Discussion:
Why is the piccadilly line so slow?
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b***@cylonHQ.com
2017-09-19 08:44:25 UTC
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Its got to the point where its just painful to use in the mornings and
unsurprisingly the vast majority of people bail out at Finsbury and get on
the victoria line putting added strain on that.

Why is it so slow and so unreliable with frequent train gaps of 5 or 6 minutes
the rush hour?

Trains?
Drivers?
Signalling?
Dwell times?
Stations too close together in the centre with too much stopping?
All of the above?
Offramp
2017-09-19 11:04:43 UTC
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On Tuesday, 19 September 2017 09:44:27 UTC+1, ***@cylonhq.com wrote:
...
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Stations too close together in the centre with too much stopping?
That has always got on my nerves. There is this huge distance, Caledonian Road to King's Cross, then the stops bunch right up together. Leicester Sq to Covent Garden is the worst example. Thank god they closed a few (Brompton Rd, Down St...).

I'd like to know the travelling times between King's Cross and Green Park on the Piccadilly Line and the Victoria Line. I'll bet it's about 10 minutes difference.
b***@cylonHQ.com
2017-09-19 11:14:51 UTC
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On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 04:04:43 -0700 (PDT)
Post by Offramp
....
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Stations too close together in the centre with too much stopping?
That has always got on my nerves. There is this huge distance, Caledonian Road
to King's Cross, then the stops bunch right up together. Leicester Sq to
Covent Garden is the worst example. Thank god they closed a few (Brompton Rd,
Down St...).
I wonder why covent garden was spared? Its a small cramped station that can't
really cope with evening crowds and its literally a 3-4 minute walk to
leicester square. Its a bit of an anomoly IMO.
Robin
2017-09-19 13:13:20 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 04:04:43 -0700 (PDT)
Post by Offramp
....
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Stations too close together in the centre with too much stopping?
That has always got on my nerves. There is this huge distance, Caledonian Road
to King's Cross, then the stops bunch right up together. Leicester Sq to
Covent Garden is the worst example. Thank god they closed a few (Brompton Rd,
Down St...).
I wonder why covent garden was spared? Its a small cramped station that can't
really cope with evening crowds and its literally a 3-4 minute walk to
leicester square. Its a bit of an anomoly IMO.
IMO the explanation is lots of tourists, who support lots of shops and
restaurants, who pay lots of business rates, add up to a good case not
to make it harder for tourists to find Covent Garden (on the tube map)
and get there.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Basil Jet
2017-09-19 13:38:21 UTC
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Post by Robin
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 04:04:43 -0700 (PDT)
Post by Offramp
....
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Stations too close together in the centre with too much stopping?
That has always got on my nerves. There is this huge distance, Caledonian Road
to King's Cross, then the stops bunch right up together. Leicester Sq to
Covent Garden is the worst example. Thank god they closed a few (Brompton Rd,
Down St...).
I wonder why covent garden was spared? Its a small cramped station that can't
really cope with evening crowds and its literally a 3-4 minute walk to
leicester square. Its a bit of an anomoly IMO.
IMO the explanation is lots of tourists, who support lots of shops and
restaurants, who pay lots of business rates, add up to a good case not
to make it harder for tourists to find Covent Garden (on the tube map)
and get there.
I suspect the opera house is more likely to be the reason. Covent Garden
was still a fruit market when the other Picc stations closed.
Recliner
2017-09-19 14:05:01 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Robin
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 04:04:43 -0700 (PDT)
Post by Offramp
....
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Stations too close together in the centre with too much stopping?
That has always got on my nerves. There is this huge distance, Caledonian Road
to King's Cross, then the stops bunch right up together. Leicester Sq to
Covent Garden is the worst example. Thank god they closed a few (Brompton Rd,
Down St...).
I wonder why covent garden was spared? Its a small cramped station that can't
really cope with evening crowds and its literally a 3-4 minute walk to
leicester square. Its a bit of an anomoly IMO.
IMO the explanation is lots of tourists, who support lots of shops and
restaurants, who pay lots of business rates, add up to a good case not
to make it harder for tourists to find Covent Garden (on the tube map)
and get there.
I suspect the opera house is more likely to be the reason. Covent Garden
was still a fruit market when the other Picc stations closed.
Not to mention the LT Museum — wouldn't it be embarrassing to close the
nearest station to it? The next nearest was closed in 1994, though that
one was always an anachronism.

I think that Covent Garden station has always been reasonably well used,
unlike the three central London Piccadilly line stations (one on Piccadilly
itself) that were closed early in the line's life.

Of those three, York Road might do much better if it reopened, but I'd say
that was highly unlikely, because of the high cost, slowing the line down,
and probably failing to attract many net new customers.
Roland Perry
2017-09-19 16:33:58 UTC
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<2139708868.527522104.669450.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-sept
ember.org>, at 14:05:01 on Tue, 19 Sep 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Robin
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I wonder why covent garden was spared? Its a small cramped station
that can't really cope with evening crowds and its literally a 3-4
minute walk to leicester square. Its a bit of an anomoly IMO.
IMO the explanation is lots of tourists, who support lots of shops and
restaurants, who pay lots of business rates, add up to a good case not
to make it harder for tourists to find Covent Garden (on the tube map)
and get there.
I suspect the opera house is more likely to be the reason. Covent Garden
was still a fruit market when the other Picc stations closed.
Not to mention the LT Museum — wouldn't it be embarrassing to close the
nearest station to it?
The museum opened in 1980, when were the closures of York Rd, Brompton
Rd etc?

