Discussion:
First LEVC TX London black cabs now operational
(too old to reply)
Recliner
2018-01-23 21:15:34 UTC
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This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the look of
the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite old-fashioned
('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the skin (unlike the
primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets, they should start to
clean up the dirty air in central London.

<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-black-cab-now-operational-capital>
Offramp
2018-01-24 01:33:41 UTC
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Post by Recliner
This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the look of
the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite old-fashioned
('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the skin (unlike the
primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets, they should start to
clean up the dirty air in central London.
<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-black-cab-now-operational-capital>
It looks great.
Basil Jet
2018-01-24 04:14:08 UTC
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Post by Offramp
Post by Recliner
This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the look of
the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite old-fashioned
('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the skin (unlike the
primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets, they should start to
clean up the dirty air in central London.
<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-black-cab-now-operational-capital>
It looks great.
I'm surprised that it needs a grille the same size as a diesel one. That
suggests that its motor might produce as much heat as a diesel engine.

I'm also wondering why the old one has such beefy hubcaps if the new one
can get by without them.
Someone Somewhere
2018-01-24 08:46:07 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by Recliner
This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the look of
the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite old-fashioned
('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the skin (unlike the
primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets, they should start to
clean up the dirty air in central London.
<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-black-cab-now-operational-capital>
It looks great.
I'm surprised that it needs a grille the same size as a diesel one. That
suggests that its motor might produce as much heat as a diesel engine.
If it produces that much heat they should be turning it back into energy
- I suspect more the grille gives the taxi it's "face" and makes it more
recognisable as an evolution in the series.

What I dislike is the fact the news article failed to show any photos of
the passenger area - surely it doesn't matter what the damn thing looks
like as long as it works for those using (and driving - although this
was shown in passing) it.
Robin
2018-01-24 09:20:50 UTC
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On 24/01/2018 08:46, Someone Somewhere wrote:
<snip>
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Basil Jet
I'm surprised that it needs a grille the same size as a diesel one.
That suggests that its motor might produce as much heat as a diesel
engine.
If it produces that much heat they should be turning it back into energy
- I suspect more the grille gives the taxi it's "face" and makes it more
recognisable as an evolution in the series.
There's also the need for airflow over the air conditioning condenser.

Plus, some cynics might say, the need for stones to be able to hit the
a/c condenser to generate work for the dealers which ain't covered by
the warranty ;)
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Roland Perry
2018-01-24 09:29:33 UTC
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Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Basil Jet
I'm surprised that it needs a grille the same size as a diesel one.
That suggests that its motor might produce as much heat as a diesel
engine.
If it produces that much heat they should be turning it back into energy
The fuel consumption is quoted as a third of the current TX4. Although
it's not clear whether the cost of the overnight charge (a fiver a day
perhaps) is included in that. Of course such electricity is barely taxed
(unlike petroleum products). And all put together adds some context to
this other story today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42792813

So that might push up the operating costs if TPTB seek to replace the
lost tax [at current rates, about half] on the £100/week fuel saving.
Post by Someone Somewhere
- I suspect more the grille gives the taxi it's "face" and makes it
more recognisable as an evolution in the series.
Yes, it's undoubtedly styling (not functional).
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-24 09:46:56 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Basil Jet
I'm surprised that it needs a grille the same size as a diesel one.
That suggests that its motor might produce as much heat as a diesel
engine.
If it produces that much heat they should be turning it back into energy
The fuel consumption is quoted as a third of the current TX4. Although
it's not clear whether the cost of the overnight charge (a fiver a day
perhaps) is included in that. Of course such electricity is barely taxed
(unlike petroleum products). And all put together adds some context to
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42792813
So that might push up the operating costs if TPTB seek to replace the
lost tax [at current rates, about half] on the £100/week fuel saving.
Post by Someone Somewhere
- I suspect more the grille gives the taxi it's "face" and makes it
more recognisable as an evolution in the series.
Yes, it's undoubtedly styling (not functional).
Obviously, if according to you, the grille is "undoubtedly styling (not
functional)," the turbo engine, batteries and electric motor, plus the
aircon, must not need cooling.
Roland Perry
2018-01-24 10:17:16 UTC
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<1602879084.538479801.342131.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-sept
ember.org>, at 09:46:56 on Wed, 24 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Someone Somewhere
- I suspect more the grille gives the taxi it's "face" and makes it
more recognisable as an evolution in the series.
Yes, it's undoubtedly styling (not functional).
Obviously, if according to you, the grille is "undoubtedly styling (not
functional)," the turbo engine, batteries and electric motor, plus the
aircon, must not need cooling.
They don't need *that size of* grill.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-24 09:56:55 UTC
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Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by Recliner
This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the look of
the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite old-fashioned
('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the skin (unlike the
primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets, they should start to
clean up the dirty air in central London.
<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-black-cab-now-operational-capital>
It looks great.
I'm surprised that it needs a grille the same size as a diesel one. That
suggests that its motor might produce as much heat as a diesel engine.
If it produces that much heat they should be turning it back into energy
- I suspect more the grille gives the taxi it's "face" and makes it more
recognisable as an evolution in the series.
What I dislike is the fact the news article failed to show any photos of
the passenger area - surely it doesn't matter what the damn thing looks
like as long as it works for those using (and driving - although this
was shown in passing) it.
Not hard to find in other articles:

<Loading Image...

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<Loading Image...

<Loading Image...

<Loading Image...

<Loading Image...

<Loading Image...>

<Loading Image...
Neil Williams
2018-01-24 09:28:51 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
I'm surprised that it needs a grille the same size as a diesel one.
It probably doesn't, it's probably a stylistic point.

Neil
Recliner
2018-01-24 09:43:35 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by Recliner
This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the look of
the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite old-fashioned
('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the skin (unlike the
primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets, they should start to
clean up the dirty air in central London.
<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-black-cab-now-operational-capital>
It looks great.
I'm surprised that it needs a grille the same size as a diesel one. That
suggests that its motor might produce as much heat as a diesel engine.
I'm also wondering why the old one has such beefy hubcaps if the new one
can get by without them.
There's a 3-cylinder turbo 1.5l 81 hp Volvo range-extender engine under the
bonnet. Plus the 33 kWh LG battery pack and 110 kW Siemens electric motor
will also need cooling.
b***@cylonHQ.com
2018-01-24 09:49:39 UTC
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On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 09:43:35 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by Recliner
This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the look of
the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite old-fashioned
('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the skin (unlike the
primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets, they should start to
clean up the dirty air in central London.
<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-black-cab-now
operational-capital>
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
It looks great.
I'm surprised that it needs a grille the same size as a diesel one. That
suggests that its motor might produce as much heat as a diesel engine.
I'm also wondering why the old one has such beefy hubcaps if the new one
can get by without them.
There's a 3-cylinder turbo 1.5l 81 hp Volvo range-extender engine under the
bonnet. Plus the 33 kWh LG battery pack and 110 kW Siemens electric motor
will also need cooling.
What are the odds that the "range extender" starts being required most days
shortly after lunchtime since the 80 mile electric only range is almost
certainly top end on a good day downhill with a tail wind. And since this
engine goes via a generator and can't power the wheels direct you're going
to get some pretty significant energy losses. I suspect the cabbies who buy
this will find out that its overall savings arn't as good as they expected.
Recliner
2018-01-24 10:06:04 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 09:43:35 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by Recliner
This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the look of
the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite old-fashioned
('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the skin (unlike the
primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets, they should start to
clean up the dirty air in central London.
<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-black-cab-now
operational-capital>
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
It looks great.
I'm surprised that it needs a grille the same size as a diesel one. That
suggests that its motor might produce as much heat as a diesel engine.
I'm also wondering why the old one has such beefy hubcaps if the new one
can get by without them.
There's a 3-cylinder turbo 1.5l 81 hp Volvo range-extender engine under the
bonnet. Plus the 33 kWh LG battery pack and 110 kW Siemens electric motor
will also need cooling.
What are the odds that the "range extender" starts being required most days
shortly after lunchtime since the 80 mile electric only range is almost
certainly top end on a good day downhill with a tail wind. And since this
engine goes via a generator and can't power the wheels direct you're going
to get some pretty significant energy losses. I suspect the cabbies who buy
this will find out that its overall savings arn't as good as they expected.
Yes, the battery might need topping up during the working day:

