Discussion:
When will the 700s reach moorgate?
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b***@cylonHQ.com
2018-03-28 11:08:36 UTC
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I used the moorgate line today. Still no sign of the 700s down there, just
the usual 313s which don't look like they've had any TLC for a long time
now. Are the 700s still waiting approval to run down there or do great northern
want to use the 700s on just the express routes initiallt?
Paul Corfield
2018-03-28 11:36:25 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I used the moorgate line today. Still no sign of the 700s down there, just
the usual 313s which don't look like they've had any TLC for a long time
now. Are the 700s still waiting approval to run down there or do great northern
want to use the 700s on just the express routes initiallt?
700s will not run to Moorgate as they are too long and do not have cab doors for tunnel evacuation. GTR ordered a variant called the 717 which will replace the 313s. This are 6 cars long and do have centre cab doors. The first train is under test on the continent. I believe that they are due in service from the Autumn this year once fleet deliveries start and all of the necessary testing has been completed. So not too long before the 313s start to head to the scrap heap.
--
Paul C
via Google
b***@cylonHQ.com
2018-03-28 14:26:26 UTC
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On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 04:36:25 -0700 (PDT)
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I used the moorgate line today. Still no sign of the 700s down there, jus=
t
the usual 313s which don't look like they've had any TLC for a long time
now. Are the 700s still waiting approval to run down there or do great no=
rthern
want to use the 700s on just the express routes initiallt?
700s will not run to Moorgate as they are too long and do not have cab door=
s for tunnel evacuation. GTR ordered a variant called the 717 which will re=
place the 313s. This are 6 cars long and do have centre cab doors. The fir=
One has to wonder why they didn't just specify centre cab doors for all of
them.

Do you know if they'll be 2+3 seating like the 313s?
Basil Jet
2018-03-28 15:00:23 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 04:36:25 -0700 (PDT)
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I used the moorgate line today. Still no sign of the 700s down there, jus=
t
the usual 313s which don't look like they've had any TLC for a long time
now. Are the 700s still waiting approval to run down there or do great no=
rthern
want to use the 700s on just the express routes initiallt?
700s will not run to Moorgate as they are too long and do not have cab door=
s for tunnel evacuation. GTR ordered a variant called the 717 which will re=
place the 313s. This are 6 cars long and do have centre cab doors. The fir=
One has to wonder why they didn't just specify centre cab doors for all of
them.
Because then you would have complained that the 8- and 12-car trains had
wasted money on gangway doors which only the 6-car trains needed.
b***@cylonHQ.com
2018-03-28 15:52:48 UTC
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On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 16:00:23 +0100
Post by Basil Jet
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 04:36:25 -0700 (PDT)
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I used the moorgate line today. Still no sign of the 700s down there, jus=
t
the usual 313s which don't look like they've had any TLC for a long time
now. Are the 700s still waiting approval to run down there or do great no=
rthern
want to use the 700s on just the express routes initiallt?
700s will not run to Moorgate as they are too long and do not have cab door=
s for tunnel evacuation. GTR ordered a variant called the 717 which will re=
place the 313s. This are 6 cars long and do have centre cab doors. The fir=
One has to wonder why they didn't just specify centre cab doors for all of
them.
Because then you would have complained that the 8- and 12-car trains had
wasted money on gangway doors which only the 6-car trains needed.
So you think fleet interoperatibility is a bad thing then? Marshalling train
lengths was a solved problem in the 19th century.
Basil Jet
2018-03-28 16:07:33 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 16:00:23 +0100
Post by Basil Jet
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 04:36:25 -0700 (PDT)
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
I used the moorgate line today. Still no sign of the 700s down there, jus=
t
the usual 313s which don't look like they've had any TLC for a long time
now. Are the 700s still waiting approval to run down there or do great no=
rthern
want to use the 700s on just the express routes initiallt?
700s will not run to Moorgate as they are too long and do not have cab door=
s for tunnel evacuation. GTR ordered a variant called the 717 which will re=
place the 313s. This are 6 cars long and do have centre cab doors. The fir=
One has to wonder why they didn't just specify centre cab doors for all of
them.
Because then you would have complained that the 8- and 12-car trains had
wasted money on gangway doors which only the 6-car trains needed.
So you think fleet interoperatibility is a bad thing then?
I think I am less qualified to comment on it here than the people who
made the decision.
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Marshalling train
lengths was a solved problem in the 19th century.
With dumb carriages pulled by a loco. In an EMU the compressor goes
under one carriage, the transformer goes under another and so on to
equalise the weight, and I would guess that no combination of six
carriages can be removed from a 12-car 700 to get a functional six car
train, although I don't actually know, but the decision over the stock
was made by someone who did.

