Discussion:
Near miss on Met
(too old to reply)
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-06-24 10:43:25 UTC
Permalink
Don't know if this has already been posted:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commuter
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html

How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed
from that section of line now?
Recliner
2020-06-24 10:55:36 UTC
Permalink
<***@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:

No, I don't think ut has been posted.
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commuter
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed
from that section of line now?
It looks like it was perhaps a track/points fault that took the Chiltern
train across a crossover towards the Chesham line. The driver duly stopped.

<https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2020/06/23-near-collision-at-chalfont-.html>

THE RAIB is investigating a reported near-collision between a London
Underground train and a National Rail service on Sunday night.

An image from the scene shows a Chiltern Railways unit and a train of
Metropolitan Line S-Stock at a stand just a few metres apart at Chalfont &
Latimer, the junction for the Chesham branch.

Reports have claimed that the Chiltern train took the wrong route at a
crossover, taking it towards the Metropolitan unit, and other unconfirmed
reports say that the points and track were damaged.

Transport for London said: ‘We apologise to customers disrupted by the
closure of the Metropolitan line between Chalfont & Latimer and Chesham.
This is the result of an incident involving a Chiltern Railways train near
Chalfont & Latimer station. We are working with Chiltern Railways to
determine exactly what happened, and our engineers will repair the railway
to return it to service as quickly as possible.’

The Transport for London website was still reporting no service on the
Chesham branch on Tuesday afternoon, and attributing the suspension to a
‘track fault’.

Chiltern Railways said: ‘We have an excellent safety record and are working
with the Rail Accident Investigation Branch to understand the causes of
this incident.’
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-06-24 11:23:25 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:55:36 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
No, I don't think ut has been posted.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commute
r
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of
the
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed
from that section of line now?
It looks like it was perhaps a track/points fault that took the Chiltern
train across a crossover towards the Chesham line. The driver duly stopped.
<https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2020/06/23-near-collision-at-chalfont-.html>
THE RAIB is investigating a reported near-collision between a London
Underground train and a National Rail service on Sunday night.
An image from the scene shows a Chiltern Railways unit and a train of
Metropolitan Line S-Stock at a stand just a few metres apart at Chalfont &
Latimer, the junction for the Chesham branch.
Reports have claimed that the Chiltern train took the wrong route at a
crossover, taking it towards the Metropolitan unit, and other unconfirmed
reports say that the points and track were damaged.
By the train or before it went across? It couldn't have been going very fast
or would have derailed.
Post by Recliner
The Transport for London website was still reporting no service on the
Chesham branch on Tuesday afternoon, and attributing the suspension to a
‘track fault’.
Probably the most serious type of fault other than the rail collapsing. This
could have been seriously nasty.
Recliner
2020-06-24 11:42:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:55:36 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
No, I don't think ut has been posted.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commute
r
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of
the
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed
from that section of line now?
It looks like it was perhaps a track/points fault that took the Chiltern
train across a crossover towards the Chesham line. The driver duly stopped.
<https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2020/06/23-near-collision-at-chalfont-.html>
THE RAIB is investigating a reported near-collision between a London
Underground train and a National Rail service on Sunday night.
An image from the scene shows a Chiltern Railways unit and a train of
Metropolitan Line S-Stock at a stand just a few metres apart at Chalfont &
Latimer, the junction for the Chesham branch.
Reports have claimed that the Chiltern train took the wrong route at a
crossover, taking it towards the Metropolitan unit, and other unconfirmed
reports say that the points and track were damaged.
By the train or before it went across?
A Chiltern train shouldn't have crossed over, so it was presumably a points
fault that took it on to the wrong line.
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
It couldn't have been going very fast or would have derailed.
The train would have just stopped at the station, so it would have been
moving slowly.

I think this is the crossover:
<https://goo.gl/maps/wLHa4MiJ6j664dEv9>
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
The Transport for London website was still reporting no service on the
Chesham branch on Tuesday afternoon, and attributing the suspension to a
‘track fault’.
Probably the most serious type of fault other than the rail collapsing. This
could have been seriously nasty.
Yes, if it had happened to a train that hadn't just stopped, there would
have been a head-on collision.
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-06-24 14:34:40 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 11:42:19 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
<https://goo.gl/maps/wLHa4MiJ6j664dEv9>
Looks like it. Seems to allow trains on the main line to reach the Chesham
branch. I suspect they'll be going back to a chesham shuttle service for a
while.
Recliner
2020-06-24 14:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 11:42:19 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
<https://goo.gl/maps/wLHa4MiJ6j664dEv9>
Looks like it. Seems to allow trains on the main line to reach the Chesham
branch. I suspect they'll be going back to a chesham shuttle service for a
while.
They can't, at least not with S stock, as it's too long for the bay
platform. They'd have to borrow a half-length train from another line.

In any case, normal Chesham services now seem to have been restored.
Clive D.W. Feather
2020-06-24 15:54:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commuter
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen?
Possibilities based on what I can see:

(1) Met train is heading for Chesham, the points are therefore set to
cross over, and the Chiltern train SPADed.

(2) Previous train through the area was a Met train to Chesham, the
points haven't been moved since, and the Chiltern train SPADed.

(3) Either of (1) or (2) but a wrong-side signalling failure meant the
Chiltern train got a green signal.

(4) Either of (1) or (2) but the signaller authorized the Chiltern
driver to pass the signal at danger.

(5) Repeat of Farnley Junction: a wiring fault meant the normal and
reverse positions of a crossover were exchanged in the signalling.

(6) Repeat of Barnham: an earth fault meant the points moved as the
train approached them.

