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London trip report.
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Roland Perry
2017-07-17 15:38:57 UTC
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Roads are transport too, so I thought I'd share my experience from last
Friday.

Taking my car to be serviced somewhere in Leyton, the biggest driving
hazard by far was London Buses who bulldoze their way through oncoming
traffic when (as is commonplace) their side of the road covered in
double yellows etc is blocked by delivery drivers/courier vans.

And despite widespread 20mph limits, I didn't get the impression buses
thought they had to comply.

In other news, took my first ride on a TfL Rail train into Liverpool St,
and was dismayed by a "no alcohol" policy. And there weren't even any
football supporters on the train. Welcome to 1920's USA.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-07-17 16:07:51 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Roads are transport too, so I thought I'd share my experience from last
Friday.
Taking my car to be serviced somewhere in Leyton, the biggest driving
hazard by far was London Buses who bulldoze their way through oncoming
traffic when (as is commonplace) their side of the road covered in
double yellows etc is blocked by delivery drivers/courier vans.
And despite widespread 20mph limits, I didn't get the impression buses
thought they had to comply.
Yup, I think the bus drivers are well aware of the locations of speed
cameras, and in their absence, ignore 20mph limits.
Post by Roland Perry
In other news, took my first ride on a TfL Rail train into Liverpool St,
and was dismayed by a "no alcohol" policy. And there weren't even any
football supporters on the train. Welcome to 1920's USA.
All TfL trains and buses have had no a no-alcohol policy for almost a
decade.
Roland Perry
2017-07-17 16:55:23 UTC
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<1740087983.522000452.461090.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-sept
ember.org>, at 16:07:51 on Mon, 17 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In other news, took my first ride on a TfL Rail train into Liverpool St,
and was dismayed by a "no alcohol" policy. And there weren't even any
football supporters on the train. Welcome to 1920's USA.
All TfL trains and buses have had no a no-alcohol policy for almost a
decade.
Not something which makes any sense out in the wilds of Essex in the
daytime.
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2017-07-17 17:42:06 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 16:07:51 on Mon, 17 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In other news, took my first ride on a TfL Rail train into Liverpool St,
and was dismayed by a "no alcohol" policy. And there weren't even any
football supporters on the train. Welcome to 1920's USA.
All TfL trains and buses have had no a no-alcohol policy for almost a
decade.
Not something which makes any sense out in the wilds of Essex in the
daytime.
why not?

the mess caused by people discarding drinking containers has to be cleared
up wherever you are

tim
Post by Roland Perry
--
Roland Perry
BirchangerKen
2017-07-17 22:58:12 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 16:07:51 on Mon, 17 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In other news, took my first ride on a TfL Rail train into Liverpool St,
and was dismayed by a "no alcohol" policy. And there weren't even any
football supporters on the train. Welcome to 1920's USA.
All TfL trains and buses have had no a no-alcohol policy for almost a
decade.
Not something which makes any sense out in the wilds of Essex in the
daytime.
why not?
the mess caused by people discarding drinking containers has to be cleared
up wherever you are
I can only imagine you'd been drinking when you posted this.

There's no prohibition on food being consumed on TfL. McDonalds and
KFC detritus is far more of a problem that any alcohol containers in
any train I've ever been on. There are plenty of discarded cans, but
they almost always contained soft drinks, not a fine sustaining
beverage. There are also plenty of abandoned coffee cups.

But I repeat what I've said in in this thread and elsewhere. Punish,
and prohibit, behaviour where needed. Acting antisocially - and
that includes leaving litter - should be dealt with. Minding your own
business doing something that in a small minority of cases could lead
to antisocial behaviour should never be proscribed in a free society.
Nobody
2017-07-19 01:45:54 UTC
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Post by BirchangerKen
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 16:07:51 on Mon, 17 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In other news, took my first ride on a TfL Rail train into Liverpool St,
and was dismayed by a "no alcohol" policy. And there weren't even any
football supporters on the train. Welcome to 1920's USA.
All TfL trains and buses have had no a no-alcohol policy for almost a
decade.
Not something which makes any sense out in the wilds of Essex in the
daytime.
why not?
the mess caused by people discarding drinking containers has to be cleared
up wherever you are
I can only imagine you'd been drinking when you posted this.
There's no prohibition on food being consumed on TfL. McDonalds and
KFC detritus is far more of a problem that any alcohol containers in
any train I've ever been on. There are plenty of discarded cans, but
they almost always contained soft drinks, not a fine sustaining
beverage. There are also plenty of abandoned coffee cups.
But I repeat what I've said in in this thread and elsewhere. Punish,
and prohibit, behaviour where needed. Acting antisocially - and
that includes leaving litter - should be dealt with. Minding your own
business doing something that in a small minority of cases could lead
to antisocial behaviour should never be proscribed in a free society.
Define "anti-social'" behaviour.

What was considered such prior the 40's/50's/60's, ain't what it is
now.

