Discussion:
Ex-Victoria line unit at Action Town
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Recliner
2018-04-04 13:21:00 UTC
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I came across this strange 2-car ex-Victoria Line unit in the siding
at Acton Town today:

<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157665392527907>

I see it's been discussed on District Dave's forum:
http://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/29230/67-stock-remaining-units

Despite the Victoria Line sign in one cab window, it seems they're
actually 72TS, and rather smart. From the discussion, it seems that
these surviving cars don't currently have a use.
Marland
2018-04-04 17:27:59 UTC
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Post by Recliner
I came across this strange 2-car ex-Victoria Line unit in the siding
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157665392527907>
http://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/29230/67-stock-remaining-units
Despite the Victoria Line sign in one cab window, it seems they're
actually 72TS, and rather smart. From the discussion, it seems that
these surviving cars don't currently have a use.
Downloaded my online edition of the Railway Magazine last night.
In a very similar photo the unit is described as a tunnel cleaning train
formed of 67and 72 stock.



GH
Recliner
2018-04-04 19:42:31 UTC
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Post by Marland
Post by Recliner
I came across this strange 2-car ex-Victoria Line unit in the siding
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157665392527907>
http://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/29230/67-stock-remaining-units
Despite the Victoria Line sign in one cab window, it seems they're
actually 72TS, and rather smart. From the discussion, it seems that
these surviving cars don't currently have a use.
Downloaded my online edition of the Railway Magazine last night.
In a very similar photo the unit is described as a tunnel cleaning train
formed of 67and 72 stock.
The District Dave thread says that the tunnel cleaning train has been
cancelled, so the cars are currently without a use.
Marland
2018-04-04 21:43:23 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Marland
Post by Recliner
I came across this strange 2-car ex-Victoria Line unit in the siding
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157665392527907>
http://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/29230/67-stock-remaining-units
Despite the Victoria Line sign in one cab window, it seems they're
actually 72TS, and rather smart. From the discussion, it seems that
these surviving cars don't currently have a use.
Downloaded my online edition of the Railway Magazine last night.
In a very similar photo the unit is described as a tunnel cleaning train
formed of 67and 72 stock.
The District Dave thread says that the tunnel cleaning train has been
cancelled, so the cars are currently without a use.
The RM photos says it was taken on March the 15th so it does seem a long
time for such an asset not too move, as District Dave is largely populated
by LU people I would think they would have the more accurate info.

GH
Recliner
2018-04-05 10:59:16 UTC
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Post by Marland
Post by Recliner
Post by Marland
Post by Recliner
I came across this strange 2-car ex-Victoria Line unit in the siding
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157665392527907>
http://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/29230/67-stock-remaining-units
Despite the Victoria Line sign in one cab window, it seems they're
actually 72TS, and rather smart. From the discussion, it seems that
these surviving cars don't currently have a use.
Downloaded my online edition of the Railway Magazine last night.
In a very similar photo the unit is described as a tunnel cleaning train
formed of 67and 72 stock.
The District Dave thread says that the tunnel cleaning train has been
cancelled, so the cars are currently without a use.
The RM photos says it was taken on March the 15th so it does seem a long
time for such an asset not too move, as District Dave is largely populated
by LU people I would think they would have the more accurate info.
I think this is another example of TfL's acute budget squeeze.
Presumably the tunnel cleaning train wasn't needed urgently, so it's
been cancelled, or at least deferred. Similarly, the extra Northern
and Jubilee Line trains have been cancelled.

TfL has been caught in a tight squeeze: ridership is unexpectedly
down, and combined with the fares freeze on all TfL services, means
that revenues are falling. The bus hopper fares can't have helped.

At the same time last-minute Crossrail technical problems have
increased the costs of completing it, before any new revenues come in.
And government subsidies for TfL's operations are coming to any end.
So TfL simultaneously has higher costs, lower revenues, and reduced
subsidies.

Things might start betting better once the Elizabeth line opens at the
end of the year (or will the opening be deferred?).
Jarle Hammen Knudsen
2018-04-05 14:03:08 UTC
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On Thu, 05 Apr 2018 11:59:16 +0100, Recliner
ridership is unexpectedly down
Why?
--
jhk
Recliner
2018-04-05 15:17:24 UTC
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Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
On Thu, 05 Apr 2018 11:59:16 +0100, Recliner
ridership is unexpectedly down
Why?
Obviously, nobody really knows, but it could be partly because of a
long-term trend not to go into the office as much, or because of the
frequent strikes on Southern, and London Bridge and Waterloo closures for
building work. If fewer people were getting into central London, fewer
people would be using the Tube.
Robin
2018-04-05 17:57:04 UTC
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Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
On Thu, 05 Apr 2018 11:59:16 +0100, Recliner
ridership is unexpectedly down
Why?
TfL's business plan in December had it was "largely owing to economic
factors affecting the whole of the UK, including the uncertainty of
Brexit." But the Assembly's Budget and Performance Committee were not
convinced TfL really knew what was going on, and noted it could also be
lifestyle changes - not just home working but things like online
shopping and more use of PHVs.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Paul Corfield
2018-04-06 13:49:38 UTC
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Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
On Thu, 05 Apr 2018 11:59:16 +0100, Recliner
ridership is unexpectedly down
Why?
--
jhk
TfL have yet to publish a definitive researched result. However the following have all been mentioned.