I'm sure there are more possibilities. We'll have to wait and see what
the RAIB have to say.
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the
line he was on?
The crossover is close to the station, IIRC, so he would have gone into
emergency braking as soon as he either saw the points facing the wrong
way or when he realized he was on the crossover. Don't forget trains
take some distance to stop.
--
Clive D.W. Feather
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-06-24 16:12:58 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:54:45 +0100
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commut
er
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen?
(1) Met train is heading for Chesham, the points are therefore set to
cross over, and the Chiltern train SPADed.
(2) Previous train through the area was a Met train to Chesham, the
points haven't been moved since, and the Chiltern train SPADed.
Does that part of the Met still have tripcocks and if so surely they would
have prevented these 2 possibilities?
Recliner
2020-06-24 16:42:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:54:45 +0100
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commut
er
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen?
(1) Met train is heading for Chesham, the points are therefore set to
cross over, and the Chiltern train SPADed.
(2) Previous train through the area was a Met train to Chesham, the
points haven't been moved since, and the Chiltern train SPADed.
Does that part of the Met still have tripcocks and if so surely they would
have prevented these 2 possibilities?
Yes, it still has trip cocks. The new signalling hasn't got that far. So,
unlikely to be a SPaD.
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-06-25 08:45:49 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:42:37 -0000 (UTC)
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:54:45 +0100
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commut
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
er
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen?
(1) Met train is heading for Chesham, the points are therefore set to
cross over, and the Chiltern train SPADed.
(2) Previous train through the area was a Met train to Chesham, the
points haven't been moved since, and the Chiltern train SPADed.
Does that part of the Met still have tripcocks and if so surely they would
have prevented these 2 possibilities?
Yes, it still has trip cocks. The new signalling hasn't got that far. So,
unlikely to be a SPaD.
Presumably Chiltern won't be paying for the met line train control system
to be fitted to their DMUs so I guess TfL will have to fork out for that
when the time comes. I wonder if its worth it given the trains on that
section arn't exactly frequent.
Clive D.W. Feather
2020-06-26 14:54:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Yes, it still has trip cocks. The new signalling hasn't got that far. So,
unlikely to be a SPaD.
Presumably Chiltern won't be paying for the met line train control system
to be fitted to their DMUs so I guess TfL will have to fork out for that
when the time comes. I wonder if its worth it given the trains on that
section arn't exactly frequent.
If I remember correctly, that section will have "overlay": the new
system will drive the coloured lights to show the correct colours
corresponding to the issued movement authorities.

Richmond and Wimbledon, on the other hand, will have "underlay": the
signal aspects are fed back to the control centre which generates
movement authorities to correspond.

(I may have the names the wrong way round, but the concepts are right.)
--
Clive D.W. Feather
Recliner
2020-06-24 16:42:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commuter
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen?
(1) Met train is heading for Chesham, the points are therefore set to
cross over, and the Chiltern train SPADed.
I think the Met train was eastbound, and the Chiltern train heading for
Amersham, but was wrongly put on the crossover to the eastbound line.
That's the route taken by Met trains to Chesham, and no Chiltern train
should normally go that way.
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(2) Previous train through the area was a Met train to Chesham, the
points haven't been moved since, and the Chiltern train SPADed.
I doubt it. The tripcock would have stopped it, even if the Chiltern driver
went through a red light at low speed.
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(3) Either of (1) or (2) but a wrong-side signalling failure meant the
Chiltern train got a green signal.
Yes, possibly, the Chiltern got a green signal that would take it across
the crossover. But that's at least two failures, as that route should never
be set for a Chiltern train, and the signal should have been at red even
for a Met train heading for the crossover, given that it took it straight
towards an eastbound Met train.
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(4) Either of (1) or (2) but the signaller authorized the Chiltern
driver to pass the signal at danger.
Why would a signaller authorize a Chiltern train to take the route to
Chesham, regardless of the signal?
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(5) Repeat of Farnley Junction: a wiring fault meant the normal and
reverse positions of a crossover were exchanged in the signalling.
Wouldn't such a permanent fault have shown up much earlier?
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(6) Repeat of Barnham: an earth fault meant the points moved as the
train approached them.
That sounds more likely. It's probably why the Chesham branch stayed closed
for a couple of days, while the points and all the wiring was carefully
checked.
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
I'm sure there are more possibilities. We'll have to wait and see what
the RAIB have to say.
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the
line he was on?
The crossover is close to the station, IIRC, so he would have gone into
emergency braking as soon as he either saw the points facing the wrong
way or when he realized he was on the crossover. Don't forget trains
take some distance to stop.
Yes, and having just left the C&L station, the train wouldn't have been
travelling very fast.
Recliner
2020-06-25 01:03:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commuter
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen?
(1) Met train is heading for Chesham, the points are therefore set to
cross over, and the Chiltern train SPADed.
Looking at more pics, I'm leaning more to this theory. The trains seem to
have almost met when the Met train was standing at the C&L platform, so it
must have been an eastbound Chiltern train meeting a westbound Met train,
probably heading for Chesham. So the Chiltern train must have run through
and damaged the trailing points set for the Chesham branch.

