Discussion:
Oyster changes/improvements
Add Reply
n***@soods.freeserve.co.uk
2017-07-19 23:35:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
----
Passengers who top up their pay as you go credit or buy Travelcards using Oyster online can now collect their purchase from any Tube or rail station, tram stop or River Bus pier when they touch in, rather than having to nominate a station when they make the purchase.

The upgrade has also significantly reduced the time it takes for the product to be ready to collect - from up to 24 hours to just 30 minutes.

Improvements to Oyster

By the end of autumn, these improvements will also be expanded to allow products to be collected directly on all 9,000 London buses.

The improvements to Oyster will be followed by further upgrades to the system in the coming year.

Next month, the new TfL app will launch, allowing customers to top up their Oyster card with pay as you go credit and buy Travelcards wherever they are.

The new app, which will be available to download for free via the Apple App Store and Google Play Store, will allow customers to use their smartphone to quickly add pay as you go credit to their Oyster card.

It will also allow customers to check how much credit they have on their Oyster card and also provide, for the first time, a 'Low balance' alert direct on their mobile to help customers ensure they have enough pay as you go credit before they travel.

Throughout 2017 and 2018, further improvements to the Oyster system will also be introduced, including:

Expanding the Mayor's 'Hopper fare' to allow unlimited journeys on buses and trams within an hour Making Bus & Tram Pass season tickets available to purchase online and via the app

Introducing Weekly Capping on Oyster to bring it in line with Contactless

- Once launched, further functions will be added to the TfL app throughout 2017, including making it quicker and easier to apply for refunds for incomplete journeys, as well as viewing journey history for Contactless payments in Spring 2018
- In order to use the new TfL app, customers will need to have an Oyster online account. Customers with a first-generation Oyster card, which were predominantly issued prior to 2010, will also need to upgrade their Oyster card to one which has a "D" in the bottom left hand corner on the back of the card. For more information about this, please visit - tfl.gov.uk/first-generation-oyster
- TfL is currently contacting regular Oyster card users with a first-generation card through Oyster online to encourage them to upgrade their card prior to the release of the new TfL app

Full announcement at https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2017/july/tfl-makes-it-easier-to-top-up-oyster-cards-while-on-the-go
Clive Page
2017-07-20 21:17:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by n***@soods.freeserve.co.uk
- TfL is currently contacting regular Oyster card users with a first-generation card through Oyster online to encourage them to upgrade their card prior to the release of the new TfL app
Is there any way that I can tell whether I have a first generation card?
--
Clive Page
Recliner
2017-07-20 21:22:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Clive Page
Post by n***@soods.freeserve.co.uk
- TfL is currently contacting regular Oyster card users with a
first-generation card through Oyster online to encourage them to upgrade
their card prior to the release of the new TfL app
Is there any way that I can tell whether I have a first generation card?
The post you quoted from actually covered that in the para above the one
you quoted. It's also in

<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/oyster/using-oyster/first-generation-oyster-cards?cid=first-generation-oyster>

Quote:

If you don't want to use the app, there's no need to replace your
first-generation Oyster card, as it will continue to work as usual.

Do you have a first-generation Oyster card?

If your Oyster card has a 'D' in the bottom left hand corner on the reverse
(indicated by the red square in the below image), it's second-generation
and you don't need to do anything.

First generation Oyster card - back view

If your Oyster card doesn't have a 'D' on the reverse, it's a
first-generation card. If you have an Oyster online account with a
first-generation card added, you'll see a message telling you this when you
log in.

Get a new Oyster card

When you get a new Oyster card, you need to pay a deposit of £5 and you
must add a minimum amount of pay as you go credit, or a season ticket. You
can get a new Oyster card from:
<list>



If you have a first-generation Oyster card added to your online account,
you can call the Oyster sales line and have a new card posted to you within
10 days. If you haven't added your first-generation card to your account,
add it before you call. You won't need to pay a deposit and there's no
minimum pay as you go credit requirement with this option.

What to do with your first-generation Oyster card

You can either:

Transfer your pay as you go credit and/or adult-rate Travelcards from your
first-generation Oyster card to a new one, or
You can get a refund for any pay as you go credit or remaining Travelcards,
plus your deposit if you paid one
Clive Page
2017-07-21 08:59:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive Page
Is there any way that I can tell whether I have a first generation card?
The post you quoted from actually covered that in the para above the one
you quoted. It's also in
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/oyster/using-oyster/first-generation-oyster-cards?cid=first-generation-oyster>
Yes, I should have checked that first, sorry. But as far as I'm concerned this change seems to be pointless. I can't see anywhere what "app" will do that I can't do already. And the transfer process is ridiculously 19th Century:

(1) You have to request a replacement card by telephoning their help line (last time I did that I was on hold for 30 minutes before I reached a human) - there is no way of doing that on-line (or even at a station).

(2) Then you have to wait "up to 15 days" to get the replacement in the post. I.e. using the service unchanged since the time of Queen Victoria except being "up to" 15 times slower.

(3) Then you can go online to transfer the balance from the old card to the new one. But it won't be sensible to use the new one yet because of the lack of an automatically transferred discount.

(4) Then to get a current National Railcard discount transferred to the new card you have to visit a TfL station and find a suitably clued-up member of staff. This took me 10 minutes last time and I think I was lucky to find a queue so short.

So I won't bother, thanks. The question is, will anyone?
--
Clive Page
Someone Somewhere
2017-07-21 09:31:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Clive Page
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive Page
Is there any way that I can tell whether I have a first generation card?
The post you quoted from actually covered that in the para above the one
you quoted. It's also in
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/oyster/using-oyster/first-generation-oyster-cards?cid=first-generation-oyster>
Yes, I should have checked that first, sorry. But as far as I'm
concerned this change seems to be pointless. I can't see anywhere what
"app" will do that I can't do already. And the transfer process is
(1) You have to request a replacement card by telephoning their help
line (last time I did that I was on hold for 30 minutes before I reached
a human) - there is no way of doing that on-line (or even at a station).
You used to be able to get replacements from ticket offices (when they
still existed) for Oysters that were wearing out or similar. Can you do
the same still at Overground ticket offices for example?
David Cantrell
2017-07-24 14:26:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Someone Somewhere
You used to be able to get replacements from ticket offices (when they
still existed) for Oysters that were wearing out or similar. Can you do
the same still at Overground ticket offices for example?
The one in Shoreditch put my disabled railcard onto my Oyster card so I
assume that they can perform all other Oystery rituals.
--
David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive

Immigration: making Britain great since AD43
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-07-24 21:03:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Cantrell
Post by Someone Somewhere
You used to be able to get replacements from ticket offices (when
they still existed) for Oysters that were wearing out or similar.
Can you do the same still at Overground ticket offices for example?
The one in Shoreditch put my disabled railcard onto my Oyster card so I
assume that they can perform all other Oystery rituals.
Floating staff in Underground station ticket halls can do that without a
ticket office. I got my latest Senior Railcard registered that way.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
tim...
2017-07-24 21:41:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by David Cantrell
Post by Someone Somewhere
You used to be able to get replacements from ticket offices (when
they still existed) for Oysters that were wearing out or similar.
Can you do the same still at Overground ticket offices for example?
The one in Shoreditch put my disabled railcard onto my Oyster card so I
assume that they can perform all other Oystery rituals.
Floating staff in Underground station ticket halls can do that without a
ticket office. I got my latest Senior Railcard registered that way.
I wonder how many floating staff there are at South Wimbledon

tim
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Recliner
2017-07-25 08:04:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by David Cantrell
Post by Someone Somewhere
You used to be able to get replacements from ticket offices (when
they still existed) for Oysters that were wearing out or similar.
Can you do the same still at Overground ticket offices for example?
The one in Shoreditch put my disabled railcard onto my Oyster card so I
assume that they can perform all other Oystery rituals.
Floating staff in Underground station ticket halls can do that without a
ticket office. I got my latest Senior Railcard registered that way.
I wonder how many floating staff there are at South Wimbledon
One, presumably.
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-07-25 12:01:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by David Cantrell
Post by Someone Somewhere
You used to be able to get replacements from ticket offices (when
they still existed) for Oysters that were wearing out or similar.
Can you do the same still at Overground ticket offices for example?
The one in Shoreditch put my disabled railcard onto my Oyster card so I
assume that they can perform all other Oystery rituals.
Floating staff in Underground station ticket halls can do that without a
ticket office. I got my latest Senior Railcard registered that way.
I wonder how many floating staff there are at South Wimbledon
Enough. They can't legally run a gateline that isn't staff supervised.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2017-07-26 15:00:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by tim...
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Floating staff in Underground station ticket halls can do that without a
ticket office. I got my latest Senior Railcard registered that way.
I wonder how many floating staff there are at South Wimbledon
Enough. They can't legally run a gateline that isn't staff supervised.
I got my (recently renewed) Senior Railcard (re)added to my Oyster at
Kings Cross yesterday by a floating staffer.

He's clearly not been on the customer service course.

When I approached him and cheerfully asked "can I add my railcard to my
Oyster", he walked off. Having caught up with him, and again, slightly
less cheerfully, asked him if he was available to do the task, he
muttered a lot and gave me a two-finger salute, which giving him the
benefit of the doubt might mean something else in his non-UK native
language.

eg "Give me two seconds to get my head around your irrational request".

He stabbed around a lot at the ticket machine and couldn't find a menu
entry for adding a Senior Railcard. Only a "National Rail" card.

He also *insisted* on a separate ID, which in my case was a driving
licence, but became confused when there was nowhere to type the details
from it into the ticket machine. So as far as I could see, gave up on
that line of enquiry. I'm still unsure if he was entitled to ask.

He then went into "if I bluff enough maybe this irritating customer will
go away" mode, and said that all Railcards were the same now. [I'm
pretty sure they have quite different time-of-day validities].

But as that was clearly the best he was grudgingly prepared to do, I
suppose I'm once again thrown into the barely-auditable bear pit of
"trust us, we'll charge you the correct amount".

Mayor of London's Employee of the Week? No, I don't think so.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-07-26 21:07:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
He then went into "if I bluff enough maybe this irritating customer
will go away" mode, and said that all Railcards were the same now.
[I'm pretty sure they have quite different time-of-day validities].
Looking at the TfL Single Fare Finder I think he's right on that. If they
can be used at all (Network Railcards can't) they have the same validity as
far as Oyster is concerned.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Matthew Dickinson
2017-07-27 12:18:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
He then went into "if I bluff enough maybe this irritating customer
will go away" mode, and said that all Railcards were the same now.
[I'm pretty sure they have quite different time-of-day validities].
Looking at the TfL Single Fare Finder I think he's right on that. If they
can be used at all (Network Railcards can't) they have the same validity as
far as Oyster is concerned.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Disabled Railcards are different as they give peak discounts on Oyster. The others only give off-peak discounts.
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-07-27 18:57:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wednesday, 26 July 2017 22:07:19 UTC+1,
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
He then went into "if I bluff enough maybe this irritating customer
will go away" mode, and said that all Railcards were the same now.
[I'm pretty sure they have quite different time-of-day validities].
Looking at the TfL Single Fare Finder I think he's right on that.
If they can be used at all (Network Railcards can't) they have the
same validity as far as Oyster is concerned.
Disabled Railcards are different as they give peak discounts on
Oyster. The others only give off-peak discounts.
I'd not spotted that. I've not been studying the Single Fare Finder
carefully enough.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2017-07-28 13:05:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
In message <452c0ca1-f6fa-4f06-ab0f-***@googlegroups.com>, at
05:18:04 on Thu, 27 Jul 2017, Matthew Dickinson
Post by Matthew Dickinson
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
He then went into "if I bluff enough maybe this irritating customer
will go away" mode, and said that all Railcards were the same now.
[I'm pretty sure they have quite different time-of-day validities].
Looking at the TfL Single Fare Finder I think he's right on that. If they
can be used at all (Network Railcards can't) they have the same validity as
far as Oyster is concerned.
Disabled Railcards are different as they give peak discounts on Oyster. The
others only give off-peak discounts.
I, of course, was only trying to load an enabled railcard. What's the
approved method if disabling one - stick it in a shredder perhaps.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-07-28 23:57:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
at 05:18:04 on Thu, 27 Jul 2017, Matthew Dickinson
Post by Matthew Dickinson
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
He then went into "if I bluff enough maybe this irritating customer
will go away" mode, and said that all Railcards were the same now.
[I'm pretty sure they have quite different time-of-day validities].
Looking at the TfL Single Fare Finder I think he's right on that. If
they can be used at all (Network Railcards can't) they have the same
validity as far as Oyster is concerned.
Disabled Railcards are different as they give peak discounts on Oyster.
The others only give off-peak discounts.
I, of course, was only trying to load an enabled railcard. What's the
approved method if disabling one - stick it in a shredder perhaps.
Eh? Anyway we found a very nice and helpful staffer at King's Cross St
Pancras this morning (after the only staffer there when we joined the queue
had wandered off with a large group who looked like struggling tourists and
showed no sign of coming back, so the machines were unstaffed for at least 5
minutes).

