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New York Times on Crossrail
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eastender
2017-07-31 14:02:34 UTC
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Good article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/31/world/europe/london-crossrail-uk-brexit.html?_r=0&hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=photo-spot-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news


"But standing one recent morning on that empty Crossrail platform,
where construction workers in orange gear and hard hats hauled shiny
metal panels to line the walls, I still couldn't help wondering whether
the new train leads toward another glorious era for this city, or
signals the end of one."
Roland Perry
2017-07-31 14:16:10 UTC
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Post by eastender
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/31/world/europe/london-crossrail-uk-brex
it.html?_r=0&hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&m
odule=photo-spot-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
"... Tottenham Court Road. Escalator banks descend through a sleek,
silent black ticket hall where towering, empty, white-tiled passageways
snake toward the new, vaulted train platform, curving like a half moon
into the subterranean darkness."

Ah, so the platforms do have a curve.

"hauled shiny metal panels to line the walls"

Oh dear, I hope those aren't inflammable cladding.
--
Roland Perry
Basil Jet
2017-07-31 20:22:45 UTC
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Post by eastender
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/31/world/europe/london-crossrail-uk-brexit.html?_r=0&hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=photo-spot-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
"But standing one recent morning on that empty Crossrail platform, where
construction workers in orange gear and hard hats hauled shiny metal
panels to line the walls, I still couldn't help wondering whether the
new train leads toward another glorious era for this city, or signals
the end of one."
The NYT is infamous for its bias. I'm surprised they didn't manage to
fit blaming Trump for something into it.
Arthur Conan Doyle
2017-07-31 22:33:50 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
The NYT is infamous for its bias. I'm surprised they didn't manage to
fit blaming Trump for something into it.
This. The photos were nice, but I'd ignore any of the words. The NYT is still
hoping someone will step in and cancel Brexit.
Nobody
2017-07-31 23:15:38 UTC
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On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 16:33:50 -0600, Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Basil Jet
The NYT is infamous for its bias. I'm surprised they didn't manage to
fit blaming Trump for something into it.
This. The photos were nice, but I'd ignore any of the words. The NYT is still
hoping someone will step in and cancel Brexit.
As probably do a fair swag of Brexiteers suffering from "OMG, what
'ave we done?"

Mind you, I'm happy: you lot carved about $CAD1,000 off a $5,800
cruise, denominated in GBP.
r***@ntlworld.com
2017-08-01 08:13:38 UTC
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Post by Nobody
On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 16:33:50 -0600, Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Basil Jet
The NYT is infamous for its bias. I'm surprised they didn't manage to
fit blaming Trump for something into it.
This. The photos were nice, but I'd ignore any of the words. The NYT is still
hoping someone will step in and cancel Brexit.
As probably do a fair swag of Brexiteers suffering from "OMG, what
'ave we done?"
Mind you, I'm happy: you lot carved about $CAD1,000 off a $5,800
cruise, denominated in GBP.
This Brexiteer is not suffering at all. Nor any of my friends.
We do all notice that many Remainers seem to want the U. K to
fail in the cowardly new world.
e27002
2017-08-01 12:03:01 UTC
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Post by r***@ntlworld.com
Post by Nobody
On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 16:33:50 -0600, Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Basil Jet
The NYT is infamous for its bias. I'm surprised they didn't manage to
fit blaming Trump for something into it.
This. The photos were nice, but I'd ignore any of the words. The NYT is still
hoping someone will step in and cancel Brexit.
As probably do a fair swag of Brexiteers suffering from "OMG, what
'ave we done?"
Mind you, I'm happy: you lot carved about $CAD1,000 off a $5,800
cruise, denominated in GBP.
This Brexiteer is not suffering at all. Nor any of my friends.
We do all notice that many Remainers seem to want the U. K to
fail in the cowardly new world.
Plus one.
Offramp
2017-08-01 13:54:07 UTC
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Post by e27002
Plus one.
Thank you, e27003.
Richard J.
2017-08-01 14:43:28 UTC
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Post by e27002
Post by r***@ntlworld.com
Post by Nobody
On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 16:33:50 -0600, Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Basil Jet
The NYT is infamous for its bias. I'm surprised they didn't manage to
fit blaming Trump for something into it.
This. The photos were nice, but I'd ignore any of the words. The NYT is still
hoping someone will step in and cancel Brexit.
As probably do a fair swag of Brexiteers suffering from "OMG, what
'ave we done?"
Mind you, I'm happy: you lot carved about $CAD1,000 off a $5,800
cruise, denominated in GBP.
This Brexiteer is not suffering at all. Nor any of my friends.
We do all notice that many Remainers seem to want the U. K to
fail in the cowardly new world.
Plus one.
Could we have that in proper English, please?
Otherwise, I'm not sure if one of these definitions applies ...

-"used in a forum post to indicate that the post serves no purpose other than to increase the poster's postcount"
or
- "often used in a sarcastic manner to indicate the pointlessness of the entire thread."
or
- you liked the previous post.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)
s***@potato.field
2017-08-01 15:34:18 UTC
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On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 15:43:28 +0100
Post by Richard J.
Post by e27002
Post by r***@ntlworld.com
Post by Nobody
On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 16:33:50 -0600, Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Basil Jet
The NYT is infamous for its bias. I'm surprised they didn't manage to
fit blaming Trump for something into it.
This. The photos were nice, but I'd ignore any of the words. The NYT is
still
Post by e27002
Post by r***@ntlworld.com
Post by Nobody
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
hoping someone will step in and cancel Brexit.
As probably do a fair swag of Brexiteers suffering from "OMG, what
'ave we done?"
Mind you, I'm happy: you lot carved about $CAD1,000 off a $5,800
cruise, denominated in GBP.
This Brexiteer is not suffering at all. Nor any of my friends.
We do all notice that many Remainers seem to want the U. K to
fail in the cowardly new world.
Plus one.
Could we have that in proper English, please?
Otherwise, I'm not sure if one of these definitions applies ...
Oh come on, you can't be that out of touch. Its +1 moderation points as used
on numerous web forums.

--
Spud
eastender
2017-08-01 14:34:52 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
The NYT is infamous for its bias. I'm surprised they didn't manage to
fit blaming Trump for something into it.
So why did they run this the other day:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/31/opinion/brexit-european-union-good-news.html?_r=0


The Good News on Brexit They're Not Telling You

By DANIEL HANNAN
Arthur Conan Doyle
2017-08-01 23:57:53 UTC
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Post by eastender
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/31/opinion/brexit-european-union-good-news.html?_r=0
The Good News on Brexit They're Not Telling You
By DANIEL HANNAN
That's an Op/Ed piece that does not reflect the NYT editorial position:

Daniel Hannan (@DanielJHannan), Conservative of South East England, is a member
of the European Parliament and the author, most recently, of “What Next: How to
Get the Best from Brexit.”

Occasionaly they'll let an opposing view through, just to make themselves feel
better.
Robin9
2017-08-02 09:07:21 UTC
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Similarly, Modern Railways has published an anti HS2 retort
from Christian Wolmar to a silly and juvenile attack from
Ian Walmsley in a previous edition.

I don't think Modern Railways is opposed to HS2.

(For what it's worth, I normally agree with Ian Walmsley and
disagree strongly with Christian Wolmar


--
Robin9
Recliner
2017-08-02 09:49:26 UTC
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Post by Robin9
Similarly, Modern Railways has published an anti HS2 retort
from Christian Wolmar to a silly and juvenile attack from
Ian Walmsley in a previous edition.
I don't think Modern Railways is opposed to HS2.
(For what it's worth, I normally agree with Ian Walmsley and
disagree strongly with Christian Wolmar)
Of course Wolmar normally writes for a rival railway mag, in which he
regularly attacks HS2 in between his political commentaries. Rail is also
pro-HS2 and pro-privatisation, but lets Womar take the opposite position on
both.
s***@potato.field
2017-08-02 09:57:41 UTC
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On Wed, 2 Aug 2017 09:49:26 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin9
Similarly, Modern Railways has published an anti HS2 retort
from Christian Wolmar to a silly and juvenile attack from
Ian Walmsley in a previous edition.
I don't think Modern Railways is opposed to HS2.
(For what it's worth, I normally agree with Ian Walmsley and
disagree strongly with Christian Wolmar)
Of course Wolmar normally writes for a rival railway mag, in which he
regularly attacks HS2 in between his political commentaries. Rail is also
pro-HS2 and pro-privatisation, but lets Womar take the opposite position on
both.
Meanwhile there's no money left in the kitty for the MML electrification
north of bedford or improvements and electrification of various northern
routes. I can't help thinking someone in the government wants a legacy project
to look back on, rather than something thats good value for money and actually
useful to the most people.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-08-02 10:04:23 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 2 Aug 2017 09:49:26 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin9
Similarly, Modern Railways has published an anti HS2 retort
from Christian Wolmar to a silly and juvenile attack from
Ian Walmsley in a previous edition.
I don't think Modern Railways is opposed to HS2.
(For what it's worth, I normally agree with Ian Walmsley and
disagree strongly with Christian Wolmar)
Of course Wolmar normally writes for a rival railway mag, in which he
regularly attacks HS2 in between his political commentaries. Rail is also
pro-HS2 and pro-privatisation, but lets Womar take the opposite position on
both.
Meanwhile there's no money left in the kitty for the MML electrification
north of bedford or improvements and electrification of various northern
routes.
I'm pretty sure that the MML will be electrified to Kettering (and Corby).
It's the sections north of there that are now off the agenda yet again.
Post by s***@potato.field
I can't help thinking someone in the government wants a legacy project
to look back on, rather than something thats good value for money and actually
useful to the most people.
Unfortunately, electrifying and enhancing our Victorian main lines is not
turning out to be good value for money. A new build line to enhance
capacity and speed might actually be much better value for money.
s***@potato.field
2017-08-02 10:23:22 UTC
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On Wed, 2 Aug 2017 10:04:23 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 2 Aug 2017 09:49:26 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin9
Similarly, Modern Railways has published an anti HS2 retort
from Christian Wolmar to a silly and juvenile attack from
Ian Walmsley in a previous edition.
I don't think Modern Railways is opposed to HS2.
(For what it's worth, I normally agree with Ian Walmsley and
disagree strongly with Christian Wolmar)
Of course Wolmar normally writes for a rival railway mag, in which he
regularly attacks HS2 in between his political commentaries. Rail is also
pro-HS2 and pro-privatisation, but lets Womar take the opposite position on
both.
Meanwhile there's no money left in the kitty for the MML electrification
north of bedford or improvements and electrification of various northern
routes.
I'm pretty sure that the MML will be electrified to Kettering (and Corby).
It's the sections north of there that are now off the agenda yet again.
Whats special about kettering compared to Nottingham and Derby which are
much larger connurbations?
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
I can't help thinking someone in the government wants a legacy project
to look back on, rather than something thats good value for money and
actually
Post by s***@potato.field
useful to the most people.
Unfortunately, electrifying and enhancing our Victorian main lines is not
turning out to be good value for money. A new build line to enhance
capacity and speed might actually be much better value for money.
HS2 isn't much use if you want to get across the pennines in a hurry.
And yes, I imagine sticking up catenary can be a problem in restrictive tunnels
and having to raise bridges. Of course if the HSE wasn't so against laying
any more 3rd rail (which is perfectly satisfactory for commuter lines) the
whole problem would go away. It doesn't have to be the type of 3rd rail in the
SE or liverpool, it could be much safer bottom contact as on the DLR.

