Discussion:
Tube driver: The Job is going down the pan
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Jarle Hammen Knudsen
2017-04-07 13:36:30 UTC
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From Anne Maningas' blog:

http://www.version3point1.co.uk/blog/2017/2/24/tea-for-the-soul

" [...] the other day I went to speak to The Boss Man about the
possibility of handing in my notice, as I now have an Escape Plan.
Boss Man was understandably quite excited that I’d been offered a
better job elsewhere, but perhaps that may be something to do with the
fact that he is looking to retire – and because it’s quite clear to
everyone that The Job is going down the pan, and that people should
really have either a Backup Plan or an Escape Plan. In fact, it’s the
Boss Man that has been nagging me these last 3-4 years about making
sure I have an Escape Plan. "
--
jhk
r***@ntlworld.com
2017-04-07 13:44:22 UTC
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Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
http://www.version3point1.co.uk/blog/2017/2/24/tea-for-the-soul
" [...] the other day I went to speak to The Boss Man about the
possibility of handing in my notice, as I now have an Escape Plan.
Boss Man was understandably quite excited that I’d been offered a
better job elsewhere, but perhaps that may be something to do with the
fact that he is looking to retire – and because it’s quite clear to
everyone that The Job is going down the pan, and that people should
really have either a Backup Plan or an Escape Plan. In fact, it’s the
Boss Man that has been nagging me these last 3-4 years about making
sure I have an Escape Plan. "
--
jhk
Is there within all that verbiage an explanation of
how and why the job is going down the pan?
Jarle Hammen Knudsen
2017-04-07 15:42:44 UTC
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Post by r***@ntlworld.com
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
http://www.version3point1.co.uk/blog/2017/2/24/tea-for-the-soul
" [...] the other day I went to speak to The Boss Man about the
possibility of handing in my notice, as I now have an Escape Plan.
Boss Man was understandably quite excited that I’d been offered a
better job elsewhere, but perhaps that may be something to do with the
fact that he is looking to retire – and because it’s quite clear to
everyone that The Job is going down the pan, and that people should
really have either a Backup Plan or an Escape Plan. In fact, it’s the
Boss Man that has been nagging me these last 3-4 years about making
sure I have an Escape Plan. "
--
jhk
Is there within all that verbiage an explanation of
how and why the job is going down the pan?
I don't think she has written anything else about it. I have followed
her for a number of years since she's good at photography, and some
material is from the tube.
--
jhk
michael adams
2017-04-08 12:41:52 UTC
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Post by r***@ntlworld.com
Is there within all that verbiage an explanation of
how and why the job is going down the pan?
Take for example the recent train shortages and restricted
running on the Piccadilly Line.

My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway
this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually
by refacing the effected wheels on lathes.

Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach
to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO
this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the
first place.

The first the travelling public knew about any of this were stories of
drivers refusing to take out trains. Which immediately put the drivers
in a bad light - they were simply being difficult - as with all their
actions. If it's not about money then 'its all politically motivated
etc. etc.

Whereas in fact drivers should never find themselves in the position
where they're having to refuse take out trains as a direct result of slipshod
maintenance. As its their neck which will be on the line if anything goes
wrong.

Clearly they were correct in their refusal in this case, and for outsiders
there's no real way of knowing how many of their other concerns
are equally justified. As their public representatives, union officials
etc are either very poor communicators or are denied sufficient
opportunities to put over their case.

Basically in such a situation when its impossible to have any confidence
ether in the management of the organisation for whom you work or in the
ability your representatives to put over your case to the public
the job is indeed going down the pan.


michael adams
Basil Jet
2017-04-08 13:06:16 UTC
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Post by michael adams
Whereas in fact drivers should never find themselves in the position
where they're having to refuse take out trains as a direct result of slipshod
maintenance. As its their neck which will be on the line if anything goes
wrong.
That sounds like you're suggesting they'll be fired or disciplined if a
fault develops, when it's more that they will have a really horrific day
if a door opens unexpectedly and a few people fall off a moving tube
train. (Brake faults obviously do put the drivers neck on the line in a
literal sense.)
michael adams
2017-04-08 13:46:03 UTC
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Post by michael adams
Whereas in fact drivers should never find themselves in the position
where they're having to refuse take out trains as a direct result of slipshod
maintenance. As its their neck which will be on the line if anything goes
wrong.
That sounds like you're suggesting they'll be fired or disciplined if a fault develops,
The finger will point at them until such time as the evidence indicates
otherwise. Which might take days or weeks.

The general public without the requisite technical knowledge are probably
more likely as first at least to attribute any such occurance to operator
or driver error. As that's something everyone can understand,
Wereas the systems they're operating are supposedly designed
not to fail.

Same as with these wheel flats. As a member of the travelling public I've not a
got a clue whether there are any safety implications in driving with wheel flats.
Again I can't really believe that drivers weren't reporting this problem,
before all of a sudden it became necessary for drivers to actually refuse to
take out trains and for the decision to be made to take large numbers
of trains out of service .

