Discussion:
Epping to Ongar QEII Beer Festival
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Offramp
2017-06-08 12:15:47 UTC
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http://eorailway.co.uk/events/real-ale/

28th, 29th and 30th July 2017.

Celebrating 60 years (apparently) since the Epping-North Weald-Ongar line first opened.

Steam Trains, of course, but the poster in London Drinker shows what looks like an old solver Northern Line train - was it '68 stock?

The price, whatever it is, includes heritage buses from Epping and Shenfield.

So there is a lot there for transport and beer fans.
David C
2017-06-08 18:36:21 UTC
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On Thu, 8 Jun 2017 05:15:47 -0700 (PDT), Offramp
Post by Offramp
http://eorailway.co.uk/events/real-ale/
28th, 29th and 30th July 2017.
Celebrating 60 years (apparently) since the Epping-North Weald-Ongar line first opened.
Steam Trains, of course, but the poster in London Drinker shows what looks like an old solver Northern Line train - was it '68 stock?
The price, whatever it is, includes heritage buses from Epping and Shenfield.
So there is a lot there for transport and beer fans.
Are you serious?

This was the furthest outpost of the Central Line, served by 59/60
stock, even though it's always been a country branch line.

It's a nice little railway, steam & diesel traction with a very useful
connecting bus service to get you there from Epping Underground
Station & possibly Shenfield too.

The buses are around because the railway's owner owns the bus company
too...........

No idea about beer but theres a nice pub near Ongar Station.

DC

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Offramp
2017-06-08 19:04:08 UTC
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Post by David C
On Thu, 8 Jun 2017 05:15:47 -0700 (PDT), Offramp
Post by Offramp
http://eorailway.co.uk/events/real-ale/
28th, 29th and 30th July 2017.
Celebrating 60 years (apparently) since the Epping-North Weald-Ongar line first opened.
Steam Trains, of course, but the poster in London Drinker shows what looks like an old solver Northern Line train - was it '68 stock?
The price, whatever it is, includes heritage buses from Epping and Shenfield.
So there is a lot there for transport and beer fans.
Are you serious?
Here is the article, from the current London Drinker:

The Epping Ongar Railway will present over 65 beers at
its summer festival this July to celebrate 60 years since
the tube train first trundled through the Essex countryside.
What could be a better setting for a good ale than a
panoramic view of the rolling hills and unique woodlands of
Epping Forest? From 28 to 30 July, North Weald station and
the heritage trains of the Epping Ongar Railway will again
ring out to the sound of clinking glasses. Our 5th beer
festival is planned to be the biggest and the best yet.
What’s more, with regular and direct vintage bus services
from Epping Underground and Shenfield National Rail, the
festival is one of the most accessible rail ale festivals near
London.
The team started planning once the 83 casks from their
2016 festival had all been collected. Taking inspiration from
the 60th anniversary of the first tube train arriving in Ongar,
beers with connections to Essex and London will feature
heavily, including some brewed especially for the event.
Once again in the evenings, the hills will come alive with the
sound of music, including at least one dedicated music train
each night. A full list of all the beer, cider, food and soft
drinks on offer will be published on the railway’s website in
advance.
As usual, the funds raised will be ploughed into
supporting the operation and maintenance of the classic
trains, some of which are now approaching 100 years old.
Additionally, the festival will be supporting a locally based
charity, Canalability, which organises broad beam canal boat
experiences for disabled and disadvantaged people.
For further information and to book tickets, take a look at
www.eorailway.co.uk.
Alan Perryman

see http://www.westmiddx-camra.org.uk/LD/2017/LDvol39_3.pdf
s***@potato.field
2017-06-09 08:40:15 UTC
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On Thu, 08 Jun 2017 19:36:21 +0100
Post by David C
This was the furthest outpost of the Central Line, served by 59/60
stock, even though it's always been a country branch line.
Given the distances people commute now, I can't help wondering if LU had
upgraded the line and given it a half decent , possibly even through service
instead of treating it like some part time afterthought, there might by now
be considerably more passengers on it than there were back when it was part of
LU. Ongar is a reasonably sized small town which if south of london on a
railway would be prime commuter belt territory.
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-06-09 08:44:06 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by David C
This was the furthest outpost of the Central Line, served by 59/60
stock, even though it's always been a country branch line.
Given the distances people commute now, I can't help wondering if LU had
upgraded the line and given it a half decent , possibly even through service
instead of treating it like some part time afterthought, there might by now
be considerably more passengers on it than there were back when it was part of
LU. Ongar is a reasonably sized small town which if south of london on a
railway would be prime commuter belt territory.
Ongar's not as big as you think, and the rail journey was very slow with
almost no additional catchment until Epping. It's far easier to drive to
Brentwood station.
--
Roland Perry
Basil Jet
2017-06-09 09:17:56 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by David C
This was the furthest outpost of the Central Line, served by 59/60
stock, even though it's always been a country branch line.
Given the distances people commute now, I can't help wondering if LU had
upgraded the line and given it a half decent , possibly even through service
instead of treating it like some part time afterthought, there might by now
be considerably more passengers on it than there were back when it was part of
LU. Ongar is a reasonably sized small town which if south of london on a
railway would be prime commuter belt territory.
Ongar's not as big as you think, and the rail journey was very slow with
almost no additional catchment until Epping. It's far easier to drive to
Brentwood station.
Or Shenfield, which has much faster trains to London.
Roland Perry
2017-06-09 09:45:23 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roland Perry
Ongar's not as big as you think, and the rail journey was very slow
with almost no additional catchment until Epping. It's far easier to
drive to Brentwood station.
Or Shenfield, which has much faster trains to London.
Having lived in the area for many years, Brentwood has a bigger and
cheaper car park, and more trains (if you count only the fasts at
Shenfield, and if you want a slow then why go out of your way to
Shenfield in the first place).
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-06-09 09:34:18 UTC
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On Fri, 9 Jun 2017 09:44:06 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by David C
This was the furthest outpost of the Central Line, served by 59/60
stock, even though it's always been a country branch line.
Given the distances people commute now, I can't help wondering if LU had
upgraded the line and given it a half decent , possibly even through service
instead of treating it like some part time afterthought, there might by now
be considerably more passengers on it than there were back when it was part of
LU. Ongar is a reasonably sized small town which if south of london on a
railway would be prime commuter belt territory.
Ongar's not as big as you think, and the rail journey was very slow with
~6000 people according to wikipedia, about the same as little chalfont on
the Met.
Post by Roland Perry
almost no additional catchment until Epping. It's far easier to drive to
Brentwood station.
Yes, the journey was slow because the trains were slow, infrequent and the
journey involved a change. If it had a similar service level to Epping however
I suspect it might be a different story. I doubt the traffic around Brentwood
is much fun and I suspect the parking at the station isn't free either assuming
there are any free spaces.
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-06-09 09:48:22 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 9 Jun 2017 09:44:06 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by David C
This was the furthest outpost of the Central Line, served by 59/60
stock, even though it's always been a country branch line.
Given the distances people commute now, I can't help wondering if LU had
upgraded the line and given it a half decent , possibly even through service
instead of treating it like some part time afterthought, there might by now
be considerably more passengers on it than there were back when it was part of
LU. Ongar is a reasonably sized small town which if south of london on a
railway would be prime commuter belt territory.
Ongar's not as big as you think, and the rail journey was very slow with
~6000 people according to wikipedia, about the same as little chalfont on
the Met.
The thing is, Little Chalfont isn't the only railhead on that stretch of
the Met.
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
almost no additional catchment until Epping. It's far easier to drive to
Brentwood station.
Yes, the journey was slow because the trains were slow, infrequent and the
journey involved a change. If it had a similar service level to Epping however
I suspect it might be a different story. I doubt the traffic around Brentwood
is much fun and I suspect the parking at the station isn't free either assuming
there are any free spaces.
It wouldn't be free at Ongar, either (it's £4.30 at Little Chalfont), if
it had the pipedream service you advocate.
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-06-09 10:50:26 UTC
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On Fri, 9 Jun 2017 10:48:22 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
It wouldn't be free at Ongar, either (it's £4.30 at Little Chalfont), if
it had the pipedream service you advocate.
Obviously its a pipedream since its never going to happen now. No harm in
playing what-ifs though. Improved train services tend to drive greater
passenger numbers. Removing a train service from a town even if it is only
6K people is a backwards step and not something a public body should have
done IMO.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-06-09 11:06:53 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 9 Jun 2017 10:48:22 +0100
It wouldn't be free at Ongar, either (it's 」4.30 at Little Chalfont), if
it had the pipedream service you advocate.
Obviously its a pipedream since its never going to happen now. No harm in
playing what-ifs though. Improved train services tend to drive greater
passenger numbers. Removing a train service from a town even if it is only
6K people is a backwards step and not something a public body should have
done IMO.
Thanks to the Green Belt, the small number of people in the catchment area
wasn't going to grow, and there are better ways to commute from the wider
area.

