Discussion:
Crossrail transition
(too old to reply)
Paul Corfield
2017-10-09 11:18:53 UTC
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Another TfL paper - this time setting out progress for Crossrail and the preparations for running into Heathrow from next May and the wider preparation for start of Central London services in 14 months time.

https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/pic-20171013-agenda-item13.pdf

You will note that several issues are now on critical paths with little flexibility to cope with delays. These centre largely around getting signalling systems tested and integrated and also obtaining the large number of sign offs for the safe introduction of a lot of new railway assets.

Oyster and Contactless ticketing to Heathrow via HEX and Crossrail should be introduced next May according to the paper.
--
Paul C
via Google
Someone Somewhere
2017-10-09 11:22:12 UTC
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Post by Paul Corfield
Another TfL paper - this time setting out progress for Crossrail and the preparations for running into Heathrow from next May and the wider preparation for start of Central London services in 14 months time.
https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/pic-20171013-agenda-item13.pdf
You will note that several issues are now on critical paths with little flexibility to cope with delays. These centre largely around getting signalling systems tested and integrated and also obtaining the large number of sign offs for the safe introduction of a lot of new railway assets.
Oyster and Contactless ticketing to Heathrow via HEX and Crossrail should be introduced next May according to the paper.
Interesting - thanks.

Do we know what the fare levels to Heathrow will be yet, or is that
still up in the air (pun not intended, the trains aren't planes)?
Roland Perry
2017-10-09 12:47:01 UTC
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Post by Someone Somewhere
Do we know what the fare levels to Heathrow will be yet, or is that
still up in the air (pun not intended, the trains aren't planes)?
A train driver recently said over the PA, I don't know if unwittingly or
with very great wit: "We are now completing our approach into Cambridge
Station"
--
Roland Perry
Basil Jet
2017-10-09 19:19:56 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Someone Somewhere
Do we know what the fare levels to Heathrow will be yet, or is that
still up in the air (pun not intended, the trains aren't planes)?
A train driver recently said over the PA, I don't know if unwittingly or
with very great wit: "We are now completing our approach into Cambridge
Station"
Why was this witty? Was it in Camberley?
Roland Perry
2017-10-10 09:05:26 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Someone Somewhere
Do we know what the fare levels to Heathrow will be yet, or is that
still up in the air (pun not intended, the trains aren't planes)?
A train driver recently said over the PA, I don't know if
unwittingly or with very great wit: "We are now completing our
approach into Cambridge Station"
Why was this witty?
There's anecdata about guards making announcements pretending to be on a
plane "Welcome aboard, today we'll be cruising at zero feet above the
rails..."
Post by Basil Jet
Was it in Camberley?
Last time I looked, Cambridge wasn't in Camberley.
--
Roland Perry
Basil Jet
2017-10-10 10:32:59 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Someone Somewhere
Do we know what the fare levels to Heathrow will be yet, or is that
still up in the air (pun not intended, the trains aren't planes)?
 A train driver recently said over the PA, I don't know if
unwittingly or  with very great wit: "We are now completing our
approach into Cambridge  Station"
Why was this witty?
There's anecdata about guards making announcements pretending to be on a
plane "Welcome aboard, today we'll be cruising at zero feet above the
rails..."
Post by Basil Jet
Was it in Camberley?
Last time I looked, Cambridge wasn't in Camberley.
Camberley used to be called Cambridge Town.
Clive D.W. Feather
2017-10-23 23:13:44 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
There's anecdata about guards making announcements pretending to be on a
plane "Welcome aboard, today we'll be cruising at zero feet above the
rails..."
I've certainly experienced something similar on an HST out of
Paddington. From memory (it was 30 years ago), it was "our cruising
altitude will be five feet".
--
Clive D.W. Feather
Richard
2017-10-24 18:41:20 UTC
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On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 00:13:44 +0100, "Clive D.W. Feather"
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Post by Roland Perry
There's anecdata about guards making announcements pretending to be on a
plane "Welcome aboard, today we'll be cruising at zero feet above the
rails..."
I've certainly experienced something similar on an HST out of
Paddington. From memory (it was 30 years ago), it was "our cruising
altitude will be five feet".
My experience was on an Amsterdam tram. It seems that anyone with a
microphone has to do it at least once in their career!

Richard.
Paul Corfield
2017-10-10 00:07:18 UTC
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Post by Someone Somewhere
Interesting - thanks.
Do we know what the fare levels to Heathrow will be yet, or is that
still up in the air (pun not intended, the trains aren't planes)?
No idea I'm afraid. I think the only thing that is known for certain is that HEX will retain a premium fare presumably handled by HEX use only validators at Paddington as they have their own dedicated platforms there. Similar in concept to how GatEx is handled at Victoria.