There's plenty in the news about drivers being disciplined or dismissed
for various offences. I've yet to read anywhere of a single member
of the LT management or Board (if such still exists) being dismissed
as a result of their decision to cut back on wheel maintainence and
inspections on the Picaddilly Line.
when it's more that they will have a really horrific day
if a door opens unexpectedly and a few people fall off a moving tube train.
How many people other than his fellow drivers will accept that the
door opened "unexpectedly" for any other reason than that the
driver somehow opened it himself by accident ?


michael adams

..
Recliner
2017-04-08 13:53:35 UTC
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On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 14:46:03 +0100, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Post by michael adams
Whereas in fact drivers should never find themselves in the position
where they're having to refuse take out trains as a direct result of slipshod
maintenance. As its their neck which will be on the line if anything goes
wrong.
That sounds like you're suggesting they'll be fired or disciplined if a fault develops,
The finger will point at them until such time as the evidence indicates
otherwise. Which might take days or weeks.
The general public without the requisite technical knowledge are probably
more likely as first at least to attribute any such occurance to operator
or driver error. As that's something everyone can understand,
Wereas the systems they're operating are supposedly designed
not to fail.
Same as with these wheel flats. As a member of the travelling public I've not a
got a clue whether there are any safety implications in driving with wheel flats.
Again I can't really believe that drivers weren't reporting this problem,
before all of a sudden it became necessary for drivers to actually refuse to
take out trains and for the decision to be made to take large numbers
of trains out of service .
Drivers would certainly report wheel flats if they became aware of
them, but a flat somewhere in the middle of the train may not be
audible in the cab. So a member of station staff or even a passenger
may report a bad one. That's a fault that is easy to check, and it's
part of the driver's job if s/he becomes aware of one.

If it's a bad flat, the train will be withdrawn from service. The
problem arises with rare, intermittent faults that are hard to
reproduce (such as the doors that allegedly opened spontaneously
between stations).
Post by michael adams
There's plenty in the news about drivers being disciplined or dismissed
for various offences. I've yet to read anywhere of a single member
of the LT management or Board (if such still exists) being dismissed
as a result of their decision to cut back on wheel maintainence and
inspections on the Picaddilly Line.
That wasn't what caused the wheel flats. There hadn't been any
cutbacks on wheel maintenance or inspections.
Post by michael adams
when it's more that they will have a really horrific day
if a door opens unexpectedly and a few people fall off a moving tube train.
How many people other than his fellow drivers will accept that the
door opened "unexpectedly" for any other reason than that the
driver somehow opened it himself by accident ?
There's no way a driver could open a single passenger door while the
train was on the move, so no-one would blame him if it happened. The
question was whether the reports of such door openings were spurious.
michael adams
2017-04-08 14:49:01 UTC
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Post by Recliner
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 14:46:03 +0100, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Post by Basil Jet
when it's more that they will have a really horrific day
if a door opens unexpectedly and a few people fall off a moving tube train.
How many people other than his fellow drivers will accept that the
door opened "unexpectedly" for any other reason than that the
driver somehow opened it himself by accident ?
There's no way a driver could open a single passenger door while the
train was on the move, so no-one would blame him if it happened.
You may well know that, and his fellow drivers may well know that,
but do the general public ? If B J's example is allowed as a real
possibility, is it realistic to suppose that LU would immediately
own up to real possibility that their trains are at fault, without
first holding some sort of internal enquiry ?
Post by Recliner
The question was whether the reports of such door openings were
spurious.
Apparently there were five such reports, the latest Jan 16th one
at least involving a light in the cab indicating a door was open.
Quite where the spurious element comes in, drivers suffering from
hallucinations, deliberately lying, or faulty indicator lights
in the cabs I'm not sure. I rather wish B J hadn't raised this as
an example as now I'm rather intrigued to know how this issue
was resolved. If at all.


michael adams

...
Recliner
2017-04-08 15:21:54 UTC
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Post by michael adams
Post by Recliner
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 14:46:03 +0100, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Post by Basil Jet
when it's more that they will have a really horrific day
if a door opens unexpectedly and a few people fall off a moving tube train.
How many people other than his fellow drivers will accept that the
door opened "unexpectedly" for any other reason than that the
driver somehow opened it himself by accident ?
There's no way a driver could open a single passenger door while the
train was on the move, so no-one would blame him if it happened.
You may well know that, and his fellow drivers may well know that,
but do the general public ? If B J's example is allowed as a real
possibility, is it realistic to suppose that LU would immediately
own up to real possibility that their trains are at fault, without
first holding some sort of internal enquiry ?
Post by Recliner
The question was whether the reports of such door openings were
spurious.
Apparently there were five such reports, the latest Jan 16th one
at least involving a light in the cab indicating a door was open.
Quite where the spurious element comes in, drivers suffering from
hallucinations, deliberately lying, or faulty indicator lights
in the cabs I'm not sure. I rather wish B J hadn't raised this as
an example as now I'm rather intrigued to know how this issue
was resolved. If at all.
Have you actually looked at the video this one?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35337580

The door opens just as the train comes to a stop, which is perfectly normal
on that line -- the drivers normally do open the doors before the train
comes to a complete stop, which is fine. But the report says this happened
as the train approached Heathrow terminal 4, and that's certainly not where
that passenger video was shot (for one thing, the doors open on the right
at T4). So I'm guessing that the BBC just used a random clip showing
perfectly normal door operation and thought this was the fault that had
been reported.

The actual door problem appears to have been acknowledged, investigated and
fixed. It was apparently a fault in a single door engine, and no-one blamed
the driver. But the union still used it as an excuse for industrial
action.
michael adams
2017-04-10 09:01:37 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by michael adams
Apparently there were five such reports, the latest Jan 16th one
at least involving a light in the cab indicating a door was open.
Quite where the spurious element comes in, drivers suffering from
hallucinations, deliberately lying, or faulty indicator lights
in the cabs I'm not sure. I rather wish B J hadn't raised this as
an example as now I'm rather intrigued to know how this issue
was resolved. If at all.
Have you actually looked at the video this one?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35337580
What exactly would have been the point of my having watched a video
which you yourself along with others suspect is simply a random
clip used by the BBC showing normal door operation ?


michael adams

...
michael adams
2017-04-10 09:07:57 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by michael adams
You may well know that, and his fellow drivers may well know that,
but do the general public ? If B J's example is allowed as a real
possibility, is it realistic to suppose that LU would immediately
own up to real possibility that their trains are at fault, without
first holding some sort of internal enquiry ?
Post by Recliner
The question was whether the reports of such door openings were
spurious.
The actual door problem appears to have been acknowledged, investigated and
fixed. It was apparently a fault in a single door engine, and no-one blamed
the driver.
To repeat "The question was whether the reports of such door openings were
spurious".