The line would have needed serious investment in order to run more
frequent, full length, direct London trains. Would you, as a London
taxpayer, wanted to have paid for more Essex residents to have heavily
subsidised travel into the already packed core Central line? Wouldn't your
generous offer of a large personal donation be better spent increasing the
central area capacity?
s***@potato.field
2017-06-09 12:53:35 UTC
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On Fri, 9 Jun 2017 11:06:53 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
The line would have needed serious investment in order to run more
frequent, full length, direct London trains. Would you, as a London
taxpayer, wanted to have paid for more Essex residents to have heavily
subsidised travel into the already packed core Central line? Wouldn't your
generous offer of a large personal donation be better spent increasing the
central area capacity?
Given there's currently a very expensive and fairly pointless scheme to link
the Met to watford junction I don't think improving Ongar would have been
completely beyond the pale especially if Essex CC had coughed up some dough.
I suspect a large number of the outer areas of the tube dont pay their way
and if you just concentrated on core services you'd end up with something like
the Paris metro - great service in the centre, not so much in the suburbs.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-06-09 13:15:56 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 9 Jun 2017 11:06:53 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
The line would have needed serious investment in order to run more
frequent, full length, direct London trains. Would you, as a London
taxpayer, wanted to have paid for more Essex residents to have heavily
subsidised travel into the already packed core Central line? Wouldn't your
generous offer of a large personal donation be better spent increasing the
central area capacity?
Given there's currently a very expensive and fairly pointless scheme to link
the Met to watford junction I don't think improving Ongar would have been
completely beyond the pale especially if Essex CC had coughed up some dough.
I suspect a large number of the outer areas of the tube dont pay their way
and if you just concentrated on core services you'd end up with something like
the Paris metro - great service in the centre, not so much in the suburbs.
The LU policy is now to concentrate on the core area, and new
extensions are likely only to be in urban areas within London, not
rural branches. Haven't you noticed that the Watford Met extension has
stalled?
s***@potato.field
2017-06-09 14:49:56 UTC
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On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:15:56 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
Given there's currently a very expensive and fairly pointless scheme to link
the Met to watford junction I don't think improving Ongar would have been
completely beyond the pale especially if Essex CC had coughed up some dough.
I suspect a large number of the outer areas of the tube dont pay their way
and if you just concentrated on core services you'd end up with something like
the Paris metro - great service in the centre, not so much in the suburbs.
The LU policy is now to concentrate on the core area, and new
extensions are likely only to be in urban areas within London, not
rural branches. Haven't you noticed that the Watford Met extension has
stalled?
I not up to date on it but I can't say I'm surprised. I can't see any viable
case for it. No one travelling into central london from watford junction is
going go around the houses on the met if they can get the Overground direct
and I can't imagine there's a huge demand for commuters to/from the western
area of the met to there.
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-06-09 13:28:38 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
It wouldn't be free at Ongar, either (it's £4.30 at Little Chalfont), if
it had the pipedream service you advocate.
Obviously its a pipedream since its never going to happen now. No harm in
playing what-ifs though. Improved train services tend to drive greater
passenger numbers. Removing a train service from a town even if it is only
6K people is a backwards step and not something a public body should have
done IMO.
Even if the service is hopelessly uneconomic and requiring a huge
subsidy?
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-06-09 14:50:32 UTC
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On Fri, 9 Jun 2017 14:28:38 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
It wouldn't be free at Ongar, either (it's £4.30 at Little Chalfont), if
it had the pipedream service you advocate.
Obviously its a pipedream since its never going to happen now. No harm in
playing what-ifs though. Improved train services tend to drive greater
passenger numbers. Removing a train service from a town even if it is only
6K people is a backwards step and not something a public body should have
done IMO.
Even if the service is hopelessly uneconomic and requiring a huge
subsidy?
You mean like Mill Hill East was on the northern line for years until new
estates were built there?
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-06-09 15:33:09 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
It wouldn't be free at Ongar, either (it's £4.30 at Little Chalfont), if
it had the pipedream service you advocate.
Obviously its a pipedream since its never going to happen now. No harm in
playing what-ifs though. Improved train services tend to drive greater
passenger numbers. Removing a train service from a town even if it is only
6K people is a backwards step and not something a public body should have
done IMO.
Even if the service is hopelessly uneconomic and requiring a huge
subsidy?
You mean like Mill Hill East was on the northern line for years until new
estates were built there?
Planning law has moved on.
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-06-09 15:44:54 UTC
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On Fri, 9 Jun 2017 16:33:09 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
It wouldn't be free at Ongar, either (it's £4.30 at Little Chalfont), if
it had the pipedream service you advocate.
Obviously its a pipedream since its never going to happen now. No harm in
playing what-ifs though. Improved train services tend to drive greater
passenger numbers. Removing a train service from a town even if it is only
6K people is a backwards step and not something a public body should have
done IMO.
Even if the service is hopelessly uneconomic and requiring a huge
subsidy?
You mean like Mill Hill East was on the northern line for years until new
estates were built there?
Planning law has moved on.
The point is that just because part of the tube runs at a loss doesn't mean
it should be closed down. Its a public service, not a for profit corporation.
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-06-09 16:30:51 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
It wouldn't be free at Ongar, either (it's £4.30 at Little Chalfont), if
it had the pipedream service you advocate.
Obviously its a pipedream since its never going to happen now. No harm in
playing what-ifs though. Improved train services tend to drive greater
passenger numbers. Removing a train service from a town even if it is only
6K people is a backwards step and not something a public body should have
done IMO.
Even if the service is hopelessly uneconomic and requiring a huge
subsidy?
You mean like Mill Hill East was on the northern line for years until new
estates were built there?
Planning law has moved on.
The point is that just because part of the tube runs at a loss doesn't mean
it should be closed down. Its a public service, not a for profit corporation.
Still needs to serve a cost-effective portion of the public.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-06-09 09:45:39 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 9 Jun 2017 09:44:06 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by David C
This was the furthest outpost of the Central Line, served by 59/60
stock, even though it's always been a country branch line.
Given the distances people commute now, I can't help wondering if LU had
upgraded the line and given it a half decent , possibly even through service
instead of treating it like some part time afterthought, there might by now
be considerably more passengers on it than there were back when it was part of
LU. Ongar is a reasonably sized small town which if south of london on a
railway would be prime commuter belt territory.
Ongar's not as big as you think, and the rail journey was very slow with
~6000 people according to wikipedia, about the same as little chalfont on
the Met.
Post by Roland Perry
almost no additional catchment until Epping. It's far easier to drive to
Brentwood station.
Yes, the journey was slow because the trains were slow, infrequent and the
journey involved a change. If it had a similar service level to Epping however
I suspect it might be a different story. I doubt the traffic around Brentwood
is much fun and I suspect the parking at the station isn't free either assuming
there are any free spaces.
I think the Green Belt put paid to that branch, just as it killed off other
remote Tube expansion plans.
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-06-09 13:14:14 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 9 Jun 2017 09:44:06 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by David C
This was the furthest outpost of the Central Line, served by 59/60
stock, even though it's always been a country branch line.
Given the distances people commute now, I can't help wondering if LU had
upgraded the line and given it a half decent , possibly even through service
instead of treating it like some part time afterthought, there might by now
be considerably more passengers on it than there were back when it was part of
LU. Ongar is a reasonably sized small town which if south of london on a
railway would be prime commuter belt territory.
Ongar's not as big as you think, and the rail journey was very slow with
~6000 people according to wikipedia, about the same as little chalfont on
the Met.
Post by Roland Perry
almost no additional catchment until Epping. It's far easier to drive to
Brentwood station.
Yes, the journey was slow because the trains were slow, infrequent and the
journey involved a change. If it had a similar service level to Epping however
I suspect it might be a different story. I doubt the traffic around Brentwood
is much fun and I suspect the parking at the station isn't free either assuming
there are any free spaces.
I think the Green Belt put paid to that branch, just as it killed off other
remote Tube expansion plans.
Like what?
Recliner
2017-06-09 13:50:24 UTC
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Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 9 Jun 2017 09:44:06 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by David C
This was the furthest outpost of the Central Line, served by 59/60
stock, even though it's always been a country branch line.
Given the distances people commute now, I can't help wondering if LU had
upgraded the line and given it a half decent , possibly even through service
instead of treating it like some part time afterthought, there might by now
be considerably more passengers on it than there were back when it was part of
LU. Ongar is a reasonably sized small town which if south of london on a
railway would be prime commuter belt territory.
Ongar's not as big as you think, and the rail journey was very slow with
~6000 people according to wikipedia, about the same as little chalfont on
the Met.
Post by Roland Perry
almost no additional catchment until Epping. It's far easier to drive to
Brentwood station.
Yes, the journey was slow because the trains were slow, infrequent and the
journey involved a change. If it had a similar service level to Epping however
I suspect it might be a different story. I doubt the traffic around Brentwood
is much fun and I suspect the parking at the station isn't free either assuming
there are any free spaces.
I think the Green Belt put paid to that branch, just as it killed off other
remote Tube expansion plans.
Like what?
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.
s***@potato.field
2017-06-09 14:54:19 UTC
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On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100
Post by Recliner
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.
Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighted move
ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only has bus
connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A branch of the
northern line would transform it into one of the most desirable suburbs in
London (given the view and other facilities) and probably send the house
prices stratospheric.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-06-09 15:12:49 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100
Post by Recliner
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.
Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighted move
ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only has bus
connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A branch of the
northern line would transform it into one of the most desirable suburbs in
London (given the view and other facilities) and probably send the house
prices stratospheric.
Yes, I think that extension should have happened.
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-06-09 15:51:58 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100
Post by Recliner
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.
Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighted move
ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only has bus
connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A branch of the
northern line would transform it into one of the most desirable suburbs in
London (given the view and other facilities) and probably send the house
prices stratospheric.
Yes, I think that extension should have happened.
Any chance now of reviving that project?
Recliner
2017-06-09 15:57:16 UTC
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Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100
Post by Recliner
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.
Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighted move
ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only has bus
connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A branch of the
northern line would transform it into one of the most desirable suburbs in
London (given the view and other facilities) and probably send the house
prices stratospheric.
Yes, I think that extension should have happened.
Any chance now of reviving that project?
No, it's been superseded by other idea.
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-06-09 22:49:08 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100
Post by Recliner
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.
Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighted move
ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only has bus
connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A branch of the
northern line would transform it into one of the most desirable suburbs in
London (given the view and other facilities) and probably send the house
prices stratospheric.
Yes, I think that extension should have happened.
Any chance now of reviving that project?
No, it's been superseded by other idea.
Such as?
Recliner
2017-06-09 23:34:57 UTC
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Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100
Post by Recliner
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.
Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighted move
ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only has bus
connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A branch of the
northern line would transform it into one of the most desirable suburbs in
London (given the view and other facilities) and probably send the house
prices stratospheric.
Yes, I think that extension should have happened.
Any chance now of reviving that project?
No, it's been superseded by other idea.
Such as?
The Bakerloo and already-underway Northern line extensions south of the
river; rebuilding Bank for more capacity; Crossrail 2; splitting the
Northern line into two lines; Barking Riverside.
Robin9
2017-06-10 10:17:25 UTC
Permalink
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +010
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandr
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.
Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighte
mov
ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only ha
bu
connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A branch of th
northern line would transform it into one of the most desirable suburb
i
London (given the view and other facilities) and probably send the hous
prices stratospheric
--
Spu
It wasn't closed by London Transport. The tube never went there
London Underground took over only the stretch between Highgate
and Barnet.