Almost fifty years earlier I think.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-09-19 17:28:34 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 14:05:01 on Tue, 19 Sep 2017, Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Robin
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I wonder why covent garden was spared? Its a small cramped station
that can't really cope with evening crowds and its literally a 3-4
minute walk to leicester square. Its a bit of an anomoly IMO.
IMO the explanation is lots of tourists, who support lots of shops and
restaurants, who pay lots of business rates, add up to a good case not
to make it harder for tourists to find Covent Garden (on the tube map)
and get there.
I suspect the opera house is more likely to be the reason. Covent
Garden was still a fruit market when the other Picc stations closed.
And flower market.
Post by Roland Perry
Not to mention the LT Museum _ wouldn't it be embarrassing to close the
nearest station to it?
The museum opened in 1980, when were the closures of York Rd,
Brompton Rd etc?
Almost fifty years earlier I think.
1934. The stations were closed because they were lightly trafficked. Also,
Down St was closed because it was in effect merged with Dover St to make
Green Park.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Recliner
2017-09-19 19:49:53 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 14:05:01 on Tue, 19 Sep 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Robin
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I wonder why covent garden was spared? Its a small cramped station
that can't really cope with evening crowds and its literally a 3-4
minute walk to leicester square. Its a bit of an anomoly IMO.
IMO the explanation is lots of tourists, who support lots of shops and
restaurants, who pay lots of business rates, add up to a good case not
to make it harder for tourists to find Covent Garden (on the tube map)
and get there.
I suspect the opera house is more likely to be the reason. Covent Garden
was still a fruit market when the other Picc stations closed.
Not to mention the LT Museum — wouldn't it be embarrassing to close the
nearest station to it?
The museum opened in 1980, when were the closures of York Rd, Brompton
Rd etc?
Almost fifty years earlier I think.
I was suggesting that it survived the 1990s closures partly for that
reason. I dare say that there were suggestions to close it rather than
replacing the lifts.
Roland Perry
2017-09-19 20:55:24 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Robin
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I wonder why covent garden was spared? Its a small cramped station
that can't really cope with evening crowds and its literally a 3-4
minute walk to leicester square. Its a bit of an anomoly IMO.
IMO the explanation is lots of tourists, who support lots of shops and
restaurants, who pay lots of business rates, add up to a good case not
to make it harder for tourists to find Covent Garden (on the tube map)
and get there.
I suspect the opera house is more likely to be the reason. Covent Garden
was still a fruit market when the other Picc stations closed.
Not to mention the LT Museum — wouldn't it be embarrassing to close the
nearest station to it?
The museum opened in 1980, when were the closures of York Rd, Brompton
Rd etc?
Almost fifty years earlier I think.
I was suggesting that it survived the 1990s closures partly for that
reason. I dare say that there were suggestions to close it rather than
replacing the lifts.
Apart from Aldwych that closed for very different reasons, what others
were shuttered up in the 90's?
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-09-19 21:08:35 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Robin
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I wonder why covent garden was spared? Its a small cramped station
that can't really cope with evening crowds and its literally a 3-4
minute walk to leicester square. Its a bit of an anomoly IMO.
IMO the explanation is lots of tourists, who support lots of shops and
restaurants, who pay lots of business rates, add up to a good case not
to make it harder for tourists to find Covent Garden (on the tube map)
and get there.
I suspect the opera house is more likely to be the reason. Covent Garden
was still a fruit market when the other Picc stations closed.
Not to mention the LT Museum — wouldn't it be embarrassing to close the
nearest station to it?
The museum opened in 1980, when were the closures of York Rd, Brompton
Rd etc?
Almost fifty years earlier I think.
I was suggesting that it survived the 1990s closures partly for that
reason. I dare say that there were suggestions to close it rather than
replacing the lifts.
Apart from Aldwych that closed for very different reasons, what others
were shuttered up in the 90's?
The Ongar branch closed on the same day as Aldwych. They could well have
closed Covent Garden on the same day, had there been a desire to do so.
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-09-20 00:37:57 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Robin
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I wonder why covent garden was spared? Its a small cramped station
that can't really cope with evening crowds and its literally a
3-4 minute walk to leicester square. Its a bit of an anomoly IMO.
IMO the explanation is lots of tourists, who support lots of shops
and restaurants, who pay lots of business rates, add up to a good
case not to make it harder for tourists to find Covent Garden (on
the tube map) and get there.
I suspect the opera house is more likely to be the reason. Covent
Garden was still a fruit market when the other Picc stations closed.
Not to mention the LT Museum _ wouldn't it be embarrassing to close
the nearest station to it?
The museum opened in 1980, when were the closures of York Rd, Brompton
Rd etc?
Almost fifty years earlier I think.
I was suggesting that it survived the 1990s closures partly for that
reason. I dare say that there were suggestions to close it rather than
replacing the lifts.
Apart from Aldwych that closed for very different reasons, what
others were shuttered up in the 90's?
The Ongar branch closed on the same day as Aldwych. They could well have
closed Covent Garden on the same day, had there been a desire to do so.
And if the government was willing after a formal closure application to
allow it to do so. Covent Garden was far busier than Aldwych/Ongar by 1994.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Recliner
2017-09-20 00:45:22 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Robin
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I wonder why covent garden was spared? Its a small cramped station
that can't really cope with evening crowds and its literally a
3-4 minute walk to leicester square. Its a bit of an anomoly IMO.
IMO the explanation is lots of tourists, who support lots of shops
and restaurants, who pay lots of business rates, add up to a good
case not to make it harder for tourists to find Covent Garden (on
the tube map) and get there.
I suspect the opera house is more likely to be the reason. Covent
Garden was still a fruit market when the other Picc stations closed.
Not to mention the LT Museum _ wouldn't it be embarrassing to close
the nearest station to it?
The museum opened in 1980, when were the closures of York Rd, Brompton
Rd etc?
Almost fifty years earlier I think.
I was suggesting that it survived the 1990s closures partly for that
reason. I dare say that there were suggestions to close it rather than
replacing the lifts.
Apart from Aldwych that closed for very different reasons, what
others were shuttered up in the 90's?
The Ongar branch closed on the same day as Aldwych. They could well have
closed Covent Garden on the same day, had there been a desire to do so.
And if the government was willing after a formal closure application to
allow it to do so. Covent Garden was far busier than Aldwych/Ongar by 1994.
Exactly. It may be close to Leicester Square station underground, but
Covent Garden station is nevertheless a busy station in its own right. And
the surface route between them isn't direct or obvious.
Jarle Hammen Knudsen
2017-09-20 06:20:32 UTC
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On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 00:45:22 GMT, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Exactly. It may be close to Leicester Square station underground, but
Covent Garden station is nevertheless a busy station in its own right. And
the surface route between them isn't direct or obvious.
It looks pretty straight on Google maps along Cranbourn St and Long
Acre, but I don't think I have walked that way when I've been in
London.
--
jhk
Roland Perry
2017-09-20 07:45:04 UTC
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Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
Post by Recliner
Exactly. It may be close to Leicester Square station underground, but
Covent Garden station is nevertheless a busy station in its own right. And
the surface route between them isn't direct or obvious.
It looks pretty straight on Google maps along Cranbourn St and Long
Acre, but I don't think I have walked that way when I've been in
London.
Perhaps because of the talcum powder?

