LO lines to be named

Post by Recliner
From
<https://www.cityam.com/mayor-of-london-election-sadiq-khan-pledges-to-n
ame-london-overground-lines/>
Sadiq Khan has pledged to give individual names to London Overground train
lines if re-elected as mayor of London next month.
Khan’s manifesto, released today, said the “London Overground network has
grown considerably over recent years” and that “to reflect this I’ll launch
a programme to name individual routes, giving each its own identity”.
The London Overground now has 112 stations over six different lines,
however none of the lines are named like on the London Underground.
The policy announcement will see a programme launched by Khan to choose
names for the six lines, if he wins re-election on 6 May, however no
details were given on what the criteria will be.

If one isn't the "Wombling Line", then there's no justice in this world.

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2021-04-06 19:10:50 UTC

If one isn't the "Wombling Line", then there's no justice in this world.

Unfortunately, LO doesn't go anywhere near Wimbledon.

Marland

2021-04-06 21:30:08 UTC

Post by Recliner
From
<https://www.cityam.com/mayor-of-london-election-sadiq-khan-pledges-to-name-london-overground-lines/>
Sadiq Khan has pledged to give individual names to London Overground train
lines if re-elected as mayor of London next month.
Khan’s manifesto, released today, said the “London Overground network has
grown considerably over recent years” and that “to reflect this I’ll launch
a programme to name individual routes, giving each its own identity”.
The London Overground now has 112 stations over six different lines,
however none of the lines are named like on the London Underground.
The policy announcement will see a programme launched by Khan to choose
names for the six lines, if he wins re-election on 6 May, however no
details were given on what the criteria will be.

Does the East London line even though services now go further still retain
that name or has it been dropped, if it has been renewing it would seem
logical. The Met only had exclusive use of it from the mid 1960’s till the
Overground took over ,a comparatively short period in its long history
when services like now went further.

GH

Recliner

2021-04-06 22:39:34 UTC

Post by Recliner
From
<https://www.cityam.com/mayor-of-london-election-sadiq-khan-pledges-to-name-london-overground-lines/>
Sadiq Khan has pledged to give individual names to London Overground train
lines if re-elected as mayor of London next month.
Khan’s manifesto, released today, said the “London Overground network has
grown considerably over recent years” and that “to reflect this I’ll launch
a programme to name individual routes, giving each its own identity”.
The London Overground now has 112 stations over six different lines,
however none of the lines are named like on the London Underground.
The policy announcement will see a programme launched by Khan to choose
names for the six lines, if he wins re-election on 6 May, however no
details were given on what the criteria will be.

None of the LO services currently have official names, though of course
locals might continue to use the historical names (DC Line, etc). The
problem with some of the old geographic names is that multiple modern
routes share some lines.

For example, the physical East London line is used by routes to New Cross,
West Croydon and Clapham Junction. Should these three routes warrent their
own, different names? Or should they simply be regarded as three branches
of the East London Line, just as the District Line has four western
branches? But shouldn't the Clapham Junction route be called the South
London Line? So you might have an East London Line with branches to New
Cross and West Croydon, and the South London Line which shares part of the
route, but then heads west to Clapham Junction.

The old names also have oddities: the North London Line goes further west
than the West London Line, and further east than the East London Line,
while the East London Line to West Croydon goes further south than the
South London Line.

Net result:
- the northern-most most LO branch isn't the North London Line
- the eastern and western-most LO branches are on the North London Line
- the southern-most branch is the East London line.

A further complication is the possible confusion between the Northern LU
line (which is the southern-most LU line) and the entirely separate North
London LO line. Despite crossing each other, the Northern LU line has no
single station interchanges with any LO line.

Or you could invent Bakerloo-style composite names, but would the two
entirely separate routes from H&I to Clapham Junction cause confusion?

Other countries would just use route numbers, but that seems not to be our
style.

Basil Jet

2021-04-07 00:03:56 UTC

Post by Recliner
None of the LO services currently have official names, though of course
locals might continue to use the historical names (DC Line, etc). The
problem with some of the old geographic names is that multiple modern
routes share some lines.

I hope the Chingford Line and the Enfield Town/Cheshunt line get
different names and colours on the map, because the latter calls at
London Fields and Cambridge Heath and the former doesn't.

I like Ermine Line for the Cheshunt line, because Liverpool Street,
Stoke Newington, Bruce Grove, Edmonton Green and Theobalds Grove are all
on the Roman road Ermine Street. But they'll probably go for George
Floyd line instead.

--
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Recliner

2021-04-07 00:10:11 UTC

I hope the Chingford Line and the Enfield Town/Cheshunt line get
different names and colours on the map, because the latter calls at
London Fields and Cambridge Heath and the former doesn't.
I like Ermine Line for the Cheshunt line, because Liverpool Street,
Stoke Newington, Bruce Grove, Edmonton Green and Theobalds Grove are all
on the Roman road Ermine Street. But they'll probably go for George
Floyd line instead.

Whatever the names, I don't think they can get new colours. There just
aren't enough distinct shades available. I wonder if they could use
differently shaped dashed orange lines?

Basil Jet

2021-04-07 00:24:05 UTC

I hope the Chingford Line and the Enfield Town/Cheshunt line get
different names and colours on the map, because the latter calls at
London Fields and Cambridge Heath and the former doesn't.
I like Ermine Line for the Cheshunt line, because Liverpool Street,
Stoke Newington, Bruce Grove, Edmonton Green and Theobalds Grove are all
on the Roman road Ermine Street. But they'll probably go for George
Floyd line instead.

Whatever the names, I don't think they can get new colours. There just
aren't enough distinct shades available. I wonder if they could use
differently shaped dashed orange lines?

They could use hollow lines, as currently used for the LO and DLR. The
three DLR lines shown on https://tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/dlr should have
names and colours on the main Tube map as well.

--
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Recliner

2021-04-07 08:44:48 UTC

I hope the Chingford Line and the Enfield Town/Cheshunt line get
different names and colours on the map, because the latter calls at
London Fields and Cambridge Heath and the former doesn't.
I like Ermine Line for the Cheshunt line, because Liverpool Street,
Stoke Newington, Bruce Grove, Edmonton Green and Theobalds Grove are all
on the Roman road Ermine Street. But they'll probably go for George
Floyd line instead.

Whatever the names, I don't think they can get new colours. There just
aren't enough distinct shades available. I wonder if they could use
differently shaped dashed orange lines?

They could use hollow lines, as currently used for the LO and DLR.

Yes, that could work.

Post by Basil Jet
The
three DLR lines shown on https://tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/dlr should have
names and colours on the main Tube map as well.

Are there only three DLR lines?

Meanwhile, someone has suggested new names for the existing lines:
<https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EyWytx_XAAIGWnB?format=jpg&name=large>

M***@rncs.edu

2021-04-07 10:59:46 UTC

On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 08:44:48 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Basil Jet
The
three DLR lines shown on https://tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/dlr should have
names and colours on the main Tube map as well.

Are there only three DLR lines?

They're not really even lines, just routes with plenty of shared running.

Basil Jet

2021-04-07 12:39:48 UTC

Post by M***@rncs.edu
On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 08:44:48 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Basil Jet
The
three DLR lines shown on https://tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/dlr should have
names and colours on the main Tube map as well.

Are there only three DLR lines?

They're not really even lines, just routes with plenty of shared running.

That could be applied just as well, or badly, to the subsurface lines.
If you're on foot halfway between Bank and Tower Gateway and you need to
get to Beckton or City Airport, it would be nice if the standard Tube
map told you which terminus has direct trains and which doesn't.

--
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2003 - The Lemon Of Pink - The Books

M***@i87pb7ivqta4ptylf_f.ac.uk

2021-04-07 14:03:10 UTC

On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 13:39:48 +0100

Post by M***@rncs.edu
On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 08:44:48 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Basil Jet
The
three DLR lines shown on https://tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/dlr should have
names and colours on the main Tube map as well.

Are there only three DLR lines?

They're not really even lines, just routes with plenty of shared running.

When I last commuted on the DLR in 2015 trains from Bank went to IIRC 3
destinations so the map would probably look rather complex.

Basil Jet

2021-04-07 17:32:22 UTC

Post by Basil Jet
The
three DLR lines shown on https://tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/dlr should have
names and colours on the main Tube map as well.

Are there only three DLR lines?

Grouping of services into lines is fairly arbitrary. The Central Line
has multiple services branded as a single line, which keeps the map
simple and has no obvious drawbacks.

IMO the Northern services through Charing Cross and the Northern
services through Bank should be named and coloured separately, even if
the timetable remains the same as now, to stop tourists thinking you can
get the Northern Line from Leicester Square to Kings Cross.

As for the DLR, the Tower-Beckton has to have a different colour from
the Bank - Woolwich, and the two lines at Stratford need different
colours and names from each other. I think the three groupings used on
the map I linked to are the minimal solution that meets those
requirements, although the colours need to be more different - they are
using slight variations on the DLR colour, when LU isn't stupid enough
to use different shades of red and blue for all of their lines.

My fantasy for a long time is for the Overground lines to be named after
animals with distinctive coats, and for nearly all of the LU stock to be
liveried like the animals (apart from a few line-hopping spares in the
current livery). An unrecognised asset pretty much unique to LO is loads
of bridges in prominent locations like Camden and Shoreditch, and these
could also be liveried like the trains. The livery would also appear in
simplified form on the tube map line. So, the East London Line becomes
"The Tiger" (no "line"), and the trains, bridges and map line have tiger
appearance - the Chingford line becomes "The Giraffe", the
Romford-Upminster becomes "The Ladybird" etc.