The queue for the ticket machines in the old ticket hall was utterly
shambolic. They really need a staffer just to manage it because half the
machines (all small ones) weren't being used by people who didn't understand
they could meet their needs while many said they couldn't give change).
Eventually, having asked several people in front of us we just went past
them to one of four working machines not in use. By the way, when will
ticket machines allow contactless card payments for tickets and top-ups?

Anyway, once we'd found her she registered a card that the machine insisted
wasn't (I showed her my Oyster account with it listed) and put my wife's new
Railcard on an Oyster Card that isn't first generation (unlike mine). Result.

A daughter who had been told she had to register her 3-year railcard every
year was also able to discover (without needing staff help) that it was
still registered with the railcard. As the registration process includes
recording the expiry date I don't understand why she'd got that impression.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Recliner
2017-07-21 09:32:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Clive Page
Post by Recliner
Post by Clive Page
Is there any way that I can tell whether I have a first generation card?
The post you quoted from actually covered that in the para above the one
you quoted. It's also in
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/oyster/using-oyster/first-generation-oyster-cards?cid=first-generation-oyster>
Yes, I should have checked that first, sorry. But as far as I'm
concerned this change seems to be pointless. I can't see anywhere what
"app" will do that I can't do already. And the transfer process is
It's not about the approach, but switching to the new back-office Oyster
system. The current cards are obsolete and need to be phased out. This is
the first step in the process.
Post by Clive Page
(1) You have to request a replacement card by telephoning their help line
(last time I did that I was on hold for 30 minutes before I reached a
human) - there is no way of doing that on-line (or even at a station).
(2) Then you have to wait "up to 15 days" to get the replacement in the
post. I.e. using the service unchanged since the time of Queen Victoria
except being "up to" 15 times slower.
(3) Then you can go online to transfer the balance from the old card to
the new one. But it won't be sensible to use the new one yet because of
the lack of an automatically transferred discount.
(4) Then to get a current National Railcard discount transferred to the
new card you have to visit a TfL station and find a suitably clued-up
member of staff. This took me 10 minutes last time and I think I was
lucky to find a queue so short.
So I won't bother, thanks. The question is, will anyone?
Yes, probably most Oyster users. The switch may eventually be mandatory.

And I think you've hugely over-complicated the simple process:

First you need to get a new card, which can be done instantly via:
Online
Visitor Centres
Oyster Ticket Stops
All Tube, London Overground and TfL Rail stations
Some DLR and National Rail stations
Oyster sales line (0343 222 1234, TfL call charges)
The Tramlink Shop, Croydon

Then:

"To transfer any pay as you go credit and/or adult-rate Travelcards from
your first-generation Oyster card to a new one, or to another card you
already have:

- Sign in to your online account. If the card you're transferring to isn't
already added to your account, add it now

- Select your first-generation Oyster card and choose the option 'Transfer
my Travelcard/pay as you go credit to another Oyster card'

- Start using your new Oyster card to travel. After 30 minutes, any pay as
you go credit or Travelcard you transferred will be loaded onto your card
when you touch on a yellow card reader as part of a journey at any Tube,
tram, DLR, London Overground or TfL Rail station, River Bus pier or
National Rail station where Oyster is accepted

- If you had a deposit on your first-generation card, it will be refunded
to your Oyster online account as a credit which you can use for future
purchases"

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/oyster/using-oyster/first-generation-oyster-cards?cid=first-generation-oyster#on-this-page-2
Roland Perry
2017-07-21 10:07:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
In message
<1204340708.522321516.462644.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-sept
ember.org>, at 09:32:55 on Fri, 21 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
The current cards are obsolete and need to be phased out.
All of them, or just the first-generation? Mine has a "D" on the back,
and is from 2014. That was when Barclays threw the "Onepulse" card under
the bus. Hey, another day, another smartcard.

I'm on my third generation Birmingham ITSO and second generation
Scotrail and EMT ITSOs <sigh>.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-07-21 10:27:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 09:32:55 on Fri, 21 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
The current cards are obsolete and need to be phased out.
All of them, or just the first-generation?
Just the first generation.
Post by Roland Perry
Mine has a "D" on the back,
and is from 2014. That was when Barclays threw the "Onepulse" card under
the bus. Hey, another day, another smartcard.
I'm on my third generation Birmingham ITSO and second generation
Scotrail and EMT ITSOs <sigh>.
Someone Somewhere
2017-07-21 14:58:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 09:32:55 on Fri, 21 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
The current cards are obsolete and need to be phased out.
All of them, or just the first-generation? Mine has a "D" on the back,
and is from 2014. That was when Barclays threw the "Onepulse" card under
the bus. Hey, another day, another smartcard.
I'm on my third generation Birmingham ITSO and second generation
Scotrail and EMT ITSOs <sigh>.
Presumably when you are issuing millions of said things there is a lot
of pressure to minimise features and hence costs, unfortunately that
can be a false economy (but may be better than the usual results of
current technology designed by committee)
Recliner
2017-07-21 15:13:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 09:32:55 on Fri, 21 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
The current cards are obsolete and need to be phased out.
All of them, or just the first-generation? Mine has a "D" on the back,
and is from 2014. That was when Barclays threw the "Onepulse" card under
the bus. Hey, another day, another smartcard.
I'm on my third generation Birmingham ITSO and second generation
Scotrail and EMT ITSOs <sigh>.
Presumably when you are issuing millions of said things there is a lot
of pressure to minimise features and hence costs, unfortunately that
can be a false economy (but may be better than the usual results of
current technology designed by committee)
I think with Oyster there's also a fundamental change in philosophy.

Instead of the cards becoming ever smarter, to incorporate new features,
they'll get dumber, with the smarts moving to the the back office systems.
That's the only way to incorporate some of the new features, and means that
Oyster cards become functionally equivalent to debit cards.

It should also mean modern Oyster cards are cheaper and don't become
obsolete so soon. And there won't be a plethora of cards of different
generations to support.
Clive Page
2017-07-23 09:18:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
I haven't over-complicated it, I am reproducing exactly the steps described on the appropriate page of the official web-site.
Post by Recliner
Online
Visitor Centres
Oyster Ticket Stops
All Tube, London Overground and TfL Rail stations
Some DLR and National Rail stations
Oyster sales line (0343 222 1234, TfL call charges)
The Tramlink Shop, Croydon
Yes, but in most of these cases you need to pay a new deposit for a new card - by phoning their help-line, as I understood it, you could get a *replacement* for your existing card without having to pay a new deposit then reclaim the old one. And saying it can be done "instantly online" when you then have to wait for days (or maybe weeks given the inefficiencies of our privatised Royal Mail) for a new one, is a new meaning of the word "instantly".


The other stages are then necessary, exactly as I described, to transfer the old balance and finally to get the existing Railcard discount transferred. I stand by my claim that it is a four-stage process, and that it is ridiculously complicated.

You may be right that we shall all forced to do it eventually. For the present I can see absolutely no advantage for me as an occasional Oyster card user. If you can see any advantage, please describe it.
--
Clive Page
Clank
2017-07-24 17:53:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Clive Page
I haven't over-complicated it, I am reproducing exactly the steps described on the appropriate page of the official web-site.
Post by Recliner
Online
Visitor Centres
Oyster Ticket Stops
All Tube, London Overground and TfL Rail stations
Some DLR and National Rail stations
Oyster sales line (0343 222 1234, TfL call charges)
The Tramlink Shop, Croydon
Yes, but in most of these cases you need to pay a new deposit for a new card - by phoning their help-line, as I understood it, you could get a *replacement* for your existing card without having to pay a new deposit then reclaim the old one. And saying it can be done "instantly online" when you then have to wait for days (or maybe weeks given the inefficiencies of our privatised Royal Mail) for a new one, is a new meaning of the word "instantly".
The other stages are then necessary, exactly as I described, to transfer the old balance and finally to get the existing Railcard discount transferred. I stand by my claim that it is a four-stage process, and that it is ridiculously complicated.
You may be right that we shall all forced to do it eventually.
By the time you're forced to, I'd hope you would be able to tie things like
season tickets and Railcard discounts to a regular contactless card, and
eliminate the need for the "get a replacement card" part entirely. I threw
my Oyster (first generation ;)) away years ago and just use contactless in
London. Since the Amex card I use is associated with my TFL account and I
can view my travel history etc. online just like an Oyster, I don't see why
at some point they won't be able to also include things like Railcard
discounts once everything moves to the back office.
Recliner
2017-07-24 21:45:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Clank
Post by Clive Page
I haven't over-complicated it, I am reproducing exactly the steps
described on the appropriate page of the official web-site.
Post by Recliner
Online
Visitor Centres
Oyster Ticket Stops
All Tube, London Overground and TfL Rail stations
Some DLR and National Rail stations
Oyster sales line (0343 222 1234, TfL call charges)
The Tramlink Shop, Croydon
Yes, but in most of these cases you need to pay a new deposit for a new
card - by phoning their help-line, as I understood it, you could get a
*replacement* for your existing card without having to pay a new deposit
then reclaim the old one. And saying it can be done "instantly online"
when you then have to wait for days (or maybe weeks given the
inefficiencies of our privatised Royal Mail) for a new one, is a new
meaning of the word "instantly".
The other stages are then necessary, exactly as I described, to transfer
the old balance and finally to get the existing Railcard discount
transferred. I stand by my claim that it is a four-stage process, and
that it is ridiculously complicated.
You may be right that we shall all forced to do it eventually.
By the time you're forced to, I'd hope you would be able to tie things like
season tickets and Railcard discounts to a regular contactless card, and
eliminate the need for the "get a replacement card" part entirely. I threw
my Oyster (first generation ;)) away years ago and just use contactless in
London. Since the Amex card I use is associated with my TFL account and I
can view my travel history etc. online just like an Oyster, I don't see why
at some point they won't be able to also include things like Railcard
discounts once everything moves to the back office.
I think that's the idea. Such things are probably much easier to implement
on large central servers without the processing/memory/response time
constraints of a smart card.
Paul Corfield
2017-07-24 11:36:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Clive Page
Post by n***@soods.freeserve.co.uk
- TfL is currently contacting regular Oyster card users with a first-generation card through Oyster online to encourage them to upgrade their card prior to the release of the new TfL app
Is there any way that I can tell whether I have a first generation card?
--
Clive Page
I have seen all the later posts so will add only one other aspect. If you have a TfL online account with your Oyster Card(s) registered then the website tells you very clearly if the register card(s) are first generation. My PAYG Oyster Card is first generation (I'd checked anyway) and the Oyster website tells me this very clearly.

I'm a bit like you in that my usage of that card is low and the App is unlikely to bring much advantage as I may only top up once a year. I also have a special discount set on it which means I'd have to go a LU station to get the details transferred anyway. I'll likely not bother to change cards unless my 1st gen card fails.

--
Paul C
via Google
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-07-24 15:24:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Paul Corfield
Post by n***@soods.freeserve.co.uk
- TfL is currently contacting regular Oyster card users with a
first-generation card through Oyster online to encourage them to
upgrade their card prior to the release of the new TfL app
Is there any way that I can tell whether I have a first generation card?
I have seen all the later posts so will add only one other aspect. If
you have a TfL online account with your Oyster Card(s) registered
then the website tells you very clearly if the register card(s) are
first generation. My PAYG Oyster Card is first generation (I'd
checked anyway) and the Oyster website tells me this very clearly.
I see it does now. When did that change? My account lists 4 Oyster cards,
two first generation, two not. All the cards are over 5 years old.
Post by Paul Corfield
I'm a bit like you in that my usage of that card is low and the App
is unlikely to bring much advantage as I may only top up once a year.
I also have a special discount set on it which means I'd have to go a
LU station to get the details transferred anyway. I'll likely not
bother to change cards unless my 1st gen card fails.
Assuming it's the usual iOS- and Android-only app I'll never use it, having
a Windows phone.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Clank
2017-07-24 17:56:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Paul Corfield
Post by n***@soods.freeserve.co.uk
- TfL is currently contacting regular Oyster card users with a
first-generation card through Oyster online to encourage them to
upgrade their card prior to the release of the new TfL app
Is there any way that I can tell whether I have a first generation card?
I have seen all the later posts so will add only one other aspect. If
you have a TfL online account with your Oyster Card(s) registered
then the website tells you very clearly if the register card(s) are
first generation. My PAYG Oyster Card is first generation (I'd
checked anyway) and the Oyster website tells me this very clearly.
I see it does now. When did that change? My account lists 4 Oyster cards,
two first generation, two not. All the cards are over 5 years old.
Post by Paul Corfield
I'm a bit like you in that my usage of that card is low and the App
is unlikely to bring much advantage as I may only top up once a year.
I also have a special discount set on it which means I'd have to go a
LU station to get the details transferred anyway. I'll likely not
bother to change cards unless my 1st gen card fails.
Assuming it's the usual iOS- and Android-only app I'll never use it, having
a Windows phone.
You will not have a Windows phone forever.