Joking apart, I've walked down there a hundred times, and that's without
ever having lived or worked in the vicinity.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2017-09-20 07:43:43 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Robin
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I wonder why covent garden was spared? Its a small cramped station
that can't really cope with evening crowds and its literally a
3-4 minute walk to leicester square. Its a bit of an anomoly IMO.
IMO the explanation is lots of tourists, who support lots of shops
and restaurants, who pay lots of business rates, add up to a good
case not to make it harder for tourists to find Covent Garden (on
the tube map) and get there.
I suspect the opera house is more likely to be the reason. Covent
Garden was still a fruit market when the other Picc stations closed.
Not to mention the LT Museum _ wouldn't it be embarrassing to close
the nearest station to it?
The museum opened in 1980, when were the closures of York Rd, Brompton
Rd etc?
Almost fifty years earlier I think.
I was suggesting that it survived the 1990s closures partly for that
reason. I dare say that there were suggestions to close it rather than
replacing the lifts.
Apart from Aldwych that closed for very different reasons, what
others were shuttered up in the 90's?
The Ongar branch closed on the same day as Aldwych. They could well have
closed Covent Garden on the same day, had there been a desire to do so.
And if the government was willing after a formal closure application to
allow it to do so. Covent Garden was far busier than Aldwych/Ongar by 1994.
Exactly. It may be close to Leicester Square station underground, but
Covent Garden station is nevertheless a busy station in its own right.
The suggestion was that it might have closed because it was *too* busy.
In fact I think it does get turned into an arrivals-only station
sometimes.
Post by Recliner
And the surface route between them isn't direct or obvious.
Nonsense! Not only is it a straight and direct route, there's signage
right outside the station entrance: https://goo.gl/maps/cpuGjitWyNt
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2017-09-20 07:39:13 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Robin
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I wonder why covent garden was spared? Its a small cramped station
that can't really cope with evening crowds and its literally a 3-4
minute walk to leicester square. Its a bit of an anomoly IMO.
IMO the explanation is lots of tourists, who support lots of shops and
restaurants, who pay lots of business rates, add up to a good case not
to make it harder for tourists to find Covent Garden (on the tube map)
and get there.
I suspect the opera house is more likely to be the reason. Covent Garden
was still a fruit market when the other Picc stations closed.
Not to mention the LT Museum — wouldn't it be embarrassing to close the
nearest station to it?
The museum opened in 1980, when were the closures of York Rd, Brompton
Rd etc?
Almost fifty years earlier I think.
I was suggesting that it survived the 1990s closures partly for that
reason. I dare say that there were suggestions to close it rather than
replacing the lifts.
Apart from Aldwych that closed for very different reasons, what others
were shuttered up in the 90's?
The Ongar branch closed on the same day as Aldwych. They could well have
closed Covent Garden on the same day, had there been a desire to do so.
The Ongar branch is the same kind of completely different closure as the
'Aldwych Branch'. There's no synergy whatsoever with closing just one
intermediate station on a line that's still operating fully.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-09-20 11:55:41 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Robin
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I wonder why covent garden was spared? Its a small cramped station
that can't really cope with evening crowds and its literally a 3-4
minute walk to leicester square. Its a bit of an anomoly IMO.
IMO the explanation is lots of tourists, who support lots of shops and
restaurants, who pay lots of business rates, add up to a good case not
to make it harder for tourists to find Covent Garden (on the tube map)
and get there.
I suspect the opera house is more likely to be the reason. Covent Garden
was still a fruit market when the other Picc stations closed.
Not to mention the LT Museum — wouldn't it be embarrassing to close the
nearest station to it?
The museum opened in 1980, when were the closures of York Rd, Brompton
Rd etc?
Almost fifty years earlier I think.
I was suggesting that it survived the 1990s closures partly for that
reason. I dare say that there were suggestions to close it rather than
replacing the lifts.
Apart from Aldwych that closed for very different reasons, what others
were shuttered up in the 90's?
The Ongar branch closed on the same day as Aldwych. They could well have
closed Covent Garden on the same day, had there been a desire to do so.
The Ongar branch is the same kind of completely different closure as the
'Aldwych Branch'. There's no synergy whatsoever with closing just one
intermediate station on a line that's still operating fully.
The synergy is that they could have slipped it in to the closures list
had they really wanted to close it. But they didn't.
Roland Perry
2017-09-20 12:57:41 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The Ongar branch is the same kind of completely different closure as the
'Aldwych Branch'. There's no synergy whatsoever with closing just one
intermediate station on a line that's still operating fully.
The synergy is that they could have slipped it in to the closures list
had they really wanted to close it. But they didn't.
You'll need to cite rather more about the process of closures to make
that opinion stick.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-09-20 13:44:51 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The Ongar branch is the same kind of completely different closure as the
'Aldwych Branch'. There's no synergy whatsoever with closing just one
intermediate station on a line that's still operating fully.
The synergy is that they could have slipped it in to the closures list
had they really wanted to close it. But they didn't.
You'll need to cite rather more about the process of closures to make
that opinion stick.
Huh? I'm saying they didn't want to close it, so what has the process
of closures got to do with anything?
Roland Perry
2017-09-20 13:55:20 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The Ongar branch is the same kind of completely different closure as the
'Aldwych Branch'. There's no synergy whatsoever with closing just one
intermediate station on a line that's still operating fully.
The synergy is that they could have slipped it in to the closures list
had they really wanted to close it. But they didn't.
You'll need to cite rather more about the process of closures to make
that opinion stick.
Huh? I'm saying they didn't want to close it, so what has the process
of closures got to do with anything?
I'm contesting the "could have if they wanted to".
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2017-09-19 16:29:09 UTC
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Post by Robin
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I wonder why covent garden was spared? Its a small cramped station that can't
really cope with evening crowds and its literally a 3-4 minute walk to
leicester square. Its a bit of an anomoly IMO.
IMO the explanation is lots of tourists, who support lots of shops and
restaurants, who pay lots of business rates,
Unlike the rest of the country, are London business rates kept by the
local authority, or are they just general revenue kept by the Treasury?
Post by Robin
add up to a good case not to make it harder for tourists to find Covent
Garden (on the tube map) and get there.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-09-19 17:28:34 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Robin
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I wonder why covent garden was spared? Its a small cramped station
that can't really cope with evening crowds and its literally a 3-4
minute walk to leicester square. Its a bit of an anomoly IMO.
IMO the explanation is lots of tourists, who support lots of shops and
restaurants, who pay lots of business rates,
Unlike the rest of the country, are London business rates kept by the
local authority, or are they just general revenue kept by the
Treasury?
Not really, though it does sort of come back to local authorities now.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Robin
2017-09-20 08:48:20 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Robin
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I wonder why covent garden was spared? Its a small cramped station
that can't really cope with evening crowds and its literally a 3-4
minute walk to leicester square. Its a bit of an anomoly IMO.
IMO the explanation is lots of tourists, who support lots of shops and
restaurants, who pay lots of business rates,
Unlike the rest of the country, are London business rates kept by the
local authority, or are they just general revenue kept by the
Treasury?
Not really, though it does sort of come back to local authorities now.
Without wanting to get into a Boris-style battle, since 2013 it is not
all paid over gross to central government. Broadly, LAs handed over
half and kept half, but the half they keep is subject to various
reductions adjustments (levies? circumcisions?) and additions. A
government Bill in 2016 proposed 100 percent retention but that fell
with the General Election.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Basil Jet
2017-09-19 13:34:37 UTC
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Post by Offramp
...
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Stations too close together in the centre with too much stopping?
That has always got on my nerves. There is this huge distance, Caledonian Road to King's Cross, then the stops bunch right up together. Leicester Sq to Covent Garden is the worst example. Thank god they closed a few (Brompton Rd, Down St...).
I'd like to know the travelling times between King's Cross and Green Park on the Piccadilly Line and the Victoria Line. I'll bet it's about 10 minutes difference.
The working timetables are all online at
https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/working-timetables
(it uses the TfL alphabet, in which Piccadilly comes before Northern)