<http://www.levc.com/technology/charging-tx/>

<http://www.levc.com/tx-electric-taxi-charging-map/>
Someone Somewhere
2018-01-24 09:57:56 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by Recliner
This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the look of
the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite old-fashioned
('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the skin (unlike the
primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets, they should start to
clean up the dirty air in central London.
<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-black-cab-now-operational-capital>
It looks great.
I'm surprised that it needs a grille the same size as a diesel one. That
suggests that its motor might produce as much heat as a diesel engine.
I'm also wondering why the old one has such beefy hubcaps if the new one
can get by without them.
There's a 3-cylinder turbo 1.5l 81 hp Volvo range-extender engine under the
bonnet. Plus the 33 kWh LG battery pack and 110 kW Siemens electric motor
will also need cooling.
Sounds like an incredibly weedy output for a turbo engine of that size.
Recliner
2018-01-24 10:06:05 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by Recliner
This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the look of
the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite old-fashioned
('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the skin (unlike the
primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets, they should start to
clean up the dirty air in central London.
<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-black-cab-now-operational-capital>
It looks great.
I'm surprised that it needs a grille the same size as a diesel one. That
suggests that its motor might produce as much heat as a diesel engine.
I'm also wondering why the old one has such beefy hubcaps if the new one
can get by without them.
There's a 3-cylinder turbo 1.5l 81 hp Volvo range-extender engine under the
bonnet. Plus the 33 kWh LG battery pack and 110 kW Siemens electric motor
will also need cooling.
Sounds like an incredibly weedy output for a turbo engine of that size.
Yes, it's pretty low. That's probably the setting that's cleanest and most
economical. It doesn't power the wheels, but just charges the battery, so I
presume it runs at a constant RPM at the optimum power/torque setting to
minimise noise, petrol consumption and pollution.
b***@cylonHQ.com
2018-01-24 10:36:11 UTC
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On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 10:06:05 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Someone Somewhere
Sounds like an incredibly weedy output for a turbo engine of that size.
Yes, it's pretty low. That's probably the setting that's cleanest and most
economical. It doesn't power the wheels, but just charges the battery, so I
presume it runs at a constant RPM at the optimum power/torque setting to
minimise noise, petrol consumption and pollution.
You'd think, but if the generators on hybrid buses are anything to go by
it won't, the rpm will be up and down and all over the place. From my
(admittedly limited) experience of the hybrid buses running around they seem
to have the generator running most of the time except at stops and shortly
after which IMO seems little better than having a stop-start system but with
a lot more complexity.
Roland Perry
2018-01-24 10:44:08 UTC
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From my (admittedly limited) experience of the hybrid buses running
around they seem to have the generator running most of the time except
at stops and shortly after which IMO seems little better than having a
stop-start system but with a lot more complexity.
The only hybrid buses which I've observed that closely (in Nottingham
circa 2010) had the curious property of gliding silently along the
roads, then deafening and fumigating the waiting passengers by starting
the diesel up the moment it came to rest at each bus stop.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-24 11:02:43 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 10:06:05 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Someone Somewhere
Sounds like an incredibly weedy output for a turbo engine of that size.
Yes, it's pretty low. That's probably the setting that's cleanest and most
economical. It doesn't power the wheels, but just charges the battery, so I
presume it runs at a constant RPM at the optimum power/torque setting to
minimise noise, petrol consumption and pollution.
You'd think, but if the generators on hybrid buses are anything to go by
it won't, the rpm will be up and down and all over the place. From my
(admittedly limited) experience of the hybrid buses running around they seem
to have the generator running most of the time except at stops and shortly
after which IMO seems little better than having a stop-start system but with
a lot more complexity.
I think the batteries on hybrid buses are relatively very much smaller than
this one, so they need very frequent recharging. They probably have a pure
electric range of well under a mile.
b***@cylonHQ.com
2018-01-24 11:35:18 UTC
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On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 11:02:43 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 10:06:05 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by Someone Somewhere
Sounds like an incredibly weedy output for a turbo engine of that size.
Yes, it's pretty low. That's probably the setting that's cleanest and most
economical. It doesn't power the wheels, but just charges the battery, so I
presume it runs at a constant RPM at the optimum power/torque setting to
minimise noise, petrol consumption and pollution.
You'd think, but if the generators on hybrid buses are anything to go by
it won't, the rpm will be up and down and all over the place. From my
(admittedly limited) experience of the hybrid buses running around they seem
to have the generator running most of the time except at stops and shortly
after which IMO seems little better than having a stop-start system but with
a lot more complexity.
I think the batteries on hybrid buses are relatively very much smaller than
this one, so they need very frequent recharging. They probably have a pure
electric range of well under a mile.
If true that wouldn't surprise me at all.
Roland Perry
2018-01-24 11:51:23 UTC
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In message
<679069986.538484188.281964.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 11:02:43 on Wed, 24 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Recliner
Post by Someone Somewhere
Sounds like an incredibly weedy output for a turbo engine of that size.
Yes, it's pretty low. That's probably the setting that's cleanest and most
economical. It doesn't power the wheels, but just charges the battery, so I
presume it runs at a constant RPM at the optimum power/torque setting to
minimise noise, petrol consumption and pollution.
You'd think, but if the generators on hybrid buses are anything to go by
it won't, the rpm will be up and down and all over the place. From my
(admittedly limited) experience of the hybrid buses running around they seem
to have the generator running most of the time except at stops and shortly
after which IMO seems little better than having a stop-start system but with
a lot more complexity.
I think the batteries on hybrid buses are relatively very much smaller than
this one, so they need very frequent recharging. They probably have a pure
electric range of well under a mile.
Depends on the size of battery, and how much it gets charged up
overnight. Boris buses have 75KWh batteries so should be good for
further than that.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-24 12:06:52 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 11:02:43 on Wed, 24 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Recliner
Post by Someone Somewhere
Sounds like an incredibly weedy output for a turbo engine of that size.
Yes, it's pretty low. That's probably the setting that's cleanest and most
economical. It doesn't power the wheels, but just charges the battery, so I
presume it runs at a constant RPM at the optimum power/torque setting to
minimise noise, petrol consumption and pollution.
You'd think, but if the generators on hybrid buses are anything to go by
it won't, the rpm will be up and down and all over the place. From my
(admittedly limited) experience of the hybrid buses running around they seem
to have the generator running most of the time except at stops and shortly
after which IMO seems little better than having a stop-start system but with
a lot more complexity.
I think the batteries on hybrid buses are relatively very much smaller than
this one, so they need very frequent recharging. They probably have a pure
electric range of well under a mile.
Depends on the size of battery, and how much it gets charged up
overnight. Boris buses have 75KWh batteries so should be good for
further than that.
One would think so, but they don't seem to be.
Mark
2018-01-30 00:18:20 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 11:02:43 on Wed, 24 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Recliner
Post by Someone Somewhere
Sounds like an incredibly weedy output for a turbo engine of that size.
Yes, it's pretty low. That's probably the setting that's cleanest and most
economical. It doesn't power the wheels, but just charges the battery, so I
presume it runs at a constant RPM at the optimum power/torque setting to
minimise noise, petrol consumption and pollution.
You'd think, but if the generators on hybrid buses are anything to go by
it won't, the rpm will be up and down and all over the place. From my
(admittedly limited) experience of the hybrid buses running around they seem
to have the generator running most of the time except at stops and shortly
after which IMO seems little better than having a stop-start system but with
a lot more complexity.
I think the batteries on hybrid buses are relatively very much smaller than
this one, so they need very frequent recharging. They probably have a pure
electric range of well under a mile.
Depends on the size of battery, and how much it gets charged up
overnight. Boris buses have 75KWh batteries so should be good for
further than that.
"The only hybrid buses which I've observed that closely (in Nottingham
circa 2010)"

Boris buses are not charged overnight, the only bus garages that have charging
facilities are those with electric fleets.
Recliner
2018-01-30 00:35:45 UTC
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Post by Mark
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 11:02:43 on Wed, 24 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Recliner
Post by Someone Somewhere
Sounds like an incredibly weedy output for a turbo engine of that size.
Yes, it's pretty low. That's probably the setting that's cleanest and most
economical. It doesn't power the wheels, but just charges the battery, so I
presume it runs at a constant RPM at the optimum power/torque setting to
minimise noise, petrol consumption and pollution.
You'd think, but if the generators on hybrid buses are anything to go by
it won't, the rpm will be up and down and all over the place. From my
(admittedly limited) experience of the hybrid buses running around they seem
to have the generator running most of the time except at stops and shortly
after which IMO seems little better than having a stop-start system but with
a lot more complexity.
I think the batteries on hybrid buses are relatively very much smaller than
this one, so they need very frequent recharging. They probably have a pure
electric range of well under a mile.
Depends on the size of battery, and how much it gets charged up
overnight. Boris buses have 75KWh batteries so should be good for
further than that.
"The only hybrid buses which I've observed that closely (in Nottingham
circa 2010)"
Boris buses are not charged overnight, the only bus garages that have charging
facilities are those with electric fleets.
Even if they were, the overnight charge wouldn't get them very far.
Mark
2018-01-30 00:50:28 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Mark
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 11:02:43 on Wed, 24 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Post by Recliner
Post by Someone Somewhere
Sounds like an incredibly weedy output for a turbo engine of that size.
Yes, it's pretty low. That's probably the setting that's cleanest and most
economical. It doesn't power the wheels, but just charges the battery, so I
presume it runs at a constant RPM at the optimum power/torque setting to
minimise noise, petrol consumption and pollution.
You'd think, but if the generators on hybrid buses are anything to go by
it won't, the rpm will be up and down and all over the place. From my
(admittedly limited) experience of the hybrid buses running around they seem
to have the generator running most of the time except at stops and shortly
after which IMO seems little better than having a stop-start system but with
a lot more complexity.
I think the batteries on hybrid buses are relatively very much smaller than
this one, so they need very frequent recharging. They probably have a pure
electric range of well under a mile.
Depends on the size of battery, and how much it gets charged up
overnight. Boris buses have 75KWh batteries so should be good for
further than that.
"The only hybrid buses which I've observed that closely (in Nottingham
circa 2010)"
Boris buses are not charged overnight, the only bus garages that have charging
facilities are those with electric fleets.
Even if they were, the overnight charge wouldn't get them very far.
Quite - the hybrid concept seems to have confused our resident expert on
everything.
Roland Perry
2018-01-24 10:22:05 UTC
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<674226608.538479326.923281.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 09:43:35 on Wed, 24 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by Recliner
This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the look of
the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite old-fashioned
('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the skin (unlike the
primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets, they should start to
clean up the dirty air in central London.
<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-bla
ck-cab-now-operational-capital>
It looks great.
I'm surprised that it needs a grille the same size as a diesel one. That
suggests that its motor might produce as much heat as a diesel engine.
I'm also wondering why the old one has such beefy hubcaps if the new one
can get by without them.
There's a 3-cylinder turbo 1.5l 81 hp Volvo range-extender engine under the
bonnet.
Which if fitted in a conventional car would have a grill a quarter the
size.
Post by Recliner
Plus the 33 kWh LG battery pack and 110 kW Siemens electric motor
will also need cooling.
33kWh into 110kw hardly sounds like a 70 mile range.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-24 10:44:44 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 09:43:35 on Wed, 24 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by Recliner
This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the look of
the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite old-fashioned
('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the skin (unlike the
primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets, they should start to
clean up the dirty air in central London.
<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-bla
ck-cab-now-operational-capital>
It looks great.
I'm surprised that it needs a grille the same size as a diesel one. That
suggests that its motor might produce as much heat as a diesel engine.
I'm also wondering why the old one has such beefy hubcaps if the new one
can get by without them.
There's a 3-cylinder turbo 1.5l 81 hp Volvo range-extender engine under the
bonnet.
Which if fitted in a conventional car would have a grill a quarter the
size.
Post by Recliner
Plus the 33 kWh LG battery pack and 110 kW Siemens electric motor
will also need cooling.
33kWh into 110kw hardly sounds like a 70 mile range.
Well, you're obviously going to have to help them sort it out, given that
you know so much more than Geely, Volvo and LEVC about the design and
construction of hybrid vehicles and taxis than they do.
Roland Perry
2018-01-24 11:11:23 UTC
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In message
<307647657.538483288.617350.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 10:44:44 on Wed, 24 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Plus the 33 kWh LG battery pack and 110 kW Siemens electric motor
will also need cooling.
33kWh into 110kw hardly sounds like a 70 mile range.
Well, you're obviously going to have to help them sort it out, given that
you know so much more than Geely, Volvo and LEVC about the design and
construction of hybrid vehicles and taxis than they do.
I can work out that the battery will last for 18 minutes at full power,
alternatively at say 10mph average in Central London traffic, an average
power drain of 4.5kW over seven hours, but requiring a motor 25 times as
powerful.

