Discussion:
Beck's air map
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Recliner
2017-10-28 15:18:36 UTC
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It seems Harry Beck didn't confine himself to designing non-geographic Tube
maps. I came across this Imperial Airlines air route map he created in
1935:

Loading Image...:large

Air routes were rather infrequent back then, and Beck came up with a rather
complicated way of showing weekly, twice-weekly, etc frequencies. It seems
that even back then, airlines had alliances, but were more open about
code-shared flights than they are today.
Roland Perry
2017-10-28 18:14:23 UTC
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It seems that even back then, airlines had alliances, but were more
open about code-shared flights than they are today.
https://www.flightstats.com is pretty transparent about codeshares. It
even tells you which company operates the flight (rather than markets
it).

eg: "Operated by (YV) Mesa Airlines on behalf of (AA) American Airlines,
a codeshare flight by the following airlines:
(GF) Gulf Air, (AS) Alaska Airlines, (BA) British Airways"
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-10-28 19:06:49 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
It seems that even back then, airlines had alliances, but were more
open about code-shared flights than they are today.
https://www.flightstats.com is pretty transparent about codeshares. It
even tells you which company operates the flight (rather than markets
it).
eg: "Operated by (YV) Mesa Airlines on behalf of (AA) American Airlines,
(GF) Gulf Air, (AS) Alaska Airlines, (BA) British Airways"
Yes, you can usually find out, and sometimes the flight number gives it
away, but many pax are still surprised to discover whose metal they'll be
flying on.

Many years ago, I was amused when travelling from Quebec City to Ottawa,
that our small Beechcraft 1900 operated by a tiny local line, on behalf of
Canadian Airlines, was announced as a BA flight.
Roland Perry
2017-10-28 19:24:12 UTC
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In message
<656326100.530910037.032611.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 19:06:49 on Sat, 28 Oct 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
It seems that even back then, airlines had alliances, but were more
open about code-shared flights than they are today.
https://www.flightstats.com is pretty transparent about codeshares. It
even tells you which company operates the flight (rather than markets
it).
eg: "Operated by (YV) Mesa Airlines on behalf of (AA) American Airlines,
(GF) Gulf Air, (AS) Alaska Airlines, (BA) British Airways"
Yes, you can usually find out, and sometimes the flight number gives it
away, but
The main issue I've had reported to me (Virgin codeshare, at Gatwick
again) is which desk to check in at when the operator and codeshare are
in different terminals.
Post by Recliner
many pax are still surprised to discover whose metal they'll be
flying on.
More recently on a Delta flight to the USA which turned out to be
operated by AF.

However, the shorter the flight number, the more likely it's not a
codeshare from someone else.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-10-28 19:49:56 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 19:06:49 on Sat, 28 Oct 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
It seems that even back then, airlines had alliances, but were more
open about code-shared flights than they are today.
https://www.flightstats.com is pretty transparent about codeshares. It
even tells you which company operates the flight (rather than markets
it).
eg: "Operated by (YV) Mesa Airlines on behalf of (AA) American Airlines,
(GF) Gulf Air, (AS) Alaska Airlines, (BA) British Airways"
Yes, you can usually find out, and sometimes the flight number gives it
away, but
The main issue I've had reported to me (Virgin codeshare, at Gatwick
again) is which desk to check in at when the operator and codeshare are
in different terminals.
Yes, that can be very confusing.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
many pax are still surprised to discover whose metal they'll be
flying on.
More recently on a Delta flight to the USA which turned out to be
operated by AF.
However, the shorter the flight number, the more likely it's not a
codeshare from someone else.
Yes, four digit flight numbers are a clue it's a code-share.
Peter Able
2017-10-28 17:56:47 UTC
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Post by Recliner
It seems Harry Beck didn't confine himself to designing non-geographic Tube
maps. I came across this Imperial Airlines air route map he created in
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNOBfs-W0AA3KJm.jpg:large
Air routes were rather infrequent back then, and Beck came up with a rather
complicated way of showing weekly, twice-weekly, etc frequencies. It seems
that even back then, airlines had alliances, but were more open about
code-shared flights than they are today.
Excellent! I'd like to see a higher-res version. Have you the path that
might include it?