Krapy Rubsnif to Kings Cross:
Vic = 310 seconds N/B or 315 seconds S/B
Picc = 7.5 minutes N/B or 8 minutes S/B
About 2.5 minutes difference

KX to Green Park:
Vic = 400 seconds N/B or 390 seconds S/B
Picc = 10 minutes N/B or 9.5 minutes S/B
About 3.5 minutes difference
Offramp
2017-09-21 04:53:15 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
The working timetables are all online at
https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/working-timetables
Vic = 310 seconds N/B or 315 seconds S/B
Picc = 7.5 minutes N/B or 8 minutes S/B
About 2.5 minutes difference
Vic = 400 seconds N/B or 390 seconds S/B
Picc = 10 minutes N/B or 9.5 minutes S/B
About 3.5 minutes difference
Those are the official times. The OP thinks that Picc trains are running much slower in real life, causing people to bail out at Finsbury.

Does anyone here have Trackernet or a similar program that might give a real, rush hour timing for Picc trains?
b***@cylonHQ.com
2017-09-21 08:32:03 UTC
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On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 21:53:15 -0700 (PDT)
Post by Offramp
Post by Basil Jet
The working timetables are all online at
https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/working-timetables
Vic = 310 seconds N/B or 315 seconds S/B
Picc = 7.5 minutes N/B or 8 minutes S/B
About 2.5 minutes difference
Vic = 400 seconds N/B or 390 seconds S/B
Picc = 10 minutes N/B or 9.5 minutes S/B
About 3.5 minutes difference
Those are the official times. The OP thinks that Picc trains are running much
slower in real life, causing people to bail out at Finsbury.
They are. Often they'll sit at finsbury on the S/B for 1-2 minutes presumably
to "regulate the service" (ie sort out their timetable fuckups) and then
you'll have the endless delays up to KX and through the west end. On the times
I've taken the picc to green park it often takes 10 mins and now and then 15
mins longer than the victoria line on a bad day. N/B i simply don't bother with,
I just head straight to the vic platforms to start with.
Offramp
2017-09-21 09:20:56 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Vic = 310 seconds N/B or 315 seconds S/B
Picc = 7.5 minutes N/B or 8 minutes S/B
About 2.5 minutes difference
Vic = 400 seconds N/B or 390 seconds S/B
Picc = 10 minutes N/B or 9.5 minutes S/B
About 3.5 minutes difference
I followed the progress of train 354 on 21st September 2017. Occasionally it was right behind train 306, which might have slowed it a bit. This was just after the rush hour.

Finsbury Park 09:54
King's X 10:04
Green Park 10:14.

So it took 20 minutes from FP to GP. The timetable says it should be 17.5, so I think that looks reasonably close. It might be very different at 8:30 am, though.
Recliner
2017-09-20 00:33:23 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Its got to the point where its just painful to use in the mornings and
unsurprisingly the vast majority of people bail out at Finsbury and get on
the victoria line putting added strain on that.
Why is it so slow and so unreliable with frequent train gaps of 5 or 6 minutes
the rush hour?
Trains?
Drivers?
Signalling?
Dwell times?
Stations too close together in the centre with too much stopping?
All of the above?
Here's an interesting article about how the Victoria line, with new
automatic trains and signalling, achieves its very high frequency:
<https://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/ninety-second-railway-making-victoria-frequent-metro-world/>