This would actually turn the LO into a tourist attraction, with people
heading out to Romford just to see the Ladybird train.

See
Loading Image...

for a reminder of the old black and white tube map, for an indication of
how patterned versions of coloured lines could represent the LO and the DLR.

--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
2003 - The Lemon Of Pink - The Books

m***@round-midnight.org.uk

2021-04-07 19:18:47 UTC

Post by Basil Jet
The
three DLR lines shown on https://tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/dlr should have
names and colours on the main Tube map as well.

Are there only three DLR lines?

Grouping of services into lines is fairly arbitrary. The Central Line
has multiple services branded as a single line, which keeps the map
simple and has no obvious drawbacks.
IMO the Northern services through Charing Cross and the Northern
services through Bank should be named and coloured separately, even if
the timetable remains the same as now, to stop tourists thinking you can
get the Northern Line from Leicester Square to Kings Cross.
As for the DLR, the Tower-Beckton has to have a different colour from
the Bank - Woolwich, and the two lines at Stratford need different
colours and names from each other. I think the three groupings used on
the map I linked to are the minimal solution that meets those
requirements, although the colours need to be more different - they are
using slight variations on the DLR colour, when LU isn't stupid enough
to use different shades of red and blue for all of their lines.
My fantasy for a long time is for the Overground lines to be named after
animals with distinctive coats, and for nearly all of the LU stock to be
liveried like the animals (apart from a few line-hopping spares in the
current livery). An unrecognised asset pretty much unique to LO is loads
of bridges in prominent locations like Camden and Shoreditch, and these
could also be liveried like the trains. The livery would also appear in
simplified form on the tube map line. So, the East London Line becomes
"The Tiger" (no "line"), and the trains, bridges and map line have tiger
appearance - the Chingford line becomes "The Giraffe", the
Romford-Upminster becomes "The Ladybird" etc.
This would actually turn the LO into a tourist attraction, with people
heading out to Romford just to see the Ladybird train.
See
https://mk0brilliantmaptxoqs.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Blackandwhitetubemap-600x315-cropped.png
for a reminder of the old black and white tube map, for an indication of
how patterned versions of coloured lines could represent the LO and the DLR.

There are too many colours on the map already, enough to make it
impossible to distinguish between them for some of us.

Graham Harrison

2021-04-07 22:15:00 UTC

<snip>>

Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
There are too many colours on the map already, enough to make it
impossible to distinguish between them for some of us.

Too many designers fail to appreciate the issues of colour blindness.
It's not just the London Underground Diagram, web pages, print
advertising; almost anything that uses colour. I sometimes think
patterns might be better but I find myself wondering if they might
cause other problems (epilepsy?).

When I was tested for colour blindness there was some interesting
literature I was provided with which suggested that the spectacles
that get prescribed for colour blindness have been shown to help some
dyslexics. I don't know, just reporting what was claimed. But one
thing a dyslexic child was claimed to have said stuck with me "the
letters in the words dance across the page". It made me realise
there's an awful lot we don't know about ourselves.

Charles Ellson

2021-04-07 22:54:07 UTC

On Wed, 07 Apr 2021 23:15:00 +0100, Graham Harrison

Post by Graham Harrison
<snip>>

Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
There are too many colours on the map already, enough to make it
impossible to distinguish between them for some of us.

Too many designers fail to appreciate the issues of colour blindness.
It's not just the London Underground Diagram, web pages, print
advertising; almost anything that uses colour. I sometimes think
patterns might be better but I find myself wondering if they might
cause other problems (epilepsy?).
When I was tested for colour blindness there was some interesting
literature I was provided with which suggested that the spectacles
that get prescribed for colour blindness have been shown to help some
dyslexics. I don't know, just reporting what was claimed. But one
thing a dyslexic child was claimed to have said stuck with me "the
letters in the words dance across the page". It made me realise
there's an awful lot we don't know about ourselves.

That dyslexic child is not alone. That effect is one of the reasons
you see some people reading while moving a rule under each line or
moving their finger along the text (other than when that is done to
keep your place while reading out to and intermittently looking toward
an audience).

Basil Jet

2021-04-08 00:36:13 UTC

Post by Graham Harrison
<snip>>

Post by m***@round-midnight.org.uk
There are too many colours on the map already, enough to make it
impossible to distinguish between them for some of us.

Too many designers fail to appreciate the issues of colour blindness.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/bw-large-print-map.pdf

--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
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2021-04-09 09:00:18 UTC

Post by Graham Harrison
When I was tested for colour blindness there was some interesting
literature I was provided with which suggested that the spectacles
that get prescribed for colour blindness have been shown to help some
dyslexics. I don't know, just reporting what was claimed. But one
thing a dyslexic child was claimed to have said stuck with me "the
letters in the words dance across the page". It made me realise
there's an awful lot we don't know about ourselves.

A friend of mine had a couple of children who had reading difficulties.
She had them tested for Meares-Irlen syndrome and their reading improved
with coloured / tinted glasses.

Sam Wilson

2021-04-07 21:13:18 UTC

Post by Basil Jet
My fantasy for a long time is for the Overground lines to be named after
animals with distinctive coats, and for nearly all of the LU stock to be
liveried like the animals (apart from a few line-hopping spares in the
current livery). ... So, the East London Line becomes
"The Tiger" (no "line"), and the trains, bridges and map line have tiger
appearance - the Chingford line becomes "The Giraffe", the
Romford-Upminster becomes "The Ladybird" etc.

<https://www.lothianbuses.com/news/2017/10/edinburgh-goes-wild-for-new-zoo-design-buses/>

I know children who say things like “look, it’s the lemur bus!”

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Basil Jet

2021-04-08 00:38:48 UTC

Post by Basil Jet
My fantasy for a long time is for the Overground lines to be named after
animals with distinctive coats, and for nearly all of the LU stock to be
liveried like the animals (apart from a few line-hopping spares in the
current livery). ... So, the East London Line becomes
"The Tiger" (no "line"), and the trains, bridges and map line have tiger
appearance - the Chingford line becomes "The Giraffe", the
Romford-Upminster becomes "The Ladybird" etc.

<https://www.lothianbuses.com/news/2017/10/edinburgh-goes-wild-for-new-zoo-design-buses/>
I know children who say things like “look, it’s the lemur bus!”
Sam

I wasn't suggesting the trains have pictures of animal faces or body
shapes, but that the entire train be covered in zebra stripes etc.

--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
2004 - 18 Monkeys On A Dead Man's Chest - David Thomas & Two Pale Boys

Recliner

2021-04-08 05:24:22 UTC

Post by Basil Jet
My fantasy for a long time is for the Overground lines to be named after
animals with distinctive coats, and for nearly all of the LU stock to be
liveried like the animals (apart from a few line-hopping spares in the
current livery). ... So, the East London Line becomes
"The Tiger" (no "line"), and the trains, bridges and map line have tiger
appearance - the Chingford line becomes "The Giraffe", the
Romford-Upminster becomes "The Ladybird" etc.

<https://www.lothianbuses.com/news/2017/10/edinburgh-goes-wild-for-new-zoo-design-buses/>
I know children who say things like “look, it’s the lemur bus!”
Sam

I wasn't suggesting the trains have pictures of animal faces or body
shapes, but that the entire train be covered in zebra stripes etc.

Obviously not an option with LO, as the fleet is mostly shared between
routes. '

Basil Jet

2021-04-08 10:44:51 UTC

Post by Basil Jet
My fantasy for a long time is for the Overground lines to be named after
animals with distinctive coats, and for nearly all of the LU stock to be
liveried like the animals (apart from a few line-hopping spares in the
current livery). ... So, the East London Line becomes
"The Tiger" (no "line"), and the trains, bridges and map line have tiger
appearance - the Chingford line becomes "The Giraffe", the
Romford-Upminster becomes "The Ladybird" etc.

<https://www.lothianbuses.com/news/2017/10/edinburgh-goes-wild-for-new-zoo-design-buses/>
I know children who say things like “look, it’s the lemur bus!”
Sam

I wasn't suggesting the trains have pictures of animal faces or body
shapes, but that the entire train be covered in zebra stripes etc.

Obviously not an option with LO, as the fleet is mostly shared between
routes. '

Shared over a week, but are there any shared diagrams? Is there any
downside to having mostly dedicated fleets with a few spares in
corporate livery?

Anglia have liveried trains for the Bittern line, East Suffolk line etc,
but I've only ever seen them on the wrong lines!

--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
2004 - 18 Monkeys On A Dead Man's Chest - David Thomas & Two Pale Boys

Sam Wilson

2021-04-08 12:16:03 UTC

Post by Basil Jet
My fantasy for a long time is for the Overground lines to be named after
animals with distinctive coats, and for nearly all of the LU stock to be
liveried like the animals (apart from a few line-hopping spares in the
current livery). ... So, the East London Line becomes
"The Tiger" (no "line"), and the trains, bridges and map line have tiger
appearance - the Chingford line becomes "The Giraffe", the
Romford-Upminster becomes "The Ladybird" etc.

<https://www.lothianbuses.com/news/2017/10/edinburgh-goes-wild-for-new-zoo-design-buses/>
I know children who say things like “look, it’s the lemur bus!”
Sam

I wasn't suggesting the trains have pictures of animal faces or body
shapes, but that the entire train be covered in zebra stripes etc.