--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-08-02 10:46:40 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
I'm pretty sure that the MML will be electrified to Kettering (and Corby).
It's the sections north of there that are now off the agenda yet again.
Whats special about kettering compared to Nottingham and Derby which are
much larger connurbations?
Only that it's the junction to Corby. Frankly, they should implement one
of those battery EMUs shuttling between Corby and Kettering - with
charging wires at either station - and leave north of Bedford to
diesels. At least until they can find the money to extend Thameslink to
Leicester.
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-08-02 10:52:28 UTC
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On Wed, 2 Aug 2017 11:46:40 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
I'm pretty sure that the MML will be electrified to Kettering (and Corby).
It's the sections north of there that are now off the agenda yet again.
Whats special about kettering compared to Nottingham and Derby which are
much larger connurbations?
Only that it's the junction to Corby. Frankly, they should implement one
So whats special about Corby? They're both past their best midlands towns
without much going for them.
Post by Roland Perry
of those battery EMUs shuttling between Corby and Kettering - with
charging wires at either station - and leave north of Bedford to
diesels. At least until they can find the money to extend Thameslink to
Leicester.
Either you find more paths for extra trains or no one south of Luton will
be able to get on in the rush hour if you extended Thameslink that far north.
Plus the timetable would probably become a work of fiction.
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-08-02 12:41:37 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 2 Aug 2017 11:46:40 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
I'm pretty sure that the MML will be electrified to Kettering (and Corby).
It's the sections north of there that are now off the agenda yet again.
Whats special about kettering compared to Nottingham and Derby which are
much larger connurbations?
Only that it's the junction to Corby. Frankly, they should implement one
So whats special about Corby?
At one time (until the station was re-opened) it was the biggest place
without a railway station.
Post by s***@potato.field
They're both past their best midlands towns without much going for
them.
People were trying to reverse that decline.
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
of those battery EMUs shuttling between Corby and Kettering - with
charging wires at either station - and leave north of Bedford to
diesels. At least until they can find the money to extend Thameslink to
Leicester.
Either you find more paths for extra trains or no one south of Luton will
be able to get on in the rush hour
Clearly you've not read the reports of train loading on the line.
Post by s***@potato.field
if you extended Thameslink that far north.
How far further north do you think Leicester is than Peterborough?
Post by s***@potato.field
Plus the timetable would probably become a work of fiction.
Why?
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-08-02 12:57:25 UTC
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On Wed, 2 Aug 2017 13:41:37 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
They're both past their best midlands towns without much going for
them.
People were trying to reverse that decline.
Great, but I would have thought leicester and nottingham would be first on
the midlands list, especially the latter.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Either you find more paths for extra trains or no one south of Luton will
be able to get on in the rush hour
Clearly you've not read the reports of train loading on the line.
I haven't. But I did have a friend who commuted on the line from herts for
a number of years and apparently it was cosy in the rush hour. Ok, this was
10 years ago now but I doubt the number of passengers has declined.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
if you extended Thameslink that far north.
How far further north do you think Leicester is than Peterborough?
IMO the Thameslink equivalent on the ELL is the Great Northern into Moorgate
and that only goes as far north as Stevenage. All the peterborough trains AFAIK
are fast trains that stop at very few stations.

--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-08-02 13:27:41 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 2 Aug 2017 13:41:37 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
They're both past their best midlands towns without much going for
them.
People were trying to reverse that decline.
Great, but I would have thought leicester and nottingham would be first on
the midlands list, especially the latter.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Either you find more paths for extra trains or no one south of Luton will
be able to get on in the rush hour
Clearly you've not read the reports of train loading on the line.
I haven't. But I did have a friend who commuted on the line from herts for
a number of years and apparently it was cosy in the rush hour. Ok, this was
10 years ago now but I doubt the number of passengers has declined.
The Leicester pax (who currently only have a share of 4tph much shorter
trains) will be spread across all the extended Bedford trains.
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
if you extended Thameslink that far north.
How far further north do you think Leicester is than Peterborough?
IMO the Thameslink equivalent on the ELL is the Great Northern into Moorgate
and that only goes as far north as Stevenage. All the peterborough trains AFAIK
are fast trains that stop at very few stations.
The only stations between Bedford and Leicester are Wellingborough,
Kettering and Market Harborough.
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-08-02 15:20:29 UTC
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On Wed, 2 Aug 2017 14:27:41 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
IMO the Thameslink equivalent on the ELL is the Great Northern into Moorgate
and that only goes as far north as Stevenage. All the peterborough trains
AFAIK
Post by s***@potato.field
are fast trains that stop at very few stations.
The only stations between Bedford and Leicester are Wellingborough,
Kettering and Market Harborough.
And those stations will attract everyone from surrounding villages and towns.
Plus its > twive the distance of london -> stevenage so plenty of scope for
the timekeeping to go pear shaped.

--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-08-02 16:41:10 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
IMO the Thameslink equivalent on the ELL is the Great Northern into Moorgate
and that only goes as far north as Stevenage. All the peterborough trains
AFAIK
Post by s***@potato.field
are fast trains that stop at very few stations.
The only stations between Bedford and Leicester are Wellingborough,
Kettering and Market Harborough.
And those stations will attract everyone from surrounding villages and towns.
More than the current faster EMT services to London?
Post by s***@potato.field
Plus its > twive the distance of london -> stevenage so plenty of scope for
the timekeeping to go pear shaped.
Stevenage is a red herring. The Thameslink services via the ECML will go
as far as Peterborough and Cambridge.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-08-02 21:36:09 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 2 Aug 2017 13:41:37 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
if you extended Thameslink that far north.
How far further north do you think Leicester is than Peterborough?
IMO the Thameslink equivalent on the ELL is the Great Northern into
Moorgate and that only goes as far north as Stevenage. All the
peterborough trains AFAIK
are fast trains that stop at very few stations.
I know you think it's above you to actually check before committing hands to
keyboard but I think you'll find that Thameslink services to Peterborough
start next year. Google "Thameslink Timetable 2018".

It will be a half-hourly service to Horsham calling at all stations between
Peterborough and Hatfield plus Potters Bar and Finsbury Park as far as the
GN section is concerned. This is as the present hourly slow GN trains from
King's Cross to Peterborough. They also replace present hourly semi-fast
trains off-peak though some extra peak trains to King's Cross will remain.
The latter will be the main use for residual class 365 units.

GTR have already constructed some stabling sidings at Peterborough to
accommodate the trains.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
s***@potato.field
2017-08-03 08:36:44 UTC
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On Wed, 02 Aug 2017 16:36:09 -0500
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 2 Aug 2017 13:41:37 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
if you extended Thameslink that far north.
How far further north do you think Leicester is than Peterborough?
IMO the Thameslink equivalent on the ELL is the Great Northern into
Moorgate and that only goes as far north as Stevenage. All the
peterborough trains AFAIK
are fast trains that stop at very few stations.
I know you think it's above you to actually check before committing hands to
keyboard but I think you'll find that Thameslink services to Peterborough
start next year. Google "Thameslink Timetable 2018".
I was talking about the current services.
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
It will be a half-hourly service to Horsham calling at all stations between
Peterborough and Hatfield plus Potters Bar and Finsbury Park as far as the
GN section is concerned. This is as the present hourly slow GN trains from
King's Cross to Peterborough. They also replace present hourly semi-fast
trains off-peak though some extra peak trains to King's Cross will remain.
The latter will be the main use for residual class 365 units.
As someone who uses the Moorgate line at least once a week at the moment and
witnesses the fiction the timetable has become, it'll be interesting to see
how they manage to keep even more trains to better punctuality than is being
managed at the moment.

