Discussion:
New timetables online: Park Royal parly to be diverted
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Basil Jet
2018-11-25 00:26:46 UTC
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That means the daily Chiltern
service to Paddington will also finish soon.
Apparently it will be diverted to West Ealing at the December timetable
change, but I can't find it at all in the new timetables.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/timetabling/electronic-national-rail-timetable/
--
Basil Jet - listening... Soft Cell. Soft Machine. Solomon Grey. Sonic
Youth. Sonique. Sonny Rollins. Sophie Ellis Bextor. Soul-Junk. Space.
Space (French). Spacehog. Spacemen 3. Spear Of Destiny. Spectres (UK).
Spiller feat Sophie Ellis Bextor. Spiritual Vibes. Spiritualized.
Splat!. Split Enz. Spoon. Spring King. Squeeze. Sroeng Santi.
Recliner
2018-11-25 00:55:15 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
That means the daily Chiltern
service to Paddington will also finish soon.
Apparently it will be diverted to West Ealing at the December timetable
change, but I can't find it at all in the new timetables.
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/timetabling/electronic-national-rail-timetable/
I suppose that makes sense in terms of maintaining Chiltern drivers' route
knowledge for diversions.

However, I hope that Chiltern's request for a reopened line into the new
OOC Crossrail/HS2/GWR station comes to fruition, so it can run an hourly
service to it from Milton Keynes via Aylesbury.
Basil Jet
2018-11-25 01:40:37 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
That means the daily Chiltern
service to Paddington will also finish soon.
Apparently it will be diverted to West Ealing at the December timetable
change, but I can't find it at all in the new timetables.
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/timetabling/electronic-national-rail-timetable/
I suppose that makes sense in terms of maintaining Chiltern drivers' route
knowledge for diversions.
However, I hope that Chiltern's request for a reopened line into the new
OOC Crossrail/HS2/GWR station comes to fruition, so it can run an hourly
service to it from Milton Keynes via Aylesbury.
It seems like a stupid place to terminate - I can't see many people
getting trains in from High Wycombe to change onto HS2 for Birmingham.
Crossrail is just a glorified tube line - although I suppose the other
Chiltern trains terminate at a station with only one tube line.

I'd rather they put a curve through the industrial site car park to link
to the line that goes near Willesden Junction before heading south to
Clapham Junction and further.
--
Basil Jet - listening... Soft Cell. Soft Machine. Solomon Grey. Sonic
Youth. Sonique. Sonny Rollins. Sophie Ellis Bextor. Soul-Junk. Space.
Space (French). Spacehog. Spacemen 3. Spear Of Destiny. Spectres (UK).
Spiller feat Sophie Ellis Bextor. Spiritual Vibes. Spiritualized.
Splat!. Split Enz. Spoon. Spring King. Squeeze. Sroeng Santi.
Recliner
2018-11-25 09:55:44 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
That means the daily Chiltern
service to Paddington will also finish soon.
Apparently it will be diverted to West Ealing at the December timetable
change, but I can't find it at all in the new timetables.
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/timetabling/electronic-national-rail-timetable/
I suppose that makes sense in terms of maintaining Chiltern drivers' route
knowledge for diversions.
However, I hope that Chiltern's request for a reopened line into the new
OOC Crossrail/HS2/GWR station comes to fruition, so it can run an hourly
service to it from Milton Keynes via Aylesbury.
It seems like a stupid place to terminate - I can't see many people
getting trains in from High Wycombe to change onto HS2 for Birmingham.
Crossrail is just a glorified tube line - although I suppose the other
Chiltern trains terminate at a station with only one tube line.
It's Crossrail, including the Heathrow link, that's their main target. The
HS2 link would have less relevance. The connection to the GWR might be more
important for some.

Crossrail is much more than a glorified tube line.
Post by Basil Jet
I'd rather they put a curve through the industrial site car park to link
to the line that goes near Willesden Junction before heading south to
Clapham Junction and further.
The West London line will also have an OOC station, as will the Richmond
line. OOC will be a major interchange station that may also get a Central
Line station.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Oak_Common_railway_station
Roger Lynn
2018-11-25 20:21:58 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
However, I hope that Chiltern's request for a reopened line into the new
OOC Crossrail/HS2/GWR station comes to fruition, so it can run an hourly
service to it from Milton Keynes via Aylesbury.
It seems like a stupid place to terminate - I can't see many people
getting trains in from High Wycombe to change onto HS2 for Birmingham.
Crossrail is just a glorified tube line - although I suppose the other
Chiltern trains terminate at a station with only one tube line.
Connections to Heathrow and the GWML would be useful. At the moment getting
to Heathrow from Chiltern stations is a pain and it's easier and faster to
drive or get a coach.

