Discussion:
Hopper fare and two journeys lasting more than an hour
(too old to reply)
Jarle Hammen Knudsen
2017-09-13 10:52:52 UTC
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With Sadiq Khan’s ‘Hopper’ fare in effect, what should you do if the
second journey takes you over the one hour limit? Will you have to go
forward and touch your card again?
--
jhk
Roland Perry
2017-09-13 11:03:59 UTC
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Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
With Sadiq Khan’s ‘Hopper’ fare in effect, what should you do if the
second journey takes you over the one hour limit? Will you have to go
forward and touch your card again?
Isn't it *starting* the first leg within an hour?

Otherwise the sort of problem you mention arises. When I last looked, my
Oyster card didn't display when I started the first journey, nor a
stopwatch readout. I don't wear a watch. SK can suck it up!
--
Roland Perry
Jarle Hammen Knudsen
2017-09-13 11:16:14 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
With Sadiq Khan’s ‘Hopper’ fare in effect, what should you do if the
second journey takes you over the one hour limit? Will you have to go
forward and touch your card again?
Isn't it *starting* the first leg within an hour?
I assume you meant starting the *second* leg within an hour.

No. The fares page [1] says:

" Make a journey using pay as you go (contactless or Oyster) on a bus
or tram, and you can now make a second bus or tram journey for free
within one hour of touching in on the first bus or tram. "

To me, making a bus journey means getting on the bus, riding the bus
and getting off again.


[1] https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/fares/bus-and-tram
--
jhk
Recliner
2017-09-13 11:22:44 UTC
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On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 13:16:14 +0200, Jarle Hammen Knudsen
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
Post by Roland Perry
With Sadiq Khan’s ‘Hopper’ fare in effect, what should you do if the
second journey takes you over the one hour limit? Will you have to go
forward and touch your card again?
Isn't it *starting* the first leg within an hour?
I assume you meant starting the *second* leg within an hour.
" Make a journey using pay as you go (contactless or Oyster) on a bus
or tram, and you can now make a second bus or tram journey for free
within one hour of touching in on the first bus or tram. "
To me, making a bus journey means getting on the bus, riding the bus
and getting off again.
[1] https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/fares/bus-and-tram
No, I think Roland is right: the second journey just has to start
within an hour of the first. The Oyster system has no idea how long
you stay on the second bus, and a ticket inspector will simply check
that you touched in correctly.
Neil Williams
2017-09-13 11:54:52 UTC
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Post by Recliner
No, I think Roland is right: the second journey just has to start
within an hour of the first. The Oyster system has no idea how long
you stay on the second bus, and a ticket inspector will simply check
that you touched in correctly.
Correct.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
Jarle Hammen Knudsen
2017-09-13 18:00:56 UTC
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On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:22:44 +0100, Recliner
Post by Recliner
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 13:16:14 +0200, Jarle Hammen Knudsen
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
With Sadiq Khan’s ‘Hopper’ fare in effect, what should you do if the
second journey takes you over the one hour limit? Will you have to go
forward and touch your card again?
Isn't it *starting* the first leg within an hour?
I assume you meant starting the *second* leg within an hour.
" Make a journey using pay as you go (contactless or Oyster) on a bus
or tram, and you can now make a second bus or tram journey for free
within one hour of touching in on the first bus or tram. "
To me, making a bus journey means getting on the bus, riding the bus
and getting off again.
[1] https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/fares/bus-and-tram
No, I think Roland is right: the second journey just has to start
within an hour of the first. The Oyster system has no idea how long
you stay on the second bus, and a ticket inspector will simply check
that you touched in correctly.
If that is what TfL means, why do they say "make a second journey
within one hour" instead of "start a second journey within one hour"?