But why didn't the tripcocks stop it well before then? Was it a signalling
fault, rather than a SPaD?
Post by Recliner
I think the Met train was eastbound, and the Chiltern train heading for
Amersham, but was wrongly put on the crossover to the eastbound line.
That's the route taken by Met trains to Chesham, and no Chiltern train
should normally go that way.
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(2) Previous train through the area was a Met train to Chesham, the
points haven't been moved since, and the Chiltern train SPADed.
I doubt it. The tripcock would have stopped it, even if the Chiltern driver
went through a red light at low speed.
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(3) Either of (1) or (2) but a wrong-side signalling failure meant the
Chiltern train got a green signal.
Yes, possibly, the Chiltern got a green signal that would take it across
the crossover. But that's at least two failures, as that route should never
be set for a Chiltern train, and the signal should have been at red even
for a Met train heading for the crossover, given that it took it straight
towards an eastbound Met train.
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(4) Either of (1) or (2) but the signaller authorized the Chiltern
driver to pass the signal at danger.
Why would a signaller authorize a Chiltern train to take the route to
Chesham, regardless of the signal?
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(5) Repeat of Farnley Junction: a wiring fault meant the normal and
reverse positions of a crossover were exchanged in the signalling.
Wouldn't such a permanent fault have shown up much earlier?
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(6) Repeat of Barnham: an earth fault meant the points moved as the
train approached them.
That sounds more likely. It's probably why the Chesham branch stayed closed
for a couple of days, while the points and all the wiring was carefully
checked.
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
I'm sure there are more possibilities. We'll have to wait and see what
the RAIB have to say.
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the
line he was on?
The crossover is close to the station, IIRC, so he would have gone into
emergency braking as soon as he either saw the points facing the wrong
way or when he realized he was on the crossover. Don't forget trains
take some distance to stop.
Yes, and having just left the C&L station, the train wouldn't have been
travelling very fast.
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-06-25 08:46:42 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:42:37 -0000 (UTC)
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commute
r
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen?
(1) Met train is heading for Chesham, the points are therefore set to
cross over, and the Chiltern train SPADed.
I think the Met train was eastbound, and the Chiltern train heading for
Amersham, but was wrongly put on the crossover to the eastbound line.
That's the route taken by Met trains to Chesham, and no Chiltern train
should normally go that way.
Anyone know if a Chiltern train has ever gone to Chesham for some special
run or other reason?
Clive D.W. Feather
2020-06-26 14:59:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(1) Met train is heading for Chesham, the points are therefore set to
cross over, and the Chiltern train SPADed.
I think the Met train was eastbound, and the Chiltern train heading for
Amersham,
Other way round: there aren't crossovers at the eastern end.
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(2) Previous train through the area was a Met train to Chesham, the
points haven't been moved since, and the Chiltern train SPADed.
I doubt it. The tripcock would have stopped it, even if the Chiltern driver
went through a red light at low speed.
Point.
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(3) Either of (1) or (2) but a wrong-side signalling failure meant the
Chiltern train got a green signal.
Yes, possibly, the Chiltern got a green signal that would take it across
the crossover. But that's at least two failures, as that route should never
be set for a Chiltern train, and the signal should have been at red even
for a Met train heading for the crossover, given that it took it straight
towards an eastbound Met train.
The Met train was stopped in the station; nobody has said that it got a
green signal.

A wrong-side failure could just result in a green aspect even though the
points weren't set for the route the Chiltern was taking.
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(4) Either of (1) or (2) but the signaller authorized the Chiltern
driver to pass the signal at danger.
Why would a signaller authorize a Chiltern train to take the route to
Chesham, regardless of the signal?
Back to front: the Chiltern train was on the track converging with the
one from Chesham. It would have been authorized into the station until
it hit the wrongly-set crossover.
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(5) Repeat of Farnley Junction: a wiring fault meant the normal and
reverse positions of a crossover were exchanged in the signalling.
Wouldn't such a permanent fault have shown up much earlier?
True. At Farnley itself the wiring fault was installed while the two
trains were waiting at the red signals at the crossover. (A rectifier
was installed the wrong way round and the specific circuitry meant that
normal and reverse were, sorry, reversed both in the point motor drives
and the detection. Both trains were given clear signals and the one that
moved first went over the crossover and into the other.)
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(6) Repeat of Barnham: an earth fault meant the points moved as the
train approached them.
That sounds more likely. It's probably why the Chesham branch stayed closed
for a couple of days, while the points and all the wiring was carefully
checked.
Could be.
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
The crossover is close to the station, IIRC, so he would have gone into
emergency braking as soon as he either saw the points facing the wrong
way or when he realized he was on the crossover. Don't forget trains
take some distance to stop.
Yes, and having just left the C&L station, the train wouldn't have been
travelling very fast.
Approaching the station (I presume to stop), not leaving.
--
Clive D.W. Feather
Recliner
2020-06-26 15:43:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(1) Met train is heading for Chesham, the points are therefore set to
cross over, and the Chiltern train SPADed.
I think the Met train was eastbound, and the Chiltern train heading for
Amersham,
Other way round: there aren't crossovers at the eastern end.
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(2) Previous train through the area was a Met train to Chesham, the
points haven't been moved since, and the Chiltern train SPADed.
I doubt it. The tripcock would have stopped it, even if the Chiltern driver
went through a red light at low speed.
Point.
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(3) Either of (1) or (2) but a wrong-side signalling failure meant the
Chiltern train got a green signal.
Yes, possibly, the Chiltern got a green signal that would take it across
the crossover. But that's at least two failures, as that route should never
be set for a Chiltern train, and the signal should have been at red even
for a Met train heading for the crossover, given that it took it straight
towards an eastbound Met train.
The Met train was stopped in the station; nobody has said that it got a
green signal.
A wrong-side failure could just result in a green aspect even though the
points weren't set for the route the Chiltern was taking.
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(4) Either of (1) or (2) but the signaller authorized the Chiltern
driver to pass the signal at danger.
Why would a signaller authorize a Chiltern train to take the route to
Chesham, regardless of the signal?
Back to front: the Chiltern train was on the track converging with the
one from Chesham. It would have been authorized into the station until
it hit the wrongly-set crossover.
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(5) Repeat of Farnley Junction: a wiring fault meant the normal and
reverse positions of a crossover were exchanged in the signalling.
Wouldn't such a permanent fault have shown up much earlier?
True. At Farnley itself the wiring fault was installed while the two
trains were waiting at the red signals at the crossover. (A rectifier
was installed the wrong way round and the specific circuitry meant that
normal and reverse were, sorry, reversed both in the point motor drives
and the detection. Both trains were given clear signals and the one that
moved first went over the crossover and into the other.)
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(6) Repeat of Barnham: an earth fault meant the points moved as the
train approached them.
That sounds more likely. It's probably why the Chesham branch stayed closed
for a couple of days, while the points and all the wiring was carefully
checked.
Could be.
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
The crossover is close to the station, IIRC, so he would have gone into
emergency braking as soon as he either saw the points facing the wrong
way or when he realized he was on the crossover. Don't forget trains
take some distance to stop.
Yes, and having just left the C&L station, the train wouldn't have been
travelling very fast.
Approaching the station (I presume to stop), not leaving.
Yes, my initial idea was wrong. We now know that the Chiltern train was
heading in the Up direction, and the Met train towards Chesham, but stopped
in the C&L platform.
Peter Able
2020-06-26 18:16:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(1) Met train is heading for Chesham, the points are therefore set to
cross over, and the Chiltern train SPADed.
I think the Met train was eastbound, and the Chiltern train heading for
Amersham,
Other way round: there aren't crossovers at the eastern end.
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(2) Previous train through the area was a Met train to Chesham, the
points haven't been moved since, and the Chiltern train SPADed.
I doubt it. The tripcock would have stopped it, even if the Chiltern driver
went through a red light at low speed.
Point.
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(3) Either of (1) or (2) but a wrong-side signalling failure meant the
Chiltern train got a green signal.
Yes, possibly, the Chiltern got a green signal that would take it across
the crossover. But that's at least two failures, as that route should never
be set for a Chiltern train, and the signal should have been at red even
for a Met train heading for the crossover, given that it took it straight
towards an eastbound Met train.
The Met train was stopped in the station; nobody has said that it got a
green signal.
A wrong-side failure could just result in a green aspect even though the
points weren't set for the route the Chiltern was taking.
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(4) Either of (1) or (2) but the signaller authorized the Chiltern
driver to pass the signal at danger.
Why would a signaller authorize a Chiltern train to take the route to
Chesham, regardless of the signal?
Back to front: the Chiltern train was on the track converging with the
one from Chesham. It would have been authorized into the station until
it hit the wrongly-set crossover.
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(5) Repeat of Farnley Junction: a wiring fault meant the normal and
reverse positions of a crossover were exchanged in the signalling.
Wouldn't such a permanent fault have shown up much earlier?
True. At Farnley itself the wiring fault was installed while the two
trains were waiting at the red signals at the crossover. (A rectifier
was installed the wrong way round and the specific circuitry meant that
normal and reverse were, sorry, reversed both in the point motor drives
and the detection. Both trains were given clear signals and the one that
moved first went over the crossover and into the other.)
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
(6) Repeat of Barnham: an earth fault meant the points moved as the
train approached them.
That sounds more likely. It's probably why the Chesham branch stayed closed
for a couple of days, while the points and all the wiring was carefully
checked.
Could be.
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
The crossover is close to the station, IIRC, so he would have gone into
emergency braking as soon as he either saw the points facing the wrong
way or when he realized he was on the crossover. Don't forget trains
take some distance to stop.
Yes, and having just left the C&L station, the train wouldn't have been
travelling very fast.
Approaching the station (I presume to stop), not leaving.
Yes, my initial idea was wrong. We now know that the Chiltern train was
heading in the Up direction, and the Met train towards Chesham, but stopped
in the C&L platform.
Ah, we locals knew better. It'll be interesting to read RAIB's analysis
of this, particularly the sequence of that northbound starter. I've
never experienced a Chesham taking priority over a southbound service of
any sort - but the route was clearly set to do so - err, I guess.