Roger
Basil Jet
2018-11-25 22:25:10 UTC
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Post by Roger Lynn
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
However, I hope that Chiltern's request for a reopened line into the new
OOC Crossrail/HS2/GWR station comes to fruition, so it can run an hourly
service to it from Milton Keynes via Aylesbury.
It seems like a stupid place to terminate - I can't see many people
getting trains in from High Wycombe to change onto HS2 for Birmingham.
Crossrail is just a glorified tube line - although I suppose the other
Chiltern trains terminate at a station with only one tube line.
Connections to Heathrow and the GWML would be useful. At the moment
getting to Heathrow from Chiltern stations is a pain and it's easier and
faster to drive or get a coach.
I wasn't suggesting it shouldn't go to OOC - just that it should go on
to Clapham Junction afterwards, giving Chiltern stations a one change
journey to Gatwick and half the country.
--
Basil Jet - listening... Soft Cell. Soft Machine. Solomon Grey. Sonic
Youth. Sonique. Sonny Rollins. Sophie Ellis Bextor. Soul-Junk. Space.
Space (French). Spacehog. Spacemen 3. Spear Of Destiny. Spectres (UK).
Spiller feat Sophie Ellis Bextor. Spiritual Vibes. Spiritualized.
Splat!. Split Enz. Spoon. Spring King. Squeeze. Sroeng Santi.
Recliner
2018-11-25 22:54:58 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roger Lynn
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
However, I hope that Chiltern's request for a reopened line into the new
OOC Crossrail/HS2/GWR station comes to fruition, so it can run an hourly
service to it from Milton Keynes via Aylesbury.
It seems like a stupid place to terminate - I can't see many people
getting trains in from High Wycombe to change onto HS2 for Birmingham.
Crossrail is just a glorified tube line - although I suppose the other
Chiltern trains terminate at a station with only one tube line.
Connections to Heathrow and the GWML would be useful. At the moment
getting to Heathrow from Chiltern stations is a pain and it's easier and
faster to drive or get a coach.
I wasn't suggesting it shouldn't go to OOC - just that it should go on
to Clapham Junction afterwards, giving Chiltern stations a one change
journey to Gatwick and half the country.
I don't think there would be any route beyond OOC to the West London line.
The Crossrail depot is in the way.
Charles Ellson
2018-11-25 23:03:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 22:54:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roger Lynn
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
However, I hope that Chiltern's request for a reopened line into the new
OOC Crossrail/HS2/GWR station comes to fruition, so it can run an hourly
service to it from Milton Keynes via Aylesbury.
It seems like a stupid place to terminate - I can't see many people
getting trains in from High Wycombe to change onto HS2 for Birmingham.
Crossrail is just a glorified tube line - although I suppose the other
Chiltern trains terminate at a station with only one tube line.
Connections to Heathrow and the GWML would be useful. At the moment
getting to Heathrow from Chiltern stations is a pain and it's easier and
faster to drive or get a coach.
I wasn't suggesting it shouldn't go to OOC - just that it should go on
to Clapham Junction afterwards, giving Chiltern stations a one change
journey to Gatwick and half the country.
I don't think there would be any route beyond OOC to the West London line.
The Crossrail depot is in the way.
Round the north side meeting the WLL on the south side of Willesden
Junction IIRC.
Recliner
2018-11-25 23:11:24 UTC
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Post by Charles Ellson
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 22:54:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roger Lynn
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
However, I hope that Chiltern's request for a reopened line into the new
OOC Crossrail/HS2/GWR station comes to fruition, so it can run an hourly
service to it from Milton Keynes via Aylesbury.
It seems like a stupid place to terminate - I can't see many people
getting trains in from High Wycombe to change onto HS2 for Birmingham.
Crossrail is just a glorified tube line - although I suppose the other
Chiltern trains terminate at a station with only one tube line.
Connections to Heathrow and the GWML would be useful. At the moment
getting to Heathrow from Chiltern stations is a pain and it's easier and
faster to drive or get a coach.
I wasn't suggesting it shouldn't go to OOC - just that it should go on
to Clapham Junction afterwards, giving Chiltern stations a one change
journey to Gatwick and half the country.
I don't think there would be any route beyond OOC to the West London line.
The Crossrail depot is in the way.
Round the north side meeting the WLL on the south side of Willesden
Junction IIRC.
That would miss the OOC station altogether. It would have to cross the
canal and join the WLL on the north side. It would be a much more expensive
project, and there's probably no platform space for the trains to reverse
at CLJ anyway.