Alexander Palace was the terminus of the branch line from Finsbur
Park and was closed by British Rail in the early/mid 1950s. The trac
be
between Finsbury Park and Highgate is now a public footpath


--
Robin9
r***@cix.co.uk
2017-06-11 01:02:35 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.-
Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighted
move ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only
has bus connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A
branch of the northern line would transform it into one of the most
desirable suburbs in London (given the view and other facilities) and
probably send the house prices stratospheric.
It wasn't closed by London Transport. The tube never went there.
London Underground took over only the stretch between Highgate
and Barnet.
Alexander Palace was the terminus of the branch line from Finsbury
Park and was closed by British Rail in the early/mid 1950s. The track bed
between Finsbury Park and Highgate is now a public footpath.
That's a bit economical with the truth. It was included in the 1935-40 plan
and considerable works were done by London Transport, including Highgate
station, cabling and some conductor rail installations. The residual train
service was provided by BR but then so was it to Epping and Ongar until 1957.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Robin9
2017-06-11 09:28:52 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +010
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandr
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.
Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorte
sighte
move ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb tha
onl
has bus connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour.
branch of the northern line would transform it into one of the most
desirable suburbs in London (given the view and other facilities) and
probably send the house prices stratospheric.
It wasn't closed by London Transport. The tube never went there
London Underground took over only the stretch between Highgate
and Barnet.
Alexander Palace was the terminus of the branch line from Finsbur
Park and was closed by British Rail in the early/mid 1950s. The trac
be
between Finsbury Park and Highgate is now a public footpath.
That's a bit economical with the truth. It was included in the 1935-4
plan
and considerable works were done by London Transport, including Highgat
station, cabling and some conductor rail installations. The residua
train
service was provided by BR but then so was it to Epping and Ongar unti
1957
--
Colin Rosenstie
With all due respect, the fact that London Transport did some
preparatory work does not mean very much. That work came t
nothing. London Underground did not take over the line t
Alexander Palace which was closed by BR in July 1954

Spud's point is that closing the line was foolish. Certainly today,
in today's political climate, no line would be closed. In 1954
attitudes and assumptions were quite different

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/m/muswell_hill/index.shtml
provides a good thumbnail history


--
Robin9
r***@cix.co.uk
2017-06-11 10:42:17 UTC
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Post by Robin9
With all due respect, the fact that London Transport did some
preparatory work does not mean very much. That work came to
nothing. London Underground did not take over the line to
Alexander Palace which was closed by BR in July 1954.
It was a lot more than preparatory work. Have you ever looked at Highgate
station? It was close to ready for trains to run. London Underground didn't
take over the Ongar train service before 1957 but they had taken over the
line long before then.
Post by Robin9
Spud's point is that closing the line was foolish. Certainly today,
in today's political climate, no line would be closed. In 1954
attitudes and assumptions were quite different.
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/m/muswell_hill/index.shtml
provides a good thumbnail history.
Yes, some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2017-06-11 11:03:57 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.co.uk
some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s.
Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those!
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.co.uk
2017-06-11 13:01:41 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s.
Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those!
Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2017-06-11 16:03:31 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s.
Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those!
Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead.
I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the least
worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.co.uk
2017-06-12 00:25:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s.
Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those!
Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead.
I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the
least worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys.
In London? Are you mad??!!
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Someone Somewhere
2017-06-12 07:14:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s.
Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those!
Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead.
I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the
least worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys.
In London? Are you mad??!!
Even those of us who live in London, sometimes like to leave London and
apparently places in the provincess aren't as well served by public
transport.
r***@cix.co.uk
2017-06-12 15:35:11 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s.
Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those!
Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead.
I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the
least worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys.
In London? Are you mad??!!
Even those of us who live in London, sometimes like to leave London
and apparently places in the provincess aren't as well served by
public transport.
Sure, but what would the ringways have to do with that? They would only have
sent you round and round not out.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2017-06-12 16:29:36 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s.
Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those!
Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead.
I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the
least worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys.
In London? Are you mad??!!
Even those of us who live in London, sometimes like to leave London
and apparently places in the provincess aren't as well served by
public transport.
Sure, but what would the ringways have to do with that? They would only have
sent you round and round not out.
It had numerous spokes, too.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2017-06-12 07:46:39 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s.
Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those!
Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead.
I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the
least worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys.
In London? Are you mad??!!
No. Avoiding London, which is what the Ringways were for.
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-06-12 08:35:03 UTC
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Raw Message
On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 08:46:39 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s.
Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those!
Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead.
I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the
least worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys.
In London? Are you mad??!!
No. Avoiding London, which is what the Ringways were for.
I'm not sure you can say with a straight face that the north circular avoids
london given its about 5 miles inside it!

--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-06-12 10:14:54 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s.
Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those!
Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead.
I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the
least worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys.
In London? Are you mad??!!
No. Avoiding London, which is what the Ringways were for.
I'm not sure you can say with a straight face that the north circular avoids
london given its about 5 miles inside it!
It avoids a great deal of London, such as Hampstead and Cricklewood.