PA
Recliner
2017-10-28 19:21:27 UTC
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Post by Peter Able
Post by Recliner
It seems Harry Beck didn't confine himself to designing non-geographic Tube
maps. I came across this Imperial Airlines air route map he created in
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNOBfs-W0AA3KJm.jpg:large
Air routes were rather infrequent back then, and Beck came up with a rather
complicated way of showing weekly, twice-weekly, etc frequencies. It seems
that even back then, airlines had alliances, but were more open about
code-shared flights than they are today.
Excellent! I'd like to see a higher-res version. Have you the path that
might include it?
Here's another variant. I can't see Beck's name on it, but the schematic
map is certainly in his style:
<https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~267441~90041892:Imperial-Airways-Map-of-Empire-&-Eu>
Peter Able
2017-10-30 09:07:54 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Peter Able
Post by Recliner
It seems Harry Beck didn't confine himself to designing non-geographic Tube
maps. I came across this Imperial Airlines air route map he created in
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNOBfs-W0AA3KJm.jpg:large
Air routes were rather infrequent back then, and Beck came up with a rather
complicated way of showing weekly, twice-weekly, etc frequencies. It seems
that even back then, airlines had alliances, but were more open about
code-shared flights than they are today.
Excellent! I'd like to see a higher-res version. Have you the path that
might include it?
Here's another variant. I can't see Beck's name on it, but the schematic
<https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~267441~90041892:Imperial-Airways-Map-of-Empire-&-Eu>
Yes, I came across that, apparent, plagiarism of Beck's efforts. No sign of
a higher res vesion of Beck's original, though. Twitter seems to accept
small and orig in place of the term large in the URL, but in this case,
whilst the smaller version is smaller, the orig version is the same size as
the large one :-{{

Cheers,

PA
Roland Perry
2017-10-30 10:53:50 UTC
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Post by Peter Able
Post by Recliner
Here's another variant. I can't see Beck's name on it, but the schematic
<https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~267441~90041892:Imperial-Airways-Map-of-Empire-&-Eu>
Yes, I came across that, apparent, plagiarism of Beck's efforts.
"This extraordinary world map by noted Bauhaus designer and artist,
Laszlo Moholy-Nagy, draws on the pioneering information design work of
Harry Beck and his London subway maps"
--
Roland Perry
Peter Able
2017-10-30 15:23:51 UTC
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Post by Peter Able
Post by Recliner
Here's another variant. I can't see Beck's name on it, but the schematic
<https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~267441~90041892:Imperial-Airways-Map-of-Empire-&-Eu>
Yes, I came across that, apparent, plagiarism of Beck's efforts.
"This extraordinary world map by noted Bauhaus designer and artist, Laszlo
Moholy-Nagy, draws on the pioneering information design work of Harry Beck
and his London subway maps"
--
Roland Perry
Hmm. "draws on" - spelt p-l-a-g .....

PA
Roland Perry
2017-10-30 17:50:00 UTC
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Post by Peter Able
Post by Peter Able
Post by Recliner
Here's another variant. I can't see Beck's name on it, but the schematic
<https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~267441~90041892:Imperial-Airways-Map-of-Empire-&-Eu>
Yes, I came across that, apparent, plagiarism of Beck's efforts.
"This extraordinary world map by noted Bauhaus designer and artist, Laszlo
Moholy-Nagy, draws on the pioneering information design work of Harry Beck
and his London subway maps"
Hmm. "draws on" - spelt p-l-a-g .....
I think plagiarise implies copying something pretty much intact from one
work to another. This instance is simply very much "in the style of".
--
Roland Perry
Peter Able
2017-10-30 17:56:19 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Peter Able
Post by Peter Able
Post by Recliner
Here's another variant. I can't see Beck's name on it, but the schematic
<https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~267441~90041892:Imperial-Airways-Map-of-Empire-&-Eu>
Yes, I came across that, apparent, plagiarism of Beck's efforts.
"This extraordinary world map by noted Bauhaus designer and artist, Laszlo
Moholy-Nagy, draws on the pioneering information design work of Harry Beck
and his London subway maps"
Hmm. "draws on" - spelt p-l-a-g .....
I think plagiarise implies copying something pretty much intact from one
work to another. This instance is simply very much "in the style of".
--
Roland Perry
I don't doubt that you may well think that.

