Where to put my railcard on my Oyter card at Heathrow?

[John Levine]

On Sunday morning I expect to be flying into Heathrow for the first
time in several years. I have an Oyster card which the TfL website
says still has credit. (No thanks to the nitwits who geoblock US
networks from some but not all of the TfL web site.) I have a senior
railcard on my phone, just renewed on the railcard web site.

Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card? The TfL
web site says at any underground or Liz line station but in my
experience, there is often an implicit, well, except not at Heathrow
of course. The rail station is managed by HeX who are not big Oyster
enthusiasts. Any suggestions? I'll be arriving at T2.

[Recliner]

Post by John Levine
On Sunday morning I expect to be flying into Heathrow for the first
time in several years. I have an Oyster card which the TfL website
says still has credit. (No thanks to the nitwits who geoblock US
networks from some but not all of the TfL web site.) I have a senior
railcard on my phone, just renewed on the railcard web site.
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card? The TfL
web site says at any underground or Liz line station but in my
experience, there is often an implicit, well, except not at Heathrow
of course. The rail station is managed by HeX who are not big Oyster
enthusiasts. Any suggestions? I'll be arriving at T2.

I can't answer your question directly, but the LHR T23 LU station is pretty
large, and usually has plenty of (apparently) LU staff on duty. It's
completely separate (and some distance) from the Liz/HEx station. [The LU
station is adjacent to T2 and the Liz station to T3.]

[Roland Perry]

Post by John Levine
On Sunday morning I expect to be flying into Heathrow for the first
time in several years. I have an Oyster card which the TfL website
says still has credit. (No thanks to the nitwits who geoblock US
networks from some but not all of the TfL web site.) I have a senior
railcard on my phone, just renewed on the railcard web site.
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card? The TfL
web site says at any underground or Liz line station but in my
experience, there is often an implicit, well, except not at Heathrow
of course. The rail station is managed by HeX who are not big Oyster
enthusiasts. Any suggestions? I'll be arriving at T2.

It ought to be possible to do this at any facility which has TfL ticket
machines, and Tfl barriers between you and the trains. There should be
"roving" TfL staff who will sign themselves into one of the TVMs and do
the deed for you.

I've not used the TfL station at T5, but I think the ones at T4 and T2
are separate from the HEx stations.

Incidentally, I was going to ask in another thread, but I don't think
got around to it yet: Does the adding of a railcard to an Oyster
automatically expire when that railcard expires, or does the holder of
the Oyster either have to get it manually removed (or replace the
Railcard) on expiry.

I have an Oyster with a 3yr Senior Railcard added about four years ago,
but I didn't renew the Railcard because for obvious reasons there's been
some disincentives to travelling during the pandemic. If I were to go to
London and use that Oyster, would I have silently [and correctly] lost
any discounts applicable, or alternatively be at risk of claiming a
discount that I wasn't entitled to?

[Tim Woodall]

Post by Roland Perry
Incidentally, I was going to ask in another thread, but I don't think
got around to it yet: Does the adding of a railcard to an Oyster
automatically expire when that railcard expires, or does the holder of
the Oyster either have to get it manually removed (or replace the
Railcard) on expiry.

It auto-expires. At least for a gold card.

Post by Roland Perry
I have an Oyster with a 3yr Senior Railcard added about four years ago,
but I didn't renew the Railcard because for obvious reasons there's been
some disincentives to travelling during the pandemic. If I were to go to
London and use that Oyster, would I have silently [and correctly] lost
any discounts applicable, or alternatively be at risk of claiming a
discount that I wasn't entitled to?

[Roland Perry]

Post by Tim Woodall

Post by Roland Perry
Incidentally, I was going to ask in another thread, but I don't think
got around to it yet: Does the adding of a railcard to an Oyster
automatically expire when that railcard expires, or does the holder of
the Oyster either have to get it manually removed (or replace the
Railcard) on expiry.

It auto-expires. At least for a gold card.

I had a Senior railcard (which were available in 1yr and 3yr versions).
I bought a 3yr one, two of which was wasted because of lockdowns.

Post by Tim Woodall

Post by Roland Perry
I have an Oyster with a 3yr Senior Railcard added about four years ago,
but I didn't renew the Railcard because for obvious reasons there's been
some disincentives to travelling during the pandemic. If I were to go to
London and use that Oyster, would I have silently [and correctly] lost
any discounts applicable, or alternatively be at risk of claiming a
discount that I wasn't entitled to?

[John Levine]

According to Roland Perry <***@perry.co.uk>:
W>>It auto-expires. At least for a gold card.

Post by Roland Perry
I had a Senior railcard (which were available in 1yr and 3yr versions).
I bought a 3yr one, two of which was wasted because of lockdowns.

I'm pretty sure my previous senior card deleted itself from my Oyster
when it expired.

I'll see what happens at the T123 underground station on Sunday and will
let you know.

By the way I got my previous railcard entirely online. I uploaded a scan of
the photo page of my US passport and it said OK, looks like you're old enough
and issued it. This time I just had to log in and renew and say I still look
like the picture they already have. (Well, *I* think I do.)

[Arthur Conan Doyle]

Post by John Levine
US passport

??? From eligibility page: Have a valid UK Driving Licence, Passport, National
Identity card.

--
Usenet: The world's first (and best) social network.

[John Levine]

Post by Arthur Conan Doyle

Post by John Levine
US passport

??? From eligibility page: Have a valid UK Driving Licence, Passport, National
Identity card.

"Passport" turns out to mean "Passport", not just "UK Passport". I was pleasantly surprised.

I really am old enough, I'm not trying to cheat. I got my first railcard over the counter
at Euston and they thought my US passport was suitable, too.

[Roland Perry]

Post by John Levine

Post by Arthur Conan Doyle

Post by John Levine
US passport

??? From eligibility page: Have a valid UK Driving Licence, Passport, National
Identity card.

"Passport" turns out to mean "Passport", not just "UK Passport". I was pleasantly surprised.

And of course there's no such thing as a UK National Identity Card.

Post by John Levine
I really am old enough, I'm not trying to cheat. I got my first
railcard over the counter at Euston and they thought my US passport was
suitable, too.

[Arthur Conan Doyle]

Post by John Levine
"Passport" turns out to mean "Passport", not just "UK Passport". I was pleasantly surprised.
I really am old enough, I'm not trying to cheat. I got my first railcard over the counter
at Euston and they thought my US passport was suitable, too.

Cool. Learn something new every day!

--
Usenet: The world's first (and best) social network.

[Marland]

Post by John Levine
On Sunday morning I expect to be flying into Heathrow for the first
time in several years. I have an Oyster card which the TfL website
says still has credit. (No thanks to the nitwits who geoblock US
networks from some but not all of the TfL web site.) I have a senior
railcard on my phone, just renewed on the railcard web site.
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card? The TfL
web site says at any underground or Liz line station but in my
experience, there is often an implicit, well, except not at Heathrow
of course. The rail station is managed by HeX who are not big Oyster
enthusiasts. Any suggestions? I'll be arriving at T2.

Late to this thread so I’m asking how you got on, my understanding is that
early issues of Oyster while still usable if they have credit or can be
topped up could not be linked to a Railcard for technical reasons, I had
to update ours and transfer any balance when we reached the right age to
get a senior railcard.

You say you have not visited for awhile so is your Oyster and old issue?

GH

[Roland Perry]

Post by Marland

Post by John Levine
On Sunday morning I expect to be flying into Heathrow for the first
time in several years. I have an Oyster card which the TfL website
says still has credit. (No thanks to the nitwits who geoblock US
networks from some but not all of the TfL web site.) I have a senior
railcard on my phone, just renewed on the railcard web site.
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card? The TfL
web site says at any underground or Liz line station but in my
experience, there is often an implicit, well, except not at Heathrow
of course. The rail station is managed by HeX who are not big Oyster
enthusiasts. Any suggestions? I'll be arriving at T2.

Late to this thread so I’m asking how you got on, my understanding is that
early issues of Oyster while still usable if they have credit or can be
topped up could not be linked to a Railcard for technical reasons, I had
to update ours and transfer any balance when we reached the right age to
get a senior railcard.
You say you have not visited for awhile so is your Oyster and old issue?

The OP said "I'm pretty sure my previous senior card deleted itself from
my Oyster when it expired", so this is a repeat exercise.

[Recliner]

Post by John Levine
On Sunday morning I expect to be flying into Heathrow for the first
time in several years. I have an Oyster card which the TfL website
says still has credit. (No thanks to the nitwits who geoblock US
networks from some but not all of the TfL web site.) I have a senior
railcard on my phone, just renewed on the railcard web site.
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card? The TfL
web site says at any underground or Liz line station but in my
experience, there is often an implicit, well, except not at Heathrow
of course. The rail station is managed by HeX who are not big Oyster
enthusiasts. Any suggestions? I'll be arriving at T2.

How did you get on getting it done at Heathrow?

[John Levine]

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card?

How did you get on getting it done at Heathrow?

It worked great. In the underground station at the ticket machines
I asked one of the staff helping the clueless tourists and he did it
right there using features of the ticket machines that his key
enabled.

The only hitch is that I renewed my railcard for three years and for
some reason it gave me three years and an extra week. When we put in
the expiration date, the ticket machine said that's invalid, but when
I suggested he try three years from the current date, it worked.

My trip from Heathrow to Z1 was a reasonable £2.30. The trip back
on Friday (the one with the vanishing Circle line) was £5.50 which
I suppose was the peak fare.

[Recliner]

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card?

How did you get on getting it done at Heathrow?

It worked great. In the underground station at the ticket machines
I asked one of the staff helping the clueless tourists and he did it
right there using features of the ticket machines that his key
enabled.

Sounds like they were TfL, not HAL, staff.

Post by John Levine
The only hitch is that I renewed my railcard for three years and for
some reason it gave me three years and an extra week. When we put in
the expiration date, the ticket machine said that's invalid, but when
I suggested he try three years from the current date, it worked.
My trip from Heathrow to Z1 was a reasonable Ģ2.30. The trip back
on Friday (the one with the vanishing Circle line) was Ģ5.50 which
I suppose was the peak fare.

