Discussion:
RIP Boris Bus
(too old to reply)
Roland Perry
2017-01-02 20:44:29 UTC
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<http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sadiq-khan-london-mayor-
boris-bus-scrap-boris-johnson-legacy-double-decker-routemasters-
a7505391.html>
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-01-02 22:15:05 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
<http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sadiq-khan-london-mayor-
boris-bus-scrap-boris-johnson-legacy-double-decker-routemasters-
a7505391.html>
The headline is a bit of an exaggeration, and it's really a non-story on a
quiet news day: we already knew no more of them were to be ordered, and
Sadiq isn't actually getting rid of the delivered fleet.
D A Stocks
2017-01-03 00:37:35 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
<http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sadiq-khan-london-mayor-
boris-bus-scrap-boris-johnson-legacy-double-decker-routemasters-
a7505391.html>
The headline is a bit of an exaggeration, and it's really a non-story on a
quiet news day: we already knew no more of them were to be ordered, and
Sadiq isn't actually getting rid of the delivered fleet.
I am assuming London is stuck with the NRMs until they are scrapped. At
least the bendies were a standard design that could be sold to other UK bus
operators; we have some of them in Brighton & Hove.

--
DAS
s***@potato.field
2017-01-03 09:36:45 UTC
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On Tue, 3 Jan 2017 00:37:35 -0000
er.org...
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
<http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sadiq-khan-london-mayor-
boris-bus-scrap-boris-johnson-legacy-double-decker-routemasters-
a7505391.html>
The headline is a bit of an exaggeration, and it's really a non-story on a
quiet news day: we already knew no more of them were to be ordered, and
Sadiq isn't actually getting rid of the delivered fleet.
I am assuming London is stuck with the NRMs until they are scrapped. At
least the bendies were a standard design that could be sold to other UK bus
operators; we have some of them in Brighton & Hove.
It does seem to be history repeating itself. Boris didn't like the bendies
giving some spurious nonsense about them being a danger to cyclists (or more
likely because they were Kens idea) and now Kahn has decided the roastmasters
are a poor choice. Which to be fair, they are.

I suppose if you're mayor of western europes largest city but you really don't
have much power, buses seem to be the bit where you can leave your legacy.
--
Spud
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-01-03 13:18:22 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
It does seem to be history repeating itself. Boris didn't like the bendies
giving some spurious nonsense about them being a danger to cyclists
(or more likely because they were Kens idea) and now Kahn has decided
the roastmasters are a poor choice. Which to be fair, they are.
Speaking as a cyclist I hated the bendies. They were so long they were very
hard to navigate round and they kept cutting in on one.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
s***@potato.field
2017-01-03 15:31:19 UTC
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On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 07:18:22 -0600
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
It does seem to be history repeating itself. Boris didn't like the bendies
giving some spurious nonsense about them being a danger to cyclists
(or more likely because they were Kens idea) and now Kahn has decided
the roastmasters are a poor choice. Which to be fair, they are.
Speaking as a cyclist I hated the bendies. They were so long they were very
hard to navigate round and they kept cutting in on one.
So treat them like an HGV. Problem solved. They have them all over europe
without thousands of dead cyclists littering the roads. As someone who has
taken a pushchair on a double decker on number of occasions its a fecking
nightmare - half the bus is out of bounds. God knows what the disabled think of
the bloody things. Quite why we're so wedded to having 2 storey vehicles in
this country is anyones guess.
--
Spud
Someone Somewhere
2017-01-03 16:11:43 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 07:18:22 -0600
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
It does seem to be history repeating itself. Boris didn't like the bendies
giving some spurious nonsense about them being a danger to cyclists
(or more likely because they were Kens idea) and now Kahn has decided
the roastmasters are a poor choice. Which to be fair, they are.
Speaking as a cyclist I hated the bendies. They were so long they were very
hard to navigate round and they kept cutting in on one.
So treat them like an HGV. Problem solved. They have them all over europe
without thousands of dead cyclists littering the roads. As someone who has
taken a pushchair on a double decker on number of occasions its a fecking
nightmare - half the bus is out of bounds. God knows what the disabled think of
the bloody things. Quite why we're so wedded to having 2 storey vehicles in
this country is anyones guess.
Wasn't the problem more (from my experience) that the road design in
London is unsuited to large numbers of such long vehicles - ie the
distance between traffic lights and other obstacles to road progress was
not a reasonable multiple of bendies long so if (when!) the service
bunched up or many routes served a road then they caused more congestion
than would reasonably be expected or presented an impediment to progress
- whether that be themselves, other motorists or pedestrians.

That, allied to their reputation as a "free bus" and the consequential
crush loading on certain services (25 anyone?), was what made them
undesirable than the supposed risk to cyclists (which was unproven) and
their flammability (which was fixed and never caused an injury anyway).
s***@potato.field
2017-01-03 16:24:18 UTC
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On Tue, 3 Jan 2017 16:11:43 +0000
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by s***@potato.field
So treat them like an HGV. Problem solved. They have them all over europe
without thousands of dead cyclists littering the roads. As someone who has
taken a pushchair on a double decker on number of occasions its a fecking
nightmare - half the bus is out of bounds. God knows what the disabled think
of
Post by s***@potato.field
the bloody things. Quite why we're so wedded to having 2 storey vehicles in
this country is anyones guess.
Wasn't the problem more (from my experience) that the road design in
London is unsuited to large numbers of such long vehicles - ie the
distance between traffic lights and other obstacles to road progress was
not a reasonable multiple of bendies long so if (when!) the service
bunched up or many routes served a road then they caused more congestion
than would reasonably be expected or presented an impediment to progress
- whether that be themselves, other motorists or pedestrians.
Possibly. OTOH they carried ~150 passengers compared to about 80 on a DD and
they weren't close to being twice as long, so they carried more passengers per
metre of road space used.
Post by Someone Somewhere
That, allied to their reputation as a "free bus" and the consequential
crush loading on certain services (25 anyone?), was what made them
More random ticket inspections would have sorted that problem. You don't get
mass fare evasion on the gateless DLR because they do frequent checks. But of
course that means hiring people and TfL don't like doing that. Unless its for
management positions of course.
Post by Someone Somewhere
undesirable than the supposed risk to cyclists (which was unproven) and
Quite so. Just lots of lycra louts whining when they found out that riding up
the inside of an articulated vehicle turning left turned out to be a bad idea.
Who knew? (Well, everyone with some basic common sense which excludes a lot
of cyclists it seems).
Post by Someone Somewhere
their flammability (which was fixed and never caused an injury anyway).
And a lot of them ended up happily working in the heat in Malta. Ironic.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-01-03 17:01:14 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 3 Jan 2017 16:11:43 +0000
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by s***@potato.field
So treat them like an HGV. Problem solved. They have them all over europe
without thousands of dead cyclists littering the roads. As someone who has
taken a pushchair on a double decker on number of occasions its a fecking
nightmare - half the bus is out of bounds. God knows what the disabled think
of
Post by s***@potato.field
the bloody things. Quite why we're so wedded to having 2 storey vehicles in
this country is anyones guess.
Wasn't the problem more (from my experience) that the road design in
London is unsuited to large numbers of such long vehicles - ie the
distance between traffic lights and other obstacles to road progress was
not a reasonable multiple of bendies long so if (when!) the service
bunched up or many routes served a road then they caused more congestion
than would reasonably be expected or presented an impediment to progress
- whether that be themselves, other motorists or pedestrians.
Possibly. OTOH they carried ~150 passengers compared to about 80 on a DD and
they weren't close to being twice as long, so they carried more passengers per
metre of road space used.
Post by Someone Somewhere
That, allied to their reputation as a "free bus" and the consequential
crush loading on certain services (25 anyone?), was what made them
More random ticket inspections would have sorted that problem. You don't get
mass fare evasion on the gateless DLR because they do frequent checks. But of
course that means hiring people and TfL don't like doing that. Unless its for
management positions of course.
Post by Someone Somewhere
undesirable than the supposed risk to cyclists (which was unproven) and
Quite so. Just lots of lycra louts whining when they found out that riding up
the inside of an articulated vehicle turning left turned out to be a bad idea.
Who knew? (Well, everyone with some basic common sense which excludes a lot
of cyclists it seems).
Post by Someone Somewhere
their flammability (which was fixed and never caused an injury anyway).
And a lot of them ended up happily working in the heat in Malta. Ironic.
Not happily. They had more fires and were soon taken off the road. They've
new been sent to somewhere hotter still: Sudan.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/bendy-buses-sent-from-london-to-malta-taken-off-their-roads-after-three-burst-into-flames-8788929.html

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20140218/local/bendy-buses-to-be-shipped-to-sudan.507334http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20140218/local/bendy-buses-to-be-shipped-to-sudan.507334
Neil Williams
2017-01-03 23:17:43 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Not happily. They had more fires and were soon taken off the road. They've
new been sent to somewhere hotter still: Sudan.
Luton Airport also seem to have a number of them, with Arriva
interiors, and modified to have doors on both sides.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
s***@potato.field
2017-01-04 10:34:41 UTC
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On Tue, 3 Jan 2017 17:01:14 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
And a lot of them ended up happily working in the heat in Malta. Ironic.
Not happily. They had more fires and were soon taken off the road. They've
new been sent to somewhere hotter still: Sudan.
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20140218/local/bendy-buses-to-be-ship
ed-to-sudan.507334http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20140218/local/bend
-buses-to-be-shipped-to-sudan.507334
"Experts concluded that the fires were caused by the conditions the buses were
subjected to on Malta’s roads, as well as an element of poor maintenance."