To me, using the f-word in public earshot is totally unacceptable, but
try and enforce that 'quaint' idea.
BirchangerKen
2017-07-17 22:48:26 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
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ember.org>, at 16:07:51 on Mon, 17 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In other news, took my first ride on a TfL Rail train into Liverpool St,
and was dismayed by a "no alcohol" policy. And there weren't even any
football supporters on the train. Welcome to 1920's USA.
All TfL trains and buses have had no a no-alcohol policy for almost a
decade.
Not something which makes any sense out in the wilds of Essex in the
daytime.
I agree entirely. Punish antisocial behaviour by all means. Not legal
activity just in case it leads to an illegal act.

But I think that TfL's takeover of ex-BR routes has worse things: the
closing of perfectly good tiolets on their Overground class 317s, and
the pointless warnings against using interconnecting doors that are
used entirely safely on other operators using the same rolling stock.

Jeez - after a night out in London I enjoy my can of M&S gin and tonic
on the train home. It's not TfL so against no rules, but WTF should I
be unable to do this?
Recliner
2017-07-18 13:41:15 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 16:07:51 on Mon, 17 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In other news, took my first ride on a TfL Rail train into Liverpool St,
and was dismayed by a "no alcohol" policy. And there weren't even any
football supporters on the train. Welcome to 1920's USA.
All TfL trains and buses have had no a no-alcohol policy for almost a
decade.
Not something which makes any sense out in the wilds of Essex in the
daytime.
I think that it's much easier to enforce a simple blanket rule than a
more complex, nuanced rule that varies with time, circumstance and
location. It was the same with the smoking ban: rather than just ban
it underground, it was banned throughout the TfL estate, so you didn't
get arguments about whether no smoking signs were visible or whether
Earl's Court District line platforms were underground or not.

So, yes, the real desire was to ban drinking from, say, city centre
trains and buses after 21:00, but it's easier and much simpler to just
ban it everywhere, at all times.
Roland Perry
2017-07-18 13:58:48 UTC
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the real desire was to ban drinking from, say, city centre trains and
buses after 21:00, but it's easier and much simpler to just ban it
everywhere, at all times.
Such a pitiful excuse for a nationalised railway. I suppose people yearn
for this kind of fascist state across the whole network?

Corbyn: "I only get to sit on the floor, but at least it's a public
sector floor".
--
Roland Perry
Richard
2017-07-24 19:25:06 UTC
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On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 14:41:15 +0100, Recliner
Post by Recliner
I think that it's much easier to enforce a simple blanket rule than a
more complex, nuanced rule that varies with time, circumstance and
location. It was the same with the smoking ban: rather than just ban
it underground, it was banned throughout the TfL estate, so you didn't
get arguments about whether no smoking signs were visible or whether
Earl's Court District line platforms were underground or not.
So, yes, the real desire was to ban drinking from, say, city centre
trains and buses after 21:00, but it's easier and much simpler to just
ban it everywhere, at all times.
As far as I'm concerned it was Johnson's attempt to 'do something' in
transport, it was very early on in his first term. I didn't see the
need then, compared with general litter, feet on seats, window etching
(now almost absent) and I don't see it now, but then I don't often use
anything beginning with 'N'.

Richard.
Paul Corfield
2017-07-18 22:16:58 UTC
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Post by Recliner
All TfL trains and buses have had no a no-alcohol policy for almost a
decade.
A policy that is flouted on a daily basis across all modes. I have never seen anyone even attempt to enforce the rule. A ridiculous tokenistic "oh look I've done something" policy from the early days of Bozza's tenure at City Hall.
--
Paul C
via Google
Recliner
2017-07-18 22:32:18 UTC
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Post by Paul Corfield
Post by Recliner
All TfL trains and buses have had no a no-alcohol policy for almost a
decade.
A policy that is flouted on a daily basis across all modes. I have never
seen anyone even attempt to enforce the rule. A ridiculous tokenistic "oh
look I've done something" policy from the early days of Bozza's tenure at City Hall.
I've not seen anyone enforce it, but I've also never seen anyone flout it,
either — a real surprise. Perhaps I don't travel in the right areas and
times?
Offramp
2017-07-19 05:32:21 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Paul Corfield
Post by Recliner
All TfL trains and buses have had no a no-alcohol policy for almost a
decade.
A policy that is flouted on a daily basis across all modes. I have never
seen anyone even attempt to enforce the rule. A ridiculous tokenistic "oh
look I've done something" policy from the early days of Bozza's tenure at City Hall.
I've not seen anyone enforce it, but I've also never seen anyone flout it,
either — a real surprise. Perhaps I don't travel in the right areas and
times?
I'm with Recliner. In the last few years I haven't seen anyone drinking on public transport. I have seen people drinking energy drinks, and these sometimes come in lager-looking tins.