The Z1-LHR Tube fares (ignoring the railcard) are:

Peak: £5.50
Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900.

Off Peak: £3.50
At all other times including public holidays.

Cash £6.30

So it looks like your railcard wasn't applied to the return trip. I wonder
why not?

<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder>

It would have been much more expensive if you'd managed to use the Liz:
Peak : £12.80
Off Peak: £10.80

[John Levine]

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner
How did you get on getting it done at Heathrow?

It worked great. In the underground station at the ticket machines
I asked one of the staff helping the clueless tourists and he did it
right there using features of the ticket machines that his key
enabled.

Sounds like they were TfL, not HAL, staff.

Since it was the underground station, not the railway station, well, yeah.

I suppose I could have tried using my Oyster on the Liz after I got my
card set up. but it was Sunday.

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
My trip from Heathrow to Z1 was a reasonable Ģ2.30. The trip back
on Friday (the one with the vanishing Circle line) was Ģ5.50 which
I suppose was the peak fare.

Peak: £5.50
Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900.
Off Peak: £3.50
At all other times including public holidays.
Cash £6.30
So it looks like your railcard wasn't applied to the return trip. I wonder
why not?

Because it was 0730 on a Friday and the railcard discount only applies off peak.

Post by Recliner
Peak : £12.80
Off Peak: £10.80

Well, £7.20 off peak with the discount but potentially faster and less
crowded. I expect to be back in the fall at a conference at the
Metropole which is walking distance from Paddington so it'll be the Liz
unless I remember to get those £5.50 HeX super advance tickets.

[Recliner]

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner
How did you get on getting it done at Heathrow?

It worked great. In the underground station at the ticket machines
I asked one of the staff helping the clueless tourists and he did it
right there using features of the ticket machines that his key
enabled.

Sounds like they were TfL, not HAL, staff.

Since it was the underground station, not the railway station, well, yeah.

You weren't sure originally.

Post by John Levine
I suppose I could have tried using my Oyster on the Liz after I got my
card set up. but it was Sunday.

You could have used the Liz to Paddington, but there's nothing new to see.

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
My trip from Heathrow to Z1 was a reasonable Ģ2.30. The trip back
on Friday (the one with the vanishing Circle line) was Ģ5.50 which
I suppose was the peak fare.

Peak: £5.50
Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900.
Off Peak: £3.50
At all other times including public holidays.
Cash £6.30
So it looks like your railcard wasn't applied to the return trip. I wonder
why not?

Because it was 0730 on a Friday and the railcard discount only applies off peak.

Ah, yes, I'd forgotten that.

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner
Peak : £12.80
Off Peak: £10.80

Well, £7.20 off peak with the discount but potentially faster and less
crowded.

Yes, probably, although the timing depends on where in London you're
starting from. From many places, the Tube may actually be quicker, though
more crowded (but the seats are more comfortable). In hot weather, the
airconditioned, much more spacious, 345s are more pleasant, despite the
hard seats.

Post by John Levine
I expect to be back in the fall at a conference at the
Metropole which is walking distance from Paddington so it'll be the Liz
unless I remember to get those £5.50 HeX super advance tickets.

Yes, the HEx is good value with those tickets.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card?

How did you get on getting it done at Heathrow?

It worked great. In the underground station at the ticket machines
I asked one of the staff helping the clueless tourists and he did it
right there using features of the ticket machines that his key
enabled.

Sounds like they were TfL, not HAL, staff.

Why would they be HAL staff?

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
The only hitch is that I renewed my railcard for three years and for
some reason it gave me three years and an extra week. When we put in
the expiration date, the ticket machine said that's invalid, but when
I suggested he try three years from the current date, it worked.
My trip from Heathrow to Z1 was a reasonable 0 >> on Friday (the one with the vanishing Circle line) was 0 >> I suppose was the peak fare.

Peak: £5.50
Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900.
Off Peak: £3.50
At all other times including public holidays.
Cash £6.30
So it looks like your railcard wasn't applied to the return trip. I wonder
why not?

"Time Restrictions:

Your Senior Railcard is NOT valid when travelling between two stations
in the Network Railcard area of validity during morning peak time."

Post by Recliner
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder>
Peak : £12.80
Off Peak: £10.80

[Roland Perry]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card?

How did you get on getting it done at Heathrow?

It worked great. In the underground station at the ticket machines
I asked one of the staff helping the clueless tourists and he did it
right there using features of the ticket machines that his key
enabled.

Sounds like they were TfL, not HAL, staff.

Why would they be HAL staff?

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
The only hitch is that I renewed my railcard for three years and for
some reason it gave me three years and an extra week. When we put in
the expiration date, the ticket machine said that's invalid, but when
I suggested he try three years from the current date, it worked.
My trip from Heathrow to Z1 was a reasonable 0 >> on Friday (the one
with the vanishing Circle line) was 0 >> I suppose was the peak fare.

Peak: £5.50
Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900.
Off Peak: £3.50
At all other times including public holidays.
Cash £6.30
So it looks like your railcard wasn't applied to the return trip. I wonder
why not?

Your Senior Railcard is NOT valid when travelling between two stations
in the Network Railcard area of validity during morning peak time."

... which is not terribly well worded. *Both* stations have to be in the
NSE area to invalidate the Railcard. I've investigated getting a ticket
from Shippea Hill (which is one station outside) to London, in order to
qualify, and then use BoJ rules to get on the train at Ely. [Which is
the kind of loophole they invented BoJ rules to play cat and mouse with,
not because they hate people making 'normal' BoJ's]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder>
Peak : £12.80
Off Peak: £10.80

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card?

How did you get on getting it done at Heathrow?

It worked great. In the underground station at the ticket machines
I asked one of the staff helping the clueless tourists and he did it
right there using features of the ticket machines that his key
enabled.

Sounds like they were TfL, not HAL, staff.

Why would they be HAL staff?

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
The only hitch is that I renewed my railcard for three years and for
some reason it gave me three years and an extra week. When we put in
the expiration date, the ticket machine said that's invalid, but when
I suggested he try three years from the current date, it worked.
My trip from Heathrow to Z1 was a reasonable 0 >> on Friday (the one
with the vanishing Circle line) was 0 >> I suppose was the peak fare.

Peak: £5.50
Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900.
Off Peak: £3.50
At all other times including public holidays.
Cash £6.30
So it looks like your railcard wasn't applied to the return trip. I wonder
why not?

Your Senior Railcard is NOT valid when travelling between two stations
in the Network Railcard area of validity during morning peak time."

... which is not terribly well worded. *Both* stations have to be in the
NSE area to invalidate the Railcard.

That's an interesting point: are the Heathrow rail stations in the NSE
area? The stations opened after NSE had gone, and wouldn't have been owned
or run by it even if it still existed.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card?

How did you get on getting it done at Heathrow?

It worked great. In the underground station at the ticket machines
I asked one of the staff helping the clueless tourists and he did it
right there using features of the ticket machines that his key
enabled.

Sounds like they were TfL, not HAL, staff.

Why would they be HAL staff?

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
The only hitch is that I renewed my railcard for three years and for
some reason it gave me three years and an extra week. When we put in
the expiration date, the ticket machine said that's invalid, but when
I suggested he try three years from the current date, it worked.
My trip from Heathrow to Z1 was a reasonable 0 >> on Friday (the one
with the vanishing Circle line) was 0 >> I suppose was the peak fare.

Peak: £5.50
Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900.
Off Peak: £3.50
At all other times including public holidays.
Cash £6.30
So it looks like your railcard wasn't applied to the return trip. I wonder
why not?

Your Senior Railcard is NOT valid when travelling between two stations
in the Network Railcard area of validity during morning peak time."

... which is not terribly well worded. *Both* stations have to be in the
NSE area to invalidate the Railcard.

That's an interesting point: are the Heathrow rail stations in the NSE
area? The stations opened after NSE had gone, and wouldn't have been owned
or run by it even if it still existed.

The official wording is "Network Railcard Area", and as far as I'm aware
that's defined by the boundaries of what used to be called NSE, a term
maybe more people are familiar with.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card?

How did you get on getting it done at Heathrow?

It worked great. In the underground station at the ticket machines
I asked one of the staff helping the clueless tourists and he did it
right there using features of the ticket machines that his key
enabled.

Sounds like they were TfL, not HAL, staff.

Why would they be HAL staff?
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card? The TfL web site
says at any underground or Liz line station but in my experience, there is often
an implicit, well, except not at Heathrow of course. The rail station is managed
by HeX who are not big Oyster enthusiasts. Any suggestions? I'll be arriving at T2.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card?

How did you get on getting it done at Heathrow?

It worked great. In the underground station at the ticket machines
I asked one of the staff helping the clueless tourists and he did it
right there using features of the ticket machines that his key
enabled.

Sounds like they were TfL, not HAL, staff.

Why would they be HAL staff?
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card? The TfL
web site says at any underground or Liz line station but in my
experience, there is often an implicit, well, except not at Heathrow
of course. The rail station is managed by HeX who are not big Oyster
enthusiasts. Any suggestions? I'll be arriving at T2.

The T2 station is managed by HEx, but as we've seen in the past (if
Graeme is correct) despite Guildford being "managed by" Network Rail,
the retail ticketing aspect is done by SWT.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card?

How did you get on getting it done at Heathrow?

It worked great.  In the underground station at the ticket machines
I asked one of the staff helping the clueless tourists and he did it
right there using features of the ticket machines that his key
enabled.

Sounds like they were TfL, not HAL, staff.

Why would they be HAL staff?
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card? The TfL
web site  says at any underground or Liz line station but in my
experience, there is often  an implicit, well, except not at Heathrow
of course. The rail station is managed  by HeX who are not big Oyster
enthusiasts. Any suggestions? I'll be arriving at T2.

The T2 station is managed by HEx, but as we've seen in the past (if
Graeme is correct) despite Guildford being "managed by" Network Rail,
the retail ticketing aspect is done by SWT.