I'm guessing the cooling wasn't designed for a hot country and coupled with
cheapskate maintenance and presumably no fix being applied before they were
shipped from London...

Running them in Africa, what could possibly go wrong? Still, the local islamist
nutters may see an opportunity there with self immolating buses.
--
Spud
Someone Somewhere
2017-01-04 12:10:33 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 3 Jan 2017 17:01:14 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
And a lot of them ended up happily working in the heat in Malta. Ironic.
Not happily. They had more fires and were soon taken off the road. They've
new been sent to somewhere hotter still: Sudan.
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20140218/local/bendy-buses-to-be-ship
ed-to-sudan.507334http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20140218/local/bend
-buses-to-be-shipped-to-sudan.507334
"Experts concluded that the fires were caused by the conditions the buses were
subjected to on Malta’s roads, as well as an element of poor maintenance."
I'm guessing the cooling wasn't designed for a hot country and coupled with
cheapskate maintenance and presumably no fix being applied before they were
shipped from London...
Running them in Africa, what could possibly go wrong? Still, the local islamist
nutters may see an opportunity there with self immolating buses.
I also note the following concluding line:

In offering the buses for sale, Transport Malta had laid down that they
cannot be returned to Malta’s roads, because of the congestion they caused.

So it's not just London where bendy buses are unwelcome due to congestion...
s***@potato.field
2017-01-04 12:36:37 UTC
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On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 12:10:33 +0000
Post by Someone Somewhere
In offering the buses for sale, Transport Malta had laid down that they
cannot be returned to Malta’s roads, because of the congestion they caused.
So it's not just London where bendy buses are unwelcome due to congestion...
What causes more congestion, 2 double deckers or one bendy? I'm guessing you
don't visit Oxford street very often.
--
Spud
Neil Williams
2017-01-04 12:40:22 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
What causes more congestion, 2 double deckers or one bendy? I'm guessing you
don't visit Oxford street very often.
Oxford Street's transport arrangement is a joke. In a civilised
country it'd have a single tram route and no taxis.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
s***@potato.field
2017-01-04 16:44:17 UTC
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On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 12:40:22 +0000
Post by Neil Williams
Post by s***@potato.field
What causes more congestion, 2 double deckers or one bendy? I'm guessing you
don't visit Oxford street very often.
Oxford Street's transport arrangement is a joke. In a civilised
country it'd have a single tram route and no taxis.
Can't disagree with that.
--
Spud
Robin9
2017-01-05 23:49:07 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
What causes more congestion, 2 double deckers or one bendy? I'
guessing yo
don't visit Oxford street very often.
Oxford Street's transport arrangement is a joke. In a civilised
country it'd have a single tram route and no taxis
Neil
https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/west-end-bus-changes
--
Robin9
s***@potato.field
2017-01-06 10:54:30 UTC
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On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 00:49:07 +0100
https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/west-end-bus-changes/
"London is growing, with an estimated 10 million people expected to live here
by the early 2030s"
10 million already live in commuting distance. Presumably they mean within
the london boroughs - well good luck with that given the lack of housing.
Hopefully some politician will find a pair of balls after Brexit and actually
do something about mass immigration tho given a large proportion of immigration
is from non EU countries which we do have control over yet do nothing about
I won't hold my breath.
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-01-06 11:03:59 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
"London is growing, with an estimated 10 million people expected to live here
by the early 2030s"
10 million already live in commuting distance. Presumably they mean within
the london boroughs
Isn't "commuting distance" usually reckoned to be an hour from a London
Rail Terminus? Although 10m is far too small for that.
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-01-06 11:13:58 UTC
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On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 11:03:59 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
"London is growing, with an estimated 10 million people expected to live here
by the early 2030s"
10 million already live in commuting distance. Presumably they mean within
the london boroughs
Isn't "commuting distance" usually reckoned to be an hour from a London
Rail Terminus? Although 10m is far too small for that.
Don't know, but isn't there something like 20-25 million in london and the home
counties?

--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-01-06 12:23:13 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
"London is growing, with an estimated 10 million people expected to live here
by the early 2030s"
10 million already live in commuting distance. Presumably they mean within
the london boroughs
Isn't "commuting distance" usually reckoned to be an hour from a London
Rail Terminus? Although 10m is far too small for that.
Don't know,
The 1hr is true.
Post by s***@potato.field
but isn't there something like 20-25 million in london and the home
counties?
8.5m in Great London today, so the extra 1.5m will be easily mopped up
by the boroughs which encircle it.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-01-06 19:45:07 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
"London is growing, with an estimated 10 million people expected to
live here by the early 2030s"
10 million already live in commuting distance. Presumably they mean
within the london boroughs
Isn't "commuting distance" usually reckoned to be an hour from a London
Rail Terminus? Although 10m is far too small for that.
Don't know,
The 1hr is true.
Ely within 1 hour?
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
but isn't there something like 20-25 million in london and the home
counties?
8.5m in Great London today, so the extra 1.5m will be easily mopped
up by the boroughs which encircle it.
I assume the discussion is about the Greater London population. Hopefully
Spud won't get his wish if he wants enough people to be working to pay for
his pension.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2017-01-07 08:49:28 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
"London is growing, with an estimated 10 million people expected to
live here by the early 2030s"
10 million already live in commuting distance. Presumably they mean
within the london boroughs
Isn't "commuting distance" usually reckoned to be an hour from a London
Rail Terminus? Although 10m is far too small for that.
Don't know,
The 1hr is true.
Ely within 1 hour?
Of Cambridge, yes. And while there are London commuters from Ely and
further north, it's not a huge number. Ely generates 450k trips a year
to London[1] (a tenth of that from Cambridge). That's all passengers,
and my finger in the wind for Ely is that less than half will be
commuters.
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
but isn't there something like 20-25 million in london and the home
counties?
8.5m in Great London today, so the extra 1.5m will be easily mopped
up by the boroughs which encircle it.
I assume the discussion is about the Greater London population. Hopefully
Spud won't get his wish if he wants enough people to be working to pay for
his pension.
[1] That's Kings Cross plus Liverpool St plus Thameslink core
destinations.
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-01-10 09:55:00 UTC
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On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 13:45:07 -0600
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
"London is growing, with an estimated 10 million people expected to
live here by the early 2030s"
10 million already live in commuting distance. Presumably they mean
within the london boroughs
Isn't "commuting distance" usually reckoned to be an hour from a London
Rail Terminus? Although 10m is far too small for that.
Don't know,
The 1hr is true.
Ely within 1 hour?
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
but isn't there something like 20-25 million in london and the home
counties?
8.5m in Great London today, so the extra 1.5m will be easily mopped
up by the boroughs which encircle it.
I assume the discussion is about the Greater London population. Hopefully
Spud won't get his wish if he wants enough people to be working to pay for
his pension.
I pay for a private pension, I don't require the next generation to do it for me
thanks. Also that whole paying pensions argument falls apart since it appears
to require a constantly increasing working age population which is completely
unsustainable, so better to bite the bullet now and halt population growth
rather than wreck the country then STILL have to deal with the problem of
pensions at a later date anyway.
--
Spud
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-01-10 11:44:44 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 13:45:07 -0600
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
I assume the discussion is about the Greater London population. Hopefully
Spud won't get his wish if he wants enough people to be working to pay
for his pension.
I pay for a private pension, I don't require the next generation to do it
for me thanks. Also that whole paying pensions argument falls apart since
it appears to require a constantly increasing working age population which
is completely unsustainable, so better to bite the bullet now and halt
population growth rather than wreck the country then STILL have to deal
with the problem of pensions at a later date anyway.
You've spotted a weakness which applies a lot more widely than to pensions
but it's still the only way your state pension will be paid.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
s***@potato.field
2017-01-10 11:51:35 UTC
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On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 05:44:44 -0600
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 13:45:07 -0600
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
I assume the discussion is about the Greater London population. Hopefully
Spud won't get his wish if he wants enough people to be working to pay
for his pension.
I pay for a private pension, I don't require the next generation to do it
for me thanks. Also that whole paying pensions argument falls apart since
it appears to require a constantly increasing working age population which
is completely unsustainable, so better to bite the bullet now and halt
population growth rather than wreck the country then STILL have to deal
with the problem of pensions at a later date anyway.
You've spotted a weakness which applies a lot more widely than to pensions
but it's still the only way your state pension will be paid.
The age of retirement is slowly being raised so that should solve the problem
at least partially. More workers in the job market without requiring immigrants
and less demand for pensions. Win win.
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-01-10 13:12:46 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
I assume the discussion is about the Greater London population. Hopefully
Spud won't get his wish if he wants enough people to be working to pay
for his pension.
I pay for a private pension, I don't require the next generation to do it
for me thanks. Also that whole paying pensions argument falls apart since
it appears to require a constantly increasing working age population which
is completely unsustainable, so better to bite the bullet now and halt
population growth rather than wreck the country then STILL have to deal
with the problem of pensions at a later date anyway.
You've spotted a weakness which applies a lot more widely than to pensions
but it's still the only way your state pension will be paid.
The age of retirement is slowly being raised so that should solve the problem
at least partially. More workers in the job market without requiring immigrants
How many redundant Southern Guards, aged 70+ want to work in all
weathers picking crops in the Fens?
Post by s***@potato.field
and less demand for pensions. Win win.
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-01-10 13:51:43 UTC
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On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 13:12:46 +0000
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
I assume the discussion is about the Greater London population. Hopefully
Spud won't get his wish if he wants enough people to be working to pay
for his pension.
I pay for a private pension, I don't require the next generation to do it
for me thanks. Also that whole paying pensions argument falls apart since
it appears to require a constantly increasing working age population which
is completely unsustainable, so better to bite the bullet now and halt
population growth rather than wreck the country then STILL have to deal
with the problem of pensions at a later date anyway.
You've spotted a weakness which applies a lot more widely than to pensions
but it's still the only way your state pension will be paid.
The age of retirement is slowly being raised so that should solve the problem
at least partially. More workers in the job market without requiring
immigrants
How many redundant Southern Guards, aged 70+ want to work in all
weathers picking crops in the Fens?
If that was the only place immigrants were taking jobs then that would be a
valid question, but as you know - it isn't. I'm currently sitting in an office
Post by s***@potato.field
60% immigrants, none of them doing a job that couldn't have been done by
a native. And in fact 1 position was illegally filled since it wasn't
advertised in the UK before a foreign director found someone in his own country
to fill it for a pittance salary.
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-01-10 14:15:40 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by s***@potato.field
The age of retirement is slowly being raised so that should solve the problem
at least partially. More workers in the job market without requiring
immigrants
How many redundant Southern Guards, aged 70+ want to work in all
weathers picking crops in the Fens?
If that was the only place immigrants were taking jobs then that would be a
valid question, but as you know - it isn't.
It's the jobs which tipped the Brexit balance among voters.
Post by s***@potato.field
I'm currently sitting in an office 60% immigrants, none of them doing
a job that couldn't have been done by a native. And in fact 1 position
was illegally filled since it wasn't advertised in the UK before a
foreign director found someone in his own country to fill it for a
pittance salary.
That's extraordinary. Either a very small office and that's six out of
ten by some fluke, or as you hint a foreign-owned firm preferring its
nationals. And that could of course bring with them skills that a native
*didn't* have.
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-01-10 14:31:45 UTC
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On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 14:15:40 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
If that was the only place immigrants were taking jobs then that would be a
valid question, but as you know - it isn't.
It's the jobs which tipped the Brexit balance among voters.
Yes, but I doubt it was particularly vegetable picking jobs.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
I'm currently sitting in an office 60% immigrants, none of them doing
a job that couldn't have been done by a native. And in fact 1 position
was illegally filled since it wasn't advertised in the UK before a
foreign director found someone in his own country to fill it for a
pittance salary.
That's extraordinary. Either a very small office and that's six out of
Not in London it isn't. Most IT depts I've worked in in the last 10 years
have been 30-60% foreign nationals and the proportion has slowly been rising
over the years.
Post by Roland Perry
ten by some fluke, or as you hint a foreign-owned firm preferring its
nationals. And that could of course bring with them skills that a native
*didn't* have.
The majority of the directors are foreign and seem to prefer to hire
immigrants. I'm guessing because they're cheaper.