Given the choice, terminating at OOC make much more sense.
Basil Jet
2018-11-26 01:28:03 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 22:54:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roger Lynn
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
However, I hope that Chiltern's request for a reopened line into the new
OOC Crossrail/HS2/GWR station comes to fruition, so it can run an hourly
service to it from Milton Keynes via Aylesbury.
It seems like a stupid place to terminate - I can't see many people
getting trains in from High Wycombe to change onto HS2 for Birmingham.
Crossrail is just a glorified tube line - although I suppose the other
Chiltern trains terminate at a station with only one tube line.
Connections to Heathrow and the GWML would be useful. At the moment
getting to Heathrow from Chiltern stations is a pain and it's easier and
faster to drive or get a coach.
I wasn't suggesting it shouldn't go to OOC - just that it should go on
to Clapham Junction afterwards, giving Chiltern stations a one change
journey to Gatwick and half the country.
I don't think there would be any route beyond OOC to the West London line.
The Crossrail depot is in the way.
Round the north side meeting the WLL on the south side of Willesden
Junction IIRC.
That would miss the OOC station altogether. It would have to cross the
canal and join the WLL on the north side.
No, it would require a short curve in the vicinity of Acton Wells
Junction. (Admittedly levels might be an issue.) The curve from Acton
Wells Junction to the southbound WLL is already there, crossing the
canal twice, and not currently used by any passenger trains.
--
Basil Jet - listening... Soft Cell. Soft Machine. Solomon Grey. Sonic
Youth. Sonique. Sonny Rollins. Sophie Ellis Bextor. Soul-Junk. Space.
Space (French). Spacehog. Spacemen 3. Spear Of Destiny. Spectres (UK).
Spiller feat Sophie Ellis Bextor. Spiritual Vibes. Spiritualized.
Splat!. Split Enz. Spoon. Spring King. Squeeze. Sroeng Santi.
Recliner
2018-11-26 02:09:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 22:54:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roger Lynn
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
However, I hope that Chiltern's request for a reopened line into the new
OOC Crossrail/HS2/GWR station comes to fruition, so it can run an hourly
service to it from Milton Keynes via Aylesbury.
It seems like a stupid place to terminate - I can't see many people
getting trains in from High Wycombe to change onto HS2 for Birmingham.
Crossrail is just a glorified tube line - although I suppose the other
Chiltern trains terminate at a station with only one tube line.
Connections to Heathrow and the GWML would be useful. At the moment
getting to Heathrow from Chiltern stations is a pain and it's easier and
faster to drive or get a coach.
I wasn't suggesting it shouldn't go to OOC - just that it should go on
to Clapham Junction afterwards, giving Chiltern stations a one change
journey to Gatwick and half the country.
I don't think there would be any route beyond OOC to the West London line.
The Crossrail depot is in the way.
Round the north side meeting the WLL on the south side of Willesden
Junction IIRC.
That would miss the OOC station altogether. It would have to cross the
canal and join the WLL on the north side.
No, it would require a short curve in the vicinity of Acton Wells
Junction. (Admittedly levels might be an issue.) The curve from Acton
Wells Junction to the southbound WLL is already there, crossing the
canal twice, and not currently used by any passenger trains.
The Richmond line crosses the former GWR line to Birmingham at right
angles, so there's no easy connection. And if you cut through the Boden
building and Waitrose to get a connection, you'd miss the more important
OOC station.
Charles Ellson
2018-11-26 03:00:03 UTC
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Permalink
On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 02:09:29 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 22:54:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roger Lynn
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
However, I hope that Chiltern's request for a reopened line into the new
OOC Crossrail/HS2/GWR station comes to fruition, so it can run an hourly
service to it from Milton Keynes via Aylesbury.
It seems like a stupid place to terminate - I can't see many people
getting trains in from High Wycombe to change onto HS2 for Birmingham.
Crossrail is just a glorified tube line - although I suppose the other
Chiltern trains terminate at a station with only one tube line.
Connections to Heathrow and the GWML would be useful. At the moment
getting to Heathrow from Chiltern stations is a pain and it's easier and
faster to drive or get a coach.
I wasn't suggesting it shouldn't go to OOC - just that it should go on
to Clapham Junction afterwards, giving Chiltern stations a one change
journey to Gatwick and half the country.
I don't think there would be any route beyond OOC to the West London line.
The Crossrail depot is in the way.
Round the north side meeting the WLL on the south side of Willesden
Junction IIRC.
That would miss the OOC station altogether. It would have to cross the
canal and join the WLL on the north side.
No, it would require a short curve in the vicinity of Acton Wells
Junction. (Admittedly levels might be an issue.) The curve from Acton
Wells Junction to the southbound WLL is already there, crossing the
canal twice, and not currently used by any passenger trains.
The Richmond line crosses the former GWR line to Birmingham at right
angles, so there's no easy connection. And if you cut through the Boden
building and Waitrose to get a connection, you'd miss the more important
OOC station.
High Wycombe - South Ruislip - Northolt - Drayton Green - Ealing
Broadway - Acton Main Line - round the NW side of OOC (or whatever is
there after rearrangement connected with HS2) - Willesden Relief/SW
Lines - West London Line ?