Dare you consult a dictionary, Roland?

This is overt plagiarism.

PA
Roland Perry
2017-10-30 19:56:15 UTC
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Post by Peter Able
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Peter Able
Post by Roland Perry
"This extraordinary world map by noted Bauhaus designer and artist,
Laszlo Moholy-Nagy, draws on the pioneering information design work
of Harry Beck and his London subway maps"
Hmm. "draws on" - spelt p-l-a-g .....
I think plagiarise implies copying something pretty much intact from one
work to another. This instance is simply very much "in the style of".
I don't doubt that you may well think that.
Dare you consult a dictionary, Roland?
This is overt plagiarism.
"the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them
off as one's own" where 'draws on the pioneering information design work
of Harry Beck' comprehensively refutes that.
--
Roland Perry
Basil Jet
2017-10-31 02:13:03 UTC
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I notice that the DLR now show multiple routes on their map.
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/dlr30-leaflet-and-map.pdf
Peter Able
2017-10-31 18:45:28 UTC
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Post by Peter Able
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Peter Able
Post by Roland Perry
"This extraordinary world map by noted Bauhaus designer and artist,
Laszlo Moholy-Nagy, draws on the pioneering information design work
of Harry Beck and his London subway maps"
Hmm. "draws on" - spelt p-l-a-g .....
I think plagiarise implies copying something pretty much intact from one
work to another. This instance is simply very much "in the style of".
I don't doubt that you may well think that.
Dare you consult a dictionary, Roland?
This is overt plagiarism.
"the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off
as one's own" where 'draws on the pioneering information design work of
Harry Beck' comprehensively refutes that.
and who wrote that quotation?
Roland Perry
2017-10-31 21:34:01 UTC
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Post by Peter Able
Post by Peter Able
This is overt plagiarism.
"the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off
as one's own" where 'draws on the pioneering information design work of
Harry Beck' comprehensively refutes that.
and who wrote that quotation?
The first is from an online dictionary, the second from David Rumsey's
website.
--
Roland Perry
Peter Able
2017-11-01 17:54:12 UTC
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Post by Peter Able
Post by Peter Able
This is overt plagiarism.
"the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off
as one's own" where 'draws on the pioneering information design work of
Harry Beck' comprehensively refutes that.
and who wrote that quotation?
David Rumsey's website..
Precisely.
Roland Perry
2017-11-02 07:35:14 UTC
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Post by Peter Able
Post by Peter Able
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Peter Able
This is overt plagiarism.
"the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing
them off as one's own" where 'draws on the pioneering information
design work of Harry Beck' comprehensively refutes that.
and who wrote that quotation?
David Rumsey's website..
Precisely.
Do you have any evidence the author was passing it off as their own?
--
Roland Perry
michael adams
2017-10-30 19:45:19 UTC
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Post by Peter Able
Post by Peter Able
Post by Recliner
Here's another variant. I can't see Beck's name on it, but the schematic
<https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~267441~90041892:Imperial-Airways-Map-of-Empire-&-Eu>
Yes, I came across that, apparent, plagiarism of Beck's efforts.
"This extraordinary world map by noted Bauhaus designer and artist, Laszlo
Moholy-Nagy, draws on the pioneering information design work of Harry Beck and his
London subway maps"
--
Roland Perry
Hmm. "draws on" - spelt p-l-a-g .....
Try looking up "without acknowledgement".

A first requirement for plagiarism is an intention to
deceive.
Post by Peter Able
PA
Could you please explain how the schematic map which Harry Beck
devised for the London Underground differed in any substantial
way from the schematic circuit diagrams which he produced as a
draughtsman during the day ?

At a superficial level I'd say both consist of nodes either
components or stations so arranged such that they can be
connected by lines either at right angles or diagonally.

Clearly you must think there's something more, as similarly
you clearly don't think that Harry Beck simply plagiarised
the principles laid down by the un-named originators of the
first circuit diagrams.