PA
Christopher A. Lee
2020-06-25 04:42:39 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:54:45 +0100, "Clive D.W. Feather"
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commuter
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen?
(1) Met train is heading for Chesham, the points are therefore set to
cross over, and the Chiltern train SPADed.
This seems the most likely to me. They are reporting that a set of
points was damaged, which would have happened when the Chiltern train
trailed through them.

The LU trainstop would have been at the stop signal, which is (Google
satellite map) close to the facing turnout which sent the Chiltern
train onto the wrong line.

Because the line was equipped with trainstops, not AWS, the driver
would not have had a warning at the distant signal, but he was
probably slowing down for the station.
Recliner
2020-06-25 06:42:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:54:45 +0100, "Clive D.W. Feather"
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commuter
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen?
(1) Met train is heading for Chesham, the points are therefore set to
cross over, and the Chiltern train SPADed.
This seems the most likely to me. They are reporting that a set of
points was damaged, which would have happened when the Chiltern train
trailed through them.
The LU trainstop would have been at the stop signal, which is (Google
satellite map) close to the facing turnout which sent the Chiltern
train onto the wrong line.
Because the line was equipped with trainstops, not AWS, the driver
would not have had a warning at the distant signal, but he was
probably slowing down for the station.
Yes, considering that the Chiltern train should already have been slowing
for the C&L station, I'm surprised it got so far after hitting the
trainstop. I suppose it's lucky it wasn't derailed when it ran through the
Chesham-set points.
Guy Gorton
2020-06-25 09:56:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commuter
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed
from that section of line now?
A lot of interesting history of the line at
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/

Guy Gorton
Recliner
2020-06-25 16:19:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commuter
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed
from that section of line now?
A lot of interesting history of the line at
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/
I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly
think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually
Chesham.
Guy Gorton
2020-06-25 16:40:31 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commuter
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed
from that section of line now?
A lot of interesting history of the line at
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/
I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly
think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually
Chesham.
Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from
electric to steam at Rickmansworth).

Guy Gorton
Peter Able
2020-06-25 17:28:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Gorton
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commuter
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed
from that section of line now?
A lot of interesting history of the line at
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/
I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly
think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually
Chesham.
Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from
electric to steam at Rickmansworth).
Guy Gorton
Which was well before the present majority were born !

I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now
if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR.