IIRC at least a couple of the cunning plan maps for post-HS2 Old Oak
Common involve platforms/routes a bloody long walk[TM] further
north-ish of the main station to deal with WCML(NW)-WLL(S),
NLL(S)-WLL(S) and NLL(S)-NLL(N) trains. Part of the above route (SW
lines) would pass through what was the platformed area of Willesden
Junction until the 1960s.
Recliner
2018-11-26 03:29:46 UTC
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Post by Charles Ellson
On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 02:09:29 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 22:54:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roger Lynn
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
However, I hope that Chiltern's request for a reopened line into the new
OOC Crossrail/HS2/GWR station comes to fruition, so it can run an hourly
service to it from Milton Keynes via Aylesbury.
It seems like a stupid place to terminate - I can't see many people
getting trains in from High Wycombe to change onto HS2 for Birmingham.
Crossrail is just a glorified tube line - although I suppose the other
Chiltern trains terminate at a station with only one tube line.
Connections to Heathrow and the GWML would be useful. At the moment
getting to Heathrow from Chiltern stations is a pain and it's easier and
faster to drive or get a coach.
I wasn't suggesting it shouldn't go to OOC - just that it should go on
to Clapham Junction afterwards, giving Chiltern stations a one change
journey to Gatwick and half the country.
I don't think there would be any route beyond OOC to the West London line.
The Crossrail depot is in the way.
Round the north side meeting the WLL on the south side of Willesden
Junction IIRC.
That would miss the OOC station altogether. It would have to cross the
canal and join the WLL on the north side.
No, it would require a short curve in the vicinity of Acton Wells
Junction. (Admittedly levels might be an issue.) The curve from Acton
Wells Junction to the southbound WLL is already there, crossing the
canal twice, and not currently used by any passenger trains.
The Richmond line crosses the former GWR line to Birmingham at right
angles, so there's no easy connection. And if you cut through the Boden
building and Waitrose to get a connection, you'd miss the more important
OOC station.
High Wycombe - South Ruislip - Northolt - Drayton Green - Ealing
Broadway - Acton Main Line - round the NW side of OOC (or whatever is
there after rearrangement connected with HS2) - Willesden Relief/SW
Lines - West London Line ?
Yes, that would work, apart from the lack of paths on the GWR relief lines
when Crossrail is in full operation. The journey would also be very slow.

The direct route on the old GWR Main line to Birmingham would be much
shorter, quicker and independent of other lines. It would provide a direct,
fast, reliable, dedicated route to dedicated Chiltern bay platforms at OOC,
just next to the HS2 and Crossrail platforms. That's why it's the route
Chiltern wants, not an incredibly slow, meandering, congested route to CLJ,
via an inconvenient station near OOC.

Those Chiltern passengers who do want to get to CLJ can do so via a change
at OOC.
Post by Charles Ellson
IIRC at least a couple of the cunning plan maps for post-HS2 Old Oak
Common involve platforms/routes a bloody long walk[TM] further
north-ish of the main station to deal with WCML(NW)-WLL(S),
NLL(S)-WLL(S) and NLL(S)-NLL(N) trains.
Which is partly why it's not what Chiltern wants.
Post by Charles Ellson
Part of the above route (SW
lines) would pass through what was the platformed area of Willesden
Junction until the 1960s.
There may be scope for a long moving walkway or airport-style shuttle
between Willesden Junction and OOC. That would make OOC an even more
important interchange station.
Basil Jet
2018-11-26 12:23:49 UTC
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Post by Recliner
There may be scope for a long moving walkway or airport-style shuttle
between Willesden Junction and OOC. That would make OOC an even more
important interchange station.
It's about 900 metres. At 9km/h that's 6 minutes on a walkway. You'd
have to fit it with toilets :-)
--
Basil Jet - listening... Soft Cell. Soft Machine. Solomon Grey. Sonic
Youth. Sonique. Sonny Rollins. Sophie Ellis Bextor. Soul-Junk. Space.
Space (French). Spacehog. Spacemen 3. Spear Of Destiny. Spectres (UK).
Spiller feat Sophie Ellis Bextor. Spiritual Vibes. Spiritualized.
Splat!. Split Enz. Spoon. Spring King. Squeeze. Sroeng Santi.
Basil Jet
2018-11-26 12:39:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 22:54:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roger Lynn
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
However, I hope that Chiltern's request for a reopened line into the new
OOC Crossrail/HS2/GWR station comes to fruition, so it can run an hourly
service to it from Milton Keynes via Aylesbury.
It seems like a stupid place to terminate - I can't see many people
getting trains in from High Wycombe to change onto HS2 for Birmingham.
Crossrail is just a glorified tube line - although I suppose the other
Chiltern trains terminate at a station with only one tube line.
Connections to Heathrow and the GWML would be useful. At the moment
getting to Heathrow from Chiltern stations is a pain and it's easier and
faster to drive or get a coach.
I wasn't suggesting it shouldn't go to OOC - just that it should go on
to Clapham Junction afterwards, giving Chiltern stations a one change
journey to Gatwick and half the country.
I don't think there would be any route beyond OOC to the West London line.
The Crossrail depot is in the way.
Round the north side meeting the WLL on the south side of Willesden
Junction IIRC.
That would miss the OOC station altogether. It would have to cross the
canal and join the WLL on the north side.
No, it would require a short curve in the vicinity of Acton Wells
Junction. (Admittedly levels might be an issue.) The curve from Acton
Wells Junction to the southbound WLL is already there, crossing the
canal twice, and not currently used by any passenger trains.
The Richmond line crosses the former GWR line to Birmingham at right
angles, so there's no easy connection. And if you cut through the Boden
building and Waitrose to get a connection, you'd miss the more important
OOC station.
You massively overestimate the land needed for the curve. You only need
the car park of the Boden building for a curve the same radius as the
one in Bicester.
--
Basil Jet - listening... St. Vincent. Star Park. Stealing Sheep. Stephen
Mallinder. Stereolab. Steve Harley & Cockney Rebel. Steve Mackay. Steve
Mason. Steve Reich. Steve Wynn. Stiff Little Fingers. Stonephace. Stump.
Sub Sub. Subway Sect. Suede. Sufjan Stevens. Sugar. Suicidal Tendencies.
Suicide. Sun City Girls & David Oliphant. Sun Ra. Sunday Painters.
Swans. Sweet Baboo. Swell Maps. Swing Out Sister. Swollen Monkeys. Syd
Barrett. Sylvan Esso.
Anna Noyd-Dryver
2018-11-26 15:25:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 22:54:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roger Lynn
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
However, I hope that Chiltern's request for a reopened line into the new
OOC Crossrail/HS2/GWR station comes to fruition, so it can run an hourly
service to it from Milton Keynes via Aylesbury.
It seems like a stupid place to terminate - I can't see many people
getting trains in from High Wycombe to change onto HS2 for Birmingham.
Crossrail is just a glorified tube line - although I suppose the other
Chiltern trains terminate at a station with only one tube line.
Connections to Heathrow and the GWML would be useful. At the moment
getting to Heathrow from Chiltern stations is a pain and it's easier and
faster to drive or get a coach.
I wasn't suggesting it shouldn't go to OOC - just that it should go on
to Clapham Junction afterwards, giving Chiltern stations a one change
journey to Gatwick and half the country.
I don't think there would be any route beyond OOC to the West London line.
The Crossrail depot is in the way.
Round the north side meeting the WLL on the south side of Willesden
Junction IIRC.
That would miss the OOC station altogether. It would have to cross the
canal and join the WLL on the north side.
No, it would require a short curve in the vicinity of Acton Wells
Junction. (Admittedly levels might be an issue.) The curve from Acton
Wells Junction to the southbound WLL is already there, crossing the
canal twice, and not currently used by any passenger trains.
The Richmond line crosses the former GWR line to Birmingham at right
angles, so there's no easy connection. And if you cut through the Boden
building and Waitrose to get a connection, you'd miss the more important
OOC station.
You massively overestimate the land needed for the curve. You only need
the car park of the Boden building for a curve the same radius as the
one in Bicester.
I rather think you *underestimate* the land required.