(Sadly; I actually really liked the Windows phones I had - an HTC and two
Lumias - I thought there was an awful lot good about them... But, it's
dead Jim. We need to move on.)
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-07-21 11:49:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
In article
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In message
september.org>, at 09:32:55 on Fri, 21 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
The current cards are obsolete and need to be phased out.
All of them, or just the first-generation?
Just the first generation.
Only if you want to use an app which is presumably not for Windows, just for
iOS or Android. If you want to get railcard discounts on Pay-As-You-Go fares
you can go on using the first-generation Oyster, it seems. Not that the TfL
web site makes that clear.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Mine has a "D" on the back,
and is from 2014. That was when Barclays threw the "Onepulse" card
under the bus. Hey, another day, another smartcard.
I have 2 with a "D" on the back and two without. Unfortunately I think it's
the two with the "D" that are cancelled. Must investigate when I'm in London
on Saturday.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-07-21 21:54:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
In article
Post by Recliner
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Roland Perry
In message
september.org>, at 09:32:55 on Fri, 21 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
The current cards are obsolete and need to be phased out.
All of them, or just the first-generation? Mine has a "D" on the back,
and is from 2014. That was when Barclays threw the "Onepulse" card
under the bus. Hey, another day, another smartcard.
I'm on my third generation Birmingham ITSO and second generation
Scotrail and EMT ITSOs <sigh>.
Presumably when you are issuing millions of said things there is a
lot of pressure to minimise features and hence costs,
unfortunately that can be a false economy (but may be better than
the usual results of current technology designed by committee)
I think with Oyster there's also a fundamental change in philosophy.
Instead of the cards becoming ever smarter, to incorporate new features,
they'll get dumber, with the smarts moving to the the back office systems.
That's the only way to incorporate some of the new features, and means
that Oyster cards become functionally equivalent to debit cards.
It should also mean modern Oyster cards are cheaper and don't become
obsolete so soon. And there won't be a plethora of cards of different
generations to support.
When will the back office system changes allow registered Contactless users
to get railcard discounts?
--
Colin Rosenstiel
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-07-25 12:01:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
In article
Post by Recliner
Post by Clank
Post by Clive Page
I haven't over-complicated it, I am reproducing exactly the steps
described on the appropriate page of the official web-site.
Post by Recliner
Online
Visitor Centres
Oyster Ticket Stops
All Tube, London Overground and TfL Rail stations
Some DLR and National Rail stations
Oyster sales line (0343 222 1234, TfL call charges)
The Tramlink Shop, Croydon
Yes, but in most of these cases you need to pay a new deposit for a new
card - by phoning their help-line, as I understood it, you could get a
*replacement* for your existing card without having to pay a new
deposit then reclaim the old one. And saying it can be done "instantly
online" when you then have to wait for days (or maybe weeks given the
inefficiencies of our privatised Royal Mail) for a new one, is a new
meaning of the word "instantly".
The other stages are then necessary, exactly as I described, to
transfer the old balance and finally to get the existing Railcard
discount transferred. I stand by my claim that it is a four-stage
process, and that it is ridiculously complicated.
You may be right that we shall all forced to do it eventually.
By the time you're forced to, I'd hope you would be able to tie things
like season tickets and Railcard discounts to a regular contactless
card, and eliminate the need for the "get a replacement card" part
entirely. I threw my Oyster (first generation ;)) away years ago and
just use contactless in London. Since the Amex card I use is associated
with my TFL account and I can view my travel history etc. online just
like an Oyster, I don't see why at some point they won't be able to also
include things like Railcard discounts once everything moves to the back
office.
I think that's the idea. Such things are probably much easier to implement
on large central servers without the processing/memory/response time
constraints of a smart card.
Indeed, but wait until you get a Senior Railcard. You only get railcard
discounts with real Oyster cards, despite the possibility of putting the
flag on at account level.

There is another niche need for Oyster, for people, mostly children, who
can't get contactless cards.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Recliner
2017-07-25 12:13:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
In article
Post by Recliner
Post by Clank
Post by Clive Page
I haven't over-complicated it, I am reproducing exactly the steps
described on the appropriate page of the official web-site.
Post by Recliner
Online
Visitor Centres
Oyster Ticket Stops
All Tube, London Overground and TfL Rail stations
Some DLR and National Rail stations
Oyster sales line (0343 222 1234, TfL call charges)
The Tramlink Shop, Croydon
Yes, but in most of these cases you need to pay a new deposit for a new
card - by phoning their help-line, as I understood it, you could get a
*replacement* for your existing card without having to pay a new
deposit then reclaim the old one. And saying it can be done "instantly
online" when you then have to wait for days (or maybe weeks given the
inefficiencies of our privatised Royal Mail) for a new one, is a new
meaning of the word "instantly".
The other stages are then necessary, exactly as I described, to
transfer the old balance and finally to get the existing Railcard
discount transferred. I stand by my claim that it is a four-stage
process, and that it is ridiculously complicated.
You may be right that we shall all forced to do it eventually.
By the time you're forced to, I'd hope you would be able to tie things
like season tickets and Railcard discounts to a regular contactless
card, and eliminate the need for the "get a replacement card" part
entirely. I threw my Oyster (first generation ;)) away years ago and
just use contactless in London. Since the Amex card I use is associated
with my TFL account and I can view my travel history etc. online just
like an Oyster, I don't see why at some point they won't be able to also
include things like Railcard discounts once everything moves to the back
office.
I think that's the idea. Such things are probably much easier to implement
on large central servers without the processing/memory/response time
constraints of a smart card.
Indeed, but wait until you get a Senior Railcard. You only get railcard
discounts with real Oyster cards, despite the possibility of putting the
flag on at account level.
There is another niche need for Oyster, for people, mostly children, who
can't get contactless cards.
Sure, but all they need is a newish Oyster card; the only cards being
phased out are the first gen Oysters. The idea is that (almost?) all
processing will be done in the back office systems, regardless of the
card type. That will get rid of the current confusion where certain
features are limited to Oyster, and others only to contactless cards.
That's been the plan for some years, and I assume the second gen
Oyster cards were designed with it in mind.
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-07-26 00:37:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
In article
Post by Recliner
Post by Clank
Post by Clive Page
I haven't over-complicated it, I am reproducing exactly the steps
described on the appropriate page of the official web-site.
Post by Recliner
Online
Visitor Centres
Oyster Ticket Stops
All Tube, London Overground and TfL Rail stations
Some DLR and National Rail stations
Oyster sales line (0343 222 1234, TfL call charges)
The Tramlink Shop, Croydon
Yes, but in most of these cases you need to pay a new deposit for a
new card - by phoning their help-line, as I understood it, you could
get a *replacement* for your existing card without having to pay a
new deposit then reclaim the old one. And saying it can be done
"instantly online" when you then have to wait for days (or maybe
weeks given the inefficiencies of our privatised Royal Mail) for a
new one, is a new meaning of the word "instantly".
The other stages are then necessary, exactly as I described, to
transfer the old balance and finally to get the existing Railcard
discount transferred. I stand by my claim that it is a four-stage
process, and that it is ridiculously complicated.
You may be right that we shall all forced to do it eventually.
By the time you're forced to, I'd hope you would be able to tie
things like season tickets and Railcard discounts to a regular
contactless card, and eliminate the need for the "get a replacement
card" part entirely. I threw my Oyster (first generation ;)) away
years ago and just use contactless in London. Since the Amex card I
use is associated with my TFL account and I can view my travel
history etc. online just like an Oyster, I don't see why at some
point they won't be able to also include things like Railcard
discounts once everything moves to the back office.
I think that's the idea. Such things are probably much easier to
implement on large central servers without the processing/memory/
response time constraints of a smart card.
Indeed, but wait until you get a Senior Railcard. You only get railcard
discounts with real Oyster cards, despite the possibility of putting the
flag on at account level.
There is another niche need for Oyster, for people, mostly children, who
can't get contactless cards.
Sure, but all they need is a newish Oyster card; the only cards being
phased out are the first gen Oysters. The idea is that (almost?) all
processing will be done in the back office systems, regardless of the
card type. That will get rid of the current confusion where certain
features are limited to Oyster, and others only to contactless cards.
That's been the plan for some years, and I assume the second gen
Oyster cards were designed with it in mind.
The big gap now is that contactless technology, which will be used by second
generation Oyster cards soon, doesn't handle railcard discounts.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Recliner
2017-07-26 12:20:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
In article
Post by Recliner
Post by Clank
Post by Clive Page
I haven't over-complicated it, I am reproducing exactly the steps
described on the appropriate page of the official web-site.
Post by Recliner
Online
Visitor Centres
Oyster Ticket Stops
All Tube, London Overground and TfL Rail stations
Some DLR and National Rail stations
Oyster sales line (0343 222 1234, TfL call charges)
The Tramlink Shop, Croydon
Yes, but in most of these cases you need to pay a new deposit for a
new card - by phoning their help-line, as I understood it, you could
get a *replacement* for your existing card without having to pay a
new deposit then reclaim the old one. And saying it can be done
"instantly online" when you then have to wait for days (or maybe
weeks given the inefficiencies of our privatised Royal Mail) for a
new one, is a new meaning of the word "instantly".
The other stages are then necessary, exactly as I described, to
transfer the old balance and finally to get the existing Railcard
discount transferred. I stand by my claim that it is a four-stage
process, and that it is ridiculously complicated.
You may be right that we shall all forced to do it eventually.
By the time you're forced to, I'd hope you would be able to tie
things like season tickets and Railcard discounts to a regular
contactless card, and eliminate the need for the "get a replacement
card" part entirely. I threw my Oyster (first generation ;)) away
years ago and just use contactless in London. Since the Amex card I
use is associated with my TFL account and I can view my travel
history etc. online just like an Oyster, I don't see why at some
point they won't be able to also include things like Railcard
discounts once everything moves to the back office.
I think that's the idea. Such things are probably much easier to
implement on large central servers without the processing/memory/
response time constraints of a smart card.
Indeed, but wait until you get a Senior Railcard. You only get railcard
discounts with real Oyster cards, despite the possibility of putting the
flag on at account level.
There is another niche need for Oyster, for people, mostly children, who
can't get contactless cards.
Sure, but all they need is a newish Oyster card; the only cards being
phased out are the first gen Oysters. The idea is that (almost?) all
processing will be done in the back office systems, regardless of the
card type. That will get rid of the current confusion where certain
features are limited to Oyster, and others only to contactless cards.
That's been the plan for some years, and I assume the second gen
Oyster cards were designed with it in mind.
The big gap now is that contactless technology, which will be used by second
generation Oyster cards soon, doesn't handle railcard discounts.
I don't think contactless technology is the issue. It's just that TfL
hasn't got around to implementing railcard discounts in the back
office systems. It seems to have been concentrating first on providing
new features, rather than replicating existing ones.
Roland Perry
2017-07-26 15:04:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
The big gap now is that contactless technology, which will be used by second
generation Oyster cards soon, doesn't handle railcard discounts.
I don't think contactless technology is the issue. It's just that TfL
hasn't got around to implementing railcard discounts in the back
office systems. It seems to have been concentrating first on providing
new features, rather than replicating existing ones.
On a quite galactic timescale. What is it with their IT people that such
a simple thing takes so long? Get your baseball bats out, Mr Mayor.