In other words, when supposedly trusted employees of LT, trusted sufficiently
to be able to drive trains at least., report a problem with doors, "a question"
immediately arises as to whether they're simply telling lies or not.

And then it turns out that "apparently" the drivers weren't telling lies or making
things up after all.

That's what you're saying in effect, is it not ?
Post by Recliner
But the union still used it as an excuse for industrial
action.
The union didn't use it as an "excuse" for anything. Although possibly they were
justifiably disappointed that the first recourse of LT management
whenever drivers report a problem who's effects aren't manifestly
apparent, is to suggest that the drivers are lying or making things up.

Although as I've already said, and in answer to your diatribe in your other post
the problem is not that the drivers are always in the right and the management
always in the wrong, but even in those cases where they are in the right they're
inadequately represented such that their point is not put across. If they
employed PR smoothies to represent them in the media as do LU -
then possibly they'd come over better.

As to management and the board. My 3rd most frequently used line is the
Central Line. For the new stock some genius presumably persuaded numerous
committees and boards that it would be a nice idea to have wrap around
windows up to the ceiling to allow the punters to better view the Essex
countryside. Unfortunately it was only after the new stock came on stream
that it was realised that in the absence of air-conditioning the insides of the
car became unbearably hot in sunny weather. Like little greenhouses
in fact. Now who'd have thought ? So that as result all the windows ended up
tinted. Which while maybe looking stylish to types attracted to that sort of thing
had the unfortunate result that passengers standing outside on the platform are
unable to see inside and which carriages are full and which are empty.
One possible solution might be to blank out the additional window area with
opaque film do reducing it to what it was before. However that's unlikely to
happen as it would be a living testament to the monumental
cock-up that was seemingly perpetrated at all levels of LT management.
Instead Central Line passengers are going to have to suffer a situation
where they can't see inside a train before boarding for the next, what
40 years ?

Oh and having done a bit of reading up. Apparently owing to the
brake thing plus the leaves on the Uxbridge line trains on the Piccadilly Line
are the most susceptible to flats. Which is why it was such a great idea
to put the only truing lathe in the maintenance pit at Northfelds depot
where its use would preclude other maintenance functions.

Although of course unlike the stroppy drivers who are all to real to some people
this stuff is only "rumours" appearing on blogs etc rather than LU hand-outs


michael adams

..
s***@potato.field
2017-04-10 09:26:12 UTC
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On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:07:57 +0100
Post by michael adams
Post by Recliner
But the union still used it as an excuse for industrial
action.
The union didn't use it as an "excuse" for anything. Although possibly they were
justifiably disappointed that the first recourse of LT management
whenever drivers report a problem who's effects aren't manifestly
apparent, is to suggest that the drivers are lying or making things up.
Perhaps if the drivers didn't cry wolf so often people might actually believe
them occasionally. Sadly those bridges burned and collapsed long ago. They only
have themselves to blame for the publics complete cynicism with anything they
have to say which of course emboldens management. It would seem the unions
and their members are too dim to see the long term consequences of calling
strikes for fatuous reasons. But then I suppose if you're fairly smart you
don't drive a train for a living.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-04-10 13:02:21 UTC
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On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:07:57 +0100, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Post by Recliner
Post by michael adams
You may well know that, and his fellow drivers may well know that,
but do the general public ? If B J's example is allowed as a real
possibility, is it realistic to suppose that LU would immediately
own up to real possibility that their trains are at fault, without
first holding some sort of internal enquiry ?
Post by Recliner
The question was whether the reports of such door openings were
spurious.
The actual door problem appears to have been acknowledged, investigated and
fixed. It was apparently a fault in a single door engine, and no-one blamed
the driver.
To repeat "The question was whether the reports of such door openings were
spurious".
In other words, when supposedly trusted employees of LT, trusted sufficiently
to be able to drive trains at least., report a problem with doors, "a question"
immediately arises as to whether they're simply telling lies or not.
And then it turns out that "apparently" the drivers weren't telling lies or making
things up after all.
That's what you're saying in effect, is it not ?
Post by Recliner
But the union still used it as an excuse for industrial
action.
The union didn't use it as an "excuse" for anything. Although possibly they were
justifiably disappointed that the first recourse of LT management
whenever drivers report a problem who's effects aren't manifestly
apparent, is to suggest that the drivers are lying or making things up.
Although as I've already said, and in answer to your diatribe in your other post
the problem is not that the drivers are always in the right and the management
always in the wrong, but even in those cases where they are in the right they're
inadequately represented such that their point is not put across. If they
employed PR smoothies to represent them in the media as do LU -
then possibly they'd come over better.
As to management and the board. My 3rd most frequently used line is the
Central Line. For the new stock some genius presumably persuaded numerous
committees and boards that it would be a nice idea to have wrap around
windows up to the ceiling to allow the punters to better view the Essex
countryside.
I assume you're new to London? Otherwise, you might remember the
extensive public testing of three different prototype trains before
the current Central Line trains were ordered. The trains that were
ordered were based on the most popular of the new designs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_1986_Stock