I have seen people vaping on half-empty carriages, but that doesn't bother me.
Roland Perry
2017-07-19 08:03:12 UTC
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Post by Offramp
In the last few years I haven't seen anyone drinking on public transport.
Wow. Go look at the inside of an east coast train that's just arrived
from Scotland, ignoring the free drinks in First Class, you may well
hardly be able to see some of the tables in Standard for the empty
tinnies.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2017-07-19 08:00:04 UTC
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<349976452.522110030.846010.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 22:32:18 on Tue, 18 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Paul Corfield
Post by Recliner
All TfL trains and buses have had no a no-alcohol policy for almost a
decade.
A policy that is flouted on a daily basis across all modes. I have never
seen anyone even attempt to enforce the rule. A ridiculous tokenistic "oh
look I've done something" policy from the early days of Bozza's tenure at City Hall.
I've not seen anyone enforce it, but I've also never seen anyone flout it,
either — a real surprise. Perhaps I don't travel in the right areas and
times?
I remember, back in the day, seeing highly inebriated and obstreperous
"street people" late at night hanging around on the Kings Cross Circle
Line platforms with cans of drink.
--
Roland Perry
Offramp
2017-07-19 15:37:37 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
I remember, back in the day
Okay, so this was in the daytime.
Post by Roland Perry
seeing highly inebriated and obstreperous
"street people" late at night
I give up!
Post by Roland Perry
Roland Perry
Paul Corfield
2017-07-24 11:28:56 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Paul Corfield
Post by Recliner
All TfL trains and buses have had no a no-alcohol policy for almost a
decade.
A policy that is flouted on a daily basis across all modes. I have never
seen anyone even attempt to enforce the rule. A ridiculous tokenistic "oh
look I've done something" policy from the early days of Bozza's tenure at City Hall.
I've not seen anyone enforce it, but I've also never seen anyone flout it,
either — a real surprise. Perhaps I don't travel in the right areas and
times?
I've seen building workers swilling lager on the way to work at 0700 in the morning and on the way home. One got on my local bus route about 1630 the other day with an open beer can. Catch a tube into town at around 7 or 8 pm on a Friday or Saturday - people openly swigging gin, vodka, whatever from bottles or filling their "water" bottles with such spirits. Plenty of booze drunk on night buses. I've not used the night tube yet but I can't believe that is immune from people drinking alcohol.

People are going to drink if they want to given the lack of enforcement and no obvious sanction or penalty.
--
Paul C
via Google
Jim Chisholm
2017-07-17 19:28:46 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
And despite widespread 20mph limits, I didn't get the impression buses
thought they had to comply.
All NEW London buses should be fitted with Intelligent Speed Assistance
see:
http://www.roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/4971.html.
(26 April 2016)
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-07-17 23:56:27 UTC
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Post by Jim Chisholm
Post by Roland Perry
And despite widespread 20mph limits, I didn't get the impression buses
thought they had to comply.
All NEW London buses should be fitted with Intelligent Speed Assistance
see: http://www.roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/4971.html.
(26 April 2016)
I think Leyton is a bit suburban to have got new buses yet, Jim.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Jim Chisholm
2017-07-20 19:08:45 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Jim Chisholm
Post by Roland Perry
And despite widespread 20mph limits, I didn't get the impression buses
thought they had to comply.
All NEW London buses should be fitted with Intelligent Speed Assistance
see: http://www.roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/4971.html.
(26 April 2016)
I think Leyton is a bit suburban to have got new buses yet, Jim.
Also note this report:
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/new-bus-safety-targets-needed-urgently-after-25-london-deaths-in-two-years-transport-report-says-a3589666.html
BirchangerKen
2017-07-21 09:48:35 UTC
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On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 20:08:45 +0100, Jim Chisholm
Post by Jim Chisholm
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Jim Chisholm
Post by Roland Perry
And despite widespread 20mph limits, I didn't get the impression buses
thought they had to comply.
All NEW London buses should be fitted with Intelligent Speed Assistance
see: http://www.roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/4971.html.
(26 April 2016)
I think Leyton is a bit suburban to have got new buses yet, Jim.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/new-bus-safety-targets-needed-urgently-after-25-london-deaths-in-two-years-transport-report-says-a3589666.html
Roughly one death per month with over 40 000 000 km driven and 200 000
000 passengers. How does that compare with other modes? Other
operators?
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-07-21 11:09:51 UTC
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Post by BirchangerKen
On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 20:08:45 +0100, Jim Chisholm
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Jim Chisholm
Post by Roland Perry
And despite widespread 20mph limits, I didn't get the impression
buses thought they had to comply.
All NEW London buses should be fitted with Intelligent Speed
Assistance see: http://www.roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/4971.html.
(26 April 2016)
I think Leyton is a bit suburban to have got new buses yet, Jim.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/new-bus-safety-targets-needed-urgen
tly-after-25-london-deaths-in-two-years-transport-report-says-a3589666.html
Post by BirchangerKen
Roughly one death per month with over 40 000 000 km driven and 200 000
000 passengers. How does that compare with other modes? Other
operators?
Heavy Commercial Vehicles, for example?
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Richard
2017-07-24 21:54:39 UTC
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Post by BirchangerKen
Roughly one death per month with over 40 000 000 km driven and 200 000
000 passengers. How does that compare with other modes? Other
operators?
I don't suppose all will agree but I find the standard of bus driving
in London to be excellent, given the traffic, general public, etc. The
customer facing stuff might be better compared with out of London
(Oxford, Brighton, most Stagecoach in my experience), but human nature
prevails - given what the drivers have to deal with every day - and
there are some people out there who manage to keep a smile for
everyone.

Richard.

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