As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's the link
to the current thameslink route?
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-08-03 10:38:16 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's the link
to the current thameslink route?
<Slaps forehead>

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G53001/2017/08/03/advanced
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-08-03 10:56:30 UTC
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On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 11:38:16 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's the
link
Post by s***@potato.field
to the current thameslink route?
<Slaps forehead>
Obviously you're familiar with "copenhagen junction" and "belle isle". I've
never heard of them and have no idea where they are.

--
Spud
Recliner
2017-08-03 10:59:22 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 11:38:16 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's the
link
Post by s***@potato.field
to the current thameslink route?
<Slaps forehead>
Obviously you're familiar with "copenhagen junction" and "belle isle". I've
never heard of them and have no idea where they are.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157685025875056
s***@potato.field
2017-08-03 11:15:53 UTC
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On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 11:59:22 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 11:38:16 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's the
link
Post by s***@potato.field
to the current thameslink route?
<Slaps forehead>
Obviously you're familiar with "copenhagen junction" and "belle isle". I've
never heard of them and have no idea where they are.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157685025875056
That looks like it was a fun day out. Did the graffiti vandals do requests?
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-08-03 11:24:42 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 11:59:22 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 11:38:16 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's the
link
Post by s***@potato.field
to the current thameslink route?
<Slaps forehead>
Obviously you're familiar with "copenhagen junction" and "belle isle". I've
never heard of them and have no idea where they are.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157685025875056
That looks like it was a fun day out. Did the graffiti vandals do requests?
You probably know them, so why don't you ask?
Roland Perry
2017-08-03 11:23:34 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's the
link
Post by s***@potato.field
to the current thameslink route?
<Slaps forehead>
Obviously you're familiar with "copenhagen junction" and "belle isle". I've
never heard of them and have no idea where they are.
Between Finsbury Park and St Pancras.
--
Roland Perry
Basil Jet
2017-08-03 14:49:05 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's the
link
Post by s***@potato.field
to the current thameslink route?
<Slaps forehead>
Obviously you're familiar with "copenhagen junction" and "belle isle". I've
never heard of them and have no idea where they are.
Between Finsbury Park and St Pancras.
Christ almighty, you didn't even *try* to convince Spud they'd built a
new viaduct from Potters Bar to Worcester Park.
Robin9
2017-08-04 16:20:57 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 11:38:16 +0100
-
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where'
the-
link-
to the current thameslink route?-
Slaps forehead-
Obviously you're familiar with "copenhagen junction" and "belle isle"
I've
never heard of them and have no idea where they are.
--
Spud
In the "Willesden Junction to Finsbury Park" thread, I linked to a
YouTube video -
-
which displays captions as to the locations being passed.
Copenhagen Junction is one of those. Belle Isle is name
given to the short space between the first two tunnels passed
through by trains leaving Kings Cross


--
Robin9
Recliner
2017-08-03 11:01:28 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's the link
to the current thameslink route?
<Slaps forehead>
Indeed!
Post by Roland Perry
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G53001/2017/08/03/advanced
I notice it's shown as a 365, but presumably it's more likely to be a
class 700 in reality?
s***@potato.field
2017-08-03 11:14:48 UTC
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On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 12:01:28 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's the
link
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
to the current thameslink route?
<Slaps forehead>
Indeed!
Indeed what? Is knowing the precise junction layouts of the various lines
a prerequsite of being able to discuss this?
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-08-03 11:24:06 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 12:01:28 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's the
link
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
to the current thameslink route?
<Slaps forehead>
Indeed!
Indeed what? Is knowing the precise junction layouts of the various lines
a prerequsite of being able to discuss this?
I think we all assumed anyone posting here as often as you do, pouring
scorn on all and sundry, might have at least the most basic knowledge
of one of the biggest rail projects in London, which has been going on
for more than two decades. You often express strong opinions on the
Thameslink project, so it was reasonable for us to assume you might
know at least a tiny bit about what you're criticising.

So, no, we didn't expect you to "know the precise junction layouts of
the various lines," but to at least know the basics of the huge
project, including where the Thameslink and ECML routes connect.
s***@potato.field
2017-08-03 13:09:18 UTC
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On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 12:24:06 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 12:01:28 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's the
link
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
to the current thameslink route?
<Slaps forehead>
Indeed!
Indeed what? Is knowing the precise junction layouts of the various lines
a prerequsite of being able to discuss this?
I think we all assumed anyone posting here as often as you do, pouring
scorn on all and sundry, might have at least the most basic knowledge
of one of the biggest rail projects in London, which has been going on
Well there are currently only 3 to speak of anyway. And as I haven't been
keeping up on the thameslink project since frankly it doesn't interest
me much I didn't even realise they'd bored any new tunnels. If its anything
like the "improved" St Pancras station which turned a 100m walk to the tube
into 500m one because they couldn't figure out how to extend platforms into
a tunnel (though oddly they managed to build an entire new station in a
pre-existing tunnel, go figure) then I will continue to pay little attention
to it unless when it starts it fucks up the moorgate line even more.
Post by Recliner
for more than two decades. You often express strong opinions on the
Thameslink project, so it was reasonable for us to assume you might
know at least a tiny bit about what you're criticising.
I never criticised this project. I've criticised thameslink when I used it
occasionally back in the day which as a paying passenger I'm entitled to do.
So what?
Post by Recliner
So, no, we didn't expect you to "know the precise junction layouts of
the various lines," but to at least know the basics of the huge
project, including where the Thameslink and ECML routes connect.
1km of new tunnel is hardly "huge". Crossrail is huge, this is an upgrade.

As an aside I can see the chord from blackfriars to london bridge from my
office. They've been attempting to re-lay about 200m of track for over a month
now and its still not even ballasted properly or had the 3rd rail reinstated.
No wonder this project has taken 2 decades if thats the speed they work at.

--
Spud
been working on re-
Roland Perry
2017-08-03 13:54:30 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's the
link
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
to the current thameslink route?
<Slaps forehead>
Indeed!
Indeed what? Is knowing the precise junction layouts of the various lines
a prerequsite of being able to discuss this?
I think we all assumed anyone posting here as often as you do, pouring
scorn on all and sundry, might have at least the most basic knowledge
of one of the biggest rail projects in London, which has been going on
Well there are currently only 3 to speak of anyway. And as I haven't been
keeping up on the thameslink project since frankly it doesn't interest
me much I didn't even realise they'd bored any new tunnels.
FSVO new; I think they must be ten years old by now. And iirc much was
probably cut and cover.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2017-08-03 11:25:44 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's the
link
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
to the current thameslink route?
<Slaps forehead>
Indeed!
Indeed what? Is knowing the precise junction layouts of the various lines
a prerequsite of being able to discuss this?
The link has been discussed since before they built SPILL. Do keep up!
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-08-04 01:29:21 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 12:01:28 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's
the link to the current thameslink route?
<Slaps forehead>
Indeed!
Indeed what? Is knowing the precise junction layouts of the various lines
a prerequsite of being able to discuss this?
No, but it would help you not look like a total prat.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
s***@potato.field
2017-08-04 09:48:34 UTC
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On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 20:29:21 -0500
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 12:01:28 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's
the link to the current thameslink route?
<Slaps forehead>
Indeed!
Indeed what? Is knowing the precise junction layouts of the various lines
a prerequsite of being able to discuss this?
No, but it would help you not look like a total prat.
When I start wearing an anorak and hanging around at the end of platforms
carrying a thermos flask and notebook I might give a shit. Until then...

--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-08-04 11:25:04 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
Indeed what? Is knowing the precise junction layouts of the various lines
a prerequsite of being able to discuss this?
No, but it would help you not look like a total prat.
When I start wearing an anorak and hanging around at the end of platforms
carrying a thermos flask and notebook I might give a shit. Until then...
...we will ignore everything you say, as you've now admitted it's
founded upon ignorance.
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-08-04 13:28:13 UTC
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On Fri, 4 Aug 2017 12:25:04 +0100
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
Indeed what? Is knowing the precise junction layouts of the various lines
a prerequsite of being able to discuss this?
No, but it would help you not look like a total prat.
When I start wearing an anorak and hanging around at the end of platforms
carrying a thermos flask and notebook I might give a shit. Until then...
....we will ignore everything you say, as you've now admitted it's
founded upon ignorance.
Feel free to point out where I said anything of the sort. In the meantime I'll
continue to ignore most of what you say as I've been doing for quite a while
as it happens.
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-08-04 15:31:33 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
Indeed what? Is knowing the precise junction layouts of the various lines
a prerequsite of being able to discuss this?
No, but it would help you not look like a total prat.
When I start wearing an anorak and hanging around at the end of platforms
carrying a thermos flask and notebook I might give a shit. Until then...
....we will ignore everything you say, as you've now admitted it's
founded upon ignorance.
Feel free to point out where I said anything of the sort.
Your clearly admitted ignorance of the most basic details of the
Thameslink routes.
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-08-07 08:29:05 UTC
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On Fri, 4 Aug 2017 16:31:33 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
Indeed what? Is knowing the precise junction layouts of the various lines
a prerequsite of being able to discuss this?
No, but it would help you not look like a total prat.
When I start wearing an anorak and hanging around at the end of platforms
carrying a thermos flask and notebook I might give a shit. Until then...
....we will ignore everything you say, as you've now admitted it's
founded upon ignorance.
Feel free to point out where I said anything of the sort.
Your clearly admitted ignorance of the most basic details of the
Thameslink routes.
So not knowing about part of the new thameslink route means I don't know
anything at all? Oh how handwaving convenient for your limp riposte.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-08-07 10:25:13 UTC
Reply
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 4 Aug 2017 16:31:33 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
Indeed what? Is knowing the precise junction layouts of the various lines
a prerequsite of being able to discuss this?
No, but it would help you not look like a total prat.
When I start wearing an anorak and hanging around at the end of platforms
carrying a thermos flask and notebook I might give a shit. Until then...
....we will ignore everything you say, as you've now admitted it's
founded upon ignorance.
Feel free to point out where I said anything of the sort.
Your clearly admitted ignorance of the most basic details of the
Thameslink routes.
So not knowing about part of the new thameslink route means I don't know
anything at all? Oh how handwaving convenient for your limp riposte.
You've also previously demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge about
the Thameslink route from Blackfriars to London Bridge in the thread
you started entitled 'Blackfriars <-> London Bridge:

"When was there last a service that went through both these stations?
I noticed theres a 3 track chord linking the line from blackfriars to
the charing X line but the tracks were rusty and there were some
road-rail maintenance machines sitting on it. Is it just for
occasional out of service stock movements now?"
s***@potato.field
2017-08-07 10:27:44 UTC
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On Mon, 07 Aug 2017 11:25:13 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 4 Aug 2017 16:31:33 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
Indeed what? Is knowing the precise junction layouts of the various
lines
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
a prerequsite of being able to discuss this?
No, but it would help you not look like a total prat.
When I start wearing an anorak and hanging around at the end of platforms
carrying a thermos flask and notebook I might give a shit. Until then...
....we will ignore everything you say, as you've now admitted it's
founded upon ignorance.
Feel free to point out where I said anything of the sort.
Your clearly admitted ignorance of the most basic details of the
Thameslink routes.
So not knowing about part of the new thameslink route means I don't know
anything at all? Oh how handwaving convenient for your limp riposte.
You've also previously demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge about
the Thameslink route from Blackfriars to London Bridge in the thread
And? Like I've said, I wasn't interested in the thameslink project. How does
that translate to "everything"?
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-08-07 15:01:39 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 07 Aug 2017 11:25:13 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 4 Aug 2017 16:31:33 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
Indeed what? Is knowing the precise junction layouts of the various
lines
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
a prerequsite of being able to discuss this?
No, but it would help you not look like a total prat.
When I start wearing an anorak and hanging around at the end of platforms
carrying a thermos flask and notebook I might give a shit. Until then...
....we will ignore everything you say, as you've now admitted it's
founded upon ignorance.
Feel free to point out where I said anything of the sort.
Your clearly admitted ignorance of the most basic details of the
Thameslink routes.
So not knowing about part of the new thameslink route means I don't know
anything at all? Oh how handwaving convenient for your limp riposte.
You've also previously demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge about
the Thameslink route from Blackfriars to London Bridge in the thread
And? Like I've said, I wasn't interested in the thameslink project. How does
that translate to "everything"?
It's a reasonable assumption to make about any line you don't use
regularly.
s***@potato.field
2017-08-08 08:49:27 UTC
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On Mon, 7 Aug 2017 15:01:39 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
And? Like I've said, I wasn't interested in the thameslink project. How does
that translate to "everything"?
It's a reasonable assumption to make about any line you don't use
regularly.
What odd logical fallacies you come up with sometimes.
--
Spud
Ding Bat
2017-08-08 05:18:27 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 4 Aug 2017 16:31:33 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
Indeed what? Is knowing the precise junction layouts of the various lines
a prerequsite of being able to discuss this?
No, but it would help you not look like a total prat.
When I start wearing an anorak and hanging around at the end of platforms
carrying a thermos flask and notebook I might give a shit. Until then...
....we will ignore everything you say, as you've now admitted it's
founded upon ignorance.
Feel free to point out where I said anything of the sort.
Your clearly admitted ignorance of the most basic details of the
Thameslink routes.
So not knowing about part of the new thameslink route means I don't know
anything at all? Oh how handwaving convenient for your limp riposte.
You've also previously demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge about
the Thameslink route from Blackfriars to London Bridge in the thread
"When was there last a service that went through both these stations?
I noticed theres a 3 track chord linking the line from blackfriars to
the charing X line but the tracks were rusty and there were some
road-rail maintenance machines sitting on it. Is it just for
occasional out of service stock movements now?"
What's wrong with lacking knowledge? You too don't know everything.
Recliner
2017-08-08 07:17:41 UTC
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Post by Ding Bat
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 4 Aug 2017 16:31:33 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
Indeed what? Is knowing the precise junction layouts of the various lines
a prerequsite of being able to discuss this?
No, but it would help you not look like a total prat.
When I start wearing an anorak and hanging around at the end of platforms
carrying a thermos flask and notebook I might give a shit. Until then...
....we will ignore everything you say, as you've now admitted it's
founded upon ignorance.
Feel free to point out where I said anything of the sort.
Your clearly admitted ignorance of the most basic details of the
Thameslink routes.
So not knowing about part of the new thameslink route means I don't know
anything at all? Oh how handwaving convenient for your limp riposte.
You've also previously demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge about
the Thameslink route from Blackfriars to London Bridge in the thread
"When was there last a service that went through both these stations?
I noticed theres a 3 track chord linking the line from blackfriars to
the charing X line but the tracks were rusty and there were some
road-rail maintenance machines sitting on it. Is it just for
occasional out of service stock movements now?"
What's wrong with lacking knowledge? You too don't know everything.
That's certainly true: there are many, many things I don't know. But I
don't go round pouring scorn on things I know little or nothing about, as
Spud/Boltar does.
s***@potato.field
2017-08-08 08:47:40 UTC
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On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 07:17:41 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Ding Bat
Post by Recliner
"When was there last a service that went through both these stations?
I noticed theres a 3 track chord linking the line from blackfriars to
the charing X line but the tracks were rusty and there were some
road-rail maintenance machines sitting on it. Is it just for
occasional out of service stock movements now?"
What's wrong with lacking knowledge? You too don't know everything.
That's certainly true: there are many, many things I don't know. But I
don't go round pouring scorn on things I know little or nothing about, as
Spud/Boltar does.
Such as? In case you hadn't noticed that example you cited is a simple
question.
--
Spud
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-08-04 21:44:31 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 20:29:21 -0500
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 12:01:28 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river,
where's the link to the current thameslink route?
<Slaps forehead>
Indeed!
Indeed what? Is knowing the precise junction layouts of the various
lines a prerequsite of being able to discuss this?
No, but it would help you not look like a total prat.
When I start wearing an anorak and hanging around at the end of platforms
carrying a thermos flask and notebook I might give a shit. Until then...
I don't do any of those things so no reason why you should either. Just feed
what you please to call your brain.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2017-08-03 11:24:45 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's the link
to the current thameslink route?
<Slaps forehead>
Indeed!
Post by Roland Perry
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G53001/2017/08/03/advanced
I notice it's shown as a 365, but presumably it's more likely to be a
class 700 in reality?
Probably.
--
Roland Perry
Ding Bat
2017-08-06 10:45:35 UTC
Reply
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Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's the
link to the current thameslink route?
Trains from the north either terminate at King's Cross or go to a through
station under St Pancras. To reach the latter, a tunnel was burrowed under
the canal to the north of St Pancras. When I checked a few months back,
the tunnel wouldn't be pressed into service for at least a year.
Recliner
2017-08-06 10:55:36 UTC
Reply
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Post by Ding Bat
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's the
link to the current thameslink route?
Trains from the north either terminate at King's Cross or go to a through
station under St Pancras. To reach the latter, a tunnel was burrowed under
the canal to the north of St Pancras.
The two Canal Tunnels, actually, built over a decade ago.
Post by Ding Bat
When I checked a few months back,
the tunnel wouldn't be pressed into service for at least a year.
Yes, they will finally go into passenger service next year, but as Roland
showed, the tunnels are already being used for ECS movements. It's on the
Thameslink for all, even Spud, to see:
http://www.thameslinkprogramme.co.uk/improvements/canal-tunnels
Ding Bat
2017-08-08 05:28:20 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Ding Bat
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's the
link to the current thameslink route?
Trains from the north either terminate at King's Cross or go to a through
station under St Pancras. To reach the latter, a tunnel was burrowed under
the canal to the north of St Pancras.
The two Canal Tunnels, actually, built over a decade ago.
They're unfortunately named. A canal tunnel used to be for waterborne vessels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_canal_tunnels_in_the_United_Kingdom

