Discussion:
Crossrail 2 hits the buffers
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eastender
2017-05-29 22:14:27 UTC
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Not in Tory manifesto.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/29/crossrail-2-hits-buffers-uncertainties-brexit-election-london#comment-99392666
s***@potato.field
2017-05-30 08:17:48 UTC
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On Mon, 29 May 2017 23:14:27 +0100
Post by eastender
Not in Tory manifesto.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/29/crossrail-2-hits-buffers-uncert
inties-brexit-election-london#comment-99392666
I can't see the need for crossrail 2. We already have Thameslink and in
north london there's the moorgate line. If its simply to improve the public
transport in hackney then just build a new tube line or branch off the
victoria line but don't spend billions on another north-south mainline
railway.
--
Spud
Mike Bristow
2017-05-30 10:25:34 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
I can't see the need for crossrail 2. We already have Thameslink and in
north london there's the moorgate line.
I think those lines are pretty full in the peak.
Post by s***@potato.field
If its simply to improve the public
transport in hackney then just build a new tube line or branch off the
victoria line
The victoria line isn't exactly renowned for half-full trains; and
I don't think there's much scope for increasing the capacity much.

It also doesn't improve public transport in Chelsea.

It also doesn't divert services that currently terminate in Waterloo
and Liverpool Street; by doing that you get to improve those
services (because they're no longer fighting for space in a busy
terminus) but also improve all the other services at that station,
because there are now 10 more paths into and out of e.g. Waterloo
that can be used by e.g. services to Southampton or Putney.
Post by s***@potato.field
but don't spend billions on another north-south mainline
railway.
How about a SW <-> NE one?

That's not to say that there's nothing to critise in the plans:
personally, I think the SW section tries to pull in too many branches
and that will badly impact reliability. I think they're planning
on additional tracks so that CR2 will have dedicated running, which
is something, and all the junctions are (currently) flying, so
presumably they'll still have that.

Cheers,
Mike
--
Mike Bristow ***@urgle.com
s***@potato.field
2017-05-30 11:17:26 UTC
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On Tue, 30 May 2017 11:25:34 +0100
Post by Mike Bristow
Post by s***@potato.field
I can't see the need for crossrail 2. We already have Thameslink and in
north london there's the moorgate line.
I think those lines are pretty full in the peak.
Are thameslink using ATO in the central section yet? Thats supposed to improve
throughput AFAIK. Yes, the moorgate line is busy (I use it once or twice a
week) but that unfortunately is down to delays almost all the time which
almost always seem to be down to a cockup by the TOC or its staff having a lie
in. On the rare occasions the trains are on time they're busy but not crush
loaded.
Post by Mike Bristow
Post by s***@potato.field
If its simply to improve the public
transport in hackney then just build a new tube line or branch off the
victoria line
The victoria line isn't exactly renowned for half-full trains; and
I don't think there's much scope for increasing the capacity much.
That is a fair point.
Post by Mike Bristow
It also doesn't improve public transport in Chelsea.
Frankly I doubt many of the inhabitants of that area give a monkeys about
public transport.
--
Spud
tim...
2017-05-30 11:41:44 UTC
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Post by Mike Bristow
Post by s***@potato.field
I can't see the need for crossrail 2. We already have Thameslink and in
north london there's the moorgate line.
I think those lines are pretty full in the peak.
Post by s***@potato.field
If its simply to improve the public
transport in hackney then just build a new tube line or branch off the
victoria line
The victoria line isn't exactly renowned for half-full trains; and
I don't think there's much scope for increasing the capacity much.
It also doesn't improve public transport in Chelsea.
according to the article that I read, removal of the station in Chelsea is
being considered in order to keep CR2 on track, and it's something that is
actually welcomed by the residents

tim
Paul Corfield
2017-05-30 11:07:40 UTC
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Post by eastender
Not in Tory manifesto.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/29/crossrail-2-hits-buffers-uncertainties-brexit-election-london#comment-99392666
I think it was in difficulties long before the manifesto emerged. The lack of impetus, delayed consultation stages and Grayling's dislike of devolving anything to City Hall were all clear warning signs. Grayling then said he wanted to "investigate" the use of a land value capture tax as a funding mechanism. That is just another way of delaying the scheme and postponing the funding because I don't think we have such a tax mechanism in law and you'd need a Budget and a finance bill to introduce it. The Tories are not exactly fans of introducing new taxes and the government is pretty incompetent anyway so it would be hard to get through Parliament.