While the Oyster (and contactless) system does not know how long you
stay on a bus, it does record the time of your touches, so it is
definitely possible for a ticket inspector to see how long you have
been on a bus when he checks your card.
--
jhk
Recliner
2017-09-13 20:32:35 UTC
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On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 20:00:56 +0200, Jarle Hammen Knudsen
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:22:44 +0100, Recliner
Post by Recliner
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 13:16:14 +0200, Jarle Hammen Knudsen
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
Post by Roland Perry
With Sadiq Khan’s ‘Hopper’ fare in effect, what should you do if the
second journey takes you over the one hour limit? Will you have to go
forward and touch your card again?
Isn't it *starting* the first leg within an hour?
I assume you meant starting the *second* leg within an hour.
" Make a journey using pay as you go (contactless or Oyster) on a bus
or tram, and you can now make a second bus or tram journey for free
within one hour of touching in on the first bus or tram. "
To me, making a bus journey means getting on the bus, riding the bus
and getting off again.
[1] https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/fares/bus-and-tram
No, I think Roland is right: the second journey just has to start
within an hour of the first. The Oyster system has no idea how long
you stay on the second bus, and a ticket inspector will simply check
that you touched in correctly.
If that is what TfL means, why do they say "make a second journey
within one hour" instead of "start a second journey within one hour"?
While the Oyster (and contactless) system does not know how long you
stay on a bus, it does record the time of your touches, so it is
definitely possible for a ticket inspector to see how long you have
been on a bus when he checks your card.
Yes, and whether it's within 60 minutes or not is irrelevant: s/he
will be able to see that you touched in on the second bus, which is
all that matters. It doesn't matter to the inspector whether or not
that second touch-in will be charged or not. All that matters is that
you correctly touched in, and are therefore travelling legitimately.

In practice, most of the passengers on a typical bus won't actually be
paying for their journey, but that's OK and legitimate.
Nobody
2017-09-15 00:58:11 UTC
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On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:22:44 +0100, Recliner
Post by Recliner
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 13:16:14 +0200, Jarle Hammen Knudsen
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
With Sadiq Khan’s ‘Hopper’ fare in effect, what should you do if the
second journey takes you over the one hour limit? Will you have to go
forward and touch your card again?
Isn't it *starting* the first leg within an hour?
I assume you meant starting the *second* leg within an hour.
" Make a journey using pay as you go (contactless or Oyster) on a bus
or tram, and you can now make a second bus or tram journey for free
within one hour of touching in on the first bus or tram. "
To me, making a bus journey means getting on the bus, riding the bus
and getting off again.
[1] https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/fares/bus-and-tram
No, I think Roland is right: the second journey just has to start
within an hour of the first. The Oyster system has no idea how long
you stay on the second bus, and a ticket inspector will simply check
that you touched in correctly.
That's the approach of Translink in Metro Vancouver, where buses are a
flat one-zone fare with 100-minute transferability.

Using SkyTrain or SeaBus invokes multi-zone fares, but you'd be
hard-pressed to figure out a complete bus-only routing across multiple
zones before the 100-minute window expired anyway and an additional
one-zone fare would be charged on boarding an additional bus service.

And that's without taking into account the huge waste of time by
trundling by bus alone.
Neil Williams
2017-09-13 11:54:33 UTC
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Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
To me, making a bus journey means getting on the bus, riding the bus
and getting off again.
TfL does not share your interpretation.

If you touch in on the second bus within one hour of touching in on the
first bus, you are not charged and the journey can be completed in
whatever amount of time it takes.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
Jarle Hammen Knudsen
2017-09-13 18:02:59 UTC
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On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:54:33 +0100, Neil Williams
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
To me, making a bus journey means getting on the bus, riding the bus
and getting off again.
TfL does not share your interpretation.
If you touch in on the second bus within one hour of touching in on the
first bus, you are not charged and the journey can be completed in
whatever amount of time it takes.
Is this documented somewhere?
--
jhk
Richard J.
2017-09-13 18:35:36 UTC
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Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:54:33 +0100, Neil Williams
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
To me, making a bus journey means getting on the bus, riding the bus
and getting off again.
TfL does not share your interpretation.
If you touch in on the second bus within one hour of touching in on the
first bus, you are not charged and the journey can be completed in
whatever amount of time it takes.
Is this documented somewhere?
It's not in the TfL Conditions of Carriage (12 Sep 2016). Section 6.8.6 says "If you make a journey using pay as you go on a bus or tram, you can make a second bus or tram journey for free within one hour of first touching in." As has been noted already, that is ambiguous.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)
Recliner
2017-09-13 20:29:45 UTC
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On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 19:35:36 +0100, "Richard J."
Post by Richard J.
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:54:33 +0100, Neil Williams
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
To me, making a bus journey means getting on the bus, riding the bus
and getting off again.
TfL does not share your interpretation.
If you touch in on the second bus within one hour of touching in on the
first bus, you are not charged and the journey can be completed in
whatever amount of time it takes.
Is this documented somewhere?
It's not in the TfL Conditions of Carriage (12 Sep 2016). Section 6.8.6 says "If you make a journey using pay as you go on a bus or tram, you can make a second bus or tram journey for free within one hour of first touching in." As has been noted already, that is ambiguous.
I don't find it ambiguous at all. To me, it's perfectly clear that it
means your second touch-in will be free if it's within 60 minutes of
the first.
Roland Perry
2017-09-14 06:08:19 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Richard J.
Section 6.8.6 says "If you make a journey using pay as you go on a bus
or tram, you can make a second bus or tram journey for free within one
hour of first touching in." As has been noted already, that is
ambiguous.
I don't find it ambiguous at all. To me, it's perfectly clear that it
means your second touch-in will be free if it's within 60 minutes of
the first.
Yes, because I can easily conclude they are (from the public perspective
anyway) falling between two stools of dumbing-down and using internal
jargon.

