingly messed up the 1998 Labour
Conference in Blackpool.
Rubbish, as discussed here ad nauseum. Prescott had absolutely nothing to
do with the deal between Souter and Branson. I don't understand why you
persist in this easily-disproved fantasy version of history you dreamed up?


And, BTW, Branson has just done it again, selling 49% of his sub-orbital
joy-ride company to another billionaire. It's his standard business model
with companies he starts (as opposed to ones he just licenses the brand
to).
Because it involves Prezza.
<https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/profile-john-
prescott-class-warrior-at-bay-1103851.html>
No mention of Stagecoach in that article.
Marland
2019-07-15 09:30:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
When did Crossrail start?
When were the contractors appointed?
Exactly, he had nothing to do with appointing the contractors, and nor
did his predecessor. Would anyone *want* politicians choosing
contractors?
Amongst the present generation of Career politicians are there any who do
have the the right experience.

Earnest Marples used the laxer requirements of the era to take advantage of
his position to the benefit of the company he had created but at least did
actually deliver.

Since then with rules on expenses, conflicts of interest,shareholdings in
firms that may benefit from a government decision coming under scrutiny
being much more stringent such a suitably qualified person may
decide the risk of falling foul of any and end up in front of a committee
to answer questions or even face criminal charges just isn’t worth the
bother, remuneration in a political position may appear high by the
standards of many but compared to what high earners in business can
accumulate it isn’t that spectacular.

Ultimately though what would serve the public interest better. A roguish
Politicians from the business world who steers the public’s moneys into
interests he his known and associated with but delivers or the career
politicians many of whom seem to have progressed from top end public
school ,University,lightish jobs such as journalism until they get chosen
as an MP on personality rather than experience and then work their way up
into higher positions.

If a project costs the taxpayer £50 billion and the minister happens to
have have a few shares in the construction interests that built it does
that matter in the bigger picture if the project is achieved on time and in
budget compared to one where the the same £50 billion has been spent but
due to lack of suitable knowledge amongst the career politicians who have
to depend on what they are told by others the project doesn’t run smooth
and needs more taxpayers money to complete.

Perhaps the cost of a few duck houses or similar silly abuses of the system
would be worth paying if persons of the right calibre are attracted to
become decision makers in politics.


GH
Recliner
2019-07-15 09:46:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
When did Crossrail start?
When were the contractors appointed?
Exactly, he had nothing to do with appointing the contractors, and nor
did his predecessor. Would anyone *want* politicians choosing
contractors?
Amongst the present generation of Career politicians are there any who do
have the the right experience.
Earnest Marples used the laxer requirements of the era to take advantage of
his position to the benefit of the company he had created but at least did
actually deliver.
Since then with rules on expenses, conflicts of interest,shareholdings in
firms that may benefit from a government decision coming under scrutiny
being much more stringent such a suitably qualified person may
decide the risk of falling foul of any and end up in front of a committee
to answer questions or even face criminal charges just isn’t worth the
bother, remuneration in a political position may appear high by the
standards of many but compared to what high earners in business can
accumulate it isn’t that spectacular.
Ultimately though what would serve the public interest better. A roguish
Politicians from the business world who steers the public’s moneys into
interests he his known and associated with but delivers or the career
politicians many of whom seem to have progressed from top end public
school ,University,lightish jobs such as journalism until they get chosen
as an MP on personality rather than experience and then work their way up
into higher positions.
If a project costs the taxpayer £50 billion and the minister happens to
have have a few shares in the construction interests that built it does
that matter in the bigger picture if the project is achieved on time and in
budget compared to one where the the same £50 billion has been spent but
due to lack of suitable knowledge amongst the career politicians who have
to depend on what they are told by others the project doesn’t run smooth
and needs more taxpayers money to complete.
Perhaps the cost of a few duck houses or similar silly abuses of the system
would be worth paying if persons of the right calibre are attracted to
become decision makers in politics.
Interestingly, if Boris wins, he'll be taking a pay cut of around £750,000
pa compared to what he was earning as a backbencher. Of course, in his
current position, the flat with a friendly neighbour might come in handy…
Basil Jet
2019-07-15 14:04:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Marland
Earnest Marples
I like it. Did your spell-checker do it?
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Black Affair - 2008 - It's Real
Marland
2019-07-15 14:56:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Marland
Earnest Marples
I like it. Did your spell-checker do it?
Probably, I changed to News Tap about 18 months ago after using agent for
years when the laptop died
and I replaced it with an I pad.
Must look into the settings and see if the spell checker can be turned off
as it drives me potty.


