Discussion:
Front-boarding only for BBs
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Recliner
2020-01-10 23:17:07 UTC
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Passengers using London's New Routemaster buses will only be able to board
them using the front door in future, transport bosses have said.

The vehicles were originally designed to allow people to enter through
doors in the rear, middle or at the front.

But a Transport for London (TfL) pilot on one route showed fare evasion
rates were twice as high on New Routemasters compared to other buses.

The change will be introduced on the first buses on 25 January.



A test carried out by TfL last year where passengers could only board New
Routemasters on route 8 using the front door led to evasion rates being
more than halved.

As a result, the transport body estimates more than £3.6m is lost each year
through people not paying fares on New Routemasters, compared to other
front-boarding only buses.

The pilot was also found not to affect how long it took for people to board
the vehicles, as well as helping people with accessibility needs who were
still able to use the middle doors while not having to compete with other
passengers as previously occurred.

Director of bus operations Claire Mann described fare dodging as "criminal
and unfair".

"Our successful pilot on the route 8 has shown that boarding using the
front door only doesn't delay the service and reduces fare evasion, so we
will change all other New Routemasters to follow suit," she said.

From
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51062969>
Roland Perry
2020-01-11 08:20:26 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Director of bus operations Claire Mann described fare dodging as "criminal
and unfair".
As is perhaps the foisting of the new design of bus on the public,
with promises of benefits which were ultimately shown to be false, and
disbenefits we weren't warned about.

[Hmm... promises, sides of buses, what does that remind us of]
Post by Recliner
"Our successful pilot on the route 8 has shown that boarding using the
front door only
reads much better with a comma here
Post by Recliner
doesn't delay the service and reduces fare evasion, so we
will change all other New Routemasters to follow suit," she said.
--
Roland Perry
Richard J.
2020-01-11 10:47:46 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Director of bus operations Claire Mann described fare dodging as "criminal
and unfair".
As is perhaps the foisting of the new design of bus on the public,
with promises of benefits which were ultimately shown to be false, and
disbenefits we weren't warned about.
[Hmm... promises, sides of buses, what does that remind us of]
Post by Recliner
"Our successful pilot on the route 8 has shown that boarding using the
front door only
reads much better with a comma here
I see what you mean, but putting an unpaired comma between the subject and the verb is illiterate. The problem is caused by the position of the word "only", and can be solved by rewording it as "... boarding using only the front door doesn't delay ...".
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
doesn't delay the service and reduces fare evasion, so we
will change all other New Routemasters to follow suit," she said.
Are they going to make the staircases one way? (Up at the front and down at the back) That would finally make a justification for having more than one staircase.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)
Recliner
2020-01-11 11:07:52 UTC
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Post by Richard J.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Director of bus operations Claire Mann described fare dodging as "criminal
and unfair".
As is perhaps the foisting of the new design of bus on the public,
with promises of benefits which were ultimately shown to be false, and
disbenefits we weren't warned about.
[Hmm... promises, sides of buses, what does that remind us of]
Post by Recliner
"Our successful pilot on the route 8 has shown that boarding using the
front door only
reads much better with a comma here
I see what you mean, but putting an unpaired comma between the subject
and the verb is illiterate. The problem is caused by the position of the
word "only", and can be solved by rewording it as "... boarding using
only the front door doesn't delay ...".
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
doesn't delay the service and reduces fare evasion, so we
will change all other New Routemasters to follow suit," she said.
Are they going to make the staircases one way? (Up at the front and down
at the back) That would finally make a justification for having more than one staircase.
No need for that.

In practice, the front stairs will remain two-way, as in other deckers, and
the rears will become down-only, for exiting via the rear-door. The front
stairs are ideal for exiting via the middle door.
Recliner
2020-01-11 10:48:12 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Director of bus operations Claire Mann described fare dodging as "criminal
and unfair".
As is perhaps the foisting of the new design of bus on the public,
with promises of benefits which were ultimately shown to be false, and
disbenefits we weren't warned about.
[Hmm... promises, sides of buses, what does that remind us of]
Indeed so.

Incidentally, have we heard any more about Boris's claimed hobby of
painting wooden 6-bottle wine boxes to look like double-decker buses? He
probably gets through quite a few red wine boxes, so his fleet of painted
model buses must by now be impressively large. I wonder where he garages
it? Where did he keep them when he was so recently homeless, apparently
living in his scruffy old car? [He must be the first PM who needed the job
for its tied accommodation, the flat above the office and the country
cottage.]
MissRiaElaine
2020-01-11 16:38:56 UTC
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It's all academic as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to travel on these
monstrosities, they are an insult to the traditional Routemaster that
served London so well for so long.
--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]
Recliner
2020-01-11 17:04:13 UTC
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Post by MissRiaElaine
It's all academic as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to travel on these
monstrosities, they are an insult to the traditional Routemaster that
served London so well for so long.
Presumably it's not hard to avoid them, given that you live in Aberdeen?
MissRiaElaine
2020-01-11 18:22:10 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by MissRiaElaine
It's all academic as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to travel on these
monstrosities, they are an insult to the traditional Routemaster that
served London so well for so long.
Presumably it's not hard to avoid them, given that you live in Aberdeen?
I spend quite a lot of time in London actually, there are flights all
the time :-)
--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]
Marland
2020-01-11 19:49:32 UTC
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Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Recliner
Post by MissRiaElaine
It's all academic as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to travel on these
monstrosities, they are an insult to the traditional Routemaster that
served London so well for so long.
Presumably it's not hard to avoid them, given that you live in Aberdeen?
I spend quite a lot of time in London actually, there are flights all
the time :-)
Not with Vickers Viscounts though, how do you force yourself on to
something more modern.