And people think I'm being unreasonable to spurn expections that
e-ticketing with orders of magnitude more bells and whistles will turn
up overnight.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-07-26 15:16:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
The big gap now is that contactless technology, which will be used by second
generation Oyster cards soon, doesn't handle railcard discounts.
I don't think contactless technology is the issue. It's just that TfL
hasn't got around to implementing railcard discounts in the back
office systems. It seems to have been concentrating first on providing
new features, rather than replicating existing ones.
On a quite galactic timescale. What is it with their IT people that such
a simple thing takes so long? Get your baseball bats out, Mr Mayor.
Isn't Oyster run by Cubic for TfL? Presumably it implements the features
TfL contracts it to do.
Post by Roland Perry
And people think I'm being unreasonable to spurn expections that
e-ticketing with orders of magnitude more bells and whistles will turn
up overnight.
Roland Perry
2017-07-26 16:59:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
In message
<813613433.522774987.106770.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 15:16:29 on Wed, 26 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
The big gap now is that contactless technology, which will be used by second
generation Oyster cards soon, doesn't handle railcard discounts.
I don't think contactless technology is the issue. It's just that TfL
hasn't got around to implementing railcard discounts in the back
office systems. It seems to have been concentrating first on providing
new features, rather than replicating existing ones.
On a quite galactic timescale. What is it with their IT people that such
a simple thing takes so long? Get your baseball bats out, Mr Mayor.
Isn't Oyster run by Cubic for TfL? Presumably it implements the features
TfL contracts it to do.
OK. So now we know whom to apply the baseball bat to.

(Although I thought Cubic only did the ITSO integration, bicbw, and that
was also disastrously late).
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-07-26 21:07:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
In message
september.org>, at 15:16:29 on Wed, 26 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
The big gap now is that contactless technology, which will be used by
second generation Oyster cards soon, doesn't handle railcard
discounts.
I don't think contactless technology is the issue. It's just that TfL
hasn't got around to implementing railcard discounts in the back
office systems. It seems to have been concentrating first on providing
new features, rather than replicating existing ones.
On a quite galactic timescale. What is it with their IT people that
such a simple thing takes so long? Get your baseball bats out, Mr
Mayor.
Isn't Oyster run by Cubic for TfL? Presumably it implements the features
TfL contracts it to do.
OK. So now we know whom to apply the baseball bat to.
(Although I thought Cubic only did the ITSO integration, bicbw, and
that was also disastrously late).
As Paul Corfield would no doubt tell us for sure, it's Cubic's system from
the start, surely?
--
Colin Rosenstiel
tim...
2017-07-27 08:18:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
In message
september.org>, at 15:16:29 on Wed, 26 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
The big gap now is that contactless technology, which will be used by
second generation Oyster cards soon, doesn't handle railcard
discounts.
I don't think contactless technology is the issue. It's just that TfL
hasn't got around to implementing railcard discounts in the back
office systems. It seems to have been concentrating first on providing
new features, rather than replicating existing ones.
On a quite galactic timescale. What is it with their IT people that
such a simple thing takes so long? Get your baseball bats out, Mr
Mayor.
Isn't Oyster run by Cubic for TfL? Presumably it implements the features
TfL contracts it to do.
OK. So now we know whom to apply the baseball bat to.
(Although I thought Cubic only did the ITSO integration, bicbw, and
that was also disastrously late).
As Paul Corfield would no doubt tell us for sure, it's Cubic's system from
the start, surely?
yep

every little step is theirs
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
--
Colin Rosenstiel
tim...
2017-07-26 19:31:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
The big gap now is that contactless technology, which will be used by second
generation Oyster cards soon, doesn't handle railcard discounts.
I don't think contactless technology is the issue. It's just that TfL
hasn't got around to implementing railcard discounts in the back
office systems. It seems to have been concentrating first on providing
new features, rather than replicating existing ones.
On a quite galactic timescale. What is it with their IT people that such a
simple thing takes so long? Get your baseball bats out, Mr Mayor.
for the same reason that updates to mobile phone networks takes so long to
get implemented

the new software has to be rolled out to thousands of machines

which

a) costs quite a bit on money to do
b) costs even more to undo if you find out that you have cocked up your
change

the first leads to a reluctance to roll out changes on an individual basis,
so they are stocked up until you can implement 6, 8 or 10 of them at the
same time

and the second means that you really really do have to do rigorous testing
(in the case of the mobile networks a year of testing, I suspect that TfL
work with a smaller number)

tim
Roland Perry
2017-08-01 09:05:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
It's just that TfL
hasn't got around to implementing railcard discounts in the back
office systems. It seems to have been concentrating first on providing
new features, rather than replicating existing ones.
On a quite galactic timescale. What is it with their IT people that
such a simple thing takes so long? Get your baseball bats out, Mr
Mayor.
for the same reason that updates to mobile phone networks takes so long
to get implemented
the new software has to be rolled out to thousands of machines
It's only one machine - in the back office.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-07-27 10:58:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
The big gap now is that contactless technology, which will be used by second
generation Oyster cards soon, doesn't handle railcard discounts.
I don't think contactless technology is the issue. It's just that TfL
hasn't got around to implementing railcard discounts in the back
office systems. It seems to have been concentrating first on providing
new features, rather than replicating existing ones.
On a quite galactic timescale. What is it with their IT people that such
a simple thing takes so long? Get your baseball bats out, Mr Mayor.
And people think I'm being unreasonable to spurn expections that
e-ticketing with orders of magnitude more bells and whistles will turn
up overnight.
I'm sure you'll love this proposal, then?
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/facial-recognition-technology-signals-the-end-of-train-tickets-9n329rxq9?shareToken=f42d1469eaec81ba631834332f3674a7>
tim...
2017-07-27 11:49:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
The big gap now is that contactless technology, which will be used by second
generation Oyster cards soon, doesn't handle railcard discounts.
I don't think contactless technology is the issue. It's just that TfL
hasn't got around to implementing railcard discounts in the back
office systems. It seems to have been concentrating first on providing
new features, rather than replicating existing ones.
On a quite galactic timescale. What is it with their IT people that such
a simple thing takes so long? Get your baseball bats out, Mr Mayor.
And people think I'm being unreasonable to spurn expections that
e-ticketing with orders of magnitude more bells and whistles will turn
up overnight.
I'm sure you'll love this proposal, then?
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/facial-recognition-technology-signals-the-end-of-train-tickets-9n329rxq9?shareToken=f42d1469eaec81ba631834332f3674a7>
I hope these "fast track" lines are faster than the ones at border control,
cos they are glacial.

and they have the advantage of having the picture that they are comparing
with supplied to them, they don't have to go searching a database of 20
million people for it.

I'm skeptical

tim
Recliner
2017-07-27 12:01:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
The big gap now is that contactless technology, which will be used by second
generation Oyster cards soon, doesn't handle railcard discounts.
I don't think contactless technology is the issue. It's just that TfL
hasn't got around to implementing railcard discounts in the back
office systems. It seems to have been concentrating first on providing
new features, rather than replicating existing ones.
On a quite galactic timescale. What is it with their IT people that such
a simple thing takes so long? Get your baseball bats out, Mr Mayor.
And people think I'm being unreasonable to spurn expections that
e-ticketing with orders of magnitude more bells and whistles will turn
up overnight.
I'm sure you'll love this proposal, then?
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/facial-recognition-technology-signals-the-end-of-train-tickets-9n329rxq9?shareToken=f42d1469eaec81ba631834332f3674a7>
I hope these "fast track" lines are faster than the ones at border control,
cos they are glacial.
and they have the advantage of having the picture that they are comparing
with supplied to them, they don't have to go searching a database of 20
million people for it.
I'm skeptical
Me too: it's very hard to envisage these scanners being nearly as fast as
an Oyster card reader.
Roland Perry
2017-07-28 13:10:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
In message
<2123577762.522846101.075882.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-sept
ember.org>, at 10:58:57 on Thu, 27 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
And people think I'm being unreasonable to spurn expections that
e-ticketing with orders of magnitude more bells and whistles will turn
up overnight.
I'm sure you'll love this proposal, then?
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/facial-recognition-technology-signals-the-end-of-train-tickets-9n329rxq9?shareToken=f42d1469eaec81ba631834
332f3674a7>
As they say "Privacy is dead, get over it".

Apparently an audit trail for one's travel is also dead for the very
person who needs it most - the paying passenger.

In other news, I've received a brand new set of Tesco Loyalty Card
keyfobs, which they claim are a vast improvement over the old ones.

Except the old ones were recognised by their self-service tills and -
CAN YOU EVEN START TO BELIEVE THIS - the new one's aren't.

It's way beyond "you couldn't make this up".
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-07-28 21:53:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 10:58:57 on Thu, 27 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
And people think I'm being unreasonable to spurn expections that
e-ticketing with orders of magnitude more bells and whistles will turn
up overnight.
I'm sure you'll love this proposal, then?
<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/facial-recognition-technology-signals-the-end-of-train-tickets-9n329rxq9?shareToken=f42d1469eaec81ba631834
332f3674a7>
As they say "Privacy is dead, get over it".
Apparently an audit trail for one's travel is also dead for the very
person who needs it most - the paying passenger.
In other news, I've received a brand new set of Tesco Loyalty Card
keyfobs, which they claim are a vast improvement over the old ones.
Except the old ones were recognised by their self-service tills and -
CAN YOU EVEN START TO BELIEVE THIS - the new one's aren't.
It's way beyond "you couldn't make this up".
That's interesting. I've received them too, but have yet to use them.
Roland Perry
2017-07-29 15:54:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
In message
<1944365906.522971486.416270.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-sept
ember.org>, at 21:53:19 on Fri, 28 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In other news, I've received a brand new set of Tesco Loyalty Card
keyfobs, which they claim are a vast improvement over the old ones.
Except the old ones were recognised by their self-service tills and -
CAN YOU EVEN START TO BELIEVE THIS - the new one's aren't.
It's way beyond "you couldn't make this up".
That's interesting. I've received them too, but have yet to use them.
They've at least fitted newer barcode scanners on the self-service till
I used yesterday (different branch of Tesco).
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-07-31 13:52:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 21:53:19 on Fri, 28 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In other news, I've received a brand new set of Tesco Loyalty Card
keyfobs, which they claim are a vast improvement over the old ones.
Except the old ones were recognised by their self-service tills and -
CAN YOU EVEN START TO BELIEVE THIS - the new one's aren't.
It's way beyond "you couldn't make this up".
That's interesting. I've received them too, but have yet to use them.
They've at least fitted newer barcode scanners on the self-service till
I used yesterday (different branch of Tesco).
I don't think I've ever used a self-service Tesco till.
Roland Perry
2017-07-31 14:13:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In other news, I've received a brand new set of Tesco Loyalty Card
keyfobs, which they claim are a vast improvement over the old ones.
Except the old ones were recognised by their self-service tills and -
CAN YOU EVEN START TO BELIEVE THIS - the new one's aren't.
It's way beyond "you couldn't make this up".
That's interesting. I've received them too, but have yet to use them.
They've at least fitted newer barcode scanners on the self-service till
I used yesterday (different branch of Tesco).
I don't think I've ever used a self-service Tesco till.
At our mid-sized superstore they are the only ones which are open
overnight.