The guys I've seen servicing the machines wear SWR branded outfits.
Can't think I've seen Network Rail uniforms except for obvious track
workers/engineers.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card?

How did you get on getting it done at Heathrow?

It worked great.  In the underground station at the ticket machines
I asked one of the staff helping the clueless tourists and he did it
right there using features of the ticket machines that his key
enabled.

Sounds like they were TfL, not HAL, staff.

Why would they be HAL staff?
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card? The
TfL web site  says at any underground or Liz line station but in my
experience, there is often  an implicit, well, except not at
Heathrow of course. The rail station is managed  by HeX who are not
big Oyster enthusiasts. Any suggestions? I'll be arriving at T2.

The T2 station is managed by HEx, but as we've seen in the past (if
Graeme is correct) despite Guildford being "managed by" Network Rail,
the retail ticketing aspect is done by SWT.

The guys I've seen servicing the machines wear SWR branded outfits.
Can't think I've seen Network Rail uniforms except for obvious track
workers/engineers.

Kings Cross is another (and more typical) "Managed by Network Rail"
station, and the ticket officies[1] ticket machines and barrier staff
are TOC branded. Probably the platform staff too.

[1] Does KGX still have a GN ticket office? StP had Thameslink (nee FCC)
and MML in addition to Eurostar and of course the three tube
concourses between them are staffed by TfL with TfL branded TVMs.

[Anna Noyd-Dryver]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card?

How did you get on getting it done at Heathrow?

It worked great.  In the underground station at the ticket machines
I asked one of the staff helping the clueless tourists and he did it
right there using features of the ticket machines that his key
enabled.

Sounds like they were TfL, not HAL, staff.

Why would they be HAL staff?
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card? The
TfL web site  says at any underground or Liz line station but in my
experience, there is often  an implicit, well, except not at
Heathrow of course. The rail station is managed  by HeX who are not
big Oyster enthusiasts. Any suggestions? I'll be arriving at T2.

The T2 station is managed by HEx, but as we've seen in the past (if
Graeme is correct) despite Guildford being "managed by" Network Rail,
the retail ticketing aspect is done by SWT.

The guys I've seen servicing the machines wear SWR branded outfits.
Can't think I've seen Network Rail uniforms except for obvious track
workers/engineers.

Kings Cross is another (and more typical) "Managed by Network Rail"
station, and the ticket officies[1] ticket machines and barrier staff
are TOC branded. Probably the platform staff too.
[1] Does KGX still have a GN ticket office? StP had Thameslink (nee FCC)
and MML in addition to Eurostar and of course the three tube
concourses between them are staffed by TfL with TfL branded TVMs.

Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it; operation of HEx
(driving, plus supply and maintenance of trains) is now contracted to gWr,
but I don't know about station staff, nor whether the arrangements are
different at Paddington than at Heathrow.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

[Roland Perry]

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card?

How did you get on getting it done at Heathrow?

It worked great.  In the underground station at the ticket machines
I asked one of the staff helping the clueless tourists and he did it
right there using features of the ticket machines that his key
enabled.

Sounds like they were TfL, not HAL, staff.

Why would they be HAL staff?
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card? The
TfL web site  says at any underground or Liz line station but in my
experience, there is often  an implicit, well, except not at
Heathrow of course. The rail station is managed  by HeX who are not
big Oyster enthusiasts. Any suggestions? I'll be arriving at T2.

The T2 station is managed by HEx, but as we've seen in the past (if
Graeme is correct) despite Guildford being "managed by" Network Rail,
the retail ticketing aspect is done by SWT.

The guys I've seen servicing the machines wear SWR branded outfits.
Can't think I've seen Network Rail uniforms except for obvious track
workers/engineers.

Kings Cross is another (and more typical) "Managed by Network Rail"
station, and the ticket officies[1] ticket machines and barrier staff
are TOC branded. Probably the platform staff too.
[1] Does KGX still have a GN ticket office? StP had Thameslink (nee FCC)
and MML in addition to Eurostar and of course the three tube
concourses between them are staffed by TfL with TfL branded TVMs.

Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it since
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
operation of HEx (driving, plus supply and maintenance of trains) is
now contracted to gWr, but I don't know about station staff, nor
whether the arrangements are different at Paddington than at Heathrow.

[John Levine]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it since
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

Sheesh. I think we've all been to Heathrow enough to realize that the
Hex and tube stations for T23 are different even though close to each other.

For anyone who hasn't been following on, I got my Oyster card
senior-ized at a ticket machine at the tube station. I would be
surprised if the machines at the rail station could do that. The last
time I checked (a while ago) they only sold expensive HEx tickets and
you couldn't even collect prepaid tix.

[Roland Perry]

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it since
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

Sheesh. I think we've all been to Heathrow enough to realize that the
Hex and tube stations for T23 are different even though close to each other.

I know, but maybe people are confused by the similarity of name.

Post by John Levine
For anyone who hasn't been following on, I got my Oyster card
senior-ized at a ticket machine at the tube station. I would be
surprised if the machines at the rail station could do that. The last
time I checked (a while ago) they only sold expensive HEx tickets and
you couldn't even collect prepaid tix.

[Recliner]

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it since
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

Sheesh. I think we've all been to Heathrow enough to realize that the
Hex and tube stations for T23 are different even though close to each other.

Not that close; it's a bit of a hike, assisted by two or three travelators.
The T4 stations are also widely separated, but they're adjacent at T5.

Post by John Levine
For anyone who hasn't been following on, I got my Oyster card
senior-ized at a ticket machine at the tube station. I would be
surprised if the machines at the rail station could do that. The last
time I checked (a while ago) they only sold expensive HEx tickets and
you couldn't even collect prepaid tix.

That's probably changed now, with the Liz providing more than half the
capacity at those stations. When it's fully open, it'll be providing around
70% of the heavy rail passenger capacity at Heathrow, and probably carrying
80-90% of them.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it since
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

Sheesh. I think we've all been to Heathrow enough to realize that the
Hex and tube stations for T23 are different even though close to each other.

Not that close; it's a bit of a hike, assisted by two or three travelators.
The T4 stations are also widely separated, but they're adjacent at T5.

Post by John Levine
For anyone who hasn't been following on, I got my Oyster card
senior-ized at a ticket machine at the tube station. I would be
surprised if the machines at the rail station could do that. The last
time I checked (a while ago) they only sold expensive HEx tickets and
you couldn't even collect prepaid tix.

That's probably changed now, with the Liz providing more than half the
capacity at those stations. When it's fully open, it'll be providing around
70% of the heavy rail passenger capacity at Heathrow, and probably carrying
80-90% of them.

Let's see how that plays out. HEx still has a very big share of the
"confused tourist" market. Who are prepared to pay extra for a simple
customer-orientated trip, rather than a complicated commuter-oriented
one.

And then there's the tube capacity too.

[John Levine]

Post by Roland Perry

[Ticket machines] probably changed now, with the Liz providing more than half the
capacity at those stations. When it's fully open, it'll be providing around
70% of the heavy rail passenger capacity at Heathrow, and probably carrying
80-90% of them.

Let's see how that plays out. HEx still has a very big share of the
"confused tourist" market. Who are prepared to pay extra for a simple
customer-orientated trip, rather than a complicated commuter-oriented
one.

How complicated is it to touch in with your credit card at the airport and
touch out at Paddington? Or once they have through running, stay on the
train and touch out someplace closer to where you want to go?

Doubtless the HEx will still have touts selling those overpriced
tickets but for anyone but the most naive or the narrow set of people
in a hurry whose destination is close to Paddington, the Liz seems
like a better bet.

[Roland Perry]

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry

[Ticket machines] probably changed now, with the Liz providing more than half the
capacity at those stations. When it's fully open, it'll be providing around
70% of the heavy rail passenger capacity at Heathrow, and probably carrying
80-90% of them.

Let's see how that plays out. HEx still has a very big share of the
"confused tourist" market. Who are prepared to pay extra for a simple
customer-orientated trip, rather than a complicated commuter-oriented
one.

How complicated is it to touch in with your credit card at the airport and
touch out at Paddington? Or once they have through running, stay on the
train and touch out someplace closer to where you want to go?

It depends a lot on how good your English is, and how well you
understand the foibles of the UK rail ticketing system, and trust the
almost impossible to audit even by locals back office to charge you the
correct amount.

And if you are family of four, do you have four separate credit cards to
distribute around them (and collect back at the end of the trip)?

Post by John Levine
Doubtless the HEx will still have touts selling those overpriced
tickets but for anyone but the most naive or the narrow set of people

The "Airport Express" train is a global meme, and people trust its
baked-in simplicity. The fare is down in the noise level compared to
your transatlantic fare and a week staying in hotels.

Post by John Levine
in a hurry whose destination is close to Paddington, the Liz seems
like a better bet.

Getting from the airport to somewhere as central as Paddington is a win
for most international travellers, and I'd do it if it was my first trip
to London from another Continent. Don't forget that HEx is, and always
has been, *only* intended as a substitute for a black cab from Heathrow.
And to that extent it's both quicker and cheaper, even if the second leg
is a black cab from Paddington.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry

[Ticket machines] probably changed now, with the Liz providing more than half the
capacity at those stations. When it's fully open, it'll be providing around
70% of the heavy rail passenger capacity at Heathrow, and probably carrying
80-90% of them.

Let's see how that plays out. HEx still has a very big share of the
"confused tourist" market. Who are prepared to pay extra for a simple
customer-orientated trip, rather than a complicated commuter-oriented
one.

How complicated is it to touch in with your credit card at the airport and
touch out at Paddington? Or once they have through running, stay on the
train and touch out someplace closer to where you want to go?

It depends a lot on how good your English is, and how well you
understand the foibles of the UK rail ticketing system, and trust the
almost impossible to audit even by locals back office to charge you the
correct amount.
And if you are family of four, do you have four separate credit cards to
distribute around them (and collect back at the end of the trip)?