I was referring to the one for north to south traffic;
obviously, there's another for the other direction.
Post by Recliner
Post by Ding Bat
When I checked a few months back,
the tunnel wouldn't be pressed into service for at least a year.
Yes, they will finally go into passenger service next year, but as Roland
showed, the tunnels are already being used for ECS movements. It's on the
http://www.thameslinkprogramme.co.uk/improvements/canal-tunnels
Recliner
2017-08-08 07:18:59 UTC
Reply
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Post by Ding Bat
Post by Recliner
Post by Ding Bat
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's the
link to the current thameslink route?
Trains from the north either terminate at King's Cross or go to a through
station under St Pancras. To reach the latter, a tunnel was burrowed under
the canal to the north of St Pancras.
The two Canal Tunnels, actually, built over a decade ago.
They're unfortunately named. A canal tunnel used to be for waterborne vessels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_canal_tunnels_in_the_United_Kingdom
I agree, and it's also a rather ambiguous name: one that linked it to the
area might have been better (eg, St Pancras tunnels?).
Post by Ding Bat
I was referring to the one for north to south traffic;
obviously, there's another for the other direction.
Well, it might have been a double-track tunnel.
Ding Bat
2017-08-08 09:40:15 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Ding Bat
Post by Recliner
Post by Ding Bat
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's
the link to the current thameslink route?
Trains from the north either terminate at King's Cross or go to a through
station under St Pancras. To reach the latter, a tunnel was burrowed under
the canal to the north of St Pancras.
The two Canal Tunnels, actually, built over a decade ago.
They're unfortunately named. A canal tunnel used to be for waterborne vessels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_canal_tunnels_in_the_United_Kingdom
I agree, and it's also a rather ambiguous name: one that linked it to the
area might have been better (eg, St Pancras tunnels?).
Post by Ding Bat
I was referring to the one for north to south traffic;
obviously, there's another for the other direction.
Well, it might have been a double-track tunnel.
Tunneling today is done with an automated mole having a circular cross section,
so a Paris style semi-circular tunnel for double-track is impracticable.
Where does London have multi-track tunnels? Snow Hill? The route of the
former Circle Line? FWIW, the Canal tunnels' portal is double-track.
Basil Jet
2017-08-08 09:49:50 UTC
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Post by Ding Bat
Tunneling today is done with an automated mole having a circular cross section,
so a Paris style semi-circular tunnel for double-track is impracticable.
Where does London have multi-track tunnels?
There are numerous between Kings Cross and Potters Bar. I doubt they are
all cut-and-cover.
Recliner
2017-08-08 10:54:42 UTC
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On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 02:40:15 -0700 (PDT), Ding Bat
Post by Ding Bat
Post by Recliner
Post by Ding Bat
Post by Recliner
Post by Ding Bat
Post by s***@potato.field
As an aside, how do trains on the ECML get south of the river, where's
the link to the current thameslink route?
Trains from the north either terminate at King's Cross or go to a through
station under St Pancras. To reach the latter, a tunnel was burrowed under
the canal to the north of St Pancras.
The two Canal Tunnels, actually, built over a decade ago.
They're unfortunately named. A canal tunnel used to be for waterborne vessels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_canal_tunnels_in_the_United_Kingdom
I agree, and it's also a rather ambiguous name: one that linked it to the
area might have been better (eg, St Pancras tunnels?).
Post by Ding Bat
I was referring to the one for north to south traffic;
obviously, there's another for the other direction.
Well, it might have been a double-track tunnel.
Tunneling today is done with an automated mole having a circular cross section,
so a Paris style semi-circular tunnel for double-track is impracticable.
Where does London have multi-track tunnels? Snow Hill? The route of the
former Circle Line? FWIW, the Canal tunnels' portal is double-track.
That's true of most Tube tunnel portals, as the initial shallow
section is cut and cover. The TBMs only do the deep tunneling.

All of the sub-surface LU line tunnels are cut and cover. That's not
just the Circle line, but the Met line to Finchley Road and the
District line tunnels in East London. The Piccadilly line tunnel to
Hatton Cross is also shallow cut and cover double track. All of the
old mainline railway tunnels are also cut and cover, and usually
double track. Even the Brunel ELL Thames tunnel, though obviously not
cut and cover, is double-track. I've not seen an analysis, but there
must be almost as much double track tunnel in central London as deep
bore single track tube tunnels.

Recliner
2017-08-02 11:39:39 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
I'm pretty sure that the MML will be electrified to Kettering (and Corby).
It's the sections north of there that are now off the agenda yet again.
Whats special about kettering compared to Nottingham and Derby which are
much larger connurbations?
Only that it's the junction to Corby. Frankly, they should implement one
of those battery EMUs shuttling between Corby and Kettering - with
charging wires at either station - and leave north of Bedford to
diesels. At least until they can find the money to extend Thameslink to
Leicester.
A class 700 all the way to Leicester? Ouch!
Roland Perry
2017-08-02 12:43:37 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
I'm pretty sure that the MML will be electrified to Kettering (and Corby).
It's the sections north of there that are now off the agenda yet again.
Whats special about kettering compared to Nottingham and Derby which are
much larger connurbations?
Only that it's the junction to Corby. Frankly, they should implement one
of those battery EMUs shuttling between Corby and Kettering - with
charging wires at either station - and leave north of Bedford to
diesels. At least until they can find the money to extend Thameslink to
Leicester.
A class 700 all the way to Leicester? Ouch!
How far further north do you think Leicester is than Peterborough?
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-08-02 13:19:14 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
I'm pretty sure that the MML will be electrified to Kettering (and Corby).
It's the sections north of there that are now off the agenda yet again.
Whats special about kettering compared to Nottingham and Derby which are
much larger connurbations?
Only that it's the junction to Corby. Frankly, they should implement one
of those battery EMUs shuttling between Corby and Kettering - with
charging wires at either station - and leave north of Bedford to
diesels. At least until they can find the money to extend Thameslink to
Leicester.
A class 700 all the way to Leicester? Ouch!
How far further north do you think Leicester is than Peterborough?
By rail, I'd have thought it was nearly 20 miles further?

Mind you, I wouldn't want to travel even as far as Peterborough on a
class 700.
Roland Perry
2017-08-02 13:34:02 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
A class 700 all the way to Leicester? Ouch!
How far further north do you think Leicester is than Peterborough?
By rail, I'd have thought it was nearly 20 miles further?
Very close in mileage. For trains with a similar number of stops it's
just 7 minutes. And that's with diesel on the MML, an electric train
should be able to close the gap significantly.
Post by Recliner
Mind you, I wouldn't want to travel even as far as Peterborough on a
class 700.
That's a different issue, but affects both routes.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-08-02 13:43:58 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
A class 700 all the way to Leicester? Ouch!
How far further north do you think Leicester is than Peterborough?
By rail, I'd have thought it was nearly 20 miles further?
Very close in mileage. For trains with a similar number of stops it's
just 7 minutes. And that's with diesel on the MML, an electric train
should be able to close the gap significantly.
Or not, as the case may be: the current diesels can travel at up to
125mph, but the wiring to Bedford was only designed for 100mph
running. And IEPs on diesel power probably won't be able to get up to
125mph. So if the HSTs are replaced by IEPs, the service may actually
slow down.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Mind you, I wouldn't want to travel even as far as Peterborough on a
class 700.
That's a different issue, but affects both routes.
Indeed so.
s***@potato.field
2017-08-02 15:21:18 UTC
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On Wed, 02 Aug 2017 14:43:58 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
A class 700 all the way to Leicester? Ouch!
How far further north do you think Leicester is than Peterborough?
By rail, I'd have thought it was nearly 20 miles further?
Very close in mileage. For trains with a similar number of stops it's
just 7 minutes. And that's with diesel on the MML, an electric train
should be able to close the gap significantly.
Or not, as the case may be: the current diesels can travel at up to
125mph, but the wiring to Bedford was only designed for 100mph
running. And IEPs on diesel power probably won't be able to get up to
125mph. So if the HSTs are replaced by IEPs, the service may actually
slow down.
Thats an interesting point. I suppose the DoT would argue the better
acceleration of the IEP will make up for it but I suspect thats unlikely
over longer distances.

--
Spud
Recliner
2017-08-02 15:37:37 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 02 Aug 2017 14:43:58 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
A class 700 all the way to Leicester? Ouch!
How far further north do you think Leicester is than Peterborough?
By rail, I'd have thought it was nearly 20 miles further?
Very close in mileage. For trains with a similar number of stops it's
just 7 minutes. And that's with diesel on the MML, an electric train
should be able to close the gap significantly.
Or not, as the case may be: the current diesels can travel at up to
125mph, but the wiring to Bedford was only designed for 100mph
running. And IEPs on diesel power probably won't be able to get up to
125mph. So if the HSTs are replaced by IEPs, the service may actually
slow down.
Thats an interesting point. I suppose the DoT would argue the better
acceleration of the IEP will make up for it but I suspect thats unlikely
over longer distances.
Better acceleration under the wires, yes, but not on diesel north of
Kettering. So you have three zones:

1. SPILL to Bedford. Already electrified, but only designed for 100mph
trains. There was a project to upgrade it for more, faster trains, but I
don't know if that project will continue. If it doesn't, IEPs will have
good acceleration, but lower top speeds than the old diesels.

2. Bedford to Kettering. Newly electrified, suitable for 125 mph electric
or diesel trains. IEPs will outperform the existing diesels.

