Discussion:
New tube map has mistake
(too old to reply)
Basil Jet
2018-05-23 11:31:44 UTC
Permalink
https://londonist.com/london/transport/can-you-spot-the-mistake-on-tfl-s-new-tube-map
Offramp
2018-05-23 16:39:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
https://londonist.com/london/transport/can-you-spot-the-mistake-on-tfl-s-new-tube-map
That is pretty poor. Surely proofreading these isn't hard: just give one each to about 10 people and ask for opinions.
Basil Jet
2018-05-23 18:27:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Offramp
Post by Basil Jet
https://londonist.com/london/transport/can-you-spot-the-mistake-on-tfl-s-new-tube-map
That is pretty poor. Surely proofreading these isn't hard: just give one each to about 10 people and ask for opinions.
Surely the author should have had the ability to have this version in
the foreground and have the previous one in the background and flip
between them repeatedly to make sure all differences are intentional?
John Levine
2018-05-23 19:12:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Offramp
Post by Basil Jet
https://londonist.com/london/transport/can-you-spot-the-mistake-on-tfl-s-new-tube-map
That is pretty poor. Surely proofreading these isn't hard: just give one each to about 10 people and ask for opinions.
Actually, proofreading is amazingly hard, particularly for stuff like
this that's all details.

Once I found an egregious grammatical error in the mss for one of my
books and looked back and found that it was also in the previous two
editions despite both of the authors and multiple editors proofreading
them.

I'm not saying this is an excuse, but it's definitely a reason.
--
Regards,
John Levine, ***@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
tim...
2018-05-24 09:56:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Levine
Post by Offramp
Post by Basil Jet
https://londonist.com/london/transport/can-you-spot-the-mistake-on-tfl-s-new-tube-map
That is pretty poor. Surely proofreading these isn't hard: just give one
each to about 10 people and ask for opinions.
Actually, proofreading is amazingly hard, particularly for stuff like
this that's all details.
Once I found an egregious grammatical error in the mss for one of my
books and looked back and found that it was also in the previous two
editions despite both of the authors and multiple editors proofreading
them.
I'm not saying this is an excuse, but it's definitely a reason.
--
Regards,
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
tim...
2018-05-24 09:58:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Levine
Post by Offramp
Post by Basil Jet
https://londonist.com/london/transport/can-you-spot-the-mistake-on-tfl-s-new-tube-map
That is pretty poor. Surely proofreading these isn't hard: just give one
each to about 10 people and ask for opinions.
Actually, proofreading is amazingly hard, particularly for stuff like
this that's all details.
Once I found an egregious grammatical error in the mss for one of my
books and looked back and found that it was also in the previous two
editions despite both of the authors and multiple editors proofreading
them.
Oops

I latterly discovered that I had been sending my CV out for 20 years with "a
through" instead of "a thorough" (understanding of ...)

tim
Basil Jet
2018-05-23 22:38:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
https://londonist.com/london/transport/can-you-spot-the-mistake-on-tfl-s-new-tube-map
I've now got the hand-held version of the new Tube map. I can't work out
what the purple things on the front are... shrapnel from an exploding
Crossrail substation?
jon b
2018-05-29 08:49:35 UTC
Permalink
There is another error (by omission) on there. LHR is shown in Zone 6 for both tube and TfL Rail. However it is only Z6 for travel cards and season tickets. For PAYG on TfL Rail the fare is 12 quid each way from Paddington as opposed to 6 by tube. There is a daily cap in operation but that only helps if you are going both ways, I assume TfL don't care on the assumption that they will generally fleece departing visitors but in these social media days it won't take long before people start leaving negative comments. Clearly TfL now prioritise cash over reputation...
John Levine
2018-05-29 17:38:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by jon b
There is another error (by omission) on there. LHR is shown in Zone 6 for both tube and TfL Rail. However it is only Z6 for travel cards and
season tickets. For PAYG on TfL Rail the fare is 12 quid each way from Paddington as opposed to 6 by tube.
Hey, it's now a super cheap £10.20 peak, £10.10 off peak, £6.65 with a railcard.

It is not my impression that many tourists ever took the Connect.