The last place I worked was a french company and a lot of jobs didn't get
created in the UK, they got "transfered" from france and so did the incumbent
who had been doing it for a couple of days after being hired in france. But
it still looks like a new UK job. Win!

Naturally politicians and Guardian readers are either too pig ignorant or out
of touch to realise this sort of thing is going on all over the place.
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-01-10 15:08:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
If that was the only place immigrants were taking jobs then that would be a
valid question, but as you know - it isn't.
It's the jobs which tipped the Brexit balance among voters.
Yes, but I doubt it was particularly vegetable picking jobs.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
I'm currently sitting in an office 60% immigrants, none of them doing
a job that couldn't have been done by a native. And in fact 1 position
was illegally filled since it wasn't advertised in the UK before a
foreign director found someone in his own country to fill it for a
pittance salary.
That's extraordinary. Either a very small office and that's six out of
Not in London it isn't. Most IT depts I've worked in in the last 10 years
have been 30-60% foreign nationals and the proportion has slowly been rising
over the years.
Post by Roland Perry
ten by some fluke, or as you hint a foreign-owned firm preferring its
nationals. And that could of course bring with them skills that a native
*didn't* have.
The majority of the directors are foreign and seem to prefer to hire
immigrants. I'm guessing because they're cheaper.
The last place I worked was a french company and a lot of jobs didn't get
created in the UK, they got "transfered" from france and so did the incumbent
who had been doing it for a couple of days after being hired in france. But
it still looks like a new UK job. Win!
Naturally politicians and Guardian readers are either too pig ignorant or out
of touch to realise this sort of thing is going on all over the place.
Of course it happens a bit, but with only 12% of employees foreign
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.

Source: Labour Force Survey 2015, Q1-Q4.

Of course, our labour pool will be flooded by British expats sent
packing after freedom of movement in Europe ends.
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-01-10 16:14:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 15:08:03 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
The last place I worked was a french company and a lot of jobs didn't get
created in the UK, they got "transfered" from france and so did the incumbent
who had been doing it for a couple of days after being hired in france. But
it still looks like a new UK job. Win!
Naturally politicians and Guardian readers are either too pig ignorant or out
of touch to realise this sort of thing is going on all over the place.
Of course it happens a bit, but with only 12% of employees foreign
More than a bit and I wouldn't use the word "only" when saying 12% of the
labour force is foreign.
Post by Roland Perry
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.
I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.
Post by Roland Perry
Of course, our labour pool will be flooded by British expats sent
packing after freedom of movement in Europe ends.
They always have the option of going native and getting a passport of their
country of residence. Since they seem to believe life is better than in the UK
one has to wonder why they don't just do that anyway unless its simply to be
able to fly back and get free NHS treatment or some equally cynical reason.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-01-10 16:46:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 15:08:03 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
The last place I worked was a french company and a lot of jobs didn't get
created in the UK, they got "transfered" from france and so did the incumbent
who had been doing it for a couple of days after being hired in france. But
it still looks like a new UK job. Win!
Naturally politicians and Guardian readers are either too pig ignorant or out
of touch to realise this sort of thing is going on all over the place.
Of course it happens a bit, but with only 12% of employees foreign
More than a bit and I wouldn't use the word "only" when saying 12% of the
labour force is foreign.
Post by Roland Perry
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.
I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.
Post by Roland Perry
Of course, our labour pool will be flooded by British expats sent
packing after freedom of movement in Europe ends.
They always have the option of going native and getting a passport of their
country of residence. Since they seem to believe life is better than in the UK
one has to wonder why they don't just do that anyway unless its simply to be
able to fly back and get free NHS treatment or some equally cynical reason.
Why would they fly back to the UK for NHS treatment? They're entitled to
use the local health services, which are often better than the NHS, on the
same terms as the locals.

Many of the expats work for the EU in Brussels, and although some might
want to stay on after the UK leaves, it sems that working for the EU in
Brussels doesn't qualify them for Belgian citizenship on the basis of
residence. They need to have been paying Belgian tax for that.
s***@potato.field
2017-01-10 16:53:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 16:46:37 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
They always have the option of going native and getting a passport of their
country of residence. Since they seem to believe life is better than in the
UK
Post by s***@potato.field
one has to wonder why they don't just do that anyway unless its simply to be
able to fly back and get free NHS treatment or some equally cynical reason.
Why would they fly back to the UK for NHS treatment? They're entitled to
use the local health services, which are often better than the NHS, on the
same terms as the locals.
Maybe, but I can't think of many other reasons not to get a local passport.
Post by Recliner
Many of the expats work for the EU in Brussels, and although some might
want to stay on after the UK leaves, it sems that working for the EU in
Brussels doesn't qualify them for Belgian citizenship on the basis of
residence. They need to have been paying Belgian tax for that.
Quite why anyone would want to live in Belgium beats me anyway. France or
spain I can understand, but Belgium? Ugh.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-01-10 17:02:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 16:46:37 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
They always have the option of going native and getting a passport of their
country of residence. Since they seem to believe life is better than in the
UK
Post by s***@potato.field
one has to wonder why they don't just do that anyway unless its simply to be
able to fly back and get free NHS treatment or some equally cynical reason.
Why would they fly back to the UK for NHS treatment? They're entitled to
use the local health services, which are often better than the NHS, on the
same terms as the locals.
Maybe, but I can't think of many other reasons not to get a local passport.
Perhaps they intend to return one day?
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
Many of the expats work for the EU in Brussels, and although some might
want to stay on after the UK leaves, it sems that working for the EU in
Brussels doesn't qualify them for Belgian citizenship on the basis of
residence. They need to have been paying Belgian tax for that.
Quite why anyone would want to live in Belgium beats me anyway. France or
spain I can understand, but Belgium? Ugh.
Once they get a Belgian passport, they could live and work in any EU
country.
Roland Perry
2017-01-10 20:38:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
They always have the option of going native and getting a passport of their
country of residence. Since they seem to believe life is better than in the
UK
Post by s***@potato.field
one has to wonder why they don't just do that anyway unless its simply to be
able to fly back and get free NHS treatment or some equally cynical reason.
Why would they fly back to the UK for NHS treatment? They're entitled to
use the local health services, which are often better than the NHS, on the
same terms as the locals.
Maybe, but I can't think of many other reasons not to get a local passport.
Because currently *any* EU passport is equally as good.
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-01-11 09:27:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:38:36 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
They always have the option of going native and getting a passport of their
country of residence. Since they seem to believe life is better than in the
UK
Post by s***@potato.field
one has to wonder why they don't just do that anyway unless its simply to
be
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
able to fly back and get free NHS treatment or some equally cynical reason.
Why would they fly back to the UK for NHS treatment? They're entitled to
use the local health services, which are often better than the NHS, on the
same terms as the locals.
Maybe, but I can't think of many other reasons not to get a local passport.
Because currently *any* EU passport is equally as good.
Not if you want to vote. And if you live in a country I'd assume you'd want
to take part in the political process. Or maybe thats just me. There's probably
state pension issues too.
--
Spud
tim...
2017-01-11 11:55:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:38:36 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
They always have the option of going native and getting a passport of their
country of residence. Since they seem to believe life is better than in the
UK
Post by s***@potato.field
one has to wonder why they don't just do that anyway unless its simply to
be
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
able to fly back and get free NHS treatment or some equally cynical reason.
Why would they fly back to the UK for NHS treatment? They're entitled to
use the local health services, which are often better than the NHS, on the
same terms as the locals.
Maybe, but I can't think of many other reasons not to get a local passport.
Because currently *any* EU passport is equally as good.
Not if you want to vote. And if you live in a country I'd assume you'd want
to take part in the political process. Or maybe thats just me.
I got to vote in local elections