Obviously not an option with LO, as the fleet is mostly shared between
routes. '

Shared over a week, but are there any shared diagrams? Is there any
downside to having mostly dedicated fleets with a few spares in
corporate livery?

I haven’t noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a
lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well
as on the indicator blinds.

Post by Basil Jet
Anglia have liveried trains for the Bittern line, East Suffolk line etc,
but I've only ever seen them on the wrong lines!

You could argue that the smaller open access operators do exactly that!

Sam

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Basil Jet

2021-04-08 12:56:46 UTC

Post by Recliner
Obviously not an option with LO, as the fleet is mostly shared between
routes. '

Shared over a week, but are there any shared diagrams? Is there any
downside to having mostly dedicated fleets with a few spares in
corporate livery?

I haven’t noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a
lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well
as on the indicator blinds.

London too... Route 13 springs to mind
Loading Image...

But at the end of the day, it comes down to how the LO diagrams are
operated. Does each service have dedicated diagrams? Do Chingford and
Enfield services share diagrams, for instance?

--
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M***@k8eqh_8z5is.tv

2021-04-08 14:53:45 UTC

On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 13:56:46 +0100

Post by Recliner
Obviously not an option with LO, as the fleet is mostly shared between
routes. '

Shared over a week, but are there any shared diagrams? Is there any
downside to having mostly dedicated fleets with a few spares in
corporate livery?

I havenât noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a
lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well
as on the indicator blinds.

London too... Route 13 springs to mind
http://www.showbus.co.uk/photos/jjd417d.JPG

That was a special service though. IIRC 13 was the only route left with
Routemasters on it. If however you're a bus company with multiple routes
and a general fleet of buses, painting specific route numbers on the sides
doesn't sound like the smartest idea for obvious reasons.

Graeme Wall

2021-04-08 17:07:28 UTC

Post by M***@k8eqh_8z5is.tv
On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 13:56:46 +0100

Post by Recliner
Obviously not an option with LO, as the fleet is mostly shared between
routes. '

Shared over a week, but are there any shared diagrams? Is there any
downside to having mostly dedicated fleets with a few spares in
corporate livery?

I haven’t noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a
lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well
as on the indicator blinds.

London too... Route 13 springs to mind
http://www.showbus.co.uk/photos/jjd417d.JPG

Quite a lot do it though.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Basil Jet

2021-04-08 19:40:50 UTC

Post by M***@k8eqh_8z5is.tv
On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 13:56:46 +0100

Post by Recliner
Obviously not an option with LO, as the fleet is mostly shared between
routes. '

Shared over a week, but are there any shared diagrams? Is there any
downside to having mostly dedicated fleets with a few spares in
corporate livery?

I haven’t noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a
lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well
as on the indicator blinds.

London too... Route 13 springs to mind
http://www.showbus.co.uk/photos/jjd417d.JPG

Quite a lot do it though.

Here's a Brighton one...
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8234987,-0.1428098,3a,37.5y,144.21h,83.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYCnK3qhcitEy3o5kJaXMbQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

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2021-04-08 20:44:34 UTC

Post by M***@k8eqh_8z5is.tv

Post by Sam Wilson
I haven’t noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a
lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well
as on the indicator blinds.

London too... Route 13 springs to mind
http://www.showbus.co.uk/photos/jjd417d.JPG

Quite a lot do it though.

Here's a Brighton one...

That's fair enough. The buses that do long-distance routes (the
Leeds-York-Malton-Scarborough/Whitby "Coastliner" is the one near me) tend
to be higher spec and more powerful for going further and faster, and
getting up hills (Whitwell Hill is the killer for buses on the A64), so they
have a dedicated fleet with specific livery. But the livery doesn't go down
to the level of separate paint jobs depending on whether the bus goes to
Whitby or Scarborough after Malton :-)

The Number 36 Ripon-Harrogate-Leeds buses are a specific livery with those
destinations painted on the side - but that's a fast and frequent service
with little extras like USB charging points and wifi (introduced long before
it became common even on local buses). (By rights, that bus should be the
reinstated Ripon railway service, but the 36 bus is so good that trains
could probably not compete on price, and *maybe* not on journey time, so the
line will probably never be re-opened now.)

Sam Wilson

2021-04-09 08:50:07 UTC

Post by M***@k8eqh_8z5is.tv
On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 13:56:46 +0100

Post by Recliner
Obviously not an option with LO, as the fleet is mostly shared between
routes. '

Shared over a week, but are there any shared diagrams? Is there any
downside to having mostly dedicated fleets with a few spares in
corporate livery?

I haven’t noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a
lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well
as on the indicator blinds.

London too... Route 13 springs to mind
http://www.showbus.co.uk/photos/jjd417d.JPG

Quite a lot do it though.

Here's a Brighton one...

And some Edinburgh ones:

<Loading Image...

>
<Loading Image...

>
<http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/0_edin_t/0_edinburgh_transport_buses_2005_bus_670_003100_1000.htm>
<https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-number-26-lothian-bus-on-princes-street-with-a-frog-advertising-104234367.html>
<Loading Image...

>

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

M***@s_yxm.biz

2021-04-09 08:33:20 UTC

On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:07:28 +0100

Post by M***@k8eqh_8z5is.tv
On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 13:56:46 +0100

Post by Recliner
Obviously not an option with LO, as the fleet is mostly shared between
routes. '

Shared over a week, but are there any shared diagrams? Is there any
downside to having mostly dedicated fleets with a few spares in
corporate livery?

I havenât noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a
lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well
as on the indicator blinds.

London too... Route 13 springs to mind
http://www.showbus.co.uk/photos/jjd417d.JPG

Quite a lot do it though.

Yes, I find it a bit odd tbh as it must limit vehicle flexibility
considerably.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

2021-04-09 11:37:02 UTC

Post by M***@s_yxm.biz
On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:07:28 +0100

Post by M***@k8eqh_8z5is.tv
On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 13:56:46 +0100

Post by Recliner
Obviously not an option with LO, as the fleet is mostly shared between
routes. '

Shared over a week, but are there any shared diagrams? Is there any
downside to having mostly dedicated fleets with a few spares in
corporate livery?

I haven’t noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a
lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well
as on the indicator blinds.

London too... Route 13 springs to mind
http://www.showbus.co.uk/photos/jjd417d.JPG

Quite a lot do it though.

Yes, I find it a bit odd tbh as it must limit vehicle flexibility
considerably.

It needs a handful of extra unbranded spare vehicles across a fleet, which
was obviously considered and costed when the first few companies began to
introduce it. It's obviously seen as a worthwhile expenditure for the
increased visual recognition of the buses and routes, not just among
passengers but among potential passengers, including those who don't
realise they're potential passengers yet.

In any case, it's not uncommon for different routes to have different
fleets in any case, even if they're not branded differently - eg in my area
the 'prime' pair of routes (direct to the city centre) have always had
newer vehicles than the routes which meander through less salubrious parts
of town on their way to the centre.

Not to mention different vehicle sizes - in the '90s Crosville Wales around
where I lived, had some routes operated by the small minibuses, some by
bigger minibuses, some by small full-size buses, some by bigger full-size
buses and finally the double decker routes.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Marland

2021-04-09 12:21:24 UTC

Post by M***@s_yxm.biz
On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:07:28 +0100

Post by M***@k8eqh_8z5is.tv
On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 13:56:46 +0100

Post by Recliner
Obviously not an option with LO, as the fleet is mostly shared between
routes. '

Shared over a week, but are there any shared diagrams? Is there any
downside to having mostly dedicated fleets with a few spares in
corporate livery?

I haven’t noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a
lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well
as on the indicator blinds.

London too... Route 13 springs to mind
http://www.showbus.co.uk/photos/jjd417d.JPG

Quite a lot do it though.

Yes, I find it a bit odd tbh as it must limit vehicle flexibility
considerably.

It needs a handful of extra unbranded spare vehicles across a fleet, which
was obviously considered and costed when the first few companies began to
introduce it. It's obviously seen as a worthwhile expenditure for the
increased visual recognition of the buses and routes, not just among
passengers but among potential passengers, including those who don't
realise they're potential passengers yet.
In any case, it's not uncommon for different routes to have different
fleets in any case, even if they're not branded differently - eg in my area
the 'prime' pair of routes (direct to the city centre) have always had
newer vehicles than the routes which meander through less salubrious parts
of town on their way to the centre.

As more operators purchase battery electric buses they seem to be
allocating them to specific routes which makes sense, it is the 21st
century version of what took place when buses replaced Trams or in some
cases Trolleybuses and for the operators of the latter another change a
decade or two later.

GH

M***@vv4gqtla5qeiunr2lq.eu

2021-04-09 13:41:39 UTC

On 9 Apr 2021 12:21:24 GMT

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
In any case, it's not uncommon for different routes to have different
fleets in any case, even if they're not branded differently - eg in my area
the 'prime' pair of routes (direct to the city centre) have always had
newer vehicles than the routes which meander through less salubrious parts
of town on their way to the centre.

As more operators purchase battery electric buses they seem to be
allocating them to specific routes which makes sense, it is the 21st

The flat routes presumably. I can't imagine many electric buses would last
long - in the sense of running time - in dales or hills even with regen
braking.

Post by Marland
century version of what took place when buses replaced Trams or in some
cases Trolleybuses and for the operators of the latter another change a
decade or two later.

I wouldn't be surprised if induction charging points end up being spread
around the countryside and perhaps some cities for electric buses in the
future, because with the best will in the world, battery tech for large
vehicles isn't up to the job yet on the longer distance routes. And I can't
imagine National Express have done much flicking through electric bus
brochures yet.