GH
Recliner
2019-07-15 15:11:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Marland
Earnest Marples
I like it. Did your spell-checker do it?
Probably, I changed to News Tap about 18 months ago after using agent for
years when the laptop died
and I replaced it with an I pad.
Must look into the settings and see if the spell checker can be turned off
as it drives me potty.
The spill chucker is part of the keyboard, not the app you're using it in.
Depending on which keyboard you're using, you may be able to turn off or
tune the auto correct feature. The keyboard I'm currently using (Padkeys)
has five levels of checking/correction available.
Graeme Wall
2019-07-20 11:32:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
How long has Khan been mayor?
When did Crossrail start?
When were the contractors appointed?
Exactly, he had nothing to do with appointing the contractors, and nor
did his predecessor. Would anyone *want* politicians choosing
contractors?
No-one suggested politicians should choose Crossrail[1] contractors.
Yes they did, hence my questions
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2019-07-21 12:49:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
No-one suggested politicians should choose Crossrail[1] contractors.
Yes they did, hence my questions
Who, and when.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2019-07-19 08:35:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by michael adams
Post by Roland Perry
Post by michael adams
Post by Recliner
Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.
Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge
the last three and a bit years?
Being in charge ?
Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe
would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than
does the elected Mayor of London.
You are confusing strategic and operational.
Post by michael adams
Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking
overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect
therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole.
The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he
simply disappears in a puff of logic.
But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational.
The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could
judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within
budget.
If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within
budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed
to consider when tendering for the project.
Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ?
How long has Khan been mayor?
When did Crossrail start?
When were the contractors appointed?
It's pretty clear from this latest report that the DfT is still very much
involved with the governance of the Crossrail project:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49037205
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2019-07-19 11:06:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by michael adams
Post by Roland Perry
Post by michael adams
Post by Recliner
Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.
Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge
the last three and a bit years?
Being in charge ?
Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe
would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than
does the elected Mayor of London.
You are confusing strategic and operational.
Post by michael adams
Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking
overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect
therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole.
The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he
simply disappears in a puff of logic.
But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational.
The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could
judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within
budget.
If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within
budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed
to consider when tendering for the project.
Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ?
How long has Khan been mayor?
When did Crossrail start?
When were the contractors appointed?
It's pretty clear from this latest report that the DfT is still very much
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49037205
According to that article it’s 60 miles from Reading to Heathrow?!?


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Roland Perry
2019-07-19 13:39:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
It's pretty clear from this latest report that the DfT is still very much
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49037205
No it isn't. It just means they are covering their arse with a reflex
action when people suggest they should be pulling their rather small
levers inside TfL more strongly.
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2019-07-20 09:01:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by michael adams
Post by Roland Perry
Post by michael adams
Post by Recliner
Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.
Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge
the last three and a bit years?
Being in charge ?
Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe
would command a far higher salary and have far fewer extraneous responsibilities, than
does the elected Mayor of London.
You are confusing strategic and operational.
Post by michael adams
Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking
overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect
therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole.
The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically. Otherwise he
simply disappears in a puff of logic.
But the reasons the project has been delayed are purely operational.
The strategy was to hire contractors capable - as far as anyone could
judge of fulfilling their particular contracts on time and within
budget.
If the contractors failed to fulfil their contract on time and within
budget this will have for purely operational reasons which they failed
to consider when tendering for the project.
Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ?
How long has Khan been mayor?
When did Crossrail start?
When were the contractors appointed?
It's pretty clear from this latest report that the DfT is still very much
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49037205
So the answers are

2016

2009

Before 2009

Tell me how Khan could have appointed different contractors?