As for them being "new", I'm sure the LU management will be pleased
that one of its most severe, if uninformed, critics regards 25
year-old trains as "new". Perhaps you've also not noticed that the
three subsequent deep tube stock designs haven't had the wrap-over
windows you so hate.
Post by michael adams
Unfortunately it was only after the new stock came on stream
that it was realised that in the absence of air-conditioning the insides of the
car became unbearably hot in sunny weather. Like little greenhouses
in fact. Now who'd have thought ? So that as result all the windows ended up
tinted. Which while maybe looking stylish to types attracted to that sort of thing
had the unfortunate result that passengers standing outside on the platform are
unable to see inside and which carriages are full and which are empty.
One possible solution might be to blank out the additional window area with
opaque film do reducing it to what it was before. However that's unlikely to
happen as it would be a living testament to the monumental
cock-up that was seemingly perpetrated at all levels of LT management.
Instead Central Line passengers are going to have to suffer a situation
where they can't see inside a train before boarding for the next, what
40 years ?
You may hate LU management, but even they don't try and keep trains in
service for 65 years. Perhaps you'd like to comment on the likely
designs for the replacement stock?
Post by michael adams
Oh and having done a bit of reading up. Apparently owing to the
brake thing plus the leaves on the Uxbridge line trains on the Piccadilly Line
are the most susceptible to flats.
Yes, I'm glad you've read the document I linked to.
Post by michael adams
Which is why it was such a great idea
to put the only truing lathe in the maintenance pit at Northfelds depot
where its use would preclude other maintenance functions.
As you're such an expert, where would you have placed the wheel lathe?
Post by michael adams
Although of course unlike the stroppy drivers who are all to real to some people
this stuff is only "rumours" appearing on blogs etc rather than LU hand-outs
Unfortunately, the rail unions have acquired a bad reputation for
lying, so the default assumption now is that anything they say is
unlikely to be true.
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-04-10 14:00:44 UTC
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Post by michael adams
As to management and the board. My 3rd most frequently used line is the
Central Line. For the new stock some genius presumably persuaded numerous
committees and boards that it would be a nice idea to have wrap around
windows up to the ceiling to allow the punters to better view the Essex
countryside. Unfortunately it was only after the new stock came on stream
that it was realised that in the absence of air-conditioning the insides
of the car became unbearably hot in sunny weather. Like little greenhouses
in fact. Now who'd have thought ? So that as result all the windows ended
up tinted. Which while maybe looking stylish to types attracted to that
sort of thing had the unfortunate result that passengers standing outside
on the platform are unable to see inside and which carriages are full and
which are empty. One possible solution might be to blank out the
additional window area with opaque film do reducing it to what it was
before. However that's unlikely to happen as it would be a living
testament to the monumental cock-up that was seemingly perpetrated at all
levels of LT management. Instead Central Line passengers are going to have
to suffer a situation where they can't see inside a train before boarding
for the next, what 40 years ?
Hey! Less of the bollocks, please! An advantage of windows going up into the
roof space is that passengers can see out at stations more easily and see
which station they are at. The original Victoria Line 1967 stock introduced
the idea after trials on a 1938 stock car after the War. I can see this is
less of an issue with modern passenger information systems which announce
each station but does the 1992 stock have such systems?
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Recliner
2017-04-10 14:49:58 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by michael adams
As to management and the board. My 3rd most frequently used line is the
Central Line. For the new stock some genius presumably persuaded numerous
committees and boards that it would be a nice idea to have wrap around
windows up to the ceiling to allow the punters to better view the Essex
countryside. Unfortunately it was only after the new stock came on stream
that it was realised that in the absence of air-conditioning the insides
of the car became unbearably hot in sunny weather. Like little greenhouses
in fact. Now who'd have thought ? So that as result all the windows ended
up tinted. Which while maybe looking stylish to types attracted to that
sort of thing had the unfortunate result that passengers standing outside
on the platform are unable to see inside and which carriages are full and
which are empty. One possible solution might be to blank out the
additional window area with opaque film do reducing it to what it was
before. However that's unlikely to happen as it would be a living
testament to the monumental cock-up that was seemingly perpetrated at all
levels of LT management. Instead Central Line passengers are going to have
to suffer a situation where they can't see inside a train before boarding
for the next, what 40 years ?
Hey! Less of the bollocks, please! An advantage of windows going up into the
roof space is that passengers can see out at stations more easily and see
which station they are at. The original Victoria Line 1967 stock introduced
the idea after trials on a 1938 stock car after the War. I can see this is
less of an issue with modern passenger information systems which announce
each station but does the 1992 stock have such systems?
The current system is audio-only, but digital information displays are
apparently on the way.

http://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:62719-2016:TEXT:EN:HTML