They'd probably take a cab. Or buy four Oyster cards, if they intend to be
travelling around London by public transport.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by John Levine
Doubtless the HEx will still have touts selling those overpriced
tickets but for anyone but the most naive or the narrow set of people

The "Airport Express" train is a global meme, and people trust its
baked-in simplicity. The fare is down in the noise level compared to
your transatlantic fare and a week staying in hotels.

Post by John Levine
in a hurry whose destination is close to Paddington, the Liz seems
like a better bet.

Getting from the airport to somewhere as central as Paddington is a win
for most international travellers, and I'd do it if it was my first trip
to London from another Continent. Don't forget that HEx is, and always
has been, *only* intended as a substitute for a black cab from Heathrow.
And to that extent it's both quicker and cheaper, even if the second leg
is a black cab from Paddington.

But it's not nearly as convenient as a cab, particularly if it's a family
with luggage. The Paddington cab rank is a long way from the HEx platforms.
And, as Heathrow T2, the HEx/LE station is also a long, underground walk
away. The Tube is much closer, much cheaper and takes you directly to much
more useful places. Overall travel time will be comparable, and the journey
simpler, to any of those places (eg, Earl's Court, South Ken, Piccadilly,
Russell Square, Kings Cross, Finsbury Park, etc).

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry

[Ticket machines] probably changed now, with the Liz providing more than half the
capacity at those stations. When it's fully open, it'll be
providing around
70% of the heavy rail passenger capacity at Heathrow, and probably carrying
80-90% of them.

Let's see how that plays out. HEx still has a very big share of the
"confused tourist" market. Who are prepared to pay extra for a simple
customer-orientated trip, rather than a complicated commuter-oriented
one.

How complicated is it to touch in with your credit card at the airport and
touch out at Paddington? Or once they have through running, stay on the
train and touch out someplace closer to where you want to go?

It depends a lot on how good your English is, and how well you
understand the foibles of the UK rail ticketing system, and trust the
almost impossible to audit even by locals back office to charge you the
correct amount.
And if you are family of four, do you have four separate credit cards to
distribute around them (and collect back at the end of the trip)?

They'd probably take a cab. Or buy four Oyster cards, if they intend to be
travelling around London by public transport.

If you know there's such a thing as Oyster, and you know how to acquire
one at Heathrow.

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by John Levine
Doubtless the HEx will still have touts selling those overpriced
tickets but for anyone but the most naive or the narrow set of people

The "Airport Express" train is a global meme, and people trust its
baked-in simplicity. The fare is down in the noise level compared to
your transatlantic fare and a week staying in hotels.

Post by John Levine
in a hurry whose destination is close to Paddington, the Liz seems
like a better bet.

Getting from the airport to somewhere as central as Paddington is a win
for most international travellers, and I'd do it if it was my first trip
to London from another Continent. Don't forget that HEx is, and always
has been, *only* intended as a substitute for a black cab from Heathrow.
And to that extent it's both quicker and cheaper, even if the second leg
is a black cab from Paddington.

But it's not nearly as convenient as a cab, particularly if it's a family
with luggage.

It's no less convenient than getting stuck on the M4 in a cab.

Post by Recliner
The Paddington cab rank is a long way from the HEx platforms.
And, as Heathrow T2, the HEx/LE station is also a long, underground walk
away. The Tube is much closer, much cheaper and takes you directly to much
more useful places. Overall travel time will be comparable, and the journey
simpler, to any of those places (eg, Earl's Court, South Ken, Piccadilly,
Russell Square, Kings Cross, Finsbury Park, etc).

Yes, but to use those requires the visitor tangling with the local
commuter rail system, which from bitter experience they are reluctant
to do.

[John Levine]

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
Sheesh. I think we've all been to Heathrow enough to realize that the
Hex and tube stations for T23 are different even though close to each other.

Not that close; it's a bit of a hike, assisted by two or three travelators.
The T4 stations are also widely separated, but they're adjacent at T5.

I'm from the US. Perhaps my distance metrics are different.

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
time I checked (a while ago) they only sold expensive HEx tickets and
you couldn't even collect prepaid tix.

That's probably changed now, with the Liz providing more than half the
capacity at those stations.

The station is still run by HEx, and I would think that for the vast
majority of Liz passengers it would be cheaper and easier to use
contactless or Oyster than to buy a ticket. The only situation I
can think of where you'd want a ticket is if you have a railcard
and haven't added it to an Oyster. Or I suppose if your goat ate
your credit card.

If you look at the National Rail website and see what it says about
HXX, click Ticket Buying and Collection, it says you can collect
pre-purchased tickets from the ticket machine, but if you click on the
station map, it has pictures of the ticket machines and says prepaid
tickets cannot be collected. Who are you going to believe?

[Roland Perry]

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
Sheesh. I think we've all been to Heathrow enough to realize that the
Hex and tube stations for T23 are different even though close to each other.

Not that close; it's a bit of a hike, assisted by two or three travelators.
The T4 stations are also widely separated, but they're adjacent at T5.

I'm from the US. Perhaps my distance metrics are different.

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
time I checked (a while ago) they only sold expensive HEx tickets and
you couldn't even collect prepaid tix.

That's probably changed now, with the Liz providing more than half the
capacity at those stations.

The station is still run by HEx, and I would think that for the vast
majority of Liz passengers it would be cheaper and easier to use
contactless or Oyster than to buy a ticket. The only situation I
can think of where you'd want a ticket is if you have a railcard
and haven't added it to an Oyster. Or I suppose if your goat ate
your credit card.

And your wife's and your two childrens'

Post by John Levine
If you look at the National Rail website and see what it says about
HXX, click Ticket Buying and Collection, it says you can collect
pre-purchased tickets from the ticket machine, but if you click on the
station map, it has pictures of the ticket machines and says prepaid
tickets cannot be collected. Who are you going to believe?

This is exactly why jetlagged people faced with such difficulties say
"sod it" and buy a walk-up HEx ticket. Which does what it says on the
can.

[Clive Page]

Post by Recliner
That's probably changed now, with the Liz providing more than half the
capacity at those stations. When it's fully open, it'll be providing around
70% of the heavy rail passenger capacity at Heathrow, and probably carrying
80-90% of them.

Not unless the service frequency is improved a lot. At present there seems to be just 2 EL trains/hour from Heathrow T5 and a similar number from T4. Of course that means 4 trains/hour from the T2/T3 station. But that's far short of what the Piccadilly Line provides at Heathrow. And a poor comparison with the roughly 12 trains/hour from Gatwick to London, and even 8 trains/hour from Luton Airport Parkway to London.

In my view Heathrow has too many ways of getting by train to London, none of them both fast and frequent.

[Anna Noyd-Dryver]

Post by Clive Page

Post by Recliner
That's probably changed now, with the Liz providing more than half the
capacity at those stations. When it's fully open, it'll be providing around
70% of the heavy rail passenger capacity at Heathrow, and probably carrying
80-90% of them.

Not unless the service frequency is improved a lot. At present there
seems to be just 2 EL trains/hour from Heathrow T5 and a similar number
from T4. Of course that means 4 trains/hour from the T2/T3 station. But
that's far short of what the Piccadilly Line provides at Heathrow. And a
poor comparison with the roughly 12 trains/hour from Gatwick to London,
and even 8 trains/hour from Luton Airport Parkway to London.

It will eventually be 6tph from T2/3, 4tph from T4 and 2tph from T5.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

[Recliner]

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Clive Page

Post by Recliner
That's probably changed now, with the Liz providing more than half the
capacity at those stations. When it's fully open, it'll be providing around
70% of the heavy rail passenger capacity at Heathrow, and probably carrying
80-90% of them.

Not unless the service frequency is improved a lot. At present there
seems to be just 2 EL trains/hour from Heathrow T5 and a similar number
from T4. Of course that means 4 trains/hour from the T2/T3 station. But
that's far short of what the Piccadilly Line provides at Heathrow. And a
poor comparison with the roughly 12 trains/hour from Gatwick to London,
and even 8 trains/hour from Luton Airport Parkway to London.

It will eventually be 6tph from T2/3, 4tph from T4 and 2tph from T5.

And T5 pax can catch HEx free to T23 to catch an EL train from T4.

[Recliner]

Post by Clive Page

Post by Recliner
That's probably changed now, with the Liz providing more than half the
capacity at those stations. When it's fully open, it'll be providing around
70% of the heavy rail passenger capacity at Heathrow, and probably carrying
80-90% of them.

Not unless the service frequency is improved a lot. At present there
seems to be just 2 EL trains/hour from Heathrow T5 and a similar number
from T4. Of course that means 4 trains/hour from the T2/T3 station.

It will increase to 6 when the EL is fully open (+4 HEx). Incidentally, you
can use any train from T4 and T5 to T23, where you can change if required.

Post by Clive Page
But that's far short of what the Piccadilly Line provides at Heathrow.

That provides 12 tph from T23, but on much smaller trains.

Post by Clive Page
And a poor comparison with the roughly 12 trains/hour from Gatwick to
London, and even 8 trains/hour from Luton Airport Parkway to London.

Huh? 12tph Tube and 10 tph heavy rail. And, unlike TL, GX or SN, they
offer direct services to loads of locations.

Post by Clive Page
In my view Heathrow has too many ways of getting by train to London, none
of them both fast and frequent.

Just like Gatwick, then.

[Anna Noyd-Dryver]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card?

How did you get on getting it done at Heathrow?

It worked great.  In the underground station at the ticket machines
I asked one of the staff helping the clueless tourists and he did it
right there using features of the ticket machines that his key
enabled.

Sounds like they were TfL, not HAL, staff.

Why would they be HAL staff?
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card? The
TfL web site  says at any underground or Liz line station but in my
experience, there is often  an implicit, well, except not at
Heathrow of course. The rail station is managed  by HeX who are not
big Oyster enthusiasts. Any suggestions? I'll be arriving at T2.

The T2 station is managed by HEx, but as we've seen in the past (if
Graeme is correct) despite Guildford being "managed by" Network Rail,
the retail ticketing aspect is done by SWT.