3. Kettering to Leicester and on to Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield.
Electrification work started, but work will be suspended indefinitely.
Bi-mode IEPs will be able to run, but performance will be worse than
current diesel trains, specially the Meridians.
Roland Perry
2017-08-02 16:48:10 UTC
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In message
<1874599084.523380771.084306.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-sept
ember.org>, at 15:37:37 on Wed, 2 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
A class 700 all the way to Leicester? Ouch!
How far further north do you think Leicester is than Peterborough?
By rail, I'd have thought it was nearly 20 miles further?
Very close in mileage. For trains with a similar number of stops it's
just 7 minutes. And that's with diesel on the MML, an electric train
should be able to close the gap significantly.
Or not, as the case may be: the current diesels can travel at up to
125mph, but the wiring to Bedford was only designed for 100mph
running. And IEPs on diesel power probably won't be able to get up to
125mph. So if the HSTs are replaced by IEPs, the service may actually
slow down.
Thats an interesting point. I suppose the DoT would argue the better
acceleration of the IEP will make up for it but I suspect thats unlikely
over longer distances.
Better acceleration under the wires, yes, but not on diesel north of
1. SPILL to Bedford. Already electrified, but only designed for 100mph
trains. There was a project to upgrade it for more, faster trains, but I
don't know if that project will continue. If it doesn't, IEPs will have
good acceleration, but lower top speeds than the old diesels.
But IEPs aren't expected on that line.
Post by Recliner
2. Bedford to Kettering. Newly electrified,
Is it, already?
Post by Recliner
suitable for 125 mph electric
or diesel trains. IEPs will outperform the existing diesels.
3. Kettering to Leicester and on to Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield.
Electrification work started,
Just a few bridge works.
Post by Recliner
but work will be suspended indefinitely. Bi-mode IEPs will be able to
run, but performance will be worse than current diesel trains,
specially the Meridians.
So keep the Meridians.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-08-02 19:27:13 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 15:37:37 on Wed, 2 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
A class 700 all the way to Leicester? Ouch!
How far further north do you think Leicester is than Peterborough?
By rail, I'd have thought it was nearly 20 miles further?
Very close in mileage. For trains with a similar number of stops it's
just 7 minutes. And that's with diesel on the MML, an electric train
should be able to close the gap significantly.
Or not, as the case may be: the current diesels can travel at up to
125mph, but the wiring to Bedford was only designed for 100mph
running. And IEPs on diesel power probably won't be able to get up to
125mph. So if the HSTs are replaced by IEPs, the service may actually
slow down.
Thats an interesting point. I suppose the DoT would argue the better
acceleration of the IEP will make up for it but I suspect thats unlikely
over longer distances.
Better acceleration under the wires, yes, but not on diesel north of
1. SPILL to Bedford. Already electrified, but only designed for 100mph
trains. There was a project to upgrade it for more, faster trains, but I
don't know if that project will continue. If it doesn't, IEPs will have
good acceleration, but lower top speeds than the old diesels.
But IEPs aren't expected on that line.
Aren't they...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
2. Bedford to Kettering. Newly electrified,
Is it, already?
Not completed, but intended to be.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
suitable for 125 mph electric
or diesel trains. IEPs will outperform the existing diesels.
3. Kettering to Leicester and on to Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield.
Electrification work started,
Just a few bridge works.
Post by Recliner
but work will be suspended indefinitely. Bi-mode IEPs will be able to
run, but performance will be worse than current diesel trains,
specially the Meridians.
So keep the Meridians.
Yes, but not the HSTs.
Roland Perry
2017-08-03 06:44:52 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
1. SPILL to Bedford. Already electrified, but only designed for 100mph
trains. There was a project to upgrade it for more, faster trains, but I
don't know if that project will continue. If it doesn't, IEPs will have
good acceleration, but lower top speeds than the old diesels.
But IEPs aren't expected on that line.
Aren't they...
No, all the ones on order are spoken for by VTEC and GWR.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
2. Bedford to Kettering. Newly electrified,
Is it, already?
Not completed, but intended to be.
We are talking about NR and Grayling here. The only thing you can
reasonably expect is that whatever they claim today may change tomorrow.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
suitable for 125 mph electric
or diesel trains. IEPs will outperform the existing diesels.
3. Kettering to Leicester and on to Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield.
Electrification work started,
Just a few bridge works.
Post by Recliner
but work will be suspended indefinitely. Bi-mode IEPs will be able to
run, but performance will be worse than current diesel trains,
specially the Meridians.
So keep the Meridians.
Yes, but not the HSTs.
There's only one tph (to Nottingham) operated by HSTs, and now
electrification has been cancelled they'll have to find something else
to replace the HST. But I doubt it'll be IEPs.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-08-03 07:19:00 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
1. SPILL to Bedford. Already electrified, but only designed for 100mph
trains. There was a project to upgrade it for more, faster trains, but I
don't know if that project will continue. If it doesn't, IEPs will have
good acceleration, but lower top speeds than the old diesels.
But IEPs aren't expected on that line.
Aren't they...
No, all the ones on order are spoken for by VTEC and GWR.
Not true: do your research.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
2. Bedford to Kettering. Newly electrified,
Is it, already?
Not completed, but intended to be.
We are talking about NR and Grayling here. The only thing you can
reasonably expect is that whatever they claim today may change tomorrow.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
suitable for 125 mph electric
or diesel trains. IEPs will outperform the existing diesels.
3. Kettering to Leicester and on to Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield.
Electrification work started,
Just a few bridge works.
Post by Recliner
but work will be suspended indefinitely. Bi-mode IEPs will be able to
run, but performance will be worse than current diesel trains,
specially the Meridians.
So keep the Meridians.
Yes, but not the HSTs.
There's only one tph (to Nottingham) operated by HSTs, and now
electrification has been cancelled they'll have to find something else
to replace the HST. But I doubt it'll be IEPs.
Doubt it all you like…
Roland Perry
2017-08-03 11:28:02 UTC
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<701667835.523437678.070500.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 07:19:00 on Thu, 3 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
But IEPs aren't expected on that line.
Aren't they...
No, all the ones on order are spoken for by VTEC and GWR.
Not true: do your research.
Cite please.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
There's only one tph (to Nottingham) operated by HSTs, and now
electrification has been cancelled they'll have to find something else
to replace the HST. But I doubt it'll be IEPs.
Doubt it all you like…
It makes no sense to have an IEP mini-fleet to run 1tph.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-08-03 11:50:05 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 07:19:00 on Thu, 3 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
But IEPs aren't expected on that line.
Aren't they...
No, all the ones on order are spoken for by VTEC and GWR.
Not true: do your research.
Cite please.
Class 802/2s have been ordered for Hull Trains (5) and TPE (19).
You'll be delighted that this is confirmed by Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_802#Fleet_details
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
There's only one tph (to Nottingham) operated by HSTs, and now
electrification has been cancelled they'll have to find something else
to replace the HST. But I doubt it'll be IEPs.
Doubt it all you like…
It makes no sense to have an IEP mini-fleet to run 1tph.
There's six HSTs. Grayling says bi-modes will replace them. Can you
think of any other bi-modes available for immediate purchase with 100+
mph capability? If Hull trains can operate five, why shouldn't EMT?
Presumably Hitachi will maintain them.
Recliner
2017-08-03 12:23:47 UTC
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On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 12:50:05 +0100, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 07:19:00 on Thu, 3 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
But IEPs aren't expected on that line.
Aren't they...
No, all the ones on order are spoken for by VTEC and GWR.
Not true: do your research.
Cite please.
Class 802/2s have been ordered for Hull Trains (5) and TPE (19).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_802#Fleet_details
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
There's only one tph (to Nottingham) operated by HSTs, and now
electrification has been cancelled they'll have to find something else
to replace the HST. But I doubt it'll be IEPs.
Doubt it all you like…
It makes no sense to have an IEP mini-fleet to run 1tph.
There's six HSTs. Grayling says bi-modes will replace them. Can you
think of any other bi-modes available for immediate purchase with 100+
mph capability? If Hull trains can operate five, why shouldn't EMT?
Presumably Hitachi will maintain them.
Actually, I've just looked again at the Rail article, and it sounds
like the class 802 order could be much larger. It talks about bi-modes
to Sheffield, which suggests that more or even the whole of the
existing diesel fleet (27x222s and 9 HSTs) could be replaced by 802s.

I suppose it'll be decided by the DfT this summer, as there won't be
time for the next franchise operator to select an HST replacement
before they have to go, and it makes little sense for Stagecoach to
select the new stock as it may have lost the franchise before it
arrives (as with the 707s on SWT). As Grayling is confidently talking
about bi-modes, the decision may well have been taken already. They
may ask for bids, but I don't see who but Hitachi could deliver in
time.
Roland Perry
2017-08-03 14:53:56 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 07:19:00 on Thu, 3 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
But IEPs aren't expected on that line.
Aren't they...
No, all the ones on order are spoken for by VTEC and GWR.
Not true: do your research.
Cite please.
Class 802/2s have been ordered for Hull Trains (5) and TPE (19).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_802#Fleet_details
Glad to see you have joined the "Wikipedia says it" bandwagon.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
There's only one tph (to Nottingham) operated by HSTs, and now
electrification has been cancelled they'll have to find something else
to replace the HST. But I doubt it'll be IEPs.
Doubt it all you like…
It makes no sense to have an IEP mini-fleet to run 1tph.
There's six HSTs.
Wiki says they have 24 power cars. I agree that you probably only
actually need about six sets. But Cricklewood has numerous parked up
during the day (rather than shuttling between Nottingham and London).