I suppose they're needed for compliance with the new 2020 PRM TSI
rules, though it seems like an unnecessary enhancement so late in the
life of the trains.
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-04-10 23:56:19 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by michael adams
As to management and the board. My 3rd most frequently used line is the
Central Line. For the new stock some genius presumably persuaded
numerous committees and boards that it would be a nice idea to have
wrap around windows up to the ceiling to allow the punters to better
view the Essex countryside. Unfortunately it was only after the new
stock came on stream that it was realised that in the absence of
air-conditioning the insides of the car became unbearably hot in sunny
weather. Like little greenhouses in fact. Now who'd have thought ? So
that as result all the windows ended up tinted. Which while maybe
looking stylish to types attracted to that sort of thing had the
unfortunate result that passengers standing outside on the platform
are unable to see inside and which carriages are full and which are
empty. One possible solution might be to blank out the additional
window area with opaque film do reducing it to what it was before.
However that's unlikely to happen as it would be a living testament to
the monumental cock-up that was seemingly perpetrated at all levels of
LT management. Instead Central Line passengers are going to have to
suffer a situation where they can't see inside a train before boarding
for the next, what 40 years ?
Hey! Less of the bollocks, please! An advantage of windows going up into
the roof space is that passengers can see out at stations more easily and
see which station they are at. The original Victoria Line 1967 stock
introduced the idea after trials on a 1938 stock car after the War. I can
see this is less of an issue with modern passenger information systems
which announce each station but does the 1992 stock have such systems?
The current system is audio-only, but digital information displays are
apparently on the way.
http://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:62719-2016:TEXT:EN:HTML
I suppose they're needed for compliance with the new 2020 PRM TSI
rules, though it seems like an unnecessary enhancement so late in the
life of the trains.
Not that late surely? If memory serves they're due for retractioning too.
When are they due for replacement?
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Recliner
2017-04-11 00:14:33 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by michael adams
As to management and the board. My 3rd most frequently used line is the
Central Line. For the new stock some genius presumably persuaded
numerous committees and boards that it would be a nice idea to have
wrap around windows up to the ceiling to allow the punters to better
view the Essex countryside. Unfortunately it was only after the new
stock came on stream that it was realised that in the absence of
air-conditioning the insides of the car became unbearably hot in sunny
weather. Like little greenhouses in fact. Now who'd have thought ? So
that as result all the windows ended up tinted. Which while maybe
looking stylish to types attracted to that sort of thing had the
unfortunate result that passengers standing outside on the platform
are unable to see inside and which carriages are full and which are
empty. One possible solution might be to blank out the additional
window area with opaque film do reducing it to what it was before.
However that's unlikely to happen as it would be a living testament to
the monumental cock-up that was seemingly perpetrated at all levels of
LT management. Instead Central Line passengers are going to have to
suffer a situation where they can't see inside a train before boarding
for the next, what 40 years ?
Hey! Less of the bollocks, please! An advantage of windows going up into
the roof space is that passengers can see out at stations more easily and
see which station they are at. The original Victoria Line 1967 stock
introduced the idea after trials on a 1938 stock car after the War. I can
see this is less of an issue with modern passenger information systems
which announce each station but does the 1992 stock have such systems?
The current system is audio-only, but digital information displays are
apparently on the way.
http://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:62719-2016:TEXT:EN:HTML
I suppose they're needed for compliance with the new 2020 PRM TSI
rules, though it seems like an unnecessary enhancement so late in the
life of the trains.
Not that late surely? If memory serves they're due for retractioning too.
When are they due for replacement?
They're not 'due' for replacement for another 20+ years, but probably
*will* be replaced within 15 years. LU would like to be shot of them, and
they'll go as part of the NTfL programme. So they'll probably do just under
40 years, compared to about 50 for the 1973 and A stock. The 72TS may
manage an amazing 60 years!
s***@potato.field
2017-04-11 08:21:42 UTC
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On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 00:14:33 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
They're not 'due' for replacement for another 20+ years, but probably
*will* be replaced within 15 years. LU would like to be shot of them, and
they'll go as part of the NTfL programme. So they'll probably do just under
40 years, compared to about 50 for the 1973 and A stock. The 72TS may
manage an amazing 60 years!
I actually rather like them. Good acceleration and good use of interior
space especially with the middle seats pulled back right to the window. Its
something the designers of the 2009 stock should have looked at before they
wasted god knows how many square feet with unnecessary wall cladding behind
the seats which could be moved a good 3-4 inches back each side with a
resulting increase in standing room.
--
Spud
Recliner
2017-04-08 13:34:20 UTC
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On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 13:41:52 +0100, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Post by r***@ntlworld.com
Is there within all that verbiage an explanation of
how and why the job is going down the pan?
Take for example the recent train shortages and restricted
running on the Piccadilly Line.
My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway
this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually
by refacing the effected wheels on lathes.
Not eventually, but as soon as possible. But the capacity of the wheel
lathe is limited, and it can't deal with a huge number of flat spots
overnight.
Post by michael adams
Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach
to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO
this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the
first place.
The first the travelling public knew about any of this were stories of
drivers refusing to take out trains.
No, the trains were taken out of service because of severe wheels
flats. Nobody disputes that they needed to be taken out of service.
Post by michael adams
Which immediately put the drivers
in a bad light - they were simply being difficult - as with all their
actions. If it's not about money then 'its all politically motivated
etc. etc.
No, the wheel flats didn't put the drivers in a bad light.
Post by michael adams
Whereas in fact drivers should never find themselves in the position
where they're having to refuse take out trains as a direct result of slipshod
maintenance. As its their neck which will be on the line if anything goes
wrong.
Clearly they were correct in their refusal in this case, and for outsiders
there's no real way of knowing how many of their other concerns
are equally justified. As their public representatives, union officials
etc are either very poor communicators or are denied sufficient
opportunities to put over their case.
Basically in such a situation when its impossible to have any confidence
ether in the management of the organisation for whom you work or in the
ability your representatives to put over your case to the public
the job is indeed going down the pan.
I don't think the drivers were refusing to drive trains with wheel
flats. That was a different issue. They have variously complained of
door and brake problems, and you've confused two completely different
episodes.

The wheel flats were not caused by lack of maintenance. They were
caused by drivers locking the brakes on slippery track, causing the
wheels to slide along the track, which creates a flat spot. That's a
combination of a possible lack of drivers' skills and LU's failure to
use the RAT frequently enough after Storm Angus brought down a lot of
leaves in a short period.

If the trains had been newer, they'd have had WSP (Wheel Slide
Protection), which would have reduced the incidence of flats. They
would also have had wheels that were easier to swap in the depot. And
if they were older, they'd have had tread brakes. So the 1973 stock
trains are particularly vulnerable to wheel flats, and they happen to
run on a fairly leafy line.