I assume the residual issues with the ORR (over access charging into HAL) have been resolved or are well on the way to resolution given that issue seems to have vanished from the headlines. Obviously the "headline" issue was fixed months back but there were other smaller (unspecified) things to be settled. My guess on fares, assuming that all charges for access for Crossrail are divorced from the fare charged, is that TfL will adopt something similar to the tube Oyster fare to Heathrow. I say that solely because we do not yet know if TfL will have to amend the fares on Great Western to give a smooth taper on fares once they run beyond Zone 6 in late 2019. This is not dissimilar to West Anglia and the Shenfield line having a different fares tariff from the rest of the Overground network.
--
Paul C
via Google
Someone Somewhere
2017-10-10 06:59:05 UTC
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Post by Paul Corfield
Post by Someone Somewhere
Do we know what the fare levels to Heathrow will be yet, or is that
still up in the air (pun not intended, the trains aren't planes)?
No idea I'm afraid. I think the only thing that is known for certain is that HEX will retain a premium fare presumably handled by HEX use only validators at Paddington as they have their own dedicated platforms there. Similar in concept to how GatEx is handled at Victoria.
My guess on fares, assuming that all charges for access for Crossrail are divorced from the fare charged, is that TfL will adopt something similar to the tube Oyster fare to Heathrow. I say that solely because we do not yet know if TfL will have to amend the fares on Great Western to give a smooth taper on fares once they run beyond Zone 6 in late 2019. This is not dissimilar to West Anglia and the Shenfield line having a different fares tariff from the rest of the Overground network.
Thanks Paul - let's see if you're right when they finally get around to
publishing them!
Roland Perry
2017-10-09 12:45:26 UTC
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Post by Paul Corfield
Oyster and Contactless ticketing to Heathrow via HEX and Crossrail
should be introduced next May according to the paper.
And SEFT-style ITSO?
--
Roland Perry
Paul Corfield
2017-10-24 11:33:09 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
Oyster and Contactless ticketing to Heathrow via HEX and Crossrail
should be introduced next May according to the paper.
And SEFT-style ITSO?
Not that I am aware of. If HEX had wanted smartcards it would have introduced them by now as it's a simple self contained operation. I expect it is far keener to get TfL's contactless card system installed off the back of Oyster acceptance. Being able to use bank cards will likely appeal to a large proportion of their regular users. No ticket purchase and no queues will appeal to business travellers. Only those making use of discounted HEX advance tickets will be disadvantaged.
--
Paul C
via Google
Roland Perry
2017-10-24 13:59:35 UTC
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Post by Paul Corfield
If HEX had wanted smartcards it would have introduced them by now as
it's a simple self contained operation. I expect it is far keener to
get TfL's contactless card system installed off the back of Oyster
acceptance. Being able to use bank cards will likely appeal to a large
proportion of their regular users.
I wonder how many foreign-issued bank cards will work with the
contactless system?
Post by Paul Corfield
No ticket purchase and no queues will appeal to business travellers.
As a much travelled businessman (in general terms) I can assure you that
the lack of a paper receipt/ticket to attach to my expenses claim is a
huge disadvantage.
--
Roland Perry
Clank
2017-10-24 16:07:00 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
If HEX had wanted smartcards it would have introduced them by now as
it's a simple self contained operation. I expect it is far keener to
get TfL's contactless card system installed off the back of Oyster
acceptance. Being able to use bank cards will likely appeal to a large
proportion of their regular users.
I wonder how many foreign-issued bank cards will work with the
contactless system?
If anything the UK is backward compared to the rest of the world on
contactless acceptance, and since the technology is standardised by EMV
(https://www.emvco.com/emv-technologies/contactless/) worldwide, the answer
is going to be "as close to 100% as makes no odds." Much as large parts of
the world jumped straight into mobile internet without a fixed line step in
the middle, much of the world doesn't need to support ancient ICL tills and
went straight to always-connected card terminals which easily support
things like contactless. Here in the East we use contactless with no
transaction limit even on debit cards with zero floor limit (easy and safe
because all authentication is online all the time.) And my Eastern
European zero-floor Romanian Lei denominated card has been accepted
anywhere I tried it, from Thailand to Taiwan and everywhere in between, and
from Ukraine to UK and everywhere in between (and quite a few not) as well
- including, yes, on the tube. (And indeed, relevantly, on the Gatwick
Express.)
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
No ticket purchase and no queues will appeal to business travellers.
As a much travelled businessman (in general terms) I can assure you that
the lack of a paper receipt/ticket to attach to my expenses claim is a
huge disadvantage.
Other systems solve this problem easily, as you've been told before. NS's
system for Chipkaart produces a very nice online expenses claim receipt
(which is specifically valid for Dutch tax purposes in the case of
nominal/registered cards,) which is far more convenient than toting around
bits of paper - the same can be done for contractless cards. I see no
reason why a printout from the TfL website would be unacceptable for exes
