Discussion:
Northern Line Battersea extension
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Basil Jet
2017-09-27 07:01:45 UTC
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The tunnels have TWICE the cross section area of existing tube tunnels,
to allow a walkway!

It looks like the public can get into a raised viewing platform over the
Battersea Power Station Station.
Offramp
2017-09-27 07:14:09 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
http://youtu.be/j6RWMaAtTOY
The tunnels have TWICE the cross section area of existing tube tunnels,
to allow a walkway!
Great idea! Walking along tracks is bloody awful. If there is an evac then a walkway will speed things up enormously. Same with getting mechanics to problem scenes.
Post by Basil Jet
It looks like the public can get into a raised viewing platform over the
Battersea Power Station Station.
He mentioned a possible future extension to Clapham Jct!
Recliner
2017-09-27 09:44:33 UTC
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Post by Offramp
Post by Basil Jet
http://youtu.be/j6RWMaAtTOY
The tunnels have TWICE the cross section area of existing tube tunnels,
to allow a walkway!
Great idea! Walking along tracks is bloody awful. If there is an evac
then a walkway will speed things up enormously. Same with getting
mechanics to problem scenes.
Post by Basil Jet
It looks like the public can get into a raised viewing platform over the
Battersea Power Station Station.
He mentioned a possible future extension to Clapham Jct!
I think there was always going to be passive provision for such an
extension, simply by having the terminus tunnels point the right way, but
with no current plan (or funding) to go any further.
b***@cylonHQ.com
2017-09-27 10:14:49 UTC
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On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 09:44:33 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Offramp
Post by Basil Jet
http://youtu.be/j6RWMaAtTOY
The tunnels have TWICE the cross section area of existing tube tunnels,
to allow a walkway!
Great idea! Walking along tracks is bloody awful. If there is an evac
then a walkway will speed things up enormously. Same with getting
mechanics to problem scenes.
Post by Basil Jet
It looks like the public can get into a raised viewing platform over the
Battersea Power Station Station.
He mentioned a possible future extension to Clapham Jct!
I think there was always going to be passive provision for such an
extension, simply by having the terminus tunnels point the right way, but
with no current plan (or funding) to go any further.
Can't see it happening. There's no way the northern would cope with the
shear number of passengers who would use it from there.

While its nice to see crossrail and this extension, it would be even better if
the government would spend even a fraction of the cost of these on improving
public transport in the northern cities.
Recliner
2017-09-27 10:29:47 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 09:44:33 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Offramp
Post by Basil Jet
http://youtu.be/j6RWMaAtTOY
The tunnels have TWICE the cross section area of existing tube tunnels,
to allow a walkway!
Great idea! Walking along tracks is bloody awful. If there is an evac
then a walkway will speed things up enormously. Same with getting
mechanics to problem scenes.
Post by Basil Jet
It looks like the public can get into a raised viewing platform over the
Battersea Power Station Station.
He mentioned a possible future extension to Clapham Jct!
I think there was always going to be passive provision for such an
extension, simply by having the terminus tunnels point the right way, but
with no current plan (or funding) to go any further.
Can't see it happening. There's no way the northern would cope with the
shear number of passengers who would use it from there.
Yes, I agree.
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
While its nice to see crossrail and this extension, it would be even better if
the government would spend even a fraction of the cost of these on improving
public transport in the northern cities.
This extension was largely funded by the local property developers, not the
government. Similarly, a large part of the Crossrail 2 funding will have to
come from London itself, either from property levies or direct
contributions from property developers.
b***@cylonHQ.com
2017-09-27 10:56:30 UTC
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On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 10:29:47 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
While its nice to see crossrail and this extension, it would be even better
if
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
the government would spend even a fraction of the cost of these on improving
public transport in the northern cities.
This extension was largely funded by the local property developers, not the
government. Similarly, a large part of the Crossrail 2 funding will have to
come from London itself, either from property levies or direct
contributions from property developers.
All offset against earnings for tax reasons naturally.

Still, no reason that sort of scheme couldn't be used at least in part oop
narth. Manchester is pretty much the UKs 2nd city now economically if not
in population (sorry brum) and a bit more cash splashed that way could only be
a good thing.
Recliner
2017-09-27 11:20:07 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 10:29:47 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
While its nice to see crossrail and this extension, it would be even better
if
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
the government would spend even a fraction of the cost of these on improving
public transport in the northern cities.
This extension was largely funded by the local property developers, not the
government. Similarly, a large part of the Crossrail 2 funding will have to
come from London itself, either from property levies or direct
contributions from property developers.
All offset against earnings for tax reasons naturally.
Still, no reason that sort of scheme couldn't be used at least in part oop
narth. Manchester is pretty much the UKs 2nd city now economically if not
in population (sorry brum) and a bit more cash splashed that way could only be
a good thing.
The Ordsall Chord is now almost complete so, at last, Piccadilly and
Victoria stations will have a direct heavy rail link.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/lnw/ordsall-chord/