Thus the public might feel that a more accurate clause was:

"If you COMPLETE ONE journey using pay as you go on a bus or
tram, you can START a second bus or tram journey for free within
one hour of first touching in."

But the author sees:

"If you MAKE A TOUCH-IN using pay as you go on a bus or tram,
you can MAKE a second bus or tram TOUCH-IN for free within one
hour of first touching in."

There's another kind of "make" jargon in the Fire Brigade. By default
they send two pumps, but the officer in charge can radio in "Make pumps
four". Which doesn't mean "please place an order with the manufacturer
to make four more pumps", but "make THE NUMBER OF pumps HERE INCREASE TO
four".
--
Roland Perry
Clive Page
2017-09-14 10:49:08 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
"If you COMPLETE ONE journey using pay as you go on a bus or
tram, you can START a second bus or tram journey for free within
one hour of first touching in."
"If you MAKE A TOUCH-IN using pay as you go on a bus or tram,
you can MAKE a second bus or tram TOUCH-IN for free within one
hour of first touching in."
I agree its ambiguous, but the former is surely intended.

But what happens if you have to catch a 3rd bus because the 2nd one is terminated early? A couple of times recently on a bus that I've been using the driver has had instructions sent in by radio to stop his service prematurely, perhaps because of congestion or too many of the same route number in a convoy. So I've had to get off and get on another bus that is following the same route. This doesn't cause me more than mild annoyance as I have a bus pass, but if you are using Oyster would this be included in the 2nd-bus-within-an-hour concession, and if so how does the system handle it?
--
Clive Page
Roland Perry
2017-09-14 11:08:37 UTC
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Post by Clive Page
Post by Roland Perry
"If you COMPLETE ONE journey using pay as you go on a bus or
tram, you can START a second bus or tram journey for free within
one hour of first touching in."
"If you MAKE A TOUCH-IN using pay as you go on a bus or tram,
you can MAKE a second bus or tram TOUCH-IN for free within one
hour of first touching in."
I agree its ambiguous, but the former is surely intended.
But what happens if you have to catch a 3rd bus because the 2nd one is
terminated early? A couple of times recently on a bus that I've been
using the driver has had instructions sent in by radio to stop his
service prematurely, perhaps because of congestion or too many of the
same route number in a convoy. So I've had to get off and get on
another bus that is following the same route. This doesn't cause me
more than mild annoyance as I have a bus pass, but if you are using
Oyster would this be included in the 2nd-bus-within-an-hour concession,
and if so how does the system handle it?
Back in the day wasn't the driver of the terminating bus supposed to
give you a chitty to show the following driver?
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-09-14 12:08:15 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Clive Page
Post by Roland Perry
"If you COMPLETE ONE journey using pay as you go on a bus
or tram, you can START a second bus or tram journey for free
within one hour of first touching in."
"If you MAKE A TOUCH-IN using pay as you go on a bus or tram,
you can MAKE a second bus or tram TOUCH-IN for free within one
hour of first touching in."
I agree its ambiguous, but the former is surely intended.
But what happens if you have to catch a 3rd bus because the 2nd one is
terminated early? A couple of times recently on a bus that I've been
using the driver has had instructions sent in by radio to stop his
service prematurely, perhaps because of congestion or too many of the
same route number in a convoy. So I've had to get off and get on
another bus that is following the same route. This doesn't cause me
more than mild annoyance as I have a bus pass, but if you are using
Oyster would this be included in the 2nd-bus-within-an-hour concession,
and if so how does the system handle it?
Back in the day wasn't the driver of the terminating bus supposed to
give you a chitty to show the following driver?
With emphasis on the "supposed", I seem to recall.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Robin
2017-09-14 12:58:00 UTC
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On 14/09/2017 13:08, ***@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
<Snip>
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Clive Page
But what happens if you have to catch a 3rd bus because the 2nd one is
terminated early? A couple of times recently on a bus that I've been
using the driver has had instructions sent in by radio to stop his
service prematurely, perhaps because of congestion or too many of the
same route number in a convoy. So I've had to get off and get on
another bus that is following the same route. This doesn't cause me
more than mild annoyance as I have a bus pass, but if you are using
Oyster would this be included in the 2nd-bus-within-an-hour concession,
and if so how does the system handle it?
Back in the day wasn't the driver of the terminating bus supposed to
give you a chitty to show the following driver?
With emphasis on the "supposed", I seem to recall.
The so-called "chitty" was offered to those who used Oyster PAYG or
Contactless by the driver of the W15 service I was on yesterday when he
announced the change of destination.