purposes (or indeed for companies not in the dark ages, a screenshot or web
clip or PDF - I can't remember the last time I actually needed to submit a
physical piece of paper...)
Clank
2017-10-24 16:11:03 UTC
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Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
If HEX had wanted smartcards it would have introduced them by now as
it's a simple self contained operation. I expect it is far keener to
get TfL's contactless card system installed off the back of Oyster
acceptance. Being able to use bank cards will likely appeal to a large
proportion of their regular users.
I wonder how many foreign-issued bank cards will work with the
contactless system?
If anything the UK is backward compared to the rest of the world on
contactless acceptance, and since the technology is standardised by EMV
(https://www.emvco.com/emv-technologies/contactless/) worldwide, the answer
is going to be "as close to 100% as makes no odds." Much as large parts of
the world jumped straight into mobile internet without a fixed line step in
the middle, much of the world doesn't need to support ancient ICL tills and
went straight to always-connected card terminals which easily support
things like contactless. Here in the East we use contactless with no
transaction limit even on debit cards with zero floor limit (easy and safe
because all authentication is online all the time.) And my Eastern
European zero-floor Romanian Lei denominated card has been accepted
anywhere I tried it, from Thailand to Taiwan and everywhere in between, and
from Ukraine to UK and everywhere in between (and quite a few not) as well
- including, yes, on the tube. (And indeed, relevantly, on the Gatwick
Express.)
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
No ticket purchase and no queues will appeal to business travellers.
As a much travelled businessman (in general terms) I can assure you that
the lack of a paper receipt/ticket to attach to my expenses claim is a
huge disadvantage.
Other systems solve this problem easily, as you've been told before. NS's
system for Chipkaart produces a very nice online expenses claim receipt
(which is specifically valid for Dutch tax purposes in the case of
nominal/registered cards,) which is far more convenient than toting around
bits of paper - the same can be done for contractless
Contactless even. Goddamn, doesn't matter how many times I proofread
there's always something I only spot *after* pressing Send...
Roland Perry
2017-10-24 20:03:51 UTC
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Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
If HEX had wanted smartcards it would have introduced them by now as
it's a simple self contained operation. I expect it is far keener to
get TfL's contactless card system installed off the back of Oyster
acceptance. Being able to use bank cards will likely appeal to a
large proportion of their regular users.
I wonder how many foreign-issued bank cards will work with the
contactless system?
If anything the UK is backward compared to the rest of the world on
contactless acceptance,
I was more concerned about contactless issuing, and the risks of
accepting foreign cards whose creditworthiness status can't be
determined in real time.
Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
No ticket purchase and no queues will appeal to business travellers.
As a much travelled businessman (in general terms) I can assure you
that the lack of a paper receipt/ticket to attach to my expenses claim
is a huge disadvantage.
Other systems solve this problem easily, as you've been told before. NS's
system for Chipkaart produces a very nice online expenses claim receipt
(which is specifically valid for Dutch tax purposes in the case of
nominal/registered cards,) which is far more convenient than toting around
bits of paper - the same can be done for contractless cards.
No doubt I'd have to set up accounts [remember to, and have time to] for
every balkanised transport operator I used on a trip.
Post by Clank
I see no reason why a printout from the TfL website would be
unacceptable for exes purposes
That's one of the Balkanised systems one would need to register with.
--
Roland Perry
Clank
2017-10-25 06:13:44 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
If HEX had wanted smartcards it would have introduced them by now as
it's a simple self contained operation. I expect it is far keener to
get TfL's contactless card system installed off the back of Oyster
acceptance. Being able to use bank cards will likely appeal to a
large proportion of their regular users.
I wonder how many foreign-issued bank cards will work with the
contactless system?
If anything the UK is backward compared to the rest of the world on
contactless acceptance,
I was more concerned about contactless issuing, and the risks of
accepting foreign cards whose creditworthiness status can't be
determined in real time.
Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
No ticket purchase and no queues will appeal to business travellers.
As a much travelled businessman (in general terms) I can assure you
that the lack of a paper receipt/ticket to attach to my expenses claim
is a huge disadvantage.
Other systems solve this problem easily, as you've been told before. NS's
system for Chipkaart produces a very nice online expenses claim receipt
(which is specifically valid for Dutch tax purposes in the case of
nominal/registered cards,) which is far more convenient than toting around
bits of paper - the same can be done for contractless cards.
No doubt I'd have to set up accounts [remember to, and have time to] for
every balkanised transport operator I used on a trip.
Post by Clank
I see no reason why a printout from the TfL website would be
unacceptable for exes purposes
That's one of the Balkanised systems one would need to register with.
You really use that word far too often, and completely inappropriately*.