It is quite clear that the enthusiasm for "infrastructure" held by Cameron and Osborne is not evident in May's administration and even if she wins the General Election there are no obvious advocates for such a scheme in Government. The Chancellor is doing everything he can to avoid expensive pledges because the Exchequer needs maximum flexibility to deal with whatever the impact of Brexit will be. At a minimum, uncertainty about the process, timing and outcome of Brexit will damage the economy and even if there is no slump there will be a weakening and that damages tax income. The government are reluctant to borrow to invest so all they have left as a fiscal tool is to cut expenditure regardless of the impact.

I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20 years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport investment.
--
Paul C
via Google
Roland Perry
2017-05-30 11:16:20 UTC
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Post by Paul Corfield
I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20
years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to
endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because
politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport
investment.
Or perhaps they realise that spending huge sums on something like CR2
brings less kudos than promising the same amount for the NHS, were
everyone in the country, not just a few toffs in Chelsea, can bask in
its alleged benefit.
--
Roland Perry
eastender
2017-05-30 11:41:52 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20
years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to
endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because
politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport
investment.
Or perhaps they realise that spending huge sums on something like CR2
brings less kudos than promising the same amount for the NHS, were
everyone in the country, not just a few toffs in Chelsea, can bask in
its alleged benefit.
Except that the toffs in Chelsea really don't want a station on CR2.
Recliner
2017-05-30 15:04:11 UTC
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Post by eastender
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20
years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to
endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because
politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport
investment.
Or perhaps they realise that spending huge sums on something like CR2
brings less kudos than promising the same amount for the NHS, were
everyone in the country, not just a few toffs in Chelsea, can bask in
its alleged benefit.
Except that the toffs in Chelsea really don't want a station on CR2.
Correct. They've been campaigning against it. They don't want the
disruption of its construction, nor the subsequent ability of suburban
plebs and lowlife to be whisked to their doorsteps.
Roland Perry
2017-05-30 19:18:33 UTC
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In message
<437372469.517849444.689538.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 15:04:11 on Tue, 30 May 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by eastender
Except that the toffs in Chelsea really don't want a station on CR2.
Correct. They've been campaigning against it. They don't want the
disruption of its construction, nor the subsequent ability of suburban
plebs and lowlife to be whisked to their doorsteps.
If it's like other such proposals in similar circumstances, what they
don't like is the idea that lowlife can easily escape back to their
homeland having burgled the premises in Chelsea.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.co.uk
2017-05-30 16:57:49 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20
years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to
endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because
politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport
investment.
Or perhaps they realise that spending huge sums on something like CR2
brings less kudos than promising the same amount for the NHS, were
everyone in the country, not just a few toffs in Chelsea, can bask in
its alleged benefit.
The biggest set of beneficiaries are the 100 million passengers a year using
Waterloo who will either get alternatives or much needed extra capacity.

Paul is right about politicians and transport investment though.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
tim...
2017-05-31 08:05:37 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20
years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to
endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because
politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport
investment.
Or perhaps they realise that spending huge sums on something like CR2
brings less kudos than promising the same amount for the NHS, were
everyone in the country, not just a few toffs in Chelsea, can bask in
its alleged benefit.
The biggest set of beneficiaries are the 100 million passengers a year using
Waterloo who will either get alternatives or much needed extra capacity.
though it doesn't need to leave the mainline at Wimbledon and take a round
the houses route to Chelsea via Balham to achieve that