Comparing your proposed curve, the other curves in the Old Oak/Willesden
area, and the Bicester curve, I really don’t think it’ll fit where you want
it to.


Anna Noyd-Dryver
Basil Jet
2018-11-26 15:56:57 UTC
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Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
The Richmond line crosses the former GWR line to Birmingham at right
angles, so there's no easy connection. And if you cut through the Boden
building and Waitrose to get a connection, you'd miss the more important
OOC station.
You massively overestimate the land needed for the curve. You only need
the car park of the Boden building for a curve the same radius as the
one in Bicester.
I rather think you *underestimate* the land required.
Comparing your proposed curve, the other curves in the Old Oak/Willesden
area, and the Bicester curve, I really don’t think it’ll fit where you want
it to.
Have you measured it on the screen with a circular object? I have,
twice, at two different scales using two different circular objects.

Incidentally, GWR use the Paddington - Park Royal - Ealing - Paddington
for turning trains that have ended up the wrong way round. How will they
turn trains after the line is severed, or will the line be too busy to
even think about it?
--
Basil Jet - listening... St. Vincent. Star Park. Stealing Sheep. Stephen
Mallinder. Stereolab. Steve Harley & Cockney Rebel. Steve Mackay. Steve
Mason. Steve Reich. Steve Wynn. Stiff Little Fingers. Stonephace. Stump.
Sub Sub. Subway Sect. Suede. Sufjan Stevens. Sugar. Suicidal Tendencies.
Suicide. Sun City Girls & David Oliphant. Sun Ra. Sunday Painters.
Swans. Sweet Baboo. Swell Maps. Swing Out Sister. Swollen Monkeys. Syd
Barrett. Sylvan Esso.
Robin9
2018-11-27 11:09:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Incidentally, GWR use the Paddington
- Park Royal - Ealing - Paddington for turning trains that have
ended up the wrong way round. How will they turn trains
after the line is severed, or will the line be too busy to
even think about it?
Basil Jet .
Presumably, they'll simply change locomotives in Acton Yard