Germany is (I think) quite unique here in that, for sizable towns, they will
have a constituency of "foreign" residents who get to vote for their own
special choice of councilor who targets their manifesto at that minority
interest.

I also got a vote in EU elections. But I decided that it was pointless
using it.

I had so little knowledge of the leanings of German political parties that I
didn't have a clue which one comes closest to representing my specific
Political ideal - and I didn't believe that they would be prepared to spend
the effort to give me the information if I asked them (I actually had this
conversation with one of the canvassers in the town centre, and he agreed
with me - that they wouldn't find it worth their while to translate all
their literate into English for the small number of voters in the
constituency)

I suspect voting for a party at national elections has the same problem
Post by s***@potato.field
There's probably
state pension issues too.
No, that's purely qualified for by years of contribution

tim
s***@potato.field
2017-01-11 12:04:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 11:55:46 -0000
Post by tim...
Political ideal - and I didn't believe that they would be prepared to spend
the effort to give me the information if I asked them (I actually had this
conversation with one of the canvassers in the town centre, and he agreed
with me - that they wouldn't find it worth their while to translate all
their literate into English for the small number of voters in the
constituency)
If you're living in a foreign country you should learn the language and not
expect the locals to translate their literature into your language because
you're too lazy to learn theirs. Something councils in this country should
consider instead of wasting council tax translating documents into whatever
3rd world languages the local immigrants speak.
--
Spud
tim...
2017-01-11 13:34:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 11:55:46 -0000
Post by tim...
Political ideal - and I didn't believe that they would be prepared to spend
the effort to give me the information if I asked them (I actually had this
conversation with one of the canvassers in the town centre, and he agreed
with me - that they wouldn't find it worth their while to translate all
their literate into English for the small number of voters in the
constituency)
If you're living in a foreign country you should learn the language and not
expect the locals to translate their literature into your language because
you're too lazy to learn theirs.
Some people are just no good at learning foreign languages

after 200 hours (and that is a lot) of lessons I was still finding spoken
German incomprehensible

tim
Basil Jet
2017-01-11 15:06:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 11:55:46 -0000
Post by tim...
Political ideal - and I didn't believe that they would be prepared to spend
the effort to give me the information if I asked them (I actually had this
conversation with one of the canvassers in the town centre, and he agreed
with me - that they wouldn't find it worth their while to translate all
their literate into English for the small number of voters in the
constituency)
If you're living in a foreign country you should learn the language and not
expect the locals to translate their literature into your language because
you're too lazy to learn theirs.
Some people are just no good at learning foreign languages
after 200 hours (and that is a lot) of lessons I was still finding
spoken German incomprehensible
Zay heff vays off mecking you tock,
but zay heff no vay off mecking you understand.
s***@potato.field
2017-01-11 15:24:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 13:34:25 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 11:55:46 -0000
Post by tim...
Political ideal - and I didn't believe that they would be prepared to spend
the effort to give me the information if I asked them (I actually had this
conversation with one of the canvassers in the town centre, and he agreed
with me - that they wouldn't find it worth their while to translate all
their literate into English for the small number of voters in the
constituency)
If you're living in a foreign country you should learn the language and not
expect the locals to translate their literature into your language because
you're too lazy to learn theirs.
Some people are just no good at learning foreign languages
after 200 hours (and that is a lot) of lessons I was still finding spoken
German incomprehensible
To be fair I found german hard too. French was a lot easier and I managed to
get myself up to a basic conversational level just by teaching myself on the
tube ride in the mornings. Perhaps you should have picked a different country
to live in?
--
Spud
Basil Jet
2017-01-11 15:29:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 13:34:25 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 11:55:46 -0000
Post by tim...
Political ideal - and I didn't believe that they would be prepared to spend
the effort to give me the information if I asked them (I actually had this
conversation with one of the canvassers in the town centre, and he agreed
with me - that they wouldn't find it worth their while to translate all
their literate into English for the small number of voters in the
constituency)
If you're living in a foreign country you should learn the language and not
expect the locals to translate their literature into your language because
you're too lazy to learn theirs.
Some people are just no good at learning foreign languages
after 200 hours (and that is a lot) of lessons I was still finding spoken
German incomprehensible
To be fair I found german hard too. French was a lot easier and I managed to
get myself up to a basic conversational level just by teaching myself on the
tube ride in the mornings. Perhaps you should have picked a different country
to live in?
Amazing. I loved German but hated French. French isn't even a language,
its just a load of nasal sounds blurred into each other. French
keyboards have a big apostrophe bar where the space bar should be.
Roland Perry
2017-01-11 15:50:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by tim...
Some people are just no good at learning foreign languages
after 200 hours (and that is a lot) of lessons I was still finding spoken
German incomprehensible
To be fair I found german hard too. French was a lot easier and I managed to
get myself up to a basic conversational level just by teaching myself on the
tube ride in the mornings. Perhaps you should have picked a different country
to live in?
Difficulty in picking up foreign languages (or even English when an
infant) is one of the classic symptoms of even high-functioning autism
sufferers.
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-01-11 16:11:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 15:50:46 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by tim...
Some people are just no good at learning foreign languages
after 200 hours (and that is a lot) of lessons I was still finding spoken
German incomprehensible
To be fair I found german hard too. French was a lot easier and I managed to
get myself up to a basic conversational level just by teaching myself on the
tube ride in the mornings. Perhaps you should have picked a different country
to live in?
Difficulty in picking up foreign languages (or even English when an
infant) is one of the classic symptoms of even high-functioning autism
sufferers.
I think thats a bit unfair. Some people are just bad at languages in the way
that others just don't get maths no matter how much effort they put in.
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-01-11 16:27:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by tim...
Some people are just no good at learning foreign languages
after 200 hours (and that is a lot) of lessons I was still finding spoken
German incomprehensible
To be fair I found german hard too. French was a lot easier and I managed to
get myself up to a basic conversational level just by teaching myself on the
tube ride in the mornings. Perhaps you should have picked a different country
to live in?
Difficulty in picking up foreign languages (or even English when an
infant) is one of the classic symptoms of even high-functioning autism
sufferers.
I think thats a bit unfair. Some people are just bad at languages in the way
that others just don't get maths no matter how much effort they put in.
It' not "unfair", it's a condition with symptoms, just like colour
blindness, dyslexia or dyspraxia. Not everyone can be good at
everything, nor should we blame them, it's just the way they are.

Understanding disability[1] is a fundamental part of a caring society.

The other side of the coin is that like blind piano tuners having
enhanced audio skills, high-functioning autism sufferers can be amazing
talented at certain tasks.