And by the driver of a 308 service sometime last week.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-09-14 15:57:03 UTC
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Post by Robin
<Snip>
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Clive Page
But what happens if you have to catch a 3rd bus because the 2nd one is
terminated early? A couple of times recently on a bus that I've
been using the driver has had instructions sent in by radio to stop
his service prematurely, perhaps because of congestion or too many of
the same route number in a convoy. So I've had to get off and get on
another bus that is following the same route. This doesn't cause me
more than mild annoyance as I have a bus pass, but if you are using
Oyster would this be included in the 2nd-bus-within-an-hour
concession, and if so how does the system handle it?
Back in the day wasn't the driver of the terminating bus supposed to
give you a chitty to show the following driver?
With emphasis on the "supposed", I seem to recall.
The so-called "chitty" was offered to those who used Oyster PAYG or
Contactless by the driver of the W15 service I was on yesterday when
he announced the change of destination.
And by the driver of a 308 service sometime last week.
Things must have improved then.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Clive Page
2017-09-14 22:06:36 UTC
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Back in the day wasn't the driver of the terminating bus supposed to give you a chitty to show the following driver?
Yes, well remembered.

Today I was in London and, would you believe it, the second bus I took was terminated early. So this must happen quite often. Surely somebody knows the solution to what must be a common problem? Or are bus fares so cheap that nobody cares any longer?
--
Clive Page
Recliner
2017-09-14 22:41:47 UTC
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Post by Clive Page
Post by Roland Perry
Back in the day wasn't the driver of the terminating bus supposed to
give you a chitty to show the following driver?
Yes, well remembered.
Today I was in London and, would you believe it, the second bus I took
was terminated early. So this must happen quite often. Surely somebody
knows the solution to what must be a common problem? Or are bus fares
so cheap that nobody cares any longer?
Probably, most people on the bus aren't paying at all, as they're covered
by bus passes, Freedom cards, Travelcards, Season Tickets, Oyster capping,
Hopper fares, Zip Oyster photocards, etc.
n***@moo.uklinux.net
2017-09-16 20:00:08 UTC
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Post by Clive Page
Or are bus fares so cheap that nobody cares any longer?
Even: if tickets cost a pound apiece, why should you make a fuss?

#Paul
Recliner
2017-09-17 00:53:15 UTC
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Post by n***@moo.uklinux.net
Post by Clive Page
Or are bus fares so cheap that nobody cares any longer?
Even: if tickets cost a pound apiece, why should you make a fuss?
£1.50
Robin
2017-09-17 07:56:45 UTC
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Post by n***@moo.uklinux.net
Post by Clive Page
Or are bus fares so cheap that nobody cares any longer?
Even: if tickets cost a pound apiece, why should you make a fuss?
How about if a pound is a significant fraction of your discretionary
spending for the week?
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
tim...
2017-09-17 13:27:53 UTC
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Post by n***@moo.uklinux.net
Post by Clive Page
Or are bus fares so cheap that nobody cares any longer?
Even: if tickets cost a pound apiece, why should you make a fuss?
did you miss a "not" out?