To the best of my knowledge there has never been a UN World Transit Operator
that was once responsible for all the planet's metro systems but has sadly
fragmented into warring factions.

Please find another word to describe "it's inexplicable to me that the trams
in Istanbul are not run by the same company as the buses in Belgrade".


(Personally I find it not remotely frustrating - possibly partly because I'm
not so tight I try to put every 50 euro cent bus journey on expenses - and
indeed collecting transit cards from around the world is something of a
guilty pleasure of mine. Favourite for imperious imagery is Troika... I
do have a soft spot for my recently acquired JoJo though, mainly for the
irrepressible urge to say "Mojo-jojoooooooo" whenever using it. I'll be
rather sad when they're all replaced by EMV contactless.)




* There *is* an appropriate use in this context, and it's the situation here
in Bucharest where we used to have a single smartcard (ActivCard) for all
transport, but after a row over the surface transport operator (RATB) not
paying its bills to the underground operator (Metrorex) the latter started
refusing to accept the former's tickets. Rumours of a resumption of
relations are always in the air but never seem to come to fruition.
Meanwhile the world has moved on and Metrorex now accepts EMV contactless
at all stations so it'll be somewhat moot by the time they do.
Roland Perry
2017-10-25 06:58:40 UTC
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Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
If HEX had wanted smartcards it would have introduced them by now
as it's a simple self contained operation. I expect it is far
keener to get TfL's contactless card system installed off the back
of Oyster acceptance. Being able to use bank cards will likely
appeal to a large proportion of their regular users.
I wonder how many foreign-issued bank cards will work with the
contactless system?
If anything the UK is backward compared to the rest of the world on
contactless acceptance,
I was more concerned about contactless issuing, and the risks of
accepting foreign cards whose creditworthiness status can't be
determined in real time.
Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
No ticket purchase and no queues will appeal to business travellers.
As a much travelled businessman (in general terms) I can assure you
that the lack of a paper receipt/ticket to attach to my expenses
claim is a huge disadvantage.
Other systems solve this problem easily, as you've been told before. NS's
system for Chipkaart produces a very nice online expenses claim receipt
(which is specifically valid for Dutch tax purposes in the case of
nominal/registered cards,) which is far more convenient than toting around
bits of paper - the same can be done for contractless cards.
No doubt I'd have to set up accounts [remember to, and have time to]
for every balkanised transport operator I used on a trip.
Post by Clank
I see no reason why a printout from the TfL website would be
unacceptable for exes purposes
That's one of the Balkanised systems one would need to register with.
You really use that word far too often, and completely inappropriately*.
To the best of my knowledge there has never been a UN World Transit Operator
that was once responsible for all the planet's metro systems but has sadly
fragmented into warring factions.
It's the payment methods which are Balkanised - currently in London (if
you ignore outboundary Travelcards bought with C&P) a war between cash,
Contactless Bank Cards, Oyster, and ITSO[1].

Even without the latter two, I have several Contactless Bank Cards, and
even TfL is minded to remind us to use the same one when touching out as
touching in. And then, when I'm trying to tot up the expenditure, I've
have to remember which card statements to rummage through for the data.

[1] Where I would need two different ones depending of whether I
travelled Via Liverpool St or Kings Cross.
Post by Clank
(Personally I find it not remotely frustrating - possibly partly because I'm
not so tight I try to put every 50 euro cent bus journey on expenses
Nor do I. Once I had a policy of ignoring all travel costs to clients in
London, but that was when I lived inside the M25, and my daily rate in
that industry was far higher than my current one in a different
industry.

Nowadays, the fare from where I live near Cambridge to a client in
London can easily be £50 in the peak.
Post by Clank
- and indeed collecting transit cards from around the world is
something of a guilty pleasure of mine.
I just collect UK ones at the moment. Currently have 12 in my wallet, if
you include the Senior Railcard.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-10-25 09:30:01 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
It's the payment methods which are Balkanised - currently in London
(if you ignore outboundary Travelcards bought with C&P) a war between
cash, Contactless Bank Cards, Oyster, and ITSO[1].
Even without the latter two, I have several Contactless Bank Cards,
and even TfL is minded to remind us to use the same one when touching
out as touching in. And then, when I'm trying to tot up the
expenditure, I've have to remember which card statements to rummage
through for the data.
[1] Where I would need two different ones depending of whether I
travelled Via Liverpool St or Kings Cross.
You can use a GN "The Key" card from Ely to King's Cross? I don't think so.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2017-10-25 10:10:24 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
It's the payment methods which are Balkanised - currently in London
(if you ignore outboundary Travelcards bought with C&P) a war between
cash, Contactless Bank Cards, Oyster, and ITSO[1].
Even without the latter two, I have several Contactless Bank Cards,
and even TfL is minded to remind us to use the same one when touching
out as touching in. And then, when I'm trying to tot up the
expenditure, I've have to remember which card statements to rummage
through for the data.
[1] Where I would need two different ones depending of whether I
travelled Via Liverpool St or Kings Cross.
You can use a GN "The Key" card from Ely to King's Cross? I don't think so.
That's yet another failure in their implementation. But I could split
tickets, with a Travelcard season from say Royston held on a Southern
ITSO.

(GN won't let me have one of The theirs, because I've been signed up for
years with a Southern The Key. I suppose I could get the GN The Key if
used a The different The email address).
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2017-10-25 11:43:36 UTC
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Post by Clank
Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
If HEX had wanted smartcards it would have introduced them by now as
it's a simple self contained operation. I expect it is far keener to
get TfL's contactless card system installed off the back of Oyster
acceptance. Being able to use bank cards will likely appeal to a large
proportion of their regular users.
I wonder how many foreign-issued bank cards will work with the
contactless system?
If anything the UK is backward compared to the rest of the world on
contactless acceptance,
I was more concerned about contactless issuing, and the risks of accepting
foreign cards whose creditworthiness status can't be determined in real
time.
Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
No ticket purchase and no queues will appeal to business travellers.
As a much travelled businessman (in general terms) I can assure you that
the lack of a paper receipt/ticket to attach to my expenses claim is a
huge disadvantage.
Other systems solve this problem easily, as you've been told before.
NS's
system for Chipkaart produces a very nice online expenses claim receipt
(which is specifically valid for Dutch tax purposes in the case of
nominal/registered cards,) which is far more convenient than toting around
bits of paper - the same can be done for contractless cards.
No doubt I'd have to set up accounts [remember to, and have time to] for
every balkanised transport operator I used on a trip.
Post by Clank
I see no reason why a printout from the TfL website would be unacceptable
for exes purposes
That's one of the Balkanised systems one would need to register with.
You really use that word far too often, and completely inappropriately*.
To the best of my knowledge there has never been a UN World Transit Operator
that was once responsible for all the planet's metro systems but has sadly
fragmented into warring factions.
I don't think the complaint was used internationally, but nationally

there is no obvious reason why a Stagecoach smart card shouldn't work in
every area Stagecoach have a presence.,

but they don't

FTAOD The complaint isn't that having bought a Cambridge Area Pass you
cannot use it on the bus in Sussex