On the other hand the South Circular is known as "a collection of
signposts" rather than a road which avoids anything.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.co.uk
2017-06-12 15:35:12 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 08:46:39 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s.
Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those!
Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead.
I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the
least worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys.
In London? Are you mad??!!
No. Avoiding London, which is what the Ringways were for.
I'm not sure you can say with a straight face that the north circular
avoids london given its about 5 miles inside it!
And certainly not ringways 1 & 2 which were within or close to the North &
South Circulars.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Recliner
2017-06-12 15:42:46 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 08:46:39 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s.
Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those!
Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead.
I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the
least worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys.
In London? Are you mad??!!
No. Avoiding London, which is what the Ringways were for.
I'm not sure you can say with a straight face that the north circular
avoids london given its about 5 miles inside it!
And certainly not ringways 1 & 2 which were within or close to the North &
South Circulars.
If you lived in south London and wanted to head for the M1, they'd help you
avoid central London. Similarly, I live in northwest London, well inside
the M25, but still use it to get to the M23 and Gatwick, or the M11 and
Stansted. Before it existed, I had to drive through London.
s***@potato.field
2017-06-12 08:32:21 UTC
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On Sun, 11 Jun 2017 05:42:17 -0500
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Robin9
With all due respect, the fact that London Transport did some
preparatory work does not mean very much. That work came to
nothing. London Underground did not take over the line to
Alexander Palace which was closed by BR in July 1954.
It was a lot more than preparatory work. Have you ever looked at Highgate
station? It was close to ready for trains to run. London Underground didn't
take over the Ongar train service before 1957 but they had taken over the
line long before then.
As an aside, if you walk along the parkland walk now you can still see the
old concrete cable posts that LT put in. Reinstating the line is not beyond
the bounds of possibility - the trackbed is still mostly clear apart from
one nursery school at muswell hill which could be relocated 10 metres sideways
to avoid the line. I suppose the only really issue is that now running to
moorgate isn't an option it would have to be a shuttle service terminating at
highgate high level which wouldn't be ideal in the rush hour though I suspect
a lot more desirable than the current bus service to wood green option.
--
Spud
Robin9
2017-06-12 08:14:25 UTC
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Post by Robin9
-
With all due respect, the fact that London Transport did some
preparatory work does not mean very much. That work came to
nothing. London Underground did not take over the line to
Alexander Palace which was closed by BR in July 1954.-
It was a lot more than preparatory work. Have you ever looked a
Highgate
station? It was close to ready for trains to run. London Undergroun
didn't
take over the Ongar train service before 1957 but they had taken ove
the
line long before then.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
I have been to Highgate Station several times. I'm wondering
what you're seeing that I'm not.

If one stands at the Priory Gardens entrance, the dilapidated
remnants of the original station are clearly visible. Access to
the Northern Line involves walking under them. Any plan
London Underground might have had to take over the branch
to Ally Pally would not have incorporated using the original
station. It would have involved branching off from their own
Underground station and joining the original track where it runs
alongside Highgate Wood. (Still today in Highgate Wood there is
a demarcation fence separating the wood from the railway land


--
Robin9
s***@potato.field
2017-06-12 09:48:07 UTC
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On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 09:14:25 +0100
Post by Robin9
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
It was a lot more than preparatory work. Have you ever looked at Highgate
station? It was close to ready for trains to run. London Underground didn't
take over the Ongar train service before 1957 but they had taken over the
line long before then.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
I have been to Highgate Station several times. I'm wondering
what you're seeing that I'm not.
If one stands at the Priory Gardens entrance, the dilapidated
remnants of the original station are clearly visible. Access to
Thats not the original station, LT rebuilt it AFAIK.
Post by Robin9
the Northern Line involves walking under them. Any plan
London Underground might have had to take over the branch
to Ally Pally would not have incorporated using the original
station. It would have involved branching off from their own
Underground station and joining the original track where it runs
alongside Highgate Wood. (Still today in Highgate Wood there is
a demarcation fence separating the wood from the railway land)
You're 'avin a laff. The track gradient would probably have to be about 45
degrees to get from highgate low level to the track before the palace branch!
--
Spud
Robin9
2017-06-13 22:01:10 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 09:14:25 +0100
It was a lot more than preparatory work. Have you ever looked at Highgate
station? It was close to ready for trains to run. London Underground didn't
take over the Ongar train service before 1957 but they had taken over the
line long before then.
--
Colin Rosenstiel-
I have been to Highgate Station several times. I'm wondering
what you're seeing that I'm not.
If one stands at the Priory Gardens entrance, the dilapidated
remnants of the original station are clearly visible. Access to -
Thats not the original station, LT rebuilt it AFAIK.
-
the Northern Line involves walking under them. Any plan
London Underground might have had to take over the branch
to Ally Pally would not have incorporated using the original
station. It would have involved branching off from their own
Underground station and joining the original track where it runs
alongside Highgate Wood. (Still today in Highgate Wood there is
a demarcation fence separating the wood from the railway land)-
You're 'avin a laff. The track gradient would probably have to be abou
45
degrees to get from highgate low level to the track before the palac
branch!
--
Spud
David Walters' post says the original plan was to use the Great
Northern station. (Mind you, plans often change. The original
plan for the Victoria Line was that it would start in Croydon and
end up in Chingford)

However, the line from Highgate Station around the north side of
Highgate Wood was in a deep, deep cutting, which is probably
why the fence is maintained in such good order. Climbing from
the Underground Station to a convenient place in that cutting
would have been manageable


--
Robin9
David Walters
2017-06-12 10:10:45 UTC
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Post by Robin9
Post by Robin9
-
With all due respect, the fact that London Transport did some
preparatory work does not mean very much. That work came to
nothing. London Underground did not take over the line to
Alexander Palace which was closed by BR in July 1954.-
It was a lot more than preparatory work. Have you ever looked at Highgate
station? It was close to ready for trains to run. London Underground didn't
take over the Ongar train service before 1957 but they had taken over the
line long before then.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
I have been to Highgate Station several times. I'm wondering
what you're seeing that I'm not.
If one stands at the Priory Gardens entrance, the dilapidated
remnants of the original station are clearly visible. Access to
the Northern Line involves walking under them. Any plan
London Underground might have had to take over the branch
to Ally Pally would not have incorporated using the original
station. It would have involved branching off from their own
Underground station and joining the original track where it runs
alongside Highgate Wood. (Still today in Highgate Wood there is
a demarcation fence separating the wood from the railway land)
The 1930s plan was for trains from Finsbury Park to run through
Highgate high level platforms and then onto East Finchley or Ally
Pally. The route from Archway doesn't surface until well past
the turn off to Ally Pally. There is a map of the planned route at
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/highgate/ along with photos of the
high level platforms showing the new platform buildings built in 1940/41.

If you stood on the high level platforms around 25 years ago you could
walk down the stairs and see into the back of some of the underground
offices.
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-06-11 19:02:30 UTC
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Post by Robin9
Post by s***@potato.field
-
On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.-
Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighted
move ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only
has bus connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A
branch of the northern line would transform it into one of the most
desirable suburbs in London (given the view and other facilities) and
probably send the house prices stratospheric.-
It wasn't closed by London Transport. The tube never went there.
London Underground took over only the stretch between Highgate
and Barnet.
Alexander Palace was the terminus of the branch line from Finsbury
Park and was closed by British Rail in the early/mid 1950s. The track bed
between Finsbury Park and Highgate is now a public footpath.-
That's a bit economical with the truth. It was included in the 1935-40 plan
and considerable works were done by London Transport, including Highgate
station, cabling and some conductor rail installations. The residual train
service was provided by BR but then so was it to Epping and Ongar until 1957.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
With all due respect, the fact that London Transport did some
preparatory work does not mean very much. That work came to
nothing. London Underground did not take over the line to
Alexander Palace which was closed by BR in July 1954.
Spud's point is that closing the line was foolish. Certainly today,
in today's political climate, no line would be closed. In 1954
attitudes and assumptions were quite different.
Reminds me of South Kentish Town; They closed the station on a whim,
AIUI, due to low passenger volumes.