The guys I've seen servicing the machines wear SWR branded outfits.
Can't think I've seen Network Rail uniforms except for obvious track
workers/engineers.

Kings Cross is another (and more typical) "Managed by Network Rail"
station, and the ticket officies[1] ticket machines and barrier staff
are TOC branded. Probably the platform staff too.
[1] Does KGX still have a GN ticket office? StP had Thameslink (nee FCC)
and MML in addition to Eurostar and of course the three tube
concourses between them are staffed by TfL with TfL branded TVMs.

Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it since
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
operation of HEx (driving, plus supply and maintenance of trains) is
now contracted to gWr, but I don't know about station staff, nor
whether the arrangements are different at Paddington than at Heathrow.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card?

How did you get on getting it done at Heathrow?

It worked great.  In the underground station at the ticket machines
I asked one of the staff helping the clueless tourists and he did it
right there using features of the ticket machines that his key
enabled.

Sounds like they were TfL, not HAL, staff.

Why would they be HAL staff?
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card? The
TfL web site  says at any underground or Liz line station but in my
experience, there is often  an implicit, well, except not at
Heathrow of course. The rail station is managed  by HeX who are not
big Oyster enthusiasts. Any suggestions? I'll be arriving at T2.

The T2 station is managed by HEx, but as we've seen in the past (if
Graeme is correct) despite Guildford being "managed by" Network Rail,
the retail ticketing aspect is done by SWT.

The guys I've seen servicing the machines wear SWR branded outfits.
Can't think I've seen Network Rail uniforms except for obvious track
workers/engineers.

Kings Cross is another (and more typical) "Managed by Network Rail"
station, and the ticket officies[1] ticket machines and barrier staff
are TOC branded. Probably the platform staff too.
[1] Does KGX still have a GN ticket office? StP had Thameslink (nee FCC)
and MML in addition to Eurostar and of course the three tube
concourses between them are staffed by TfL with TfL branded TVMs.

Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it since
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
operation of HEx (driving, plus supply and maintenance of trains) is
now contracted to gWr, but I don't know about station staff, nor
whether the arrangements are different at Paddington than at Heathrow.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card?

How did you get on getting it done at Heathrow?

It worked great.  In the underground station at the ticket machines
I asked one of the staff helping the clueless tourists and he did it
right there using features of the ticket machines that his key
enabled.

Sounds like they were TfL, not HAL, staff.

Why would they be HAL staff?
Where at Heathrow can I add the railcard to the Oyster card? The
TfL web site  says at any underground or Liz line station but in my
experience, there is often  an implicit, well, except not at
Heathrow of course. The rail station is managed  by HeX who are not
big Oyster enthusiasts. Any suggestions? I'll be arriving at T2.

The T2 station is managed by HEx, but as we've seen in the past (if
Graeme is correct) despite Guildford being "managed by" Network Rail,
the retail ticketing aspect is done by SWT.

The guys I've seen servicing the machines wear SWR branded outfits.
Can't think I've seen Network Rail uniforms except for obvious track
workers/engineers.

Kings Cross is another (and more typical) "Managed by Network Rail"
station, and the ticket officies[1] ticket machines and barrier staff
are TOC branded. Probably the platform staff too.
[1] Does KGX still have a GN ticket office? StP had Thameslink (nee FCC)
and MML in addition to Eurostar and of course the three tube
concourses between them are staffed by TfL with TfL branded TVMs.

Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it since
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it since
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
tend to have one.

[Anna Noyd-Dryver]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it since
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
tend to have one.

If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

[M***@dastardlyhq.com]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it since
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
tend to have one.

If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.

How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?

[Graeme Wall]

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it since
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
tend to have one.

If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.

How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?

Currently, one

[Roland Perry]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it since
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
tend to have one.

If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.

How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?

Currently, one

Are they British residents, or perhaps visiting tourist. The most recent
[adult] tourist I helped round London has a card, but it's deliberately
*not* contactless, because where they live there isn't such strong
regulatory protection when cards are lost/stolen. Buying things was
interesting, requiring a swipe and sign - many retailers are a bit out
of practice with that!

[Tweed]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it since
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
tend to have one.

If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.

How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?

Currently, one

Are they British residents, or perhaps visiting tourist. The most recent
[adult] tourist I helped round London has a card, but it's deliberately
*not* contactless, because where they live there isn't such strong
regulatory protection when cards are lost/stolen. Buying things was
interesting, requiring a swipe and sign - many retailers are a bit out
of practice with that!

Mag stripe swiping is on its way out and I suspect an increasing number of
terminals won’t cope. My latest bank card came without a mag stripe.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it since
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
tend to have one.

If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.

How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?

Currently, one

Are they British residents, or perhaps visiting tourist. The most recent
[adult] tourist I helped round London has a card, but it's deliberately
*not* contactless, because where they live there isn't such strong
regulatory protection when cards are lost/stolen. Buying things was
interesting, requiring a swipe and sign - many retailers are a bit out
of practice with that!

Mag stripe swiping is on its way out and I suspect an increasing number of
terminals won’t cope. My latest bank card came without a mag stripe.

What foreign tourists with magstripe cards need is retailers who still
support it. Whether Brits have magstripe cards is utterly irrelevant to
them.

[Certes]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry
Are they British residents, or perhaps visiting tourist. The most recent
[adult] tourist I helped round London has a card, but it's deliberately
*not* contactless, because where they live there isn't such strong
regulatory protection when cards are lost/stolen. Buying things was
interesting, requiring a swipe and sign - many retailers are a bit out
of practice with that!

Mag stripe swiping is on its way out and I suspect an increasing number of
terminals won’t cope. My latest bank card came without a mag stripe.

What foreign tourists with magstripe cards need is retailers who still
support it. Whether Brits have magstripe cards is utterly irrelevant to
them.

Retailers are far more likely to support magstripe cards if potential
customers have them, and most UK retailers deal mainly with Brits.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Certes

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry
Are they British residents, or perhaps visiting tourist. The most recent
[adult] tourist I helped round London has a card, but it's deliberately
*not* contactless, because where they live there isn't such strong
regulatory protection when cards are lost/stolen. Buying things was
interesting, requiring a swipe and sign - many retailers are a bit out
of practice with that!

Mag stripe swiping is on its way out and I suspect an increasing
number of terminals won’t cope. My latest bank card came without a
mag stripe.

What foreign tourists with magstripe cards need is retailers who
still support it. Whether Brits have magstripe cards is utterly
irrelevant to them.

Retailers are far more likely to support magstripe cards if potential
customers have them, and most UK retailers deal mainly with Brits.

We didn't encounter any serious retailers who couldn't cope, even if not
every staffer could cope.

In this context TfL is apparently not a "serious retailer".

[h***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by Certes

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry
Are they British residents, or perhaps visiting tourist. The most recent
[adult] tourist I helped round London has a card, but it's deliberately
*not* contactless, because where they live there isn't such strong
regulatory protection when cards are lost/stolen. Buying things was
interesting, requiring a swipe and sign - many retailers are a bit out
of practice with that!

Mag stripe swiping is on its way out and I suspect an increasing number of
terminals won’t cope. My latest bank card came without a mag stripe.

What foreign tourists with magstripe cards need is retailers who still
support it. Whether Brits have magstripe cards is utterly irrelevant
to them.

Retailers are far more likely to support magstripe cards if potential
customers have them, and most UK retailers deal mainly with Brits.

Magstripes are on their way out, AIUI.

I imagine that retailers will continue to have equipment that supports
them for the foreseeable future in order to accommodate any stragglers
or people from elsewhere, where cards have as yet not abandoned magstrips.

[John Levine]

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by Certes
Retailers are far more likely to support magstripe cards if potential
customers have them, and most UK retailers deal mainly with Brits.

Magstripes are on their way out, AIUI.

Mastercard says that US issued cards will stop having stripes in 2027
and they'll all be gone by 2029. I expect that in practice it will be
sooner, due to the fraud issue. It is trivial to clone a magstripe,
difficult to impossible to clone a chip or contactless.

[Tweed]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own
the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to
it since
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
tend to have one.

If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.

How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?

Currently, one

Are they British residents, or perhaps visiting tourist. The most recent
[adult] tourist I helped round London has a card, but it's deliberately
*not* contactless, because where they live there isn't such strong
regulatory protection when cards are lost/stolen. Buying things was
interesting, requiring a swipe and sign - many retailers are a bit out
of practice with that!

Mag stripe swiping is on its way out and I suspect an increasing number of
terminals won’t cope. My latest bank card came without a mag stripe.

What foreign tourists with magstripe cards need is retailers who still
support it. Whether Brits have magstripe cards is utterly irrelevant to
them.

You missed my point. My lack of mag stripe is indicative of the way things
are going. This is worldwide if you read up about it. There’s been an
explosion of small retailers taking cards via contactless. Few of these can
cope with mag stripes. The folk from the USA are going to have to get going
with the flow.

[John Levine]

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry
What foreign tourists with magstripe cards need is retailers who still
support it. Whether Brits have magstripe cards is utterly irrelevant to
them.

You missed my point. My lack of mag stripe is indicative of the way things
are going. This is worldwide if you read up about it. There’s been an
explosion of small retailers taking cards via contactless. Few of these can
cope with mag stripes. The folk from the USA are going to have to get going
with the flow.

Other than a few ATM-only cash cards I can't think of any US issued cards that
don't have chips, and most are also contactless. The fraud protection for US
credit cards is pretty good, the issue is more that most Americans don't travel
outside the country so who cares.

FWIW all of the places I usually shop accept contactless, including the seasonal
produce stand. They have a Square (now called Block because, you know) card
reader that conects to o a phone or iPad.

[h***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own
the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to
it since
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
tend to have one.

If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.

How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?

Currently, one

Are they British residents, or perhaps visiting tourist. The most recent
[adult] tourist I helped round London has a card, but it's deliberately
*not* contactless, because where they live there isn't such strong
regulatory protection when cards are lost/stolen. Buying things was
interesting, requiring a swipe and sign - many retailers are a bit out
of practice with that!