It's that having acquired the Cambridge smart card, you cannot load onto it
a Sussex area pass.

tim
Clank
2017-10-25 15:44:33 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Clank
Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
If HEX had wanted smartcards it would have introduced them by now as
it's a simple self contained operation. I expect it is far keener to
get TfL's contactless card system installed off the back of Oyster
acceptance. Being able to use bank cards will likely appeal to a large
proportion of their regular users.
I wonder how many foreign-issued bank cards will work with the
contactless system?
If anything the UK is backward compared to the rest of the world on
contactless acceptance,
I was more concerned about contactless issuing, and the risks of accepting
foreign cards whose creditworthiness status can't be determined in real
time.
Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
No ticket purchase and no queues will appeal to business travellers.
As a much travelled businessman (in general terms) I can assure you that
the lack of a paper receipt/ticket to attach to my expenses claim is a
huge disadvantage.
Other systems solve this problem easily, as you've been told before.
NS's
system for Chipkaart produces a very nice online expenses claim receipt
(which is specifically valid for Dutch tax purposes in the case of
nominal/registered cards,) which is far more convenient than toting around
bits of paper - the same can be done for contractless cards.
No doubt I'd have to set up accounts [remember to, and have time to] for
every balkanised transport operator I used on a trip.
Post by Clank
I see no reason why a printout from the TfL website would be unacceptable
for exes purposes
That's one of the Balkanised systems one would need to register with.
You really use that word far too often, and completely inappropriately*.
To the best of my knowledge there has never been a UN World Transit Operator
that was once responsible for all the planet's metro systems but has sadly
fragmented into warring factions.
I don't think the complaint was used internationally, but nationally
there is no obvious reason why a Stagecoach smart card shouldn't work in
every area Stagecoach have a presence.,
but they don't
FTAOD The complaint isn't that having bought a Cambridge Area Pass you
cannot use it on the bus in Sussex
It's that having acquired the Cambridge smart card, you cannot load onto it
a Sussex area pass.
That's a complaint, and a valid one at that, although no worse than the
status quo (if I have a two different paper tickets or passes they don't
get printed on one card,) so again not balkanisation.

But if that was Roland's complaint, he would of course welcome EMV
contactless ticketing which solves the problem at a stroke. But as he
notes above he considers this a huge step back and a case of
"balkanisation" because he'd need to log into a different website for his
NS exes receipts to the one for his TfL expenses receipts. (He may be a
goatherder, but he is one with terribly first world problems.)

He also considers every new product released which he doesn't want to use
evidence of "balkanisation". (E.g. mobile tickets.) Among many other
misuses of his Word of 2017.
Roland Perry
2017-10-26 06:55:49 UTC
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Post by Clank
Post by tim...
Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
That's one of the Balkanised systems one would need to register with.
You really use that word far too often, and completely inappropriately*.
To the best of my knowledge there has never been a UN World Transit
Operator that was once responsible for all the planet's metro
systems but has sadly fragmented into warring factions.
I don't think the complaint was used internationally, but nationally
there is no obvious reason why a Stagecoach smart card shouldn't work
in every area Stagecoach have a presence.,
but they don't
FTAOD The complaint isn't that having bought a Cambridge Area Pass you
cannot use it on the bus in Sussex
It's that having acquired the Cambridge smart card, you cannot load
onto it a Sussex area pass.
I have two Stagecoach ITSO cards, one for EMT and anther for Cambus.
They are not interoporable. Nor would have been an SWT ITSO card had
they ever sent me one.
Post by Clank
That's a complaint, and a valid one at that, although no worse than the
status quo (if I have a two different paper tickets or passes they don't
get printed on one card,) so again not balkanisation.
But a paper season ticket from Cambridge to Basingstoke would work as
one bit of paper, you can't load such a thing onto one ITSO card.
Post by Clank
But if that was Roland's complaint, he would of course welcome EMV
contactless ticketing which solves the problem at a stroke. But as he
notes above he considers this a huge step back and a case of
"balkanisation" because he'd need to log into a different website for his
NS exes receipts to the one for his TfL expenses receipts. (He may be a
goatherder, but he is one with terribly first world problems.)
The problem is caused precisely by the division of the evidence (I
almost wrote paper-trail) between different backoffices.

The other issue is that for example, if I look at my Card statement this
week there's an entry for:

25/10/17 GREATER ANGLIA T/O PURCHASE £13.30

It doesn't tell me *which* ticket office, what product (or how many
people travelling), where the end points were, or even in this case the
correct date of either purchase or travel [in this case both on Monday
23rd].
Post by Clank
He also considers every new product released which he doesn't want to use
evidence of "balkanisation". (E.g. mobile tickets.) Among many other
misuses of his Word of 2017.
As they are a further fragmentation of the ticketing system (I need to
use the correct booking site, and an associated new user account, to buy
them, rather than "any booking site") it's a perfectly correct use of
the word.
--
Roland Perry
D A Stocks
2017-10-27 17:55:20 UTC
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Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
As a much travelled businessman (in general terms) I can assure you that
the lack of a paper receipt/ticket to attach to my expenses claim is a
huge disadvantage.
Other systems solve this problem easily, as you've been told before. NS's
system for Chipkaart produces a very nice online expenses claim receipt
(which is specifically valid for Dutch tax purposes in the case of
nominal/registered cards,) which is far more convenient than toting around
bits of paper - the same can be done for contactless cards.
I understand you can register your favourite card with TfL for this very
purpose, but I haven't had to claim for travel in London yet. Since I live
outside London I would probably buy a paper ticket and claim against that.