I prefer to use them because you can check that the right price is being
charged for discounted items. Far too often the scanners pick up the
non-discounted price, and human till operators never check.
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2017-07-31 17:28:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 21:53:19 on Fri, 28 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In other news, I've received a brand new set of Tesco Loyalty Card
keyfobs, which they claim are a vast improvement over the old ones.
Except the old ones were recognised by their self-service tills and -
CAN YOU EVEN START TO BELIEVE THIS - the new one's aren't.
It's way beyond "you couldn't make this up".
That's interesting. I've received them too, but have yet to use them.
They've at least fitted newer barcode scanners on the self-service till
I used yesterday (different branch of Tesco).
I don't think I've ever used a self-service Tesco till.
is the inclusion of Tesco a necessary part of that response?

tim
Recliner
2017-07-31 20:02:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 21:53:19 on Fri, 28 Jul 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In other news, I've received a brand new set of Tesco Loyalty Card
keyfobs, which they claim are a vast improvement over the old ones.
Except the old ones were recognised by their self-service tills and -
CAN YOU EVEN START TO BELIEVE THIS - the new one's aren't.
It's way beyond "you couldn't make this up".
That's interesting. I've received them too, but have yet to use them.
They've at least fitted newer barcode scanners on the self-service till
I used yesterday (different branch of Tesco).
I don't think I've ever used a self-service Tesco till.
is the inclusion of Tesco a necessary part of that response?
Well, I have reluctantly used other self-service tills, so, yes. Also,
this thread is specifically about changes to Tesco's Clubcard.
Roland Perry
2017-08-01 09:07:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In other news, I've received a brand new set of Tesco Loyalty Card
keyfobs, which they claim are a vast improvement over the old ones.
Except the old ones were recognised by their self-service tills and -
CAN YOU EVEN START TO BELIEVE THIS - the new one's aren't.
It's way beyond "you couldn't make this up".
That's interesting. I've received them too, but have yet to use them.
They've at least fitted newer barcode scanners on the self-service till
I used yesterday (different branch of Tesco).
And today, at the petrol station attached to the latter Tesco, with
brand new pumps installed a couple of months ago... yes, they don't work
with the new fobs. <weeps>
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-08-01 10:16:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 10:07:26 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In other news, I've received a brand new set of Tesco Loyalty Card
keyfobs, which they claim are a vast improvement over the old ones.
Except the old ones were recognised by their self-service tills and -
CAN YOU EVEN START TO BELIEVE THIS - the new one's aren't.
It's way beyond "you couldn't make this up".
That's interesting. I've received them too, but have yet to use them.
They've at least fitted newer barcode scanners on the self-service till
I used yesterday (different branch of Tesco).
And today, at the petrol station attached to the latter Tesco, with
brand new pumps installed a couple of months ago... yes, they don't work
with the new fobs. <weeps>
Oh dear, you might actually have to go inside and talk to a human when you pay.
The horror!
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-08-01 10:54:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In other news, I've received a brand new set of Tesco Loyalty Card
keyfobs, which they claim are a vast improvement over the old ones.
Except the old ones were recognised by their self-service tills and -
CAN YOU EVEN START TO BELIEVE THIS - the new one's aren't.
It's way beyond "you couldn't make this up".
That's interesting. I've received them too, but have yet to use them.
They've at least fitted newer barcode scanners on the self-service till
I used yesterday (different branch of Tesco).
And today, at the petrol station attached to the latter Tesco, with
brand new pumps installed a couple of months ago... yes, they don't work
with the new fobs. <weeps>
Oh dear, you might actually have to go inside and talk to a human when you pay.
The horror!
The "inside" isn't manned 24x7. And thanks for confirming my impression
that there's a breed of tech geek who thinks one minor improvement is
justifiable, how ever many negative consequences it has. (And no,
talking to humans isn't one of those - the human's barcode reader
struggled to read the new fob too, increasing the length of the queue).
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-08-01 12:39:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 11:54:11 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Oh dear, you might actually have to go inside and talk to a human when you
pay.
Post by s***@potato.field
The horror!
The "inside" isn't manned 24x7. And thanks for confirming my impression
that there's a breed of tech geek who thinks one minor improvement is
justifiable, how ever many negative consequences it has. (And no,
talking to humans isn't one of those - the human's barcode reader
struggled to read the new fob too, increasing the length of the queue).
So pay by card or cash, whats the problem?

In fact petrol stations are where I get shot of all of my lose change since
you can spend exactly the amount you want down to the penny.
--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-08-01 13:35:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Oh dear, you might actually have to go inside and talk to a human when you
pay.
Post by s***@potato.field
The horror!
The "inside" isn't manned 24x7. And thanks for confirming my impression
that there's a breed of tech geek who thinks one minor improvement is
justifiable, how ever many negative consequences it has. (And no,
talking to humans isn't one of those - the human's barcode reader
struggled to read the new fob too, increasing the length of the queue).
So pay by card or cash, whats the problem?
Do keep up; it's their *loyalty* card, not a payment card.
--
Roland Perry
s***@potato.field
2017-08-01 13:40:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 14:35:53 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Oh dear, you might actually have to go inside and talk to a human when you
pay.
Post by s***@potato.field
The horror!
The "inside" isn't manned 24x7. And thanks for confirming my impression
that there's a breed of tech geek who thinks one minor improvement is
justifiable, how ever many negative consequences it has. (And no,
talking to humans isn't one of those - the human's barcode reader
struggled to read the new fob too, increasing the length of the queue).
So pay by card or cash, whats the problem?
Do keep up; it's their *loyalty* card, not a payment card.
Fair enough.

Tesco have their own bank however so it wouldn't be beyond the realms of
possibilty for them to have to release a smart card/fob for payment.

--
Spud
Roland Perry
2017-08-01 13:54:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
The "inside" isn't manned 24x7. And thanks for confirming my impression
that there's a breed of tech geek who thinks one minor improvement is
justifiable, how ever many negative consequences it has. (And no,
talking to humans isn't one of those - the human's barcode reader
struggled to read the new fob too, increasing the length of the queue).
So pay by card or cash, whats the problem?
Do keep up; it's their *loyalty* card, not a payment card.
Fair enough.
Tesco have their own bank
The shop people claim the ATMs are "nothing to do with us", so it could
be a branding thing like Virgin Trains being nothing to do with Virgin
Bank.
Post by s***@potato.field
however so it wouldn't be beyond the realms of
possibilty for them to have to release a smart card/fob for payment.
I have always thought they should have a combined Credit/Loyalty card.
Maybe there's some regulatory issue with it.
--
Roland Perry
Richard J.
2017-08-01 14:30:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
The "inside" isn't manned 24x7. And thanks for confirming my impression
that there's a breed of tech geek who thinks one minor improvement is
justifiable, how ever many negative consequences it has. (And no,
talking to humans isn't one of those - the human's barcode reader
struggled to read the new fob too, increasing the length of the queue).
So pay by card or cash, whats the problem?
Do keep up; it's their *loyalty* card, not a payment card.
Fair enough.
Tesco have their own bank
The shop people claim the ATMs are "nothing to do with us", so it could
be a branding thing like Virgin Trains being nothing to do with Virgin
Bank.
Post by s***@potato.field
however so it wouldn't be beyond the realms of
possibilty for them to have to release a smart card/fob for payment.
I have always thought they should have a combined Credit/Loyalty card.
Maybe there's some regulatory issue with it.
John Lewis manage to have a credit card with a reward scheme that favours purchases in John Lewis and Waitrose, so there's evidently no regulatory issue with that. However they also have a separate loyalty card for John Lewis, and yet another one for Waitrose ("My Waitrose"). So full loyalty to the John Lewis group implies three cards in your wallet. :-(
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)
Recliner
2017-08-01 14:36:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Richard J.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
The "inside" isn't manned 24x7. And thanks for confirming my impression
that there's a breed of tech geek who thinks one minor improvement is
justifiable, how ever many negative consequences it has. (And no,
talking to humans isn't one of those - the human's barcode reader
struggled to read the new fob too, increasing the length of the queue).
So pay by card or cash, whats the problem?
Do keep up; it's their *loyalty* card, not a payment card.
Fair enough.
Tesco have their own bank
The shop people claim the ATMs are "nothing to do with us", so it could
be a branding thing like Virgin Trains being nothing to do with Virgin
Bank.
Post by s***@potato.field
however so it wouldn't be beyond the realms of
possibilty for them to have to release a smart card/fob for payment.
I have always thought they should have a combined Credit/Loyalty card.
Maybe there's some regulatory issue with it.
John Lewis manage to have a credit card with a reward scheme that favours
purchases in John Lewis and Waitrose, so there's evidently no regulatory issue with that.
Indeed not; Tesco implemented this idea decades ago, but Roland appears not
to have noticed the ad by every checkout.
Post by Richard J.
However they also have a separate loyalty card for John Lewis, and yet
another one for Waitrose ("My Waitrose"). So full loyalty to the John
Lewis group implies three cards in your wallet. :-(
Why not one of these?
https://www.johnlewisfinance.com/partnership-card/benefits.html
Richard J.
2017-08-01 14:50:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Recliner
Post by Richard J.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
The "inside" isn't manned 24x7. And thanks for confirming my impression
that there's a breed of tech geek who thinks one minor improvement is
justifiable, how ever many negative consequences it has. (And no,
talking to humans isn't one of those - the human's barcode reader
struggled to read the new fob too, increasing the length of the queue).
So pay by card or cash, whats the problem?
Do keep up; it's their *loyalty* card, not a payment card.
Fair enough.
Tesco have their own bank
The shop people claim the ATMs are "nothing to do with us", so it could
be a branding thing like Virgin Trains being nothing to do with Virgin
Bank.
Post by s***@potato.field
however so it wouldn't be beyond the realms of
possibilty for them to have to release a smart card/fob for payment.
I have always thought they should have a combined Credit/Loyalty card.
Maybe there's some regulatory issue with it.
John Lewis manage to have a credit card with a reward scheme that favours
purchases in John Lewis and Waitrose, so there's evidently no regulatory issue with that.
Indeed not; Tesco implemented this idea decades ago, but Roland appears not
to have noticed the ad by every checkout.
Post by Richard J.
However they also have a separate loyalty card for John Lewis, and yet
another one for Waitrose ("My Waitrose"). So full loyalty to the John
Lewis group implies three cards in your wallet. :-(
Why not one of these?
https://www.johnlewisfinance.com/partnership-card/benefits.html
That's the credit card that I referred to, which offers reward points and a credit voucher 3 times a year. But the MyWaitrose loyalty card also offers additional targeted price reductions on a number of items, including the ability to choose 20 items on which you get reductions every week. Presumably the John Lewis loyalty card has something similar, but my wallet is suffering from plastic overload.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)
Recliner
2017-08-01 14:50:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Richard J.
Post by Recliner
Post by Richard J.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
The "inside" isn't manned 24x7. And thanks for confirming my impression
that there's a breed of tech geek who thinks one minor improvement is
justifiable, how ever many negative consequences it has. (And no,
talking to humans isn't one of those - the human's barcode reader
struggled to read the new fob too, increasing the length of the queue).
So pay by card or cash, whats the problem?
Do keep up; it's their *loyalty* card, not a payment card.
Fair enough.
Tesco have their own bank
The shop people claim the ATMs are "nothing to do with us", so it could
be a branding thing like Virgin Trains being nothing to do with Virgin
Bank.
Post by s***@potato.field
however so it wouldn't be beyond the realms of
possibilty for them to have to release a smart card/fob for payment.
I have always thought they should have a combined Credit/Loyalty card.
Maybe there's some regulatory issue with it.
John Lewis manage to have a credit card with a reward scheme that favours
purchases in John Lewis and Waitrose, so there's evidently no regulatory issue with that.
Indeed not; Tesco implemented this idea decades ago, but Roland appears not
to have noticed the ad by every checkout.
Post by Richard J.
However they also have a separate loyalty card for John Lewis, and yet
another one for Waitrose ("My Waitrose"). So full loyalty to the John
Lewis group implies three cards in your wallet. :-(
Why not one of these?
https://www.johnlewisfinance.com/partnership-card/benefits.html
That's the credit card that I referred to, which offers reward points and
a credit voucher 3 times a year. But the MyWaitrose loyalty card also
offers additional targeted price reductions on a number of items,
including the ability to choose 20 items on which you get reductions
every week. Presumably the John Lewis loyalty card has something
similar, but my wallet is suffering from plastic overload.
I think the Partnership card doubles as both a JLP loyalty card and credit
card, but I agree that it ought to be able to also act as a myWaitrose
card.
Roland Perry
2017-08-01 17:41:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
In message
<397739309.523291028.577935.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 14:36:44 on Tue, 1 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Richard J.
John Lewis manage to have a credit card with a reward scheme that favours
purchases in John Lewis and Waitrose, so there's evidently no regulatory issue with that.
Indeed not; Tesco implemented this idea decades ago, but Roland appears not
to have noticed the ad by every checkout.
That's a different layer:

"[with our credit card] you collect 1 Clubcard point for every
£4 spent (£4 minimum) in Tesco".

The loyalty card collects one point per £1 spent (£1 minimum).