<http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/CRKLDPT/2017/08/03/0200-0159?s
tp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=EM>
Post by Recliner
Grayling says bi-modes will replace them.
He's waffling.
Post by Recliner
Can you think of any other bi-modes available for immediate purchase
with 100+ mph capability? If Hull trains can operate five, why
shouldn't EMT? Presumably Hitachi will maintain them.
More likely EMT's successor will get Hull's Adelante's cascaded to them,
like the Pioneers before them.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-08-03 15:34:15 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 07:19:00 on Thu, 3 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
But IEPs aren't expected on that line.
Aren't they...
No, all the ones on order are spoken for by VTEC and GWR.
Not true: do your research.
Cite please.
Class 802/2s have been ordered for Hull Trains (5) and TPE (19).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_802#Fleet_details
Glad to see you have joined the "Wikipedia says it" bandwagon.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
There's only one tph (to Nottingham) operated by HSTs, and now
electrification has been cancelled they'll have to find something else
to replace the HST. But I doubt it'll be IEPs.
Doubt it all you like…
It makes no sense to have an IEP mini-fleet to run 1tph.
There's six HSTs.
Wiki says they have 24 power cars. I agree that you probably only
actually need about six sets. But Cricklewood has numerous parked up
during the day (rather than shuttling between Nottingham and London).
<http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/CRKLDPT/2017/08/03/0200-0159?s
tp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=EM>
Post by Recliner
Grayling says bi-modes will replace them.
He's waffling.
No, you're the one who's waffling, having already told us that no IEPs had
been ordered other than for GWR and EC, and that no magazines had yet
covered the story that IEPs would be used on the MML.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Can you think of any other bi-modes available for immediate purchase
with 100+ mph capability? If Hull trains can operate five, why
shouldn't EMT? Presumably Hitachi will maintain them.
More likely EMT's successor will get Hull's Adelante's cascaded to them,
like the Pioneers before them.
You seem to have developed a taste for being repeatedly proved wrong…

I don't think we'll have long to wait for the class 802 order; the only
question is how many. I suspect it may be another mass extinction job.
Arthur Figgis
2017-08-04 23:02:59 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 07:19:00 on Thu, 3 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
But IEPs aren't expected on that line.
Aren't they...
No, all the ones on order are spoken for by VTEC and GWR.
Not true: do your research.
Cite please.
Class 802/2s have been ordered for Hull Trains (5) and TPE (19).
IEP is a DfT procurement programme, rather than a type of rolling stock.
The Hull Trains and TPE trains (and some of the GWR ones) are being
bought conventionally by "normal" ROSCOs, rather than as part of the IEP.

cf random industrial saddle tanks not necessarily being J94s, or Javelin
being a brand name for a service to Stratford during the 2012 Olympics
which was operated on behalf of (cont'd platform 94)
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Recliner
2017-08-05 04:50:40 UTC
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Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 07:19:00 on Thu, 3 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
But IEPs aren't expected on that line.
Aren't they...
No, all the ones on order are spoken for by VTEC and GWR.
Not true: do your research.
Cite please.
Class 802/2s have been ordered for Hull Trains (5) and TPE (19).
IEP is a DfT procurement programme, rather than a type of rolling stock.
The Hull Trains and TPE trains (and some of the GWR ones) are being
bought conventionally by "normal" ROSCOs, rather than as part of the IEP.
Yes, I know, but it's a convenient, widely-used shorthand that everyone
understands. And this stock might well be ordered by the DfT anyway.
Post by Arthur Figgis
cf random industrial saddle tanks not necessarily being J94s, or Javelin
being a brand name for a service to Stratford during the 2012 Olympics
which was operated on behalf of (cont'd platform 94)
Roland Perry
2017-08-05 06:33:28 UTC
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Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
But IEPs aren't expected on that line.
Aren't they...
No, all the ones on order are spoken for by VTEC and GWR.
Not true: do your research.
Cite please.
Class 802/2s have been ordered for Hull Trains (5) and TPE (19).
IEP is a DfT procurement programme, rather than a type of rolling
stock. The Hull Trains and TPE trains (and some of the GWR ones) are
being bought conventionally by "normal" ROSCOs, rather than as part of
the IEP.
While I agree with that, until an order is placed for class
800-something for the MML then it's just as much vapourware
as this for 'The North':

"... deploying alternative-fuel trains on the route by 2021",

the date for the MML refranchise,

the deadline for new tiolets in HSTs,

and most ludicrous: "hydrogen power".

ps. and there's always the weasel words - "subject to business case"
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-08-05 10:30:40 UTC
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00:02:59 on Sat, 5 Aug 2017, Arthur Figgis
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
But IEPs aren't expected on that line.
Aren't they...
No, all the ones on order are spoken for by VTEC and GWR.
Not true: do your research.
Cite please.
Class 802/2s have been ordered for Hull Trains (5) and TPE (19).
IEP is a DfT procurement programme, rather than a type of rolling
stock. The Hull Trains and TPE trains (and some of the GWR ones) are
being bought conventionally by "normal" ROSCOs, rather than as part of
the IEP.
While I agree with that, until an order is placed for class
800-something for the MML then it's just as much vapourware
"... deploying alternative-fuel trains on the route by 2021",
the date for the MML refranchise,
the deadline for new tiolets in HSTs,
and most ludicrous: "hydrogen power".
ps. and there's always the weasel words - "subject to business case"
You forgot bionic duckweed. See Roger Ford /passim./
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2017-08-02 16:46:36 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
A class 700 all the way to Leicester? Ouch!
How far further north do you think Leicester is than Peterborough?
By rail, I'd have thought it was nearly 20 miles further?
Very close in mileage. For trains with a similar number of stops it's
just 7 minutes. And that's with diesel on the MML, an electric train
should be able to close the gap significantly.
Or not, as the case may be: the current diesels can travel at up to
125mph, but the wiring to Bedford was only designed for 100mph
Even if the latter is true (I don't recall anyone saying that the MML
electrification to Sheffield would mean re-doing London-Bedford), the
line speed for the InterCity trains south of Bedford isn't as high as
125mph.
Post by Recliner
running. And IEPs on diesel power probably won't be able to get up to
125mph.
Huh? The InterCity trains on MML will converge upon Meridians/Voyagers,
once the HSTs are retired.
Post by Recliner
So if the HSTs are replaced by IEPs,
They won't be.
Post by Recliner
the service may actually slow down.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-08-02 19:26:51 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
A class 700 all the way to Leicester? Ouch!
How far further north do you think Leicester is than Peterborough?
By rail, I'd have thought it was nearly 20 miles further?
Very close in mileage. For trains with a similar number of stops it's
just 7 minutes. And that's with diesel on the MML, an electric train
should be able to close the gap significantly.
Or not, as the case may be: the current diesels can travel at up to
125mph, but the wiring to Bedford was only designed for 100mph
Even if the latter is true (I don't recall anyone saying that the MML
electrification to Sheffield would mean re-doing London-Bedford), the
line speed for the InterCity trains south of Bedford isn't as high as
125mph.
Isn't it over 100mph in places?
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
running. And IEPs on diesel power probably won't be able to get up to
125mph.
Huh? The InterCity trains on MML will converge upon Meridians/Voyagers,
once the HSTs are retired.
Where will they get them from?
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
So if the HSTs are replaced by IEPs,
They won't be.
I take it you don't read any railway magazines?
Roland Perry
2017-08-03 06:49:24 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
A class 700 all the way to Leicester? Ouch!
How far further north do you think Leicester is than Peterborough?
By rail, I'd have thought it was nearly 20 miles further?
Very close in mileage. For trains with a similar number of stops it's
just 7 minutes. And that's with diesel on the MML, an electric train
should be able to close the gap significantly.
Or not, as the case may be: the current diesels can travel at up to
125mph, but the wiring to Bedford was only designed for 100mph
Even if the latter is true (I don't recall anyone saying that the MML
electrification to Sheffield would mean re-doing London-Bedford), the
line speed for the InterCity trains south of Bedford isn't as high as
125mph.
Isn't it over 100mph in places?
Why does that matter - it's 4 track so the Meridians and Thameslink
trains can be segregated.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
running. And IEPs on diesel power probably won't be able to get up to
125mph.
Huh? The InterCity trains on MML will converge upon Meridians/Voyagers,
once the HSTs are retired.
Where will they get them from?
They only need enough for 1tph.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
So if the HSTs are replaced by IEPs,
They won't be.
I take it you don't read any railway magazines?
I don't read magazines yet to be printed. MML electrification was only
cancelled ten days ago.
--
Roland Perry
Basil Jet
2017-08-03 07:57:04 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
I take it you don't read any railway magazines?
I don't read magazines yet to be printed. MML electrification was only
cancelled ten days ago.
RAIL dated yesterday (Wednesday) has the story on its front cover.
Recliner
2017-08-03 08:03:22 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
I take it you don't read any railway magazines?
I don't read magazines yet to be printed. MML electrification was only
cancelled ten days ago.
RAIL dated yesterday (Wednesday) has the story on its front cover.
Indeed so, and subscribers received their copies earlier in the week, as
per usual. Even before that, there had been strong speculation that
something like this would happen.
Roland Perry
2017-08-03 11:28:44 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
I take it you don't read any railway magazines?
I don't read magazines yet to be printed. MML electrification was
only cancelled ten days ago.
RAIL dated yesterday (Wednesday) has the story on its front cover.
What does LIAR say about the fleet post-HST?
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-08-03 11:51:17 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
I take it you don't read any railway magazines?
I don't read magazines yet to be printed. MML electrification was
only cancelled ten days ago.
RAIL dated yesterday (Wednesday) has the story on its front cover.
What does LIAR say about the fleet post-HST?
It quotes Grayling as saying that bi-modes will be used. No doubt,
with your superior knowledge on the subject, you'll correct them and
him?
Roland Perry
2017-08-03 13:56:06 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
I take it you don't read any railway magazines?
I don't read magazines yet to be printed. MML electrification was
only cancelled ten days ago.
RAIL dated yesterday (Wednesday) has the story on its front cover.
What does LIAR say about the fleet post-HST?
It quotes Grayling as saying that bi-modes will be used.
Ask again in three weeks, and you'll probably get a different answer.
He's just regurgitating a somewhat tired figleaf.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-08-04 06:07:58 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
I take it you don't read any railway magazines?
I don't read magazines yet to be printed. MML electrification was
only cancelled ten days ago.
RAIL dated yesterday (Wednesday) has the story on its front cover.
What does LIAR say about the fleet post-HST?
It quotes Grayling as saying that bi-modes will be used.
Ask again in three weeks, and you'll probably get a different answer.
He's just regurgitating a somewhat tired figleaf.
Serious question: does Grayling have a reputation for regularly changing
his mind? Offhand, I can't think of any examples. He was a poor justice
minister, but his bad policies weren't overturned during his period in
office. And he's been too ideological in the DfT, but I don't recall him
changing his mind at the drop of a hat. If anything, he's pig-headed.