Maybe, when the Piccadilly line also has state of the art trains and
signalling, it will do the same. But it will still have a route with
curvier tunnels and more stops than the much newer Victoria line, opened
more than 60 years later.
b***@cylonHQ.com
2017-09-20 08:41:57 UTC
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On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 00:33:23 GMT
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Its got to the point where its just painful to use in the mornings and
unsurprisingly the vast majority of people bail out at Finsbury and get on
the victoria line putting added strain on that.
Why is it so slow and so unreliable with frequent train gaps of 5 or 6
minutes
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
the rush hour?
Trains?
Drivers?
Signalling?
Dwell times?
Stations too close together in the centre with too much stopping?
All of the above?
Here's an interesting article about how the Victoria line, with new
<https://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/ninety-second-railway-making-victoria
frequent-metro-world/>
Maybe, when the Piccadilly line also has state of the art trains and
signalling, it will do the same. But it will still have a route with
curvier tunnels and more stops than the much newer Victoria line, opened
more than 60 years later.
The picc only has sharp curves at holborn and kensington. The rest of the line
is pretty straight with a long no stopping section between hammersmith and
acton that should in theory allow drivers to catch up if they're running
late.
Richard J.
2017-09-20 10:30:02 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 00:33:23 GMT
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Its got to the point where its just painful to use in the mornings and
unsurprisingly the vast majority of people bail out at Finsbury and get on
the victoria line putting added strain on that.
Why is it so slow and so unreliable with frequent train gaps of 5 or 6
minutes
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
the rush hour?
Trains?
Drivers?
Signalling?
Dwell times?
Stations too close together in the centre with too much stopping?
All of the above?
Here's an interesting article about how the Victoria line, with new
<https://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/ninety-second-railway-making-victoria
frequent-metro-world/>
Maybe, when the Piccadilly line also has state of the art trains and
signalling, it will do the same. But it will still have a route with
curvier tunnels and more stops than the much newer Victoria line, opened
more than 60 years later.
The picc only has sharp curves at holborn and kensington. The rest of the line
is pretty straight with a long no stopping section between hammersmith and
acton that should in theory allow drivers to catch up if they're running
late.
How do you catch up if you're normally running at the 45mph limit for that section? In practice, if the service is running late, the westbound Picc trains often queue up to get into Acton Town. It's ironic that at a 4-platform station they manage to make it a bottleneck by changing drivers there and not always using the extra platform.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)
Recliner
2017-09-20 10:50:39 UTC
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Post by Richard J.
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 00:33:23 GMT
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Its got to the point where its just painful to use in the mornings and
unsurprisingly the vast majority of people bail out at Finsbury and get on
the victoria line putting added strain on that.
Why is it so slow and so unreliable with frequent train gaps of 5 or 6
minutes
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
the rush hour?
Trains?
Drivers?
Signalling?
Dwell times?
Stations too close together in the centre with too much stopping?
All of the above?
Here's an interesting article about how the Victoria line, with new
<https://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/ninety-second-railway-making-victoria
frequent-metro-world/>
Maybe, when the Piccadilly line also has state of the art trains and
signalling, it will do the same. But it will still have a route with
curvier tunnels and more stops than the much newer Victoria line, opened
more than 60 years later.
The picc only has sharp curves at holborn and kensington. The rest of the line
is pretty straight with a long no stopping section between hammersmith and
acton that should in theory allow drivers to catch up if they're running
late.
How do you catch up if you're normally running at the 45mph limit for
that section? In practice, if the service is running late, the westbound
Picc trains often queue up to get into Acton Town. It's ironic that at a
4-platform station they manage to make it a bottleneck by changing
drivers there and not always using the extra platform.
Northfields trains tend to use the westbound District platform 1; Rayners
Lane trains use 1 or 2; and Heathrow trains normally use 2.
b***@cylonHQ.com
2017-09-20 13:03:05 UTC
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On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:30:02 +0100
Post by Richard J.
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
is pretty straight with a long no stopping section between hammersmith and
acton that should in theory allow drivers to catch up if they're running
late.
How do you catch up if you're normally running at the 45mph limit for that
Except in my experience they don't.
Post by Richard J.
section? In practice, if the service is running late, the westbound Picc
trains often queue up to get into Acton Town. It's ironic that at a 4-platform
station they manage to make it a bottleneck by changing drivers there and not
always using the extra platform.
They manage that at arnos grove too. Its quite an achievement really to get
something so simple so arse about face. I guess they just let the clockwork
computer at earls court to do its thing and no one bothers to override it,
easier to just let the line block up and read The Sun.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-09-20 13:52:45 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:30:02 +0100
Post by Richard J.
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
is pretty straight with a long no stopping section between hammersmith and
acton that should in theory allow drivers to catch up if they're running
late.
How do you catch up if you're normally running at the 45mph limit for that
Except in my experience they don't.
Probably because they're following another one, that's following
another one, that's following another one, all being slowed down by
the congestion at Acton Town and Hammersmith
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Richard J.
section? In practice, if the service is running late, the westbound Picc
trains often queue up to get into Acton Town. It's ironic that at a 4-platform
station they manage to make it a bottleneck by changing drivers there and not
always using the extra platform.
They manage that at arnos grove too. Its quite an achievement really to get
something so simple so arse about face. I guess they just let the clockwork
computer at earls court to do its thing and no one bothers to override it,
easier to just let the line block up and read The Sun.
Crew changes and the wonky signalling at Acton Town cause most of the
delays.
Recliner
2017-09-20 08:56:00 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 00:33:23 GMT
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Its got to the point where its just painful to use in the mornings and
unsurprisingly the vast majority of people bail out at Finsbury and get on
the victoria line putting added strain on that.
Why is it so slow and so unreliable with frequent train gaps of 5 or 6
minutes
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
the rush hour?
Trains?
Drivers?
Signalling?
Dwell times?
Stations too close together in the centre with too much stopping?
All of the above?
Here's an interesting article about how the Victoria line, with new
<https://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/ninety-second-railway-making-victoria
frequent-metro-world/>
Maybe, when the Piccadilly line also has state of the art trains and
signalling, it will do the same. But it will still have a route with
curvier tunnels and more stops than the much newer Victoria line, opened
more than 60 years later.
The picc only has sharp curves at holborn and kensington. The rest of the line
is pretty straight with a long no stopping section between hammersmith and
acton that should in theory allow drivers to catch up if they're running
late.
Not really. They're scheduled to run fast on that section anyway, and the
old signalling doesn't allow them to run closer. Mostly they run slower
than they theoretically could on that section because they're following
another train. And they may slow down to a crawl towards Hammersmith or
Acton Town as the platform is still occupied by the previous train (that
happened to me yesterday). So there's little or no scope to catch up if
"they're running late".
David Cantrell
2017-09-20 12:48:24 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Its got to the point where its just painful to use in the mornings and
unsurprisingly the vast majority of people bail out at Finsbury and get on
the victoria line putting added strain on that.
It couldn't be that people are changing trains because the Victoria line
goes where they want to go could it? That's the reason that *I* change
at Finsbury Park pretty much every time I use the Piccadilly line.
--
David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive

There are many different types of sausages. The best are
from the north of England. The wurst are from Germany.
-- seen in alt.2eggs...
b***@cylonHQ.com
2017-09-20 13:07:01 UTC
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On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 13:48:24 +0100
Post by David Cantrell
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Its got to the point where its just painful to use in the mornings and
unsurprisingly the vast majority of people bail out at Finsbury and get on
the victoria line putting added strain on that.
It couldn't be that people are changing trains because the Victoria line
goes where they want to go could it? That's the reason that *I* change
at Finsbury Park pretty much every time I use the Piccadilly line.
I doubt all the people who get off the picc at finsbury are specifically going
to a victoria line station.
Offramp
2017-09-20 13:41:37 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I doubt all the people who get off the picc at finsbury are specifically going
to a victoria line station.
I can imagine someone who lives at Cockfosters and works at Hyde Park Corner travelling Cockfosters - Finsbury Park, FP (Vic) - Green Park and walking.
Basil Jet
2017-09-20 18:03:23 UTC
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Post by Offramp
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I doubt all the people who get off the picc at finsbury are specifically going
to a victoria line station.
I can imagine someone who lives at Cockfosters and works at Hyde Park Corner travelling Cockfosters - Finsbury Park, FP (Vic) - Green Park and walking.
Was that "can" supposed to be "can't"?