And, yes, before anyone says it, it's a pity that it came at the expense of
the MoSI link to the rail network.
b***@cylonHQ.com
2017-09-27 12:55:20 UTC
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On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 11:20:07 -0000 (UTC)
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 10:29:47 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
While its nice to see crossrail and this extension, it would be even better
if
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
the government would spend even a fraction of the cost of these on
improving
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
public transport in the northern cities.
This extension was largely funded by the local property developers, not the
government. Similarly, a large part of the Crossrail 2 funding will have to
come from London itself, either from property levies or direct
contributions from property developers.
All offset against earnings for tax reasons naturally.
Still, no reason that sort of scheme couldn't be used at least in part oop
narth. Manchester is pretty much the UKs 2nd city now economically if not
in population (sorry brum) and a bit more cash splashed that way could only
be
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
a good thing.
The Ordsall Chord is now almost complete so, at last, Piccadilly and
Victoria stations will have a direct heavy rail link.
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/lnw/ordsall-chord/
And, yes, before anyone says it, it's a pity that it came at the expense of
the MoSI link to the rail network.
Heavy rail is always a good thing, but tbh Manchester and half a dozen other
cities around the UK (particularly Bristol IMO, its almost gridlock there now)
need a proper metro system, not just trams that get stuck in traffic and never
get above 20mph in the city centres. Or if thats too expensive, pre-metro type
systems that are popular in europe - tram rolling stock that has street and
rail line running in the burbs but runs in tunnel through the centre. Rouen in
France is a good example of this and London had it at Holborn.

If europe can afford it so can we, that they don't get built is purely political
not financial.
Offramp
2017-09-27 17:05:10 UTC
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It can't be too expensive to construct a really modern Wupperthal Dangelbahn around these big cities.
tim...
2017-09-27 18:46:47 UTC
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Post by Offramp
It can't be too expensive to construct a really modern Wupperthal
Dangelbahn around these big cities.
but not all of them have suitable rivers

tim
Basil Jet
2017-09-27 18:54:44 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Offramp
It can't be too expensive to construct a really modern Wupperthal
Dangelbahn around these big cities.
but not all of them have suitable rivers
Yes, you don't want to drop an elephant on the ground.
d***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-09-27 22:00:49 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by tim...
Post by Offramp
It can't be too expensive to construct a really modern Wupperthal
Dangelbahn around these big cities.
but not all of them have suitable rivers
In Brum you could put them over the canals
Post by Basil Jet
Yes, you don't want to drop an elephant on the ground.
Make a lot of the population feel at home though.

G.Harman
Someone Somewhere
2017-09-28 07:09:38 UTC
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Post by Offramp
It can't be too expensive to construct a really modern Wupperthal Dangelbahn around these big cities.
Sadly one tautology seems to be that building anything transport related
in the UK is never "can't be too expensive"
Roland Perry
2017-09-27 12:37:14 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Manchester is pretty much the UKs 2nd city now economically if not
in population (sorry brum) and a bit more cash splashed that way could only be
a good thing.
More than the cash splashed that way which currently subsidises their
trains at 35p per passenger mile?
--
Roland Perry
b***@cylonHQ.com
2017-09-27 15:50:19 UTC
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On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 13:37:14 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Manchester is pretty much the UKs 2nd city now economically if not
in population (sorry brum) and a bit more cash splashed that way could only be
a good thing.
More than the cash splashed that way which currently subsidises their
trains at 35p per passenger mile?
I don't really care tbh. The regional cities need to be opened up for busines
far more than they are and for that you need decent public transport. They
figured this out in europe decades ago but it seems to elude british
governments.
Roland Perry
2017-09-27 18:42:44 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Manchester is pretty much the UKs 2nd city now economically if not
in population (sorry brum) and a bit more cash splashed that way could only be
a good thing.
More than the cash splashed that way which currently subsidises their
trains at 35p per passenger mile?
I don't really care tbh. The regional cities need to be opened up for busines
far more than they are and for that you need decent public transport. They
figured this out in europe decades ago but it seems to elude british
governments.
Manchester has a vast railway network, but the locals either don't use
it, or won't pay for it.