I make a fuss (FSVO) whenever someone's mistake rips me off

even if it's only 10p

tiom
Arthur Figgis
2017-09-17 17:49:48 UTC
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Post by n***@moo.uklinux.net
Post by Clive Page
Or are bus fares so cheap that nobody cares any longer?
Even: if tickets cost a pound apiece, why should you make a fuss?
For the record, at least one person knows the reference...
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Robin
2017-09-17 19:57:31 UTC
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Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by n***@moo.uklinux.net
Post by Clive Page
Or are bus fares so cheap that nobody cares any longer?
Even: if tickets cost a pound apiece, why should you make a fuss?
For the record, at least one person knows the reference...
Penny drops.

<hangs_head>

Oh bugger the buggeration of a buggered-up memory.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
James Heaton
2017-09-17 20:01:52 UTC
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Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by n***@moo.uklinux.net
Post by Clive Page
Or are bus fares so cheap that nobody cares any longer?
Even: if tickets cost a pound apiece, why should you make a fuss?
For the record, at least one person knows the reference...
How long since we had 6-wheelers though, or even one with as little as 97hp?

Still, it's Monday morning tomorrow, and I think I have a gasman coming to
call...!

James
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-09-17 23:12:52 UTC
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Post by James Heaton
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by n***@moo.uklinux.net
Post by Clive Page
Or are bus fares so cheap that nobody cares any longer?
Even: if tickets cost a pound apiece, why should you make a fuss?
For the record, at least one person knows the reference...
How long since we had 6-wheelers though, or even one with as little as 97hp?
They still are 6-wheeler, but only on 2 axles. Most buses since the 1930s
have had 4 wheels on their rear axles. The last 3-axle 6-wheelers were the
pre-war LTs and trolleybuses.
Post by James Heaton
Still, it's Monday morning tomorrow, and I think I have a gasman
coming to call...!
--
Colin Rosenstiel
d***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-09-17 23:42:50 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by James Heaton
How long since we had 6-wheelers though, or even one with as little as 97hp?
They still are 6-wheeler, but only on 2 axles. Most buses since the 1930s
have had 4 wheels on their rear axles. The last 3-axle 6-wheelers were the
pre-war LTs and trolleybuses.
Do the tour vehicles that run on some regular routes count as buses ?
some of those are former Hong Kong 3 axle buses imported back here.

G.Harman
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-09-18 09:56:25 UTC
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Post by d***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by James Heaton
How long since we had 6-wheelers though, or even one with as little as 97hp?
They still are 6-wheeler, but only on 2 axles. Most buses since the 1930s
have had 4 wheels on their rear axles. The last 3-axle 6-wheelers were
the pre-war LTs and trolleybuses.
Do the tour vehicles that run on some regular routes count as buses ?
some of those are former Hong Kong 3 axle buses imported back here.
3-axle coaches have become quite common recently. But they are 8-wheelers.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
James Heaton
2017-09-18 10:01:59 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by James Heaton
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by n***@moo.uklinux.net
Post by Clive Page
Or are bus fares so cheap that nobody cares any longer?
Even: if tickets cost a pound apiece, why should you make a fuss?
For the record, at least one person knows the reference...
How long since we had 6-wheelers though, or even one with as little as 97hp?
They still are 6-wheeler, but only on 2 axles. Most buses since the 1930s
have had 4 wheels on their rear axles. The last 3-axle 6-wheelers were the
pre-war LTs and trolleybuses.
Good spot Colin, I did mean 6 wheels over 3 axles.

So the LT for motor buses.

Does anyone recall how many wheels/axles the modern build of trolleys which
were exported to Spain had? And were they a postwar build?

Still waiting for that gasman, and I have a feeling I'll need a carpenter
tomorrow...!!