[1] Again, that's a word with unnecessary baggage.
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2017-01-11 08:51:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 16:46:37 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by s***@potato.field
They always have the option of going native and getting a passport of their
country of residence. Since they seem to believe life is better than in the
UK
Post by s***@potato.field
one has to wonder why they don't just do that anyway unless its simply to be
able to fly back and get free NHS treatment or some equally cynical reason.
Why would they fly back to the UK for NHS treatment? They're entitled to
use the local health services, which are often better than the NHS, on the
same terms as the locals.
Maybe, but I can't think of many other reasons not to get a local passport.
Post by Recliner
Many of the expats work for the EU in Brussels, and although some might
want to stay on after the UK leaves, it sems that working for the EU in
Brussels doesn't qualify them for Belgian citizenship on the basis of
residence. They need to have been paying Belgian tax for that.
Quite why anyone would want to live in Belgium beats me anyway. France or
spain I can understand, but Belgium? Ugh.
Brussels is a great place to live and work

rural Belgium, not quite so

tim
Post by s***@potato.field
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-01-10 20:37:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
The last place I worked was a french company and a lot of jobs didn't get
created in the UK, they got "transfered" from france and so did the incumbent
who had been doing it for a couple of days after being hired in france. But
it still looks like a new UK job. Win!
Naturally politicians and Guardian readers are either too pig ignorant or out
of touch to realise this sort of thing is going on all over the place.
Of course it happens a bit, but with only 12% of employees foreign
More than a bit and I wouldn't use the word "only" when saying 12% of the
labour force is foreign.
Post by Roland Perry
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.
I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.
As most of the rest are patently minimum wage cleaning (etc) jobs, your
interest is misplaced.
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Of course, our labour pool will be flooded by British expats sent
packing after freedom of movement in Europe ends.
They always have the option of going native and getting a passport of their
country of residence. Since they seem to believe life is better than in the UK
one has to wonder why they don't just do that anyway unless its simply to be
able to fly back and get free NHS treatment or some equally cynical reason.
What amounts to freelancers will work wherever the cost-benefit is in
their favour. Brexit removes most of the benefits.
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2017-01-11 08:59:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
The last place I worked was a french company and a lot of jobs didn't get
created in the UK, they got "transfered" from france and so did the incumbent
who had been doing it for a couple of days after being hired in france. But
it still looks like a new UK job. Win!
Naturally politicians and Guardian readers are either too pig ignorant or out
of touch to realise this sort of thing is going on all over the place.
Of course it happens a bit, but with only 12% of employees foreign
More than a bit and I wouldn't use the word "only" when saying 12% of the
labour force is foreign.
Post by Roland Perry
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.
I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.
As most of the rest are patently minimum wage cleaning (etc) jobs, your
interest is misplaced.
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Of course, our labour pool will be flooded by British expats sent
packing after freedom of movement in Europe ends.
They always have the option of going native and getting a passport of their
country of residence. Since they seem to believe life is better than in the UK
one has to wonder why they don't just do that anyway unless its simply to be
able to fly back and get free NHS treatment or some equally cynical reason.
What amounts to freelancers will work wherever the cost-benefit is in
their favour. Brexit removes most of the benefits.
I don't know what it's like in finance, but the inclusion of the Eastern
workers to the pool has changed the scene in engineering for the worst
already.

When I started doing European Gigs you would find 80-90% of freelancers were
Brits (the locals usually being reluctant to live the freelance "life").

On my last one that was down to about 20% and whilst some of the difference
was made up by an increase in (still reluctant) locals, about 50% were from
East Europe.

I have no idea whether this is because they would work for less or not.

tim
s***@potato.field
2017-01-11 09:36:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 08:59:54 -0000
Post by tim...
On my last one that was down to about 20% and whilst some of the difference
was made up by an increase in (still reluctant) locals, about 50% were from
East Europe.
I have no idea whether this is because they would work for less or not.
Its almost certainly that as it is in other fields. The brits who used to
do the jobs haven't suddenly vanished off the face of the earth.

A good example Guardianistas and similar morons love to cite is coffee shop
workers. "Look how the lazy brits won't do the job" they cry, having rarely
been outside the M25 except in an aircraft. If they visited most county towns
they'd find plenty of brits working in coffee chains and doing a fine job.
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-01-11 10:11:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by tim...
On my last one that was down to about 20% and whilst some of the difference
was made up by an increase in (still reluctant) locals, about 50% were from
East Europe.
I have no idea whether this is because they would work for less or not.
Its almost certainly that as it is in other fields. The brits who used to
do the jobs haven't suddenly vanished off the face of the earth.
There's an IT skills shortage, which explains the various forms of
'foreigner' mentioned in this thread. The British IT workers don't have
to suddenly vanish, there's more work to do, and many of them have
joined the brain drain (so have vanished from the UK you could argue).
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2017-01-11 11:19:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by tim...
On my last one that was down to about 20% and whilst some of the difference
was made up by an increase in (still reluctant) locals, about 50% were from
East Europe.
I have no idea whether this is because they would work for less or not.
Its almost certainly that as it is in other fields. The brits who used to
do the jobs haven't suddenly vanished off the face of the earth.
There's an IT skills shortage,
not in engineering there isn't

tim
Roland Perry
2017-01-11 13:21:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
There's an IT skills shortage,
not in engineering there isn't
Yes there is. Maybe not in your specific field, if your view is coloured
by applying for jobs you don't get.
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2017-01-11 13:31:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
There's an IT skills shortage,
not in engineering there isn't
Yes there is. Maybe not in your specific field, if your view is coloured
by applying for jobs you don't get.
No, it's based upon what my peers tell me happens to them as well

And what happens is that once you get to 40+ few want to employ you in
non-management positions however good a match you are for the role.

An industry that can "afford" to "throw way" people who are less than 50%
through their useful career cannot be short of suitable workers.

tim
Roland Perry
2017-01-11 14:31:59 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
There's an IT skills shortage,
not in engineering there isn't
Yes there is. Maybe not in your specific field, if your view is
coloured by applying for jobs you don't get.
No, it's based upon what my peers tell me happens to them as well
And what happens is that once you get to 40+ few want to employ you in
non-management positions however good a match you are for the role.
An industry that can "afford" to "throw way" people who are less than
50% through their useful career cannot be short of suitable workers.
I agree that there's ageism, but some of that is justified if you want
fresh minds to address new problems.
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-01-11 15:20:35 UTC
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Raw Message
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 14:31:59 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
An industry that can "afford" to "throw way" people who are less than
50% through their useful career cannot be short of suitable workers.
I agree that there's ageism, but some of that is justified if you want
fresh minds to address new problems.
That works in a small percentage of cases. However what usually happens is
the "fresh minds" make the same old mistakes of previous generations and just
end up re-inventing the wheel. Often poorly.
--
Spud
tim...
2017-01-11 15:39:38 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 14:31:59 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
An industry that can "afford" to "throw way" people who are less than
50% through their useful career cannot be short of suitable workers.
I agree that there's ageism, but some of that is justified if you want
fresh minds to address new problems.
That works in a small percentage of cases. However what usually happens is
the "fresh minds" make the same old mistakes of previous generations and just
end up re-inventing the wheel. Often poorly.
and either way, you don't need a whole team of 20 to be under 25.

(unless you are a 30 year old manager who scared he might have his technical
capabilities "shown up" - heard stories of that, never personally
experienced it)

tim
Roland Perry
2017-01-11 15:51:51 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
An industry that can "afford" to "throw way" people who are less than
50% through their useful career cannot be short of suitable workers.
I agree that there's ageism, but some of that is justified if you want
fresh minds to address new problems.
That works in a small percentage of cases. However what usually happens is
the "fresh minds" make the same old mistakes of previous generations and just
end up re-inventing the wheel. Often poorly.
I'm not sure how that would apply to something like Blockchain. No wheel
to re-invent, there.
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2017-01-11 16:12:45 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
An industry that can "afford" to "throw way" people who are less than
50% through their useful career cannot be short of suitable workers.
I agree that there's ageism, but some of that is justified if you want
fresh minds to address new problems.
That works in a small percentage of cases. However what usually happens is
the "fresh minds" make the same old mistakes of previous generations and just
end up re-inventing the wheel. Often poorly.
I'm not sure how that would apply to something like Blockchain. No wheel
to re-invent, there.
and how many "engineering" IT project use that

I have never even heard of it (and having Googled it, I can see why)

tim
Post by Roland Perry
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2017-01-11 16:29:19 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
An industry that can "afford" to "throw way" people who are less than
50% through their useful career cannot be short of suitable workers.
I agree that there's ageism, but some of that is justified if you want
fresh minds to address new problems.
That works in a small percentage of cases. However what usually happens is
the "fresh minds" make the same old mistakes of previous generations and just
end up re-inventing the wheel. Often poorly.
I'm not sure how that would apply to something like Blockchain. No
wheel to re-invent, there.
and how many "engineering" IT project use that
You don't think building an e-commerce platform is IT? Uber would be
disappointed (they call themselves a tech firm).
Post by tim...
I have never even heard of it
I bet myself you'd say that.
Post by tim...
(and having Googled it, I can see why)
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-01-11 16:15:41 UTC
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On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 15:51:51 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
An industry that can "afford" to "throw way" people who are less than
50% through their useful career cannot be short of suitable workers.
I agree that there's ageism, but some of that is justified if you want
fresh minds to address new problems.
That works in a small percentage of cases. However what usually happens is
the "fresh minds" make the same old mistakes of previous generations and just
end up re-inventing the wheel. Often poorly.
I'm not sure how that would apply to something like Blockchain. No wheel
to re-invent, there.
Since no one has any idea who invented blockchain and bitcoin there's no way
of knowing if they're a young genius or an ageing professor. Or a government
agency. My money is on one of the latter since no one young who invents
something like that off their own bat is going to remain anonymous when they
could shout it to the world and make a fortune on the back of it.
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-01-11 16:30:07 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
An industry that can "afford" to "throw way" people who are less than
50% through their useful career cannot be short of suitable workers.
I agree that there's ageism, but some of that is justified if you want
fresh minds to address new problems.
That works in a small percentage of cases. However what usually happens is
the "fresh minds" make the same old mistakes of previous generations and just
end up re-inventing the wheel. Often poorly.
I'm not sure how that would apply to something like Blockchain. No wheel
to re-invent, there.
Since no one has any idea who invented blockchain and bitcoin there's no way
of knowing if they're a young genius or an ageing professor.
Er, it's people deploying solutions based on blockchain I was referring
to.
--
Roland Perry
Eric
2017-01-11 18:06:41 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 14:31:59 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
An industry that can "afford" to "throw way" people who are less than
50% through their useful career cannot be short of suitable workers.
I agree that there's ageism, but some of that is justified if you want
fresh minds to address new problems.
That works in a small percentage of cases. However what usually happens is
the "fresh minds" make the same old mistakes of previous generations and just
end up re-inventing the wheel. Often poorly.
Aaaaaargh! That's the second time today I've agreed with you!