Train users in London, like yourself, are paying for much of it.
--
Roland Perry
b***@cylonHQ.com
2017-09-28 08:39:16 UTC
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On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 19:42:44 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Manchester is pretty much the UKs 2nd city now economically if not
in population (sorry brum) and a bit more cash splashed that way could only
be
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
a good thing.
More than the cash splashed that way which currently subsidises their
trains at 35p per passenger mile?
I don't really care tbh. The regional cities need to be opened up for busines
far more than they are and for that you need decent public transport. They
figured this out in europe decades ago but it seems to elude british
governments.
Manchester has a vast railway network, but the locals either don't use
Vast compared to what? There are large parts of the north and south of the
city and satellite towns/suburbs that arn't anywhere near a train station.
Post by Roland Perry
it, or won't pay for it.
Train users in London, like yourself, are paying for much of it.
I pay for a lot of things in my taxes that I never use. Thats how taxation
works.
Roland Perry
2017-09-28 09:10:41 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Roland Perry
Manchester has a vast railway network
Vast compared to what? There are large parts of the north and south of the
city and satellite towns/suburbs that arn't anywhere near a train station.
Compared to other big cities outside London (other than perhaps
Birmingham and Glasgow).

This map gives a good birds eye view of the phenomenon:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/routemaps/nationa
lrailoperatorsmapZoom.pdf>
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Roland Perry
Train users in London, like yourself, are paying for much of it.
I pay for a lot of things in my taxes that I never use. Thats how taxation
works.
Londoners are paying in their fares. On latest available figures, about
9p per passenger mile on Southern and SWT (as was) being an excess
shunted off to subsidise lines like Northern (receiving 30ppm more than
the national average) and TPE.
--
Roland Perry
b***@cylonHQ.com
2017-09-28 10:15:45 UTC
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On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 10:10:41 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Roland Perry
Manchester has a vast railway network
Vast compared to what? There are large parts of the north and south of the
city and satellite towns/suburbs that arn't anywhere near a train station.
Compared to other big cities outside London (other than perhaps
Birmingham and Glasgow).
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/routemaps/nationa
lrailoperatorsmapZoom.pdf>
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Roland Perry
Train users in London, like yourself, are paying for much of it.
I pay for a lot of things in my taxes that I never use. Thats how taxation
works.
Londoners are paying in their fares. On latest available figures, about
Thats 2 seperate issues. Londoners getting screwed on fares doesn't mean that
the northern cities shouldn't have decent public transport infrastructure.
Roland Perry
2017-09-28 12:07:46 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Roland Perry
Manchester has a vast railway network
Vast compared to what? There are large parts of the north and south of the
city and satellite towns/suburbs that arn't anywhere near a train station.
Compared to other big cities outside London (other than perhaps
Birmingham and Glasgow).
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/routemaps/nationa
lrailoperatorsmapZoom.pdf>
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Roland Perry
Train users in London, like yourself, are paying for much of it.
I pay for a lot of things in my taxes that I never use. Thats how taxation
works.
Londoners are paying in their fares. On latest available figures, about
Thats 2 seperate issues. Londoners getting screwed on fares doesn't mean that
the northern cities shouldn't have decent public transport infrastructure.
Except where's the money coming from? Currently the vast amount being
"screwed" out of Londoners as the cross-subsidy isn't enough to stop the
northerners whinging.
--
Roland Perry
b***@cylonHQ.com
2017-09-28 14:01:38 UTC
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On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 13:07:46 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Roland Perry
Manchester has a vast railway network
Vast compared to what? There are large parts of the north and south of the
city and satellite towns/suburbs that arn't anywhere near a train station.
Compared to other big cities outside London (other than perhaps
Birmingham and Glasgow).
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/routemaps/nationa
lrailoperatorsmapZoom.pdf>
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Roland Perry
Train users in London, like yourself, are paying for much of it.
I pay for a lot of things in my taxes that I never use. Thats how taxation
works.
Londoners are paying in their fares. On latest available figures, about
Thats 2 seperate issues. Londoners getting screwed on fares doesn't mean that
the northern cities shouldn't have decent public transport infrastructure.
Except where's the money coming from? Currently the vast amount being
"screwed" out of Londoners as the cross-subsidy isn't enough to stop the
northerners whinging.
Dare I say the money thats going to be spent on HS2 would have been far better
spent on local rail and metro projects. The government always finds money when
it wants to, even where the economic case is flakey bordering on non existant
as it is with HS2.

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-09-27 12:15:47 UTC
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Post by Offramp
Post by Basil Jet
http://youtu.be/j6RWMaAtTOY
The tunnels have TWICE the cross section area of existing tube
tunnels, to allow a walkway!
Great idea! Walking along tracks is bloody awful. If there is an evac
then a walkway will speed things up enormously. Same with getting
mechanics to problem scenes.
Isn't it a requirement for all new tunnels to have an evacuation route for
walking and wheelchairs?
Post by Offramp
Post by Basil Jet
It looks like the public can get into a raised viewing platform
over the Battersea Power Station Station.
He mentioned a possible future extension to Clapham Jct!
That would make sense if Crossrail 2 goes ahead.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Basil Jet
2017-09-27 14:57:02 UTC
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Post by Offramp
Post by Basil Jet
http://youtu.be/j6RWMaAtTOY
The tunnels have TWICE the cross section area of existing tube tunnels,
to allow a walkway!
Great idea! Walking along tracks is bloody awful.
No, walking on sleepers is bloody awful. Walking along the tarmac
between tram tracks is okay. The benefit of the walkway beside the train
is mainly for wheelchairs. We have doubled the amount of spoil from new
tube extensions just for wheelchair users.