For NS I just claim for the top-up - I'm liable for Dutch tax, but it's all
handled by my employer via a UK/Dutch tax equalisation process that doesn't
seem to take account of expenses. So I topped up my Chipkaart with around
EUR 120 yesterday morning, scanned the (paper) receipt into the expenses
system this morning, and it was approved this afternoon - this is (mostly)
for journys I havn't made yet. If I forget to get a receipt I can evidence
the purchase via the Chipkaart website, but I still claim against the top-up
purchase rather than individual journeys.

--
DAS
Roland Perry
2017-10-27 19:30:49 UTC
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Post by D A Stocks
Post by Clank
Post by Roland Perry
As a much travelled businessman (in general terms) I can assure you
that the lack of a paper receipt/ticket to attach to my expenses
claim is a huge disadvantage.
Other systems solve this problem easily, as you've been told before. NS's
system for Chipkaart produces a very nice online expenses claim receipt
(which is specifically valid for Dutch tax purposes in the case of
nominal/registered cards,) which is far more convenient than toting around
bits of paper - the same can be done for contactless cards.
I understand you can register your favourite card with TfL for this
very purpose, but I haven't had to claim for travel in London yet.
Since I live outside London I would probably buy a paper ticket and
claim against that.
For NS I just claim for the top-up - I'm liable for Dutch tax, but it's
all handled by my employer via a UK/Dutch tax equalisation process that
doesn't seem to take account of expenses.
See my comments about "dispensations". Having had a Dutch client they
clearly have the same scheme, all the way down to duplicating their tax
office's maximum allowable expenses in various territories as the
client's own allowances.
Post by D A Stocks
So I topped up my Chipkaart with around EUR 120 yesterday morning,
scanned the (paper) receipt into the expenses system this morning, and
it was approved this afternoon - this is (mostly) for journys I havn't
made yet. If I forget to get a receipt I can evidence the purchase via
the Chipkaart website, but I still claim against the top-up purchase
rather than individual journeys.
--
Roland Perry
John Levine
2017-10-24 16:40:35 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Paul Corfield
acceptance. Being able to use bank cards will likely appeal to a large
proportion of their regular users.
I wonder how many foreign-issued bank cards will work with the
contactless system?
FWIW, my US issued cards work fine as Oyster cards.

R's,
John

PS: Well, give or take that when I have a senior railcard I
can only apply it to an actual Oyster card.
Arthur Conan Doyle
2017-10-26 03:27:54 UTC
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Post by John Levine
FWIW, my US issued cards work fine as Oyster cards.
I can use my US issued Visa card to top up my Oyster card at an Oyster terminal
in the station, and I can enter it as a payment card on my Oyster account web
page, but when I attempt to actually top up my Oyster card, the transaction
fails. It also failed last week when I attempted to use the same card through
Android Pay on my phone.

Interestingly enough, when I tried my Amex card, I actually got an alert from
AMex stating that they had processed the transaction, but it never actually
completed on the Oyster end and failed the same way.
Roland Perry
2017-10-26 06:57:05 UTC
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Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by John Levine
FWIW, my US issued cards work fine as Oyster cards.
I can use my US issued Visa card to top up my Oyster card at an Oyster terminal
in the station, and I can enter it as a payment card on my Oyster account web
page, but when I attempt to actually top up my Oyster card, the transaction
fails. It also failed last week when I attempted to use the same card through
Android Pay on my phone.
Interestingly enough, when I tried my Amex card, I actually got an alert from
AMex stating that they had processed the transaction, but it never actually
completed on the Oyster end and failed the same way.
Do any of those combinations work on the *gates* as an Oyster
substitute?
--
Roland Perry
Arthur Conan Doyle
2017-10-26 12:33:13 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Do any of those combinations work on the *gates* as an Oyster
substitute?
Unfortunately they aren't RFID cards, so no.
Roland Perry
2017-10-26 12:46:58 UTC
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Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Roland Perry
Do any of those combinations work on the *gates* as an Oyster
substitute?
Unfortunately they aren't RFID cards, so no.
That confirms one of my suspicions - not as many foreign issued
contactless bank cards as people assume.

But surely the Android-Pay *emulates* a contactless card.
--
Roland Perry
Arthur Conan Doyle
2017-10-26 18:25:40 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
But surely the Android-Pay *emulates* a contactless card.
Yes - and that's why I had hopes that the gates would recognize it. In fact, I
had no problems using Android Pay at any number of London retail locations.
Clank
2017-10-26 17:00:25 UTC
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Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by John Levine
FWIW, my US issued cards work fine as Oyster cards.
I can use my US issued Visa card to top up my Oyster card at an Oyster terminal
in the station, and I can enter it as a payment card on my Oyster account web
page, but when I attempt to actually top up my Oyster card, the transaction
fails. It also failed last week when I attempted to use the same card through
Android Pay on my phone.
Interestingly enough, when I tried my Amex card, I actually got an alert from
AMex stating that they had processed the transaction, but it never actually
completed on the Oyster end and failed the same way.
I use my Amex for contactless on TfL whenever I'm in London. Works fine.