Mag stripe swiping is on its way out and I suspect an increasing number of
terminals won’t cope. My latest bank card came without a mag stripe.

What foreign tourists with magstripe cards need is retailers who still
support it. Whether Brits have magstripe cards is utterly irrelevant to
them.

You missed my point. My lack of mag stripe is indicative of the way things
are going. This is worldwide if you read up about it. There’s been an
explosion of small retailers taking cards via contactless. Few of these can
cope with mag stripes. The folk from the USA are going to have to get going
with the flow.

Considering that they were way behind in converting mobile telephony to
GSM, well after Europe got it, instead of sticking with CDMA;
considering that New York City Transit has only in the last two years
introduced a smartcard and allowed passengers to pay with contactless on
the subway, it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
magstrips for a while.

New York City Transit still sells and uses magstrips anyway.

I mean, the Pyongyang Metro used smartcards well before the New York
City Subway.

[Arthur Conan Doyle]

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
magstrips for a while.

Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped cards, they
insisted their customers continue to use signature instead of PIN as the rest of
the world did. Apparently they were concerned that as Americans apparently carry
more cards than the rest of the world, it would be too confusing to have
separate PINs for each card.

--
Usenet: The world's first (and best) social network.

[h***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by Arthur Conan Doyle

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
magstrips for a while.

Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped cards, they
insisted their customers continue to use signature instead of PIN as the rest of
the world did. Apparently they were concerned that as Americans apparently carry
more cards than the rest of the world, it would be too confusing to have
separate PINs for each card.
--
Usenet: The world's first (and best) social network.

FWIW, Japan is still very much a cash-based society. Indeed, they still
use faxes.

[Recliner]

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by Arthur Conan Doyle

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
magstrips for a while.

Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped cards, they
insisted their customers continue to use signature instead of PIN as the rest of
the world did. Apparently they were concerned that as Americans apparently carry
more cards than the rest of the world, it would be too confusing to have
separate PINs for each card.
--
Usenet: The world's first (and best) social network.

FWIW, Japan is still very much a cash-based society. Indeed, they still
use faxes.

The latter is probably because of kanji. It's a difficult language to type,
and many older people couldn't, so Japan preferred fax to telex when these
comms technologies arrived. It also preferred high res dot matrix printers,
rather than daisy wheel or golfball. It's why high res ink jet and laser
printers were so cheap for us. Similarly, high res monitors were popular in
Japan when we put up with low res monitors here.

I don't know, but would guess that texting and messaging apps are less
popular in Japan for the same reason; it would be easier for many to hand
write a message and fax it.

[h***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by Recliner

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by Arthur Conan Doyle

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
magstrips for a while.

Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped cards, they
insisted their customers continue to use signature instead of PIN as the rest of
the world did. Apparently they were concerned that as Americans apparently carry
more cards than the rest of the world, it would be too confusing to have
separate PINs for each card.
--
Usenet: The world's first (and best) social network.

FWIW, Japan is still very much a cash-based society. Indeed, they still
use faxes.

The latter is probably because of kanji. It's a difficult language to type,
and many older people couldn't, so Japan preferred fax to telex when these
comms technologies arrived. It also preferred high res dot matrix printers,
rather than daisy wheel or golfball. It's why high res ink jet and laser
printers were so cheap for us. Similarly, high res monitors were popular in
Japan when we put up with low res monitors here.
I don't know, but would guess that texting and messaging apps are less
popular in Japan for the same reason; it would be easier for many to hand
write a message and fax it.

A basic word processor program is more than adept at Kanji these days.
There are hiragana and katakana keyboard settings, the former of which
will easily create a kanji symbol.

iPhones also have a kana keyboard for text messaging. It's quite easy,
once you get used to it.

[h***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by Recliner

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by Arthur Conan Doyle

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
magstrips for a while.

Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped cards, they
insisted their customers continue to use signature instead of PIN as the rest of
the world did. Apparently they were concerned that as Americans apparently carry
more cards than the rest of the world, it would be too confusing to have
separate PINs for each card.
--
Usenet: The world's first (and best) social network.

FWIW, Japan is still very much a cash-based society. Indeed, they still
use faxes.

The latter is probably because of kanji. It's a difficult language to type,
and many older people couldn't, so Japan preferred fax to telex when these
comms technologies arrived. It also preferred high res dot matrix printers,
rather than daisy wheel or golfball. It's why high res ink jet and laser
printers were so cheap for us. Similarly, high res monitors were popular in
Japan when we put up with low res monitors here.
I don't know, but would guess that texting and messaging apps are less
popular in Japan for the same reason; it would be easier for many to hand
write a message and fax it.

A basic word processor program is more than adept at Kanji these days.
There are hiragana and katakana keyboard settings, the former of which
will easily create a kanji symbol.
iPhones also have a kana keyboard for text messaging. It's quite easy,
once you get used to it.

There is also a Romaji keyboard setting, which will also convert your
text into either Kanji, Hiragana or Katakana, though that seems to be
discouraged.

[Anna Noyd-Dryver]

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by Recliner

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by Arthur Conan Doyle

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
magstrips for a while.

Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped cards, they
insisted their customers continue to use signature instead of PIN as the rest of
the world did. Apparently they were concerned that as Americans apparently carry
more cards than the rest of the world, it would be too confusing to have
separate PINs for each card.
--
Usenet: The world's first (and best) social network.

FWIW, Japan is still very much a cash-based society. Indeed, they still
use faxes.

The latter is probably because of kanji. It's a difficult language to type,
and many older people couldn't, so Japan preferred fax to telex when these
comms technologies arrived. It also preferred high res dot matrix printers,
rather than daisy wheel or golfball. It's why high res ink jet and laser
printers were so cheap for us. Similarly, high res monitors were popular in
Japan when we put up with low res monitors here.
I don't know, but would guess that texting and messaging apps are less
popular in Japan for the same reason; it would be easier for many to hand
write a message and fax it.

A basic word processor program is more than adept at Kanji these days.
There are hiragana and katakana keyboard settings, the former of which
will easily create a kanji symbol.
iPhones also have a kana keyboard for text messaging. It's quite easy,
once you get used to it.

Also, thankfully for those of us with an addiction to Japanese railways and
tramways, Google translate can do Japanese (and Chinese, Taiwanese, Korean
etc). Though you often need an open mind to interpret the results, the
language used can be quite 'flowery'!


Anna Noyd-Dryver

[Roland Perry]

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by Arthur Conan Doyle

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
magstrips for a while.

Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped
cards, they insisted their customers continue to use signature
instead of PIN as the rest of the world did. Apparently they were
concerned that as Americans apparently carry more cards than the rest
of the world, it would be too confusing to have separate PINs for each card.

FWIW, Japan is still very much a cash-based society. Indeed, they still
use faxes.

Germany has a reputation for not liking *credit* cards, and the
Netherlands for having proprietary *debit* cards. I never cease to be
amazed the way shops in Switzerland will take the equivalent of a £100
note for cup of coffee without blinking. And yet so many machines are
coin-only.

[John Levine]

Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped cards, they
insisted their customers continue to use signature instead of PIN as the rest of
the world did. Apparently they were concerned that as Americans apparently carry
more cards than the rest of the world, it would be too confusing to have
separate PINs for each card.

Nope. We have had PINs for our ATM and debit cards as long as you have.

People who should know have told me that the networks for US credit
cards were installed a long time ago and not upgraded much. Chip+PIN
takes two round trips while Chip+Signature takes one and they were
(are) worried that it's too slow.

These days with contactless it's chip+neither. It's been quite a while since
I've been asked to provide either a PIN or a signature at the till other than
at the pharmacy where I think it's a regulatory thing, they want a record of
who's buying the drugs.

[h***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by John Levine

Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped cards, they
insisted their customers continue to use signature instead of PIN as the rest of
the world did. Apparently they were concerned that as Americans apparently carry
more cards than the rest of the world, it would be too confusing to have
separate PINs for each card.

Nope. We have had PINs for our ATM and debit cards as long as you have.
People who should know have told me that the networks for US credit
cards were installed a long time ago and not upgraded much. Chip+PIN
takes two round trips while Chip+Signature takes one and they were
(are) worried that it's too slow.
These days with contactless it's chip+neither. It's been quite a while since
I've been asked to provide either a PIN or a signature at the till other than
at the pharmacy where I think it's a regulatory thing, they want a record of
who's buying the drugs.

Something similar here in UK, IIRC.

[Roland Perry]

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by John Levine
These days with contactless it's chip+neither. It's been quite a
while since I've been asked to provide either a PIN or a signature at
the till other than at the pharmacy where I think it's a regulatory
thing, they want a record of who's buying the drugs.

Something similar here in UK, IIRC.

Not true, contactless transactions at retailers require an almost
tedious number of interspersed PIN-supplied purchases to refresh their
risk assessment that it's still *you* who has the card.

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by John Levine
These days with contactless it's chip+neither. It's been quite a
while since I've been asked to provide either a PIN or a signature at
the till other than at the pharmacy where I think it's a regulatory
thing, they want a record of who's buying the drugs.

Something similar here in UK, IIRC.

Not true, contactless transactions at retailers require an almost
tedious number of interspersed PIN-supplied purchases to refresh their
risk assessment that it's still *you* who has the card.

A till operator at Sainsbury’s speculated to me that the rate of
PIN-required transactions has gone up since the £100 limit came in - she
thought it was now about 1 in 5 rather the previous 1 in 10 or 1 in 20.

Sam

[Roland Perry]

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by John Levine
These days with contactless it's chip+neither. It's been quite a
while since I've been asked to provide either a PIN or a signature at
the till other than at the pharmacy where I think it's a regulatory
thing, they want a record of who's buying the drugs.

Something similar here in UK, IIRC.

Not true, contactless transactions at retailers require an almost
tedious number of interspersed PIN-supplied purchases to refresh their
risk assessment that it's still *you* who has the card.

A till operator at Sainsbury’s speculated to me that the rate of
PIN-required transactions has gone up since the £100 limit came in - she
thought it was now about 1 in 5 rather the previous 1 in 10 or 1 in 20.