They take the heavily touted HeX or the underground. I even know
people who swear by the coach to Victoria, but I don't understand why
other than that they believe that all airports are the same and their
home airport only has coaches.
--
Regards,
John Levine, ***@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Arthur Conan Doyle
2018-05-29 20:11:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Levine
It is not my impression that many tourists ever took the Connect.
I think that's intentional. HEX signage in the T2/T3 walkway is overwhelming,
along with the agents selling tickets in the hallway. LU platform is easy to
find and buy tickets for.
Roland Perry
2018-05-29 20:39:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by John Levine
It is not my impression that many tourists ever took the Connect.
I think that's intentional. HEX signage in the T2/T3 walkway is overwhelming,
along with the agents selling tickets in the hallway. LU platform is easy to
find and buy tickets for.
Connect was never primarily intended for the public to use, it's
basically an airport-staff-train that others can catch if they really
insist.
--
Roland Perry
Someone Somewhere
2018-05-29 22:18:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by John Levine
It is not my impression that many tourists ever took the Connect.
I think that's intentional. HEX signage in the T2/T3 walkway is overwhelming,
along with the agents selling tickets in the hallway. LU platform is easy to
find and buy tickets for.
Connect was never primarily intended for the public to use, it's
basically an airport-staff-train that others can catch if they really
insist.
This is often repeated, but I've never seen any evidence of the fact -
can you cite something?
Roland Perry
2018-05-30 06:09:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by John Levine
It is not my impression that many tourists ever took the Connect.
I think that's intentional. HEX signage in the T2/T3 walkway is overwhelming,
along with the agents selling tickets in the hallway. LU platform is easy to
find and buy tickets for.
Connect was never primarily intended for the public to use, it's
basically an airport-staff-train that others can catch if they really
insist.
This is often repeated, but I've never seen any evidence of the fact -
can you cite something?
You'd probably have to look for Heathrow Airport strategic travel plans.
--
Roland Perry
John Levine
2018-05-30 18:10:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Roland Perry
Connect was never primarily intended for the public to use, it's
basically an airport-staff-train that others can catch if they really
insist.
This is often repeated, but I've never seen any evidence of the fact -
can you cite something?
You'd probably have to look for Heathrow Airport strategic travel plans.
The fares certainly give you that message. The single fares are
rather high, but the commuter fares are the same as for the tube.

Before the recent change, you could get a 75% discount on adult single
and season tickets if you had an airport ID. That seems fairly clear.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170421060128/https://www.heathrowconnect.com/airport-workers
--
Regards,
John Levine, ***@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Arthur Conan Doyle
2018-05-30 23:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
You'd probably have to look for Heathrow Airport strategic travel plans.
This article is quite dated, and I'm not sure the detail about fares is still
valid, but it does show there was intent to protect HX.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/heathrow-connect-close-to-takeoff.html


"Because Heathrow Connect services will not be advertised as through trains and
will always be overtaken en route, Murphy believes most London - Heathrow
passengers will continue to use the fast trains. There will be no through
tickets other than the full Heathrow Express fares."
Recliner
2018-05-30 23:28:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Roland Perry
You'd probably have to look for Heathrow Airport strategic travel plans.
This article is quite dated, and I'm not sure the detail about fares is still
valid, but it does show there was intent to protect HX.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/heathrow-connect-close-to-takeoff.html
"Because Heathrow Connect services will not be advertised as through trains and
will always be overtaken en route, Murphy believes most London - Heathrow
passengers will continue to use the fast trains. There will be no through
tickets other than the full Heathrow Express fares."
Thanks, that's an interesting article from 14 years ago. It's an
interesting reminder of how projects slip even when they're not notoriously
delayed:

"In the longer term, Heathrow Connect may be absorbed by Crossrail Line 1,
which plans to operate four trains/h into Heathrow Airport from around
2014. BAA Rail is also pushing ahead with the Airtrack project to extend
the Terminal 5 branch to carry local services to and from the southwest
suburbs."