I'm not saying it *is* wrong, just that it *sounds* wrong.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-24 11:24:54 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 10:44:44 on Wed, 24 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Plus the 33 kWh LG battery pack and 110 kW Siemens electric motor
will also need cooling.
33kWh into 110kw hardly sounds like a 70 mile range.
Well, you're obviously going to have to help them sort it out, given that
you know so much more than Geely, Volvo and LEVC about the design and
construction of hybrid vehicles and taxis than they do.
I can work out that the battery will last for 18 minutes at full power,
alternatively at say 10mph average in Central London traffic, an average
power drain of 4.5kW over seven hours, but requiring a motor 25 times as
powerful.
I'm not saying it *is* wrong, just that it *sounds* wrong.
It will spend very little time at full power, and obviously has
regenerative braking, which is very effective in stop-start traffic. Much
of the time it will be stopped, with the motor (yes, I'm well aware that it
has other power sinks) not consuming any power.

Most ICE cars would also have an incredibly short range at full power (a
Bugatti Chiron's 100l fuel tank would last nine minutes). But, like the
taxi, they seldom use full power.
Robin
2018-01-24 11:33:01 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
33kWh into 110kw hardly sounds like a 70 mile range.
Well, you're obviously going to have to help them sort it out, given that
you know so much more than Geely, Volvo and LEVC about the design and
construction of hybrid vehicles and taxis than they do.
ISTM well covered in various reviews: the _maximum_ power of 110kW is to
give the acceleration cabbies want; 33kWh to keep weight down; 70 mile
range acceptable as it's a hybrid so no "range anxiety". The ratio of
range/battery capacity seems to me comparable to other EVs - eg 22 miles
for 8.8 kWh in a (presumably lighter) plug-in Prius.

One detail I've not seen is if the driver can manually select the petrol
engine to keep the battery charged when eg on a run to Stansted.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Recliner
2018-01-24 12:52:50 UTC
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Post by Robin
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
33kWh into 110kw hardly sounds like a 70 mile range.
Well, you're obviously going to have to help them sort it out, given that
you know so much more than Geely, Volvo and LEVC about the design and
construction of hybrid vehicles and taxis than they do.
ISTM well covered in various reviews: the _maximum_ power of 110kW is to
give the acceleration cabbies want; 33kWh to keep weight down; 70 mile
range acceptable as it's a hybrid so no "range anxiety". The ratio of
range/battery capacity seems to me comparable to other EVs - eg 22 miles
for 8.8 kWh in a (presumably lighter) plug-in Prius.
One detail I've not seen is if the driver can manually select the petrol
engine to keep the battery charged when eg on a run to Stansted.
It's a good question, and I think the answer is very likely to be Yes.
Other PHEVs have this ability, partly so they can ensure they have enough
remaining battery range when entering zero emissions zones. Many of these
taxis are likely to be used in such cities, so it would probably be a
mandatory feature. Some of the smarter cars can even do this automatically,
if the destination set in the satnav is in a zero emissions zone.

When used manually, drivers can force the range extender engine to be On or
Off.
Neil Williams
2018-01-24 13:50:38 UTC
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Post by Robin
One detail I've not seen is if the driver can manually select the petrol
engine to keep the battery charged when eg on a run to Stansted.
I've long thought there is a logic, in the medium term, to having
"plug in" series hybrid cars which run on pure electricity within
cities but run on a small turbocharged and supercharged petrol engine
(TSi) to power them and charge batteries when outside, where the
pollution at the point of use is fairly insignificant when compared to
fossil fuel generation.

This seems to be exactly that vehicle. One could argue that this
process should be automatic based on location.

Neil
Recliner
2018-01-24 14:01:16 UTC
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On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 13:50:38 +0000, Neil Williams
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Robin
One detail I've not seen is if the driver can manually select the petrol
engine to keep the battery charged when eg on a run to Stansted.
I've long thought there is a logic, in the medium term, to having
"plug in" series hybrid cars which run on pure electricity within
cities but run on a small turbocharged and supercharged petrol engine
(TSi) to power them and charge batteries when outside, where the
pollution at the point of use is fairly insignificant when compared to
fossil fuel generation.
This seems to be exactly that vehicle. One could argue that this
process should be automatic based on location.
Yes, that's the general idea with all the new generation PHEVs. To
comply with new Chinese rules they need at least a 50km zero emissions
range, but many of the larger cars are aiming for more. The TX has an
unusually long zero emissions range, presumably reflecting that it
will spend a lot of its working time in what may soon be zero
emissions zones.
b***@cylonHQ.com
2018-01-24 14:06:47 UTC
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Raw Message
On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 13:50:38 +0000
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Robin
One detail I've not seen is if the driver can manually select the petrol
engine to keep the battery charged when eg on a run to Stansted.
I've long thought there is a logic, in the medium term, to having
"plug in" series hybrid cars which run on pure electricity within
cities but run on a small turbocharged and supercharged petrol engine
(TSi) to power them and charge batteries when outside, where the
pollution at the point of use is fairly insignificant when compared to
fossil fuel generation.
Personally I'd go for a plug in car with city range that has a nice big
block hemi V8 for the motorway :)

And if you think thats a pipe dream:

https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/porsche/40-v8-turbo-s-e-hybrid-5dr-pdk/first
-drive-0
Recliner
2018-01-25 10:29:54 UTC
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Post by Robin
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
33kWh into 110kw hardly sounds like a 70 mile range.
Well, you're obviously going to have to help them sort it out, given that
you know so much more than Geely, Volvo and LEVC about the design and
construction of hybrid vehicles and taxis than they do.
ISTM well covered in various reviews: the _maximum_ power of 110kW is to
give the acceleration cabbies want; 33kWh to keep weight down; 70 mile
range acceptable as it's a hybrid so no "range anxiety". The ratio of
range/battery capacity seems to me comparable to other EVs - eg 22 miles
for 8.8 kWh in a (presumably lighter) plug-in Prius.
One detail I've not seen is if the driver can manually select the petrol
engine to keep the battery charged when eg on a run to Stansted.
Confirmed: it dors have such a mode, just as other PHEVs do.
<http://www.levc.com/technology/ecity-technology/>

It has Smart, Save and Pure EV modes. Save is used to conserve battery
energy by keeping the petrol engine running.
Robin
2018-01-25 15:32:58 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Recliner
Post by Robin
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
33kWh into 110kw hardly sounds like a 70 mile range.
Well, you're obviously going to have to help them sort it out, given that
you know so much more than Geely, Volvo and LEVC about the design and
construction of hybrid vehicles and taxis than they do.
ISTM well covered in various reviews: the _maximum_ power of 110kW is to
give the acceleration cabbies want; 33kWh to keep weight down; 70 mile
range acceptable as it's a hybrid so no "range anxiety". The ratio of
range/battery capacity seems to me comparable to other EVs - eg 22 miles
for 8.8 kWh in a (presumably lighter) plug-in Prius.
One detail I've not seen is if the driver can manually select the petrol
engine to keep the battery charged when eg on a run to Stansted.
Confirmed: it dors have such a mode, just as other PHEVs do.
<http://www.levc.com/technology/ecity-technology/>
It has Smart, Save and Pure EV modes. Save is used to conserve battery
energy by keeping the petrol engine running.
Thanks, I'd (manifestly) missed that.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Tim Woodall
2018-01-24 11:52:10 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Plus the 33 kWh LG battery pack and 110 kW Siemens electric motor
will also need cooling.
33kWh into 110kw hardly sounds like a 70 mile range.
110kW gives the maximum acceleration. Find a steep enough and long
enough hill and drive up it flat out and the battery will only last
around 20 minutes.

I think it's the equivalent of around 3 gallons of fuel but as the
battery to wheel efficiency will be better than tank to wheel, probably
more like 5 gallon fuel tank equivalent. 70 miles sounds pretty poor -
maybe realistic taxi driving with lots of start-stop motoring.
Theo
2018-01-27 23:29:11 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 09:43:35 on Wed, 24 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Plus the 33 kWh LG battery pack and 110 kW Siemens electric motor
will also need cooling.
33kWh into 110kw hardly sounds like a 70 mile range.
It does actually. Ballpark for an EV is 400Wh per mile. At that rate,
33kWh is 82 miles. Obviously range varies a bit between vehicles (drag,
efficiency, weight, etc) but it sounds about right.

Theo
Recliner
2018-01-27 23:49:02 UTC
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Post by Theo
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 09:43:35 on Wed, 24 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Plus the 33 kWh LG battery pack and 110 kW Siemens electric motor
will also need cooling.
33kWh into 110kw hardly sounds like a 70 mile range.
It does actually. Ballpark for an EV is 400Wh per mile. At that rate,
33kWh is 82 miles. Obviously range varies a bit between vehicles (drag,
efficiency, weight, etc) but it sounds about right.
It's quite a big, boxy vehicle (driver+6 passengers). And perhaps they're
allowing for a realistic inner city taxi driving style?
Theo
2018-01-28 20:18:24 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Theo
Post by Roland Perry
33kWh into 110kw hardly sounds like a 70 mile range.
It does actually. Ballpark for an EV is 400Wh per mile. At that rate,
33kWh is 82 miles. Obviously range varies a bit between vehicles (drag,
efficiency, weight, etc) but it sounds about right.
It's quite a big, boxy vehicle (driver+6 passengers). And perhaps they're
allowing for a realistic inner city taxi driving style?
Indeed. Plus it's prudent not to run the battery completely flat, so the
usable capacity can be less than the nameplate capacity.