What I don't think they have is a combined card which collects in one
scan for you as follows:

Spend Credit Card points Loyalty Card points Total

£1 0 1 1
£2 0 2 2
£3 0 3 3
£4 0 4 4
£5 1 5 6
£6 1 6 7
£7 1 7 8
£8 1 8 9

etc
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-08-01 23:18:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 14:36:44 on Tue, 1 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Richard J.
John Lewis manage to have a credit card with a reward scheme that favours
purchases in John Lewis and Waitrose, so there's evidently no regulatory issue with that.
Indeed not; Tesco implemented this idea decades ago, but Roland appears not
to have noticed the ad by every checkout.
"[with our credit card] you collect 1 Clubcard point for every
£4 spent (£4 minimum) in Tesco".
The loyalty card collects one point per £1 spent (£1 minimum).
What I don't think they have is a combined card which collects in one
Spend Credit Card points Loyalty Card points Total
£1 0 1 1
£2 0 2 2
£3 0 3 3
£4 0 4 4
£5 1 5 6
£6 1 6 7
£7 1 7 8
£8 1 8 9
Yes they do, but only with a chargeable premium card, which has other perks
which may or may not be worth the rather high fee for you:
<http://www.tescobank.com/credit-cards/premium>
Roland Perry
2017-08-02 06:20:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
In message
<578366904.523322126.310951.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 23:18:25 on Tue, 1 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
What I don't think they have is a combined card which collects in one
Spend Credit Card points Loyalty Card points Total
£1 0 1 1
£2 0 2 2
£3 0 3 3
£4 0 4 4
£5 1 5 6
£6 1 6 7
£7 1 7 8
£8 1 8 9
Yes they do, but only with a chargeable premium card, which has other perks
<http://www.tescobank.com/credit-cards/premium>
56% APR - no thanks!

What I wanted was a regular Credit Card without the extra perks,
combined with the clubcard.

If people remember the Onepulse (a Barclaycard with Oyster) combining
two functions in one card doesn't have a very good track record.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-08-02 08:11:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 23:18:25 on Tue, 1 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
What I don't think they have is a combined card which collects in one
Spend Credit Card points Loyalty Card points Total
£1 0 1 1
£2 0 2 2
£3 0 3 3
£4 0 4 4
£5 1 5 6
£6 1 6 7
£7 1 7 8
£8 1 8 9
Yes they do, but only with a chargeable premium card, which has other perks
<http://www.tescobank.com/credit-cards/premium>
56% APR - no thanks!
Surely you don't pay credit card interest? And if you don't, why worry
about the rate?
Post by Roland Perry
What I wanted was a regular Credit Card without the extra perks,
combined with the clubcard.
Yes, that's a reasonable request, and it's slightly odd that none of their
several cards offers it. I suppose the bank is mainly interested in making
money from lending people money at high rates, while the store's Clubcard
people are happy to offer their card free in return for all the marketing
data you provide, plus the extra sales they make from coupons. They haven't
managed to combine both sets of completely different objectives in one
card.
Roland Perry
2017-08-02 08:47:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
In message
<2137715518.523354034.800921.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-sept
ember.org>, at 08:11:34 on Wed, 2 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 23:18:25 on Tue, 1 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
What I don't think they have is a combined card which collects in one
Spend Credit Card points Loyalty Card points Total
£1 0 1 1
£2 0 2 2
£3 0 3 3
£4 0 4 4
£5 1 5 6
£6 1 6 7
£7 1 7 8
£8 1 8 9
Yes they do, but only with a chargeable premium card, which has other perks
<http://www.tescobank.com/credit-cards/premium>
56% APR - no thanks!
Surely you don't pay credit card interest? And if you don't, why worry
about the rate?
Because it puts their business model into a rather poor context.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
What I wanted was a regular Credit Card without the extra perks,
combined with the clubcard.
Yes, that's a reasonable request, and it's slightly odd that none of their
several cards offers it. I suppose the bank is mainly interested in making
money from lending people money at high rates, while the store's Clubcard
people are happy to offer their card free in return for all the marketing
data you provide, plus the extra sales they make from coupons. They haven't
managed to combine both sets of completely different objectives in one
card.
Perhaps because there's a regulatory issue over "whose data" it is. If
you make one transaction with such a card, does the data about what you
bought belong to the bank or to the Clubcard people.

And while the "Clubcard people" are still owned by Tesco, they did
recently toy with idea of selling it. See this article for potntial
pitfalls:

<https://informationrightsandwrongs.com/2015/01/08/data-protection-implic
ations-of-sale-of-tesco-clubcard-company/>

Tesco also got severely spanked by the ICO for administrative glitches
in the early days of the Clubcard. I think it something to do with
having failed to get permission from the users to send 3rd-party
marketing mailshots. Yes, everyone usually asks that, but they
apparently forgot.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-08-02 11:26:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 08:11:34 on Wed, 2 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 23:18:25 on Tue, 1 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
What I don't think they have is a combined card which collects in one
Spend Credit Card points Loyalty Card points Total
£1 0 1 1
£2 0 2 2
£3 0 3 3
£4 0 4 4
£5 1 5 6
£6 1 6 7
£7 1 7 8
£8 1 8 9
Yes they do, but only with a chargeable premium card, which has other perks
<http://www.tescobank.com/credit-cards/premium>
56% APR - no thanks!
Surely you don't pay credit card interest? And if you don't, why worry
about the rate?
Because it puts their business model into a rather poor context.
I prefer to be objective in my decision-making, rather than emotional.
I know perfectly well that their business model is to make money, just
like every credit card. But I like ones that give freebies
(particularly money-back) at no cost to me. I don't care if the APR is
sky-high, so long they offer the option to collect the full amount
every month by direct debit. And I much prefer ones with no fees,
unless the freebies are of interest to me, and dwarf the fees. So, for
example, I'm not interested in a freebie that gets you into airline
lounges, given that I always fly on tickets that get me into them
anyway.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
What I wanted was a regular Credit Card without the extra perks,
combined with the clubcard.
Yes, that's a reasonable request, and it's slightly odd that none of their
several cards offers it. I suppose the bank is mainly interested in making
money from lending people money at high rates, while the store's Clubcard
people are happy to offer their card free in return for all the marketing
data you provide, plus the extra sales they make from coupons. They haven't
managed to combine both sets of completely different objectives in one
card.
Perhaps because there's a regulatory issue over "whose data" it is. If
you make one transaction with such a card, does the data about what you
bought belong to the bank or to the Clubcard people.
It's all Tesco plc, so why can't they use the data for both purposes?
Post by Roland Perry
And while the "Clubcard people" are still owned by Tesco, they did
recently toy with idea of selling it. See this article for potntial
<https://informationrightsandwrongs.com/2015/01/08/data-protection-implic
ations-of-sale-of-tesco-clubcard-company/>
Tesco also got severely spanked by the ICO for administrative glitches
in the early days of the Clubcard. I think it something to do with
having failed to get permission from the users to send 3rd-party
marketing mailshots. Yes, everyone usually asks that, but they
apparently forgot.
In those early days, the Clubcard system was operated by a third
party, Dunnhumby. Tesco only bought it some years later, in several
stages.
Roland Perry
2017-08-02 12:35:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
56% APR - no thanks!
Surely you don't pay credit card interest? And if you don't, why worry
about the rate?
Because it puts their business model into a rather poor context.
I prefer to be objective in my decision-making, rather than emotional.
And one of the data inputs to that kind of objectivity is the APR.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Perhaps because there's a regulatory issue over "whose data" it is. If
you make one transaction with such a card, does the data about what you
bought belong to the bank or to the Clubcard people.
It's all Tesco plc,
For now, but only because they did a u-turn as recently as 2 years ago.
Post by Recliner
so why can't they use the data for both purposes?
It all depends what they told the customers. In the mean time you
sliding quickly down a slippery slope of incomprehension between the
roles of data controller and data processor.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
And while the "Clubcard people" are still owned by Tesco, they did
recently toy with idea of selling it. See this article for potntial
<https://informationrightsandwrongs.com/2015/01/08/data-protection-implic
ations-of-sale-of-tesco-clubcard-company/>
Tesco also got severely spanked by the ICO for administrative glitches
in the early days of the Clubcard. I think it something to do with
having failed to get permission from the users to send 3rd-party
marketing mailshots. Yes, everyone usually asks that, but they
apparently forgot.
In those early days, the Clubcard system was operated by a third
party, Dunnhumby. Tesco only bought it some years later, in several
stages.
See slippery slope.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-08-02 13:26:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
56% APR - no thanks!
Surely you don't pay credit card interest? And if you don't, why worry
about the rate?
Because it puts their business model into a rather poor context.
I prefer to be objective in my decision-making, rather than emotional.
And one of the data inputs to that kind of objectivity is the APR.
How so? If you don't pay interest, why care about the rate? It's not
objective to have an emotional reaction to irrelevant variables.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Perhaps because there's a regulatory issue over "whose data" it is. If
you make one transaction with such a card, does the data about what you
bought belong to the bank or to the Clubcard people.
It's all Tesco plc,
For now, but only because they did a u-turn as recently as 2 years ago.
Post by Recliner
so why can't they use the data for both purposes?
It all depends what they told the customers. In the mean time you
sliding quickly down a slippery slope of incomprehension between the
roles of data controller and data processor.
Well, given that one of the credit cards they offer does provide full
Clubcard points, that's presumably not the problem. It also doesn't
stop Sainsbury's Bank from offering credit card with normal Nectar
rewards. And Nectar certainly isn't part of Sainsbury's; it isn't even
British-owned.

<https://www.sainsburysbank.co.uk/credit_cards/micro/cca_creditcards_zone_search#tab--purchase-credit-cards->

So you'll have to invent new arguments.
Roland Perry
2017-08-03 06:32:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
56% APR - no thanks!
Surely you don't pay credit card interest? And if you don't, why worry
about the rate?
Because it puts their business model into a rather poor context.
I prefer to be objective in my decision-making, rather than emotional.
And one of the data inputs to that kind of objectivity is the APR.
How so? If you don't pay interest, why care about the rate? It's not
objective to have an emotional reaction to irrelevant variables.
If you don't know, then I don't think I can succeed in explaining it to
you.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Perhaps because there's a regulatory issue over "whose data" it is. If
you make one transaction with such a card, does the data about what you
bought belong to the bank or to the Clubcard people.
It's all Tesco plc,
For now, but only because they did a u-turn as recently as 2 years ago.
Post by Recliner
so why can't they use the data for both purposes?
It all depends what they told the customers. In the mean time you
sliding quickly down a slippery slope of incomprehension between the
roles of data controller and data processor.
Well, given that one of the credit cards they offer does provide full
Clubcard points, that's presumably not the problem.
The fee charged for the card might be considered an insurance policy for
them to sort out any regulatory issues should they arise.
Post by Recliner
It also doesn't stop Sainsbury's Bank from offering credit card with
normal Nectar rewards.
Apparently not - only point per 5 pounds when used off-piste.
Post by Recliner
<https://www.sainsburysbank.co.uk/credit_cards/micro/cca_creditcards_zon
e_search#tab--purchase-credit-cards->
And Nectar certainly isn't part of Sainsbury's; it isn't even
British-owned.
Aimia Coalition Loyalty UK Ltd.