Truncating the electrification project was an inevitable decision,
following NR's failure to deliver, and probably reflects the mandarins'
long term scepticism about electrification. Choosing the DfT-specified IEP
for the MML would also be in line with their policies for other main lines.
I doubt that Grayling knows much about rolling stock, other than on his
local line, so he's probably just accepting civil service advice. Why do
you think that would change?

In any case, I have a strong suspicion that the decision on bi-modes was
taken at the same time that they decided not to electrify beyond Kettering
and Corby. So it's very unlikely he'll change his mind in the next three
weeks. But why do you think he would?
Recliner
2017-08-02 23:41:07 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
A class 700 all the way to Leicester? Ouch!
How far further north do you think Leicester is than Peterborough?
By rail, I'd have thought it was nearly 20 miles further?
Very close in mileage.
Hardly: here are the actual figures:
Peterborough: 76m 29h (76.36m)
Leicester: 99m 07ch (99.09m)

So Leicester is almost 23 miles further from London, a bit more than my
quick initial guess. I note that you describe a 30% difference as 'very
close'. I'll remember that the next time you nit-pick over much smaller
differences.

Perhaps you should know the answers *before* setting challenges for people
more than capable of doing their own research?
Roland Perry
2017-08-03 11:32:56 UTC
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In message
<861720880.523409474.830476.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 23:41:07 on Wed, 2 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
A class 700 all the way to Leicester? Ouch!
How far further north do you think Leicester is than Peterborough?
By rail, I'd have thought it was nearly 20 miles further?
Very close in mileage.
Peterborough: 76m 29h (76.36m)
Leicester: 99m 07ch (99.09m)
I'm not going to fall out over 99-76 being not close enough to 20.
Post by Recliner
So Leicester is almost 23 miles further from London, a bit more than my
quick initial guess. I note that you describe a 30% difference as 'very
close'. I'll remember that the next time you nit-pick over much smaller
differences.
Like I said, what's 3 miles?
Post by Recliner
Perhaps you should know the answers *before* setting challenges for people
more than capable of doing their own research?
The classic statistic is that Peterborough is further north than
Wolverhampton (few people believe that until you show them a map).
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-08-03 11:55:40 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 23:41:07 on Wed, 2 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
A class 700 all the way to Leicester? Ouch!
How far further north do you think Leicester is than Peterborough?
By rail, I'd have thought it was nearly 20 miles further?
Very close in mileage.
Peterborough: 76m 29h (76.36m)
Leicester: 99m 07ch (99.09m)
I'm not going to fall out over 99-76 being not close enough to 20.
No, but you thought the difference was much less than that; 20 was my
guess before I checked.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
So Leicester is almost 23 miles further from London, a bit more than my
quick initial guess. I note that you describe a 30% difference as 'very
close'. I'll remember that the next time you nit-pick over much smaller
differences.
Like I said, what's 3 miles?
You described 99.09 miles as "very close in mileage" to 76.36 miles.
It's actually about 30% more.

My guess of 20 miles difference was much closer (though still not
quite right).
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Perhaps you should know the answers *before* setting challenges for people
more than capable of doing their own research?
The classic statistic is that Peterborough is further north than
Wolverhampton (few people believe that until you show them a map).
Quite possibly, but it's the rail distances that matter in this case,
not latitude.
Roland Perry
2017-08-03 12:37:09 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
By rail, I'd have thought it was nearly 20 miles further?
Very close in mileage.
Peterborough: 76m 29h (76.36m)
Leicester: 99m 07ch (99.09m)
I'm not going to fall out over 99-76 being not close enough to 20.
No, but you thought the difference was much less than that; 20 was my
guess before I checked.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
So Leicester is almost 23 miles further from London, a bit more than my
quick initial guess. I note that you describe a 30% difference as 'very
close'. I'll remember that the next time you nit-pick over much smaller
differences.
Like I said, what's 3 miles?
You described 99.09 miles as "very close in mileage" to 76.36 miles.
It's actually about 30% more.
My guess of 20 miles difference was much closer (though still not
quite right).
I agreed that your estimate of 20 was "very close" to the actual answer.

Are you arguing just for the sake of it now?
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The classic statistic is that Peterborough is further north than
Wolverhampton (few people believe that until you show them a map).
Quite possibly, but it's the rail distances that matter in this case,
not latitude.
Most people think it's the time onboard which matters most. But we've
seen that timing is not your strong suit.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-08-03 12:55:05 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
By rail, I'd have thought it was nearly 20 miles further?
Very close in mileage.
Peterborough: 76m 29h (76.36m)
Leicester: 99m 07ch (99.09m)
I'm not going to fall out over 99-76 being not close enough to 20.
No, but you thought the difference was much less than that; 20 was my
guess before I checked.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
So Leicester is almost 23 miles further from London, a bit more than my
quick initial guess. I note that you describe a 30% difference as 'very
close'. I'll remember that the next time you nit-pick over much smaller
differences.
Like I said, what's 3 miles?
You described 99.09 miles as "very close in mileage" to 76.36 miles.
It's actually about 30% more.
My guess of 20 miles difference was much closer (though still not
quite right).
I agreed that your estimate of 20 was "very close" to the actual answer.
Ah, I must have misunderstood you. You appeared to be saying that my
guess of "nearly 20 miles" was too high, and that the two routes were
"Very close in mileage".
Post by Roland Perry
Are you arguing just for the sake of it now?
No, I respect your world championship status.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The classic statistic is that Peterborough is further north than
Wolverhampton (few people believe that until you show them a map).
Quite possibly, but it's the rail distances that matter in this case,
not latitude.
Most people think it's the time onboard which matters most. But we've
seen that timing is not your strong suit.
No, I'm not nearly as imaginative as you. I'm a boring engineer who
simply sticks to the facts, and doesn't feel the need to invent new
ones when proved wrong.

As an aside, and don't take this the wrong way, but have you recently
had some traumatic event? You seem to be arguing much more than
usual, often claiming expertise that you don't have. Perhaps you
should take a break of a few weeks from posting on, or even reading,
these news groups?
Roland Perry
2017-08-03 13:52:21 UTC
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Post by Recliner
As an aside, and don't take this the wrong way, but have you recently
had some traumatic event? You seem to be arguing much more than
usual, often claiming expertise that you don't have. Perhaps you
should take a break of a few weeks from posting on, or even reading,
these news groups?
I've recently become a bit less tolerant of people spouting nonsense, I
agree.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-08-03 15:49:05 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
As an aside, and don't take this the wrong way, but have you recently
had some traumatic event? You seem to be arguing much more than
usual, often claiming expertise that you don't have. Perhaps you
should take a break of a few weeks from posting on, or even reading,
these news groups?
I've recently become a bit less tolerant of people spouting nonsense, I
agree.
You must be getting very angry with yourself, then, shown by your bad
temper, as your own nonsense rate has shot up lately.
Arthur Figgis
2017-08-04 23:07:06 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
As an aside, and don't take this the wrong way, but have you recently
had some traumatic event? You seem to be arguing much more than
usual, often claiming expertise that you don't have. Perhaps you
should take a break of a few weeks from posting on, or even reading,
these news groups?
I've recently become a bit less tolerant of people spouting nonsense, I
agree.
Usenet being a brilliant place to go to avoid people spouting nonsense...
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
e27002
2017-08-02 10:41:22 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 2 Aug 2017 09:49:26 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin9
Similarly, Modern Railways has published an anti HS2 retort
from Christian Wolmar to a silly and juvenile attack from
Ian Walmsley in a previous edition.
I don't think Modern Railways is opposed to HS2.
(For what it's worth, I normally agree with Ian Walmsley and
disagree strongly with Christian Wolmar)
Of course Wolmar normally writes for a rival railway mag, in which he
regularly attacks HS2 in between his political commentaries. Rail is also
pro-HS2 and pro-privatisation, but lets Womar take the opposite position on
both.
Meanwhile there's no money left in the kitty for the MML electrification
north of bedford or improvements and electrification of various northern
routes. I can't help thinking someone in the government wants a legacy project
to look back on, rather than something thats good value for money and actually
useful to the most people.
+1 :-)
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