So the full Crossrail 1 will finally run to Heathrow more than five years
later than was expected back in 2004, and Airtrack is still no more than a
(renamed) concept, with no possibility of opening before 2030.
Roland Perry
2018-05-31 07:02:30 UTC
Permalink
In message
<1063287358.549415196.454958.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-sept
ember.org>, at 23:28:08 on Wed, 30 May 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/heathrow-connect-close-to-takeoff.html
"Because Heathrow Connect services will not be advertised as through trains and
will always be overtaken en route, Murphy believes most London - Heathrow
passengers will continue to use the fast trains. There will be no through
tickets other than the full Heathrow Express fares."
Thanks, that's an interesting article from 14 years ago. It's an
interesting reminder of how projects slip even when they're not notoriously
"In the longer term, Heathrow Connect may be absorbed by Crossrail Line 1,
which plans to operate four trains/h into Heathrow Airport from around
2014. BAA Rail is also pushing ahead with the Airtrack project to extend
the Terminal 5 branch to carry local services to and from the southwest
suburbs."
So the full Crossrail 1 will finally run to Heathrow more than five years
later than was expected back in 2004, and Airtrack is still no more than a
(renamed) concept, with no possibility of opening before 2030.
BAA was issuing maps in 1998 showing Heathrow Express to St Pancras [via
West Hampstead] "From 2001", plus undated Airtrack and the western link
to GWML.

London Underground in 1995, were claiming St Pancras would open for
Channel Tunnel traffic in 2002 and the Jubilee Line extension to
Stratford by 1998. Crossrail was "planned" (no date given). Other
projects included the Croxley Rail link, the East London Line Extension
(finally opened in 2010), and the least delayed item the Heathrow T5
station, opened in 2008 versus a predicted 2003.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-05-31 08:20:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 23:28:08 on Wed, 30 May 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/heathrow-connect-close-to-takeoff.html
"Because Heathrow Connect services will not be advertised as through trains and
will always be overtaken en route, Murphy believes most London - Heathrow
passengers will continue to use the fast trains. There will be no through
tickets other than the full Heathrow Express fares."
Thanks, that's an interesting article from 14 years ago. It's an
interesting reminder of how projects slip even when they're not notoriously
"In the longer term, Heathrow Connect may be absorbed by Crossrail Line 1,
which plans to operate four trains/h into Heathrow Airport from around
2014. BAA Rail is also pushing ahead with the Airtrack project to extend
the Terminal 5 branch to carry local services to and from the southwest
suburbs."
So the full Crossrail 1 will finally run to Heathrow more than five years
later than was expected back in 2004, and Airtrack is still no more than a
(renamed) concept, with no possibility of opening before 2030.
BAA was issuing maps in 1998 showing Heathrow Express to St Pancras [via
West Hampstead] "From 2001", plus undated Airtrack and the western link
to GWML.
London Underground in 1995, were claiming St Pancras would open for
Channel Tunnel traffic in 2002 and the Jubilee Line extension to
Stratford by 1998.
That was close: it opened in 1999.
Post by Roland Perry
Crossrail was "planned" (no date given). Other
projects included the Croxley Rail link, the East London Line Extension
(finally opened in 2010), and the least delayed item the Heathrow T5
station, opened in 2008 versus a predicted 2003.
At least it opened along with the terminal.
Roland Perry
2018-05-31 09:52:54 UTC
Permalink
In message
<1459199219.549447408.026289.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-sept
ember.org>, at 08:20:54 on Thu, 31 May 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
London Underground in 1995, were claiming St Pancras would open for
Channel Tunnel traffic in 2002 and the Jubilee Line extension to
Stratford by 1998.
That was close: it opened in 1999.
"Construction officially started in December 1993, expected to take
53 months [#8, which is Hansard June 1993]." (Wikipedia)

1/1/93+53mths = Jun97; thus I suspect the "by 1998" above was an attempt
to convey "might slip to the end of 1997".

I'll give the benefit of the doubt to Wikipedia that subsequent dates
quoted are a correct reflection of the cites...

"By November 1997 a September 1998 date was planned.[10] By June 1998,
opening was planned in Spring 1999.[11] By November 1998, a phased
opening, previously rejected, was being considered, with Stratford to
North Greenwich planned for spring 1999, to Waterloo for summer 1999,
and the link to the Jubilee line for autumn 1999.[12][13] This scheme
was followed, with the first phase opening on 14 May 1999, the second on
24 September, and the third on 20 November. Westminster, complicated by
the interface with the subsurface platforms, which remained in
operation, opened on 22 December 1999, shortly before the Millennium
Dome deadline".