ps. You need to make your mind you whether co-ownership is a plus or a
minus. But once there *is* a split then the data controller/processor
issues will tend to become clearer.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-08-03 07:19:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
56% APR - no thanks!
Surely you don't pay credit card interest? And if you don't, why worry
about the rate?
Because it puts their business model into a rather poor context.
I prefer to be objective in my decision-making, rather than emotional.
And one of the data inputs to that kind of objectivity is the APR.
How so? If you don't pay interest, why care about the rate? It's not
objective to have an emotional reaction to irrelevant variables.
If you don't know, then I don't think I can succeed in explaining it to
you.
Indeed not. I'm delighted to use cards with a high APR, as that funds the
freebies (normally cash back) for me. I take it you pay interest on your
credit cards?
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Perhaps because there's a regulatory issue over "whose data" it is. If
you make one transaction with such a card, does the data about what you
bought belong to the bank or to the Clubcard people.
It's all Tesco plc,
For now, but only because they did a u-turn as recently as 2 years ago.
Post by Recliner
so why can't they use the data for both purposes?
It all depends what they told the customers. In the mean time you
sliding quickly down a slippery slope of incomprehension between the
roles of data controller and data processor.
Well, given that one of the credit cards they offer does provide full
Clubcard points, that's presumably not the problem.
The fee charged for the card might be considered an insurance policy for
them to sort out any regulatory issues should they arise.
Post by Recliner
It also doesn't stop Sainsbury's Bank from offering credit card with
normal Nectar rewards.
Apparently not - only point per 5 pounds when used off-piste.
Post by Recliner
<https://www.sainsburysbank.co.uk/credit_cards/micro/cca_creditcards_zon
e_search#tab--purchase-credit-cards->
And Nectar certainly isn't part of Sainsbury's; it isn't even
British-owned.
Aimia Coalition Loyalty UK Ltd.
As I said, it's not British owned. It's Canadian, based in Montreal. It
started as Aeroplan, Air Canada's frequent fliers' loyalty programme.
Post by Roland Perry
ps. You need to make your mind you whether co-ownership is a plus or a
minus. But once there *is* a split then the data controller/processor
issues will tend to become clearer.
There clearly is a split between Sainsbury's Bank and Nectar.
Roland Perry
2017-08-03 14:32:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
In message
<2041856985.523437280.402810.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-sept
ember.org>, at 07:19:00 on Thu, 3 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
If you don't pay interest, why care about the rate? It's not
objective to have an emotional reaction to irrelevant variables.
If you don't know, then I don't think I can succeed in explaining it to
you.
Indeed not.
I agree.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
ps. You need to make your mind you whether co-ownership is a plus or a
minus. But once there *is* a split then the data controller/processor
issues will tend to become clearer.
There clearly is a split between Sainsbury's Bank and Nectar.
Which of Sainsbury's, Sainsbury's Bank, and Nectar are the data
controller and processor; and does that hold for off-piste Nectar
transactions too?
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2017-08-01 16:06:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Richard J.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
The "inside" isn't manned 24x7. And thanks for confirming my impression
that there's a breed of tech geek who thinks one minor improvement is
justifiable, how ever many negative consequences it has. (And no,
talking to humans isn't one of those - the human's barcode reader
struggled to read the new fob too, increasing the length of the queue).
So pay by card or cash, whats the problem?
Do keep up; it's their *loyalty* card, not a payment card.
Fair enough.
Tesco have their own bank
The shop people claim the ATMs are "nothing to do with us", so it could
be a branding thing like Virgin Trains being nothing to do with Virgin
Bank.
Post by s***@potato.field
however so it wouldn't be beyond the realms of
possibilty for them to have to release a smart card/fob for payment.
I have always thought they should have a combined Credit/Loyalty card.
Maybe there's some regulatory issue with it.
John Lewis manage to have a credit card with a reward scheme that favours
purchases in John Lewis and Waitrose, so there's evidently no regulatory
issue with that. However they also have a separate loyalty card for John
Lewis, and yet another one for Waitrose ("My Waitrose"). So full loyalty
to the John Lewis group implies three cards in your wallet. :-(
and an emptier wallet than other people

tim
Recliner
2017-08-01 14:36:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
The "inside" isn't manned 24x7. And thanks for confirming my impression
that there's a breed of tech geek who thinks one minor improvement is
justifiable, how ever many negative consequences it has. (And no,
talking to humans isn't one of those - the human's barcode reader
struggled to read the new fob too, increasing the length of the queue).
So pay by card or cash, whats the problem?
Do keep up; it's their *loyalty* card, not a payment card.
Fair enough.
Tesco have their own bank
The shop people claim the ATMs are "nothing to do with us", so it could
be a branding thing like Virgin Trains being nothing to do with Virgin
Bank.
Not so: both the stores and bank are wholly owned by Tesco plc, but are run
separately. Probably for security reasons, the store staff won't have
anything to do with operating the ATMs.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
however so it wouldn't be beyond the realms of
possibilty for them to have to release a smart card/fob for payment.
I have always thought they should have a combined Credit/Loyalty card.
Maybe there's some regulatory issue with it.
Tesco had the same idea a long time ago, and Tesco Bank has been issuing
combined credit and loyalty cards for a couple of decades; they seem to be
advertised at every checkout. I'm amazed you've missed them!

https://www.uswitch.com/credit-cards/companies/tesco-bank/

http://uk.creditcards.com/tesco.php

http://www.moneysupermarket.com/credit-cards/tesco/

http://www.tescobank.com/credit-cards/
Roland Perry
2017-08-01 17:43:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
In message
<425508317.523290420.361067.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 14:36:44 on Tue, 1 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The shop people claim the ATMs are "nothing to do with us", so it could
be a branding thing like Virgin Trains being nothing to do with Virgin
Bank.
Not so: both the stores and bank are wholly owned by Tesco plc, but are run
separately. Probably for security reasons, the store staff won't have
anything to do with operating the ATMs.
The reason I was talking to them was precisely a "security reason"
because the external lighting to the area where the ATMs are located had
failed, causing people to have to operate the ATMs in the dark, while
all kinds of dodgy characters could be lurking in the shadows.

"Not our problem" the shop said.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-08-02 11:51:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
The "inside" isn't manned 24x7. And thanks for confirming my
impression that there's a breed of tech geek who thinks one minor
improvement is justifiable, how ever many negative consequences it
has. (And no, talking to humans isn't one of those - the human's
barcode reader struggled to read the new fob too, increasing the
length of the queue).
So pay by card or cash, whats the problem?
Do keep up; it's their *loyalty* card, not a payment card.
Fair enough.
Tesco have their own bank
The shop people claim the ATMs are "nothing to do with us", so it could
be a branding thing like Virgin Trains being nothing to do with Virgin
Bank.
Post by s***@potato.field
however so it wouldn't be beyond the realms of
possibilty for them to have to release a smart card/fob for payment.
I have always thought they should have a combined Credit/Loyalty
card. Maybe there's some regulatory issue with it.
Apart from Tesco in fact doing it as mentioned below, Sainsbury have a
combined credit and Nectar card too.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2017-08-02 12:36:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
I have always thought they should have a combined Credit/Loyalty
card. Maybe there's some regulatory issue with it.
Apart from Tesco in fact doing it as mentioned below, Sainsbury have a
combined credit and Nectar card too.
Such issues are not black and white, but shades of grey.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-08-02 13:27:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
I have always thought they should have a combined Credit/Loyalty
card. Maybe there's some regulatory issue with it.
Apart from Tesco in fact doing it as mentioned below, Sainsbury have a
combined credit and Nectar card too.
Such issues are not black and white, but shades of grey.
50?
Clank
2017-08-15 19:31:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Roland Perry
The "inside" isn't manned 24x7. And thanks for confirming my impression
that there's a breed of tech geek who thinks one minor improvement is
justifiable, how ever many negative consequences it has. (And no,
talking to humans isn't one of those - the human's barcode reader
struggled to read the new fob too, increasing the length of the queue).
So pay by card or cash, whats the problem?
Do keep up; it's their *loyalty* card, not a payment card.
Fair enough.
Tesco have their own bank
The shop people claim the ATMs are "nothing to do with us", so it could
be a branding thing like Virgin Trains being nothing to do with Virgin
Bank.
Post by s***@potato.field
however so it wouldn't be beyond the realms of
possibilty for them to have to release a smart card/fob for payment.
I have always thought they should have a combined Credit/Loyalty card.
Maybe there's some regulatory issue with it.
Some time ago, I was involved in aquiring a company that managed a
combined-loyalty-and-credit-card scheme; the credit card was issued by one
of the US banks that heavily got involved in the UK market through its own
brand but mainly through co-branding. Let's say "Mainly Branded but Not
Always."

It was one of those "the assets are worth more than the business"
acquisitions, so the main job was to wind up the operations in the most
orderly fashion possible. Which delighted me, when I discovered that the
"IT integration" consisted of said US bank *emailing* the complete account
information (card numbers, addresses, card activity etc.) once a week, as
an Excel spreadsheet.

Without so much as a password on the Excel to provide a figleaf of
security...
s***@potato.field
2017-08-16 08:45:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 19:31:25 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Clank
It was one of those "the assets are worth more than the business"
acquisitions, so the main job was to wind up the operations in the most
orderly fashion possible. Which delighted me, when I discovered that the
"IT integration" consisted of said US bank *emailing* the complete account
information (card numbers, addresses, card activity etc.) once a week, as
an Excel spreadsheet.
Without so much as a password on the Excel to provide a figleaf of
security...
That sort of thing is completely unacceptable and something the FCA (or
whichever body is now responsible for policing this sort of thing after that
idiot Osborne dismantled the FSA) should look in to and possibly bring
criminal charges.
--
Spud
David Cantrell
2017-08-08 15:29:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
The "inside" isn't manned 24x7.
I was under the impression that petrol stations *had* to be manned when
they were open. That was certainly the case when I was a spotty yoof and
worked in one. If I needed to take a slash during my shift I had to turn
everything off first.
--
David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

Support terrierism! Adopt a dog today!
Roland Perry
2017-08-08 17:47:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Cantrell
Post by Roland Perry
The "inside" isn't manned 24x7.
I was under the impression that petrol stations *had* to be manned when
they were open. That was certainly the case when I was a spotty yoof and
worked in one. If I needed to take a slash during my shift I had to turn
everything off first.
It's changed. I filled up at a Sainsburys *completely* unattended petrol
station today. Card-only, but that's a different thread.
--
Roland Perry
Michael R N Dolbear
2017-08-08 18:57:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
"Roland Perry" wrote in message news:***@perry.co.uk...

In message <***@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>, at 16:29:39
on Tue, 8 Aug 2017, David Cantrell
Post by Roland Perry
Post by David Cantrell
I was under the impression that petrol stations *had* to be manned when
they were open. That was certainly the case when I was a spotty yoof and
worked in one. If I needed to take a slash during my shift I had to turn
everything off first.
It's changed. I filled up at a Sainsburys *completely* unattended petrol
station today. Card-only, but that's a different thread.
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Petrol_station

Fully automatic self service petrol stations appeared in earnest in the
2000s, driven by supermarkets keen to cut costs to provide automatic
unattended fuelling at night and reduce staff needed to run the filling
station kiosk during the day. 'Pay at Pump' is now a common feature at
Tesco, Morrisons and Asda stores, with the latter having a number of
completely unattended filling stations, with just a phone to contact the
main store if assistance is required.

At some sites, especially in very remote, rural areas filling stations are
unattended at all times, requiring the user to pay by cash or card in
advance of fuelling. Examples include Durness and Applecross in the Scottish
Highlands.

Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations 2002
--
Mike D
s***@potato.field
2017-08-09 08:51:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 19:57:36 +0100
Post by Michael R N Dolbear
Fully automatic self service petrol stations appeared in earnest in the
2000s, driven by supermarkets keen to cut costs to provide automatic
unattended fuelling at night and reduce staff needed to run the filling
station kiosk during the day. 'Pay at Pump' is now a common feature at
Tesco, Morrisons and Asda stores, with the latter having a number of
completely unattended filling stations, with just a phone to contact the
main store if assistance is required.
Its been a common feature in France for a long time plus even the manned
stations usually have a pump that takes cards so you don't have to go and
endure the regulation scowl from Jean-Claude when you try to pay.
--
Spud
tim...
2017-08-28 12:12:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 19:57:36 +0100
Post by Michael R N Dolbear
Fully automatic self service petrol stations appeared in earnest in the
2000s, driven by supermarkets keen to cut costs to provide automatic
unattended fuelling at night and reduce staff needed to run the filling
station kiosk during the day. 'Pay at Pump' is now a common feature at
Tesco, Morrisons and Asda stores, with the latter having a number of
completely unattended filling stations, with just a phone to contact the
main store if assistance is required.
Its been a common feature in France for a long time plus even the manned
stations usually have a pump that takes cards so you don't have to go and
endure the regulation scowl from Jean-Claude when you try to pay.
Just come back from 2 weeks in France

and pay at kiosk is definitely a minority sport there now. And evenings and
Sundays, often an impossibility

(fortunately, the machines offer instructions in 4 languages -though you can
just about bluff your way through without translation - unlike the bloody
Scandinavian offerings)

tim
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-08-28 15:07:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 19:57:36 +0100
Post by Michael R N Dolbear
Fully automatic self service petrol stations appeared in earnest in the
2000s, driven by supermarkets keen to cut costs to provide automatic
unattended fuelling at night and reduce staff needed to run the filling
station kiosk during the day. 'Pay at Pump' is now a common feature at
Tesco, Morrisons and Asda stores, with the latter having a number of
completely unattended filling stations, with just a phone to contact the
main store if assistance is required.
Its been a common feature in France for a long time plus even the manned
stations usually have a pump that takes cards so you don't have to go
and endure the regulation scowl from Jean-Claude when you try to pay.
Just come back from 2 weeks in France
and pay at kiosk is definitely a minority sport there now. And
evenings and Sundays, often an impossibility
(fortunately, the machines offer instructions in 4 languages -though
you can just about bluff your way through without translation -
unlike the bloody Scandinavian offerings)
I'm very disappointed that you can't understand enough French to deal with
such everyday things. Another shameful British habit.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
tim...
2017-08-28 15:19:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by tim...
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 19:57:36 +0100
Post by Michael R N Dolbear
Fully automatic self service petrol stations appeared in earnest in the
2000s, driven by supermarkets keen to cut costs to provide automatic
unattended fuelling at night and reduce staff needed to run the filling
station kiosk during the day. 'Pay at Pump' is now a common feature at
Tesco, Morrisons and Asda stores, with the latter having a number of
completely unattended filling stations, with just a phone to contact the
main store if assistance is required.
Its been a common feature in France for a long time plus even the manned
stations usually have a pump that takes cards so you don't have to go
and endure the regulation scowl from Jean-Claude when you try to pay.
Just come back from 2 weeks in France
and pay at kiosk is definitely a minority sport there now. And
evenings and Sundays, often an impossibility
(fortunately, the machines offer instructions in 4 languages -though
you can just about bluff your way through without translation -
unlike the bloody Scandinavian offerings)
I'm very disappointed that you can't understand enough French to deal with
such everyday things. Another shameful British habit.
I seem to have an inherent inability to remember more than 1 foreign
language

having (in chronological order) spent 2 years learning Italian, 6 years
learning German and 1 year in Sweden since I left school, 40 years ago