See:
<http://www.londonreconnections.com/2016/wear-and-lathing-problem-with-the-piccadilly-lines-trains/>
michael adams
2017-04-08 14:17:50 UTC
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Post by Recliner
The wheel flats were not caused by lack of maintenance. They were
caused by drivers locking the brakes on slippery track, causing the
wheels to slide along the track, which creates a flat spot. That's a
combination of a possible lack of drivers' skills and LU's failure to
use the RAT frequently enough after Storm Angus brought down a lot of
leaves in a short period.
How is LU's failure to use the RAT frequently enough to keep the
track clear of leaves, not evidence of a lack of maintenance ?

Given that this number of flats and trains being taken out of
service had not previously resulted from drivers locking their
brakes on slippery track, this can't be the result of a lack
of drivers skills as such.

It's surely more a case of the drivers not having been trained to
drive their trains in situations where the tracks are covered in
wet leaves. Possibly as a result of a decision not to run the RAT
often enough, or simply as the result of a breakdown of some kind.

So that's a clear failure of management on two counts.
First a failure to run the RAT often enough in this particular
instance. And second a failure to implement a training programme
allowing for the possibility that for some reason the line
might be covered in wet leaves or similar making it exceptionally
slippery.


michael adams

...
Recliner
2017-04-08 14:54:11 UTC
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Post by michael adams
Post by Recliner
The wheel flats were not caused by lack of maintenance. They were
caused by drivers locking the brakes on slippery track, causing the
wheels to slide along the track, which creates a flat spot. That's a
combination of a possible lack of drivers' skills and LU's failure to
use the RAT frequently enough after Storm Angus brought down a lot of
leaves in a short period.
How is LU's failure to use the RAT frequently enough to keep the
track clear of leaves, not evidence of a lack of maintenance ?
You were saying that the train maintenance was being skimped, which is not
the case. LU was at fault for not realising that a big storm when most of
the leaves were still on the trees would cause an unusually high incidence
of leaves on the line, requiring more frequent RAT runs for the next few
days. BTW, where do you think the extra RATs that are compatible with the
line would come from?
Post by michael adams
Given that this number of flats and trains being taken out of
service had not previously resulted from drivers locking their
brakes on slippery track, this can't be the result of a lack
of drivers skills as such.
There were more new drivers than usual, plus perhaps some of the existing
ones were out of practice at the beginning of autumn with driving on
slippery rails?
Post by michael adams
It's surely more a case of the drivers not having been trained to
drive their trains in situations where the tracks are covered in
wet leaves. Possibly as a result of a decision not to run the RAT
often enough, or simply as the result of a breakdown of some kind.
Don't forget Angus.
Post by michael adams
So that's a clear failure of management on two counts.
First a failure to run the RAT often enough in this particular
instance. And second a failure to implement a training programme
allowing for the possibility that for some reason the line
might be covered in wet leaves or similar making it exceptionally
slippery.
OK, you win, every problem is by definition caused by evil, incompetent
management, and the drivers are all perfect human beings, incapable of any
human frailty. All of the occasions when they take industrial action are
completely justified, and the unions are there purely to look after the
safety of passengers.
Roland Perry
2017-04-09 08:37:10 UTC
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Post by michael adams
Post by Recliner
The wheel flats were not caused by lack of maintenance. They were
caused by drivers locking the brakes on slippery track, causing the
wheels to slide along the track, which creates a flat spot. That's a
combination of a possible lack of drivers' skills and LU's failure to
use the RAT frequently enough after Storm Angus brought down a lot of
leaves in a short period.
How is LU's failure to use the RAT frequently enough to keep the
track clear of leaves, not evidence of a lack of maintenance ?
Because in the case last year, the leaves fell pretty much all in one go
as the result on one storm.
--
Roland Perry
Basil Jet
2017-04-08 15:03:24 UTC
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I've always wondered... do the wheel lathes merely subtract metal, so a
wheel with a three millimetre dent comes out losing three millimetres of
radius, or do they pour some liquid metal on the dent, wait for it to
cool and then lathe it down to the same radius as the rest of the wheel?
Recliner
2017-04-08 15:21:55 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
I've always wondered... do the wheel lathes merely subtract metal, so a
wheel with a three millimetre dent comes out losing three millimetres of
radius, or do they pour some liquid metal on the dent, wait for it to
cool and then lathe it down to the same radius as the rest of the wheel?
I'm pretty sure they just skim material off. You couldn't add an alloy with
the right characteristics. It would also damage the wheel's heat treatment
if you poured liquid steel on to it.