PA
Guy Gorton
2020-06-26 08:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Able
Post by Guy Gorton
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commuter
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed
from that section of line now?
A lot of interesting history of the line at
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/
I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly
think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually
Chesham.
Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from
electric to steam at Rickmansworth).
Guy Gorton
Which was well before the present majority were born !
I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now
if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR.
PA
The first 4 slides I ever took with the camera my father-in-law threw
at me 'cos he couldn't work it were of the last electric to steam
handover in 1961.
Extending to the LNWR would have been quite a geographical challenge
with both lines being in steep sided valleys. Lots of higher ground
between.

Guy Gorton
Recliner
2020-06-26 09:49:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Peter Able
Post by Guy Gorton
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commuter
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed
from that section of line now?
A lot of interesting history of the line at
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/
I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly
think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually
Chesham.
Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from
electric to steam at Rickmansworth).
Guy Gorton
Which was well before the present majority were born !
I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now
if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR.
PA
The first 4 slides I ever took with the camera my father-in-law threw
at me 'cos he couldn't work it were of the last electric to steam
handover in 1961.
Extending to the LNWR would have been quite a geographical challenge
with both lines being in steep sided valleys. Lots of higher ground
between.
How long did the trains stop while the locos were swapped? Was it really
as little as four minutes?

It would probably take at least 20 today, if it were allowed at all. Can
you imagine them allowing the crew to be working on live fourth rail
tracks, with steam and dripping water all around?
Guy Gorton
2020-06-26 13:08:00 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 09:49:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Peter Able
Post by Guy Gorton
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commuter
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed
from that section of line now?
A lot of interesting history of the line at
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/
I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly
think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually
Chesham.
Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from
electric to steam at Rickmansworth).
Guy Gorton
Which was well before the present majority were born !
I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now
if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR.
PA
The first 4 slides I ever took with the camera my father-in-law threw
at me 'cos he couldn't work it were of the last electric to steam
handover in 1961.
Extending to the LNWR would have been quite a geographical challenge
with both lines being in steep sided valleys. Lots of higher ground
between.
How long did the trains stop while the locos were swapped? Was it really
as little as four minutes?
It would probably take at least 20 today, if it were allowed at all. Can
you imagine them allowing the crew to be working on live fourth rail
tracks, with steam and dripping water all around?
The event I attended was well advertised and there were a lot of
railway buffs watching so it took quite a long time. It may even
have been a Special from Baker Street but I cannot remember.

Guy Gorton
Trolleybus
2020-06-27 09:51:00 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 09:49:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
It would probably take at least 20 today, if it were allowed at all. Can
you imagine them allowing the crew to be working on live fourth rail
tracks, with steam and dripping water all around?
I went to a Steam on the Met not THAT long ago. They dropped a piece
of old carpet over the centre rail when they went between for
coupling. They had no need to go anywhere near the third rail.
Recliner
2020-06-27 10:03:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Gorton
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 09:49:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
It would probably take at least 20 today, if it were allowed at all. Can
you imagine them allowing the crew to be working on live fourth rail
tracks, with steam and dripping water all around?
I went to a Steam on the Met not THAT long ago. They dropped a piece
of old carpet over the centre rail when they went between for
coupling. They had no need to go anywhere near the third rail.
Would a wet carpet provide effective insulation against 210V?
Trolleybus
2020-06-28 10:28:49 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 27 Jun 2020 10:03:42 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 09:49:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
It would probably take at least 20 today, if it were allowed at all. Can
you imagine them allowing the crew to be working on live fourth rail
tracks, with steam and dripping water all around?
I went to a Steam on the Met not THAT long ago. They dropped a piece
of old carpet over the centre rail when they went between for
coupling. They had no need to go anywhere near the third rail.
Would a wet carpet provide effective insulation against 210V?
They also avoided touching it! I agree that it looks like HSE theatre
but the carpet would be handy if you dropped a tool, I suppose.
Peter Able
2020-06-28 10:42:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 09:49:58 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
It would probably take at least 20 today, if it were allowed at all. Can
you imagine them allowing the crew to be working on live fourth rail
tracks, with steam and dripping water all around?
I went to a Steam on the Met not THAT long ago. They dropped a piece
of old carpet over the centre rail when they went between for
coupling. They had no need to go anywhere near the third rail.
Would a wet carpet provide effective insulation against 210V?
A rubber-based mat could look like old carpet.

PA
Clive D.W. Feather
2020-06-30 09:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trolleybus
Post by Recliner
It would probably take at least 20 today, if it were allowed at all. Can
you imagine them allowing the crew to be working on live fourth rail
tracks, with steam and dripping water all around?
I went to a Steam on the Met not THAT long ago. They dropped a piece
of old carpet over the centre rail when they went between for
coupling. They had no need to go anywhere near the third rail.
Last time I watched them do that at Steam on the Met (some years ago)
they had a shaped piece of plastic with a handle that they could put
over the negative rail (don't recall if it reached the positive) to
protect themselves.
--
Clive D.W. Feather
Marland
2020-06-28 01:09:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Peter Able
Post by Guy Gorton
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commuter
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed
from that section of line now?
A lot of interesting history of the line at
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/
I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly
think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually
Chesham.
Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from
electric to steam at Rickmansworth).
Guy Gorton
Which was well before the present majority were born !
I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now
if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR.
PA
The first 4 slides I ever took with the camera my father-in-law threw
at me 'cos he couldn't work it were of the last electric to steam
handover in 1961.
Extending to the LNWR would have been quite a geographical challenge
with both lines being in steep sided valleys. Lots of higher ground
between.
How long did the trains stop while the locos were swapped? Was it really
as little as four minutes?
It would probably take at least 20 today, if it were allowed at all. Can
you imagine them allowing the crew to be working on live fourth rail
tracks, with steam and dripping water all around?
There is a short clip on you tube which shows part of a change,



You would have thought that with the change taking place in the same spot
every time
the crews would have been well practised at stopping in just the right
place a short gap in the conductor rails could have been left to minimise
any risk to the shunter, instead the arrangement
was protection boarding each side of the conductor rails and wood
infilling between those surrounding the negative rail and the running
rails. When dry I suppose the wood would have been a fairly good insulator
and if thick enough probably was even when the surface was damp.