Boris was mayor when it started but Livingstone was mayor in the actual
run up, when, presumably, the contractors were appointed.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2019-07-20 13:01:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by michael adams
Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ?
How long has Khan been mayor?
When did Crossrail start?
When were the contractors appointed?
It's pretty clear from this latest report that the DfT is still very much
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49037205
So the answers are
2016
2009
Before 2009
Tell me how Khan could have appointed different contractors?
I thought this red herring had died.

When did I suggest Khan should be appointing contractors?
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2019-07-20 13:43:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by michael adams
Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ?
How long has Khan been mayor?
When did Crossrail start?
When were the contractors appointed?
 It's pretty clear from this latest report that the DfT is still very
much
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49037205
So the answers are
2016
2009
Before 2009
Tell me how Khan could have appointed different contractors?
I thought this red herring had died.
When did I suggest Khan should be appointing contractors?
Lost yourself again? Look at the first line you've quoted, though as
you've snipped the attributions you will, no doubt, be even more confused.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2019-07-20 14:02:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by michael adams
Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ?
How long has Khan been mayor?
When did Crossrail start?
When were the contractors appointed?
 It's pretty clear from this latest report that the DfT is still
very much
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49037205
So the answers are
2016
2009
Before 2009
Tell me how Khan could have appointed different contractors?
I thought this red herring had died.
When did I suggest Khan should be appointing contractors?
Lost yourself again? Look at the first line you've quoted, though as
you've snipped the attributions you will, no doubt, be even more confused.
It was asked by michael adams[1], and my reply (which has been snipped
by along the way) was to deny I'd claimed he [or former mayors] should
be involved in choosing any contractors.

Why have you resurrected this zombie?
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2019-07-20 14:06:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by michael adams
Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different
contractors ?
How long has Khan been mayor?
When did Crossrail start?
When were the contractors appointed?
 It's pretty clear from this latest report that the DfT is still
very  much
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49037205
So the answers are
2016
2009
Before 2009
Tell me how Khan could have appointed different contractors?
 I thought this red herring had died.
 When did I suggest Khan should be appointing contractors?
Lost yourself again? Look at the first line you've quoted, though as
you've snipped the attributions you will, no doubt, be even more confused.
It was asked by michael adams[1], and my reply (which has been snipped
by along the way) was to deny I'd claimed he [or former mayors] should
be involved in choosing any contractors.
Why have you resurrected this zombie?
Look at the dates, I haven't, you have by coming in late.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2019-07-21 12:47:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by michael adams
Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different
contractors ?
How long has Khan been mayor?
When did Crossrail start?
When were the contractors appointed?
 It's pretty clear from this latest report that the DfT is still
very  much
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49037205
So the answers are
2016
2009
Before 2009
Tell me how Khan could have appointed different contractors?
 I thought this red herring had died.
 When did I suggest Khan should be appointing contractors?
Lost yourself again? Look at the first line you've quoted, though as
you've snipped the attributions you will, no doubt, be even more confused.
It was asked by michael adams[1], and my reply (which has been
snipped by along the way) was to deny I'd claimed he [or former
mayors] should be involved in choosing any contractors.
Why have you resurrected this zombie?
Look at the dates, I haven't, you have by coming in late.
Which dates? I see you commenting on a thread the relevant bits of which
are over a week ago.
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2019-07-21 17:54:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by michael adams
Or are you suggesting Khan should have chosen different contractors ?
How long has Khan been mayor?
When did Crossrail start?
When were the contractors appointed?
 It's pretty clear from this latest report that the DfT is still
very  much
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49037205
So the answers are
2016
2009
Before 2009
Tell me how Khan could have appointed different contractors?
 >>
Post by Graeme Wall
 I thought this red herring had died.
 When did I suggest Khan should be appointing contractors?
Lost yourself again? Look at the first line you've quoted, though as
you've snipped the attributions you will, no doubt, be even more confused.
 It was asked by michael adams[1], and my reply (which has been
snipped  by along the way) was to deny I'd claimed he [or former
mayors] should  be involved in choosing any contractors.
 Why have you resurrected this zombie?
Look at the dates, I haven't, you have by coming in late.
Which dates? I see you commenting on a thread the relevant bits of which
are over a week ago.
Pleas yourself, you have again magnificently missed the point just so
you can start an arguement with yourself.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2019-07-22 16:11:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Tell me how Khan could have appointed different contractors?
******* Boris was mayor when it started but Livingstone was mayor in
******* the actual run up, when, presumably, the contractors were
******* appointed.
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
 I thought this red herring had died.
 When did I suggest Khan should be appointing contractors?
Lost yourself again? Look at the first line you've quoted, though
as you've snipped the attributions you will, no doubt, be even
more confused.
 It was asked by michael adams[1], and my reply (which has been
snipped  by along the way) was to deny I'd claimed he [or former
mayors] should  be involved in choosing any contractors.
 Why have you resurrected this zombie?
Look at the dates, I haven't, you have by coming in late.
Which dates? I see you commenting on a thread the relevant bits of
which are over a week ago.
Pleas yourself, you have again magnificently missed the point just so
you can start an arguement with yourself.
As ever, you'll have to explain what exactly the point is, as far as you
perceive it.