--
Robin9
Recliner
2018-11-27 12:11:06 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Incidentally, GWR use the Paddington
- Park Royal - Ealing - Paddington for turning trains that have
ended up the wrong way round. How will they turn trains
after the line is severed, or will the line be too busy to
even think about it?
Basil Jet .
Presumably, they'll simply change locomotives in Acton Yard.
It's HSTs that sometimes need turning, and that won't be a problem given
that there are triangles at both ends of the Greenford branch.
b***@puylt0wj1l821.com
2018-11-27 15:00:29 UTC
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On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 11:09:16 +0000
Post by Basil Jet
Incidentally, GWR use the Paddington
- Park Royal - Ealing - Paddington for turning trains that have
ended up the wrong way round. How will they turn trains
after the line is severed, or will the line be too busy to
even think about it?
Basil Jet .
Presumably, they'll simply change locomotives in Acton Yard.
On a related topic, I've often wondered why almost all US locomotives are
single ended. I realise the routes are long and the trains are usually topped
and tailed, but you'd think from a simple operational POV it would be simpler
to have a cab at both ends so you don't have to turn them or can only have them
leading in 1 direction.
Charles Ellson
2018-11-26 02:33:29 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Post by Charles Ellson
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 22:54:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roger Lynn
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
However, I hope that Chiltern's request for a reopened line into the new
OOC Crossrail/HS2/GWR station comes to fruition, so it can run an hourly
service to it from Milton Keynes via Aylesbury.
It seems like a stupid place to terminate - I can't see many people
getting trains in from High Wycombe to change onto HS2 for Birmingham.
Crossrail is just a glorified tube line - although I suppose the other
Chiltern trains terminate at a station with only one tube line.
Connections to Heathrow and the GWML would be useful. At the moment
getting to Heathrow from Chiltern stations is a pain and it's easier and
faster to drive or get a coach.
I wasn't suggesting it shouldn't go to OOC - just that it should go on
to Clapham Junction afterwards, giving Chiltern stations a one change
journey to Gatwick and half the country.
I don't think there would be any route beyond OOC to the West London line.
The Crossrail depot is in the way.
Round the north side meeting the WLL on the south side of Willesden
Junction IIRC.
That would miss the OOC station altogether. It would have to cross the
canal and join the WLL on the north side.
No, it would require a short curve in the vicinity of Acton Wells
Junction. (Admittedly levels might be an issue.) The curve from Acton
Wells Junction to the southbound WLL is already there, crossing the
canal twice, and not currently used by any passenger trains.
Post by Recliner
It would be a much more expensive project, and there's probably no platform
space for the trains to reverse at CLJ anyway.
Platforms 16-17 seem to be two of the least used platforms at CLJ, the
main daytime user being the mostly hourly SN service to/from WFJ/MKC
along with the rush hour SN workings to/from Shepherds Bush and some
odd LO workings. For much of the day you could die of boredom waiting
for a train on those two platforms.
Robin9
2018-11-26 10:30:16 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
No, it would require a short curve in the vicinity of Acton Wells
Junction. (Admittedly levels might be an issue.) The curve from Acton
Wells Junction to the southbound WLL is already there, crossing the
canal twice, and not currently used by any passenger trains.
--
Basil Jet .
In fact, all it requires is Old Oak to be bypassed altogether, and
Chiltern trains to be given paths on the GW main line between
West Ealing and Acton Yard. The route from Acton Yard to
Clapham Junction already exists and is a regular freight route.
No new loop would be needed


--
Robin9
Recliner
2018-11-26 13:35:27 UTC
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On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 10:30:16 +0000, Robin9
Post by Robin9
Post by Basil Jet
No, it would require a short curve in the vicinity of Acton Wells
Junction. (Admittedly levels might be an issue.) The curve from Acton
Wells Junction to the southbound WLL is already there, crossing the
canal twice, and not currently used by any passenger trains.
--
Basil Jet .
In fact, all it requires is Old Oak to be bypassed altogether, and
Chiltern trains to be given paths on the GW main line between
West Ealing and Acton Yard.
Those paths don't exist post-Crossrail. It's why the Greenford shuttle
was cut back to the new bay platform at West Ealing.

Chiltern wants to use its existing direct, fast, otherwise unused
route to dedicated platform(s) at OOC, not take a slow, congested
route, with flat junctions, shared with other GWR Relief line and WLL
services to CLJ.

This would provide a way of not only connecting to Crossrail, HS2, the
GWR and the WLL, but increasing Chiltern services without overloading
Marylebone.
Post by Robin9
The route from Acton Yard to
Clapham Junction already exists and is a regular freight route.
No new loop would be needed.
Graeme Wall
2018-11-26 09:49:57 UTC
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Post by Roger Lynn
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
However, I hope that Chiltern's request for a reopened line into the new
OOC Crossrail/HS2/GWR station comes to fruition, so it can run an hourly
service to it from Milton Keynes via Aylesbury.
It seems like a stupid place to terminate - I can't see many people
getting trains in from High Wycombe to change onto HS2 for Birmingham.
Crossrail is just a glorified tube line - although I suppose the other
Chiltern trains terminate at a station with only one tube line.
Connections to Heathrow and the GWML would be useful. At the moment
getting to Heathrow from Chiltern stations is a pain and it's easier and
faster to drive or get a coach.
Getting to Heathrow from anywhere to the west is a pain.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Recliner
2018-11-26 10:13:09 UTC
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Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roger Lynn
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
However, I hope that Chiltern's request for a reopened line into the new
OOC Crossrail/HS2/GWR station comes to fruition, so it can run an hourly
service to it from Milton Keynes via Aylesbury.
It seems like a stupid place to terminate - I can't see many people
getting trains in from High Wycombe to change onto HS2 for Birmingham.
Crossrail is just a glorified tube line - although I suppose the other
Chiltern trains terminate at a station with only one tube line.
Connections to Heathrow and the GWML would be useful. At the moment
getting to Heathrow from Chiltern stations is a pain and it's easier and
faster to drive or get a coach.
Getting to Heathrow from anywhere to the west is a pain.
Yes. Various rail links to the west and southwest have been under
discussion for decades, and still are. The station under T5 awaits the line
west, but construction still hasn't begun.