Anyway, when the 700s were ordered, they might not have even decided yet
that the Moorgate trains would be from the same manufacturer. If they
told the supplier that they had made that decision, that would drive up
the cost of the latter fleet, unless they signed for both fleets at the
same time, which they might not have been authorised to do.
b***@cylonHQ.com
2018-03-29 09:04:29 UTC
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On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 17:07:33 +0100
Post by Basil Jet
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
So you think fleet interoperatibility is a bad thing then?
I think I am less qualified to comment on it here than the people who
made the decision.
Long termism rarely seems to come into railway decision making these days.
Cost is all that matters - witness the cheap, rock hard seats in the 700s.
In 10 years time I doubt new trains will even have fabric on their seats,
it'll be bare plastic like in eastern europe.
Post by Basil Jet
equalise the weight, and I would guess that no combination of six
carriages can be removed from a 12-car 700 to get a functional six car
train, although I don't actually know, but the decision over the stock
was made by someone who did.
Unlikely. More a case of Siemens presented a product which they bought.
Post by Basil Jet
Anyway, when the 700s were ordered, they might not have even decided yet
that the Moorgate trains would be from the same manufacturer. If they
If they didn't then they were bloody fools. But having watched the paddington
program on C5 I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that working for the
railways is where fools end up.
Arthur Figgis
2018-03-29 19:46:26 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Anyway, when the 700s were ordered, they might not have even decided yet
that the Moorgate trains would be from the same manufacturer. If they
The 700s were bought by DfT through a custom structure, the 717s were
ordered by GTR via a leasing company.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Roland Perry
2018-03-28 15:07:49 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
700s will not run to Moorgate as they are too long and do not have cab door=
s for tunnel evacuation. GTR ordered a variant called the 717 which will re=
place the 313s. This are 6 cars long and do have centre cab doors. The fir=
Do you know if they'll be 2+3 seating like the 313s?
There's no reason to expect the interiors to differ from the 700's
--
Roland Perry
Arthur Figgis
2018-03-29 19:47:08 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
700s will not run to Moorgate as they are too long and do not have cab door=
s for tunnel evacuation. GTR ordered a variant called the 717 which will re=
place the 313s. This are 6 cars long and do have centre cab doors.
The fir=
Do you know if they'll be 2+3 seating like the 313s?
There's no reason to expect the interiors to differ from the 700's
No tiolets.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Roland Perry
2018-03-30 07:07:34 UTC
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In message <***@brightview.co.uk>, at
20:47:08 on Thu, 29 Mar 2018, Arthur Figgis
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
700s will not run to Moorgate as they are too long and do not have cab door=
s for tunnel evacuation. GTR ordered a variant called the 717 which will re=
place the 313s. This are 6 cars long and do have centre cab doors.
The fir=
Do you know if they'll be 2+3 seating like the 313s?
There's no reason to expect the interiors to differ from the 700's
No tiolets.
Fair enough. And the style of seating?
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2018-03-30 11:54:49 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
20:47:08 on Thu, 29 Mar 2018, Arthur Figgis
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Paul Corfield
700s will not run to Moorgate as they are too long and do not have
cab doors for tunnel evacuation. GTR ordered a variant called the 717
which will replace the 313s. This are 6 cars long and do have centre
cab doors. The fir
Do you know if they'll be 2+3 seating like the 313s?
There's no reason to expect the interiors to differ from the 700's
No tiolets.
Fair enough. And the style of seating?
Following current fashion, no doubt. I visited Wimbledon Traincare Depot
recently but forgot to take a close enough look at the class 707s there to
see how their seats compare with those on the 700s. I am told they are
similar.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2018-03-30 12:11:41 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
20:47:08 on Thu, 29 Mar 2018, Arthur Figgis
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Paul Corfield
700s will not run to Moorgate as they are too long and do not have
cab doors for tunnel evacuation. GTR ordered a variant called the 717
which will replace the 313s. This are 6 cars long and do have centre
cab doors. The fir
Do you know if they'll be 2+3 seating like the 313s?
There's no reason to expect the interiors to differ from the 700's
No tiolets.
Fair enough. And the style of seating?
Following current fashion, no doubt.
Unlikely to be 3+2, then; which was all that had been asked.
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
I visited Wimbledon Traincare Depot recently but forgot to take a close
enough look at the class 707s there to see how their seats compare with
those on the 700s. I am told they are similar.
A mixture of 2+2 and 2+1, I think.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2018-03-30 18:31:30 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
20:47:08 on Thu, 29 Mar 2018, Arthur Figgis
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Paul Corfield
700s will not run to Moorgate as they are too long and do not have
cab doors for tunnel evacuation. GTR ordered a variant called the
717 which will replace the 313s. This are 6 cars long and do have
centre cab doors. The fir
Do you know if they'll be 2+3 seating like the 313s?
There's no reason to expect the interiors to differ from the 700's
No tiolets.
Fair enough. And the style of seating?
Following current fashion, no doubt.
Unlikely to be 3+2, then; which was all that had been asked.
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
I visited Wimbledon Traincare Depot recently but forgot to take a close
enough look at the class 707s there to see how their seats compare with
those on the 700s. I am told they are similar.
A mixture of 2+2 and 2+1, I think.
That was only part of the question. No tables I think is true. Siemens have
form on that score on South Western - vide the 450s which are used on
express services with refreshments trolleys despite that definite handicap.