Oggy Circus and Victoria are two of the four busiest tube stations:
Waterloo is another, and the easiest route from Cockfosters involves
taking the Vic from Finny P to Oggy C.
Recliner
2017-09-20 20:12:31 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I doubt all the people who get off the picc at finsbury are specifically going
to a victoria line station.
I can imagine someone who lives at Cockfosters and works at Hyde Park
Corner travelling Cockfosters - Finsbury Park, FP (Vic) - Green Park and walking.
Was that "can" supposed to be "can't"?
Waterloo is another, and the easiest route from Cockfosters involves
taking the Vic from Finny P to Oggy C.
If I'd got a seat on the Picc from Cockfosters, I'd stay seated in
reasonable comfort on the train all the way to Hyde Park corner, rather
than having to stand on a packed Victoria line train from Finsbury Park to
Green Park, and then having a 10 min walk to Hyde Park Corner (maybe in the
rain) that more than wasted the few minutes I'd saved standing on the
Victoria line train.
Offramp
2017-09-20 20:22:39 UTC
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Post by Recliner
If I'd got a seat on the Picc from Cockfosters, I'd stay seated in
reasonable comfort on the train all the way to Hyde Park corner, rather
than having to stand on a packed Victoria line train from Finsbury Park to
Green Park, and then having a 10 min walk to Hyde Park Corner (maybe in the
rain) that more than wasted the few minutes I'd saved standing on the
Victoria line train.
Is this not what this thread is about?
Recliner
2017-09-20 20:45:24 UTC
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Post by Offramp
Post by Recliner
If I'd got a seat on the Picc from Cockfosters, I'd stay seated in
reasonable comfort on the train all the way to Hyde Park corner, rather
than having to stand on a packed Victoria line train from Finsbury Park to
Green Park, and then having a 10 min walk to Hyde Park Corner (maybe in the
rain) that more than wasted the few minutes I'd saved standing on the
Victoria line train.
Is this not what this thread is about?
Indeed, this is one thread that's not drifted!
b***@cylonHQ.com
2017-09-21 08:29:55 UTC
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On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 20:12:31 GMT
Post by Offramp
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I doubt all the people who get off the picc at finsbury are specifically
going
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
to a victoria line station.
I can imagine someone who lives at Cockfosters and works at Hyde Park
Corner travelling Cockfosters - Finsbury Park, FP (Vic) - Green Park and
walking.
Post by Basil Jet
Was that "can" supposed to be "can't"?
Waterloo is another, and the easiest route from Cockfosters involves
taking the Vic from Finny P to Oggy C.
If I'd got a seat on the Picc from Cockfosters, I'd stay seated in
reasonable comfort on the train all the way to Hyde Park corner, rather
than having to stand on a packed Victoria line train from Finsbury Park to
Green Park, and then having a 10 min walk to Hyde Park Corner (maybe in the
rain) that more than wasted the few minutes I'd saved standing on the
Victoria line train.
I suppose it depends if you value comfort over time. Personally I've got
better things to do than spend an extra 10-15 mins trundling through the
west end on the piccadilly line.
Recliner
2017-09-21 09:18:38 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 20:12:31 GMT
Post by Offramp
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I doubt all the people who get off the picc at finsbury are specifically
going
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
to a victoria line station.
I can imagine someone who lives at Cockfosters and works at Hyde Park
Corner travelling Cockfosters - Finsbury Park, FP (Vic) - Green Park and
walking.
Post by Basil Jet
Was that "can" supposed to be "can't"?
Waterloo is another, and the easiest route from Cockfosters involves
taking the Vic from Finny P to Oggy C.
If I'd got a seat on the Picc from Cockfosters, I'd stay seated in
reasonable comfort on the train all the way to Hyde Park corner, rather
than having to stand on a packed Victoria line train from Finsbury Park to
Green Park, and then having a 10 min walk to Hyde Park Corner (maybe in the
rain) that more than wasted the few minutes I'd saved standing on the
Victoria line train.
I suppose it depends if you value comfort over time. Personally I've got
better things to do than spend an extra 10-15 mins trundling through the
west end on the piccadilly line.
In that particular example, the comfortable option is also quicker. But
obviously it wouldn't always be the case.
b***@cylonHQ.com
2017-09-21 10:45:06 UTC
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On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 09:18:38 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 20:12:31 GMT
Post by Offramp
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I doubt all the people who get off the picc at finsbury are specifically
going
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
to a victoria line station.
I can imagine someone who lives at Cockfosters and works at Hyde Park
Corner travelling Cockfosters - Finsbury Park, FP (Vic) - Green Park and
walking.
Post by Basil Jet
Was that "can" supposed to be "can't"?
Waterloo is another, and the easiest route from Cockfosters involves
taking the Vic from Finny P to Oggy C.
If I'd got a seat on the Picc from Cockfosters, I'd stay seated in