building the tunnel portal somewhere between Earlsfield and CJ would be
sufficient
Basil Jet
2017-05-31 12:29:29 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20
years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to
endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because
politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport
investment.
Or perhaps they realise that spending huge sums on something like CR2
brings less kudos than promising the same amount for the NHS, were
everyone in the country, not just a few toffs in Chelsea, can bask in
its alleged benefit.
The biggest set of beneficiaries are the 100 million passengers a year using
Waterloo who will either get alternatives or much needed extra capacity.
though it doesn't need to leave the mainline at Wimbledon and take a
round the houses route to Chelsea via Balham to achieve that
building the tunnel portal somewhere between Earlsfield and CJ would be
sufficient
CR2 plans to increase trains between Wimbledon and London, and will
allow trains from Chessington and Epsom to get to London without sharing
tracks with the lines from Surbiton. Starting the tunnel north of
Wimbledon wouldn't allow any extra service to Waterloo... the trains
from Wimbledon and the trains from Putney don't share tracks through
Clapham Junction, because both routes have dedicated tracks to Waterloo.
tim...
2017-05-31 12:45:22 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20
years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to
endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because
politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport
investment.
Or perhaps they realise that spending huge sums on something like CR2
brings less kudos than promising the same amount for the NHS, were
everyone in the country, not just a few toffs in Chelsea, can bask in
its alleged benefit.
The biggest set of beneficiaries are the 100 million passengers a year using
Waterloo who will either get alternatives or much needed extra capacity.
though it doesn't need to leave the mainline at Wimbledon and take a
round the houses route to Chelsea via Balham to achieve that
building the tunnel portal somewhere between Earlsfield and CJ would be
sufficient
CR2 plans to increase trains between Wimbledon and London, and will allow
trains from Chessington and Epsom to get to London without sharing tracks
with the lines from Surbiton.
as the bottleneck on the mainline runs all the way back to new Malden, where
are the extra paths on that part going to come from to achieve that?
Starting the tunnel north of Wimbledon wouldn't allow any extra service to
Waterloo...
no, but it would reduce the congestion at the throat as there would be less
(can I use that word as Roland isn't watching me) trains there each morning

It's few years since I travelled the mainline into Waterloo but recall
having to wait there frequently in the past
the trains from Wimbledon and the trains from Putney don't share tracks
through Clapham Junction, because both routes have dedicated tracks to
Waterloo.
yes, everybody already knows that :-(
Richard
2017-05-31 19:47:04 UTC
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Post by tim...
as the bottleneck on the mainline runs all the way back to new Malden, where
are the extra paths on that part going to come from to achieve that?
I think the plan was to add a 5th track from the tunnel portal to at
least New Malden... Perhaps Hampton Court Junction.

Richard.
s***@potato.field
2017-05-31 08:30:20 UTC
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On Tue, 30 May 2017 11:57:49 -0500
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20
years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to
endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because
politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport
investment.
Or perhaps they realise that spending huge sums on something like CR2
brings less kudos than promising the same amount for the NHS, were
everyone in the country, not just a few toffs in Chelsea, can bask in
its alleged benefit.
The biggest set of beneficiaries are the 100 million passengers a year using
Waterloo who will either get alternatives or much needed extra capacity.
If all CR2 is is another line into waterloo then they can save half the
money and terminate it there. Also its been 10 YEARS since eurostar left
waterloo and STILL the international platforms are out of use and if you go
down there today you'll find the whole place is a building site. Quite what
they needed to do to perfectly servicable platforms that required taking 10
years to design and take half the international section apart is anyones guess.
If there was really concern about capacity at waterloo those platforms would
have been put back into use within 6 months.
--
Spud
r***@cix.co.uk
2017-05-31 09:39:38 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 30 May 2017 11:57:49 -0500
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20
years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to
endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because
politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport
investment.
Or perhaps they realise that spending huge sums on something like CR2
brings less kudos than promising the same amount for the NHS, were
everyone in the country, not just a few toffs in Chelsea, can bask in
its alleged benefit.
The biggest set of beneficiaries are the 100 million passengers a year
using Waterloo who will either get alternatives or much needed extra
capacity.
If all CR2 is is another line into waterloo then they can save half the
money and terminate it there. Also its been 10 YEARS since eurostar left
waterloo and STILL the international platforms are out of use and if you
go down there today you'll find the whole place is a building site.
Quite what they needed to do to perfectly servicable platforms that
required taking 10 years to design and take half the international section
apart is anyones guess. If there was really concern about capacity at
waterloo those platforms would have been put back into use within 6
months.
Of course it isn't, any more than most of the 100 million annual Waterloo
passengers terminate their journeys there.

You also seem blissfully unaware of the approach track to Waterloo which is
where a lot of the work is needed to allow former International platforms
designed for infrequent arrivals and departures to be used for a frequent
suburban service. You do yourself no favours overlooking such factors.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
s***@potato.field
2017-05-31 11:46:12 UTC
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On Wed, 31 May 2017 04:39:38 -0500
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
You also seem blissfully unaware of the approach track to Waterloo which is
where a lot of the work is needed to allow former International platforms
designed for infrequent arrivals and departures to be used for a frequent
suburban service. You do yourself no favours overlooking such factors.
It didn't take 10 years to build it in the first place so don't tell me its
taken 10 years to figure out how to rejig the track. The only reason its been
sitting idle so long is utter incompetance at Network Rail. And as this photo
proves they could have run trains into it ages ago if they'd wanted to without
having to rebuild the thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:South_West_Trains_stock_occupying_platforms_2
1_and_22,_Waterloo_station_in_2015.jpg
--
Spud
r***@cix.co.uk
2017-05-31 16:10:10 UTC
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In article <ogmae4$969$***@gioia.aioe.org>, ***@potato.field () wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:South_West_Trains_stock_occupying_platform
s_21_and_22,_Waterloo_station_in_2015.jpg