GH
MissRiaElaine
2020-01-11 23:45:07 UTC
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Post by Marland
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Recliner
Post by MissRiaElaine
It's all academic as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to travel on these
monstrosities, they are an insult to the traditional Routemaster that
served London so well for so long.
Presumably it's not hard to avoid them, given that you live in Aberdeen?
I spend quite a lot of time in London actually, there are flights all
the time :-)
Not with Vickers Viscounts though, how do you force yourself on to
something more modern.
I'm not *that* old..!
--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]
Recliner
2020-01-11 23:52:34 UTC
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Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Marland
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Recliner
Post by MissRiaElaine
It's all academic as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to travel on these
monstrosities, they are an insult to the traditional Routemaster that
served London so well for so long.
Presumably it's not hard to avoid them, given that you live in Aberdeen?
I spend quite a lot of time in London actually, there are flights all
the time :-)
Not with Vickers Viscounts though, how do you force yourself on to
something more modern.
I'm not *that* old..!
Yes you are. Vickers Viscounts are absolutely from your favoured period.
You seem to disapprove of anything newer.
Marland
2020-01-12 01:39:42 UTC
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Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Marland
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Recliner
Post by MissRiaElaine
It's all academic as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to travel on these
monstrosities, they are an insult to the traditional Routemaster that
served London so well for so long.
Presumably it's not hard to avoid them, given that you live in Aberdeen?
I spend quite a lot of time in London actually, there are flights all
the time :-)
Not with Vickers Viscounts though, how do you force yourself on to
something more modern.
I'm not *that* old..!
British Airways were still operating a few Viscounts into the early 80’s ,
if you can remember Routemasters you should remember Viscounts.
Or are you younger than your writings make you appear and your stint on
London Transport came at the end of the Routemasters reign and the glory
days you remember are really based on the memories of older work colleagues
rather than you own though you would have loved to have been there
earlier.

Reminds me a bit of the writings on his railway career by Adrian Vaughan
who as a young person caught the end of the era of the old ways of workings
with much older colleagues and then has spent a good part of the rest of
his life giving the impression he was a little disappointed that things
moved on before he was able to emulate them .

GH
Recliner
2020-01-12 02:03:24 UTC
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Post by Marland
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Marland
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Recliner
Post by MissRiaElaine
It's all academic as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to travel on these
monstrosities, they are an insult to the traditional Routemaster that
served London so well for so long.
Presumably it's not hard to avoid them, given that you live in Aberdeen?
I spend quite a lot of time in London actually, there are flights all
the time :-)
Not with Vickers Viscounts though, how do you force yourself on to
something more modern.
I'm not *that* old..!
British Airways were still operating a few Viscounts into the early 80’s ,
if you can remember Routemasters you should remember Viscounts.
Or are you younger than your writings make you appear and your stint on
London Transport came at the end of the Routemasters reign and the glory
days you remember are really based on the memories of older work colleagues
rather than you own though you would have loved to have been there
earlier.
Reminds me a bit of the writings on his railway career by Adrian Vaughan
who as a young person caught the end of the era of the old ways of workings
with much older colleagues and then has spent a good part of the rest of
his life giving the impression he was a little disappointed that things
moved on before he was able to emulate them .
I flew to Aberdeen by BEA Viscount in 1970, which is about the date Ria
wishes all technological progress had stopped, when she was 16.
Trolleybus
2020-01-12 11:36:24 UTC
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On Sun, 12 Jan 2020 02:03:24 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Marland
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Recliner
Post by MissRiaElaine
It's all academic as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to travel on these
monstrosities, they are an insult to the traditional Routemaster that
served London so well for so long.
Presumably it's not hard to avoid them, given that you live in Aberdeen?
I spend quite a lot of time in London actually, there are flights all
the time :-)
Not with Vickers Viscounts though, how do you force yourself on to
something more modern.
I'm not *that* old..!
British Airways were still operating a few Viscounts into the early 80’s ,
if you can remember Routemasters you should remember Viscounts.
Or are you younger than your writings make you appear and your stint on
London Transport came at the end of the Routemasters reign and the glory
days you remember are really based on the memories of older work colleagues
rather than you own though you would have loved to have been there
earlier.
Reminds me a bit of the writings on his railway career by Adrian Vaughan
who as a young person caught the end of the era of the old ways of workings
with much older colleagues and then has spent a good part of the rest of
his life giving the impression he was a little disappointed that things
moved on before he was able to emulate them .
I flew to Aberdeen by BEA Viscount in 1970, which is about the date Ria
wishes all technological progress had stopped, when she was 16.
MY first ever flight was on a Viscount operated by Southern Air (I
think as a wet-lease to DanAir) from Gatwick to Orly. This was in
1979. My first few business flights were on British Midland Viscounts
from LHR to Teeside not long after that. So they certainly flew into
the 1980s. My main memory of them is that the overhead luggage racks
had no doors, they were just open, like on a train.