They sent an alert to say they processed the transaction? That's unusual.
I occasionally get an alert to say they didn't process a transaction, but
if I reply to confirm it was indeed intended you can retry. In fact, since
it happened to me only last week I can paste the exact messages:

"Amex Fraud Alert: Did you just attempt a charge for 25.88 USD on Card
ending XXXXX at YYYYYYYYYYYYYY? Reply 1 if Yes, 2 to speak to Amex'"

"Thank you. Please re-attempt the charge now. The security concern is now
resolved and your Card is available for use."


If they alerted me every time they processed a transaction that would be
jolly irritating....
Arthur Conan Doyle
2017-10-26 18:27:32 UTC
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Post by Clank
If they alerted me every time they processed a transaction that would be
jolly irritating....
This wasn't a fraud alert - I had my account set to alert on international
transactions. Unfortunately, my Amex isn't an RFID card.
Offramp
2017-10-27 06:00:26 UTC
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Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Clank
If they alerted me every time they processed a transaction that would be
jolly irritating....
This wasn't a fraud alert - I had my account set to alert on international
transactions. Unfortunately, my Amex isn't an RFID card.
Another mystery solved.
Roland Perry
2017-10-27 06:06:45 UTC
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Post by Offramp
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Clank
If they alerted me every time they processed a transaction that would be
jolly irritating....
This wasn't a fraud alert - I had my account set to alert on international
transactions. Unfortunately, my Amex isn't an RFID card.
Another mystery solved.
No shit, Sherlock :)
--
Roland Perry
Neil Williams
2017-10-27 10:14:27 UTC
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Post by Clank
If they alerted me every time they processed a transaction that would be
jolly irritating....
Some of the new-breed mobile-only banks like Monzo do. I don't find it
that annoying, it's just a buzz in your pocket from the app
notification each time you spend. You don't have to delete it or
anything, just ignore it.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
Roland Perry
2017-10-27 11:04:11 UTC
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Post by Neil Williams
Post by Clank
If they alerted me every time they processed a transaction that would be
jolly irritating....
Some of the new-breed mobile-only banks like Monzo do. I don't find it
that annoying, it's just a buzz in your pocket from the app
notification each time you spend.
<goat-herder>

Only if in coverage, which metrosexuals often overestimate.

SWMBO has just returned from Sainsbury's cursing at them because there's
no mobile coverage inside (What's App would have been handy to get some
input into buying decisions, apparently).

</goat-herder>
Post by Neil Williams
You don't have to delete it or anything, just ignore it.
Is it an SMS? My <g-h> candy-bar </g-h> phone has a limited storage
capacity for them, after which I think they get queued up. It's around
half a dozen keystrokes to delete each one, <sigh>.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-10-27 14:57:25 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Clank
If they alerted me every time they processed a transaction that would be
jolly irritating....
Some of the new-breed mobile-only banks like Monzo do. I don't find it
that annoying, it's just a buzz in your pocket from the app
notification each time you spend.
<goat-herder>
Only if in coverage, which metrosexuals often overestimate.
SWMBO has just returned from Sainsbury's cursing at them because there's
no mobile coverage inside (What's App would have been handy to get some
input into buying decisions, apparently).
</goat-herder>
No free WiFi in the store?
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Neil Williams
You don't have to delete it or anything, just ignore it.
Is it an SMS? My <g-h> candy-bar </g-h> phone has a limited storage
capacity for them, after which I think they get queued up. It's around
half a dozen keystrokes to delete each one, <sigh>.
Roland Perry
2017-10-27 19:12:52 UTC
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In message
<1169535073.530808970.867316.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-sept
ember.org>, at 14:57:25 on Fri, 27 Oct 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
SWMBO has just returned from Sainsbury's cursing at them because there's
no mobile coverage inside (What's App would have been handy to get some
input into buying decisions, apparently).
</goat-herder>
No free WiFi in the store?
Not their own, and none of the major third party not-free (unless you
have some collateral accreditation), according to the several
wifi-finder apps on my phone.
--
Roland Perry
Clive D.W. Feather
2017-10-27 19:34:16 UTC
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In article <ost4b9$3qo$***@dont-email.me>, Clank <***@googlemail.com>
writes
Post by Clank
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Interestingly enough, when I tried my Amex card, I actually got an alert from
AMex stating that they had processed the transaction, but it never actually
completed on the Oyster end and failed the same way.
They sent an alert to say they processed the transaction? That's unusual.
Not Amex, but the issuer of my work-provided credit card sends me an SMS
and an email every time I use it.
--
Clive D.W. Feather
Neil Williams
2017-10-24 17:46:19 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
As a much travelled businessman (in general terms) I can assure you
that the lack of a paper receipt/ticket to attach to my expenses claim
is a huge disadvantage.
Mine are done via Concur/ExpenseIt. I haven't done anything with
physical receipts (other than to chuck in a box just in case) for
years. Your clients are right Luddites.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
Roland Perry
2017-10-24 20:08:21 UTC
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Post by Neil Williams
Post by Roland Perry
As a much travelled businessman (in general terms) I can assure you
that the lack of a paper receipt/ticket to attach to my expenses claim
is a huge disadvantage.
Mine are done via Concur/ExpenseIt. I haven't done anything with
physical receipts (other than to chuck in a box just in case) for
years. Your clients are right Luddites.
Looking at their website it's a huge faff for the user. I'd much rather
chuck the receipts for a multi-country, multi-transport trip into a box,
and sort it out when I get home.
--
Roland Perry
Richard
2017-10-24 18:46:48 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
I wonder how many foreign-issued bank cards will work with the
contactless system?
We're told most - remember that there is no trouble with PINs and
perhaps no floor limit is applicable as there is no charge at the time
- certainly the cards I have seen used had no problems. My
contactless experience is varied, always worked in Belgium, seemed not
to work in Spain, but that was perhaps over the limit... and other
countries are only just coming round to the idea.
Post by Roland Perry
As a much travelled businessman (in general terms) I can assure you that
the lack of a paper receipt/ticket to attach to my expenses claim is a
huge disadvantage.
Like Neil, mine are on-line. I would have thought that was normal
these days for employees - you may have other experiences. Very easy
(at least compared to any other HR package, but that's not saying
much).