To possibly shorten the agony, no-one has suggested Khan, or any
previous Mayor[1], should be appointing contractors.

[1] I've restored the bit which got lost, for clarity.
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2019-07-22 18:51:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Tell me how Khan could have appointed different contractors?
******* Boris was mayor when it started but Livingstone  was mayor in
******* the actual run up, when, presumably, the contractors were
******* appointed.
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
 I thought this red herring had died.
 When did I suggest Khan should be appointing contractors?
Lost yourself again? Look at the first line you've quoted, though
as  you've snipped the attributions you will, no doubt, be even
more  confused.
 It was asked by michael adams[1], and my reply (which has been
snipped  by along the way) was to deny I'd claimed he [or former
mayors] should  be involved in choosing any contractors.
 Why have you resurrected this zombie?
Look at the dates, I haven't, you have by coming in late.
 Which dates? I see you commenting on a thread the relevant bits of
which  are over a week ago.
Pleas yourself, you have again magnificently missed the point just so
you can start an arguement with yourself.
As ever, you'll have to explain what exactly the point is, as far as you
perceive it.
To possibly shorten the agony, no-one has suggested Khan, or any
previous Mayor[1], should be appointing contractors.
[1] I've restored the bit which got lost, for clarity.
No you haven't. You have carefully snipped the original statement and my
follow-up questions. Also Recliner's link to an article that lead to the
appropriate answers.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2019-07-23 11:01:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Tell me how Khan could have appointed different contractors?
******* Boris was mayor when it started but Livingstone  was mayor in
******* the actual run up, when, presumably, the contractors were
******* appointed.
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
 I thought this red herring had died.
 When did I suggest Khan should be appointing contractors?
Lost yourself again? Look at the first line you've quoted,
though as  you've snipped the attributions you will, no doubt,
be even more  confused.
 It was asked by michael adams[1], and my reply (which has been
snipped  by along the way) was to deny I'd claimed he [or former
mayors] should  be involved in choosing any contractors.
 Why have you resurrected this zombie?
Look at the dates, I haven't, you have by coming in late.
 Which dates? I see you commenting on a thread the relevant bits of
which  are over a week ago.
Pleas yourself, you have again magnificently missed the point just
so you can start an arguement with yourself.
As ever, you'll have to explain what exactly the point is, as far as
you perceive it.
To possibly shorten the agony, no-one has suggested Khan, or any
previous Mayor[1], should be appointing contractors.
[1] I've restored the bit which got lost, for clarity.
No you haven't. You have carefully snipped the original statement
Date and author please, so we can find it easily.
Post by Graeme Wall
and my follow-up questions. Also Recliner's link to an article that
lead to the appropriate answers.
We can do that later.
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2019-07-23 11:35:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Tell me how Khan could have appointed different contractors?
 ******* Boris was mayor when it started but Livingstone  was mayor in
******* the actual run up, when, presumably, the contractors were
******* appointed.
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
 I thought this red herring had died.
 When did I suggest Khan should be appointing contractors?
Lost yourself again? Look at the first line you've quoted,
though  as  you've snipped the attributions you will, no doubt,
be even  more  confused.
 It was asked by michael adams[1], and my reply (which has been
snipped  by along the way) was to deny I'd claimed he [or former
mayors] should  be involved in choosing any contractors.
 Why have you resurrected this zombie?
Look at the dates, I haven't, you have by coming in late.
 Which dates? I see you commenting on a thread the relevant bits of
which  are over a week ago.
Pleas yourself, you have again magnificently missed the point just
so  you can start an arguement with yourself.
 As ever, you'll have to explain what exactly the point is, as far as
you  perceive it.
 To possibly shorten the agony, no-one has suggested Khan, or any
previous Mayor[1], should be appointing contractors.
 [1] I've restored the bit which got lost, for clarity.
No you haven't. You have carefully snipped the original statement
Date and author please, so we can find it easily.
Already pointed you at it once, not going to repeat myself.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
and my follow-up questions. Also Recliner's link to an article that
lead to the appropriate answers.