ObRailway: I used Teeside Airport station for my onward journey to
Redcar.
Recliner
2020-01-12 11:49:51 UTC
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Post by Trolleybus
On Sun, 12 Jan 2020 02:03:24 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Marland
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Recliner
Post by MissRiaElaine
It's all academic as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to travel on these
monstrosities, they are an insult to the traditional Routemaster that
served London so well for so long.
Presumably it's not hard to avoid them, given that you live in Aberdeen?
I spend quite a lot of time in London actually, there are flights all
the time :-)
Not with Vickers Viscounts though, how do you force yourself on to
something more modern.
I'm not *that* old..!
British Airways were still operating a few Viscounts into the early 80’s ,
if you can remember Routemasters you should remember Viscounts.
Or are you younger than your writings make you appear and your stint on
London Transport came at the end of the Routemasters reign and the glory
days you remember are really based on the memories of older work colleagues
rather than you own though you would have loved to have been there
earlier.
Reminds me a bit of the writings on his railway career by Adrian Vaughan
who as a young person caught the end of the era of the old ways of workings
with much older colleagues and then has spent a good part of the rest of
his life giving the impression he was a little disappointed that things
moved on before he was able to emulate them .
I flew to Aberdeen by BEA Viscount in 1970, which is about the date Ria
wishes all technological progress had stopped, when she was 16.
MY first ever flight was on a Viscount operated by Southern Air (I
think as a wet-lease to DanAir) from Gatwick to Orly. This was in
1979. My first few business flights were on British Midland Viscounts
from LHR to Teeside not long after that. So they certainly flew into
the 1980s.
Yes, definitely, but not between London and Aberdeen, the route Ria nw
flies on a hated post-1970 mode of transport. I think it was Tridents by
then. I flew that route quite a lot in those days.
Post by Trolleybus
My main memory of them is that the overhead luggage racks
had no doors, they were just open, like on a train.
That was normal in that era. I think they were intended as hat racks.
Marland
2020-01-12 17:38:07 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Marland
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Marland
Not with Vickers Viscounts though, how do you force yourself on to
something more modern.
I'm not *that* old..!
British Airways were still operating a few Viscounts into the early 80’s ,
if you can remember Routemasters you should remember Viscounts.
Or are you younger than your writings make you appear and your stint on
I flew to Aberdeen by BEA Viscount in 1970, which is about the date Ria
wishes all technological progress had stopped, when she was 16.
She is younger then than I would have thought from her writings, by 1970
London Transport was already running other buses of different designs such
as Daimler Fleetlines,AEC Swifts and Merlins and Leyland Nationals were
only few years away . So the London Transport of the 1970’s she appears to
have worked for had already lost much of its quality image with another
dent soon to come
when the cheap looking white roundel replaced the distinctive London
Transport fleet name in Gold coloured lettering.
I had thought she must have worked for them in the swinging sixties before
the individuality had started to ebb away.

GH
Sammi Gray-Jones
2020-01-12 17:19:40 UTC
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Post by Marland
British Airways were still operating a few Viscounts into the early 80’s ,
I remember when I was working in Germany in the late 80s that the
airmails were delivered on a Viscount flown by British Air Ferries.
Years later I met one of the pilots who flew that 'plane, as it used to
wake me up in the morning when flying over my house.
tim...
2020-01-12 18:35:31 UTC
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Post by Marland
British Airways were still operating a few Viscounts into the early 80’s ,
I remember when I was working in Germany in the late 80s that the airmails
were delivered on a Viscount flown by British Air Ferries.
Years later I met one of the pilots who flew that 'plane, as it used to
wake me up in the morning when flying over my house.
did it fly a bit low that day then?

tim
Sammi Gray-Jones
2020-01-14 19:57:14 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Sammi Gray-Jones
Post by Marland
British Airways were still operating a few Viscounts into the early 80’s ,
I remember when I was working in Germany in the late 80s that the
airmails were delivered on a Viscount flown by British Air Ferries.
Years later I met one of the pilots who flew that 'plane, as it used
to wake me up in the morning when flying over my house.
did it fly a bit low that day then?
tim
Our house was only a few hundred yards from the end of the runway, and
when landing in that direction it was less than 100 feet off the deck.
Sammi Gray-Jones
2020-01-11 23:50:15 UTC
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Post by Marland
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Recliner
Post by MissRiaElaine
It's all academic as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to travel on these
monstrosities, they are an insult to the traditional Routemaster that
served London so well for so long.
Presumably it's not hard to avoid them, given that you live in Aberdeen?
I spend quite a lot of time in London actually, there are flights all
the time :-)
Not with Vickers Viscounts though, how do you force yourself on to
something more modern.
GH
It's hard, but these are the things we have to do.
tim...
2020-01-11 17:10:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
It's all academic as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to travel on these
monstrosities, they are an insult to the traditional Routemaster that
served London so well for so long.
so what do you do

go on a round the houses trek on three busses to avoid using one?