Crossrail will help a little, but it's not enough.
NY
2018-11-26 11:59:03 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Getting to Heathrow from anywhere to the west is a pain.
Yes. Various rail links to the west and southwest have been under
discussion for decades, and still are. The station under T5 awaits the line
west, but construction still hasn't begun.
Crossrail will help a little, but it's not enough.
I'm not sure why a north-to-west facing curve was never built between the
Heathrow spur and the GWML, to allow trains from Reading, Oxford, Bristol
and south Wales to reach Heathrow - even if it involved a change to a
Reading-Heathrow shuttle.

There were proposals at one time to build a spur from the
Reading-Ascot-Waterloo line near Feltham to serve Heathrow from that
direction, but I don't know whether that is still on the cards.
Graeme Wall
2018-11-26 12:54:47 UTC
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Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Getting to Heathrow from anywhere to the west is a pain.
Yes. Various rail links to the west and southwest have been under
discussion for decades, and still are. The station under T5 awaits the line
west, but construction still hasn't begun.
Crossrail will help a little, but it's not enough.
I'm not sure why a north-to-west facing curve was never built between
the Heathrow spur and the GWML, to allow trains from Reading, Oxford,
Bristol and south Wales to reach Heathrow - even if it involved a change
to a Reading-Heathrow shuttle.
There were proposals at one time to build a spur from the
Reading-Ascot-Waterloo line near Feltham to serve Heathrow from that
direction, but I don't know whether that is still on the cards.
It was never really on the cards, along with the extension of the
Slough-Windsor service to Heathrow and several other variants.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Roland Perry
2018-11-26 15:08:52 UTC
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Post by NY
Post by Recliner
Yes. Various rail links to the west and southwest have been under
discussion for decades, and still are. The station under T5 awaits
the line
west, but construction still hasn't begun.
Crossrail will help a little, but it's not enough.
I'm not sure why a north-to-west facing curve was never built between
the Heathrow spur and the GWML, to allow trains from Reading, Oxford,
Bristol and south Wales to reach Heathrow - even if it involved a
change to a Reading-Heathrow shuttle.
There were proposals at one time to build a spur from the
Reading-Ascot-Waterloo line near Feltham to serve Heathrow from that
direction, but I don't know whether that is still on the cards.
Both such routes were hailed in BAA's annual report 1998, as well as HEx
to St Pancras in addition to PAD.

Is it any wonder I'm a bit of a caller-out of rail industry vapourware?
--
Roland Perry
Mike Bristow
2018-11-28 12:33:13 UTC
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Post by NY
I'm not sure why a north-to-west facing curve was never built between the
Heathrow spur and the GWML, to allow trains from Reading, Oxford, Bristol
and south Wales to reach Heathrow - even if it involved a change to a
Reading-Heathrow shuttle.
Because the line is at capacity from Newbury to Paddington.

So which services through Reading are you going to divert to
Heathrow? They have to be fast trains, otherwise it'll be quicker
to go to non-stop Paddington and change there.

What is the number of now inconvienced passengers (that wanted
Paddington and now have to change at Reading and stand if they can
squeeze on in the peak) v the number of passengers who have a better
journey?

Note that the service pattern from Reading -> Heathrow needs to be
at least every 20 minutes to ensure that there are no passengers
who get a faster journey by travelling Reading -> Paddington ->
HEX, so you're going to have to divert a pretty large proportion
of the Reading to Paddington fasts; I'm not sure how many there
are, but losing 3tph would be very noticable.
--
Mike Bristow ***@urgle.com
Graeme Wall
2018-11-28 13:12:54 UTC
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Post by Mike Bristow
Post by NY
I'm not sure why a north-to-west facing curve was never built between the
Heathrow spur and the GWML, to allow trains from Reading, Oxford, Bristol
and south Wales to reach Heathrow - even if it involved a change to a
Reading-Heathrow shuttle.
Because the line is at capacity from Newbury to Paddington.
So which services through Reading are you going to divert to
Heathrow? They have to be fast trains, otherwise it'll be quicker
to go to non-stop Paddington and change there.
You missed the bit about a Reading - Heathrow shuttle.