GH
Peter Able
2020-06-26 18:08:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Peter Able
Post by Guy Gorton
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commuter
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side of the
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been removed
from that section of line now?
A lot of interesting history of the line at
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/
I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly
think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually
Chesham.
Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from
electric to steam at Rickmansworth).
Guy Gorton
Which was well before the present majority were born !
I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now
if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR.
PA
The first 4 slides I ever took with the camera my father-in-law threw
at me 'cos he couldn't work it were of the last electric to steam
handover in 1961.
Extending to the LNWR would have been quite a geographical challenge
with both lines being in steep sided valleys. Lots of higher ground
between.
Guy Gorton
Never got further than Rickmansworth because of the damned restriction
they placed on the five-bob Twin Rovers. So I only saw the high-speed
loco changes.

What would HSE say about that process nowadays?

PA
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-06-26 11:18:58 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Guy Gorton
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commute
r
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side
of the
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been
removed
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
from that section of line now?
A lot of interesting history of the line at
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/
I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly
think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually
Chesham.
Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from
electric to steam at Rickmansworth).
Guy Gorton
Which was well before the present majority were born !
I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now
if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR.
IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and
that only closed in 94.
Recliner
2020-06-26 11:23:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Guy Gorton
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commute
r
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side
of the
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been
removed
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
from that section of line now?
A lot of interesting history of the line at
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/
I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly
think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually
Chesham.
Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from
electric to steam at Rickmansworth).
Guy Gorton
Which was well before the present majority were born !
I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now
if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR.
IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and
that only closed in 94.
Yes. And, oddly enough, it's still the datum point for the whole LU
network.
Peter Able
2020-06-28 10:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Guy Gorton
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commute
r
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side
of the
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been
removed
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
from that section of line now?
A lot of interesting history of the line at
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/
I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly
think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually
Chesham.
Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from
electric to steam at Rickmansworth).
Guy Gorton
Which was well before the present majority were born !
I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now
if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR.
IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and
that only closed in 94.
Yes. And, oddly enough, it's still the datum point for the whole LU
network.
Hardly odd, just lateral thinking that saved a lot of money.

PA
Peter Able
2020-06-26 18:04:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Guy Gorton
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commute
r
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side
of the
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been
removed
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
from that section of line now?
A lot of interesting history of the line at
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/
I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly
think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually
Chesham.
Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from
electric to steam at Rickmansworth).
Guy Gorton
Which was well before the present majority were born !
I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now
if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR.
IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and
that only closed in 94.
That was my first instinct, but from Clive's website I see that I was
wrong !

PA
Recliner
2020-06-26 19:27:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Able
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Guy Gorton
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commute
r
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side
of the
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been
removed
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
from that section of line now?
A lot of interesting history of the line at
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/
I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly
think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually
Chesham.
Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from
electric to steam at Rickmansworth).
Guy Gorton
Which was well before the present majority were born !
I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now
if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR.
IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and
that only closed in 94.
That was my first instinct, but from Clive's website I see that I was
wrong !
Was it not the most distant station between 1961 and 1994?
Peter Able
2020-06-27 16:42:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Peter Able
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Guy Gorton
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commute
r
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side
of the
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been
removed
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
from that section of line now?
A lot of interesting history of the line at
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/
I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly
think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually
Chesham.
Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from
electric to steam at Rickmansworth).
Guy Gorton
Which was well before the present majority were born !
I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now
if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR.
IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and
that only closed in 94.
That was my first instinct, but from Clive's website I see that I was
wrong !
Was it not the most distant station between 1961 and 1994?
Unless I'm misreading http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/

Ongar to Bank: 37.77km - 0

37.77km from Chesham is just about Finchley Road

Of course, those as track kilometres, but Google Maps gives the direct
distances from the City of London as Chesham 42km, Ongar 31km.

PA (an engineer, not a cartographer!)
Recliner
2020-06-27 20:33:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Able
Post by Recliner
Post by Peter Able
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Guy Gorton
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commute
r
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side
of the
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been
removed
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
from that section of line now?
A lot of interesting history of the line at
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/
I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly
think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually
Chesham.
Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from
electric to steam at Rickmansworth).
Guy Gorton
Which was well before the present majority were born !
I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now
if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR.
IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and
that only closed in 94.
That was my first instinct, but from Clive's website I see that I was
wrong !
Was it not the most distant station between 1961 and 1994?
Unless I'm misreading http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/
Ongar to Bank: 37.77km - 0
37.77km from Chesham is just about Finchley Road
I suppose it depends on which point in London you regard as the centre of
the LU network? If Baker St, then Ongar would be most distant but Chesham
probably would if you selected Farringdon (as the original City terminus of
the Met). But I must say it's closer than I expected.
Post by Peter Able
Of course, those as track kilometres, but Google Maps gives the direct
distances from the City of London as Chesham 42km, Ongar 31km.
PA (an engineer, not a cartographer!)
Yes, the Ongar rail route is much more meandering, so you covered less
geographic distance per track km. It seemed further than Chesham, as it was
slower and always seemed very remote for the short time it was part of the
LU network.
Peter Able
2020-06-28 08:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Peter Able
Post by Recliner
Post by Peter Able
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Guy Gorton
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commute
r
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side
of the
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been
removed
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
from that section of line now?
A lot of interesting history of the line at
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/
I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly
think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually
Chesham.
Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from
electric to steam at Rickmansworth).
Guy Gorton
Which was well before the present majority were born !
I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now
if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR.
IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and
that only closed in 94.
That was my first instinct, but from Clive's website I see that I was
wrong !
Was it not the most distant station between 1961 and 1994?
Unless I'm misreading http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/
Ongar to Bank: 37.77km - 0
37.77km from Chesham is just about Finchley Road
I suppose it depends on which point in London you regard as the centre of
the LU network? If Baker St, then Ongar would be most distant but Chesham
probably would if you selected Farringdon (as the original City terminus of
the Met). But I must say it's closer than I expected.
Post by Peter Able
Of course, those as track kilometres, but Google Maps gives the direct
distances from the City of London as Chesham 42km, Ongar 31km.
PA (an engineer, not a cartographer!)
Yes, the Ongar rail route is much more meandering, so you covered less
geographic distance per track km. It seemed further than Chesham, as it was
slower and always seemed very remote for the short time it was part of the
LU network.
I really don't believe that anyone would confuse which of Finchley Road
or Bank was more likely to be the datum for London. Just in case that
someone thinks that London has shifted West from the City of London.
Ongar to Oxford Street is just about the same track distance as Chesham
to Baker Street. The same comparison applies.