I would ask about the prospects of reactivating that station, but I know
that they are less than zero.
Recliner
2017-06-11 20:03:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Robin9
Post by s***@potato.field
-
On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.-
Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighted
move ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only
has bus connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A
branch of the northern line would transform it into one of the most
desirable suburbs in London (given the view and other facilities) and
probably send the house prices stratospheric.-
It wasn't closed by London Transport. The tube never went there.
London Underground took over only the stretch between Highgate
and Barnet.
Alexander Palace was the terminus of the branch line from Finsbury
Park and was closed by British Rail in the early/mid 1950s. The track bed
between Finsbury Park and Highgate is now a public footpath.-
That's a bit economical with the truth. It was included in the 1935-40 plan
and considerable works were done by London Transport, including Highgate
station, cabling and some conductor rail installations. The residual train
service was provided by BR but then so was it to Epping and Ongar until 1957.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
With all due respect, the fact that London Transport did some
preparatory work does not mean very much. That work came to
nothing. London Underground did not take over the line to
Alexander Palace which was closed by BR in July 1954.
Spud's point is that closing the line was foolish. Certainly today,
in today's political climate, no line would be closed. In 1954
attitudes and assumptions were quite different.
Reminds me of South Kentish Town; They closed the station on a whim,
AIUI, due to low passenger volumes.
I would ask about the prospects of reactivating that station, but I know
that they are less than zero.
Yes, I don't think any of the Tube stations that were closed early in their
lives because of low traffic have been reopened. Perhaps the one with the
best, albeit still very low, chance of reopening is York Road on the Picc,
thanks to all the new developments on the former Kings Cross railway lands.
The demand would be there, but the cost of reopening it to modern standards
would be high and the extra stop would slow down evry train on the line. In
any case, modern lines, such as the Victoria and JLE, have more widely
spaced stations than the Edwardian Yerkes tubes, which didn't run as far
out into the suburbs.
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-06-11 22:16:48 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Robin9
Post by s***@potato.field
-
On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.-
Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighted
move ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only
has bus connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A
branch of the northern line would transform it into one of the most
desirable suburbs in London (given the view and other facilities) and
probably send the house prices stratospheric.-
It wasn't closed by London Transport. The tube never went there.
London Underground took over only the stretch between Highgate
and Barnet.
Alexander Palace was the terminus of the branch line from Finsbury
Park and was closed by British Rail in the early/mid 1950s. The track bed
between Finsbury Park and Highgate is now a public footpath.-
That's a bit economical with the truth. It was included in the 1935-40 plan
and considerable works were done by London Transport, including Highgate
station, cabling and some conductor rail installations. The residual train
service was provided by BR but then so was it to Epping and Ongar until 1957.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
With all due respect, the fact that London Transport did some
preparatory work does not mean very much. That work came to
nothing. London Underground did not take over the line to
Alexander Palace which was closed by BR in July 1954.
Spud's point is that closing the line was foolish. Certainly today,
in today's political climate, no line would be closed. In 1954
attitudes and assumptions were quite different.
Reminds me of South Kentish Town; They closed the station on a whim,
AIUI, due to low passenger volumes.
I would ask about the prospects of reactivating that station, but I know
that they are less than zero.
Yes, I don't think any of the Tube stations that were closed early in their
lives because of low traffic have been reopened. Perhaps the one with the
best, albeit still very low, chance of reopening is York Road on the Picc,
thanks to all the new developments on the former Kings Cross railway lands.
The demand would be there, but the cost of reopening it to modern standards
would be high
Well, the matrix for the station is there -- at least part of it.
Post by Recliner
and the extra stop would slow down evry train on the line.
So, adjust the schedules.
Recliner
2017-06-11 23:05:57 UTC
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Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Robin9
Post by s***@potato.field
-
On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.-
Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighted
move ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only
has bus connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A
branch of the northern line would transform it into one of the most
desirable suburbs in London (given the view and other facilities) and
probably send the house prices stratospheric.-
It wasn't closed by London Transport. The tube never went there.
London Underground took over only the stretch between Highgate
and Barnet.
Alexander Palace was the terminus of the branch line from Finsbury
Park and was closed by British Rail in the early/mid 1950s. The track bed
between Finsbury Park and Highgate is now a public footpath.-
That's a bit economical with the truth. It was included in the 1935-40 plan
and considerable works were done by London Transport, including Highgate
station, cabling and some conductor rail installations. The residual train
service was provided by BR but then so was it to Epping and Ongar until 1957.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
With all due respect, the fact that London Transport did some
preparatory work does not mean very much. That work came to
nothing. London Underground did not take over the line to
Alexander Palace which was closed by BR in July 1954.
Spud's point is that closing the line was foolish. Certainly today,
in today's political climate, no line would be closed. In 1954
attitudes and assumptions were quite different.
Reminds me of South Kentish Town; They closed the station on a whim,
AIUI, due to low passenger volumes.
I would ask about the prospects of reactivating that station, but I know
that they are less than zero.
Yes, I don't think any of the Tube stations that were closed early in their
lives because of low traffic have been reopened. Perhaps the one with the
best, albeit still very low, chance of reopening is York Road on the Picc,
thanks to all the new developments on the former Kings Cross railway lands.
The demand would be there, but the cost of reopening it to modern standards
would be high
Well, the matrix for the station is there -- at least part of it.
Escalators? Gates?
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
and the extra stop would slow down evry train on the line.
So, adjust the schedules.
Slowing down everyone's journey is the problem, not the scefule.
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-06-12 17:49:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Robin9
Post by s***@potato.field
-
On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.-
Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighted
move ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only
has bus connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A
branch of the northern line would transform it into one of the most
desirable suburbs in London (given the view and other facilities) and
probably send the house prices stratospheric.-
It wasn't closed by London Transport. The tube never went there.
London Underground took over only the stretch between Highgate
and Barnet.
Alexander Palace was the terminus of the branch line from Finsbury
Park and was closed by British Rail in the early/mid 1950s. The track bed
between Finsbury Park and Highgate is now a public footpath.-
That's a bit economical with the truth. It was included in the 1935-40 plan
and considerable works were done by London Transport, including Highgate
station, cabling and some conductor rail installations. The residual train
service was provided by BR but then so was it to Epping and Ongar until 1957.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
With all due respect, the fact that London Transport did some
preparatory work does not mean very much. That work came to
nothing. London Underground did not take over the line to
Alexander Palace which was closed by BR in July 1954.
Spud's point is that closing the line was foolish. Certainly today,
in today's political climate, no line would be closed. In 1954
attitudes and assumptions were quite different.
Reminds me of South Kentish Town; They closed the station on a whim,
AIUI, due to low passenger volumes.
I would ask about the prospects of reactivating that station, but I know
that they are less than zero.
Yes, I don't think any of the Tube stations that were closed early in their
lives because of low traffic have been reopened. Perhaps the one with the
best, albeit still very low, chance of reopening is York Road on the Picc,
thanks to all the new developments on the former Kings Cross railway lands.
The demand would be there, but the cost of reopening it to modern standards
would be high
Well, the matrix for the station is there -- at least part of it.
Escalators? Gates?
Oh, yes, absolutely. That all needs to go in and I am sure that they
would have to do much work on the concourse, if not practically rebuild
it from scratch.

I was referring to the platform level. The spot is already there.