Do you not realise that the approach to those platforms was a single track
from and to the Linford St flyover?
--
Colin Rosenstiel
s***@potato.field
2017-06-01 08:21:01 UTC
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On Wed, 31 May 2017 11:10:10 -0500
Post by s***@potato.field
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:South_West_Trains_stock_occupying_platform
s_21_and_22,_Waterloo_station_in_2015.jpg
Do you not realise that the approach to those platforms was a single track
from and to the Linford St flyover?
Thats south of vauxhall, it has no bearing on the approach to waterloo and it
doesn't take 10 years to fit some points between there and waterloo and in fact
if you look on google maps you'll see plenty connecting the eurostar lines to
the rest of the network.
--
Spud
r***@cix.co.uk
2017-06-01 10:12:50 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 31 May 2017 11:10:10 -0500
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:South_West_Trains_stock_occupying_platform
s_21_and_22,_Waterloo_station_in_2015.jpg
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Do you not realise that the approach to those platforms was a single
track from and to the Linford St flyover?
Thats south of vauxhall, it has no bearing on the approach to
waterloo and it doesn't take 10 years to fit some points between
there and waterloo and in fact
if you look on google maps you'll see plenty connecting the eurostar
lines to the rest of the network.
Yes, the single line runs through platform 1 at Vauxhall.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Paul Corfield
2017-06-01 08:49:09 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 31 May 2017 04:39:38 -0500
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
You also seem blissfully unaware of the approach track to Waterloo which is
where a lot of the work is needed to allow former International platforms
designed for infrequent arrivals and departures to be used for a frequent
suburban service. You do yourself no favours overlooking such factors.
It didn't take 10 years to build it in the first place so don't tell me its
taken 10 years to figure out how to rejig the track. The only reason its been
sitting idle so long is utter incompetance at Network Rail. And as this photo
proves they could have run trains into it ages ago if they'd wanted to without
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:South_West_Trains_stock_occupying_platforms_2
1_and_22,_Waterloo_station_in_2015.jpg
You seem to think that Network Rail had independence to just splash £700m on reopening Waterloo. It didn't. The responsibility for the delay sits with the DfT who sat on their hands for years and did nothing about expanding capacity into Waterloo. It was only the NR / SET alliance that started to push things along in terms of new and longer trains and the associated infrastructure. If the Government don't put requirements in the HLOS / SOFA process then they don't get done. Government have sat back and left the South Western franchise to toddle along for many years despite the fact that there has been very strong growth in demand including heavy weekend loadings and contra peak commuter flows (e.g out towards Brentford and Kew in the AM peak due to the media businesses located there) growing.

The government then killed off the alliance by pulling NR back under DfT direct funding control. They then failed to secure a franchise extension with SWT (suspect both parties were rather awkward to be fair) so the franchise has had to be retendered. Bizarrely the handover occurs slap bang in the middle of the Waterloo blockade this August.