As for meandering, here are the facts. The ratio of track kilometres to
straight-line kilometres is 1.22 for Ongar and 1.32 for Chesham. So
Chesham wins the meander case, too.

As for your impressions, Chesham to Moorgate: tomorrow, typically 74
minutes. Epping to Bank, same time tomorrow, 38 minutes. Would the 10km
Ongar to Epping plus the connect time soak up the other 36 minutes -
plus, for fair comparison, the wait at Chalfont and Latimer off the
Chesham shuttle?

Old "facts", all wrong.

PA
Recliner
2020-06-28 09:03:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Able
Post by Recliner
Post by Peter Able
Post by Recliner
Post by Peter Able
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Guy Gorton
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commute
r
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side
of the
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been
removed
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
from that section of line now?
A lot of interesting history of the line at
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/
I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly
think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually
Chesham.
Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from
electric to steam at Rickmansworth).
Guy Gorton
Which was well before the present majority were born !
I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now
if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR.
IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and
that only closed in 94.
That was my first instinct, but from Clive's website I see that I was
wrong !
Was it not the most distant station between 1961 and 1994?
Unless I'm misreading http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/
Ongar to Bank: 37.77km - 0
37.77km from Chesham is just about Finchley Road
I suppose it depends on which point in London you regard as the centre of
the LU network? If Baker St, then Ongar would be most distant but Chesham
probably would if you selected Farringdon (as the original City terminus of
the Met). But I must say it's closer than I expected.
Post by Peter Able
Of course, those as track kilometres, but Google Maps gives the direct
distances from the City of London as Chesham 42km, Ongar 31km.
PA (an engineer, not a cartographer!)
Yes, the Ongar rail route is much more meandering, so you covered less
geographic distance per track km. It seemed further than Chesham, as it was
slower and always seemed very remote for the short time it was part of the
LU network.
I really don't believe that anyone would confuse which of Finchley Road
or Bank was more likely to be the datum for London. Just in case that
someone thinks that London has shifted West from the City of London.
Ongar to Oxford Street is just about the same track distance as Chesham
to Baker Street. The same comparison applies.
As for meandering, here are the facts. The ratio of track kilometres to
straight-line kilometres is 1.22 for Ongar and 1.32 for Chesham. So
Chesham wins the meander case, too.
As for your impressions, Chesham to Moorgate: tomorrow, typically 74
minutes. Epping to Bank, same time tomorrow, 38 minutes. Would the 10km
Ongar to Epping plus the connect time soak up the other 36 minutes -
plus, for fair comparison, the wait at Chalfont and Latimer off the
Chesham shuttle?
Old "facts", all wrong.
Interesting, I'd never explicitly made those comparisons.
Peter Able
2020-06-28 09:48:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Peter Able
Post by Recliner
Post by Peter Able
Post by Recliner
Post by Peter Able
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:28:36 +0100
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Guy Gorton
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 16:19:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8448435/Investigation-launched-commute
r
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
-train-going-wrong-way-London-Tube-line-nearly-crashes.html
How on earth can this happen? Surely the chiltern driver knew what side
of the
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
line he was on? And why didn't the tripcocks work or have they been
removed
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by Recliner
Post by Guy Gorton
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
from that section of line now?
A lot of interesting history of the line at
http://www.metroland.org.uk/cheshamflyer/
I think that, thanks to the misleading Tube map, a lot of people wrongly
think that Amersham is the most distant LU destination, when it's actually
Chesham.
Certainly since the Met stopped going to Aylesbury. (Change loco from
electric to steam at Rickmansworth).
Guy Gorton
Which was well before the present majority were born !
I know it was probably only a threat, but how different it might be now
if the Chesham line had extended on to the LNWR.
IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and
that only closed in 94.
That was my first instinct, but from Clive's website I see that I was
wrong !
Was it not the most distant station between 1961 and 1994?
Unless I'm misreading http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/
Ongar to Bank: 37.77km - 0
37.77km from Chesham is just about Finchley Road
I suppose it depends on which point in London you regard as the centre of
the LU network? If Baker St, then Ongar would be most distant but Chesham
probably would if you selected Farringdon (as the original City terminus of
the Met). But I must say it's closer than I expected.
Post by Peter Able
Of course, those as track kilometres, but Google Maps gives the direct
distances from the City of London as Chesham 42km, Ongar 31km.
PA (an engineer, not a cartographer!)
Yes, the Ongar rail route is much more meandering, so you covered less
geographic distance per track km. It seemed further than Chesham, as it was
slower and always seemed very remote for the short time it was part of the
LU network.
I really don't believe that anyone would confuse which of Finchley Road
or Bank was more likely to be the datum for London. Just in case that
someone thinks that London has shifted West from the City of London.
Ongar to Oxford Street is just about the same track distance as Chesham
to Baker Street. The same comparison applies.
As for meandering, here are the facts. The ratio of track kilometres to
straight-line kilometres is 1.22 for Ongar and 1.32 for Chesham. So
Chesham wins the meander case, too.
As for your impressions, Chesham to Moorgate: tomorrow, typically 74
minutes. Epping to Bank, same time tomorrow, 38 minutes. Would the 10km
Ongar to Epping plus the connect time soak up the other 36 minutes -
plus, for fair comparison, the wait at Chalfont and Latimer off the
Chesham shuttle?
Old "facts", all wrong.
Interesting, I'd never explicitly made those comparisons.
Who was it who said,

"question everything but the legitimacy of your own birth" ?