tim
MissRiaElaine
2020-01-11 18:22:50 UTC
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Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by MissRiaElaine
It's all academic as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to travel on these
monstrosities, they are an insult to the traditional Routemaster that
served London so well for so long.
so what do you do
go on a round the houses trek on three busses to avoid using one?
Either that or get the Underground. Sometimes I even walk.
--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]
Marland
2020-01-11 17:51:07 UTC
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Post by MissRiaElaine
It's all academic as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to travel on these
monstrosities, they are an insult to the traditional Routemaster that
served London so well for so long.
As you live in Aberdeen its hardly a statement of sacrifice , if you lived
in London and really would prefer so to stand at a bus stop waiting for a
vehicle that your conscience would allow you to travel on
while Boris buses could have taken you earlier then apart from you who
cares, London is full of strange folk and one more wouldn’t be noticed.

We all have our favourite eras often driven by emotion rather than
practical considerations.
Although I was only small when it took place it took me a long time to
like the Routemaster as they had displaced the Trolleybuses I found
fascinating , to me they were just another motorbus though later I got to
learn about their construction being quite advanced.
We left London 6 months after the last Trolley though so it was a bit
academic, ISTR the overhead was removed quite quickly which dashed my young
and innocent hopes that they might change there minds. We left London a few
months later so it was all academic anyway.
On regular visits back they still were just a bus not that much different
on the outside from the AEC Regents seen in many provincial towns, it took
the introduction of the Red Arrow branded single deckers Merlins and
Swifts to provide a bit of excitement.


GH
Peter Able
2020-01-15 18:39:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by MissRiaElaine
It's all academic as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to travel on these
monstrosities, they are an insult to the traditional Routemaster that
served London so well for so long.
As you live in Aberdeen its hardly a statement of sacrifice , if you lived
in London and really would prefer so to stand at a bus stop waiting for a
vehicle that your conscience would allow you to travel on
while Boris buses could have taken you earlier then apart from you who
cares, London is full of strange folk and one more wouldn’t be noticed.
We all have our favourite eras often driven by emotion rather than
practical considerations.
Although I was only small when it took place it took me a long time to
like the Routemaster as they had displaced the Trolleybuses I found
fascinating , to me they were just another motorbus though later I got to
learn about their construction being quite advanced.
We left London 6 months after the last Trolley though so it was a bit
academic, ISTR the overhead was removed quite quickly which dashed my young
and innocent hopes that they might change there minds. We left London a few
months later so it was all academic anyway.
On regular visits back they still were just a bus not that much different
on the outside from the AEC Regents seen in many provincial towns, it took
the introduction of the Red Arrow branded single deckers Merlins and
Swifts to provide a bit of excitement.
GH
Ironically, long after the wires came down in Twickenham and, yes, they
were taken down very quickly, the tram rails used to regularly reappear
every summer when the diaphanously thin tar laid over them near
Twickenham Junction used to peel off. Also the slot for the Junction
point lever was still there.

As a conductor at Fulwell Garage around 1970, I can state that the RMs
were far more popular with my colleagues than the RT/Regents. The latter
were not that well sprung by then whereas the conductor's position in
the RMs were so much better ride-wise - plus that that position was
recessed, so less passengers jumping onto your feet as they rushed out
off the lower deck. Fulwell still had poles, cobbles and tram tracks in
those days - but, just like at Twickenham Junction, the diaphanous
tarmac later applied was ripped up by the SMs that took over from both
RTs and RMs at that time.

PA
Marland
2020-01-15 20:17:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Able
Post by Marland
Post by MissRiaElaine
It's all academic as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to travel on these
We all have our favourite eras often driven by emotion rather than
practical considerations.
Although I was only small when it took place it took me a long time to
like the Routemaster as they had displaced the Trolleybuses I found
fascinating , to me they were just another motorbus though later I got to
learn about their construction being quite advanced.
Ironically, long after the wires came down in Twickenham and, yes, they
were taken down very quickly, the tram rails used to regularly reappear
every summer when the diaphanously thin tar laid over them near
Twickenham Junction used to peel off.
I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to
Hampton Court. Normally we never went outwards that our journeys always
being inwards so had not seen any remaining tram lines in the road before.
Though at that time the former Tram depot in between Chiswick and
Hammersmith at that time still had them visible as far as the gate. I think
they were still there when the fleet assigned to BEA link bus duties were
located there a bit later.
Post by Peter Able
As a conductor at Fulwell Garage around 1970, I can state that the RMs
were far more popular with my colleagues than the RT/Regents. The latter
were not that well sprung by then whereas the conductor's position in
the RMs were so much better ride-wise - plus that that position was
I always forget the RT was part of the AEC line, I suppose I was was mainly
thinking about the later Regent Vs which to a pure layman did not look too
dissimilar at first glance especially rear entrance open platform ones
operated by some operators like Southampton.