We can do that later.
We've done it while you were working up your current argument.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Basil Jet
2019-07-23 14:38:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Tell me how Khan could have appointed different contractors?
 ******* Boris was mayor when it started but Livingstone  was mayor in
******* the actual run up, when, presumably, the contractors were
******* appointed.
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
 I thought this red herring had died.
 When did I suggest Khan should be appointing contractors?
Lost yourself again? Look at the first line you've quoted,
though  as  you've snipped the attributions you will, no doubt,
be even  more  confused.
 It was asked by michael adams[1], and my reply (which has been
snipped  by along the way) was to deny I'd claimed he [or former
mayors] should  be involved in choosing any contractors.
 Why have you resurrected this zombie?
Look at the dates, I haven't, you have by coming in late.
 Which dates? I see you commenting on a thread the relevant bits of
which  are over a week ago.
Pleas yourself, you have again magnificently missed the point just
so  you can start an arguement with yourself.
 As ever, you'll have to explain what exactly the point is, as far as
you  perceive it.
 To possibly shorten the agony, no-one has suggested Khan, or any
previous Mayor[1], should be appointing contractors.
 [1] I've restored the bit which got lost, for clarity.
No you haven't. You have carefully snipped the original statement
Date and author please, so we can find it easily.
Post by Graeme Wall
and my follow-up questions. Also Recliner's link to an article that
lead to the appropriate answers.
We can do that later.
I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Mazzy Star - 2013 - Seasons Of Your Day
Roland Perry
2019-07-23 15:06:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?
Graeme has the means to truncate it to five minutes.
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2019-07-23 15:32:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Basil Jet
I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?
Graeme has the means to truncate it to five minutes.
Even quicker, I'm not taking part.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2019-07-23 19:14:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Basil Jet
I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?
Graeme has the means to truncate it to five minutes.
Even quicker, I'm not taking part.
That's fair enough, but confirms my view that the posting which started
this subthread was a complete wobbler. Glad we got that sorted.
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2019-07-24 11:01:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Basil Jet
I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?
 Graeme has the means to truncate it to five minutes.
Even quicker, I'm not taking part.
That's fair enough, but confirms my view that the posting which started
this subthread was a complete wobbler. Glad we got that sorted.
Only inside the echo chamber of your mind.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2019-07-24 13:03:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Basil Jet
I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?
 Graeme has the means to truncate it to five minutes.
Even quicker, I'm not taking part.
That's fair enough, but confirms my view that the posting which
started this subthread was a complete wobbler. Glad we got that sorted.
Only inside the echo chamber of your mind.
On balance, as you refuse to justify your position, it fails.
--
Roland Perry
Graeme Wall
2019-07-24 16:02:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Basil Jet
I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?
 Graeme has the means to truncate it to five minutes.
Even quicker, I'm not taking part.
 That's fair enough, but confirms my view that the posting which
started  this subthread was a complete wobbler. Glad we got that sorted.
Only inside the echo chamber of your mind.
On balance, as you refuse to justify your position, it fails.
You really are pathetic, desperately trying to have the last word so you
can justify in your own mind "winning" an argument that only ever
existed i your head. For heaven's sake grow up and stop acting like a
spoilt child.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Recliner
2019-07-24 16:12:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Basil Jet
I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?
 Graeme has the means to truncate it to five minutes.
Even quicker, I'm not taking part.
 That's fair enough, but confirms my view that the posting which
started  this subthread was a complete wobbler. Glad we got that sorted.
Only inside the echo chamber of your mind.
On balance, as you refuse to justify your position, it fails.
You really are pathetic, desperately trying to have the last word so you
can justify in your own mind "winning" an argument that only ever
existed i your head. For heaven's sake grow up and stop acting like a