And, to pick on something actually lower down in the thread, just
because it's a new platform or new tools doesn't mean that they don't
make the same category of mistakes, and re-invent wheels at the logical
level before they try to code them.

Eric
--
ms fnd in a lbry
tim...
2017-01-11 11:19:13 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 08:59:54 -0000
Post by tim...
On my last one that was down to about 20% and whilst some of the difference
was made up by an increase in (still reluctant) locals, about 50% were from
East Europe.
I have no idea whether this is because they would work for less or not.
Its almost certainly that as it is in other fields.
but in this case it won't be the end employer paying less

it will be the agency in the middle creaming off a bigger margin
Post by s***@potato.field
The brits who used to
do the jobs haven't suddenly vanished off the face of the earth.
They haven't vanished but IME (and that of my colleagues that I am in touch
with) opportunities for foreign freelancers are becoming scarcer


tim
s***@potato.field
2017-01-11 09:29:04 UTC
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On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:37:44 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.
I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.
As most of the rest are patently minimum wage cleaning (etc) jobs, your
interest is misplaced.
The statement that only 3.2% of workers in IT are foreign nationals is
farcical.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
They always have the option of going native and getting a passport of their
country of residence. Since they seem to believe life is better than in the UK
one has to wonder why they don't just do that anyway unless its simply to be
able to fly back and get free NHS treatment or some equally cynical reason.
What amounts to freelancers will work wherever the cost-benefit is in
their favour. Brexit removes most of the benefits.
Tough. The future of this country is more important than some itinerants making
a killing abroad.
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-01-11 10:14:30 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.
I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.
As most of the rest are patently minimum wage cleaning (etc) jobs, your
interest is misplaced.
The statement that only 3.2% of workers in IT are foreign nationals is
farcical.
You may of course be confused by the number of second generation
immigrants working in IT - Brits of course. And like I said, the
proportion in London is higher than the rest of the country, so you
can't extrapolate from the place(s) where you happen to work.
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-01-11 10:34:43 UTC
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Raw Message
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 10:14:30 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.
I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.
As most of the rest are patently minimum wage cleaning (etc) jobs, your
interest is misplaced.
The statement that only 3.2% of workers in IT are foreign nationals is
farcical.
You may of course be confused by the number of second generation
immigrants working in IT - Brits of course. And like I said, the
Don't patronise me. I'm perfectly capable of hearing a british accent on an
asian or black person. I'm talking about foreign nationals.
Post by Roland Perry
proportion in London is higher than the rest of the country, so you
can't extrapolate from the place(s) where you happen to work.
Well I guess it depends what IT. If it includes every part time sys admin
who pops up in local firms around the country to fix a borked Windows machine
then probably not, but serious computing infrastructure, activity and workers
are generally confined to large firms who in turn are confined to only a few
areas in the country with London being the main one (followed by the M3/M4
corridors, manchester and glasgow).
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-01-11 11:03:15 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.
I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.
As most of the rest are patently minimum wage cleaning (etc) jobs, your
interest is misplaced.
The statement that only 3.2% of workers in IT are foreign nationals is
farcical.
You may of course be confused by the number of second generation
immigrants working in IT - Brits of course. And like I said, the
Don't patronise me. I'm perfectly capable of hearing a british accent on an
asian or black person. I'm talking about foreign nationals.
Can you tell from their accent whether they've naturalised British?
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-01-11 11:36:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 11:03:15 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.
I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.
As most of the rest are patently minimum wage cleaning (etc) jobs, your
interest is misplaced.
The statement that only 3.2% of workers in IT are foreign nationals is
farcical.
You may of course be confused by the number of second generation
immigrants working in IT - Brits of course. And like I said, the
Don't patronise me. I'm perfectly capable of hearing a british accent on an
asian or black person. I'm talking about foreign nationals.
Can you tell from their accent whether they've naturalised British?
Stop splitting hairs. In this particular office there are few people with
british accents right now.
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-01-11 13:22:25 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.
I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.
As most of the rest are patently minimum wage cleaning (etc) jobs, your
interest is misplaced.
The statement that only 3.2% of workers in IT are foreign nationals is
farcical.
You may of course be confused by the number of second generation
immigrants working in IT - Brits of course. And like I said, the
Don't patronise me. I'm perfectly capable of hearing a british accent on an
asian or black person. I'm talking about foreign nationals.
Can you tell from their accent whether they've naturalised British?
Stop splitting hairs. In this particular office there are few people with
british accents right now.
You would clearly be surprised how many naturalised foreigners there are
in the country.
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-01-11 15:19:19 UTC
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On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 13:22:25 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
You would clearly be surprised how many naturalised foreigners there are
in the country.
Unless people start speaking a language as a child then they always retain
at least some of the accent of their mother tonque so are fairly easy to spot.
--
Spud
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-01-11 15:53:12 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 13:22:25 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
You would clearly be surprised how many naturalised foreigners there are
in the country.
Unless people start speaking a language as a child then they always retain
at least some of the accent of their mother tonque so are fairly easy to spot.
Commonly, yes but not always. You'd be surprised, especially by a lot of
Danes.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2017-01-11 15:55:11 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
You would clearly be surprised how many naturalised foreigners there are
in the country.
Unless people start speaking a language as a child then they always retain
at least some of the accent of their mother tonque so are fairly easy to spot.
Some are much better than that. I knew what we might call a barrister in
Germany who was German but had spent some time in the USA. His accent
was indistinguishable from a mother tongue USA-ian.

The reverse is sometimes true - if someone has been born and brought up
in the USA from german parents, speaking bilingually in the home,
there's every possibility of being able to detect a residual German
accent.
--
Roland Perry
Arthur Figgis
2017-01-11 18:42:19 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Some are much better than that. I knew what we might call a barrister in
Germany who was German but had spent some time in the USA. His accent
was indistinguishable from a mother tongue USA-ian.
But how did he use the word "since"?
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Arthur Figgis
2017-01-11 18:41:17 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
You would clearly be surprised how many naturalised foreigners there are
in the country.
If they are naturalised, are they foreigners?
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
tim...
2017-01-11 08:49:12 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 15:08:03 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
The last place I worked was a french company and a lot of jobs didn't get
created in the UK, they got "transfered" from france and so did the incumbent
who had been doing it for a couple of days after being hired in france. But
it still looks like a new UK job. Win!
Naturally politicians and Guardian readers are either too pig ignorant or out
of touch to realise this sort of thing is going on all over the place.
Of course it happens a bit, but with only 12% of employees foreign
More than a bit and I wouldn't use the word "only" when saying 12% of the
labour force is foreign.
Post by Roland Perry
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.
I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.
I've told this before, but I'll do it again

Some time ago, I did a short gig for a 2 man and a dog engineering company
who had decided to expand by taking on a couple of new engineering grads (as
SW/HW engineers).

They had employed one Asian female and an Indian male from that year's UK
graduations.

During a casual discussion with the MD when I said something like "those two
grads of yours seem to be getting on well" he replied with "yes", "and you
know the odd thing was, every single one of the applicants that we received
'looked like them'"

This was in rural Hants.

tim
s***@potato.field
2017-01-11 09:32:47 UTC
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On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 08:49:12 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by s***@potato.field
I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.
I've told this before, but I'll do it again
I think it was someone else you told because I don't remember it.
Post by tim...
During a casual discussion with the MD when I said something like "those two
grads of yours seem to be getting on well" he replied with "yes", "and you
know the odd thing was, every single one of the applicants that we received
'looked like them'"
This was in rural Hants.
Job agencies can be very selective over who they put forward for a number of
reasons and not just to fit the clients criteria. Funnily enough many years ago
I was apparently put forward for a job only to be told by the agency my
experience didn't match the requirements so no interview. Another egency put me
forward for the same job and not only did I get an interview, I got the job
too. Clearly the 1st agent was lying through his teeth. Other people I know in
IT have had similar experiences with agencies over the years.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-01-11 09:36:20 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 08:49:12 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by s***@potato.field
I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.
I've told this before, but I'll do it again
I think it was someone else you told because I don't remember it.
Me neither.
tim...
2017-01-11 11:26:55 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 08:49:12 -0000
Post by tim...
Post by s***@potato.field
I'd be interested to see their definition of IT because my experience is
vastly different.
I've told this before, but I'll do it again
I think it was someone else you told because I don't remember it.
It almost certainly wasn't on this group, but there is overspill from people
on the most likely group, so I was CMA
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by tim...
During a casual discussion with the MD when I said something like "those two
grads of yours seem to be getting on well" he replied with "yes", "and you
know the odd thing was, every single one of the applicants that we received
'looked like them'"
This was in rural Hants.
Job agencies can be very selective over who they put forward for a number of
reasons and not just to fit the clients criteria.
This was a new graduate recruitment