110kWh is on the low side, by the way:

Tesla Model S P85D: 345kW
Tesla Model X 90D: 193kW front and rear
Chevrolet Volt gen1 PHEV: 111kW
Chevrolet Bolt: 150kW
Hyundai Ioniq: 88kW
Nissan Leaf: 80kW

- of course the taxi is quite a bit larger than a Leaf, and Teslas are
overspecced due to their market positioning ('Ludicrous mode' etc). I
suspect the taxi won't be terribly sprightly on the motorway, but that's not
the point.

The reason is that driving is not an even load: you need a lot of power for
accelerating, and then once you're up to speed you just have to counter air
and rolling resistance. It's just the same way that your in-car MPG meter
might read 8 mpg while you're accelerating up the slip onto the motorway,
and then do 60mpg when you're cruising.

On an electric car it's better than that, because the braking is (mostly)
regenerative, so you capture a big chunk of that kinetic energy back into
the battery.

Theo
Recliner
2018-01-28 21:38:13 UTC
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Post by Theo
Post by Recliner
Post by Theo
Post by Roland Perry
33kWh into 110kw hardly sounds like a 70 mile range.
It does actually. Ballpark for an EV is 400Wh per mile. At that rate,
33kWh is 82 miles. Obviously range varies a bit between vehicles (drag,
efficiency, weight, etc) but it sounds about right.
It's quite a big, boxy vehicle (driver+6 passengers). And perhaps they're
allowing for a realistic inner city taxi driving style?
Indeed. Plus it's prudent not to run the battery completely flat, so the
usable capacity can be less than the nameplate capacity.
Is completely depleting the battery also not bad for it?
Yes, just about adequate, but far from excessive.
Post by Theo
Tesla Model S P85D: 345kW
Tesla Model X 90D: 193kW front and rear
Chevrolet Volt gen1 PHEV: 111kW
Chevrolet Bolt: 150kW
Hyundai Ioniq: 88kW
Nissan Leaf: 80kW
- of course the taxi is quite a bit larger than a Leaf, and Teslas are
overspecced due to their market positioning ('Ludicrous mode' etc). I
suspect the taxi won't be terribly sprightly on the motorway, but that's not
the point.
Yes, performance is far from sporty:
0-62 mph acceleration: 13.2 sec (but the more relevant 0-30 mph is probably
much more respectable)

Max speed: 80 mph (just enough for motorway cruising, but I bet it canes
the battery life!)

So, it's very much optimised for use as an inner city taxi, not an
intercity cruiser.
Post by Theo
The reason is that driving is not an even load: you need a lot of power for
accelerating, and then once you're up to speed you just have to counter air
and rolling resistance. It's just the same way that your in-car MPG meter
might read 8 mpg while you're accelerating up the slip onto the motorway,
and then do 60mpg when you're cruising.
On an electric car it's better than that, because the braking is (mostly)
regenerative, so you capture a big chunk of that kinetic energy back into
the battery.
Yes, regen braking is most useful in stop-start urban traffic.
Roland Perry
2018-01-29 10:25:33 UTC
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In message
<932614999.538867601.560146.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 21:38:13 on Sun, 28 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Theo
it's prudent not to run the battery completely flat, so the
usable capacity can be less than the nameplate capacity.
Is completely depleting the battery also not bad for it?
A good question to ask people like this is: "the headline battery size,
is that the gross capacity, or the net capacity between the max and min
charges which the electronics allow?"

For example, my laptop has an eco-mode which cycles between 80% and 5%,
so that's only 75% of the gross capacity.

It's all a bit like "Music power" on 1980's hifi!
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-29 10:51:39 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 21:38:13 on Sun, 28 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Theo
it's prudent not to run the battery completely flat, so the
usable capacity can be less than the nameplate capacity.
Is completely depleting the battery also not bad for it?
A good question to ask people like this is: "the headline battery size,
is that the gross capacity, or the net capacity between the max and min
charges which the electronics allow?"
For example, my laptop has an eco-mode which cycles between 80% and 5%,
so that's only 75% of the gross capacity.
It's all a bit like "Music power" on 1980's hifi!
Yes, indeed.

I think with most EVs and BEVs, they similarly quote the gross capacity.
That's one of the reasons that the practical, real-world range is always
assumed to be significantly less than the claimed figure. Of course, the
claimed mpg figures for ICE vehicles are also seldom achievable. In both
cases, they probably assume that the aircon is off, the windows are shut,
maybe even the exterior mirrors folded, the vehicle is carrying the minimum
load, the tyres are at max allowed pressure, etc.

It's just that the consequences of running out of battery power are much
worse than running low on petrol.
Roland Perry
2018-01-29 11:11:47 UTC
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In message
<33135324.538915454.715334.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septem
ber.org>, at 10:51:39 on Mon, 29 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 21:38:13 on Sun, 28 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Theo
it's prudent not to run the battery completely flat, so the
usable capacity can be less than the nameplate capacity.
Is completely depleting the battery also not bad for it?
A good question to ask people like this is: "the headline battery size,
is that the gross capacity, or the net capacity between the max and min
charges which the electronics allow?"
For example, my laptop has an eco-mode which cycles between 80% and 5%,
so that's only 75% of the gross capacity.
It's all a bit like "Music power" on 1980's hifi!
Yes, indeed.
I think with most EVs and BEVs, they similarly quote the gross capacity.
That's one of the reasons that the practical, real-world range is always
assumed to be significantly less than the claimed figure. Of course, the
claimed mpg figures for ICE vehicles are also seldom achievable. In both
cases, they probably assume that the aircon is off, the windows are shut,
maybe even the exterior mirrors folded, the vehicle is carrying the minimum
load, the tyres are at max allowed pressure, etc.
I've never had that sort of problem. Driving in regular configuration,
it would appear that the lack of a leaden right foot means I usually
clock up at least the headline figure. Reliably get in the low-mid 50's
for my diesel Merc rated at 47mpg.
Post by Recliner
It's just that the consequences of running out of battery power are much
worse than running low on petrol.
I wonder if there's a market for briefcase-sized booster batteries, as
an equivalent for the 5l can in the boot?
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-29 11:21:39 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
ber.org>, at 10:51:39 on Mon, 29 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 21:38:13 on Sun, 28 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Theo
it's prudent not to run the battery completely flat, so the
usable capacity can be less than the nameplate capacity.
Is completely depleting the battery also not bad for it?
A good question to ask people like this is: "the headline battery size,
is that the gross capacity, or the net capacity between the max and min
charges which the electronics allow?"
For example, my laptop has an eco-mode which cycles between 80% and 5%,
so that's only 75% of the gross capacity.
It's all a bit like "Music power" on 1980's hifi!
Yes, indeed.
I think with most EVs and BEVs, they similarly quote the gross capacity.
That's one of the reasons that the practical, real-world range is always
assumed to be significantly less than the claimed figure. Of course, the
claimed mpg figures for ICE vehicles are also seldom achievable. In both
cases, they probably assume that the aircon is off, the windows are shut,
maybe even the exterior mirrors folded, the vehicle is carrying the minimum
load, the tyres are at max allowed pressure, etc.
I've never had that sort of problem. Driving in regular configuration,
it would appear that the lack of a leaden right foot means I usually
clock up at least the headline figure. Reliably get in the low-mid 50's
for my diesel Merc rated at 47mpg.
Maybe living in a rural area helps? Do you usually keep the aircon off?
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
It's just that the consequences of running out of battery power are much
worse than running low on petrol.
I wonder if there's a market for briefcase-sized booster batteries, as
an equivalent for the 5l can in the boot?
There probably would be, but to be useful, it might have to be
suitcase-sized and weigh 40kg.
Roland Perry
2018-01-28 08:12:25 UTC
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Post by Theo
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Plus the 33 kWh LG battery pack and 110 kW Siemens electric motor
will also need cooling.
33kWh into 110kw hardly sounds like a 70 mile range.
It does actually. Ballpark for an EV is 400Wh per mile. At that rate,
33kWh is 82 miles. Obviously range varies a bit between vehicles (drag,
efficiency, weight, etc) but it sounds about right.
I'll re-phrase my remark (which has turned out to be surprisingly
controversial).

"110 kW seems like an awful big engine for a vehicle whose average
consumption is around 4kW".

And something that's been lost in later snippage:

"I'm not saying it *is* wrong, just that it *sounds* wrong."
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2018-01-24 16:54:00 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by Recliner
This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the
look of the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite
old-fashioned ('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the
skin (unlike the primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets,
they should start to clean up the dirty air in central London.
<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-black-cab-n
ow-operational-capital>
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
It looks great.
I'm surprised that it needs a grille the same size as a diesel one.
That suggests that its motor might produce as much heat as a diesel
engine.
I'm also wondering why the old one has such beefy hubcaps if the new
one can get by without them.
There's presumably a conventional radiator for the 1.3l petrol engine.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Recliner
2018-01-24 17:39:40 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
Post by Recliner
This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the
look of the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite
old-fashioned ('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the
skin (unlike the primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets,
they should start to clean up the dirty air in central London.
<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-black-cab-n
ow-operational-capital>
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Offramp
It looks great.
I'm surprised that it needs a grille the same size as a diesel one.
That suggests that its motor might produce as much heat as a diesel
engine.
I'm also wondering why the old one has such beefy hubcaps if the new
one can get by without them.
There's presumably a conventional radiator for the 1.3l petrol engine.
1.5l (1477cc) actually, plus the batteries, charger, aircon, etc, all of
which need cooling. Ths vehicle isn't just for London: it's got to be able
to run in congested traffic in much hotter places around the world. For
example, it was tested in the Arizona desert.
b***@cylonHQ.com
2018-01-24 09:44:54 UTC
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On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 17:33:41 -0800 (PST)
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the look of
the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite old-fashioned
('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the skin (unlike the
primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets, they should start to
clean up the dirty air in central London.
<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-black-cab-now
operational-capital>
It looks great.
It would be hard for it to look any worse than the current Noddy and Big Ears
car design. Though to me it still looks like it was designed by an
undergraduate when you compare it with all the other MPVs on the market which
is essentially all it is with taxi specific bits and pieces added on.
tim...
2018-01-24 13:29:22 UTC
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Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 17:33:41 -0800 (PST)
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the look of
the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite old-fashioned
('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the skin (unlike the
primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets, they should start to
clean up the dirty air in central London.
<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-black-cab-now
operational-capital>
It looks great.
It would be hard for it to look any worse than the current Noddy and Big Ears
car design. Though to me it still looks like it was designed by an
undergraduate when you compare it with all the other MPVs on the market which
is essentially all it is with taxi specific bits and pieces added on.
ISTM that its deliberately designed to look as much like a historic London
cab as possible

whether you need skilled designers to do that, I couldn't possibly comment

tim
Recliner
2018-01-24 13:56:56 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 17:33:41 -0800 (PST)
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the look of
the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite old-fashioned
('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the skin (unlike the
primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets, they should start to
clean up the dirty air in central London.
<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-black-cab-now
operational-capital>
It looks great.
It would be hard for it to look any worse than the current Noddy and Big Ears
car design. Though to me it still looks like it was designed by an
undergraduate when you compare it with all the other MPVs on the market which
is essentially all it is with taxi specific bits and pieces added on.
ISTM that its deliberately designed to look as much like a historic London
cab as possible
whether you need skilled designers to do that, I couldn't possibly comment
Well, they certainly had skilled, well-respected designers on the
project. Peter Horbury (one of the world's top car designers), who was
in overall charge, said:

"The starting point was to meet the requirements of such a vehicle -
the turning circle, the powertrain, the driver's space and then
carrying capacity. In truth, what we were then left with was a square
box. To get the shape, we then required to meet our aesthetic goals,
which was always going to be a challenge, but we pulled and pushed the
engineers and gradually we were able to create a car that is a modern
interpretation of what has gone before. My take on retro design is
that you shouldn't repeat what has gone before but you can offer up
nods that remind people of it. That's what we've done.

"You also have to remember that this is a vehicle that will typically
have a 15 to 20-year life. It doesn't get replaced after seven years
like a conventional car, so we had to avoid creating something that
would age quickly. If you look at some of the extreme car designs
today, ones that grab and shock you, they don't tend to age well. We
wanted a look that will stand the test of time and, if that has meant
toning it down at times, then that's what we've done. This car must
look relevant 20 years down the line."

_____

But, judging by this thread, Boltar is sure he could have done a
better job on the design, and Roland has told us he could have
engineered it better. Geely obviously missed a trick by failing to use
these highly talented people -- perhaps they were too expensive? They
could have completed the project in a week, rather than taking several
years.
b***@cylonHQ.com
2018-01-24 14:15:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 13:56:56 +0000
Post by Recliner
Well, they certainly had skilled, well-respected designers on the
project. Peter Horbury (one of the world's top car designers), who was
Means nothing. Good Murray designed the beautiful mclaren F1. However he also
designed a few dogs.
Post by Recliner
"The starting point was to meet the requirements of such a vehicle -
the turning circle, the powertrain, the driver's space and then
carrying capacity. In truth, what we were then left with was a square
box. To get the shape, we then required to meet our aesthetic goals,
So what. A transit is a box but it still looks better than this thing.
Post by Recliner
"You also have to remember that this is a vehicle that will typically
have a 15 to 20-year life. It doesn't get replaced after seven years
like a conventional car, so we had to avoid creating something that
would age quickly. If you look at some of the extreme car designs
So design something that looks old from the start then it'll never age.
There's a certain logic in that I suppose.
Post by Recliner
toning it down at times, then that's what we've done. This car must
look relevant 20 years down the line."
It barely looks "relevant" now.
Post by Recliner
But, judging by this thread, Boltar is sure he could have done a
better job on the design, and Roland has told us he could have
Yup. Stevie Wonder could have done better frankly.
Recliner
2018-01-24 14:26:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 13:56:56 +0000
Post by Recliner
Well, they certainly had skilled, well-respected designers on the
project. Peter Horbury (one of the world's top car designers), who was
Means nothing. Good Murray designed the beautiful mclaren F1. However he also
designed a few dogs.
Post by Recliner
"The starting point was to meet the requirements of such a vehicle -
the turning circle, the powertrain, the driver's space and then
carrying capacity. In truth, what we were then left with was a square
box. To get the shape, we then required to meet our aesthetic goals,
So what. A transit is a box but it still looks better than this thing.
Post by Recliner
"You also have to remember that this is a vehicle that will typically
have a 15 to 20-year life. It doesn't get replaced after seven years
like a conventional car, so we had to avoid creating something that
would age quickly. If you look at some of the extreme car designs
So design something that looks old from the start then it'll never age.
There's a certain logic in that I suppose.
Post by Recliner
toning it down at times, then that's what we've done. This car must
look relevant 20 years down the line."
It barely looks "relevant" now.
Post by Recliner
But, judging by this thread, Boltar is sure he could have done a
better job on the design, and Roland has told us he could have
Yup. Stevie Wonder could have done better frankly.
Well, obviously you asked too much for the job. Perhaps you can list
some of the beautiful vehicles you've designed?
b***@cylonHQ.com
2018-01-24 14:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 14:26:37 +0000
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
Yup. Stevie Wonder could have done better frankly.
Well, obviously you asked too much for the job. Perhaps you can list
some of the beautiful vehicles you've designed?
I don't have to be a composer to recognise rubbish music or be an artist to
know that the tate modern is mostly full of crap. Creation and appreciation are
not mutually inclusive.
Neil Williams
2018-01-24 14:35:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
So design something that looks old from the start then it'll never age.
There's a certain logic in that I suppose.
The housing market tells you all you need to know about that... people
flock to buy "old looking" new houses, while the "super modern" ones
are less popular and tend to look really dated and rubbish within 10
years.

Neil
Recliner
2018-01-24 15:00:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 14:35:28 +0000, Neil Williams
Post by Neil Williams
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
So design something that looks old from the start then it'll never age.
There's a certain logic in that I suppose.
The housing market tells you all you need to know about that... people
flock to buy "old looking" new houses, while the "super modern" ones
are less popular and tend to look really dated and rubbish within 10
years.
Very true.
b***@cylonHQ.com
2018-01-24 15:01:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 14:35:28 +0000
Post by Neil Williams
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
So design something that looks old from the start then it'll never age.
There's a certain logic in that I suppose.
The housing market tells you all you need to know about that... people
flock to buy "old looking" new houses, while the "super modern" ones
are less popular and tend to look really dated and rubbish within 10
years.
Yeah, but thats partly down to size and build quality too. Most modern cars
and no doubt this taxi have good build quality, but pastiche only works so
far. Jaguar found that out with its models back in the 00s - at some point
people just think it looks too dated.
Recliner
2018-01-24 15:22:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Recliner
On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 14:35:28 +0000
Post by Neil Williams
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
So design something that looks old from the start then it'll never age.
There's a certain logic in that I suppose.
The housing market tells you all you need to know about that... people
flock to buy "old looking" new houses, while the "super modern" ones
are less popular and tend to look really dated and rubbish within 10
years.
Yeah, but thats partly down to size and build quality too. Most modern cars
and no doubt this taxi have good build quality, but pastiche only works so
far. Jaguar found that out with its models back in the 00s - at some point
people just think it looks too dated.
Yes, retro cars didn't work for long with Jaguar. They seem to have
worked better for Porsche, Fiat and MINI. Range Rovers also keep
styling links with their predecessors.
Basil Jet
2018-01-24 16:29:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Recliner
On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 14:35:28 +0000
Post by Neil Williams
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
So design something that looks old from the start then it'll never age.
There's a certain logic in that I suppose.
The housing market tells you all you need to know about that... people
flock to buy "old looking" new houses, while the "super modern" ones
are less popular and tend to look really dated and rubbish within 10
years.
Yeah, but thats partly down to size and build quality too. Most modern cars
and no doubt this taxi have good build quality, but pastiche only works so
far. Jaguar found that out with its models back in the 00s - at some point
people just think it looks too dated.
I think London taxi drivers are not allowed to register new diesel
vehicles any more, and this is the only electric one available, so they
have little choice, and will have no choice as old ones progressively
get written off or retired.
Neil Williams
2018-01-25 09:37:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Basil Jet
I think London taxi drivers are not allowed to register new diesel
vehicles any more, and this is the only electric one available, so they
have little choice, and will have no choice as old ones progressively
get written off or retired.
I would be very surprised if there was not an equivalent Mercedes Vito
Taxi before long.

Neil
Roland Perry
2018-01-25 09:56:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Basil Jet
I think London taxi drivers are not allowed to register new diesel
vehicles any more, and this is the only electric one available, so they
have little choice, and will have no choice as old ones progressively
get written off or retired.
I would be very surprised if there was not an equivalent Mercedes Vito
Taxi before long.
Mechanical platform already done:


--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2018-01-25 10:00:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Basil Jet
I think London taxi drivers are not allowed to register new diesel
vehicles any more, and this is the only electric one available, so they
have little choice, and will have no choice as old ones progressively
get written off or retired.
I would be very surprised if there was not an equivalent Mercedes Vito
Taxi before long.
http://youtu.be/P6lMt2E0lyg
Or if all-electric is OK:

<https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1043849_new-london-taxi-steers-
from-the-rear-now-going-electric-too>
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-25 10:22:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Basil Jet
I think London taxi drivers are not allowed to register new diesel
vehicles any more, and this is the only electric one available, so they
have little choice, and will have no choice as old ones progressively
get written off or retired.
I would be very surprised if there was not an equivalent Mercedes Vito
Taxi before long.
http://youtu.be/P6lMt2E0lyg
<https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1043849_new-london-taxi-steers-
from-the-rear-now-going-electric-too>
That story about a prototype was from 2010. I wonder if they ever followed
it up with a production vehicle? I'd have thought the range was much too
low for a BEV taxi without a range extender, but if course it might be
better with today's batteries.