spoilt child.
It's hard to believe that Roland was once a high flying international
business executive. Although I suppose it's this sort of childish behaviour
that brought that career to an end.
Roland Perry
2019-07-24 16:33:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
It's hard to believe that Roland was once a high flying international
business executive. Although I suppose it's this sort of childish behaviour
that brought that career to an end.
Wrong on both counts. I'd never call myself (any sort of) business
executive. And if asking (in a roundabout way) "cite" is childish
[rather than standard Usenet protocol], then at least I did it without
resorting to personal insults.
--
Roland Perry
Basil Jet
2019-07-24 17:53:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Basil Jet
I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?
 Graeme has the means to truncate it to five minutes.
Even quicker, I'm not taking part.
 That's fair enough, but confirms my view that the posting which
started  this subthread was a complete wobbler. Glad we got that sorted.
Only inside the echo chamber of your mind.
On balance, as you refuse to justify your position, it fails.
You really are pathetic, desperately trying to have the last word so you
can justify in your own mind "winning" an argument that only ever
existed i your head. For heaven's sake grow up and stop acting like a
spoilt child.
It's hard to believe that Roland was once a high flying international
business executive. Although I suppose it's this sort of childish behaviour
that brought that career to an end.
There's no need for that sort of personal stuff, especially when you
were not the target of his pointless argument (on this occasion).
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Paul Weller - 2002 - Illumination
Roland Perry
2019-07-24 18:46:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Basil Jet
I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?
 Graeme has the means to truncate it to five minutes.
Even quicker, I'm not taking part.
 That's fair enough, but confirms my view that the posting which
started  this subthread was a complete wobbler. Glad we got that sorted.
Only inside the echo chamber of your mind.
On balance, as you refuse to justify your position, it fails.
You really are pathetic, desperately trying to have the last word so you
can justify in your own mind "winning" an argument that only ever
existed i your head. For heaven's sake grow up and stop acting like a
spoilt child.
It's hard to believe that Roland was once a high flying
international
business executive. Although I suppose it's this sort of childish behaviour
that brought that career to an end.
There's no need for that sort of personal stuff, especially when you
were not the target of his pointless argument (on this occasion).
I know you are going to hate this, but I wasn't even the one stirring up
a pointless argument. That honour goes to those who fail to understand
the mayor's role. I did my best to put that record straight, but the
fallout has been admittedly very tedious.
--
Roland Perry
Basil Jet
2019-07-24 19:39:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Basil Jet
I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?
  Graeme has the means to truncate it to five minutes.
Even quicker, I'm not taking part.
  That's fair enough, but confirms my view that the posting which
started  this subthread was a complete wobbler. Glad we got that sorted.
Only inside the echo chamber of your mind.
On balance, as you refuse to justify your position, it fails.
You really are pathetic, desperately trying to have the last word so you
can justify in your own mind "winning" an argument that only ever
existed i your head. For heaven's sake grow up and stop acting like a
spoilt child.
 It's hard to believe that Roland was once a high flying international
business executive. Although I suppose it's this sort of childish behaviour
that brought that career to an end.
There's no need for that sort of personal stuff, especially when you
were not the target of his pointless argument (on this occasion).
I know you are going to hate this, but I wasn't even the one stirring up
a pointless argument. That honour goes to those who fail to understand
the mayor's role. I did my best to put that record straight, but the
fallout has been admittedly very tedious.
I don't hate it, I don't care. I don't read every message. I don't
recall who posted every message that I do read. I don't know who started
this argument and I don't care to check. But over time I do notice that
every pointless argument has got you in it.
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Paul Weller - 2002 - Illumination
Roland Perry
2019-07-25 07:32:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I don't recall who posted every message that I do read. I don't know
who started this argument and I don't care to check. But over time I do
notice that every pointless argument has got you in it.
I seem to attract people who quibble about the most minor of details.

