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Latest RAIB on Croydon tram catastrophe
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Roland Perry
2017-08-03 14:08:22 UTC
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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fatal-tram-accident-in-croydon

But it's not the final report, just a holding-letter.

The first three key recommendations are things the travelling public are
entitled to expect would have happened years ago.
--
Roland Perry
Basil Jet
2017-08-03 16:04:33 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fatal-tram-accident-in-croydon
But it's not the final report, just a holding-letter.
The first three key recommendations are things the travelling public are
entitled to expect would have happened years ago.
"improved containment of passengers by tram windows and doors"

That could make it harder for the passengers to get out in other
incidents, like a gas attack or incendiary device. Wouldn't train
windows have broken in the same sort of incident? Would they put cages
inside the windows, making Croydon look like a war zone?
Recliner
2017-08-03 16:35:29 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roland Perry
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fatal-tram-accident-in-croydon
But it's not the final report, just a holding-letter.
The first three key recommendations are things the travelling public are
entitled to expect would have happened years ago.
"improved containment of passengers by tram windows and doors"
That could make it harder for the passengers to get out in other
incidents, like a gas attack or incendiary device. Wouldn't train
windows have broken in the same sort of incident? Would they put cages
inside the windows, making Croydon look like a war zone?
Just make them more like train windows.
tim...
2017-08-03 18:35:58 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roland Perry
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fatal-tram-accident-in-croydon
But it's not the final report, just a holding-letter.
The first three key recommendations are things the travelling public are
entitled to expect would have happened years ago.
"improved containment of passengers by tram windows and doors"
That could make it harder for the passengers to get out in other
incidents, like a gas attack or incendiary device. Wouldn't train windows
have broken in the same sort of incident? Would they put cages inside the
windows, making Croydon look like a war zone?
you mean it isn't?

tim
Recliner
2017-08-03 16:35:29 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fatal-tram-accident-in-croydon
But it's not the final report, just a holding-letter.
The first three key recommendations are things the travelling public are
entitled to expect would have happened years ago.
For anyone who hasn't clicked on the link:

Key recommendation areas addressed to UK tram operators, are likely to be:

- provision of active tram protection to prevent serious accidents due to
excessive speed at high risk locations

- research into active means of detecting the attention state of drivers
and intervening in the event of inattention

- improved containment of passengers by tram windows and doors

- setting up of an industry body to facilitate more effective cooperation
between UK tramway owners and operators on matters related to safety
performance and the development of common standards


I suppose most of us (me included) hadn't realised that the increasingly
sophisticated train safety systems and standards simply didn't apply to
trams. I wonder how many, if any, of these recommendations are used in
other trams, here or elsewhere? I suspect none, as Croydon uses standard
tram designs, as used elsewhere. So will other tram systems, in the UK and
elsewhere, also need these safety improvements?
Robin
2017-08-03 18:15:47 UTC
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On 03/08/2017 17:35, Recliner wrote:

<snip>
Post by Recliner
I suppose most of us (me included) hadn't realised that the increasingly
sophisticated train safety systems and standards simply didn't apply to
trams. I wonder how many, if any, of these recommendations are used in
other trams, here or elsewhere? I suspect none, as Croydon uses standard
tram designs, as used elsewhere. So will other tram systems, in the UK and
elsewhere, also need these safety improvements?
Will the final report include their cost-benefit assessments to support
the recommendations or will they - like most coroners - take the view
that it's not their job to consider resources, and so encourage the "no
price is too high to save the life of ..." approach common after any
"disaster" on rails?
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Roland Perry
2017-08-03 19:51:07 UTC
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Post by Robin
Will the final report include their cost-benefit assessments to support
the recommendations or will they - like most coroners - take the view
that it's not their job to consider resources, and so encourage the "no
price is too high to save the life of ..." approach common after any
"disaster" on rails?
Having something to ensure nothing bad happens if your drivers fall
asleep [sorry - lose awareness] at the wheel seems pretty fundamental.
--
Roland Perry
Robin
2017-08-04 07:35:43 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Robin
Will the final report include their cost-benefit assessments to
support the recommendations or will they - like most coroners - take
the view that it's not their job to consider resources, and so
encourage the "no price is too high to save the life of ..." approach
common after any "disaster" on rails?
Having something to ensure nothing bad happens if your drivers fall
asleep [sorry - lose awareness] at the wheel seems pretty fundamental.
Why "pretty fundamental" for trams but not for buses or coaches - often
travelling at the same or greater speeds?