Having said that, a diversity firework in a train in the new tunnel
might only cause serious injuries in one carriage, as the walkway would
let the blast dissipate.
Post by Offramp
He mentioned a possible future extension to Clapham Jct!
I'll believe that when I ride on it. Would their contract with the train
manufacturers allow extra 95 stock for that, or would it have to wait
until the 95s are replaced?
Recliner
2017-09-27 15:20:00 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by Basil Jet
http://youtu.be/j6RWMaAtTOY
The tunnels have TWICE the cross section area of existing tube tunnels,
to allow a walkway!
Great idea! Walking along tracks is bloody awful.
No, walking on sleepers is bloody awful. Walking along the tarmac
between tram tracks is okay. The benefit of the walkway beside the train
is mainly for wheelchairs. We have doubled the amount of spoil from new
tube extensions just for wheelchair users.
Having said that, a diversity firework in a train in the new tunnel
might only cause serious injuries in one carriage, as the walkway would
let the blast dissipate.
Post by Offramp
He mentioned a possible future extension to Clapham Jct!
I'll believe that when I ride on it. Would their contract with the train
manufacturers allow extra 95 stock for that, or would it have to wait
until the 95s are replaced?
More stock is being procured, both for the Battersea extension, and more
intensive services on the whole line. It will probably look similar to the
current 95 stock, but may be technically more advanced.

I don't think there's any prospect of a further extension to Clapham
Junction during the remaining life of the 95s.
tim...
2017-09-27 18:43:55 UTC
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Post by Offramp
Post by Basil Jet
http://youtu.be/j6RWMaAtTOY
The tunnels have TWICE the cross section area of existing tube tunnels,
to allow a walkway!
Great idea! Walking along tracks is bloody awful. If there is an evac then
a walkway will speed things up enormously. Same with getting mechanics to
problem scenes.
and how many times a decade is there an evacuation?

and, assuming a theoretical equal chance [1] of that happening anywhere in
the network

how many times a century will an evacuation occur at this specific location?

tim

[1] which may not be correct but I have no way of determining otherwise
Recliner
2017-09-27 09:44:27 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
http://youtu.be/j6RWMaAtTOY
The tunnels have TWICE the cross section area of existing tube tunnels,
to allow a walkway!
Interesting. Of course, the DLR bored tunnels are similar. I wonder if the
Crossrail tunnels are also wide enough for a walkway, alongside the
mainline-size trains?

The larger tunnel will also reduce wind resistance and tunnel heating.
Post by Basil Jet
It looks like the public can get into a raised viewing platform over the
Battersea Power Station Station.
It would be nice if it's open to the public, but I suspect it isn't.
Basil Jet
2017-09-27 14:46:37 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
http://youtu.be/j6RWMaAtTOY
The tunnels have TWICE the cross section area of existing tube tunnels,
to allow a walkway!
Interesting. Of course, the DLR bored tunnels are similar. I wonder if the
Crossrail tunnels are also wide enough for a walkway, alongside the
mainline-size trains?
The larger tunnel will also reduce wind resistance and tunnel heating.
Post by Basil Jet
It looks like the public can get into a raised viewing platform over the
Battersea Power Station Station.
It would be nice if it's open to the public, but I suspect it isn't.
The sign says "Pedestrian and visitor entrance."
The viewing platform has one of those information boards that you get at
National Trust viewpoints. I doubt it would have that if you could only
get there on booked shepherded tours like the one Geoff had.
Recliner
2017-09-27 14:56:35 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
http://youtu.be/j6RWMaAtTOY
The tunnels have TWICE the cross section area of existing tube tunnels,
to allow a walkway!
Interesting. Of course, the DLR bored tunnels are similar. I wonder if the
Crossrail tunnels are also wide enough for a walkway, alongside the
mainline-size trains?
The larger tunnel will also reduce wind resistance and tunnel heating.
Post by Basil Jet
It looks like the public can get into a raised viewing platform over the
Battersea Power Station Station.
It would be nice if it's open to the public, but I suspect it isn't.
The sign says "Pedestrian and visitor entrance."
The viewing platform has one of those information boards that you get at
National Trust viewpoints. I doubt it would have that if you could only
get there on booked shepherded tours like the one Geoff had.
Ah, that sounds promising!
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