GH
b***@nowhere.org
2020-01-16 10:20:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 15 Jan 2020 20:17:18 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by Peter Able
Post by Marland
Post by MissRiaElaine
It's all academic as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to travel on these
We all have our favourite eras often driven by emotion rather than
practical considerations.
Although I was only small when it took place it took me a long time to
like the Routemaster as they had displaced the Trolleybuses I found
fascinating , to me they were just another motorbus though later I got to
learn about their construction being quite advanced.
Ironically, long after the wires came down in Twickenham and, yes, they
were taken down very quickly, the tram rails used to regularly reappear
every summer when the diaphanously thin tar laid over them near
Twickenham Junction used to peel off.
I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to
I do sometimes wonder what - if anything - was going through the minds of
the people who authorised the destruction of tram and trolleybus systems
around the UK back then to replace them with diesel buses that in those days
were utterly filthy with thick blue-grey and even black smoke coming out of
the exhaust being the norm. I can't help thinking some brown envelopes were
involved at some point.
Graeme Wall
2020-01-16 10:59:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On 15 Jan 2020 20:17:18 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by Peter Able
Post by Marland
Post by MissRiaElaine
It's all academic as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to travel on these
We all have our favourite eras often driven by emotion rather than
practical considerations.
Although I was only small when it took place it took me a long time to
like the Routemaster as they had displaced the Trolleybuses I found
fascinating , to me they were just another motorbus though later I got to
learn about their construction being quite advanced.
Ironically, long after the wires came down in Twickenham and, yes, they
were taken down very quickly, the tram rails used to regularly reappear
every summer when the diaphanously thin tar laid over them near
Twickenham Junction used to peel off.
I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to
I do sometimes wonder what - if anything - was going through the minds of
the people who authorised the destruction of tram and trolleybus systems
around the UK back then to replace them with diesel buses that in those days
were utterly filthy with thick blue-grey and even black smoke coming out of
the exhaust being the norm. I can't help thinking some brown envelopes were
involved at some point.
Cheap option, to replace and repair the time expired equipment after the
war would have been very expensive. Motor buses were plentiful and cheap
with the sudden drop in demand for military vehicles.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Marland
2020-01-16 11:05:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On 15 Jan 2020 20:17:18 GMT
Post by Marland
I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to
I do sometimes wonder what - if anything - was going through the minds of
the people who authorised the destruction of tram and trolleybus systems
around the UK back then to replace them with diesel buses that in those days
were utterly filthy with thick blue-grey and even black smoke coming out of
the exhaust being the norm. I can't help thinking some brown envelopes were
involved at some point.
There were several factors that intermingled and this far away from the
events the debate probably cannot fully reach a conclusion as those who
took the decisions have long died,the initial moves starting in the 1930’s.
Many tram systems were worn out by then and the capital cost of replacing
rails was just too much,
the bigger places that could afford too sometimes decided that the power
distribution network still had some life so opted for trolleybuses but
many smaller towns went to the Motor bus.
WW2 altered things considerably, it actually prolonged the life of some
tram routes that should have ceased including London the Trolleybus
conversion being interrupted.
By the time that was over smaller diesel engines were available that were a
better proposition than the older 1930’s versions and so the programme was
never restarted.
Post war building and expansion of towns did not help either together with
extensive road remodelling
making it difficult to to accommodate trams or trolleys with their
infrastructure.
Another factor was the alterations to the power supply industry as councils
lost control of power stations that had originated to provide power for the
tramway but now they had to pay the nationalised
electricity boards just like everyone else.
A few places that looked like they would have kept trolleybuses came
across the problem that as there were now only a handful of them the
manufactures no longer made them or if they did they were
going to be very expensive compared to motor bus chassis coming of
production lines in quantity for here and export. A glut of serviceable
vehicles went from closed systems to others which filled in some gaps but
did nothing to encourage a manufacturer to stay in such a small market.

It was quite hostile environment for electric traction in city streets.
It would have taken something from central government to make the
conditions more favourable
such as cheaper electric . Brown envelopes probably were not needed, the
whole nation was turning petrolhead and the Motor industry had more
potential to export IC engined vehicles than electric
and at the time the UK badly needed foreign earnings from manufacturing
which means dirt.
It is only in recent times that we have got foreign earnings from financial
services etc so have the luxury of keeping our hands clean and the heavy
pollution in China ,India etc.