I don't think they went near an agency

Advert on the jobs board in the local unis the most likely route (I assume
that sort of thing still exists)
Post by s***@potato.field
Funnily enough many years ago
I was apparently put forward for a job only to be told by the agency my
experience didn't match the requirements so no interview. Another egency put me
forward for the same job and not only did I get an interview, I got the job
too. Clearly the 1st agent was lying through his teeth. Other people I know in
IT have had similar experiences with agencies over the years.
Me to, both sides of the fence

but as above, not applicable in this case

tim
Recliner
2017-01-10 16:49:56 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
If that was the only place immigrants were taking jobs then that would be a
valid question, but as you know - it isn't.
It's the jobs which tipped the Brexit balance among voters.
Yes, but I doubt it was particularly vegetable picking jobs.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
I'm currently sitting in an office 60% immigrants, none of them doing
a job that couldn't have been done by a native. And in fact 1 position
was illegally filled since it wasn't advertised in the UK before a
foreign director found someone in his own country to fill it for a
pittance salary.
That's extraordinary. Either a very small office and that's six out of
Not in London it isn't. Most IT depts I've worked in in the last 10 years
have been 30-60% foreign nationals and the proportion has slowly been rising
over the years.
Post by Roland Perry
ten by some fluke, or as you hint a foreign-owned firm preferring its
nationals. And that could of course bring with them skills that a native
*didn't* have.
The majority of the directors are foreign and seem to prefer to hire
immigrants. I'm guessing because they're cheaper.
The last place I worked was a french company and a lot of jobs didn't get
created in the UK, they got "transfered" from france and so did the incumbent
who had been doing it for a couple of days after being hired in france. But
it still looks like a new UK job. Win!
Naturally politicians and Guardian readers are either too pig ignorant or out
of touch to realise this sort of thing is going on all over the place.
Of course it happens a bit, but with only 12% of employees foreign
nationals, there are a lot of regional variations. To be fair the number
in London is higher than average - but most are in minimum wage jobs.
Just 3.2% in IT or telecoms jobs.
Source: Labour Force Survey 2015, Q1-Q4.
Of course, our labour pool will be flooded by British expats sent
packing after freedom of movement in Europe ends.
I very much doubt that any established expats will be sent packing in
either direction. People already resident will almost certainly be
permitted to stay on.

Also, while most EU expats in the UK are workers, many UK expats in the EU
are retirees. While I'm sure they'll be permitted to remain, their access
to local health services may be more limited than today, which may mean
that some choose to return.
Roland Perry
2017-01-10 20:42:41 UTC
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In message
<919713145.505759644.863903.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 16:49:56 on Tue, 10 Jan 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Of course, our labour pool will be flooded by British expats sent
packing after freedom of movement in Europe ends.
I very much doubt that any established expats will be sent packing in
either direction. People already resident will almost certainly be
permitted to stay on.
Also, while most EU expats in the UK are workers, many UK expats in the EU
are retirees. While I'm sure they'll be permitted to remain, their access
to local health services may be more limited than today, which may mean
that some choose to return.
We'll see. While I agree that many retired ex-pats will be forced to
return to the UK and thus mop up quite a bit of the £350m extra Boris
promised the NHS, there are also a lot of expats in paying jobs in the
EU. The place I was attached to in the Netherlands a few years back had
perhaps a quarter of the staff (highly qualified) recruited from the UK
out of the 100 permanent employees.
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2017-01-11 09:11:54 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 16:49:56 on Tue, 10 Jan 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Of course, our labour pool will be flooded by British expats sent
packing after freedom of movement in Europe ends.
I very much doubt that any established expats will be sent packing in
either direction. People already resident will almost certainly be
permitted to stay on.
Also, while most EU expats in the UK are workers, many UK expats in the EU
are retirees. While I'm sure they'll be permitted to remain, their access
to local health services may be more limited than today, which may mean
that some choose to return.
We'll see. While I agree that many retired ex-pats will be forced to
return to the UK and thus mop up quite a bit of the £350m extra Boris
promised the NHS, there are also a lot of expats in paying jobs in the EU.
The place I was attached to in the Netherlands a few years back had
perhaps a quarter of the staff (highly qualified) recruited from the UK
out of the 100 permanent employees.
I think you've just described exactly why they wont be sent back.

Just how are they going to find suitably qualified local replacements for
25% of their workforce, all to start "tomorrow".

The thing about FoM is that its only works as a positive EU-wide right. It
doesn't work as a negative EU-wide restriction.

Individual EU countries are free to have their own rules wrt employment of
non-EU nationals and can give out as many "permissions" to work locally as
they see fit (of course such a permission doesn't give that individual FoM
to other countries). Counties who already have millions of UK workers can
immediately "legalises" them regardless of any Brexit agreement - and almost
certainly would be foolish not to.

Retirees are, of course, a different issue.

tim
Roland Perry
2017-01-11 10:18:16 UTC
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Post by tim...
While I agree that many retired ex-pats will be forced to return to
the UK and thus mop up quite a bit of the £350m extra Boris promised
the NHS, there are also a lot of expats in paying jobs in the EU. The
place I was attached to in the Netherlands a few years back had
perhaps a quarter of the staff (highly qualified) recruited from the
UK out of the 100 permanent employees.
I think you've just described exactly why they wont be sent back.
Just how are they going to find suitably qualified local replacements
for 25% of their workforce, all to start "tomorrow".
There's a lot of churn in IT jobs, and while things won't change
*overnight* they may find it a lot harder to recruit Brits if those
Brits need a work permit.
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2017-01-11 11:41:53 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by tim...
While I agree that many retired ex-pats will be forced to return to the
UK and thus mop up quite a bit of the £350m extra Boris promised the
NHS, there are also a lot of expats in paying jobs in the EU. The place
I was attached to in the Netherlands a few years back had perhaps a
quarter of the staff (highly qualified) recruited from the UK out of the
100 permanent employees.
I think you've just described exactly why they wont be sent back.
Just how are they going to find suitably qualified local replacements for
25% of their workforce, all to start "tomorrow".
There's a lot of churn in IT jobs, and while things won't change
*overnight* they may find it a lot harder to recruit Brits if those Brits
need a work permit.
I'm sure that if they need them it wont be that hard.

On my last gig there was an America freelancer. They jumped through the
hoops to get her on board as it was "necessary".

Though it's agreed that Brits will no longer be first port of call. But if
the current need of, for instance, German automotive companies (that is
where the demand for engineers is ATM) cannot be met locally (EU) they will
offer the positions to Brits and do the paperwork. The German government
knows that they need these people so will make sure that the paperwork isn't
too onerous. (IME the local Workers Council put up far more barriers to
employing freelance workers in the first place than the government do for
employing a non-EU citizen.)

I fell sure that you can make the same argument for commercial IT people in
Benelux (on nothing other than a hunch).

Though if it's Spain or Portugal, where overall demand for professional
staff is lower than local supply, they wont be making it easy.

tim
Basil Jet
2017-01-11 14:38:14 UTC
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Post by tim...
I think you've just described exactly why they wont be sent back.
Just how are they going to find suitably qualified local replacements
for 25% of their workforce, all to start "tomorrow".
The thing about FoM is that its only works as a positive EU-wide right.
It doesn't work as a negative EU-wide restriction.
Individual EU countries are free to have their own rules wrt employment
of non-EU nationals and can give out as many "permissions" to work
locally as they see fit (of course such a permission doesn't give that
individual FoM to other countries). Counties who already have millions
of UK workers can immediately "legalises" them regardless of any Brexit
agreement - and almost certainly would be foolish not to.
The EU overruling its nations and making Brits the only people in the
world who are banned from working in the EU wouldn't surprise me. But
hey-ho, let's get on with it and see!
Neil Williams
2017-01-09 10:59:17 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
The 1hr is true.
It's typical on conventional mainlines, but on very fast ones much less
so because price also comes into it. Rugby is not, for example,
primarily a commuter town (there are commuters, but that proves nothing
- there are commuters from far further away too). I wouldn't expect
HS2 to turn the Birmingham suburbs into London commuterland, either.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
Roland Perry
2017-01-09 11:13:03 UTC
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Post by Neil Williams
Post by Roland Perry
The 1hr is true.
It's typical on conventional mainlines, but on very fast ones much less
so because price also comes into it. Rugby is not, for example,
primarily a commuter town (there are commuters, but that proves nothing
- there are commuters from far further away too).
Peterborough and Market Harborough[1] definitely, Grantham increasingly
so.

[1] Which are both further north than Rugby
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2017-01-06 19:50:36 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 11:03:59 +0000
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
"London is growing, with an estimated 10 million people expected to live here
by the early 2030s"
10 million already live in commuting distance. Presumably they mean within
the london boroughs
Isn't "commuting distance" usually reckoned to be an hour from a London
Rail Terminus? Although 10m is far too small for that.
Don't know, but isn't there something like 20-25 million in london and the home
counties?
2011 census

London 8 Million

SE region 8.5 million

Eastern Region 6 million

tim
Someone Somewhere
2017-01-04 15:06:20 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 12:10:33 +0000
Post by Someone Somewhere
In offering the buses for sale, Transport Malta had laid down that they
cannot be returned to Malta’s roads, because of the congestion they caused.
So it's not just London where bendy buses are unwelcome due to congestion...
What causes more congestion, 2 double deckers or one bendy? I'm guessing you
don't visit Oxford street very often.
Why would I? I'm a Londoner and we famously rarely visit the West End...