Not a bad life-guide, although it invites the opprobrium of the
ignorant. ( QED impedance! )
Clive D.W. Feather
2020-07-02 20:19:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Able
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and
that only closed in 94.
That was my first instinct, but from Clive's website I see that I was
wrong !
As already discussed, it depends on what you count as "Central London".

My instinct is to use the Circle Line as the point to measure to. On
that basis (all numbers rounded):

Brill: 81 km
Verney Jn: 80 km
Quainton Rd: 70 km
Aylesbury: 60 km
Chesham: 42 km
Amersham: 38 km
Ongar: 37 km
Windsor & Eton Central: 35 km
Epping: 27 km
Uxbridge via Acton: 27 km
Uxbridge: 26 km
Watford Jn: 26 km
Watford Market via Finchley: 26 km
Upminster: 24 km
Heathrow: 23 km
Bushey Heath via Finchley: 20 km
Ealing Broadway: 20 km
High Barnet: 16 km
Edgware via Finchley: 16 km
Edgware via Golders Green: 14 km
Morden: 14 km
Mill Hill East: 11 km
--
Clive D.W. Feather
Recliner
2020-07-02 20:54:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Post by Peter Able
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and
that only closed in 94.
That was my first instinct, but from Clive's website I see that I was
wrong !
As already discussed, it depends on what you count as "Central London".
My instinct is to use the Circle Line as the point to measure to. On
Brill: 81 km
Verney Jn: 80 km
Quainton Rd: 70 km
Aylesbury: 60 km
Chesham: 42 km
Amersham: 38 km
Ongar: 37 km
Windsor & Eton Central: 35 km
Epping: 27 km
Uxbridge via Acton: 27 km
Uxbridge: 26 km
Watford Jn: 26 km
Watford Market via Finchley: 26 km
Upminster: 24 km
Heathrow: 23 km
Bushey Heath via Finchley: 20 km
Ealing Broadway: 20 km
High Barnet: 16 km
Edgware via Finchley: 16 km
Edgware via Golders Green: 14 km
Morden: 14 km
Mill Hill East: 11 km
Some more surprises there: I'd always assumed that Verney Junction was
further than Brill. And I'm surprised that Upminster is only slightly
further than Heathrow (T5, I presume?). Windsor and Eton Central is also
much closer than I'd guessed.
Clive D.W. Feather
2020-07-04 09:05:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Some more surprises there: I'd always assumed that Verney Junction was
further than Brill.
Verney Junction would be 127.83 km from Ongar and Brill would be 128.3
km.
Post by Recliner
And I'm surprised that Upminster is only slightly
further than Heathrow (T5, I presume?).
Upminster to Minories Jn is 36.43-12.19 = 24.24 km.
Gloucester Road to Heathrow T5 is 69.40-45.42 = 23.98 km.

I forgot about T4. It's at 71.53 (so more than 2 km further than T5) but
that's via T2&3. Going direct from Hatton Cross it would be at 66.83.
Post by Recliner
Windsor and Eton Central is also
much closer than I'd guessed.
25.01 km beyond Ealing Broadway.
--
Clive D.W. Feather
Recliner
2020-07-04 09:56:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Post by Recliner
Some more surprises there: I'd always assumed that Verney Junction was
further than Brill.
Verney Junction would be 127.83 km from Ongar and Brill would be 128.3
km.
Of course, Ongar and Brill/Verney Junction weren't part of the LU/Met
network at the same time, so they'd never have appeared on one network map.
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Post by Recliner
And I'm surprised that Upminster is only slightly
further than Heathrow (T5, I presume?).
Upminster to Minories Jn is 36.43-12.19 = 24.24 km.
Gloucester Road to Heathrow T5 is 69.40-45.42 = 23.98 km.
I forgot about T4. It's at 71.53 (so more than 2 km further than T5) but
that's via T2&3. Going direct from Hatton Cross it would be at 66.83.
As it's a one-way loop, which would be the 'official' direction to measure?
I suppose, if all distances are measured from Ongar, you'd measure the
direct route. Would that be measured assuming switches at Mile End and
Hammersmith?
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Post by Recliner
Windsor and Eton Central is also much closer than I'd guessed.
25.01 km beyond Ealing Broadway.
Clive D.W. Feather
2020-07-04 14:20:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
I forgot about T4. It's at 71.53 (so more than 2 km further than T5) but
that's via T2&3. Going direct from Hatton Cross it would be at 66.83.
As it's a one-way loop, which would be the 'official' direction to measure?
It's measured anti-clockwise, so if there are any posts in the tunnels
that's the way they go.
Post by Recliner
I suppose, if all distances are measured from Ongar, you'd measure the
direct route. Would that be measured assuming switches at Mile End and
Hammersmith?
Mile End and Barons Court.

Transfers are always done somewhere where the lines are parallel or on
the same track so you don't need to identify a specific place to
transfer.
--
Clive D.W. Feather
Peter Able
2020-07-04 17:29:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Post by Peter Able
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
IIRC Ongar used to be the tube station most distant from central london and
that only closed in 94.
That was my first instinct, but from Clive's website I see that I was
wrong !
As already discussed, it depends on what you count as "Central London".
My instinct is to use the Circle Line as the point to measure to. On
That's exactly why I changed what was going to be straight comparison of
distances to be how far the Chesham line would have got when the Ongar
got to the Bank. Seemed a far more graphical comparison to have one in
the city and the other not even within the Circle.

Good to see research and data overturn accepted BS.

PA

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