James
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-09-18 10:36:55 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by James Heaton
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by James Heaton
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by n***@moo.uklinux.net
Post by Clive Page
Or are bus fares so cheap that nobody cares any longer?
Even: if tickets cost a pound apiece, why should you make a fuss?
For the record, at least one person knows the reference...
How long since we had 6-wheelers though, or even one with as little as 97hp?
They still are 6-wheeler, but only on 2 axles. Most buses since the
1930s have had 4 wheels on their rear axles. The last 3-axle 6-wheelers
were the pre-war LTs and trolleybuses.
Good spot Colin, I did mean 6 wheels over 3 axles.
So the LT for motor buses.
Does anyone recall how many wheels/axles the modern build of trolleys
which were exported to Spain had? And were they a postwar build?
Like almost the entire London trolleybus fleet, 6 wheels on 3 axles.
Post by James Heaton
Still waiting for that gasman, and I have a feeling I'll need a
carpenter tomorrow...!!
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Offramp
2017-09-15 04:50:38 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Back in the day wasn't the driver of the terminating bus supposed to
give you a chitty to show the following driver?
This could happen at night as well.
Arthur Figgis
2017-09-14 18:23:02 UTC
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Post by Clive Page
But what happens if you have to catch a 3rd bus because the 2nd one is
terminated early?    A couple of times recently on a bus that I've been
using the driver has had instructions sent in by radio to stop his
service prematurely, perhaps because of congestion or too many of the
same route number in a convoy.  So I've had to get off and get on
another bus that is following the same route.  This doesn't cause me
more than mild annoyance as I have a bus pass, but if you are using
Oyster would this be included in the 2nd-bus-within-an-hour concession,
and if so how does the system handle it?
One of the passengers - it usually seems to be me - gets given a paper
ticket by the driver of terminated bus covering everyone onboard, which
they use to transfer without touching in again.

The fun starts if the next bus is a different route number but going the
right way, so good enough for the passenger to reach their destination,
but its driver wants passengers to stand in the rain waiting for the
"right" bus to come along later.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
tim...
2017-09-15 08:40:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Clive Page
But what happens if you have to catch a 3rd bus because the 2nd one is
terminated early? A couple of times recently on a bus that I've been
using the driver has had instructions sent in by radio to stop his
service prematurely, perhaps because of congestion or too many of the
same route number in a convoy. So I've had to get off and get on another
bus that is following the same route. This doesn't cause me more than
mild annoyance as I have a bus pass, but if you are using Oyster would
this be included in the 2nd-bus-within-an-hour concession, and if so how
does the system handle it?
One of the passengers - it usually seems to be me - gets given a paper
ticket by the driver of terminated bus covering everyone onboard, which
they use to transfer without touching in again.
The fun starts if the next bus is a different route number but going the
right way, so good enough for the passenger to reach their destination,
but its driver wants passengers to stand in the rain waiting for the
"right" bus to come along later.
They might do that if the next bus is only good for part of the route, thus
being acceptable to some, but not all transferring pax. But I doubt that
they do if the route is *exactly* the same (how often can that happen?)

tim
Post by Arthur Figgis
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Tony Dragon
2017-09-14 21:29:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Clive Page
         "If you COMPLETE ONE journey using pay as you go on a bus or
         tram, you can START a second bus or tram journey for free within
         one hour of first touching in."
         "If you MAKE A TOUCH-IN using pay as you go on a bus or tram,
         you can MAKE a second bus or tram TOUCH-IN for free within one
         hour of first touching in."
I agree its ambiguous, but the former is surely intended.
But what happens if you have to catch a 3rd bus because the 2nd one is
terminated early?    A couple of times recently on a bus that I've been
using the driver has had instructions sent in by radio to stop his
service prematurely, perhaps because of congestion or too many of the
same route number in a convoy.  So I've had to get off and get on
another bus that is following the same route.  This doesn't cause me
more than mild annoyance as I have a bus pass, but if you are using
Oyster would this be included in the 2nd-bus-within-an-hour concession,
and if so how does the system handle it?
Ask for a continue ticket from the first bus, usually he will issue one
ticket that covers all the transferring passengers.

---
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s***@potato.field
2017-09-14 08:48:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 21:29:45 +0100
Post by Recliner
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 19:35:36 +0100, "Richard J."
Post by Richard J.
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:54:33 +0100, Neil Williams
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
To me, making a bus journey means getting on the bus, riding the bus
and getting off again.
TfL does not share your interpretation.
If you touch in on the second bus within one hour of touching in on the
first bus, you are not charged and the journey can be completed in
whatever amount of time it takes.
Is this documented somewhere?
It's not in the TfL Conditions of Carriage (12 Sep 2016). Section 6.8.6 says
"If you make a journey using pay as you go on a bus or tram, you can make a
second bus or tram journey for free within one hour of first touching in." As
has been noted already, that is ambiguous.
I don't find it ambiguous at all. To me, it's perfectly clear that it
means your second touch-in will be free if it's within 60 minutes of
the first.
Currently the only useful think Kahn/Khan/Little Squirt has done in his
tenure as mayor.