Of course, you would have to build new platforms, redo the walls and
ceilings and possible even relay the ROW.
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
and the extra stop would slow down evry train on the line.
So, adjust the schedules.
Slowing down everyone's journey is the problem, not the scefule.
More trains? NT4L, perhaps?
Recliner
2017-06-12 19:17:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Robin9
Post by s***@potato.field
-
On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.-
Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighted
move ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only
has bus connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A
branch of the northern line would transform it into one of the most
desirable suburbs in London (given the view and other facilities) and
probably send the house prices stratospheric.-
It wasn't closed by London Transport. The tube never went there.
London Underground took over only the stretch between Highgate
and Barnet.
Alexander Palace was the terminus of the branch line from Finsbury
Park and was closed by British Rail in the early/mid 1950s. The track bed
between Finsbury Park and Highgate is now a public footpath.-
That's a bit economical with the truth. It was included in the 1935-40 plan
and considerable works were done by London Transport, including Highgate
station, cabling and some conductor rail installations. The residual train
service was provided by BR but then so was it to Epping and Ongar until 1957.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
With all due respect, the fact that London Transport did some
preparatory work does not mean very much. That work came to
nothing. London Underground did not take over the line to
Alexander Palace which was closed by BR in July 1954.
Spud's point is that closing the line was foolish. Certainly today,
in today's political climate, no line would be closed. In 1954
attitudes and assumptions were quite different.
Reminds me of South Kentish Town; They closed the station on a whim,
AIUI, due to low passenger volumes.
I would ask about the prospects of reactivating that station, but I know
that they are less than zero.
Yes, I don't think any of the Tube stations that were closed early in their
lives because of low traffic have been reopened. Perhaps the one with the
best, albeit still very low, chance of reopening is York Road on the Picc,
thanks to all the new developments on the former Kings Cross railway lands.
The demand would be there, but the cost of reopening it to modern standards
would be high
Well, the matrix for the station is there -- at least part of it.
Escalators? Gates?
Oh, yes, absolutely. That all needs to go in and I am sure that they
would have to do much work on the concourse, if not practically rebuild
it from scratch.
I was referring to the platform level. The spot is already there.
Of course, you would have to build new platforms, redo the walls and
ceilings and possible even relay the ROW.
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
and the extra stop would slow down evry train on the line.
So, adjust the schedules.
Slowing down everyone's journey is the problem, not the scefule.
More trains? NT4L, perhaps?
Or its successor, by the time the station is reopened.
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-06-12 21:04:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Robin9
Post by s***@potato.field
-
On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.-
Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighted
move ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only
has bus connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A
branch of the northern line would transform it into one of the most
desirable suburbs in London (given the view and other facilities) and
probably send the house prices stratospheric.-
It wasn't closed by London Transport. The tube never went there.
London Underground took over only the stretch between Highgate
and Barnet.
Alexander Palace was the terminus of the branch line from Finsbury
Park and was closed by British Rail in the early/mid 1950s. The track bed
between Finsbury Park and Highgate is now a public footpath.-
That's a bit economical with the truth. It was included in the 1935-40 plan
and considerable works were done by London Transport, including Highgate
station, cabling and some conductor rail installations. The residual train
service was provided by BR but then so was it to Epping and Ongar until 1957.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
With all due respect, the fact that London Transport did some
preparatory work does not mean very much. That work came to
nothing. London Underground did not take over the line to
Alexander Palace which was closed by BR in July 1954.
Spud's point is that closing the line was foolish. Certainly today,
in today's political climate, no line would be closed. In 1954
attitudes and assumptions were quite different.
Reminds me of South Kentish Town; They closed the station on a whim,
AIUI, due to low passenger volumes.
I would ask about the prospects of reactivating that station, but I know
that they are less than zero.
Yes, I don't think any of the Tube stations that were closed early in their
lives because of low traffic have been reopened. Perhaps the one with the
best, albeit still very low, chance of reopening is York Road on the Picc,
thanks to all the new developments on the former Kings Cross railway lands.
The demand would be there, but the cost of reopening it to modern standards
would be high
Well, the matrix for the station is there -- at least part of it.
Escalators? Gates?
Oh, yes, absolutely. That all needs to go in and I am sure that they
would have to do much work on the concourse, if not practically rebuild
it from scratch.
I was referring to the platform level. The spot is already there.
Of course, you would have to build new platforms, redo the walls and
ceilings and possible even relay the ROW.
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
and the extra stop would slow down evry train on the line.
So, adjust the schedules.
Slowing down everyone's journey is the problem, not the scefule.
More trains? NT4L, perhaps?
Or its successor, by the time the station is reopened.
How much time would it take to rebuild and reactivate the station
against the required time for public consultations, environmental impact
and securing finance?
Recliner
2017-06-12 21:21:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Robin9
Post by s***@potato.field
-
On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.-
Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighted
move ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only
has bus connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A
branch of the northern line would transform it into one of the most
desirable suburbs in London (given the view and other facilities) and
probably send the house prices stratospheric.-
It wasn't closed by London Transport. The tube never went there.
London Underground took over only the stretch between Highgate
and Barnet.
Alexander Palace was the terminus of the branch line from Finsbury
Park and was closed by British Rail in the early/mid 1950s. The track bed
between Finsbury Park and Highgate is now a public footpath.-
That's a bit economical with the truth. It was included in the 1935-40 plan
and considerable works were done by London Transport, including Highgate
station, cabling and some conductor rail installations. The residual train
service was provided by BR but then so was it to Epping and Ongar until
1957.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
With all due respect, the fact that London Transport did some
preparatory work does not mean very much. That work came to
nothing. London Underground did not take over the line to
Alexander Palace which was closed by BR in July 1954.
Spud's point is that closing the line was foolish. Certainly today,
in today's political climate, no line would be closed. In 1954
attitudes and assumptions were quite different.
Reminds me of South Kentish Town; They closed the station on a whim,
AIUI, due to low passenger volumes.
I would ask about the prospects of reactivating that station, but I know
that they are less than zero.
Yes, I don't think any of the Tube stations that were closed early in their
lives because of low traffic have been reopened. Perhaps the one with the
best, albeit still very low, chance of reopening is York Road on the Picc,
thanks to all the new developments on the former Kings Cross railway lands.
The demand would be there, but the cost of reopening it to modern standards
would be high
Well, the matrix for the station is there -- at least part of it.
Escalators? Gates?
Oh, yes, absolutely. That all needs to go in and I am sure that they
would have to do much work on the concourse, if not practically rebuild
it from scratch.
I was referring to the platform level. The spot is already there.
Of course, you would have to build new platforms, redo the walls and
ceilings and possible even relay the ROW.
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
and the extra stop would slow down evry train on the line.
So, adjust the schedules.
Slowing down everyone's journey is the problem, not the scefule.
More trains? NT4L, perhaps?
Or its successor, by the time the station is reopened.
How much time would it take to rebuild and reactivate the station
against the required time for public consultations, environmental impact
and securing finance?
I suppose the actual physical construction work would take around three
years or so, but this document is worth a read:
http://www.lurs.org.uk/articles10_htm_files/york%20road.pdf

It concludes:

Overall there would be very few extra journeys on the Underground resulting
from the station opening, and those using the station would mostly be using
it in place of bus travel.
Two key problems would arise from the opening of the station:
1. It would slow the Piccadilly Line down ‘north’ of King’s Cross, i.e.,
reversing the original reason for closing the station. This section of line
is already overcrowded in the peak hour, and adding an extra stop, more
people, and more time to journeys would not help.
2. It would cause more interchange at King’s Cross Underground station,
and increase congestion at the lower levels of this station.
The small increase in overall revenue for TfL if the station was reopened
would be outweighed by the two issues listed above combined with the annual
operating costs (which is estimated at £620,000). It is therefore not
surprising to find that the scheme has a very low benefit cost ratio (BCR)
of 0.03 : 1 – in other words, for every pound spent, there is a benefit to
society of just 3 pence. Calculations were also performed to look at less
quantifiable aspects of reopening, such as the reduction in walking time to
get to the Underground, the possibility that passenger numbers would be
higher than estimated, and that congestion might not be caused at King’s
Cross. In none of the cases did the BCR exceed 0.8 : 1. Typically TfL
requires the BCR to be 1.5 : 1 to justify major projects.
Overall, it is therefore very unlikely that York Road station will be
reopening again, especially given the constraints on public spending at
present.
Bryan Morris
2017-06-11 23:19:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@potato.field
-
On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.-
Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted sighted
move ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded suburb that only
has bus connections which are utterly hopeless in the rush hour. A
branch of the northern line would transform it into one of the most
desirable suburbs in London (given the view and other facilities) and
probably send the house prices stratospheric.-
It wasn't closed by London Transport. The tube never went there.
London Underground took over only the stretch between Highgate
and Barnet.
Alexander Palace was the terminus of the branch line from Finsbury
Park and was closed by British Rail in the early/mid 1950s. The track bed
between Finsbury Park and Highgate is now a public footpath.-
That's a bit economical with the truth. It was included in the 1935-40 plan
and considerable works were done by London Transport, including Highgate
station, cabling and some conductor rail installations. The residual train
service was provided by BR but then so was it to Epping and Ongar until 1957.
I mentioned it before. When I was a Haringey Councillor in the 80s & on
the Alexander Palace & Park Committee I proposed a unique 24/7 light
railway on that route. It would have been financed by the (then) EEC. I
organised a presentation. The cars would run partly on the ground and
partly suspended. Depending on demand either 1 car or multi cars

After a vote it was turned down partly because the track was now the
Parkland Walk and partly because the overhead section would pass an Old
People's Home which had been built on part of the track and the railway
passing the windows would "scare the residents"
--
Bryan Morris
Public Key http://www.pgp.uk.demon.net - 0xCC6237E9
Basil Jet
2017-06-08 18:45:04 UTC
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Post by Offramp
http://eorailway.co.uk/events/real-ale/
28th, 29th and 30th July 2017.
Celebrating 60 years (apparently) since the Epping-North Weald-Ongar line first opened.
It was *electrified* approximately 60 years ago on 18 November 1957. It
opened 152 years ago and was taken over by LT approximately 68 years ago.
r***@cix.co.uk
2017-06-10 15:48:32 UTC
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In article
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100
Post by Recliner
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.
Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted
sighted move ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded
suburb that only has bus connections which are utterly hopeless in
the rush hour. A branch of the northern line would transform it into
one of the most desirable suburbs in London (given the view and
other facilities) and probably send the house prices stratospheric.
Yes, I think that extension should have happened.
Any chance now of reviving that project?
No, it's been superseded by other idea.
Such as?
The Bakerloo and already-underway Northern line extensions south of the
river; rebuilding Bank for more capacity; Crossrail 2; splitting the
Northern line into two lines; Barking Riverside.
You could argue that transferring the GNCR to BR to provide a better
Moorgate GN terminus stymied any Muswell Hill revival.