GH
b***@nowhere.org
2020-01-16 11:43:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 16 Jan 2020 11:05:52 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On 15 Jan 2020 20:17:18 GMT
Post by Marland
I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to
I do sometimes wonder what - if anything - was going through the minds of
the people who authorised the destruction of tram and trolleybus systems
around the UK back then to replace them with diesel buses that in those days
were utterly filthy with thick blue-grey and even black smoke coming out of
the exhaust being the norm. I can't help thinking some brown envelopes were
involved at some point.
There were several factors that intermingled and this far away from the
And they all sound plausible - but the same could equally be said about
germany or eastern europe after WW2 but in general the systems there were
kept and expanded.
Robin
2020-01-16 13:16:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On 16 Jan 2020 11:05:52 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On 15 Jan 2020 20:17:18 GMT
Post by Marland
I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to
I do sometimes wonder what - if anything - was going through the minds of
the people who authorised the destruction of tram and trolleybus systems
around the UK back then to replace them with diesel buses that in those days
were utterly filthy with thick blue-grey and even black smoke coming out of
the exhaust being the norm. I can't help thinking some brown envelopes were
involved at some point.
There were several factors that intermingled and this far away from the
And they all sound plausible - but the same could equally be said about
germany or eastern europe after WW2 but in general the systems there were
kept and expanded.
Many cities in France removed their trams after WW2. Some of them have
reinstated them since but it was a lot easier to do so with wide
boulevards. London is mostly different.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Bryan Morris
2020-01-16 19:52:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robin
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On 16 Jan 2020 11:05:52 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On 15 Jan 2020 20:17:18 GMT
Post by Marland
I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to
I do sometimes wonder what - if anything - was going through the minds of
the people who authorised the destruction of tram and trolleybus systems
around the UK back then to replace them with diesel buses that in those days
were utterly filthy with thick blue-grey and even black smoke coming out of
the exhaust being the norm. I can't help thinking some brown envelopes were
involved at some point.
There were several factors that intermingled and this far away from the
And they all sound plausible - but the same could equally be said about
germany or eastern europe after WW2 but in general the systems there were
kept and expanded.
Many cities in France removed their trams after WW2. Some of them have
reinstated them since but it was a lot easier to do so with wide
boulevards. London is mostly different.
Problem with trams/trolley busses is they can't overtake each other and
go at the speed of the one in front. With narrow streets they cause
congestion.

We used to have a trolley bus route outside our flat, there was a
junction so the conductor had to get out to pull a chain switching the
poles in a form of overhead points. Quite often then the poles became
detached from the line and then they had to stop again whilst the
conductor pulled a long pole from underneath the bus to fix the overhead
poles to the wires again, with a build up of traffic behind. Then if the
trolley bus broke down they could only travel a few yards on a battery
so again great build up behind (and no room on a narrow road for other
busses to pass without themselves getting detached from the wires.
No trolley busses in Central London as the wires were unsightly.

If roads were wider and straighter OK but London in particular was not
built with trolley busses in mind
--
Bryan Morris
Recliner
2020-01-17 13:37:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bryan Morris
Post by Robin
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On 16 Jan 2020 11:05:52 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On 15 Jan 2020 20:17:18 GMT
Post by Marland
I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to
I do sometimes wonder what - if anything - was going through the minds of
the people who authorised the destruction of tram and trolleybus systems
around the UK back then to replace them with diesel buses that in those days
were utterly filthy with thick blue-grey and even black smoke coming out of
the exhaust being the norm. I can't help thinking some brown envelopes were
involved at some point.
There were several factors that intermingled and this far away from the
And they all sound plausible - but the same could equally be said about
germany or eastern europe after WW2 but in general the systems there were
kept and expanded.
Many cities in France removed their trams after WW2. Some of them have
reinstated them since but it was a lot easier to do so with wide
boulevards. London is mostly different.
Problem with trams/trolley busses is they can't overtake each other and
go at the speed of the one in front. With narrow streets they cause
congestion.
We used to have a trolley bus route outside our flat, there was a
junction so the conductor had to get out to pull a chain switching the
poles in a form of overhead points.
You might be interested in how contemporary trams switch routes with
points in the overhead wires:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157657326035738
Ian Clifton
2020-01-17 14:58:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Bryan Morris
Post by Robin
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On 16 Jan 2020 11:05:52 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On 15 Jan 2020 20:17:18 GMT
Post by Marland
I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to
I do sometimes wonder what - if anything - was going through the minds of
the people who authorised the destruction of tram and trolleybus systems
around the UK back then to replace them with diesel buses that in those days
were utterly filthy with thick blue-grey and even black smoke coming out of
the exhaust being the norm. I can't help thinking some brown envelopes were
involved at some point.
There were several factors that intermingled and this far away from the
And they all sound plausible - but the same could equally be said about
germany or eastern europe after WW2 but in general the systems there were
kept and expanded.
Many cities in France removed their trams after WW2. Some of them have
reinstated them since but it was a lot easier to do so with wide
boulevards. London is mostly different.
Problem with trams/trolley busses is they can't overtake each other and
go at the speed of the one in front. With narrow streets they cause
congestion.
We used to have a trolley bus route outside our flat, there was a
junction so the conductor had to get out to pull a chain switching the
poles in a form of overhead points.
You might be interested in how contemporary trams switch routes with
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157657326035738
The trams seem to have the same type of pick‐up as the trolley buses. Is
it possible to combine pantograph pick‐ups with trolley buses? I’m just
trying to visualise it, the two cable systems would have to be at
slightly different levels, I suppose.
--
Ian ◎
b***@nowhere.org
2020-01-17 16:04:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 14:58:45 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by Bryan Morris
Post by Robin
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On 16 Jan 2020 11:05:52 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On 15 Jan 2020 20:17:18 GMT
Post by Marland
I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to
I do sometimes wonder what - if anything - was going through the minds
of
Post by Recliner
Post by Bryan Morris
Post by Robin
Post by b***@nowhere.org
Post by Marland
Post by b***@nowhere.org
the people who authorised the destruction of tram and trolleybus systems
around the UK back then to replace them with diesel buses that in those days
were utterly filthy with thick blue-grey and even black smoke coming out of
the exhaust being the norm. I can't help thinking some brown envelopes were
involved at some point.
There were several factors that intermingled and this far away from the
And they all sound plausible - but the same could equally be said about
germany or eastern europe after WW2 but in general the systems there were
kept and expanded.
Many cities in France removed their trams after WW2. Some of them have
reinstated them since but it was a lot easier to do so with wide
boulevards. London is mostly different.
Problem with trams/trolley busses is they can't overtake each other and
go at the speed of the one in front. With narrow streets they cause
congestion.
We used to have a trolley bus route outside our flat, there was a
junction so the conductor had to get out to pull a chain switching the
poles in a form of overhead points.
You might be interested in how contemporary trams switch routes with
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157657326035738
The trams seem to have the same type of pick‐up as the trolley buses. Is
it possible to combine pantograph pick‐ups with trolley buses? I’m just
trying to visualise it, the two cable systems would have to be at
slightly different levels, I suppose.
Seimens tried something like that a few years back but nothing seems to have
come of it unfortunately. It requires electronic guidance but these days thats
not a problem. I imagine it makes the overhead an order of magnitude simpler
to build and maintain.