Recliner

2021-04-09 14:40:42 UTC

Post by M***@vv4gqtla5qeiunr2lq.eu
On 9 Apr 2021 12:21:24 GMT

As more operators purchase battery electric buses they seem to be
allocating them to specific routes which makes sense, it is the 21st

The flat routes presumably. I can't imagine many electric buses would last
long - in the sense of running time - in dales or hills even with regen
braking.

Post by Marland
century version of what took place when buses replaced Trams or in some
cases Trolleybuses and for the operators of the latter another change a
decade or two later.

It's claimed to have a 300km range, more than enough to run all day on
urban routes. It gets a four hour overnight charge in Willesden bus garage.

BYD designed and developed the 10.2m long vehicles to TfL specifications
which feature air conditioning, seats for 54 passengers and space for 27
standing passengers.

<https://www.metroline.co.uk/blog/progress/world’s-first-zero-emission-electric-double-decker>

Post by M***@vv4gqtla5qeiunr2lq.eu
And I can't
imagine National Express have done much flicking through electric bus
brochures yet.

No, not yet. They may have hydrogen-powered buses before battery electric
ones.

M***@cemgv9p2_ph8.ac.uk

2021-04-09 15:16:12 UTC

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 14:40:42 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@vv4gqtla5qeiunr2lq.eu
I wouldn't be surprised if induction charging points end up being spread
around the countryside and perhaps some cities for electric buses in the
future, because with the best will in the world, battery tech for large
vehicles isn't up to the job yet on the longer distance routes.

It's claimed to have a 300km range, more than enough to run all day on
urban routes. It gets a four hour overnight charge in Willesden bus garage.
BYD designed and developed the 10.2m long vehicles to TfL specifications
which feature air conditioning, seats for 54 passengers and space for 27
standing passengers.
<https://www.metroline.co.uk/blog/progress/worldâs-first-zero-emission-electr
ic-double-decker>

I suspect those ranges are just as optimistic as electric car ones. You can
probably halve it in slow traffic in winter when regen braking is ineffective
and the heating is on full blast.

Regardless, its pathetic the way the Chinese have just leapfrogged all the
european bus manufacturers who appear to have been caught with their pants
down.

Post by M***@vv4gqtla5qeiunr2lq.eu
And I can't
imagine National Express have done much flicking through electric bus
brochures yet.

No, not yet. They may have hydrogen-powered buses before battery electric
ones.

Hydrogen power is an enviromental dead end. I wish politicians would realise.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

2021-04-10 11:04:28 UTC

Post by M***@cemgv9p2_ph8.ac.uk
On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 14:40:42 -0000 (UTC)

It's claimed to have a 300km range, more than enough to run all day on
urban routes. It gets a four hour overnight charge in Willesden bus garage.
BYD designed and developed the 10.2m long vehicles to TfL specifications
which feature air conditioning, seats for 54 passengers and space for 27
standing passengers.
<https://www.metroline.co.uk/blog/progress/world’s-first-zero-emission-electr
ic-double-decker>

I suspect those ranges are just as optimistic as electric car ones.

Unfortunately that's the fault of the officially mandated tests, not the
manufacturers. The American official range figures tend to be much more
accurate.

Post by M***@cemgv9p2_ph8.ac.uk
You can
probably halve it in slow traffic

Actually IMX that's when EVs are at their most efficient.

Post by M***@cemgv9p2_ph8.ac.uk
in winter when regen braking is ineffective
and the heating is on full blast.

I will admit that during the recent spell of temperatures around 2°C to
-2°C, the range of my car was around half the predicted range, but another
factor played into that too - my daily commute ~halved to four miles,
meaning that the heating was on for the whole journey. On the days I
remembered to pre-heat the car, the energy consumption was much better (and
of course the windscreen was ready-defrosted!). Previously in such low
temperatures I've been driving further, and the impact of the low outside
temperature is much less noticeable.

Post by M***@cemgv9p2_ph8.ac.uk
Regardless, its pathetic the way the Chinese have just leapfrogged all the
european bus manufacturers who appear to have been caught with their pants
down.

Post by M***@vv4gqtla5qeiunr2lq.eu
And I can't
imagine National Express have done much flicking through electric bus
brochures yet.

No, not yet. They may have hydrogen-powered buses before battery electric
ones.

Hydrogen power is an enviromental dead end. I wish politicians would realise.

Surely that depends how the hydrogen is generated?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

M***@0f44e.tv

2021-04-10 14:34:53 UTC

On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:04:28 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@cemgv9p2_ph8.ac.uk
You can
probably halve it in slow traffic

Actually IMX that's when EVs are at their most efficient.

Most efficient *compared to combustion engines*. But if you drove an EV
down a road at a constant 30mph then drove it down the same road stopping
and starting every 100 metres or less the latter would waste far more power.

Post by M***@cemgv9p2_ph8.ac.uk
Hydrogen power is an enviromental dead end. I wish politicians would realise.

Surely that depends how the hydrogen is generated?

Well blue hydrogen is a non starter, but even green hydrogen is far less
efficient in wind turbine to wheel energy terms taking in every stage + the
vehicle itself than simply charging up a battery. Something like 50% for a
battery EV vs 30% for green H2 I remember reading. The only single advantage
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

Sam Wilson

2021-04-10 15:16:50 UTC

Post by M***@0f44e.tv
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:04:28 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@cemgv9p2_ph8.ac.uk
You can
probably halve it in slow traffic

Actually IMX that's when EVs are at their most efficient.

Post by M***@cemgv9p2_ph8.ac.uk
Hydrogen power is an enviromental dead end. I wish politicians would realise.

Surely that depends how the hydrogen is generated?

That’s a not inconsiderable advantage!

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

M***@3e6.co.uk

2021-04-10 15:32:14 UTC

On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@0f44e.tv
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

Thatâs a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.

The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there and short termist politicians
don't seem to be interested in providing it, merely exchanging like for like
with coal and gas gen replaced by wind farms so they can polish their green
halos.

Roland Perry

2021-04-10 15:37:15 UTC

Post by M***@3e6.co.uk
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@0f44e.tv
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

Thatâ€™s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.
The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

Post by M***@3e6.co.uk
and short termist politicians
don't seem to be interested in providing it, merely exchanging like for like
with coal and gas gen replaced by wind farms so they can polish their green
halos.

--
Roland Perry

Tweed

2021-04-10 17:02:47 UTC

Post by M***@3e6.co.uk
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@0f44e.tv
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

Thatâ€™s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.
The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

And even if the street lamp supply is upgraded it doesn’t address the issue
of the local thieves/yobbos cutting and nicking the charge cables or
sticking chewing gum up the works etc. We’ve enough trouble with catalytic
converters going awol as it is. Then you’ll have an entire claims industry
supporting folk who have “tripped” over a cable.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

2021-04-10 19:36:52 UTC

Post by M***@3e6.co.uk
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@0f44e.tv
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

Thatâ€™s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.
The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing
it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of
the world.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Graeme Wall

2021-04-10 20:41:43 UTC

Post by M***@3e6.co.uk
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@0f44e.tv
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

Thatâ€™s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.
The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing
it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of
the world.

Even assuming you can distribute enough power to make them function,
there aren't enough lamposts available for all the people who are likely
to want to use them.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

2021-04-10 21:50:29 UTC

Post by M***@3e6.co.uk
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@0f44e.tv
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

Thatâ€™s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.
The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing
it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of
the world.

Even assuming you can distribute enough power to make them function,
there aren't enough lamposts available for all the people who are likely
to want to use them.

So add some extra charging posts, like parking meters of old. There are
also charging points which recess flush into the pavement when not in use,
already available.

The alternative is to provide charging at the other places the car spends
most of its time. I've not had access to my charging socket at home for
around six months, and have survived quite happily charging at work or at
the supermarket. (Nb I'm not in any way claiming that'll work for everyone,
but I bet it would work for a lot of people)

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry

2021-04-11 05:32:59 UTC

Post by M***@3e6.co.uk
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@0f44e.tv
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

Thatâ€™s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.
The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing
it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of
the world.

I think you underestimate the scale of the project.

--
Roland Perry

Anna Noyd-Dryver

2021-04-11 08:17:30 UTC

Post by M***@3e6.co.uk
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@0f44e.tv
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

Thatâ€™s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.
The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing
it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of
the world.

I think you underestimate the scale of the project.

The various cable TV/internet companies, now all(?) under the Virgin
umbrella, laid new cable along the pavement of a decent proportion of the
country in the 1990s(?).

This time, for a start, only roads which people actually park along will
need to be covered. That rules out a good proportion of residential roads
which are sufficiently provided with off-street parking.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry

2021-04-11 08:31:21 UTC

Post by M***@3e6.co.uk
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@0f44e.tv
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

Thatâ€™s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.
The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing
it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of
the world.

I think you underestimate the scale of the project.

The various cable TV/internet companies, now all(?) under the Virgin
umbrella, laid new cable along the pavement of a decent proportion of the
country in the 1990s(?).

Just under the surface (and in many cases very poorly finished), power
cables have to be much deeper - 18" is typical.

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
This time, for a start, only roads which people actually park along will
need to be covered. That rules out a good proportion of residential roads
which are sufficiently provided with off-street parking.

You'd probably have to do all the ones which currently attract cars
parked on them. Which in a lot of places is pretty much all of them.

--
Roland Perry

Anna Noyd-Dryver

2021-04-11 08:53:02 UTC

Post by M***@3e6.co.uk
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@0f44e.tv
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

Thatâ€™s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.
The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing
it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of
the world.