Incidentally, it's a flat, not a dent. In effect, a section of the circular
profile has been planed off when the locked wheel slid along the track.
h***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-04-08 17:02:21 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
I've always wondered... do the wheel lathes merely subtract metal, so a
wheel with a three millimetre dent comes out losing three millimetres of
radius, or do they pour some liquid metal on the dent, wait for it to
cool and then lathe it down to the same radius as the rest of the wheel?
I'm pretty sure they just skim material off. You couldn't add an alloy with
the right characteristics. It would also damage the wheel's heat treatment
if you poured liquid steel on to it.
Where are they going to get the liquid steel as they do not have an EAF
or a reheater nearby? Plus, it would indeed damage the existing wheel.
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-04-08 17:24:01 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
I've always wondered... do the wheel lathes merely subtract metal, so
a wheel with a three millimetre dent comes out losing three
millimetres of radius, or do they pour some liquid metal on the dent,
wait for it to cool and then lathe it down to the same radius as the
rest of the wheel?
The former. The extra metal comes at the wheel replacement stage.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-04-08 17:24:01 UTC
Reply
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Post by Recliner
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 13:41:52 +0100, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Post by r***@ntlworld.com
Is there within all that verbiage an explanation of
how and why the job is going down the pan?
Take for example the recent train shortages and restricted
running on the Piccadilly Line.
My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway
this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually
by refacing the effected wheels on lathes.
Not eventually, but as soon as possible. But the capacity of the wheel
lathe is limited, and it can't deal with a huge number of flat spots
overnight.
Post by michael adams
Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach
to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO
this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in
the first place.
The first the travelling public knew about any of this were stories of
drivers refusing to take out trains.
No, the trains were taken out of service because of severe wheels
flats. Nobody disputes that they needed to be taken out of service.
Post by michael adams
Which immediately put the drivers
in a bad light - they were simply being difficult - as with all their
actions. If it's not about money then 'its all politically motivated
etc. etc.
No, the wheel flats didn't put the drivers in a bad light.
Post by michael adams
Whereas in fact drivers should never find themselves in the position
where they're having to refuse take out trains as a direct result of
slipshod maintenance. As its their neck which will be on the line if
anything goes wrong.
Clearly they were correct in their refusal in this case, and for
outsiders there's no real way of knowing how many of their other concerns
are equally justified. As their public representatives, union officials
etc are either very poor communicators or are denied sufficient
opportunities to put over their case.
Basically in such a situation when its impossible to have any confidence
ether in the management of the organisation for whom you work or in the
ability your representatives to put over your case to the public
the job is indeed going down the pan.
I don't think the drivers were refusing to drive trains with wheel
flats. That was a different issue. They have variously complained of
door and brake problems, and you've confused two completely different
episodes.
The wheel flats were not caused by lack of maintenance. They were
caused by drivers locking the brakes on slippery track, causing the
wheels to slide along the track, which creates a flat spot. That's a
combination of a possible lack of drivers' skills and LU's failure to
use the RAT frequently enough after Storm Angus brought down a lot of
leaves in a short period.
If the trains had been newer, they'd have had WSP (Wheel Slide
Protection), which would have reduced the incidence of flats. They
would also have had wheels that were easier to swap in the depot. And
if they were older, they'd have had tread brakes. So the 1973 stock
trains are particularly vulnerable to wheel flats, and they happen to
run on a fairly leafy line.
<http://www.londonreconnections.com/2016/wear-and-lathing-problem-with-the-pi
ccadilly-lines-trains/>

That article doesn't identify the reason for not having the portable wheel
lathe last year. The answer is that Greater Anglia got in first and were
very grateful to have it to cut their wheel flats problem last autumn.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2017-04-09 08:35:27 UTC
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Post by michael adams
My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway
this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually
by refacing the effected wheels on lathes.
Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach
to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO
this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the
first place.
If there's a massive leaf-fall (as happened last Autumn as a combination
of medium term weather conditions plus one of the big storms) the only
way to prevent the wheel flats would be to stop running the trains. And
passengers already get cross when trains are scheduled to run slower in
leaf-fall season.

Having got the wheel flats, they literally can't be fixed overnight.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-04-09 23:05:42 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by michael adams
My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway
this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually
by refacing the effected wheels on lathes.
Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach to
maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO this
isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the
first place.
If there's a massive leaf-fall (as happened last Autumn as a
combination of medium term weather conditions plus one of the big
storms) the only way to prevent the wheel flats would be to stop
running the trains. And passengers already get cross when trains are
scheduled to run slower in leaf-fall season.
Having got the wheel flats, they literally can't be fixed overnight.
They would have been able to deal with the wheel flats a lot quicker but for
Greater Anglia getting the portable wheel lathe before them.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
michael adams
2017-04-10 09:01:56 UTC
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Post by michael adams
My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway
this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually
by refacing the effected wheels on lathes.
Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach
to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO
this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the
first place.
If there's a massive leaf-fall (as happened last Autumn as a combination of medium term
weather conditions plus one of the big storms) the only way to prevent the wheel flats
would be to stop running the trains.
Or how about taking the first two or three scheduled trains out of service,
in both directions on the Uxbridge line where most of the problems
appear to arise, and run the RAT up and down instead between Acton Town
and Uxbridge ?


michael adams

...