Is that 1:10 customers, or one in ten transactions by any specific
customer. If the latter, how did she do the research?

In any event, as the £100 limit co-incides with Covid and society being
encouraged to go contactless, the great number of PIN-required
transactions observed at Sainsburys is easily explained by customers who
previously mainly used their card contactless mainly at Sainsburys (and
cash, or C&P elsewhere) but are now using their card contactless all
over the place. Therefore notching up their number of transactions
significantly.

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by John Levine
These days with contactless it's chip+neither. It's been quite a
while since I've been asked to provide either a PIN or a signature at
the till other than at the pharmacy where I think it's a regulatory
thing, they want a record of who's buying the drugs.

Something similar here in UK, IIRC.

Not true, contactless transactions at retailers require an almost
tedious number of interspersed PIN-supplied purchases to refresh their
risk assessment that it's still *you* who has the card.

A till operator at Sainsbury’s speculated to me that the rate of
PIN-required transactions has gone up since the £100 limit came in - she
thought it was now about 1 in 5 rather the previous 1 in 10 or 1 in 20.

Is that 1:10 customers, or one in ten transactions by any specific
customer. If the latter, how did she do the research?

I have no idea - it was a casual comment while I was paying (by chip and
pin after the contactless was declined) and it would have been rude to
question her and to delay the following customer.

Post by Roland Perry
In any event, as the £100 limit co-incides with Covid and society being
encouraged to go contactless, the great number of PIN-required
transactions observed at Sainsburys is easily explained by customers who
previously mainly used their card contactless mainly at Sainsburys (and
cash, or C&P elsewhere) but are now using their card contactless all
over the place. Therefore notching up their number of transactions
significantly.

Indeed, but I don’t know anything else.

Sam

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by John Levine
These days with contactless it's chip+neither. It's been quite a
while since I've been asked to provide either a PIN or a signature at
the till other than at the pharmacy where I think it's a regulatory
thing, they want a record of who's buying the drugs.

Something similar here in UK, IIRC.

Not true, contactless transactions at retailers require an almost
tedious number of interspersed PIN-supplied purchases to refresh their
risk assessment that it's still *you* who has the card.

A till operator at Sainsbury’s speculated to me that the rate of
PIN-required transactions has gone up since the £100 limit came in - she
thought it was now about 1 in 5 rather the previous 1 in 10 or 1 in 20.

Not noticed any increase in rate personally, though as it is supposed to
be random that may change.

[Sam Wilson]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by John Levine
These days with contactless it's chip+neither. It's been quite a
while since I've been asked to provide either a PIN or a signature at
the till other than at the pharmacy where I think it's a regulatory
thing, they want a record of who's buying the drugs.

Something similar here in UK, IIRC.

Not true, contactless transactions at retailers require an almost
tedious number of interspersed PIN-supplied purchases to refresh their
risk assessment that it's still *you* who has the card.

A till operator at Sainsbury’s speculated to me that the rate of
PIN-required transactions has gone up since the £100 limit came in - she
thought it was now about 1 in 5 rather the previous 1 in 10 or 1 in 20.

Not noticed any increase in rate personally, though as it is supposed to
be random that may change.

I’ve had, I think, three quite recently, one of which occasioned the
comment from the till operator. I hadn’t noticed an uptick since the £100
limit came in, but of course I use contactless much more frequently now.

Sam

[Anna Noyd-Dryver]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by John Levine
These days with contactless it's chip+neither. It's been quite a
while since I've been asked to provide either a PIN or a signature at
the till other than at the pharmacy where I think it's a regulatory
thing, they want a record of who's buying the drugs.

Something similar here in UK, IIRC.

Not true, contactless transactions at retailers require an almost
tedious number of interspersed PIN-supplied purchases to refresh their
risk assessment that it's still *you* who has the card.

You don't get that problem with Apple/Google Pay ;)


Anna Noyd-Dryver

[Roland Perry]

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by John Levine
These days with contactless it's chip+neither. It's been quite a
while since I've been asked to provide either a PIN or a signature at
the till other than at the pharmacy where I think it's a regulatory
thing, they want a record of who's buying the drugs.

Something similar here in UK, IIRC.

Not true, contactless transactions at retailers require an almost
tedious number of interspersed PIN-supplied purchases to refresh their
risk assessment that it's still *you* who has the card.

You don't get that problem with Apple/Google Pay ;)

There's all kinds of reasons for that, to do with the demographics of
the users, who carries the risk of fraud, and so on. And of course you
sign into the phone first which adds a layer of security, and maybe
notice sooner if it's lost or stolen.

Do they still have 'bracelets' that work for those platforms, and are
they autonomous (ie don't need the phone itself within earshot). I might
try one such thing, despite having a false-start with an Android
wristwatch that I never could get working. That was the phone as well.

I've had a Sony smartwatch for years (and wear it most days - the
battery lasts about a week, which helps a lot), but that needs pairing
with a nearby Android phone, and almost certainly doesn't have its own
NFC capability.

[Anna Noyd-Dryver]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by John Levine
These days with contactless it's chip+neither. It's been quite a
while since I've been asked to provide either a PIN or a signature at
the till other than at the pharmacy where I think it's a regulatory
thing, they want a record of who's buying the drugs.

Something similar here in UK, IIRC.

Not true, contactless transactions at retailers require an almost
tedious number of interspersed PIN-supplied purchases to refresh their
risk assessment that it's still *you* who has the card.

You don't get that problem with Apple/Google Pay ;)

There's all kinds of reasons for that, to do with the demographics of
the users, who carries the risk of fraud, and so on. And of course you
sign into the phone first which adds a layer of security, and maybe
notice sooner if it's lost or stolen.

Nothing to do with demographics. 100% related to the fact that your phone
confirms your ID (usually biometric). Therefore never a need to enter your
pin at the terminal to confirm your contactless payment.

Post by Roland Perry
Do they still have 'bracelets' that work for those platforms, and are
they autonomous (ie don't need the phone itself within earshot). I might
try one such thing, despite having a false-start with an Android
wristwatch that I never could get working. That was the phone as well.

Apple Watch allows you to pay using the watch, yes.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

[Roland Perry]

Post by John Levine

Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped cards, they
insisted their customers continue to use signature instead of PIN as the rest of
the world did. Apparently they were concerned that as Americans apparently carry
more cards than the rest of the world, it would be too confusing to have
separate PINs for each card.

Nope. We have had PINs for our ATM and debit cards as long as you have.
People who should know have told me that the networks for US credit
cards were installed a long time ago and not upgraded much. Chip+PIN
takes two round trips while Chip+Signature takes one and they were
(are) worried that it's too slow.
These days with contactless it's chip+neither. It's been quite a while since
I've been asked to provide either a PIN or a signature at the till other than
at the pharmacy where I think it's a regulatory thing, they want a record of
who's buying the drugs.

If your card is lost or stolen, does the bank have a no-quibble refund
policy for subsequent contactless transactions?

[Roland Perry]

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Tweed

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and
the private station, until recently they ran all
services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running
it since 3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing.
Talking of which, are there any Oyster vending machines at
Heathrow for first-time arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
tend to have one.

If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.

How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?

Currently, one

Are they British residents, or perhaps visiting tourist. The most recent
[adult] tourist I helped round London has a card, but it's deliberately
*not* contactless, because where they live there isn't such strong
regulatory protection when cards are lost/stolen. Buying things was
interesting, requiring a swipe and sign - many retailers are a bit out
of practice with that!

Mag stripe swiping is on its way out and I suspect an increasing number of
terminals won’t cope. My latest bank card came without a mag stripe.

What foreign tourists with magstripe cards need is retailers who still
support it. Whether Brits have magstripe cards is utterly irrelevant to
them.

You missed my point. My lack of mag stripe is indicative of the way things
are going. This is worldwide if you read up about it. There’s been an
explosion of small retailers taking cards via contactless. Few of these can
cope with mag stripes. The folk from the USA are going to have to get going
with the flow.

They won't on their main account, because of the domestic risks. So
maybe another use-case for prepaid contactless debit cards.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it since
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
tend to have one.

If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.

 How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?

Currently, one

Are they British residents, or perhaps visiting tourist.

My grand-daughter.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services
to it since
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
tend to have one.

If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.

 How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?

Currently, one

Are they British residents, or perhaps visiting tourist.

My grand-daughter.

Presumably the former then (but we shouldn't make assumptions).

[M***@dastardlyhq.com]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 17:11:33 +0100

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the

private

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it

since

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
tend to have one.

If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.

How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?

Currently, one

Really? Which bank issued an 11 year old with a debit card?

[Tweed]

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 17:11:33 +0100

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the

private

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it

since

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
tend to have one.

If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.

How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?

Currently, one

Really? Which bank issued an 11 year old with a debit card?

NatWest at least

https://www.natwest.com/current-accounts/adapt_account.html

This account is available to 11-17 year olds who are UK residents.

Buy things in shops or online, and withdraw cash with your contactless
debit card.

[M***@dastardlyhq.com]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 08:49:23 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Tweed

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 17:11:33 +0100

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the

private

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it

since

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
tend to have one.

If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.

How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?

Currently, one

Really? Which bank issued an 11 year old with a debit card?

NatWest at least
https://www.natwest.com/current-accounts/adapt_account.html
This account is available to 11-17 year olds who are UK residents.
Buy things in shops or online, and withdraw cash with your contactless
debit card.

Beggars belief. Over 16 sure, but pre-teens? What the hell are they thinking?

[Sam Wilson]

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 08:49:23 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Tweed

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 17:11:33 +0100

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the

private

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it

since

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
tend to have one.

If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.

How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?

Currently, one

Really? Which bank issued an 11 year old with a debit card?

NatWest at least
https://www.natwest.com/current-accounts/adapt_account.html
This account is available to 11-17 year olds who are UK residents.
Buy things in shops or online, and withdraw cash with your contactless
debit card.

Beggars belief. Over 16 sure, but pre-teens? What the hell are they thinking?