Mind you, "the most short sighted move by LT" is a highly coveted prize with
lots of other competition.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Recliner
2017-06-11 09:56:57 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.co.uk
In article
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 09 Jun 2017 14:50:24 +0100
Post by Recliner
Central Line to Denham; Northern Line to Bushey Heath and Alexandra
Palace; Met Line to Quainton Road, Brill and Verney Junction.
Ripping up the line to alexandra palace was IMO the most shorted
sighted move ever made by LT. Muswell Hill is a buzzing crowded
suburb that only has bus connections which are utterly hopeless in
the rush hour. A branch of the northern line would transform it into
one of the most desirable suburbs in London (given the view and
other facilities) and probably send the house prices stratospheric.
Yes, I think that extension should have happened.
Any chance now of reviving that project?
No, it's been superseded by other idea.
Such as?
The Bakerloo and already-underway Northern line extensions south of the
river; rebuilding Bank for more capacity; Crossrail 2; splitting the
Northern line into two lines; Barking Riverside.
You could argue that transferring the GNCR to BR to provide a better
Moorgate GN terminus stymied any Muswell Hill revival.
True, but that happened long after the Northern Heights plan was
abandoned.
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Mind you, "the most short sighted move by LT" is a highly coveted prize with
lots of other competition.
Yup. In recent years, the SSR resignalling would be a strong
contender, though I've been told that the bad decision at the heart of
it was political (Boris and Gideon), rather than TfL.
r***@cix.co.uk
2017-06-13 00:54:58 UTC
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In article
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Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 08:46:39 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s.
Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those!
Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead.
I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the
least worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys.
In London? Are you mad??!!
No. Avoiding London, which is what the Ringways were for.
I'm not sure you can say with a straight face that the north circular
avoids london given its about 5 miles inside it!
And certainly not ringways 1 & 2 which were within or close to the
North & South Circulars.
If you lived in south London and wanted to head for the M1, they'd help
you avoid central London. Similarly, I live in northwest London, well
inside the M25, but still use it to get to the M23 and Gatwick, or the M11
and Stansted. Before it existed, I had to drive through London.
I go by train. Far more relaxing. Haven't you heard that extra roads just
fill up with extra traffic?
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Recliner
2017-06-13 01:20:14 UTC
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In article
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Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 08:46:39 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s.
Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those!
Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead.
I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the
least worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys.
In London? Are you mad??!!
No. Avoiding London, which is what the Ringways were for.
I'm not sure you can say with a straight face that the north circular
avoids london given its about 5 miles inside it!
And certainly not ringways 1 & 2 which were within or close to the
North & South Circulars.
If you lived in south London and wanted to head for the M1, they'd help
you avoid central London. Similarly, I live in northwest London, well
inside the M25, but still use it to get to the M23 and Gatwick, or the M11
and Stansted. Before it existed, I had to drive through London.
I go by train. Far more relaxing. Haven't you heard that extra roads just
fill up with extra traffic?
Relaxing???

On my arrival at Gatwick a few days ago, I did take the trains (three of
them, plus a bus). It took much more than twice as long and was far more
tiring than driving home in my comfortable car, as I'd done on my previous
Gatwick trip. Luckily, on my Stansted trip last month, I did take the car.
Again, it took much less than half the time the trains would have taken,
and was easy, comfortable and completely painless. I also didn't need to
worry about early/late trains, which would have been a serious issue if I'd
taken the trains.
s***@potato.field
2017-06-14 08:24:36 UTC
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On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 01:20:14 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
On my arrival at Gatwick a few days ago, I did take the trains (three of
them, plus a bus). It took much more than twice as long and was far more
tiring than driving home in my comfortable car, as I'd done on my previous
Gatwick trip. Luckily, on my Stansted trip last month, I did take the car.
Again, it took much less than half the time the trains would have taken,
and was easy, comfortable and completely painless. I also didn't need to
worry about early/late trains, which would have been a serious issue if I'd
taken the trains.
The only problem with driving to an airport is the extortionate fees for
long term parking and if you use one of the "valet" parking companies you can
never be sure how your car will be treated by the oik who drives it to the
muddy field and dumps is there for a week. I used to work just north of
heathrow and from my office window I could see one of these companies. Lets
just say they wouldn't be getting my business anytime soon.
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-06-13 14:12:56 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Recliner
If you lived in south London and wanted to head for the M1, they'd help
you avoid central London. Similarly, I live in northwest London, well
inside the M25, but still use it to get to the M23 and Gatwick, or the M11
and Stansted. Before it existed, I had to drive through London.
I go by train. Far more relaxing.
Some relatives were staying with me the other week and travelled to
Gatwick by train (rather than have me give them lift).

They got caught up in the points/signalling failure somewhere near the
just-opened Cambridge North, and then there was an unassociated set of
delays through the Thameslink core.

Anything *but* relaxing.
--
Roland Perry
Robin9
2017-06-13 21:43:30 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.co.uk
In article
-
-
On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 08:46:39 +0100
some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the 1970s.
Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those!
Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead.
I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the
least worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys.
In London? Are you mad??!!
No. Avoiding London, which is what the Ringways were for.
I'm not sure you can say with a straight face that the north circula
avoids london given its about 5 miles inside it!-
And certainly not ringways 1 & 2 which were within or close to the
North & South Circulars.-
If you lived in south London and wanted to head for the M1, they'
help
you avoid central London. Similarly, I live in northwest London, well
inside the M25, but still use it to get to the M23 and Gatwick, or th
M11
and Stansted. Before it existed, I had to drive through London.-
I go by train. Far more relaxing. Haven't you heard that extra road
just
fill up with extra traffic?
--
Colin Rosenstiel
I've heard that fable too, but I know it's not true


--
Robin9
r***@cix.co.uk
2017-06-13 13:00:35 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.co.uk
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Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 08:46:39 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the
1970s.
Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those!
Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead.
I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the
least worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys.
In London? Are you mad??!!
No. Avoiding London, which is what the Ringways were for.
I'm not sure you can say with a straight face that the north circular
avoids london given its about 5 miles inside it!
And certainly not ringways 1 & 2 which were within or close to the
North & South Circulars.
If you lived in south London and wanted to head for the M1, they'd help
you avoid central London. Similarly, I live in northwest London, well
inside the M25, but still use it to get to the M23 and Gatwick, or the
M11 and Stansted. Before it existed, I had to drive through London.
I go by train. Far more relaxing. Haven't you heard that extra
roads just fill up with extra traffic?
Relaxing???
On my arrival at Gatwick a few days ago, I did take the trains (three of
them, plus a bus). It took much more than twice as long and was far more
tiring than driving home in my comfortable car, as I'd done on my previous
Gatwick trip. Luckily, on my Stansted trip last month, I did take the car.
Again, it took much less than half the time the trains would have taken,
and was easy, comfortable and completely painless. I also didn't need to
worry about early/late trains, which would have been a serious issue if
I'd taken the trains.
I find that bizarre. You complain they should have built roads to make your
(relatively short) journey easier. They didn't but you much preferred to
drive anyway. I agree Stansted has nothing like the train service Gatwick
has.