Richard.
Roland Perry
2017-10-24 20:11:19 UTC
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Post by Richard
Post by Roland Perry
As a much travelled businessman (in general terms) I can assure you that
the lack of a paper receipt/ticket to attach to my expenses claim is a
huge disadvantage.
Like Neil, mine are on-line.
How do you get the dozens of transport operators you only use once a
year to push the receipts to this online system? And no, I'm not going
to set up accounts with Obscuristan bus company ahead of travelling to
facilitate it.
--
Roland Perry
Richard
2017-10-25 18:35:22 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Richard
Post by Roland Perry
As a much travelled businessman (in general terms) I can assure you that
the lack of a paper receipt/ticket to attach to my expenses claim is a
huge disadvantage.
Like Neil, mine are on-line.
How do you get the dozens of transport operators you only use once a
year to push the receipts to this online system? And no, I'm not going
to set up accounts with Obscuristan bus company ahead of travelling to
facilitate it.
That's a good point, but I might not bother for small amounts, and
equally my company might not need evidence in these cases, I haven't
checked. Anything major is paid by the company, using a corporate
booking tool that finds hotels at prices more than I could get, but
oddly finds cheap flights.

Richard.
Roland Perry
2017-10-26 07:08:47 UTC
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Post by Richard
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Richard
Post by Roland Perry
As a much travelled businessman (in general terms) I can assure you that
the lack of a paper receipt/ticket to attach to my expenses claim is a
huge disadvantage.
Like Neil, mine are on-line.
How do you get the dozens of transport operators you only use once a
year to push the receipts to this online system? And no, I'm not going
to set up accounts with Obscuristan bus company ahead of travelling to
facilitate it.
That's a good point, but I might not bother for small amounts, and
equally my company might not need evidence in these cases, I haven't
checked.
Big companies are different because they can negotiate what's called a
"dispensation" with HMR&C to pay up to certain[1] daily amounts in
travel and subsistence, and are allowed to self-police the receipting
process (where it helps if they have an internal published scale). This
doesn't apply to smaller companies and particularly not the self-
employed.
Post by Richard
Anything major is paid by the company, using a corporate
booking tool that finds hotels at prices more than I could get, but
oddly finds cheap flights.
That's not especially odd, and sounds like a legacy hotel booking system
which are legendarily captured by rack-rate deals with specific chains -
partly justified by saving time having to research and negotiate each
night's stay individually. Tacking on airline flights suffers (from the
tool's point of view) from the greater transparency of third party price
comparison sites, so people can see if the fares are as outrageous as
the hotel rooms often are, plus the (literally) ticket-price can be up
an order of magnitude higher, so the buyers are more alert to possible
savings.
Post by Richard
Richard.
[1] There's big table sorted by country, and sometimes with extra
entries for capital cities etc where it's accepted that prices are
higher),
--
Roland Perry
Basil Jet
2017-11-01 01:52:30 UTC
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Does anyone else think it's surprising that Crossrail has yet to appear
as a dotted line on the Tube map or the London Railways map? Or the TfL
Rail map, for that matter. The Jubilee Line Extension was dotted for 5
years or more, but Paddington to Abbey Wood is only 14 months or so from
opening. In fact, the Northern Line Extension to Battersea should be on
the tube map by now as well, in order to drum up business for the new
stations opening in 2020.
Recliner
2017-11-01 03:15:37 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Does anyone else think it's surprising that Crossrail has yet to appear
as a dotted line on the Tube map or the London Railways map? Or the TfL
Rail map, for that matter.
Given all the other lines running through central London, and the fact that
all the outer sections are on, or alongside, existing routes, it may be too
confusing to show it before or opens.
Post by Basil Jet
The Jubilee Line Extension was dotted for 5
years or more, but Paddington to Abbey Wood is only 14 months or so from
opening. In fact, the Northern Line Extension to Battersea should be on
the tube map by now as well, in order to drum up business for the new
stations opening in 2020.
Most of the potential future users of fhe Battersea extension don't yet
live or work there, as the flats and offices are still just a huge building
site. Potential future users of the extension already know it's coming.
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