reasonable comfort on the train all the way to Hyde Park corner, rather
than having to stand on a packed Victoria line train from Finsbury Park to
Green Park, and then having a 10 min walk to Hyde Park Corner (maybe in the
rain) that more than wasted the few minutes I'd saved standing on the
Victoria line train.
I suppose it depends if you value comfort over time. Personally I've got
better things to do than spend an extra 10-15 mins trundling through the
west end on the piccadilly line.
In that particular example, the comfortable option is also quicker. But
obviously it wouldn't always be the case.
You could always walk from the vic to the picc at green park though the poorly
designed layout at that station makes it far more of a slog than it should be
just to change lines.
Recliner
2017-09-21 11:02:26 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 09:18:38 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 20:12:31 GMT
Post by Offramp
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I doubt all the people who get off the picc at finsbury are specifically
going
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
to a victoria line station.
I can imagine someone who lives at Cockfosters and works at Hyde Park
Corner travelling Cockfosters - Finsbury Park, FP (Vic) - Green Park and
walking.
Post by Basil Jet
Was that "can" supposed to be "can't"?
Waterloo is another, and the easiest route from Cockfosters involves
taking the Vic from Finny P to Oggy C.
If I'd got a seat on the Picc from Cockfosters, I'd stay seated in
reasonable comfort on the train all the way to Hyde Park corner, rather
than having to stand on a packed Victoria line train from Finsbury Park to
Green Park, and then having a 10 min walk to Hyde Park Corner (maybe in the
rain) that more than wasted the few minutes I'd saved standing on the
Victoria line train.
I suppose it depends if you value comfort over time. Personally I've got
better things to do than spend an extra 10-15 mins trundling through the
west end on the piccadilly line.
In that particular example, the comfortable option is also quicker. But
obviously it wouldn't always be the case.
You could always walk from the vic to the picc at green park though the poorly
designed layout at that station makes it far more of a slog than it should be
just to change lines.
No, it's a doddle: take the Vic escalator to the surface, come down on the
other escalator, and you're straight on to the Picc platforms.
b***@cylonHQ.com
2017-09-21 15:10:32 UTC
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On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 11:02:26 -0000 (UTC)
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
You could always walk from the vic to the picc at green park though the
poorly
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
designed layout at that station makes it far more of a slog than it should be
just to change lines.
No, it's a doddle: take the Vic escalator to the surface, come down on the
other escalator, and you're straight on to the Picc platforms.
Going up 1 escalator then down another is hardly a doddle for some people
especially if you have kids or stuff to carry. Also if you're the wrong
end of the vic platform you have a long walk.
Recliner
2017-09-21 15:20:46 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 11:02:26 -0000 (UTC)
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
You could always walk from the vic to the picc at green park though the
poorly
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
designed layout at that station makes it far more of a slog than it should be
just to change lines.
No, it's a doddle: take the Vic escalator to the surface, come down on the
other escalator, and you're straight on to the Picc platforms.
Going up 1 escalator then down another is hardly a doddle for some people
especially if you have kids or stuff to carry. Also if you're the wrong
end of the vic platform you have a long walk.
If you're using the escalator short-cut, you just need to be somewhere
towards the middle of the Victoria line train. In the other direction, you
want to be at the western end of the Picc train.

It's step-free, too.
Offramp
2017-09-21 18:12:46 UTC
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Um... are you a nutcase? The shortest step free route is the best. The underground tunnels are for tourists and nitwits.
David Cantrell
2017-09-21 11:51:09 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by David Cantrell
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Its got to the point where its just painful to use in the mornings and
unsurprisingly the vast majority of people bail out at Finsbury and get on
the victoria line putting added strain on that.
It couldn't be that people are changing trains because the Victoria line
goes where they want to go could it? That's the reason that *I* change
at Finsbury Park pretty much every time I use the Piccadilly line.
I doubt all the people who get off the picc at finsbury are specifically going
to a victoria line station.
I expect that quite a few will be intending to make a further change
onto one of the Overground branches at Highbury & Islington. And
bazillions of people use Oxford Circus and Victoria - Oxford Circus for
media and retail jobs, Victoria for lots of government jobs.
--
David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world

Today's previously unreported paraphilia is tomorrow's Internet sensation
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