I have also read somewhere else that the flyover near Stewarts Lane that Eurostar used to reach the South Eastern line was funded with EU money. If the tracks to that viaduct are disconnected before a certain point in time then the funding has to be returned to the EU. That may also be a factor in the delay on this scheme. Note this last sentence is speculation on my part before people start frothing at the mouth and blaming Brussels.
--
Paul C
via Google
s***@potato.field
2017-06-01 10:44:15 UTC
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On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 01:49:09 -0700 (PDT)
You seem to think that Network Rail had independence to just splash =C2=A37=
00m on reopening Waterloo. It didn't. The responsibility for the delay si=
The points to NR exist, the platforms were perfectly servicable until they
started to demolish part them (for whatever reason, another excuse to waste
more taxpayers money) and train information boards were already fitted so apart
from putting in some standard ticket gates what exactly needed to be done to
"reopen" these platforms and use them? Answer - absolutely fuck all. It was
just incompetance and indifference all round.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-06-01 15:11:16 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 01:49:09 -0700 (PDT)
You seem to think that Network Rail had independence to just splash =C2=A37=
00m on reopening Waterloo. It didn't. The responsibility for the delay si=
The points to NR exist, the platforms were perfectly servicable until they
started to demolish part them (for whatever reason, another excuse to waste
more taxpayers money) and train information boards were already fitted so apart
from putting in some standard ticket gates what exactly needed to be done to
"reopen" these platforms and use them? Answer - absolutely fuck all. It was
just incompetance and indifference all round.
As usual, your ignorance is causing you to grossly oversimplify things.
s***@potato.field
2017-06-01 15:35:10 UTC
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On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 15:11:16 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 01:49:09 -0700 (PDT)
You seem to think that Network Rail had independence to just splash =C2=A37=
00m on reopening Waterloo. It didn't. The responsibility for the delay si=
The points to NR exist, the platforms were perfectly servicable until they
started to demolish part them (for whatever reason, another excuse to waste
more taxpayers money) and train information boards were already fitted so
apart
Post by s***@potato.field
from putting in some standard ticket gates what exactly needed to be done to
"reopen" these platforms and use them? Answer - absolutely fuck all. It was
just incompetance and indifference all round.
As usual, your ignorance is causing you to grossly oversimplify things.
The infrastructure was in in place. Anything else is down to people.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-06-01 19:21:16 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 15:11:16 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 01:49:09 -0700 (PDT)
You seem to think that Network Rail had independence to just splash =C2=A37=
00m on reopening Waterloo. It didn't. The responsibility for the delay si=
The points to NR exist, the platforms were perfectly servicable until they
started to demolish part them (for whatever reason, another excuse to waste
more taxpayers money) and train information boards were already fitted so
apart
Post by s***@potato.field
from putting in some standard ticket gates what exactly needed to be done to
"reopen" these platforms and use them? Answer - absolutely fuck all. It was
just incompetance and indifference all round.
As usual, your ignorance is causing you to grossly oversimplify things.
The infrastructure was in in place. Anything else is down to people.
No it wasn't. Take a look at what they're having to do in Waterloo:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/sets/72157673819851723
s***@potato.field
2017-06-02 13:33:11 UTC
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On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 19:21:16 -0000 (UTC)
Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 15:11:16 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 01:49:09 -0700 (PDT)
Post by Paul Corfield
You seem to think that Network Rail had independence to just splash
=C2=A37=
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Paul Corfield
00m on reopening Waterloo. It didn't. The responsibility for the delay
si=
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
The points to NR exist, the platforms were perfectly servicable until they
started to demolish part them (for whatever reason, another excuse to waste
more taxpayers money) and train information boards were already fitted so
apart
Post by s***@potato.field
from putting in some standard ticket gates what exactly needed to be done
to
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
"reopen" these platforms and use them? Answer - absolutely fuck all. It
was
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
just incompetance and indifference all round.
As usual, your ignorance is causing you to grossly oversimplify things.
The infrastructure was in in place. Anything else is down to people.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/sets/72157673819851723
Yes I know they're doing all that, I work nearby. However given local
services have run from those platforms on rare occasions these works are
clearly a long way from being essential. As I said, the infrastructure was
there and the delay was down to people in charge being dicks.
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-06-02 14:59:24 UTC
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As I said, the infrastructure was there and the delay was down to
people in charge being dicks.
Not bobs?


--
Roland Perry
tim...
2017-05-31 12:47:03 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 30 May 2017 11:57:49 -0500
Post by r***@cix.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
I will be astonished if CR2 starts construction within the next 20
years. We will see a repeat of the nonsense that Crossrail had to
endure to get to the point of "spades in the ground". This is because
politicians are generally pretty stupid when it comes to transport
investment.
Or perhaps they realise that spending huge sums on something like CR2
brings less kudos than promising the same amount for the NHS, were
everyone in the country, not just a few toffs in Chelsea, can bask in
its alleged benefit.
The biggest set of beneficiaries are the 100 million passengers a year using
Waterloo who will either get alternatives or much needed extra capacity.
If all CR2 is is another line into waterloo then they can save half the
money and terminate it there. Also its been 10 YEARS since eurostar left
waterloo and STILL the international platforms are out of use and if you go
down there today you'll find the whole place is a building site. Quite what
they needed to do to perfectly servicable platforms that required taking 10
years to design and take half the international section apart
they had to wait 9 years for it to become politically acceptable to confirm
that the international trains weren't coming back :-)

tim
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