Meanwhile my wife and I went to Edinburgh and back earlier this month. Far
faster, more comfortable and relaxing by train.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Recliner
2017-06-13 13:25:17 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.co.uk
In article
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
In article
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 08:46:39 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
some stupidly short-sighted decisions were taken up to the
1970s.
Some might say failing to build Ringways 1-4 was one of those!
Certainly not! I never knew you were such a petrolhead.
I'm not a petrolhead as such, but sometimes private cars are the
least worst way to empower the requisite number of journeys.
In London? Are you mad??!!
No. Avoiding London, which is what the Ringways were for.
I'm not sure you can say with a straight face that the north circular
avoids london given its about 5 miles inside it!
And certainly not ringways 1 & 2 which were within or close to the
North & South Circulars.
If you lived in south London and wanted to head for the M1, they'd help
you avoid central London. Similarly, I live in northwest London, well
inside the M25, but still use it to get to the M23 and Gatwick, or the
M11 and Stansted. Before it existed, I had to drive through London.
I go by train. Far more relaxing. Haven't you heard that extra
roads just fill up with extra traffic?
Relaxing???
On my arrival at Gatwick a few days ago, I did take the trains (three of
them, plus a bus). It took much more than twice as long and was far more
tiring than driving home in my comfortable car, as I'd done on my previous
Gatwick trip. Luckily, on my Stansted trip last month, I did take the car.
Again, it took much less than half the time the trains would have taken,
and was easy, comfortable and completely painless. I also didn't need to
worry about early/late trains, which would have been a serious issue if
I'd taken the trains.
I find that bizarre. You complain they should have built roads to make your
(relatively short) journey easier. They didn't but you much preferred to
drive anyway. I agree Stansted has nothing like the train service Gatwick
has.
You seem to be confusing me with Roland [hint: I don't post endlessly about
Ely]. I never complained that all the Ringways weren't built. I just
pointed out that they'd have helped people get out of, as well as around,
London.
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Meanwhile my wife and I went to Edinburgh and back earlier this month. Far
faster, more comfortable and relaxing by train.
Well, of course, if you're comparing it with driving. Flying would
certainly be faster still, but not necessarily more comfortable or
relaxing.
Someone Somewhere
2017-06-13 14:11:10 UTC
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Post by Recliner
You seem to be confusing me with Roland [hint: I don't post endlessly about
Ely]. I never complained that all the Ringways weren't built. I just
pointed out that they'd have helped people get out of, as well as around,
London.
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Meanwhile my wife and I went to Edinburgh and back earlier this month. Far
faster, more comfortable and relaxing by train.
Well, of course, if you're comparing it with driving. Flying would
certainly be faster still, but not necessarily more comfortable or
relaxing.
And of course there are places that are not well connected to the train
network - for example getting to Ross on Wye is extremely tedious by
public transport
Roland Perry
2017-06-13 18:49:41 UTC
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<1913757860.519052906.114872.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-sept
ember.org>, at 13:25:17 on Tue, 13 Jun 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
You seem to be confusing me with Roland
Colin and I go back 20yrs at least. He wouldn't do that.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-06-13 19:22:46 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 13:25:17 on Tue, 13 Jun 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
You seem to be confusing me with Roland
Colin and I go back 20yrs at least. He wouldn't do that.
He did in this thread, but yes, I do know that you know each other. That's
why I was surprised.
s***@potato.field
2017-06-14 08:29:11 UTC
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On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 13:25:17 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Meanwhile my wife and I went to Edinburgh and back earlier this month. Far
faster, more comfortable and relaxing by train.
If you're going city centre to city centre the train is ideal. Not so much
if your destination is somewhere outside or you plan on doing some touring.
Post by Recliner
Well, of course, if you're comparing it with driving. Flying would
certainly be faster still, but not necessarily more comfortable or
relaxing.
I'm not even sure flying is faster to edinburgh. The train is 4 hours ish, the
flight 1 hour, but the train doesn't have check in an hour beforehand,
waiting around at the departure gate, waiting around on the runway and
the reverse at the other end (If you're reserved a seat on the train you can
turn up 5 mins beforehand, sit down and you're off). Then you have to make your
way from edinburgh airport to the city.
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-06-13 18:47:55 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Meanwhile my wife and I went to Edinburgh and back earlier this month. Far
faster, more comfortable and relaxing by train.
Yes, it is, as long as you don't pay the walk-up fare of £280 a pair,
which is the time-restricted Supersaver.

Edinburgh remains an enigma from East Anglia, with neither affordable
flights from Stansted, nor affordable train fares, nor close enough to
drive.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.co.uk
2017-06-14 06:41:13 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Meanwhile my wife and I went to Edinburgh and back earlier this month.
Far faster, more comfortable and relaxing by train.
Yes, it is, as long as you don't pay the walk-up fare of £280 a pair,
which is the time-restricted Supersaver.
Edinburgh remains an enigma from East Anglia, with neither affordable
flights from Stansted, nor affordable train fares, nor close enough
to drive.
I don't know why you say that. I was looking for my (Edinburgh resident)
daughter who is coming to visit us next month and then taking my
granddaughter, her niece, back with her. They can get there for about £30 I
think it was, by splitting at Peterborough.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2017-06-14 10:16:48 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Meanwhile my wife and I went to Edinburgh and back earlier this month.
Far faster, more comfortable and relaxing by train.
Yes, it is, as long as you don't pay the walk-up fare of £280 a pair,
which is the time-restricted Supersaver.
Edinburgh remains an enigma from East Anglia, with neither affordable
flights from Stansted, nor affordable train fares, nor close enough
to drive.
I don't know why you say that. I was looking for my (Edinburgh resident)
daughter who is coming to visit us next month and then taking my
granddaughter, her niece, back with her. They can get there for about £30 I
think it was,
One way per person?

You might be able to cherry-pick some cheap fares if your trip is
susceptible to the inevitable restrictions that imposes.

Super off-peak not London is £130 return.
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
by splitting at Peterborough.
Yes, you often need to split at least at Ely to get the best offerings.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.co.uk
2017-06-14 19:16:07 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Meanwhile my wife and I went to Edinburgh and back earlier this month.
Far faster, more comfortable and relaxing by train.
Yes, it is, as long as you don't pay the walk-up fare of £280 a pair,
which is the time-restricted Supersaver.
Edinburgh remains an enigma from East Anglia, with neither affordable
flights from Stansted, nor affordable train fares, nor close enough
to drive.
I don't know why you say that. I was looking for my (Edinburgh resident)
daughter who is coming to visit us next month and then taking my
granddaughter, her niece, back with her. They can get there for about £30
I think it was,
One way per person?
No, adult plus child one way with Family & Friends railcard. To be precise,
£27.85, made up of £6.55 CBG-PBO and £21.30 PBO-EDB.
Post by Roland Perry
You might be able to cherry-pick some cheap fares if your trip is
susceptible to the inevitable restrictions that imposes.
Super off-peak not London is £130 return.
Less railcard discounts where available.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
by splitting at Peterborough.
Yes, you often need to split at least at Ely to get the best
offerings.
East Coast seem to have started falling into a trick other TOCs have done
for years, limiting their best fares to their own trains, hence the split at
Peterborough.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2017-06-14 19:38:57 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
by splitting at Peterborough.
Yes, you often need to split at least at Ely to get the best
offerings.
East Coast seem to have started falling into a trick other TOCs have done
for years, limiting their best fares to their own trains, hence the split at
Peterborough.
The other effect which kicked in a couple of years ago was Arriva XC
getting much meaner about AP tickets.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.co.uk
2017-06-14 23:47:01 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
by splitting at Peterborough.
Yes, you often need to split at least at Ely to get the best
offerings.
East Coast seem to have started falling into a trick other TOCs have done
for years, limiting their best fares to their own trains, hence the split
at Peterborough.
The other effect which kicked in a couple of years ago was Arriva XC
getting much meaner about AP tickets.
Someone else said that to me earlier tonight but look at the CBG_PBO fares
which are XC's!
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2017-06-15 09:17:18 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
by splitting at Peterborough.
Yes, you often need to split at least at Ely to get the best
offerings.
East Coast seem to have started falling into a trick other TOCs have done
for years, limiting their best fares to their own trains, hence the split
at Peterborough.
The other effect which kicked in a couple of years ago was Arriva XC
getting much meaner about AP tickets.
Someone else said that to me earlier tonight but look at the CBG_PBO fares
which are XC's!
You can get the occasional bargain, but they are much harder to find
than before. I think part of the problem is they don't have the software
to look at sections of the journey and hence tend to withdraw AP fares
where *any* part of the journey is in a busy period somewhere locally.
Even though at other points it'll be empty.
--
Roland Perry
Someone Somewhere
2017-06-15 10:05:36 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
by splitting at Peterborough.
Yes, you often need to split at least at Ely to get the best
offerings.
East Coast seem to have started falling into a trick other TOCs have
done
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
for years, limiting their best fares to their own trains, hence the
split
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
at Peterborough.
The other effect which kicked in a couple of years ago was Arriva XC
getting much meaner about AP tickets.
Someone else said that to me earlier tonight but look at the CBG_PBO fares
which are XC's!
You can get the occasional bargain, but they are much harder to find
than before. I think part of the problem is they don't have the software
to look at sections of the journey and hence tend to withdraw AP fares
where *any* part of the journey is in a busy period somewhere locally.
Even though at other points it'll be empty.
I have to admit I'm impressed at the ability of you and Colin to make
any discussion veer off course to be about Cambridge and its environs
whilst failing to give a xxxx about the topic of the newsgroup and what
everyone else thinks.

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