https://new.siemens.com/global/en/products/mobility/road-solutions/electromobili
ty/ehighway.html
Bryan Morris
2020-01-17 20:04:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Bryan Morris
Post by Robin
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On 16 Jan 2020 11:05:52 GMT
Post by Marland
Post by b***@nowhere.org
On 15 Jan 2020 20:17:18 GMT
Post by Marland
I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to
I do sometimes wonder what - if anything - was going through the minds of
the people who authorised the destruction of tram and trolleybus systems
around the UK back then to replace them with diesel buses that in those days
were utterly filthy with thick blue-grey and even black smoke coming out of
the exhaust being the norm. I can't help thinking some brown envelopes were
involved at some point.
There were several factors that intermingled and this far away from the
And they all sound plausible - but the same could equally be said about
germany or eastern europe after WW2 but in general the systems there were
kept and expanded.
Many cities in France removed their trams after WW2. Some of them have
reinstated them since but it was a lot easier to do so with wide
boulevards. London is mostly different.
Problem with trams/trolley busses is they can't overtake each other and
go at the speed of the one in front. With narrow streets they cause
congestion.
We used to have a trolley bus route outside our flat, there was a
junction so the conductor had to get out to pull a chain switching the
poles in a form of overhead points.
You might be interested in how contemporary trams switch routes with
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157657326035738
From memory the default was straight ahead, if the bus had to use the
outside pair of wires the conductor got off, pulled this chain down and
held it, the driver then drove the bus forward till it was on the
outside pair when the conductor let go of the chain, ran after the bus
and (I think) thumped the back so the driver knew he was back on board.
I can't see from the photos how the points work or who (if anyone)
operates them.
I also recall at, I think Shoreditch, where the buses had to make a
right hand turn , more often than not, the trolley poles flew off the
wires.

Then of course trolleybuses didn't cross the Thames.
--
Bryan Morris
Peter Able
2020-01-17 18:35:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bryan Morris
Problem with trams/trolley busses is they can't overtake each other and
go at the speed of the one in front. With narrow streets they cause
congestion.
We used to have a trolley bus route outside our flat, there was a
junction so the conductor had to get out to pull a chain switching the
poles in a form of overhead points. Quite often then the poles became
detached from the line and then they had to stop again whilst the
conductor pulled a long pole from underneath the bus to fix the overhead
poles to the wires again, with a build up of traffic behind. Then if the
trolley bus broke down they could only travel a few yards on a battery
so again great build up behind (and no room on a narrow road for other
busses to pass without themselves getting detached from the wires.
No trolley busses in Central London as the wires were unsightly.
If roads were wider and straighter OK but London in particular was not
built with trolley busses in mind.
Wasn't a problem! Where routes 667 and 657(?) merged - at Busch Corner,
Isleworth - the drivers used to hold back intentionally so that the
other garage's trolleybus took the strain ALL the way along the Chiswick
High Road!

I guess that the same thing happened with trams - and the habit carried
through to the age of Routemasters UNTIL - in 1971, I think - the bonus
system switched from garage-based to crew-based. In an instant the
drivers were suddenly Stirling Mosses when heading for Busch Corner!