The other question is seat spacing and lack of armrests, something of a new
low on the 700s.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2018-03-31 08:49:29 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
20:47:08 on Thu, 29 Mar 2018, Arthur Figgis
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Paul Corfield
700s will not run to Moorgate as they are too long and do not have
cab doors for tunnel evacuation. GTR ordered a variant called the
717 which will replace the 313s. This are 6 cars long and do have
centre cab doors. The fir
Do you know if they'll be 2+3 seating like the 313s?
**************************************************
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Arthur Figgis
0's
No tiolets.
Fair enough. And the style of seating?
Following current fashion, no doubt.
Unlikely to be 3+2, then; which was all that had been asked.
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
I visited Wimbledon Traincare Depot recently but forgot to take a close
enough look at the class 707s there to see how their seats compare with
those on the 700s. I am told they are similar.
A mixture of 2+2 and 2+1, I think.
That was only part of the question.
It was the whole question (see above), but more answers are nevertheless
welcome.
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
No tables I think is true. Siemens have
form on that score on South Western - vide the 450s which are used on
express services with refreshments trolleys despite that definite handicap.
The other question is seat spacing and lack of armrests, something of a new
low on the 700s.
--
Roland Perry
b***@cylonHQ.com
2018-03-31 16:34:39 UTC
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On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 13:31:30 -0500
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
20:47:08 on Thu, 29 Mar 2018, Arthur Figgis
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Roland Perry
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Paul Corfield
700s will not run to Moorgate as they are too long and do not have
cab doors for tunnel evacuation. GTR ordered a variant called the
717 which will replace the 313s. This are 6 cars long and do have
centre cab doors. The fir
Do you know if they'll be 2+3 seating like the 313s?
There's no reason to expect the interiors to differ from the 700's
No tiolets.
Fair enough. And the style of seating?
Following current fashion, no doubt.
Unlikely to be 3+2, then; which was all that had been asked.
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
I visited Wimbledon Traincare Depot recently but forgot to take a close
enough look at the class 707s there to see how their seats compare with
those on the 700s. I am told they are similar.
A mixture of 2+2 and 2+1, I think.
That was only part of the question. No tables I think is true. Siemens have
form on that score on South Western - vide the 450s which are used on
express services with refreshments trolleys despite that definite handicap.
The other question is seat spacing and lack of armrests, something of a new
low on the 700s.
The race to the bottom for passenger comfort continues unabated it seems.
I find it hard to believe an extra bit of padding and armrests for the seats
would even make a blip in the final cost of each train, but I guess they must
do it for financial reasons. Unless it is purely out of spite.
John Williamson
2018-03-31 22:07:32 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
The race to the bottom for passenger comfort continues unabated it seems.
I find it hard to believe an extra bit of padding and armrests for the seats
would even make a blip in the final cost of each train, but I guess they must
do it for financial reasons. Unless it is purely out of spite.
From experience on buses and coaches, the extra cost comes in the time
it takes to clean padded seats either daily or after a puking incident.

On one notorious occasion (In the 1970s), The Man From The Ministry took
every single RM on one route off the road for "dirty seats", after
someone had upset him. If there is no padding or cloth involved, then
the dust from passengers' skin can't build up and need a deep clean
every day or two.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.
Recliner
2018-03-31 23:46:18 UTC
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Post by John Williamson
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
The race to the bottom for passenger comfort continues unabated it seems.
I find it hard to believe an extra bit of padding and armrests for the seats
would even make a blip in the final cost of each train, but I guess they must
do it for financial reasons. Unless it is purely out of spite.
From experience on buses and coaches, the extra cost comes in the time
it takes to clean padded seats either daily or after a puking incident.
But the rock hard new train seats *are* padded. However, the padding is
much too thin, there's no spring base and the seats are badly shaped and
too upright. The armrests are either missing or too short, and the spacer
between seat pairs is often absent.

The problem is that most train buyers don't specify that they require
comfortable seats, but do want the train to cost less. If they demanded
comfortable seats, the train builders would fit them from new; retrofitting
them after delivery would cost much more.
Post by John Williamson
On one notorious occasion (In the 1970s), The Man From The Ministry took
every single RM on one route off the road for "dirty seats", after
someone had upset him. If there is no padding or cloth involved, then
the dust from passengers' skin can't build up and need a deep clean
every day or two.
We don't usually (yet) have hard plastic or metal shell seats in UK buses
and trains. But upholstery alone doesn't make seats comfortable; they also
need padding and an ergonomic shape, with a sloping seat base and lumbar
support.

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