They’re probably thinking that the parents will control how much money goes
into the account and keep an eye on what goes out. So old fashioned.

Sam

[Tweed]

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 08:49:23 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Tweed

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 17:11:33 +0100

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the

private

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it

since

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
tend to have one.

If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.

How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?

Currently, one

Really? Which bank issued an 11 year old with a debit card?

NatWest at least
https://www.natwest.com/current-accounts/adapt_account.html
This account is available to 11-17 year olds who are UK residents.
Buy things in shops or online, and withdraw cash with your contactless
debit card.

Beggars belief. Over 16 sure, but pre-teens? What the hell are they thinking?

They’re probably thinking that the parents will control how much money goes
into the account and keep an eye on what goes out. So old fashioned.
Sam

I don’t see what damage can be done. Such accounts won’t be allowed to go
into the red. With contactless travel the worst that can happen is payment
to TfL will bounce at the end of the day and the card will be rejected for
further travel. All other debit card transactions (well I suppose someone
will find an exception) are validated in real time for such cards.

I got my children bank accounts at the earliest possible opportunity, I
think it was 13 at the time. They got a card that worked in cash machines.
No debit card, as real time validation wasn’t really a thing back then.
They also got mobile phones at a young age and unfettered Internet access.
We’ve never found the need for parental Internet controls and never had a
problem. Both have grown up to have decent careers and stable
relationships. The moral panic of the media is overdone, particularly by
those with a vested interest. Best to teach children how to navigate the
pitfalls of life rather than to be controlling. Access to bank accounts is
part of that.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Tweed

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Beggars belief. Over 16 sure, but pre-teens? What the hell are they thinking?

They’re probably thinking that the parents will control how much money goes
into the account and keep an eye on what goes out. So old fashioned.

I don’t see what damage can be done. Such accounts won’t be allowed to go
into the red. With contactless travel the worst that can happen is payment
to TfL will bounce at the end of the day and the card will be rejected for
further travel. All other debit card transactions (well I suppose someone
will find an exception) are validated in real time for such cards.
I got my children bank accounts at the earliest possible opportunity, I
think it was 13 at the time. They got a card that worked in cash machines.
No debit card, as real time validation wasn’t really a thing back then.
They also got mobile phones at a young age and unfettered Internet access.
We’ve never found the need for parental Internet controls and never had a
problem. Both have grown up to have decent careers and stable
relationships. The moral panic of the media is overdone, particularly by
those with a vested interest. Best to teach children how to navigate the
pitfalls of life rather than to be controlling. Access to bank accounts is
part of that.

You are clearly a well educated and caring parent. Sadly not all
children benefit from that.

[M***@dastardlyhq.com]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:26:17 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Tweed
They also got mobile phones at a young age and unfettered Internet access.

Did you win the Responsible Parent of the Year award too?

Post by Tweed
We’ve never found the need for parental Internet controls and never had a
problem. Both have grown up to have decent careers and stable

If they're that old then when they were young porn and peados weren't such
a problem online for children.

Post by Tweed
those with a vested interest. Best to teach children how to navigate the
pitfalls of life rather than to be controlling. Access to bank accounts is

There's a time and place.

[M***@dastardlyhq.com]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:05:26 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Beggars belief. Over 16 sure, but pre-teens? What the hell are they thinking?

They’re probably thinking that the parents will control how much money goes
into the account and keep an eye on what goes out. So old fashioned.

Yeah, right, just like they keep an eye on their kids phone usage. Which
they'll probably have downloaded the natwest app too.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 08:49:23 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Tweed

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 17:11:33 +0100

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the

private

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it

since

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
tend to have one.

If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.

How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?

Currently, one

Really? Which bank issued an 11 year old with a debit card?

NatWest at least
https://www.natwest.com/current-accounts/adapt_account.html
This account is available to 11-17 year olds who are UK residents.
Buy things in shops or online, and withdraw cash with your contactless
debit card.

Beggars belief. Over 16 sure, but pre-teens? What the hell are they thinking?

About joining the real world.

[M***@dastardlyhq.com]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 10:24:01 +0100

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Tweed
This account is available to 11-17 year olds who are UK residents.
Buy things in shops or online, and withdraw cash with your contactless
debit card.

Beggars belief. Over 16 sure, but pre-teens? What the hell are they thinking?

About joining the real world.

Oh right. Presumably you think 11 years should be able to view porn too then?

[Graeme Wall]

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 10:24:01 +0100

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Tweed
This account is available to 11-17 year olds who are UK residents.
Buy things in shops or online, and withdraw cash with your contactless
debit card.

Beggars belief. Over 16 sure, but pre-teens? What the hell are they thinking?

About joining the real world.

Oh right. Presumably you think 11 years should be able to view porn too then?

Not come across a debit card you can view porn, or anything else on. In
case you've never seen one, it is a rectangular bit of plastic with an
embedded processor chip. No audio or video facilities.

[M***@dastardlyhq.com]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 18:43:55 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 10:24:01 +0100

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Tweed
This account is available to 11-17 year olds who are UK residents.
Buy things in shops or online, and withdraw cash with your contactless
debit card.

Beggars belief. Over 16 sure, but pre-teens? What the hell are they

thinking?

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Graeme Wall
About joining the real world.

Oh right. Presumably you think 11 years should be able to view porn too then?

Not come across a debit card you can view porn, or anything else on. In
case you've never seen one, it is a rectangular bit of plastic with an
embedded processor chip. No audio or video facilities.

Being a smartarse doesn't somehow negate your moronic comment about "joining
the real world". Which part of the real world? 11 year olds can be pretty
irresponsible and allowing them to splash cash with a card is not clever.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 18:43:55 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 10:24:01 +0100

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Tweed
This account is available to 11-17 year olds who are UK residents.
Buy things in shops or online, and withdraw cash with your contactless
debit card.

Beggars belief. Over 16 sure, but pre-teens? What the hell are they

thinking?

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Graeme Wall
About joining the real world.

Oh right. Presumably you think 11 years should be able to view porn too then?

Not come across a debit card you can view porn, or anything else on. In
case you've never seen one, it is a rectangular bit of plastic with an
embedded processor chip. No audio or video facilities.

Being a smartarse doesn't somehow negate your moronic comment about "joining
the real world". Which part of the real world? 11 year olds can be pretty
irresponsible and allowing them to splash cash with a card is not clever.

Why not? Its safer than letting them use cash which they can use to buy
porn or drugs without you knowing anything about it.

[M***@dastardlyhq.com]

On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 08:22:13 +0100

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 18:43:55 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 10:24:01 +0100

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Tweed
This account is available to 11-17 year olds who are UK residents.
Buy things in shops or online, and withdraw cash with your contactless
debit card.

Beggars belief. Over 16 sure, but pre-teens? What the hell are they

thinking?

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Graeme Wall
About joining the real world.

Oh right. Presumably you think 11 years should be able to view porn too

then?

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Not come across a debit card you can view porn, or anything else on. In
case you've never seen one, it is a rectangular bit of plastic with an
embedded processor chip. No audio or video facilities.

Being a smartarse doesn't somehow negate your moronic comment about "joining
the real world". Which part of the real world? 11 year olds can be pretty
irresponsible and allowing them to splash cash with a card is not clever.

Why not? Its safer than letting them use cash which they can use to buy
porn or drugs without you knowing anything about it.

If you're kids are off to find the local drug dealer then you're an
irresponsible parent so all bets are off anyway. As for porn - good luck
finding any thats not online now particulalrly for pocket money prices.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 08:22:13 +0100

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 18:43:55 +0100

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 10:24:01 +0100

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Tweed
This account is available to 11-17 year olds who are UK residents.
Buy things in shops or online, and withdraw cash with your contactless
debit card.

Beggars belief. Over 16 sure, but pre-teens? What the hell are they

thinking?

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Graeme Wall
About joining the real world.

Oh right. Presumably you think 11 years should be able to view porn too

then?

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
Not come across a debit card you can view porn, or anything else on. In
case you've never seen one, it is a rectangular bit of plastic with an
embedded processor chip. No audio or video facilities.

Being a smartarse doesn't somehow negate your moronic comment about "joining
the real world". Which part of the real world? 11 year olds can be pretty
irresponsible and allowing them to splash cash with a card is not clever.

Why not? Its safer than letting them use cash which they can use to buy
porn or drugs without you knowing anything about it.

If you're kids are off to find the local drug dealer then you're an
irresponsible parent so all bets are off anyway. As for porn - good luck
finding any thats not online now particulalrly for pocket money prices.

I recommend the advice of Denis Healy

[M***@dastardlyhq.com]

On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 08:55:07 +0100

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
If you're kids are off to find the local drug dealer then you're an
irresponsible parent so all bets are off anyway. As for porn - good luck
finding any thats not online now particulalrly for pocket money prices.

I recommend the advice of Denis Healy

Well thats nice, whatever it is. But I don't give enough of a toss to
google it.

[Certes]

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 08:55:07 +0100

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
If you're kids are off to find the local drug dealer then you're an
irresponsible parent so all bets are off anyway. As for porn - good luck
finding any thats not online now particulalrly for pocket money prices.

I recommend the advice of Denis Healy

Well thats nice, whatever it is. But I don't give enough of a toss to
google it.

Was Graeme just savaged by a dead sheep?

[Graeme Wall]

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 17:11:33 +0100

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com
On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the

private

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it

since

Post by M***@dastardlyhq.com

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
tend to have one.

If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.

How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?

Currently, one

Really? Which bank issued an 11 year old with a debit card?

Don't know but I gather several do.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the private
station, until recently they ran all services to it;

Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it since
3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].

We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.

It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
tend to have one.

If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.

Do you have to lift them over the gatelines, or will the staff beep them
through. How can the staff verify their age?

Are they free over the whole contactless area, for example Gatwick to
Luton Airport Parkway.

[John Levine]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.

Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
arrivals to get one?

There are ticket machines at the LU stations. There were two busy staff
members helping people use them when one of them put my railcard on
the Oyster I already have.