BTW - and this comment is only as good as 50 years memory allows - I
seem to recall that the ex-trolley drivers at FW said that they switched
wires by biasing the trolleys as they approached the bifurcation.

PA
Peter Able
2020-01-17 17:54:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Marland
Post by Peter Able
Post by Marland
Post by MissRiaElaine
It's all academic as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to travel on these
We all have our favourite eras often driven by emotion rather than
practical considerations.
Although I was only small when it took place it took me a long time to
like the Routemaster as they had displaced the Trolleybuses I found
fascinating , to me they were just another motorbus though later I got to
learn about their construction being quite advanced.
Ironically, long after the wires came down in Twickenham and, yes, they
were taken down very quickly, the tram rails used to regularly reappear
every summer when the diaphanously thin tar laid over them near
Twickenham Junction used to peel off.
I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to
Hampton Court. Normally we never went outwards that our journeys always
being inwards so had not seen any remaining tram lines in the road before.
Though at that time the former Tram depot in between Chiswick and
Hammersmith at that time still had them visible as far as the gate. I think
they were still there when the fleet assigned to BEA link bus duties were
located there a bit later.
Post by Peter Able
As a conductor at Fulwell Garage around 1970, I can state that the RMs
were far more popular with my colleagues than the RT/Regents. The latter
were not that well sprung by then whereas the conductor's position in
the RMs were so much better ride-wise - plus that that position was
I always forget the RT was part of the AEC line, I suppose I was was mainly
thinking about the later Regent Vs which to a pure layman did not look too
dissimilar at first glance especially rear entrance open platform ones
operated by some operators like Southampton.
GH
I don't remember a garage/depot between Chiswick and Hammersmith. Must
have gone before my time. Chiswick Works had a code, CS, but only for
non-passenger duties. I remember being out on a training run on an RT
from CS, along with an instructor and about 20 trainee conductors.
Perhaps foolishly, the driver pulled up at a stop and an old, stooped,
"geezer" mounted the platform. Once firmly on-board he looked up
expecting, I guess, to see 20 passengers and one conductor. The fact
that it was the exact reverse of his expectations left him - well, you
can imagine (if not - just how a live cod-fish looks)!! The instructor
carefully shepherded him back onto the pavement.

The 267 or "London" - the RM successor to the 667 was the real
money-maker for FW. The run out to Hampton Court carried a lot of
tourists during the summer, and one was always pestered by Americans
asking "Is that Hampton Court?". Even the little Swiss-looking
Thames-side boat-house was fair game to their expectations. You can
imagine the raucus "Geeeeee", as we swung around the roundabout!

PA
Marland
2020-01-17 21:00:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Able
Post by Marland
Though at that time the former Tram depot in between Chiswick and
Hammersmith at that time still had them visible as far as the gate. I think
they were still there when the fleet assigned to BEA link bus duties were
located there a bit later.
I don't remember a garage/depot between Chiswick and Hammersmith. Must
have gone before my time.
You almost certainly will have seen it ,possibly in one of its moribund
periods as a depot/garage.
Built originally for horse cars but rebuilt for electric by London United
Tramways who at the same time built a power station alongside.
Used for munitions manufacture in WW1 and ownership transferred to LCC in
the early twenties with LUT renting back some facilities until their trams
were replaced by their trolleybuses shortly before the formation of the
LPTB. They used it on a couple of occasions while work was done on garages
elsewhere providing a facility for Putney’s Motor buses in 35/36 and
Trolleybuses for a short period in 37 when a basic loop of overhead was
installed while Hammersmith was made ready.
It was basically just used as a workshop facility after that for the next
30 years along with the power station site which at sometime had ceased
generation but remained as a substation fed from Lots Road. The BEA fleet
moved in in 1966 and was their until 1978.
It was then returned to normal bus use in 1980 as Stamford Brook which
better describes its location,
closed again in 1996 and use as a store for vehicles held off the road but
returned back to a working garage later in 1999 which remains its current
status.
Meanwhile the adjacent power station has been turned into musical studios
and residential flats.
The power station building at least can easily be seen from the District
and Piccadilly routes just West of Stamford Brook station .

A short distance along the road towards Hammersmith in the era I lived
there when small there was also the terminus of the never successful
Hammersmith and Chiswick Railway still in use as a railway served coal
yard, and a shop whose window held a selection of interesting model trains
,non smaller than O gauge and many larger. Have never found out what it was
called or when it closed.
The Hammersmith and Chiswick went in 1965 and the land used for housing in
the 1980’s.
You would never know it had been a railway now.
The wiki on that line has a map which shows both it and the tram depot
before the power station and electric trams.

GH

tim...
2020-01-11 17:05:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Passengers using London's New Routemaster buses will only be able to board
them using the front door in future, transport bosses have said.
so the conductor is going to enforce that rule, is he?

tim
Peter Johnson
2020-01-11 19:08:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 10 Jan 2020 23:17:07 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
Post by Recliner
Passengers using London's New Routemaster buses will only be able to board
them using the front door in future, transport bosses have said.
See also:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/10/fare-dodging-forces-closure-of-rear-doors-on-new-routemaster-bus
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