And
passengers already get cross when trains are scheduled to run slower in leaf-fall
season.
Having got the wheel flats, they literally can't be fixed overnight.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2017-04-10 09:12:35 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by michael adams
Post by michael adams
My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway
this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually
by refacing the effected wheels on lathes.
Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach
to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO
this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the
first place.
If there's a massive leaf-fall (as happened last Autumn as a combination of medium term
weather conditions plus one of the big storms) the only way to prevent the wheel flats
would be to stop running the trains.
Or how about taking the first two or three scheduled trains out of service,
in both directions on the Uxbridge line where most of the problems
appear to arise, and run the RAT up and down instead between Acton Town
and Uxbridge ?
You are assuming they have such trains for the stretch from Acton Town
to Rayners Lane.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-04-10 13:28:28 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by michael adams
Post by michael adams
My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway
this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually
by refacing the effected wheels on lathes.
Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach
to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO
this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the
first place.
If there's a massive leaf-fall (as happened last Autumn as a combination of medium term
weather conditions plus one of the big storms) the only way to prevent the wheel flats
would be to stop running the trains.
Or how about taking the first two or three scheduled trains out of service,
in both directions on the Uxbridge line where most of the problems
appear to arise, and run the RAT up and down instead between Acton Town
and Uxbridge ?
You are assuming they have such trains for the stretch from Acton Town
to Rayners Lane.
They do, of course.
Roland Perry
2017-04-11 07:33:13 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by michael adams
Post by michael adams
My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway
this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually
by refacing the effected wheels on lathes.
Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach
to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO
this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the
first place.
If there's a massive leaf-fall (as happened last Autumn as a combination of medium term
weather conditions plus one of the big storms) the only way to prevent the wheel flats
would be to stop running the trains.
Or how about taking the first two or three scheduled trains out of service,
in both directions on the Uxbridge line where most of the problems
appear to arise, and run the RAT up and down instead between Acton Town
and Uxbridge ?
You are assuming they have such trains for the stretch from Acton Town
to Rayners Lane.
They do, of course.
Others say they only have them for the Central and Met.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-04-11 07:46:15 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by michael adams
Post by michael adams
My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway
this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually
by refacing the effected wheels on lathes.
Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach
to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO
this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the
first place.
If there's a massive leaf-fall (as happened last Autumn as a combination of medium term
weather conditions plus one of the big storms) the only way to prevent the wheel flats
would be to stop running the trains.
Or how about taking the first two or three scheduled trains out of service,
in both directions on the Uxbridge line where most of the problems
appear to arise, and run the RAT up and down instead between Acton Town
and Uxbridge ?
You are assuming they have such trains for the stretch from Acton Town
to Rayners Lane.
They do, of course.
Others say they only have them for the Central and Met.
Yes, but the A-stock RATs (now replaced by two newer D-stock RATs) covered
that section. Here's a pic (not mine) of the A-stock RAT at Ealing Common,
alongside an in-service D78:
Loading Image...
Recliner
2017-04-10 13:27:56 UTC
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On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:01:56 +0100, "michael adams"
Post by michael adams
Post by michael adams
My technical knowledge is limited but as I understand it anyway
this was because of wheel flats, and the problem was solved eventually
by refacing the effected wheels on lathes.
Now while on the one hand maybe, taking a belt and braces approach
to maintenance is uneconomic in today's climate, nevertheless IMO
this isn't a situation which shouldn't have been allowed to develop in the
first place.
If there's a massive leaf-fall (as happened last Autumn as a combination of medium term
weather conditions plus one of the big storms) the only way to prevent the wheel flats
would be to stop running the trains.
Or how about taking the first two or three scheduled trains out of service,
in both directions on the Uxbridge line where most of the problems
appear to arise, and run the RAT up and down instead between Acton Town
and Uxbridge ?
How many RATs does LU have that can run on the Piccadilly Line? In
fact, LU also ran the A-stock RAT on the Rayner's Lane to Ealing
Common section because of the problems.
tim...
2017-04-08 12:48:59 UTC
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Post by r***@ntlworld.com
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
http://www.version3point1.co.uk/blog/2017/2/24/tea-for-the-soul
" [...] the other day I went to speak to The Boss Man about the
possibility of handing in my notice, as I now have an Escape Plan.
Boss Man was understandably quite excited that I’d been offered a
better job elsewhere, but perhaps that may be something to do with the
fact that he is looking to retire – and because it’s quite clear to
everyone that The Job is going down the pan, and that people should
really have either a Backup Plan or an Escape Plan. In fact, it’s the
Boss Man that has been nagging me these last 3-4 years about making
sure I have an Escape Plan. "
--
jhk
Is there within all that verbiage an explanation of
how and why the job is going down the pan?
or even any claim that they're a tube driver
Jarle Hammen Knudsen
2017-04-08 13:30:45 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by r***@ntlworld.com
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
http://www.version3point1.co.uk/blog/2017/2/24/tea-for-the-soul
Is there within all that verbiage an explanation of
how and why the job is going down the pan?
or even any claim that they're a tube driver
http://www.version3point1.co.uk/anne

"is a subterranean train driver instructor"

Also says she is Vice Chairperson of ASLEF, Neasden Branch, Distirct
8.


http://blog.flickr.net/en/2013/06/15/meet-anne-3-1-maningas/

"At daytime, Anne has made one of her dreams turn into reality and is
driving trains for the world’s most famous public transport network:
The London Underground."
--
jhk
Clank
2017-04-08 16:42:34 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by r***@ntlworld.com
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
http://www.version3point1.co.uk/blog/2017/2/24/tea-for-the-soul
" [...] the other day I went to speak to The Boss Man about the
possibility of handing in my notice, as I now have an Escape Plan.
Boss Man was understandably quite excited that I’d been offered a
better job elsewhere, but perhaps that may be something to do with the
fact that he is looking to retire – and because it’s quite clear to
everyone that The Job is going down the pan, and that people should
really have either a Backup Plan or an Escape Plan. In fact, it’s the
Boss Man that has been nagging me these last 3-4 years about making
sure I have an Escape Plan. "
--
jhk
Is there within all that verbiage an explanation of
how and why the job is going down the pan?
or even any claim that they're a tube driver
If anyone even made a cursory attempt to read it, you'd know that they were
a tube driver who'd also had the misfortune to experience someone jumping
in front of their train recently which was at least a part of their
reasoning for revaluating things.

I'm sure that's not why they feel the job is going down the pan, but it
doubtless does colour their perspective of the desirability of the role. A
deal of sympathy is deserved.


(I'm not sure I know anyone* in any job who has not at some time or another
complained that they work for idiots, it's all going to pot, etc. etc.
etc... And that's without the added stress of someone using you in their
suicide attempt.)



* I include the self employed ;-)
Steve Fitzgerald
2017-04-08 23:17:42 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by r***@ntlworld.com
Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
http://www.version3point1.co.uk/blog/2017/2/24/tea-for-the-soul
" [...] the other day I went to speak to The Boss Man about the
possibility of handing in my notice, as I now have an Escape Plan.
Boss Man was understandably quite excited that I’d been offered a
better job elsewhere, but perhaps that may be something to do with the
fact that he is looking to retire – and because it’s quite clear to
everyone that The Job is going down the pan, and that people should
really have either a Backup Plan or an Escape Plan. In fact, it’s the
Boss Man that has been nagging me these last 3-4 years about making
sure I have an Escape Plan. "
-- jhk
Is there within all that verbiage an explanation of
how and why the job is going down the pan?
or even any claim that they're a tube driver
Apart from the evidence submitted, I know her personally and can confirm
her status.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)
Loading...