One solution, given a west facing curve would be to run a limited stop
service Paddington - Heathrow - Reading and return on the current HE
frequencies.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Mike Bristow
2018-11-28 15:49:24 UTC
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Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Mike Bristow
Post by NY
I'm not sure why a north-to-west facing curve was never built between the
Heathrow spur and the GWML, to allow trains from Reading, Oxford, Bristol
and south Wales to reach Heathrow - even if it involved a change to a
Reading-Heathrow shuttle.
Because the line is at capacity from Newbury to Paddington.
So which services through Reading are you going to divert to
Heathrow? They have to be fast trains, otherwise it'll be quicker
to go to non-stop Paddington and change there.
You missed the bit about a Reading - Heathrow shuttle.
How can a Reading to Heathrow service avoid the line between Newbury
and Paddington (via Reading)? Because that whole section is at
capacity, AIUI, which was the basis for the rest of my comments.
Post by Graeme Wall
One solution, given a west facing curve would be to run a limited stop
service Paddington - Heathrow - Reading and return on the current HE
frequencies.
You can clear the paths from Paddington -> Heathrow by using this
service to replace the HE service; but where do the paths between
Heathrow -> Reading come from? That section is at capacity, too.
--
Mike Bristow ***@urgle.com
Graeme Wall
2018-11-28 16:12:57 UTC
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Post by Mike Bristow
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Mike Bristow
Post by NY
I'm not sure why a north-to-west facing curve was never built between the
Heathrow spur and the GWML, to allow trains from Reading, Oxford, Bristol
and south Wales to reach Heathrow - even if it involved a change to a
Reading-Heathrow shuttle.
Because the line is at capacity from Newbury to Paddington.
So which services through Reading are you going to divert to
Heathrow? They have to be fast trains, otherwise it'll be quicker
to go to non-stop Paddington and change there.
You missed the bit about a Reading - Heathrow shuttle.
How can a Reading to Heathrow service avoid the line between Newbury
and Paddington (via Reading)? Because that whole section is at
capacity, AIUI, which was the basis for the rest of my comments.
Given the paths are half occupied from Airport junction inward then
there should be space west of Slough on the relief lines.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Basil Jet
2018-11-28 16:49:24 UTC
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Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Mike Bristow
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Mike Bristow
Post by NY
I'm not sure why a north-to-west facing curve was never built between the
Heathrow spur and the GWML, to allow trains from Reading, Oxford, Bristol
and south Wales to reach Heathrow - even if it involved a change to a
Reading-Heathrow shuttle.
Because the line is at capacity from Newbury to Paddington.
So which services through Reading are you going to divert to
Heathrow?  They have to be fast trains, otherwise it'll be quicker
to go to non-stop Paddington and change there.
You missed the bit about a Reading - Heathrow shuttle.
How can a Reading to Heathrow service avoid the line between Newbury
and Paddington (via Reading)?  Because that whole section is at
capacity, AIUI, which was the basis for the rest of my comments.
Given the paths are half occupied from Airport junction inward then
there should be space west of Slough on the relief lines.
That would only follow if every train on the relief lines had the same
stopping pattern west of Airport Junction.
--
Basil Jet - listening... St. Vincent. Star Park. Stealing Sheep. Stephen
Mallinder. Stereolab. Steve Harley & Cockney Rebel. Steve Mackay. Steve
Mason. Steve Reich. Steve Wynn. Stiff Little Fingers. Stonephace. Stump.
Sub Sub. Subway Sect. Suede. Sufjan Stevens. Sugar. Suicidal Tendencies.
Suicide. Sun City Girls & David Oliphant. Sun Ra. Sunday Painters.
Swans. Sweet Baboo. Swell Maps. Swing Out Sister. Swollen Monkeys. Syd
Barrett. Sylvan Esso.
Recliner
2018-11-29 09:36:43 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Mike Bristow
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Mike Bristow
Post by NY
I'm not sure why a north-to-west facing curve was never built between the
Heathrow spur and the GWML, to allow trains from Reading, Oxford, Bristol
and south Wales to reach Heathrow - even if it involved a change to a
Reading-Heathrow shuttle.
Because the line is at capacity from Newbury to Paddington.
So which services through Reading are you going to divert to
Heathrow?  They have to be fast trains, otherwise it'll be quicker
to go to non-stop Paddington and change there.
You missed the bit about a Reading - Heathrow shuttle.
How can a Reading to Heathrow service avoid the line between Newbury
and Paddington (via Reading)?  Because that whole section is at
capacity, AIUI, which was the basis for the rest of my comments.
Given the paths are half occupied from Airport junction inward then
there should be space west of Slough on the relief lines.
That would only follow if every train on the relief lines had the same
stopping pattern west of Airport Junction.
Not really. As long as they have about the same number of stops, or are
efficiently flighted, there should be some spare paths west of Heathrow.
tim...
2018-12-14 13:44:38 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Roger Lynn
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
However, I hope that Chiltern's request for a reopened line into the new
OOC Crossrail/HS2/GWR station comes to fruition, so it can run an hourly
service to it from Milton Keynes via Aylesbury.
It seems like a stupid place to terminate - I can't see many people
getting trains in from High Wycombe to change onto HS2 for Birmingham.
Crossrail is just a glorified tube line - although I suppose the other
Chiltern trains terminate at a station with only one tube line.
Connections to Heathrow and the GWML would be useful. At the moment
getting to Heathrow from Chiltern stations is a pain and it's easier and
faster to drive or get a coach.
Getting to Heathrow from anywhere to the west is a pain.
Yes. Various rail links to the west and southwest have been under
discussion for decades, and still are. The station under T5 awaits the line
west, but construction still hasn't begun.
even the bus links are shite

I noticed last time I was in Woking that the airlink bus is now hourly

tim
Robin9
2018-12-15 17:54:58 UTC
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We now at last have a YouTube video with good picture quality of th
line from Northolt Junction to Greenford.



In fact it's from West Ruislip Station to the South Western Lines jus
past Acton Wells Junction. What a pity the only YouTube video of th
section between Park Royal and Greenford has such awful picture quality


--
Robin9

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