The sort of issue I was thinking of was around Brixton where there are
several pairings of lights that are about 1.5 bendies or 2 double
deckers apart - a single bendy is fine, but once two try to get through
either the arse end of one ends up blocking the lights/junction or
leaves a large gap in front which is rapidly filled by overtaking
marauding white vans and taxis preventing it making the progress it
could do and leading to congestion behind. From memory there were
similar issues in the Aldgate area.

Yes, HGVs can cause the same issue, but there are a lot more buses
around on certain roads than there are HGVs.
s***@potato.field
2017-01-04 16:47:37 UTC
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On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 15:06:20 +0000
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 12:10:33 +0000
Post by Someone Somewhere
In offering the buses for sale, Transport Malta had laid down that they
cannot be returned to Malta’s roads, because of the congestion they caused.
So it's not just London where bendy buses are unwelcome due to congestion...
What causes more congestion, 2 double deckers or one bendy? I'm guessing you
don't visit Oxford street very often.
Why would I? I'm a Londoner and we famously rarely visit the West End...
Speak for yourself. I often go there since its about the only place that has
any decent book and record shops left! Oxford street was a sea of mostly empty
buses doing 5mph as usual.
Post by Someone Somewhere
The sort of issue I was thinking of was around Brixton where there are
several pairings of lights that are about 1.5 bendies or 2 double
deckers apart - a single bendy is fine, but once two try to get through
either the arse end of one ends up blocking the lights/junction or
leaves a large gap in front which is rapidly filled by overtaking
marauding white vans and taxis preventing it making the progress it
could do and leading to congestion behind. From memory there were
similar issues in the Aldgate area.
Yes, HGVs can cause the same issue, but there are a lot more buses
around on certain roads than there are HGVs.
Well, its horses for course. You don't use double deckers on routes with low
bridges and bendies shouldn't have been used in areas they blocked junctions.
Anyway, its all academic now, I doubt they'll be back anytime soon sadly.
--
Spud
Neil Williams
2017-01-03 23:16:21 UTC
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Post by Someone Somewhere
That, allied to their reputation as a "free bus"
I'm not clear why the Bozza bus, which has exactly the same operating
model, isn't also seen that way.

FWIW, the bendy could have been operated as "on at the front, off at
the back" the same as most London deckers. The method of revenue
protection has nothing to do with the type of bus.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-01-04 00:24:54 UTC
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Post by Neil Williams
Post by Someone Somewhere
That, allied to their reputation as a "free bus"
I'm not clear why the Bozza bus, which has exactly the same operating
model, isn't also seen that way.
FWIW, the bendy could have been operated as "on at the front, off at
the back" the same as most London deckers. The method of revenue
protection has nothing to do with the type of bus.
Presumably the main difference is the larger number of passengers per bus.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Richard
2017-01-04 20:40:57 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Someone Somewhere
That, allied to their reputation as a "free bus"
I'm not clear why the Bozza bus, which has exactly the same operating
model, isn't also seen that way.
FWIW, the bendy could have been operated as "on at the front, off at
the back" the same as most London deckers. The method of revenue
protection has nothing to do with the type of bus.
Presumably the main difference is the larger number of passengers per bus.
Another nail in the coffin was the Brexit-style campaign of
misinformation from serial liar Boris himself and the Mini Mail -- or
was the Standard in the oligarch's hands by then?

Plenty of artic buses are operated in an "on at the front" manner -
many, many places in France and Spain for instance, and they operate
in many of the oldest cities across Europe so I maintain sceptical
about their alleged problems. Of course, some routes suit some
vehicles better. The first routes these buses went from were the ones
to which they were most suited, therefore IMO the policy was nothing
but bollocks.

Richard.
s***@potato.field
2017-01-05 09:25:13 UTC
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On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 20:40:57 +0000
Post by Richard
Another nail in the coffin was the Brexit-style campaign of
misinformation from serial liar Boris himself and the Mini Mail -- or
Boris just jumps on any bandwagon that it thinks will take him somewhere
convenient. With the buses he could stick it to ken and get the lycra lout
vote all in one.
Post by Richard
was the Standard in the oligarch's hands by then?
Sadly the standard these days is nothing more than Guardian Lite. An
unremitting diet of liberal left bullshit and propaganda.
Post by Richard
vehicles better. The first routes these buses went from were the ones
to which they were most suited, therefore IMO the policy was nothing
but bollocks.
Weren't they removed from Uxbridge road PDQ, the route that was absolutely
perfect for them?
--
Spud
Water musician
2017-01-06 08:07:05 UTC
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Bendies here in Caen and many other French cities operate “on at the front,
off at the centre and rear” rule. Enforced by onboard CCTV in many locales.

Mind you, Twisto here (aka Kaolis) over-eggs the pudding somewhat with the
message “Je Monte, Je Valide” alternating with the destination on the
front display panel every few seconds. A big irritation in the city centre
when you can’t tell whether your bus is next or one following, since they
are all showing the same front message.

As one friend put it: “Kaolis obviously think we Caennais are stupid. Half
the population is too young to know any other kind of bus – and the rest of
us have had years to learn how it works. We know we have to pay or valider
when we board – what we REALLY want to know is this if it is the bus we
want to board.”

Of course the real anti-social behaviour on our buses is failing to say
“Bonjour” to the conducteur as you compostez, [For the avoidance of
doubt, that’s the person sitting at the steering wheel].
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Someone Somewhere
That, allied to their reputation as a "free bus"
I'm not clear why the Bozza bus, which has exactly the same operating
model, isn't also seen that way.
FWIW, the bendy could have been operated as "on at the front, off at
the back" the same as most London deckers. The method of revenue
protection has nothing to do with the type of bus.
Neil
s***@potato.field
2017-01-06 10:51:14 UTC
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Raw Message
On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 09:07:05 +0100
Bendies here in Caen and many other French cities operate “on at the front,
off at the centre and rear” rule. Enforced by onboard CCTV in many locales.
Mind you, Twisto here (aka Kaolis) over-eggs the pudding somewhat with the
message “Je Monte, Je Valide” alternating with the destination on the
front display panel every few seconds. A big irritation in the city centre
when you can’t tell whether your bus is next or one following, since they
are all showing the same front message.
As one friend put it: “Kaolis obviously think we Caennais are stupid. Half
the population is too young to know any other kind of bus – and the rest of
us have had years to learn how it works. We know we have to pay or valider
when we board – what we REALLY want to know is this if it is the bus we
want to board.”
The london bus dot matrix boards at bus stops are useful , but they do have
an annoying habit of slowly going through a list of up to 9 buses r a t h e r
s l o o o o w ly , which is annoying when its telling you the 7th, 8th and 9th
buses (which are usually 15-20 mins away) when all want to know if your bus is
coming in the next 2 mins or whether you have enough time to do a bit more
shopping.
--
Spud
Robin
2017-01-02 22:30:18 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
<http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sadiq-khan-london-mayor-
boris-bus-scrap-boris-johnson-legacy-double-decker-routemasters-
a7505391.html>
That was in TfL's business plan published on 8 December.

<http://content.tfl.gov.uk/board-20161215-item09-tfl-business-plan.pdf>

And nice of the Independent to go along with TfL's spin. While I'm no
fan of the NRMs, there's not even a hint of the other narrative:

"Sadiq Khan's fares freeze means TfL can no longer afford to buy other
kinds of new buses in place of the Routemasters".
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-01-10 20:08:46 UTC
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In article
Post by Recliner
I very much doubt that any established expats will be sent packing in
either direction. People already resident will almost certainly be
permitted to stay on.
It seems the Home Office have already started making like difficult for
families from EU of workers here, to judge from the number of media reports
and their past form.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Recliner
2017-01-10 21:12:32 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
In article
Post by Recliner
I very much doubt that any established expats will be sent packing in
either direction. People already resident will almost certainly be
permitted to stay on.
It seems the Home Office have already started making like difficult for
families from EU of workers here, to judge from the number of media reports
and their past form.
That's because they've applied for UK passports, and for various
bureaucratic reasons, their long UK residence didn't qualify or couldn't be
proven. In one case, their application was stupidly rejected because, for
good reasons, they'd sent in an official copy of a document instead of the
original.
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-01-11 01:50:32 UTC
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In article
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
In article
Post by Recliner
I very much doubt that any established expats will be sent packing in
either direction. People already resident will almost certainly be
permitted to stay on.
It seems the Home Office have already started making like difficult
for families from EU of workers here, to judge from the number of
media reports and their past form.
That's because they've applied for UK passports, and for various
bureaucratic reasons, their long UK residence didn't qualify or couldn't
be proven. In one case, their application was stupidly rejected because,
for good reasons, they'd sent in an official copy of a document instead
of the original.
The Home Office has a long record of bureaucratic meanness to foreigners.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
tim...
2017-01-11 09:13:49 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
In article
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
In article
Post by Recliner
I very much doubt that any established expats will be sent packing in
either direction. People already resident will almost certainly be
permitted to stay on.
It seems the Home Office have already started making like difficult
for families from EU of workers here, to judge from the number of
media reports and their past form.
That's because they've applied for UK passports, and for various
bureaucratic reasons, their long UK residence didn't qualify or couldn't
be proven. In one case, their application was stupidly rejected because,
for good reasons, they'd sent in an official copy of a document instead
of the original.
The Home Office has a long record of bureaucratic meanness to foreigners.
And do you have any experience of this in other EU counties?

I can assure you that they are just as mean.

tim
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