--
Spud
Recliner
2017-09-14 13:04:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 21:29:45 +0100
Post by Recliner
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 19:35:36 +0100, "Richard J."
Post by Richard J.
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:54:33 +0100, Neil Williams
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
To me, making a bus journey means getting on the bus, riding the bus
and getting off again.
TfL does not share your interpretation.
If you touch in on the second bus within one hour of touching in on the
first bus, you are not charged and the journey can be completed in
whatever amount of time it takes.
Is this documented somewhere?
It's not in the TfL Conditions of Carriage (12 Sep 2016). Section 6.8.6 says
"If you make a journey using pay as you go on a bus or tram, you can make a
second bus or tram journey for free within one hour of first touching in." As
has been noted already, that is ambiguous.
I don't find it ambiguous at all. To me, it's perfectly clear that it
means your second touch-in will be free if it's within 60 minutes of
the first.
Currently the only useful think Kahn/Khan/Little Squirt has done in his
tenure as mayor.
Some people might also value the TfL fares freeze he implemented.
Roland Perry
2017-09-14 13:22:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
Currently the only useful think Kahn/Khan/Little Squirt has done in his
tenure as mayor.
Some people might also value the TfL fares freeze he implemented.
Even more probably resent the sleight of hand by which he promised to
"freeze fares in London", and then didn't freeze a great number of fares
on account of them having a non-TfL element.
--
Roland Perry
Paul Corfield
2017-09-17 23:59:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
With Sadiq Khan’s ‘Hopper’ fare in effect, what should you do if the
second journey takes you over the one hour limit? Will you have to go
forward and touch your card again?
--
jhk
As others have said the system works solely, on buses and trams, on when you touch in. Provided the second touch in is within the advertised 60 [1] minutes you will not be charged. While I understand your query about the written language used the Oyster system is using a long established feature that allowed for through tram to bus tickets in the New Addington area. This is why the "Hopper ticket" was launched so quickly after Mr Khan became Mayor - it was just a case of entering different modal info into the system.

The more complex "unlimited bus/tram rides within 1 hour" and "get second bus ride free after a tube/DLR/Train/Overground journey if within 1 hour" functionality is new and is planned for introduction in "early 2018" which I assume means the January Fares Revision. I also assume TfL are sufficiently confident in the software changes that they are testing it now (or will after the Sept fares revision [2]) before having to freeze system changes to allow for the main Jan Fares revision (Travelcard and NR price changes).

[1] in reality the system parameter is 70 mins but TfL don't advertise this. It gives a little bit of "flex" in case the second bus runs late and also covers where services run at 30 min headways and may not always run precisely to time.
[2] yes there is a Sept fares change. It usually affects fares to / from Watford Junction plus some other minor tweaks by the TOCs.
--
Paul C
via Google
Recliner
2017-09-18 00:30:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Paul Corfield
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
With Sadiq Khan’s ‘Hopper’ fare in effect, what should you do if the
second journey takes you over the one hour limit? Will you have to go
forward and touch your card again?
--
jhk
As others have said the system works solely, on buses and trams, on when
you touch in. Provided the second touch in is within the advertised 60
[1] minutes you will not be charged. While I understand your query about
the written language used the Oyster system is using a long established
feature that allowed for through tram to bus tickets in the New Addington
area. This is why the "Hopper ticket" was launched so quickly after Mr
Khan became Mayor - it was just a case of entering different modal info into the system.
The more complex "unlimited bus/tram rides within 1 hour" and "get second
bus ride free after a tube/DLR/Train/Overground journey if within 1 hour"
functionality is new and is planned for introduction in "early 2018"
which I assume means the January Fares Revision. I also assume TfL are
sufficiently confident in the software changes that they are testing it
now (or will after the Sept fares revision [2]) before having to freeze
system changes to allow for the main Jan Fares revision (Travelcard and NR price changes).
[1] in reality the system parameter is 70 mins but TfL don't advertise
this. It gives a little bit of "flex" in case the second bus runs late
and also covers where services run at 30 min headways and may not always
run precisely to time.
[2] yes there is a Sept fares change. It usually affects fares to / from
Watford Junction plus some other minor tweaks by the TOCs.
Thanks, Paul. Interesting information, as always from you.
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