Such devices may offer value for money on trams but not on the road (eg
because the current technology means they are easier to make work on
rail than on road). But it'd be nice to have evidence that are
recommended because they offer value money and not just because they
would have avoided one incident. And, as Recliner intimated, there are
rather a lot of trams operating elsewhere so the evidence might be
expected to include the use - or absence of use - of such devices
elsewhere.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Roland Perry
2017-08-04 08:05:20 UTC
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Post by Robin
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Robin
Will the final report include their cost-benefit assessments to
support the recommendations or will they - like most coroners - take
the view that it's not their job to consider resources, and so
encourage the "no price is too high to save the life of ..." approach
common after any "disaster" on rails?
Having something to ensure nothing bad happens if your drivers fall
asleep [sorry - lose awareness] at the wheel seems pretty fundamental.
Why "pretty fundamental" for trams but not for buses or coaches - often
travelling at the same or greater speeds?
Such devices may offer value for money on trams but not on the road (eg
because the current technology means they are easier to make work on
rail than on road).
There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't fall
asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses toppling
over because they took a bend too fast.
--
Roland Perry
Neil Williams
2017-08-04 08:44:03 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't fall
asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses toppling
over because they took a bend too fast.
It certainly does happen. Indeed, it's happened a lot more with double
decker buses/coaches than it has from trams (once).

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
Someone Somewhere
2017-08-04 09:05:25 UTC
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Post by Neil Williams
Post by Roland Perry
There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't fall
asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses toppling
over because they took a bend too fast.
It certainly does happen. Indeed, it's happened a lot more with double
decker buses/coaches than it has from trams (once).
Neil
Indeed - a quick search for coach overturned on google returns a
considerable number of examples. Some where the driver had also fallen
asleep...
Roland Perry
2017-08-04 09:20:54 UTC
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Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Roland Perry
There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't fall
asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses toppling
over because they took a bend too fast.
It certainly does happen. Indeed, it's happened a lot more with
double decker buses/coaches than it has from trams (once).
Neil
Indeed - a quick search for coach overturned on google returns a
considerable number of examples.
All the ones I found in a quick search were either because they'd
swerved to avoid another vehicle, or they'd left the road and typically
toppled into a ditch. Neither of these is very likely to be echoed on a
tramway.
--
Roland Perry
Someone Somewhere
2017-08-04 10:13:10 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Roland Perry
There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't fall
asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses toppling
over because they took a bend too fast.
It certainly does happen. Indeed, it's happened a lot more with
double decker buses/coaches than it has from trams (once).
Neil
Indeed - a quick search for coach overturned on google returns a
considerable number of examples.
All the ones I found in a quick search were either because they'd
swerved to avoid another vehicle, or they'd left the road and typically
toppled into a ditch. Neither of these is very likely to be echoed on a
tramway.
First link for coach overturned speeding on google is an accident from
2008 near Heathrow where the driver took the bend too quickly - 40
advisory limit, tachograph showed he was doing 55 in a heavily loaded
bus, and court was informed that over 45 given the circumstances would
cause the bus to become unstable.

3 killed, 60 injured - roughly the same number of casualties as the
Croydon tram crash.
Roland Perry
2017-08-04 10:20:49 UTC
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Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Roland Perry
There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't
fall asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses
toppling over because they took a bend too fast.
It certainly does happen. Indeed, it's happened a lot more with
double decker buses/coaches than it has from trams (once).
Neil
Indeed - a quick search for coach overturned on google returns a
considerable number of examples.
All the ones I found in a quick search were either because they'd
swerved to avoid another vehicle, or they'd left the road and
typically toppled into a ditch. Neither of these is very likely to be
echoed on a tramway.
First link for coach overturned speeding on google is an accident from
2008 near Heathrow where the driver took the bend too quickly - 40
advisory limit, tachograph showed he was doing 55 in a heavily loaded
bus, and court was informed that over 45 given the circumstances would
cause the bus to become unstable.
He left the road (see above) and bounced off crash barriers. I suspect
that ironically it was the knock from the second barrier which flipped
the coach.
Post by Someone Somewhere
3 killed, 60 injured - roughly the same number of casualties as the
Croydon tram crash.
Agreed, he was driving far too fast, but he hadn't fallen asleep.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2017-08-04 09:16:16 UTC
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Post by Neil Williams
Post by Roland Perry
There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't fall
asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses toppling
over because they took a bend too fast.
It certainly does happen. Indeed, it's happened a lot more
There's a lot more buses and coaches
Post by Neil Williams
with double decker buses/coaches than
Do you have a cite for one where it was speed, rather than a side effect
of the bus/coach having also left the road first?
Post by Neil Williams
it has from trams (once).
Sixty casualties. That's a whole bus-load in one go.
--
Roland Perry
Tony Dragon
2017-08-04 12:30:44 UTC
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Post by Neil Williams
Post by Roland Perry
There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't fall
asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses toppling
over because they took a bend too fast.
It certainly does happen. Indeed, it's happened a lot more with double
decker buses/coaches than it has from trams (once).
Neil
A bus and a tram met in Croydon, the bus derailed the tram.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1053231/Man-dies-horrific-bus-tram-pile-up.html

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Roland Perry
2017-08-04 15:09:03 UTC
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Post by Tony Dragon
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Roland Perry
There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't fall
asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses toppling
over because they took a bend too fast.
It certainly does happen. Indeed, it's happened a lot more with
double decker buses/coaches than it has from trams (once).
Neil
A bus and a tram met in Croydon, the bus derailed the tram.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1053231/Man-dies-horrific-bus-
tram-pile-up.html
'We do not know at this stage know how many people were on board
the bus or the tram, nor how many people were in the car,' a
Metropolitan Police spokesman said.