The advantage of the LEVC TX is that it's an all-new design, optimised for
and designed around its PHEV drivetrain. So it has a lightweight alloy and
composite body to compensate for the heavy batteries, and places the
batteries under the floor, rather than taking up luggage space like that
Mercedes:
<http://www.levc.com/technology/battery-technology/>
Roland Perry
2018-01-25 11:18:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In message
<282431925.538567981.643067.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 10:22:47 on Thu, 25 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Basil Jet
I think London taxi drivers are not allowed to register new diesel
vehicles any more, and this is the only electric one available, so they
have little choice, and will have no choice as old ones progressively
get written off or retired.
I would be very surprised if there was not an equivalent Mercedes Vito
Taxi before long.
http://youtu.be/P6lMt2E0lyg
<https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1043849_new-london-taxi-steers-
from-the-rear-now-going-electric-too>
That story about a prototype was from 2010. I wonder if they ever followed
it up with a production vehicle? I'd have thought the range was much too
low for a BEV taxi without a range extender, but if course it might be
better with today's batteries.
The thing is, whether they built one or a hundred, it was designed and
approved for the London cab market. If, as an all-electric, it flopped
(?) it shouldn't be hard to get the same approval for a London version
of the Vito hybrid in the video.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-25 11:38:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 10:22:47 on Thu, 25 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Basil Jet
I think London taxi drivers are not allowed to register new diesel
vehicles any more, and this is the only electric one available, so they
have little choice, and will have no choice as old ones progressively
get written off or retired.
I would be very surprised if there was not an equivalent Mercedes Vito
Taxi before long.
http://youtu.be/P6lMt2E0lyg
<https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1043849_new-london-taxi-steers-
from-the-rear-now-going-electric-too>
That story about a prototype was from 2010. I wonder if they ever followed
it up with a production vehicle? I'd have thought the range was much too
low for a BEV taxi without a range extender, but if course it might be
better with today's batteries.
The thing is, whether they built one or a hundred, it was designed and
approved for the London cab market. If, as an all-electric, it flopped
(?) it shouldn't be hard to get the same approval for a London version
of the Vito hybrid in the video.
Yes, I'm sure Mercedes will want to remain in and competitive in the London
taxi market, but it might need an all-new vehicle to compete with the new
TX. Simply installing a hybrid drive train in the old steel van will
produce a very heavy vehicle, with a short battery range, lost luggage
space, and excessive petrol consumption. Mercedes is certainly capable of
building something competitive, but will have to start from scratch to do
so.
Roland Perry
2018-01-25 11:52:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In message
<332812527.538572683.751406.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 11:38:43 on Thu, 25 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Neil Williams
I would be very surprised if there was not an equivalent Mercedes Vito
Taxi before long.
http://youtu.be/P6lMt2E0lyg
<https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1043849_new-london-taxi-steers-
from-the-rear-now-going-electric-too>
That story about a prototype was from 2010. I wonder if they ever followed
it up with a production vehicle? I'd have thought the range was much too
low for a BEV taxi without a range extender, but if course it might be
better with today's batteries.
The thing is, whether they built one or a hundred, it was designed and
approved for the London cab market. If, as an all-electric, it flopped
(?) it shouldn't be hard to get the same approval for a London version
of the Vito hybrid in the video.
Yes, I'm sure Mercedes will want to remain in and competitive in the London
taxi market, but it might need an all-new vehicle to compete with the new
TX. Simply installing a hybrid drive train in the old steel van will
produce a very heavy vehicle, with a short battery range, lost luggage
space, and excessive petrol consumption. Mercedes is certainly capable of
building something competitive, but will have to start from scratch to do
so.
You don't think the car in the video has the potential to be that
vehicle?
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-25 12:08:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 11:38:43 on Thu, 25 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Neil Williams
I would be very surprised if there was not an equivalent Mercedes Vito
Taxi before long.
http://youtu.be/P6lMt2E0lyg
<https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1043849_new-london-taxi-steers-
from-the-rear-now-going-electric-too>
That story about a prototype was from 2010. I wonder if they ever followed
it up with a production vehicle? I'd have thought the range was much too
low for a BEV taxi without a range extender, but if course it might be
better with today's batteries.
The thing is, whether they built one or a hundred, it was designed and
approved for the London cab market. If, as an all-electric, it flopped
(?) it shouldn't be hard to get the same approval for a London version
of the Vito hybrid in the video.
Yes, I'm sure Mercedes will want to remain in and competitive in the London
taxi market, but it might need an all-new vehicle to compete with the new
TX. Simply installing a hybrid drive train in the old steel van will
produce a very heavy vehicle, with a short battery range, lost luggage
space, and excessive petrol consumption. Mercedes is certainly capable of
building something competitive, but will have to start from scratch to do
so.
You don't think the car in the video has the potential to be that
vehicle?
Definitely not, for the reasons I stated above.
Roland Perry
2018-01-25 14:41:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In message
<1434342542.538574852.036290.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-sept
ember.org>, at 12:08:56 on Thu, 25 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
http://youtu.be/P6lMt2E0lyg
<https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1043849_new-london-taxi-steers-
from-the-rear-now-going-electric-too>
That story about a prototype was from 2010. I wonder if they ever followed
it up with a production vehicle? I'd have thought the range was much too
low for a BEV taxi without a range extender, but if course it might be
better with today's batteries.
The thing is, whether they built one or a hundred, it was designed and
approved for the London cab market. If, as an all-electric, it flopped
(?) it shouldn't be hard to get the same approval for a London version
of the Vito hybrid in the video.
Yes, I'm sure Mercedes will want to remain in and competitive in the London
taxi market, but it might need an all-new vehicle to compete with the new
TX. Simply installing a hybrid drive train in the old steel van will
produce a very heavy vehicle, with a short battery range, lost luggage
space, and excessive petrol consumption. Mercedes is certainly capable of
building something competitive, but will have to start from scratch to do
so.
You don't think the car in the video has the potential to be that
vehicle?
Definitely not, for the reasons I stated above.
I promise not to tell Mercedes you know more about car design than their
experts.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-25 14:54:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 12:08:56 on Thu, 25 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
http://youtu.be/P6lMt2E0lyg
<https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1043849_new-london-taxi-steers-
from-the-rear-now-going-electric-too>
That story about a prototype was from 2010. I wonder if they ever followed
it up with a production vehicle? I'd have thought the range was much too
low for a BEV taxi without a range extender, but if course it might be
better with today's batteries.
The thing is, whether they built one or a hundred, it was designed and
approved for the London cab market. If, as an all-electric, it flopped
(?) it shouldn't be hard to get the same approval for a London version
of the Vito hybrid in the video.
Yes, I'm sure Mercedes will want to remain in and competitive in the London
taxi market, but it might need an all-new vehicle to compete with the new
TX. Simply installing a hybrid drive train in the old steel van will
produce a very heavy vehicle, with a short battery range, lost luggage
space, and excessive petrol consumption. Mercedes is certainly capable of
building something competitive, but will have to start from scratch to do
so.
You don't think the car in the video has the potential to be that
vehicle?
Definitely not, for the reasons I stated above.
I promise not to tell Mercedes you know more about car design than their
experts.
Mercedes isn't promoting it as an electric/hybrid taxi. That would be you.
And I certainly know more about car design than you do.

I don't doubt that Mercedes is capable of producing a viable PHEV taxi for
London, but this wouldn't be the starting point.
Roland Perry
2018-01-25 15:29:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In message
<1491165819.538584670.082462.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-sept
ember.org>, at 14:54:40 on Thu, 25 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
http://youtu.be/P6lMt2E0lyg
<https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1043849_new-london-taxi-steers-
from-the-rear-now-going-electric-too>
That story about a prototype was from 2010. I wonder if they ever followed
it up with a production vehicle? I'd have thought the range was much too
low for a BEV taxi without a range extender, but if course it might be
better with today's batteries.
The thing is, whether they built one or a hundred, it was designed and
approved for the London cab market. If, as an all-electric, it flopped
(?) it shouldn't be hard to get the same approval for a London version
of the Vito hybrid in the video.
Yes, I'm sure Mercedes will want to remain in and competitive in the London
taxi market, but it might need an all-new vehicle to compete with the new
TX. Simply installing a hybrid drive train in the old steel van will
produce a very heavy vehicle, with a short battery range, lost luggage
space, and excessive petrol consumption. Mercedes is certainly capable of
building something competitive, but will have to start from scratch to do
so.
You don't think the car in the video has the potential to be that
vehicle?
Definitely not, for the reasons I stated above.
I promise not to tell Mercedes you know more about car design than their
experts.
Mercedes isn't promoting it as an electric/hybrid taxi.
Indeed, only a hybrid vehicle (electric was several years ago). With
potential. Next time, read the question before answering.
Post by Recliner
That would be you.
And I certainly know more about car design than you do.
Style or mechanicals? And why...