So yes, a gentle slide, rather than a major calamity.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-05-31 10:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 08:20:54 on Thu, 31 May 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
London Underground in 1995, were claiming St Pancras would open for
Channel Tunnel traffic in 2002 and the Jubilee Line extension to
Stratford by 1998.
That was close: it opened in 1999.
"Construction officially started in December 1993, expected to take
53 months [#8, which is Hansard June 1993]." (Wikipedia)
1/1/93+53mths = Jun97; thus I suspect the "by 1998" above was an attempt
to convey "might slip to the end of 1997".
Er, Dec 1993 isn't 1/1/93. 53 months after Dec 1993 would be April 1998.
Post by Roland Perry
I'll give the benefit of the doubt to Wikipedia that subsequent dates
quoted are a correct reflection of the cites...
"By November 1997 a September 1998 date was planned.[10] By June 1998,
opening was planned in Spring 1999.[11] By November 1998, a phased
opening, previously rejected, was being considered, with Stratford to
North Greenwich planned for spring 1999, to Waterloo for summer 1999,
and the link to the Jubilee line for autumn 1999.[12][13] This scheme
was followed, with the first phase opening on 14 May 1999, the second on
24 September, and the third on 20 November. Westminster, complicated by
the interface with the subsurface platforms, which remained in
operation, opened on 22 December 1999, shortly before the Millennium
Dome deadline".
So yes, a gentle slide, rather than a major calamity.
The bigger slippage was the signalling. The originally planned moving block
signalling had to be hurriedly replaced by conventional signalling so as to
get the extension open during 1999, just in time for the hard deadline of
the midnight party in the big tent.

In fact, they only got the moving block signalling working in mid 2011,
just before the next hard deadline of the London Olympics:

<http://www.risktec.tuv.com/knowledge-bank/technical-articles/sending-the-right-signals---new-signalling-technology-for-the-jubilee-line.aspx>
Roland Perry
2018-05-31 10:59:02 UTC
Permalink
In message
<1765551046.549453986.077514.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-sept
ember.org>, at 10:17:43 on Thu, 31 May 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 08:20:54 on Thu, 31 May 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
London Underground in 1995, were claiming St Pancras would open for
Channel Tunnel traffic in 2002 and the Jubilee Line extension to
Stratford by 1998.
That was close: it opened in 1999.
"Construction officially started in December 1993, expected to take
53 months [#8, which is Hansard June 1993]." (Wikipedia)
1/1/93+53mths = Jun97; thus I suspect the "by 1998" above was an attempt
to convey "might slip to the end of 1997".
Er, Dec 1993 isn't 1/1/93. 53 months after Dec 1993 would be April 1998.
True, I really meant 1/1/94 (I doubt they did much over the Xmas break),
so we appear to have converged on "by the end of Q2 1998".
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
I'll give the benefit of the doubt to Wikipedia that subsequent dates
quoted are a correct reflection of the cites...
"By November 1997 a September 1998 date was planned.[10] By June 1998,
opening was planned in Spring 1999.[11] By November 1998, a phased
opening, previously rejected, was being considered, with Stratford to
North Greenwich planned for spring 1999, to Waterloo for summer 1999,
and the link to the Jubilee line for autumn 1999.[12][13] This scheme
was followed, with the first phase opening on 14 May 1999, the second on
24 September, and the third on 20 November. Westminster, complicated by
the interface with the subsurface platforms, which remained in
operation, opened on 22 December 1999, shortly before the Millennium
Dome deadline".
So yes, a gentle slide, rather than a major calamity.
The bigger slippage was the signalling. The originally planned moving block
Biggest cause of the slippage, perhaps, but every project will have one
of those, and it's failing to allow for that inevitability which is the
downfall of most such early predictions.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2018-05-31 06:50:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Roland Perry
You'd probably have to look for Heathrow Airport strategic travel plans.
This article is quite dated, and I'm not sure the detail about fares is still
valid, but it does show there was intent to protect HX.
With respect to airline passengers. That leaves airport workers (who get
subsidised fares too).
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/heathrow-connect-clo
se-to-takeoff.html
"Because Heathrow Connect services will not be advertised as through trains and
will always be overtaken en route, Murphy believes most London - Heathrow
passengers will continue to use the fast trains. There will be no through
tickets other than the full Heathrow Express fares."
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2018-05-31 08:44:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Roland Perry
You'd probably have to look for Heathrow Airport strategic travel plans.
This article is quite dated, and I'm not sure the detail about fares is still
valid, but it does show there was intent to protect HX.
With respect to airline passengers. That leaves airport workers (who get
subsidised fares too).
Surely the point about airport workers is that they are going to be making a
journey from one of the local stations

Almost none of them are going to be doing a journey for which a fast service
from Padd is helpful

tim
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2018-05-30 03:06:20 UTC
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