Because even if we take our socks off, we can't count up to four or
five, being the likely maximum number of people in the car.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-08-04 21:44:32 UTC
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Post by Neil Williams
Post by Roland Perry
There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't fall
asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses
toppling over because they took a bend too fast.
It certainly does happen. Indeed, it's happened a lot more with
double decker buses/coaches than it has from trams (once).
Used to happen regularly with trams. The bend at the bottom of Cedars Road
into Lavender Hill was a favourite.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Clank
2017-08-17 18:05:20 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Robin
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Robin
Will the final report include their cost-benefit assessments to
support the recommendations or will they - like most coroners - take
the view that it's not their job to consider resources, and so
encourage the "no price is too high to save the life of ..." approach
common after any "disaster" on rails?
Having something to ensure nothing bad happens if your drivers fall
asleep [sorry - lose awareness] at the wheel seems pretty fundamental.
Why "pretty fundamental" for trams but not for buses or coaches - often
travelling at the same or greater speeds?
Such devices may offer value for money on trams but not on the road (eg
because the current technology means they are easier to make work on
rail than on road).
There's more to do when driving a bus, therefore drivers don't fall
asleep as often. There are also very few instances of buses toppling
over because they took a bend too fast.
Are there a lot of instances of trams doing so, then? I must say that when
walking around L'viv, Istanbul, Bucharest, Moscow or Amsterdam - all with
larger tram networks than London (hell, than the UK I'd wager in most
cases), and in the case of L'viv at least extraordinarily low standards of
rail maintenance to boot - trams toppling like dominos at every corner do
not appear to be common...

In fact, I'm gonna bet that worldwide more buses have toppled over in the
last 12 months than trams in the last ten years...
Roland Perry
2017-08-17 21:18:47 UTC
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Post by Clank
I'm gonna bet that worldwide more buses have toppled over in the
last 12 months than trams in the last ten years...
While still on the road (remember, leaving the road and hitting a
kerb/barrier doesn't count). And what's the ratio of installed base of
buses vs trams.
--
Roland Perry
d***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-08-17 22:41:14 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Clank
I'm gonna bet that worldwide more buses have toppled over in the
last 12 months than trams in the last ten years...
While still on the road (remember, leaving the road and hitting a
kerb/barrier doesn't count). And what's the ratio of installed base of
buses vs trams.
Has a bendi bus ever done something like this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/CatastrophicFailure/comments/5z320d/prague_trolley_derails_into_crowd/

G.Harman
Roland Perry
2017-08-18 08:48:07 UTC
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Post by d***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Clank
I'm gonna bet that worldwide more buses have toppled over in the
last 12 months than trams in the last ten years...
While still on the road (remember, leaving the road and hitting a
kerb/barrier doesn't count). And what's the ratio of installed base of
buses vs trams.
Has a bendi bus ever done something like this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/CatastrophicFailure/comments/5z320d/prague_trolley_derails_into_crowd/
Does look somewhat due to over-speed.
--
Roland Perry
Clank
2017-08-18 15:23:07 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Clank
I'm gonna bet that worldwide more buses have toppled over in the
last 12 months than trams in the last ten years...
While still on the road (remember, leaving the road and hitting a
kerb/barrier doesn't count).
And why is that, pray tell? I presume this means the Croydon tram incident
doesn't count either, since it left the rails and hit an OLE support...
Post by Roland Perry
And what's the ratio of installed base of
buses vs trams.
I'm terms of investment to protect the most people, that's irrelevant -
solving the problem of buses rolling will save many more people than
solving the problem of trams rolling.
Roland Perry
2017-08-18 16:00:49 UTC
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Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Clank
I'm gonna bet that worldwide more buses have toppled over in the
last 12 months than trams in the last ten years...
While still on the road (remember, leaving the road and hitting a
kerb/barrier doesn't count).
And why is that, pray tell?
The activity being measured is over-speed causing the vehicle (bus or
tram) to topple over. A lot of the KSI in such a situation is caused by
the scraping of the broken windows on the ground/tracks.
Post by Clank
I presume this means the Croydon tram incident
doesn't count either, since it left the rails
toppled
Post by Clank
and hit an OLE support...
Having slid on its side.
Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
And what's the ratio of installed base of buses vs trams.
I'm terms of investment to protect the most people, that's irrelevant -
solving the problem of buses rolling will save many more people than
solving the problem of trams rolling.
Not if the investment has to be implemented on 1000x times as many
vehicles.