[When I was a computer designer I got fed up with people asking "why
that off-cream colour?", when that was one of the few things I hadn't
been asked to contribute to. If I had, I might even have said "because
everyone else does, and it's the equivalent of the model-T Ford's
black".]
Post by Recliner
I don't doubt that Mercedes is capable of producing a viable PHEV taxi for
London, but this wouldn't be the starting point.
The starting point according to the video is a C350 PHEV, and this is
what emerges when you want a bigger bodyshell, that happens also to be
VTEC taxi-sized.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-25 16:06:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 14:54:40 on Thu, 25 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
http://youtu.be/P6lMt2E0lyg
<https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1043849_new-london-taxi-steers-
from-the-rear-now-going-electric-too>
That story about a prototype was from 2010. I wonder if they ever followed
it up with a production vehicle? I'd have thought the range was much too
low for a BEV taxi without a range extender, but if course it might be
better with today's batteries.
The thing is, whether they built one or a hundred, it was designed and
approved for the London cab market. If, as an all-electric, it flopped
(?) it shouldn't be hard to get the same approval for a London version
of the Vito hybrid in the video.
Yes, I'm sure Mercedes will want to remain in and competitive in the London
taxi market, but it might need an all-new vehicle to compete with the new
TX. Simply installing a hybrid drive train in the old steel van will
produce a very heavy vehicle, with a short battery range, lost luggage
space, and excessive petrol consumption. Mercedes is certainly capable of
building something competitive, but will have to start from scratch to do
so.
You don't think the car in the video has the potential to be that
vehicle?
Definitely not, for the reasons I stated above.
I promise not to tell Mercedes you know more about car design than their
experts.
Mercedes isn't promoting it as an electric/hybrid taxi.
Indeed, only a hybrid vehicle (electric was several years ago). With
potential. Next time, read the question before answering.
Not potential to be a London black cab with low emissions capabilities.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
That would be you.
And I certainly know more about car design than you do.
Style or mechanicals? And why...
[When I was a computer designer I got fed up with people asking "why
that off-cream colour?", when that was one of the few things I hadn't
been asked to contribute to. If I had, I might even have said "because
everyone else does, and it's the equivalent of the model-T Ford's
black".]
Post by Recliner
I don't doubt that Mercedes is capable of producing a viable PHEV taxi for
London, but this wouldn't be the starting point.
The starting point according to the video is a C350 PHEV, and this is
what emerges when you want a bigger bodyshell, that happens also to be
VTEC taxi-sized.
Did you miss the part about needing a lightweight body with room under the
floor for the bulky, heavy batteries? You can't get away with just rushing
out a bodge job like that, when a proper, custom-designed alternative is
already on the streets.
Roland Perry
2018-01-25 16:33:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In message
<889759443.538588906.263163.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 16:06:49 on Thu, 25 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 14:54:40 on Thu, 25 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
http://youtu.be/P6lMt2E0lyg
<https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1043849_new-london-taxi-steers-
from-the-rear-now-going-electric-too>
That story about a prototype was from 2010. I wonder if they ever followed
it up with a production vehicle? I'd have thought the range was much too
low for a BEV taxi without a range extender, but if course it might be
better with today's batteries.
The thing is, whether they built one or a hundred, it was designed and
approved for the London cab market. If, as an all-electric, it flopped
(?) it shouldn't be hard to get the same approval for a London version
of the Vito hybrid in the video.
Yes, I'm sure Mercedes will want to remain in and competitive in the London
taxi market, but it might need an all-new vehicle to compete with the new
TX. Simply installing a hybrid drive train in the old steel van will
produce a very heavy vehicle, with a short battery range, lost luggage
space, and excessive petrol consumption. Mercedes is certainly capable of
building something competitive, but will have to start from scratch to do
so.
You don't think the car in the video has the potential to be that
vehicle?
Definitely not, for the reasons I stated above.
I promise not to tell Mercedes you know more about car design than their
experts.
Mercedes isn't promoting it as an electric/hybrid taxi.
Indeed, only a hybrid vehicle (electric was several years ago). With
potential. Next time, read the question before answering.
Not potential to be a London black cab with low emissions capabilities.
The spec given in the video (50km electric-only range, 90kW electric
motor, configured as an airport shuttle) is not far off. Might need a
slightly bigger battery, and replacing the diesel with a petrol engine,
but there's plenty of room.

[In case you hadn't noticed, the bit in the video about room in the
back, is for making a 7-seater].
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
That would be you.
And I certainly know more about car design than you do.
Style or mechanicals? And why...
Hello!?!
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
[When I was a computer designer I got fed up with people asking "why
that off-cream colour?", when that was one of the few things I hadn't
been asked to contribute to. If I had, I might even have said "because
everyone else does, and it's the equivalent of the model-T Ford's
black".]
Post by Recliner
I don't doubt that Mercedes is capable of producing a viable PHEV taxi for
London, but this wouldn't be the starting point.
The starting point according to the video is a C350 PHEV, and this is
what emerges when you want a bigger bodyshell, that happens also to be
VTEC taxi-sized.
Did you miss the part about needing a lightweight body with room under the
floor for the bulky, heavy batteries?
Room under the floor for batteries sounds like the Mercedes B-Class
(also commonplace as a taxi), but I digress.
Post by Recliner
You can't get away with just rushing
out a bodge job like that, when a proper, custom-designed alternative is
already on the streets.
The proposition is an evolutionary (not revolutionary) competitive
vehicle from Mercedes, based on a decade of their experience in this
kind of motive power, and of course in having both diesel and electric
London cabs already approved.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-25 17:10:17 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 16:06:49 on Thu, 25 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 14:54:40 on Thu, 25 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
http://youtu.be/P6lMt2E0lyg
<https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1043849_new-london-taxi-steers-
from-the-rear-now-going-electric-too>
That story about a prototype was from 2010. I wonder if they
ever followed
it up with a production vehicle? I'd have thought the range was much too
low for a BEV taxi without a range extender, but if course it might be
better with today's batteries.
The thing is, whether they built one or a hundred, it was designed and
approved for the London cab market. If, as an all-electric, it flopped
(?) it shouldn't be hard to get the same approval for a London version
of the Vito hybrid in the video.
Yes, I'm sure Mercedes will want to remain in and competitive in the London
taxi market, but it might need an all-new vehicle to compete with the new
TX. Simply installing a hybrid drive train in the old steel van will
produce a very heavy vehicle, with a short battery range, lost luggage
space, and excessive petrol consumption. Mercedes is certainly capable of
building something competitive, but will have to start from scratch to do
so.
You don't think the car in the video has the potential to be that
vehicle?
Definitely not, for the reasons I stated above.
I promise not to tell Mercedes you know more about car design than their
experts.
Mercedes isn't promoting it as an electric/hybrid taxi.
Indeed, only a hybrid vehicle (electric was several years ago). With
potential. Next time, read the question before answering.
Not potential to be a London black cab with low emissions capabilities.
The spec given in the video (50km electric-only range, 90kW electric
motor, configured as an airport shuttle) is not far off. Might need a
slightly bigger battery, and replacing the diesel with a petrol engine,
but there's plenty of room.
It has only a 13.5kWh battery. Given the size and weight of the vehicle, it
would need to be about 3-4 times bigger to have a useful EV range as a
taxi. You'd need to get rid of another row of seats to fit it in.

The electric motor is only 88 kW. How do you think that will perform in a
2.5 tonne vehicle in traffic?

Compare those figures to the 33 kWh battery pack and 110 kW for the lighter
TX?
Post by Roland Perry
[In case you hadn't noticed, the bit in the video about room in the
back, is for making a 7-seater].
That hybrid concept was from three years ago. Has it been launched yet as a
low emissions London cab? In fact, has it been launched at all?
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
That would be you.
And I certainly know more about car design than you do.
Style or mechanicals? And why...
Hello!?!
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
[When I was a computer designer I got fed up with people asking "why
that off-cream colour?", when that was one of the few things I hadn't
been asked to contribute to. If I had, I might even have said "because
everyone else does, and it's the equivalent of the model-T Ford's
black".]
Post by Recliner
I don't doubt that Mercedes is capable of producing a viable PHEV taxi for
London, but this wouldn't be the starting point.
The starting point according to the video is a C350 PHEV, and this is
what emerges when you want a bigger bodyshell, that happens also to be
VTEC taxi-sized.
Did you miss the part about needing a lightweight body with room under the
floor for the bulky, heavy batteries?
Room under the floor for batteries sounds like the Mercedes B-Class
(also commonplace as a taxi), but I digress.
Post by Recliner
You can't get away with just rushing
out a bodge job like that, when a proper, custom-designed alternative is
already on the streets.
The proposition is an evolutionary (not revolutionary) competitive
vehicle from Mercedes, based on a decade of their experience in this
kind of motive power, and of course in having both diesel and electric
London cabs already approved.
That 2015 proposition, which actually seems to have disappeared without
trace (like the earlier electric one), was a quick and dirty Frankenstein
botch-up, taking the drivetrain from a small luxury car and bolting it into
a heavy van. It wouldn't have been a serious offering as a London cab,
which was presumably why Mercedes never pretended it would be. It took me
about two minutes as an engineer to see that. Mercedes seems to have even
abandoned it as a hybrid van, probably because it has a serious,
properly-engineered offering on the way.

As I keep telling you, you need a ground-up design for any competitive
vehicle of this type, with the big, heavy
batteries under the long wheelbase floor, and space for just a small engine
under the bonnet. It doesn't need a large fuel tank, as petrol consumption
will be low. The body needs to be light (to compensate for the heavy
batteries), and designed around those requirements.

It doesn't take much engineering nous to understand that, but perhaps it's
less obvious to a PR consultant?
Roland Perry
2018-01-26 16:02:25 UTC
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<1730178073.538591600.869681.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-sept
ember.org>, at 17:10:17 on Thu, 25 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
That 2015 proposition, which actually seems to have disappeared without
trace (like the earlier electric one), was a quick and dirty Frankenstein
botch-up, taking the drivetrain from a small luxury car and bolting it into
a heavy van. It wouldn't have been a serious offering as a London cab,
which was presumably why Mercedes never pretended it would be. It took me
about two minutes as an engineer to see that. Mercedes seems to have even
abandoned it as a hybrid van, probably because it has a serious,
properly-engineered offering on the way.
As I keep telling you, you need a ground-up design for any competitive
vehicle of this type, with the big, heavy batteries under the long
wheelbase floor, and space for just a small engine under the bonnet.
The under the bonnet of a Vito is quite big.
Post by Recliner
It doesn't need a large fuel tank, as petrol consumption
will be low. The body needs to be light (to compensate for the heavy
batteries), and designed around those requirements.
It doesn't take much engineering nous to understand that, but perhaps it's
less obvious to a PR consultant?
The one good thing which comes out of this is, that perhaps you won't
ever again believe the PR hype about (amongst other things) shiny new
vehicles.