I think you underestimate the scale of the project.

The various cable TV/internet companies, now all(?) under the Virgin
umbrella, laid new cable along the pavement of a decent proportion of the
country in the 1990s(?).

Just under the surface (and in many cases very poorly finished), power
cables have to be much deeper - 18" is typical.

You'd probably have to do all the ones which currently attract cars
parked on them. Which in a lot of places is pretty much all of them.

Rather than laying a whole new cable, can't the existing cable supplying
every house be used?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Graeme Wall

2021-04-11 09:15:18 UTC

Post by M***@3e6.co.uk
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@0f44e.tv
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

Thatâ€™s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.
The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing
it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of
the world.

I think you underestimate the scale of the project.

The various cable TV/internet companies, now all(?) under the Virgin
umbrella, laid new cable along the pavement of a decent proportion of the
country in the 1990s(?).

Just under the surface (and in many cases very poorly finished), power
cables have to be much deeper - 18" is typical.

You'd probably have to do all the ones which currently attract cars
parked on them. Which in a lot of places is pretty much all of them.

Rather than laying a whole new cable, can't the existing cable supplying
every house be used?

Not enough capacity and doesn't necessarily go where you think it would.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry

2021-04-11 10:46:30 UTC

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
Rather than laying a whole new cable, can't the existing cable
supplying every house be used?

Not enough capacity and doesn't necessarily go where you think it would.

I've lived in two village now where about half the houses are [still]
supplied by 240v wiring on poles, which looks a bit like phone cables,
unless you know better.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2021-04-11 10:44:42 UTC

Post by M***@3e6.co.uk
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@0f44e.tv
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

Thatâ€™s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.
The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing
it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of
the world.

I think you underestimate the scale of the project.

The various cable TV/internet companies, now all(?) under the Virgin
umbrella, laid new cable along the pavement of a decent proportion of the
country in the 1990s(?).

Just under the surface (and in many cases very poorly finished), power
cables have to be much deeper - 18" is typical.

You'd probably have to do all the ones which currently attract cars
parked on them. Which in a lot of places is pretty much all of them.

Rather than laying a whole new cable, can't the existing cable supplying
every house be used?

That's even deeper, and is typically about as thick as your arm and a
real pig to make connections to.

There's also the matter that it's likely to be sized for the number of
houses connected, and given than an EV on average doubles the household
consumption (that's long term average not instantaneous, so diversity
doesn't help here) it'll still overheat. [Of course, the same
consideration applies to "too many" households connecting to that cable
via their domestic supply and a fast charger for their off-street
parking]

National Grid has done serious studies into all of this and are quite
pessimistic about the capability to support more than 30% EV penetration
by 2030.

--
Roland Perry

Marland

2021-04-11 08:49:15 UTC

Post by M***@3e6.co.uk
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@0f44e.tv
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

Thatâ€™s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.
The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing
it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of
the world.

I think you underestimate the scale of the project.

To a large extent an ole is an ole, ok it may need to be bit larger for a
power cable of the size required
but when the area I was then living in got cabled for TV by NYNEX the most
memorable part of the disruption they caused was the bloody mess their
marker paints caused before hand, we thought there had been a major
graffiti attack till we twigged what the various pink etc blobs were for.
That was for what was basically an entertainment provider who felt the
investment would be worth while even though many properties to which they
ran the ducts did not take up the system.
Those ducts ISTR were about 25-30mm diameter so a power cable would not be
vastly different if it was direct burial though I accept it may need a more
prepared surround.
One sod who did not take up the system prised the cap off the duct that
terminated inside his fence
and disposed of his motor oil down it which was a bit mean.

If digging up the streets was done fairly effortlessly so that Punters can
watch re runs of “I Love Lucy” and the cultural delights of East Enders
shouting at each other then doing it again for arguably less frivolous
purposes should not be the obstacle you make it out to be.

Meanwhile the utility industry is quietly getting on with replacing old
Iron gas pipes with plastic as leaks as well as being hazardous also
contribute to green house gases even if unburnt.
There is a lot of experience out there in digging the ground.

GH

Graeme Wall

2021-04-11 09:19:22 UTC

Post by M***@3e6.co.uk
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@0f44e.tv
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

Thatâ€™s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.
The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing
it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of
the world.

I think you underestimate the scale of the project.

To a large extent an ole is an ole, ok it may need to be bit larger for a
power cable of the size required
but when the area I was then living in got cabled for TV by NYNEX the most
memorable part of the disruption they caused was the bloody mess their
marker paints caused before hand, we thought there had been a major
graffiti attack till we twigged what the various pink etc blobs were for.
That was for what was basically an entertainment provider who felt the
investment would be worth while even though many properties to which they
ran the ducts did not take up the system.
Those ducts ISTR were about 25-30mm diameter so a power cable would not be
vastly different if it was direct burial though I accept it may need a more
prepared surround.
One sod who did not take up the system prised the cap off the duct that
terminated inside his fence
and disposed of his motor oil down it which was a bit mean.
If digging up the streets was done fairly effortlessly so that Punters can
watch re runs of “I Love Lucy” and the cultural delights of East Enders
shouting at each other then doing it again for arguably less frivolous
purposes should not be the obstacle you make it out to be.
Meanwhile the utility industry is quietly getting on with replacing old
Iron gas pipes with plastic as leaks as well as being hazardous also
contribute to green house gases even if unburnt.
There is a lot of experience out there in digging the ground.

Digging the holes isn't the problem, it is supplying the electrons to go
down the cables and some method of getting the electrons from the hole
in the ground to the vehicle without causing a trip hazard and legal
bonanza.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Marland

2021-04-11 10:41:32 UTC

Post by Marland
If digging up the streets was done fairly effortlessly so that Punters can
watch re runs of “I Love Lucy” and the cultural delights of East Enders
shouting at each other then doing it again for arguably less frivolous
purposes should not be the obstacle you make it out to be.
Meanwhile the utility industry is quietly getting on with replacing old
Iron gas pipes with plastic as leaks as well as being hazardous also
contribute to green house gases even if unburnt.
There is a lot of experience out there in digging the ground.

The power supply problem I grant you is yet to be solved but it will be, at
least to keep those who are affluent enough to run personal transport the
size of a car doing so , ie make it expensive.
The rest may just end up in the situation we once had up the 1960’s when
car ownership was a dream for many and they had to use other means of
getting around.
To some extent a future non car owner will be better off than their
grandparents and have the choice of using an electric scooter or an
electrically assisted bicycle for many journeys whose power demand on the
grid will be far less and buy in transport for when they need a bigger
vehicle or make a longer journey wether that is a hire car or a taxi like
operation.

Even turning many 2 car households into a one car plus scooters and bikes
will make quite a distance.
Many younger people were already going this way anyway, car ownership is no
longer seen as a status point reached in life like it was for our
generation and assaulted by high accommodation costs plus the need if
sensible to start saving for a pension leaves little to run a car ,not
having one is no longer something to feel ashamed about ,the status symbol
object is the latest smartphone they can order an Uber on.

As for they trip hazard problem the most basic solution would be conduits
like slot drains that been used since victorian times to take water from
building downpipes to the gutter, theirs were cast Iron and many are still
in place but modern versions in other materials are available.
You then lay your cable in that .

This is one of the old style ones in Truro from the closed Hotel to the
gutter, there are thousands still in use around the country and people cope
with them.

Now you won’t what any old joe digging up the pavement as standards would
have to be maintained
so like dropped pavements for drives are now the local authorities would
either do the work or have an approved contractor the resident has to pay
for.

GH

Anna Noyd-Dryver

2021-04-11 10:56:04 UTC

Post by M***@3e6.co.uk
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@0f44e.tv
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

Thatâ€™s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.
The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

Streets and pavements are dug up often enough for other reasons, that doing
it again to upgrade the wiring/install a parallel circuit, isn't the end of
the world.

I think you underestimate the scale of the project.

To a large extent an ole is an ole, ok it may need to be bit larger for a
power cable of the size required
but when the area I was then living in got cabled for TV by NYNEX the most
memorable part of the disruption they caused was the bloody mess their
marker paints caused before hand, we thought there had been a major
graffiti attack till we twigged what the various pink etc blobs were for.
That was for what was basically an entertainment provider who felt the
investment would be worth while even though many properties to which they
ran the ducts did not take up the system.
Those ducts ISTR were about 25-30mm diameter so a power cable would not be
vastly different if it was direct burial though I accept it may need a more
prepared surround.
One sod who did not take up the system prised the cap off the duct that
terminated inside his fence
and disposed of his motor oil down it which was a bit mean.
If digging up the streets was done fairly effortlessly so that Punters can
watch re runs of “I Love Lucy” and the cultural delights of East Enders
shouting at each other then doing it again for arguably less frivolous
purposes should not be the obstacle you make it out to be.
Meanwhile the utility industry is quietly getting on with replacing old
Iron gas pipes with plastic as leaks as well as being hazardous also
contribute to green house gases even if unburnt.
There is a lot of experience out there in digging the ground.

Marked spaces and a kerbside supply post.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry

2021-04-11 10:48:03 UTC

Post by Marland
Meanwhile the utility industry is quietly getting on with replacing old
Iron gas pipes with plastic as leaks as well as being hazardous also
contribute to green house gases even if unburnt.
There is a lot of experience out there in digging the ground.

And having lived in an Edwardian suburb where they re-newed the gas
pipes, the effort required and disruption caused was extraordinary!