In any event, we are still a little short of reports of buses which
toppled over sideways *while on the road" and taking a curve too fast.

Vehicles leaving the road for a number of reasons, then eventually
hitting some obstacle which unusually toppled them over, will have a
different injury profile. Especially the ones that didn't end up
rolling.
--
Roland Perry
Clank
2017-08-18 17:35:34 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Clank
I'm gonna bet that worldwide more buses have toppled over in the
last 12 months than trams in the last ten years...
While still on the road (remember, leaving the road and hitting a
kerb/barrier doesn't count).
And why is that, pray tell?
The activity being measured is over-speed causing the vehicle (bus or
tram) to topple over. A lot of the KSI in such a situation is caused by
the scraping of the broken windows on the ground/tracks.
Post by Clank
I presume this means the Croydon tram incident
doesn't count either, since it left the rails
toppled
Post by Clank
and hit an OLE support...
Having slid on its side.
Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
And what's the ratio of installed base of buses vs trams.
I'm terms of investment to protect the most people, that's irrelevant -
solving the problem of buses rolling will save many more people than
solving the problem of trams rolling.
Not if the investment has to be implemented on 1000x times as many
vehicles.
In any event, we are still a little short of reports of buses which
toppled over sideways *while on the road" and taking a curve too fast.
Vehicles leaving the road for a number of reasons, then eventually
hitting some obstacle which unusually toppled them over, will have a
different injury profile. Especially the ones that didn't end up
rolling.
I'm going to ask a question I already know the answer to:

Is your interest in this to,

(A) consider safety recommendations which might have a positive effect on
the rate of injury in public transportation,
(B) to reassure yourself that you're always right and everyone else is wrong
by asserting that it is a scandal that the world did not implement
provisions to guard against a scenario whose definition is entirely within
your whim and will indeed change every time you are challenged?

The corollary question is,

Does your answer make you feel good about yourself and your priorities?



To make you feel comfortable, I will award bonus points for not answering
the question, general obfuscation, and appeal to authority/breeding/former
employers/the Hackney Carriage Licensing Board (Cantab).
Roland Perry
2017-08-18 19:27:01 UTC
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Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Clank
I'm gonna bet that worldwide more buses have toppled over in the
last 12 months than trams in the last ten years...
While still on the road (remember, leaving the road and hitting a
kerb/barrier doesn't count).
And why is that, pray tell?
The activity being measured is over-speed causing the vehicle (bus or
tram) to topple over. A lot of the KSI in such a situation is caused
by the scraping of the broken windows on the ground/tracks.
Post by Clank
I presume this means the Croydon tram incident
doesn't count either, since it left the rails
toppled
Post by Clank
and hit an OLE support...
Having slid on its side.
Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
And what's the ratio of installed base of buses vs trams.
I'm terms of investment to protect the most people, that's irrelevant -
solving the problem of buses rolling will save many more people than
solving the problem of trams rolling.
Not if the investment has to be implemented on 1000x times as many
vehicles.
In any event, we are still a little short of reports of buses which
toppled over sideways *while on the road" and taking a curve too fast.
Vehicles leaving the road for a number of reasons, then eventually
hitting some obstacle which unusually toppled them over, will have a
different injury profile. Especially the ones that didn't end up rolling.
Is your interest in this to,
(A) consider safety recommendations which might have a positive effect on
the rate of injury in public transportation,
Yes; and those recommendations should of course take into account the
severity and frequency of incidents, as well as the costs of rolling out
technological change.
Post by Clank
(B) to reassure yourself that you're always right and everyone else is wrong
by asserting that it is a scandal that the world did not implement
provisions to guard against a scenario whose definition is entirely within
your whim and will indeed change every time you are challenged?
It hasn't changed one iota.

Nor have you produced much evidence of buses trying to take bends at
3.5x the speed limit and toppling over as a result.
--
Roland Perry
Neil Williams
2017-08-04 08:43:28 UTC
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Post by Robin
Such devices may offer value for money on trams but not on the road (eg
because the current technology means they are easier to make work on
rail than on road). But it'd be nice to have evidence that are
recommended because they offer value money and not just because they
would have avoided one incident. And, as Recliner intimated, there
are rather a lot of trams operating elsewhere so the evidence might be
expected to include the use - or absence of use - of such devices
elsewhere.
I think it fundamentally raises the question - is a tram a bus on
rails, or a train on the road?

If we see it as the latter, up go costs, which means more people in
actual buses which have none of these standards.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
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