The threads which people characterise as "pointless" are usually where
the quibbler has egg on their face and keeps digging.

It's a feature of Usenet, and we just have to live with it.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2019-07-24 16:30:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Basil Jet
I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half
 Graeme has the means to truncate it to five minutes.
Even quicker, I'm not taking part.
 That's fair enough, but confirms my view that the posting which
started  this subthread was a complete wobbler. Glad we got that sorted.
Only inside the echo chamber of your mind.
On balance, as you refuse to justify your position, it fails.
You really are pathetic, desperately trying to have the last word so
you can justify in your own mind "winning" an argument that only ever
existed i your head. For heaven's sake grow up and stop acting like a
spoilt child.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you had an actual point
to make earlier. I'm disappointed that you didn't back it up, but if you
had, then *that* would have resulted in me "losing the argument" (about
the Mayors not appointing contractors).
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2019-07-13 14:12:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by michael adams
Post by Recliner
Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.
Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge
the last three and a bit years?
Being in charge ?
Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure
project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer
extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London.
You are confusing strategic and operational.
Post by michael adams
Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking
overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect
therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole.
The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically.
Otherwise he simply disappears in a puff of logic.
Post by michael adams
If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves open
to ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as
yourself.
I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario, given your
total confusion over roles displayed above.
And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail, which is
looking vaguer and vaguer all the time.
I'm just looking for the opportunity to travel to Reading for free :-)

tim
Recliner
2019-07-13 14:38:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by michael adams
Post by Recliner
Mayor Sadiq Khan strengthened the scrutiny powers of Jacobs to reveal
problems with Crossrail and increase the project's transparency.
Is he trying to distance himself from the project's failings, despite being in charge
the last three and a bit years?
Being in charge ?
Anyone capable of taking overall charge of the largest infrastructure
project in Europe would command a far higher salary and have far fewer
extraneous responsibilities, than does the elected Mayor of London.
You are confusing strategic and operational.
Post by michael adams
Or put the other way, as with most levels in politics anyone capable of taking
overall charge of the largest infrastructure project in Europe - or any aspect
therein come to that wouldn't touch any such elected position with a bargepole.
The Mayor's entire role is to be in charge politically and strategically.
Otherwise he simply disappears in a puff of logic.
Post by michael adams
If only because as in this instance with Kahn, they'd only lay themselves open
to ill-informed and tendentious criticism from craven opportunists such as
yourself.
I bet I'm more qualified than you to comment on this scenario, given your
total confusion over roles displayed above.
And the only opportunity I'm looking for is a ride on Crossrail, which is
looking vaguer and vaguer all the time.
I'm just looking for the opportunity to travel to Reading for free :-)
You should get that later this year.
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