--
Roland Perry

Sam Wilson

2021-04-10 15:42:42 UTC

Post by M***@3e6.co.uk
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@0f44e.tv
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

That’s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.
The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there and short termist politicians
don't seem to be interested in providing it, merely exchanging like for like
with coal and gas gen replaced by wind farms so they can polish their green
halos.

That’s true. Maybe they’re thinking ahead to a time when we might have to
accept a change in lifestyle rather than trying to find “sustainable” ways
to maintain our current ones.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as ***@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

M***@at561zbsri.co.uk

2021-04-11 09:04:00 UTC

On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:42:42 -0000 (UTC)

power

Post by M***@3e6.co.uk
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there and short termist politicians
don't seem to be interested in providing it, merely exchanging like for like
with coal and gas gen replaced by wind farms so they can polish their green
halos.

Thatâs true. Maybe theyâre thinking ahead to a time when we might have to
accept a change in lifestyle rather than trying to find âsustainableâ ways
to maintain our current ones.

Even full lockdowns only led to a 7% reduction in CO2 so the sustainability
part is little to do with personal transport and a lot to do with home power
and manufacturing it would seem.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

2021-04-10 19:36:52 UTC

Post by M***@3e6.co.uk
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@0f44e.tv
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

That’s a not inconsiderable advantage!

I thought we were talking about buses, particularly long-distance coaches
eg National Express. The battery will have to be enough to last a whole day
(plus reserve). H2 would definitely have an advantage there.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Recliner

2021-04-10 15:31:50 UTC

Post by M***@0f44e.tv
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:04:28 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@cemgv9p2_ph8.ac.uk
You can
probably halve it in slow traffic

Actually IMX that's when EVs are at their most efficient.

Post by M***@cemgv9p2_ph8.ac.uk
Hydrogen power is an enviromental dead end. I wish politicians would realise.

Surely that depends how the hydrogen is generated?

Recharge time and capacity. It has a much higher energy density than
current and projected future batteries, unless there's a big step change
(possible at some stage, but not imminent). .

M***@rrrec0op05.eu

2021-04-10 15:36:05 UTC

On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:31:50 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@0f44e.tv
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:04:28 -0000 (UTC)
Well blue hydrogen is a non starter, but even green hydrogen is far less
efficient in wind turbine to wheel energy terms taking in every stage + the
vehicle itself than simply charging up a battery. Something like 50% for a
battery EV vs 30% for green H2 I remember reading. The only single advantage
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

Recharge time and capacity. It has a much higher energy density than
current and projected future batteries, unless there's a big step change
(possible at some stage, but not imminent). .

That matters for long distance lorries and buses for whom suitable batteries
would be a ridiculous size, but for cars its not even an issue right now,
never mind as technology advances. Yes, they're maybe half a ton heavier
than an equivalent ICE car at most, but the vehicle size is the same, if
not a bit smaller.

Recliner

2021-04-10 15:41:53 UTC

Post by M***@rrrec0op05.eu
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:31:50 -0000 (UTC)

Recharge time and capacity. It has a much higher energy density than
current and projected future batteries, unless there's a big step change
(possible at some stage, but not imminent). .

Which is why H2 is mainly being considered for larger, heavier vehicles:
trains, trucks, long distance buses, large SUVs, perhaps even short range
airliners. It's not needed nor viable for ordinary cars.

M***@kavkmjch2nseke.com

2021-04-11 09:01:43 UTC

On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:41:53 -0000 (UTC)

Post by M***@rrrec0op05.eu
That matters for long distance lorries and buses for whom suitable batteries
would be a ridiculous size, but for cars its not even an issue right now,
never mind as technology advances. Yes, they're maybe half a ton heavier
than an equivalent ICE car at most, but the vehicle size is the same, if
not a bit smaller.

trains, trucks, long distance buses, large SUVs, perhaps even short range
airliners. It's not needed nor viable for ordinary cars.

Hummer have already built 2 large battery SUVs. And H2 trains makes no
bloody sense whatsoever - just electric the damn lines and if its too
expensive for overhead then they should recind that moronic rule about
no more 3rd rail and lay that instead.

Recliner

2021-04-11 10:04:00 UTC

Post by M***@kavkmjch2nseke.com
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:41:53 -0000 (UTC)

trains, trucks, long distance buses, large SUVs, perhaps even short range
airliners. It's not needed nor viable for ordinary cars.

Hummer have already built 2 large battery SUVs.

By 'built', you mean announced. They're 2023 models, with lots of details
as yet unknown.

Post by M***@kavkmjch2nseke.com
And H2 trains makes no
bloody sense whatsoever - just electric the damn lines and if its too
expensive for overhead then they should recind that moronic rule about
no more 3rd rail and lay that instead.

<https://www.railtech.com/rolling-stock/2020/05/20/future-of-mobility-what-is-known-about-hydrogen-trains-in-germany/>

Anna Noyd-Dryver

2021-04-11 10:56:04 UTC

Post by M***@kavkmjch2nseke.com
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:41:53 -0000 (UTC)

trains, trucks, long distance buses, large SUVs, perhaps even short range
airliners. It's not needed nor viable for ordinary cars.

Health and Safety at Work Act, isn't it?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Graeme Wall

2021-04-10 15:57:42 UTC

Post by M***@rrrec0op05.eu
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:31:50 -0000 (UTC)

Recharge time and capacity. It has a much higher energy density than
current and projected future batteries, unless there's a big step change
(possible at some stage, but not imminent). .

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56678669>

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Certes

2021-04-10 17:16:03 UTC

Post by M***@rrrec0op05.eu
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:31:50 -0000 (UTC)

Recharge time and capacity. It has a much higher energy density than
current and projected future batteries, unless there's a big step change
(possible at some stage, but not imminent). .

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56678669>

[Re yellow lorry image, top] Is the trailer for the batteries?

Graeme Wall

2021-04-10 17:28:21 UTC

Post by M***@rrrec0op05.eu
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:31:50 -0000 (UTC)

Recharge time and capacity. It has a much higher energy density than
current and projected future batteries, unless there's a big step change
(possible at some stage, but not imminent). .

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56678669>

[Re yellow lorry image, top] Is the trailer for the batteries?

That was my thought!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Recliner

2021-04-10 21:08:24 UTC

Post by Certes

Post by M***@rrrec0op05.eu
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:31:50 -0000 (UTC)

Recharge time and capacity. It has a much higher energy density than
current and projected future batteries, unless there's a big step change
(possible at some stage, but not imminent). .

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56678669>

[Re yellow lorry image, top] Is the trailer for the batteries?

My assumption was that all the cargo was carried in the trailer, with the
lorry just hauling the batteries.

Certes

2021-04-10 22:13:59 UTC

Post by Certes

Post by M***@rrrec0op05.eu
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:31:50 -0000 (UTC)

Recharge time and capacity. It has a much higher energy density than
current and projected future batteries, unless there's a big step change
(possible at some stage, but not imminent). .

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56678669>

[Re yellow lorry image, top] Is the trailer for the batteries?

My assumption was that all the cargo was carried in the trailer, with the
lorry just hauling the batteries.

That would be more practical, insofar as having a goods vehicle that
carries around more mechanics than cargo could ever be practical.

Graeme Wall

2021-04-09 14:51:06 UTC

Post by M***@vv4gqtla5qeiunr2lq.eu
On 9 Apr 2021 12:21:24 GMT

As more operators purchase battery electric buses they seem to be
allocating them to specific routes which makes sense, it is the 21st

The flat routes presumably. I can't imagine many electric buses would last
long - in the sense of running time - in dales or hills even with regen
braking.

Work fine in Guildford.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

M***@zvxg1.co.uk

2021-04-09 15:10:01 UTC

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:51:06 +0100

Post by M***@vv4gqtla5qeiunr2lq.eu
On 9 Apr 2021 12:21:24 GMT

As more operators purchase battery electric buses they seem to be
allocating them to specific routes which makes sense, it is the 21st

The flat routes presumably. I can't imagine many electric buses would last
long - in the sense of running time - in dales or hills even with regen
braking.

Work fine in Guildford.

Guildford isn't exactly big.

Graeme Wall

2021-04-09 18:14:56 UTC

Post by M***@zvxg1.co.uk
On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:51:06 +0100

Post by M***@vv4gqtla5qeiunr2lq.eu
On 9 Apr 2021 12:21:24 GMT

As more operators purchase battery electric buses they seem to be
allocating them to specific routes which makes sense, it is the 21st

The flat routes presumably. I can't imagine many electric buses would last
long - in the sense of running time - in dales or hills even with regen
braking.

Work fine in Guildford.

Guildford isn't exactly big.

But it is hilly.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Marland

2021-04-09 20:16:02 UTC

Post by M***@zvxg1.co.uk
On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:51:06 +0100

Post by M***@vv4gqtla5qeiunr2lq.eu
On 9 Apr 2021 12:21:24 GMT

As more operators purchase battery electric buses they seem to be
allocating them to specific routes which makes sense, it is the 21st

The flat routes presumably. I can't imagine many electric buses would last
long - in the sense of running time - in dales or hills even with regen
braking.

Work fine in Guildford.

Guildford isn't exactly big.