As presumably you're prepared for these true pioneers of
schematic diagrams to remain unrecognised by posterity.


michael adams

...
Clive Page
2017-10-30 10:50:15 UTC
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Not one of his best efforts, it seems to me.

The flights of associated companies being shown in black are much more prominent in the diagram than those of Imperial Airways, shown in a rather weedy reddish. Or perhaps they just faded?

Then the daily flights between, I assume, important routes are shown in a rather inconspicuous way with dashed lines, whereas the less frequent routes have solid colour. It's impossible to guess, without looking at the key, which routes have the greater frequencies. I'd have thought it would be a rather basic precept of graphic design to have prominence of the line proportion to service frequency, or at least proportional to something useful. And the representations of summer-only and winter-only seem to have no connection to each other.

Maybe this was a draft and he did a better one later?
Post by Recliner
It seems Harry Beck didn't confine himself to designing non-geographic Tube
maps. I came across this Imperial Airlines air route map he created in
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNOBfs-W0AA3KJm.jpg:large
Air routes were rather infrequent back then, and Beck came up with a rather
complicated way of showing weekly, twice-weekly, etc frequencies. It seems
that even back then, airlines had alliances, but were more open about
code-shared flights than they are today.
--
Clive Page
Roland Perry
2017-10-30 11:06:42 UTC
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Post by Clive Page
Not one of his best efforts, it seems to me.
The flights of associated companies being shown in black are much more prominent in the diagram than those of Imperial Airways, shown in a
rather weedy reddish. Or perhaps they just faded?
Then the daily flights between, I assume, important routes are shown in a rather inconspicuous way with dashed lines, whereas the less frequent
routes have solid colour. It's impossible to guess, without looking at the key, which routes have the greater frequencies. I'd have thought
it would be a rather basic precept of graphic design to have prominence of the line proportion to service frequency, or at least proportional
to something useful. And the representations of summer-only and winter-only seem to have no connection to each other.
Maybe this was a draft and he did a better one later?
Here's his early draft of the London map:

<https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/lTnPoIMNxFmabYxQ4dzIj9Wkkew=/800x0/filt
ers:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2720278/03.13
64558584.jpg>

I'd expect them to exist in various degrees of hand-drawn sophistication
before being productionised by an artist rather than a designer.

Perhaps recliner can tell us if this map was ever a public document
circulated by the airline.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-10-30 11:21:41 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Clive Page
Not one of his best efforts, it seems to me.
The flights of associated companies being shown in black are much more
prominent in the diagram than those of Imperial Airways, shown in a
rather weedy reddish. Or perhaps they just faded?
Then the daily flights between, I assume, important routes are shown in
a rather inconspicuous way with dashed lines, whereas the less frequent
routes have solid colour. It's impossible to guess, without looking at
the key, which routes have the greater frequencies. I'd have thought
it would be a rather basic precept of graphic design to have prominence
of the line proportion to service frequency, or at least proportional
to something useful. And the representations of summer-only and
winter-only seem to have no connection to each other.
Maybe this was a draft and he did a better one later?
<https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/lTnPoIMNxFmabYxQ4dzIj9Wkkew=/800x0/filt
ers:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2720278/03.13
64558584.jpg>
I'd expect them to exist in various degrees of hand-drawn sophistication
before being productionised by an artist rather than a designer.
Perhaps recliner can tell us if this map was ever a public document
circulated by the airline.
I don't know, as I just spotted it on Twitter. I'd not seen it before then,
not even in the old posters and ads that BA puts up in its lounges.
Roland Perry
2017-11-02 08:00:32 UTC
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In message
<7714179.531055136.633847.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septemb
er.org>, at 11:21:41 on Mon, 30 Oct 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
I'd expect them to exist in various degrees of hand-drawn sophistication
before being productionised by an artist rather than a designer.
Perhaps recliner can tell us if this map was ever a public document
circulated by the airline.
I don't know, as I just spotted it on Twitter.
Of course, one explanation is that it's a draft commissioned as part of
the process of producing the Maholoy-Nagy poster (which contains a
substantial geographic representation of the routes, as well as the Beck
insert).

The mileage numbers of the Beck map won't necessarily have been easy to
research independently, so perhaps he was a subcontractor for the bigger
project.
--
Roland Perry
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