a) increased congestion has slowed bus services meaning people use them less.
b) risk averse "padded" bus timetables mean buses stop and "wait time" for minutes at a time to ensure operators achieve headway targets. Passengers get pissed off with this nonsense (who can blame them?) and stop using the buses.
c) people have transferred to cycles for some journeys.
d) the rise of Uber and similar services have reduced demand for night buses as has the introduction of the Night Tube.
e) the rise of online shopping is reducing shopping trips on public transport.
f) the rise of home delivery services for take away food is reducing trip numbers and people travelling to eat out in restaurants.
g) some employment sectors are seeing softening in demand and employment levels. My own view is this will get VASTLY worse due to Brexit.
h) changes in working patterns mean people commute less and work from home more. Also many jobs are insecure in terms of regular hours.
i) more people are self employed so don't have traditional commuting patterns.
j) the widespread availability of real time bus info has made it more obvious to people where there may be gaps in the service or the service is worse than people perceived it to be. People therefore don't use buses so much.
k) concern over jobs means people are reducing their discretionary spend on leisure activity thus reducing off peak public transport use.
l) years and years of austerity don't help encourage people to make frivolous use of public transport.
m) the increased use of contactless cards and paying per trip or charges per day from bank accounts has made people more aware of the cost of using publci transport. This may have discouraged people from making extra trips where they have not reached a daily cap level.

As you can see there is a mix of internal (to TfL) and external factors affecting how people use the system. It's little wonder if there is decline in amongst all those issues. Of course TfL's response is to cut bus services across London so bus usage will fall as people find a worse service.
--
Paul C
via Google
b***@cylonHQ.com
2018-04-06 14:03:57 UTC
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On Fri, 6 Apr 2018 06:49:38 -0700 (PDT)
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
On Thu, 05 Apr 2018 11:59:16 +0100, Recliner
=20
ridership is unexpectedly down
=20
Why?
=20
--=20
jhk
TfL have yet to publish a definitive researched result. However the followi=
ng have all been mentioned.
I'd also add:

n) bus stops that are too close together that mean buses are stopping every
20-30 seconds in some places and can make very slow progress.

Since TfL has made it clear it doesn't really give a monkeys about the elderly,
disabled or mothers with pushchairs by ditching bendy buses and its continued
use of unsuitable double deckers then it can hardly use them as an excuse for
having bus stops only a few hundred metres apart.
Arthur Figgis
2018-04-06 18:08:28 UTC
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Post by Paul Corfield
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
On Thu, 05 Apr 2018 11:59:16 +0100, Recliner
ridership is unexpectedly down
Why?
--
jhk
TfL have yet to publish a definitive researched result. However the following have all been mentioned.
a) increased congestion has slowed bus services meaning people use them less.
b) risk averse "padded" bus timetables mean buses stop and "wait time" for minutes at a time to ensure operators achieve headway targets. Passengers get pissed off with this nonsense (who can blame them?) and stop using the buses.
b.i) Those *&^%#@ announcements, although fortunately they have now gone.
b.ii) All the bus passengers being wiped out in freak "Not holding on
after the bus has already started moving" accidents once the *&^%#@
announcements stopped.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Paul Corfield
2018-04-06 13:35:41 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Marland
Post by Recliner
Post by Marland
Post by Recliner
I came across this strange 2-car ex-Victoria Line unit in the siding
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157665392527907>
http://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/29230/67-stock-remaining-units
Despite the Victoria Line sign in one cab window, it seems they're
actually 72TS, and rather smart. From the discussion, it seems that
these surviving cars don't currently have a use.
Downloaded my online edition of the Railway Magazine last night.
In a very similar photo the unit is described as a tunnel cleaning train
formed of 67and 72 stock.
The District Dave thread says that the tunnel cleaning train has been
cancelled, so the cars are currently without a use.
The RM photos says it was taken on March the 15th so it does seem a long
time for such an asset not too move, as District Dave is largely populated
by LU people I would think they would have the more accurate info.
I think this is another example of TfL's acute budget squeeze.
Presumably the tunnel cleaning train wasn't needed urgently, so it's
been cancelled, or at least deferred. Similarly, the extra Northern
and Jubilee Line trains have been cancelled.
TfL has been caught in a tight squeeze: ridership is unexpectedly
down, and combined with the fares freeze on all TfL services, means
that revenues are falling. The bus hopper fares can't have helped.
At the same time last-minute Crossrail technical problems have
increased the costs of completing it, before any new revenues come in.
And government subsidies for TfL's operations are coming to any end.
So TfL simultaneously has higher costs, lower revenues, and reduced
subsidies.
Things might start betting better once the Elizabeth line opens at the
end of the year (or will the opening be deferred?).
I don't think it's any of those issues actually. As you will know the old Tunnel Cleaning Train was very unreliable and caught fire. LU put alternative measures in place to keep tunnel dirt and dust under control. However the issues about dust levels and potential harm to passengers have never gone away. A decision was therefore taken years ago to create a new tunnel cleaning train. This involved the use of old Vic Line cars. I believe, but am happy to be corrected, that the eventual train (years late btw) was severely underpowered and not able to work properly. Now how on earth the programme took so long to create an ineffective train is anyone's guess. I believe a decision was taken not to put any further money into the Tunnel Cleaning Train but more on the basis of it possibly being an "open ended" financial hole rather than there being a fixed budget to achieve a defined end. This was not so much due to the worsening financial situation TfL faces now but a simple acceptance that it was best to stop the project.

Given LU's tunnel sizes there is not really the prospect of buying an "off the peg" new tunnel cleaning train from an established manufacturer. Clearly the prospects of such a purchase, even if possible, are lower than zero given the lack of money. However I expect the underlying issues have not gone away and politicians and others will keep asking questions about air quality and dust levels.
--
Paul C
via Google
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