For places like Guildford ,and there are many such provincial towns and
cities of similar size the
battery electric powered buses now being introduced are probably the first
time they have had the opportunity to have emission free at the point of
use public transport.
They were and are highly likely to remain too small to build tram ,light
rail and trolleybus systems.
A handful like Taunton had for a short time Edwardian era trams often on
a single route only a couple of miles long, they tended to be early
casualties and again using Taunton as an example its short line closed
after only 16 years of operation in 1921 when unable to agree on a price
for electricity with the corporation power supply found its cars stranded
when the supply was turned off, horses towed them back to the depot.
Many places like Exeter only ran one generation of tram closing in the
1930’s replacing with the now
reasonably developed motor bus. It was only the big places like London
,Leeds, Sheffield ,Glasgow
that could afford to stay with electric power and replace the first
generation of vehicles .
The Guildfords, Salisburys and Chichesters have been using noisy polluting
vehicles for a 100 years now, its time they got some clean ones. The effect
in such places of battery buses may be more marked than in bigger
conurbations.

GH

Graeme Wall

2021-04-09 21:13:01 UTC

Post by M***@zvxg1.co.uk
On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:51:06 +0100

Post by M***@vv4gqtla5qeiunr2lq.eu
On 9 Apr 2021 12:21:24 GMT

As more operators purchase battery electric buses they seem to be
allocating them to specific routes which makes sense, it is the 21st

The flat routes presumably. I can't imagine many electric buses would last
long - in the sense of running time - in dales or hills even with regen
braking.

Work fine in Guildford.

Guildford isn't exactly big.

Unfortunately it's only a fleet of 9 buses in Guildford at the moment,
theoretically dedicated to serving the 4 park and rides. However one of
the car parks has been doing duty as a drive in Covid testing station
for the last year so the electric buses are making guest appearances on
the university services. Good for me as they pass the end of my road on
their way into town.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

M***@7q74_.info

2021-04-09 13:37:54 UTC

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 11:37:02 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Anna Noyd-Dryver
It needs a handful of extra unbranded spare vehicles across a fleet, which
was obviously considered and costed when the first few companies began to
introduce it. It's obviously seen as a worthwhile expenditure for the
increased visual recognition of the buses and routes, not just among
passengers but among potential passengers, including those who don't
realise they're potential passengers yet.

I can't imagine too many people see a bus and think "Ooh, nice branding, I
must travel on it sometime!". Though I will grant you if its one of the ones
that has the route map down the side there may be some people who didn't
realise where it went and may use it in future.

Basil Jet

2021-04-09 20:08:46 UTC

Post by M***@7q74_.info
On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 11:37:02 -0000 (UTC)

Coming back on topic, that's why I want every bridge on the NLL to have
one livery, every bridge on the Goblin to have a different one etc, so
that people who drive every day from Leytonstone to Crouch End would
realise that there is one train all the way.

--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
1978 - Another Music In A Different Kitchen - Buzzcocks

Anna Noyd-Dryver

2021-04-10 08:53:03 UTC

Post by M***@7q74_.info
On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 11:37:02 -0000 (UTC)

I'm thinking of people who regularly drive a route and see lots of buses,
but without paying enough attention to the route/destination displayed on
them to realise that they're the same route; who may see the consistency of
route branding and suddenly realise that their journey is possible by bus
having never considered it before.

As a real-world example; despite having a higher than average interest in
buses, I didn't realise there was a bus 2 or 3 times an hour between
Bristol and Wells, until I started using a garage part way along the route;
the "Mendip Explorer" buses are very smart
<https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/mendip-bus-route-named-one-1624469>
and I can imagine someone who drives that route regularly in a car, seeing
the consistently branded buses and making a connection; then on a day when
their car is unavailable (in for service, or perhaps their partner is using
it) and they still want to make the journey, suddenly the bus is in their
mind as an option, where without the branding it may not have been.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry

2021-04-10 09:52:07 UTC

Post by M***@7q74_.info

Yesterday, many of the Stagecoach Cambridge-Ely buses were a vivid shade
of turquoise that I don't remember seeing before, and completely without
branding.

--
Roland Perry

Anna Noyd-Dryver

2021-04-09 05:15:03 UTC

Post by M***@k8eqh_8z5is.tv
On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 13:56:46 +0100

Post by Recliner
Obviously not an option with LO, as the fleet is mostly shared between
routes. '

Shared over a week, but are there any shared diagrams? Is there any
downside to having mostly dedicated fleets with a few spares in
corporate livery?

I haven’t noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a
lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well
as on the indicator blinds.

London too... Route 13 springs to mind
http://www.showbus.co.uk/photos/jjd417d.JPG

And yet it's not uncommon.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Graeme Wall

2021-04-08 17:06:32 UTC

Post by Basil Jet
My fantasy for a long time is for the Overground lines to be named after
animals with distinctive coats, and for nearly all of the LU stock to be
liveried like the animals (apart from a few line-hopping spares in the
current livery). ... So, the East London Line becomes
"The Tiger" (no "line"), and the trains, bridges and map line have tiger
appearance - the Chingford line becomes "The Giraffe", the
Romford-Upminster becomes "The Ladybird" etc.

<https://www.lothianbuses.com/news/2017/10/edinburgh-goes-wild-for-new-zoo-design-buses/>
I know children who say things like “look, it’s the lemur bus!”
Sam

I wasn't suggesting the trains have pictures of animal faces or body
shapes, but that the entire train be covered in zebra stripes etc.

Obviously not an option with LO, as the fleet is mostly shared between
routes. '

Shared over a week, but are there any shared diagrams? Is there any
downside to having mostly dedicated fleets with a few spares in
corporate livery?

I haven’t noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a
lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well
as on the indicator blinds.

Reading buses go in for different liveries for different routes.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

2021-04-08 20:35:31 UTC

Post by Graeme Wall
Reading buses go in for different liveries for different routes.

Some said that at one time the York Park&Ride buses used have different
liveries for the different routes, depending on which P&R car-park they went
to/from. But by the time I used them, they were a standard livery - the same
as the non-P&R buses (*) - and distinguished only by the LED display with
the number and the route name (I think it alternated between the colour-name
of the route and the name of the car-park).

What is always amusing is if a bus company has temporarily borrowed a few
buses from another company: there's something a bit weird getting on a bus
in York which has bus-company or place-of-interest adverts for Sheffield or
Leeds. I think the furthest afield was one that was from the Exeter area.
That's a hell of a long way to transport a bus that you've borrowed ;-)

(*) It's a shame there wasn't a different livery that was common for all P&R
buses (irrespective of route) so you could distinguish "your" bus from other
routes that happened to use the same bus-stop in town. It would everyone
standing up in anticipation, only to realise that it's the wrong bus as it
gets close enough to read the LED sign.

Christopher A. Lee

2021-04-08 23:56:33 UTC

Post by NY

Post by Graeme Wall
Reading buses go in for different liveries for different routes.

When I lived im Manchester, we had Pacers which were withrawn from
Cornwall because the curves were too tigh. These still had Cornish ads
and wers till painted chocolate and cream )their only redeeming
feature).

We also had ex- Glasgoe Class 303 units, still painted in Strathclyde
livery, with Glasgow adverts and maps.

Charles Ellson

2021-04-09 22:46:02 UTC

On Thu, 08 Apr 2021 18:56:33 -0500, Christopher A. Lee

Post by NY

Post by Graeme Wall
Reading buses go in for different liveries for different routes.

When I lived im Manchester, we had Pacers which were withrawn from
Cornwall because the curves were too tigh. These still had Cornish ads
and wers till painted chocolate and cream )their only redeeming
feature).
We also had ex- Glasgoe Class 303 units, still painted in Strathclyde
livery, with Glasgow adverts and maps.

The company down the road from me which used to supply school-sports
ground transport to Harrow never bothered to remove any of the adverts
from its buses resulting in several of them bimbling around
advertising various things in Crosville-land.

Marland

2021-04-09 00:36:48 UTC

Post by NY

Post by Graeme Wall
Reading buses go in for different liveries for different routes.

Quite a long time ago now after the break up and privatisation of the
National Bus Company one
of the smaller operations created was the North Devon operation branded as
Red Bus, an unusual
colour for the area which had long been a bastion of Southern and Western
National green.
Till they were repainted the buses as well as having the name Red Bus
applied on a white patch carried labels stating “This is now a Red Bus”
which at least gave the new operation a little publicity in the area,
however sometime later I saw one of the vehicles still in green either
transferred or loaned
to Hampshire bus on an Andover to Basingstoke service still carrying
adverts for Devon businesses
and also the “This is now a Red Bus” stickers. Gawd knows many
stereotype opinions of people in the Southwest being country bumpkins were
reinforced in observers.

Going further back than I can remember during WW2 Bournemouth Corporation
Trolleybuses
were loaned to London Transport and their Primrose Yellow livery must have
made quite a contrast to the usual in Ilford where they were based as with
less seats than London Trolleys that area was quieter.
They returned home when a batch of trolleys destined for South Africa were
allocated to London , this required a change in UK construction and rules
as they were 6 inches wider than and heavier than what was allowed on UK
buses at the time they also went to Ilford as it was felt the streets were
generally wider than those of central London , The change was permanent and
post war buses were wider than their older brethren so drivers soon had to
cope everywhere.

The South Africans got a new batch postwar and London held onto the
originals,they were regarded as quite luxurious as they retained tinted and
opening windows for a climate they never saw though once it was obvious
they were never going the front entrance doors temporarily covered were
removed fully.

The South African design influenced the Londons last batch of Trolleys post
war the Q1 model which apart from minor details was also used by Glasgow
and Newcastle.

GH

Marland

2021-04-08 21:45:26 UTC

Reading buses go in for different liveries for different routes.