I have lost all ability that I had to communicate in French

tim
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-08-28 16:36:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by tim...
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 19:57:36 +0100
Post by Michael R N Dolbear
Fully automatic self service petrol stations appeared in earnest in
the 2000s, driven by supermarkets keen to cut costs to provide
automatic unattended fuelling at night and reduce staff needed to run
the filling station kiosk during the day. 'Pay at Pump' is now a
common feature at Tesco, Morrisons and Asda stores, with the latter
having a number of completely unattended filling stations, with just
a phone to contact the main store if assistance is required.
Its been a common feature in France for a long time plus even the
manned stations usually have a pump that takes cards so you don't
have to go and endure the regulation scowl from Jean-Claude when you
try to pay.
Just come back from 2 weeks in France
and pay at kiosk is definitely a minority sport there now. And
evenings and Sundays, often an impossibility
(fortunately, the machines offer instructions in 4 languages -though
you can just about bluff your way through without translation -
unlike the bloody Scandinavian offerings)
I'm very disappointed that you can't understand enough French to deal
with such everyday things. Another shameful British habit.
I seem to have an inherent inability to remember more than 1 foreign
language
having (in chronological order) spent 2 years learning Italian, 6
years learning German and 1 year in Sweden since I left school, 40
years ago
I have lost all ability that I had to communicate in French
French, Portuguese and German in my case. My problem is recalling the
vocabulary. Any overseas trip includes a crash course to catch up - French
and German most recently. A cousin of my wife's got married. He's British
and lives with his now wife and mother of their children, who is German, in
Zurich, Switzerland. So naturally they celebrated their wedding in France!
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Richard
2017-08-28 21:54:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by tim...
(fortunately, the machines offer instructions in 4 languages -though
you can just about bluff your way through without translation -
unlike the bloody Scandinavian offerings)
I'm very disappointed that you can't understand enough French to deal with
such everyday things. Another shameful British habit.
That's a bit harsh - unless you're suggesting that French has a
special status, which I think it has, but you can't know the language
everywhere you go. The other option is not going anywhere not on your
language list, far too limiting (even if I'm guilty of it sometimes).

Richard.
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-08-28 23:50:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Richard
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by tim...
(fortunately, the machines offer instructions in 4 languages -though
you can just about bluff your way through without translation -
unlike the bloody Scandinavian offerings)
I'm very disappointed that you can't understand enough French to deal
with such everyday things. Another shameful British habit.
That's a bit harsh - unless you're suggesting that French has a
special status, which I think it has, but you can't know the language
everywhere you go. The other option is not going anywhere not on your
language list, far too limiting (even if I'm guilty of it sometimes).
I take French as a bit exceptional because at least in theory almost all of
us are supposed to have learnt it at school.

I must say I do feel uncomfortable going to countries where I know nothing
of the language to the point of not knowing which are the words for Ladies &
Gents' loos and have only done it once, to Poland in 2002. I got away with
English entirely except on one occasion, buying single train tickets from
Krakow to Warsaw. I thought of trying German but decided it would be
undiplomatic at least. Luckily the next person in the queue behind us was a
student who did the necessary interpretation.

The other exceptions are the Netherlands and Belgium. I've found that my
German helps me pass the loo test (and which poster in a railway station
lists Departures and which lists Arrivals) but having found how good Dutch
and Flemish-speaking people are at English I was surprised in Gent a few
years back how few prisoners they took linguistically.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Clank
2017-08-29 05:00:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Richard
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by tim...
(fortunately, the machines offer instructions in 4 languages -though
you can just about bluff your way through without translation -
unlike the bloody Scandinavian offerings)
I'm very disappointed that you can't understand enough French to deal
with such everyday things. Another shameful British habit.
That's a bit harsh - unless you're suggesting that French has a
special status, which I think it has, but you can't know the language
everywhere you go. The other option is not going anywhere not on your
language list, far too limiting (even if I'm guilty of it sometimes).
I take French as a bit exceptional because at least in theory almost all of
us are supposed to have learnt it at school.
It's a bit of a mystery why it's taught in school, given it's about the
least useful language to learn. Not so much because of the level of use,
but rather because the native speakers would rather sniff haughtily than
descend to the level of communicating with anyone less than perfectly
fluent in it...

I haven't quite forgotten all my French, but I don't recall a time I needed
to use it in anger since I worked there 20 odd years ago (I rarely visit
France, and while I do visit Brussels a fair bit English is a much safer
language to use - speaking French to the wrong person will cause more
offence than speaking English.)

Learning Romanian has pushed most of the French vocabulary out of my head
anyway...


French as the default language in UK schools really is daft - Spanish would
make more sense, or German.
Roland Perry
2017-08-29 07:52:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Clank
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
I take French as a bit exceptional because at least in theory almost
all of us are supposed to have learnt it at school.
It's a bit of a mystery why it's taught in school, given it's about the
least useful language to learn.
Probably because it's the language of the diplomatic community, and of
other educated professionals worldwide, and thus a throwback to when
most people staying on at school long enough to be studying any
languages at all, would have a plausible need for it.

Our physical proximity to France is a co-incidence.

I agree that today Spanish is likely to be more useful for a tourist.

But to make one's way in the world of business the language one really
does need to be proficient in, is English as a Foreign Language - being
able to speak with a simplified vocabulary that you adapt in real time
to your audience, and an ear for strong accents.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-08-29 13:14:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Clank
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
I take French as a bit exceptional because at least in theory almost all
of us are supposed to have learnt it at school.
It's a bit of a mystery why it's taught in school, given it's about the
least useful language to learn. Not so much because of the level of use,
but rather because the native speakers would rather sniff haughtily than
descend to the level of communicating with anyone less than perfectly
fluent in it...
It's taught in school because France is our largest near neighbour and the
single foreign country with which this country has interacted down the
centuries. Young people like you have been spoilt by the ease of travel in
recent times. Few people used to travel at all and many got no further than
France in the days before cheap air travel. It's only 50 years ago after
all. French was also the universally accepted international language and
language of diplomacy until the Internet enabled (American) English to sweep
all before it.

As for your ludicrous claim about the attitude of the French to others
speaking French, it is, in my experience, utter tosh. In any case it is
nonsense to make such a generalisation about any population of over 100
million people worldwide.
Post by Clank
I haven't quite forgotten all my French, but I don't recall a time I
needed to use it in anger since I worked there 20 odd years ago (I rarely
visit France, and while I do visit Brussels a fair bit English is a much
safer language to use - speaking French to the wrong person will cause
more offence than speaking English.)
That has got worse in Belgium in the last 30 years, I have to agree.
Post by Clank
Learning Romanian has pushed most of the French vocabulary out of my
head anyway...
I found that a bit with Portuguese but, apart from the general vocabulary
recall issue, I find that Latin languages complement each other. I got Latin
and Greek "O" Levels at school so I did learn proper grammar.
Post by Clank
French as the default language in UK schools really is daft - Spanish
would make more sense, or German.
A very holiday-oriented or American attitude if I may say so. I've never
actually spent a holiday in Spain though I have done so in Portugal more
than once. I find my mainly Brazilian Portuguese is more useful in handling
Latin American Spanish. Both are simpler and more similar to each other than
their European counterparts.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2017-08-29 07:33:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
I got away with English entirely except on one occasion, buying single
train tickets from Krakow to Warsaw. I thought of trying German but
decided it would be undiplomatic at least.
A German man walks up to an immigration desk in Warsaw.

Immigration officer: "Occupation?"

German man: "No, just holiday."
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2017-08-29 09:07:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Richard
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by tim...
(fortunately, the machines offer instructions in 4 languages -though
you can just about bluff your way through without translation -
unlike the bloody Scandinavian offerings)
I'm very disappointed that you can't understand enough French to deal
with such everyday things. Another shameful British habit.
That's a bit harsh - unless you're suggesting that French has a
special status, which I think it has, but you can't know the language
everywhere you go. The other option is not going anywhere not on your
language list, far too limiting (even if I'm guilty of it sometimes).
I take French as a bit exceptional because at least in theory almost all of
us are supposed to have learnt it at school.
I must say I do feel uncomfortable going to countries where I know nothing
of the language to the point of not knowing which are the words for Ladies &
Gents' loos and have only done it once, to Poland in 2002.
In Poland you don't need to know the words, you need to know if you are a
circle or a triangle.

My Polish colleagues where actually amazed to find that the rest of the
world did not subscribe to this system.

Fortunately most countries recognise the issue with toilets and revert to
pictograms rather than words to identify them
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
I got away with
English entirely except on one occasion, buying single train tickets from
Krakow to Warsaw.
I always write this sort of stuff down

"Krakow (big arrow) Warsaw, time and date of train"

Of course that still leaves you with the DDMMYY MMDDYY problem :-(
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
I thought of trying German but decided it would be
undiplomatic at least. Luckily the next person in the queue behind us was a
student who did the necessary interpretation.
The other exceptions are the Netherlands and Belgium. I've found that my
German helps me pass the loo test (and which poster in a railway station
lists Departures and which lists Arrivals)
This is a transport board so I expect people here would be able to work this
out without actually needing any translation abilities (hint, the times
shown at the "destination" on the departure board will be after the
departure time, on the arrivals board they are earlier)
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
but having found how good Dutch
and Flemish-speaking people are at English I was surprised in Gent a few
years back how few prisoners they took linguistically.
yes it's embarrassing, isn't it

tim
tim...
2017-08-08 19:56:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Cantrell
Post by Roland Perry
The "inside" isn't manned 24x7.
I was under the impression that petrol stations *had* to be manned when
they were open. That was certainly the case when I was a spotty yoof and
worked in one. If I needed to take a slash during my shift I had to turn
everything off first.
there's a new supermarket station by me that manned 0x7

tim
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-07-28 23:57:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
In other news, I've received a brand new set of Tesco Loyalty Card
keyfobs, which they claim are a vast improvement over the old ones.
Except the old ones were recognised by their self-service tills and -
CAN YOU EVEN START TO BELIEVE THIS - the new one's aren't.
It's way beyond "you couldn't make this up".
Thanks for the warning. I had that mailing today which I'll bear in mind on
the next rare occasion when I shop at Tesco.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
tim...
2017-07-26 19:25:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Recliner
I don't think contactless technology is the issue. It's just that TfL
hasn't got around to implementing railcard discounts in the back
office systems. It seems to have been concentrating first on providing
new features, rather than replicating existing ones.
They've obviously just stolen an engineering manger from Humax
David Cantrell
2017-07-26 16:33:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Indeed, but wait until you get a Senior Railcard. You only get railcard
discounts with real Oyster cards, despite the possibility of putting the
flag on at account level.
There's absolutely no reason for that apart from that's the way it was
implemented to start with. I'm absolutely certain that railcard
discounts will become available on contactless credit cards at some
point.
--
David Cantrell | Minister for Arbitrary Justice

Suffer the little children to come unto me, as
their buying habits are most easily influenced.
-- Marketroid Jesus
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-07-26 21:07:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 07:01:00AM -0500,
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Indeed, but wait until you get a Senior Railcard. You only get
railcard discounts with real Oyster cards, despite the possibility
of putting the flag on at account level.
There's absolutely no reason for that apart from that's the way it was
implemented to start with. I'm absolutely certain that railcard
discounts will become available on contactless credit cards at some
point.
I know they will have to be but TfL have dragged their feet at every turn
over railcard discounts which were a quid pro quo for implementing Oyster on
National Rail in London.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Loading...