That was used by some Edwardian Tram operators as in the 1900’s people were
less literate than they are now, Glasgow was one of the larger operators to
use the method and augmented the livery
by having an appropriates coloured lamp shining forward which you
probably could not do on a bus
due to C+U regulations ruling out Red shining forward. The system ceased
to be used from 1938.
On such a large Network there had to be duplication.
Someone has patiently created a LU style map of the routes.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/kaputniq/46734214652/

The use of the number within the livery seems quite widespread where an
operator runs a route it wishes to set apart from the tour around the
suburbs operations such as the various X for express services around the
country, sometimes with a line map of the stops served.
Occasionally they have a really dedicated colour livery as well
,Stagecoach favour Gold for many such services.

First operate some routes with a dedicated route livery such as between
Poole and Exeter with scenic X53 Jurassic Coast service., this year they
are delivering new vehicles to the service in a dedicated livery so they
must still see some merit in such branding.

https://twitter.com/firstdorset/status/1336263208940793856

First pulled out of much of Devon a few years ago now leaving StageCoach to
resurrect some routes.

This meant that fast bus service between Exeter and Bude which was
deliberately branded as the Atlantic Coast Express in homage to the train
of that name parts of which ran that way lost the name.

https://www.focustransport.org/2012/03/stagecoach-to-buy-first-north-devon.html

Are there any other bus services that use or used a former train service
name.

GH

Anna Noyd-Dryver

2021-04-09 05:15:04 UTC

Post by Basil Jet
My fantasy for a long time is for the Overground lines to be named after
animals with distinctive coats, and for nearly all of the LU stock to be
liveried like the animals (apart from a few line-hopping spares in the
current livery). ... So, the East London Line becomes
"The Tiger" (no "line"), and the trains, bridges and map line have tiger
appearance - the Chingford line becomes "The Giraffe", the
Romford-Upminster becomes "The Ladybird" etc.

<https://www.lothianbuses.com/news/2017/10/edinburgh-goes-wild-for-new-zoo-design-buses/>
I know children who say things like “look, it’s the lemur bus!”
Sam

I wasn't suggesting the trains have pictures of animal faces or body
shapes, but that the entire train be covered in zebra stripes etc.

Obviously not an option with LO, as the fleet is mostly shared between
routes. '

Shared over a week, but are there any shared diagrams? Is there any
downside to having mostly dedicated fleets with a few spares in
corporate livery?

I haven’t noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a
lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well
as on the indicator blinds.

Reading buses go in for different liveries for different routes.

As do First in Bristol, though some are shared between routes which have
significant sections in common (eg 1/2 and 3/4). More recently they've
changed some route liveries to be more generic 'north/south of city
routes'.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Graeme Wall

2021-04-09 06:40:18 UTC

Post by Basil Jet
My fantasy for a long time is for the Overground lines to be named after
animals with distinctive coats, and for nearly all of the LU stock to be
liveried like the animals (apart from a few line-hopping spares in the
current livery). ... So, the East London Line becomes
"The Tiger" (no "line"), and the trains, bridges and map line have tiger
appearance - the Chingford line becomes "The Giraffe", the
Romford-Upminster becomes "The Ladybird" etc.

<https://www.lothianbuses.com/news/2017/10/edinburgh-goes-wild-for-new-zoo-design-buses/>
I know children who say things like “look, it’s the lemur bus!”
Sam

I wasn't suggesting the trains have pictures of animal faces or body
shapes, but that the entire train be covered in zebra stripes etc.

Obviously not an option with LO, as the fleet is mostly shared between
routes. '

Shared over a week, but are there any shared diagrams? Is there any
downside to having mostly dedicated fleets with a few spares in
corporate livery?

I haven’t noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a
lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well
as on the indicator blinds.

Reading buses go in for different liveries for different routes.

The classic use of different colours for different routes is in Buenos
Aires where each of over 100 different routes has its own colour scheme.
Originally the buses were all operated by owner-drivers and each driver
belonged to a cooperative that had the licence to operate one route.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roger Lynn

2021-04-08 22:20:42 UTC

Stagecoach do that a lot (at least in some areas). At weekends it's common
to see buses on the wrong routes.

Christopher A. Lee

2021-04-09 13:01:36 UTC

I havent noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a
lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well
as on the indicator blinds.

Stagecoach do that a lot (at least in some areas). At weekends it's common
to see buses on the wrong routes.

Back when it was still all London Transport, did red buses ever appear
on green (country) routes or vice versa, where the two systems
overlapped?

Charles Ellson

2021-04-09 22:50:21 UTC

On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 08:01:36 -0500, Christopher A. Lee

I havent noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a
lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well
as on the indicator blinds.

Stagecoach do that a lot (at least in some areas). At weekends it's common
to see buses on the wrong routes.

Back when it was still all London Transport, did red buses ever appear
on green (country) routes or vice versa, where the two systems
overlapped?

They used to turn up if there wasn't one of the right colour available
due to accidents, overhauls etc. although RLH low height buses seemed
to never get a repaint from green when permanently transferred to the
230 route around Harrow.

Christopher A. Lee

2021-04-10 01:08:22 UTC

On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 23:50:21 +0100, Charles Ellson

Post by Charles Ellson
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 08:01:36 -0500, Christopher A. Lee

I havent noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a
lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well
as on the indicator blinds.

Stagecoach do that a lot (at least in some areas). At weekends it's common
to see buses on the wrong routes.

Back when it was still all London Transport, did red buses ever appear
on green (country) routes or vice versa, where the two systems
overlapped?

The RLH buses I remember on the 230 were all red. I grew up in Harrow
and don't remember seeing any in green.

Charles Ellson

2021-04-10 17:57:23 UTC

On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 20:08:22 -0500, Christopher A. Lee

Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 23:50:21 +0100, Charles Ellson

Post by Charles Ellson
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 08:01:36 -0500, Christopher A. Lee

I havent noticed it so much recently, but Edinburgh used to have quite a
lot of dedicated buses with the route number included in the livery as well
as on the indicator blinds.

Stagecoach do that a lot (at least in some areas). At weekends it's common
to see buses on the wrong routes.

Back when it was still all London Transport, did red buses ever appear
on green (country) routes or vice versa, where the two systems
overlapped?

The RLH buses I remember on the 230 were all red. I grew up in Harrow
and don't remember seeing any in green.

Not often and mainly in the last few years before it mutated into the
H1. There wasn't usually more than one at a time.
There are some photographs of RLH27, e.g.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/megaanorak/8590545356
but the trouble with that bus IIRC is that by the time the 230 ceased
it had already gone into private ownership and some photographs of it
on the 230 are actually of it driving around the route on the first
day of the new route taking over.

Certes

2021-04-09 09:41:22 UTC

A different colour outline too, so those in the know could spot their
orange 29 coming amongst a herd of pink 22s. I expect the reduction in
flexibility made it inefficient, so they were all repainted in maroon.

Roland Perry

2021-04-08 12:58:05 UTC

Post by Basil Jet
Anglia have liveried trains for the Bittern line, East Suffolk line
etc, but I've only ever seen them on the wrong lines!

Odd you should mention that... this morning one of the Fen Line GN
trains was liveried "Gatwick Express". Which more different to the plain
livery than the straying GA Stansted Express ones (which are at least
the correct side of the river).

EMR appear to gave given up re-liverying the ex Stagecoach 158's on the
Liverpool-Norwich route - there's still only one that I see (and that
mainly at weekends).

Slightly OT: Stagecoach buses on the Cambridge-Ely routes (A10 direct,
and via Newmarket) have for last year been a mixture of regular ones,
and various separately-liveried Cambridge P&R.

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2021-04-10 15:37:15 UTC

Post by Basil Jet
Anglia have liveried trains for the Bittern line, East Suffolk line
etc, but I've only ever seen them on the wrong lines!

Apparently six GatEx 387s have been loaned to GN as temporary 365
replacements. In the medium term, the GA 379s or the cw2c 387s are the more
likely replacements.

Roland Perry

2021-04-11 05:44:08 UTC

Post by Basil Jet
Anglia have liveried trains for the Bittern line, East Suffolk line
etc, but I've only ever seen them on the wrong lines!

Apparently six GatEx 387s have been loaned to GN as temporary 365
replacements.

They are having shuffle, then, because we've not seen 365s on the Fen
line for a couple of years. AIUI they are only used in peak periods to
Peterborough. But with a reduced timetable (now coming to an end)
there'd be less demand for those, so must have sent at least one 387 up
to Kings Lynn and back.

But not for the first time, apparently, here's a similarly liveried (not
the bright Orange version) last August:

<https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnfrombedford/50252872032/>

Post by Recliner
In the medium term, the GA 379s or the cw2c 387s are the more likely
replacements.

--
Roland Perry

Marland

2021-04-08 08:24:19 UTC

Post by Basil Jet
My fantasy for a long time is for the Overground lines to be named after
animals with distinctive coats,
Romford-Upminster becomes "The Ladybird" etc.
This would actually turn the LO into a tourist attraction, with people
heading out to Romford just to see the Ladybird train.

The I.O.W got there first. Such things date very quickly.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/britishrail1980sand1990s/30918342656

GH

Basil Jet

2021-04-08 10:47:23 UTC

The I.O.W got there first. Such things date very quickly.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/britishrail1980sand1990s/30918342656

They were tacky and childish. I don't think an entire train in giraffe
patches would look bad.

--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
2004 - 18 Monkeys On A Dead Man's Chest - David Thomas & Two Pale Boys

Anna Noyd-Dryver

2021-04-09 06:47:38 UTC