Let's meet in another three years to discuss the ones you claim are the
emperor's new clothes this week.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-26 16:38:45 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 17:10:17 on Thu, 25 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
That 2015 proposition, which actually seems to have disappeared without
trace (like the earlier electric one), was a quick and dirty Frankenstein
botch-up, taking the drivetrain from a small luxury car and bolting it into
a heavy van. It wouldn't have been a serious offering as a London cab,
which was presumably why Mercedes never pretended it would be. It took me
about two minutes as an engineer to see that. Mercedes seems to have even
abandoned it as a hybrid van, probably because it has a serious,
properly-engineered offering on the way.
As I keep telling you, you need a ground-up design for any competitive
vehicle of this type, with the big, heavy batteries under the long
wheelbase floor, and space for just a small engine under the bonnet.
The under the bonnet of a Vito is quite big.
Yes, space wasted if they ever wanted to turn it into a low emissions
London taxi. As I keep explaining, PHEVs and BEVs need to have a very
different body design to an old-fashioned ICE vehicle. That Vito would
be a completely unsuitable candidate. It's perfectly possible that
Mercedes will one day build a new cab that can be sold in London, but
it won't be based on the old Vito.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
It doesn't need a large fuel tank, as petrol consumption
will be low. The body needs to be light (to compensate for the heavy
batteries), and designed around those requirements.
It doesn't take much engineering nous to understand that, but perhaps it's
less obvious to a PR consultant?
The one good thing which comes out of this is, that perhaps you won't
ever again believe the PR hype about (amongst other things) shiny new
vehicles.
You're the one who fell for the hype in old Mercedes documents that
described concept cars that never led to a production model.
Post by Roland Perry
Let's meet in another three years to discuss the ones you claim are the
emperor's new clothes this week.
So, have you seen a single one of those 2010 electric Mercedes taxis
on the road that you were promoting ("competitive vehicle from
Mercedes, based on a decade of their experience in this kind of motive
power, and of course in having both diesel and electric London cabs
already approved")?
<https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1043849_new-london-taxi-steers-from-the-rear-now-going-electric-too>


Or the 2015 PHEV Vito that you described as "already done"?
http://youtu.be/P6lMt2E0lyg

No, of course, not, as they were just PR hype that you fell for.

So if there are precisely zero of those eight and three year old Mercs
you were promoting in existence, who is the one who "believed the PR
hype about (amongst other things) shiny new vehicles"? I prefer to
live in the real world, of actual, fully-engineered vehicles being
delivered to paying customers, not just press releases and promo
videos:

<https://cleantechnica.com/2018/01/24/1st-new-tx-ecity-london-electric-taxi-handed-london-cabbie/>

<http://www.cityam.com/279288/first-londons-new-electric-black-cabs-has-been-handed-over>

<http://www.carsuk.net/first-electric-london-black-cab-delivered-and-picking-up-fares/>
Roland Perry
2018-01-27 08:19:55 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The one good thing which comes out of this is, that perhaps you won't
ever again believe the PR hype about (amongst other things) shiny new
vehicles.
You're the one who fell for the hype in old Mercedes documents that
described concept cars that never led to a production model.
I was responding to Neil with the news that the "equivalent Mercedes
Vito taxi" already existed, even if only as a concept car. As you
rightly point out, not every concept car goes into production.

Meanwhile, I regard almost every self-driving car project (of which you
are a serial fan) as concept cars which won't ever get into production.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-27 20:38:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The one good thing which comes out of this is, that perhaps you won't
ever again believe the PR hype about (amongst other things) shiny new
vehicles.
You're the one who fell for the hype in old Mercedes documents that
described concept cars that never led to a production model.
I was responding to Neil with the news that the "equivalent Mercedes
Vito taxi" already existed, even if only as a concept car. As you
rightly point out, not every concept car goes into production.
Meanwhile, I regard almost every self-driving car project (of which you
are a serial fan) as concept cars which won't ever get into production.
Yes, today's prototype autonomous cars are just that. I do think autonomous
cars will go into production (unlike those Mercedes brochure concepts,
which didn't exist), as plenty of autonomous cars are already being tested
on public roads. They're not yet ready for commercial release, and I dare
say Waymo will miss its 2020 deadline, just as it missed its 2017 one, but
we will see genuine level 4 vehicles running in commercial service in the
early/mid 2020s. Level 5 is much further away.

Despite all its hype, I don't think Tesla will lead the field, and I don't
think any of the Tesla cars already shipped will be upgradeable to level
4.
Roland Perry
2018-01-27 21:33:43 UTC
Permalink
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In message
<1819605284.538774783.711526.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-sept
ember.org>, at 20:38:35 on Sat, 27 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The one good thing which comes out of this is, that perhaps you won't
ever again believe the PR hype about (amongst other things) shiny new
vehicles.
You're the one who fell for the hype in old Mercedes documents that
described concept cars that never led to a production model.
I was responding to Neil with the news that the "equivalent Mercedes
Vito taxi" already existed, even if only as a concept car. As you
rightly point out, not every concept car goes into production.
Meanwhile, I regard almost every self-driving car project (of which you
are a serial fan) as concept cars which won't ever get into production.
Yes, today's prototype autonomous cars are just that. I do think autonomous
cars will go into production (unlike those Mercedes brochure concepts,
which didn't exist),
I agree with a lot of what you say, but those concept cars did exist.
They aren't holograms.
Post by Recliner
as plenty of autonomous cars are already being tested
on public roads. They're not yet ready for commercial release, and I dare
say Waymo will miss its 2020 deadline, just as it missed its 2017 one, but
we will see genuine level 4 vehicles running in commercial service in the
early/mid 2020s. Level 5 is much further away.
Despite all its hype, I don't think Tesla will lead the field, and I don't
think any of the Tesla cars already shipped will be upgradeable to level
4.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-27 22:09:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 20:38:35 on Sat, 27 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The one good thing which comes out of this is, that perhaps you won't
ever again believe the PR hype about (amongst other things) shiny new
vehicles.
You're the one who fell for the hype in old Mercedes documents that
described concept cars that never led to a production model.
I was responding to Neil with the news that the "equivalent Mercedes
Vito taxi" already existed, even if only as a concept car. As you
rightly point out, not every concept car goes into production.
Meanwhile, I regard almost every self-driving car project (of which you
are a serial fan) as concept cars which won't ever get into production.
Yes, today's prototype autonomous cars are just that. I do think autonomous
cars will go into production (unlike those Mercedes brochure concepts,
which didn't exist),
I agree with a lot of what you say, but those concept cars did exist.
They aren't holograms.
Did the one in the video actually exist as a working, engineered car with
the described PHEV power train, or was it just a mock-up? Concept cars
often don't have the right mechanicals underneath, and some won't move
under their own power at all. The video dwelt on the seating options, but I
don't recall that it showed what was under the bonnet or the car moving.
Roland Perry
2018-01-28 08:54:05 UTC
Permalink
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In message
<587666155.538783316.898746.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 22:09:18 on Sat, 27 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The one good thing which comes out of this is, that perhaps you won't
ever again believe the PR hype about (amongst other things) shiny new
vehicles.
You're the one who fell for the hype in old Mercedes documents that
described concept cars that never led to a production model.
I was responding to Neil with the news that the "equivalent Mercedes
Vito taxi" already existed, even if only as a concept car. As you
rightly point out, not every concept car goes into production.
Meanwhile, I regard almost every self-driving car project (of which you
are a serial fan) as concept cars which won't ever get into production.
Yes, today's prototype autonomous cars are just that. I do think autonomous
cars will go into production (unlike those Mercedes brochure concepts,
which didn't exist),
I agree with a lot of what you say, but those concept cars did exist.
They aren't holograms.
Did the one in the video actually exist as a working, engineered car with
the described PHEV power train, or was it just a mock-up? Concept cars
often don't have the right mechanicals underneath, and some won't move
under their own power at all. The video dwelt on the seating options, but I
don't recall that it showed what was under the bonnet or the car moving.
The reason I posted both was to illustrate that there was a real live
project offered for sale (and accepted design by the London Carriage
Office) for an *electric* Vito - even if didn't catch on.

Then there was the one (in the video) with the PHEV power train, which
while configured for the motorshow as a limo was being reported as
suitable to be re-fitted as a van. And if it could be refitted as a van,
then it could be refitted as a London Cab.

The part in the video about "transplanting the c350 PHEV power train"
makes it sound like they actually did have a working vehicle, and not
one built in the lab out of custom parts.

Talking of custom - I went to Custom House DLR a few years back to visit
the motor show at ExCel in 2008, and it was heaving with EVs. Almost all
built out of meccano and chewing gum. So I am aware that would-be
unknown-branded manufacturers are legion, but expect better from
Mercedes.

Anyway, back to that video, and it has some very specific performance
figures (not drafted in the manner of projected performance), and
fitting that power train in a bigger vehicle is hardly going to be a
squeeze.

There's several other videos of the same concept car - and being driven
at 9:20 into this one:
and
the admittedly sales-pitch presentation that follows claims it's pretty
much ready to go into production if they wanted to.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-28 09:29:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 22:09:18 on Sat, 27 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The one good thing which comes out of this is, that perhaps you won't
ever again believe the PR hype about (amongst other things) shiny new
vehicles.
You're the one who fell for the hype in old Mercedes documents that
described concept cars that never led to a production model.
I was responding to Neil with the news that the "equivalent Mercedes
Vito taxi" already existed, even if only as a concept car. As you
rightly point out, not every concept car goes into production.
Meanwhile, I regard almost every self-driving car project (of which you
are a serial fan) as concept cars which won't ever get into production.
Yes, today's prototype autonomous cars are just that. I do think autonomous
cars will go into production (unlike those Mercedes brochure concepts,
which didn't exist),
I agree with a lot of what you say, but those concept cars did exist.
They aren't holograms.
Did the one in the video actually exist as a working, engineered car with
the described PHEV power train, or was it just a mock-up? Concept cars
often don't have the right mechanicals underneath, and some won't move
under their own power at all. The video dwelt on the seating options, but I
don't recall that it showed what was under the bonnet or the car moving.
The reason I posted both was to illustrate that there was a real live
project offered for sale (and accepted design by the London Carriage
Office) for an *electric* Vito - even if didn't catch on.
I don't think it was ever offered for sale.
Post by Roland Perry
Then there was the one (in the video) with the PHEV power train, which
while configured for the motorshow as a limo was being reported as
suitable to be re-fitted as a van. And if it could be refitted as a van,
then it could be refitted as a London Cab.
Yes, but not with performance figures that would be remotely attractive to
cabbies. That's why they didn't bother. It would have needed a battery pack
at least three times bigger, it would have weighed over 3 tonnes, and the
electric motor would also have needed to be twice the size. It would
probably have cost north of £100k. Fuel costs would also be high, and
recharging times too long. As I said, it wouldn't have taken more than a
few minutes analysis to realise that it was a non-starter, which is why
Mercedes never proposed it.

There could be a market for a PHEV version of the venerable Vito, but
Mercedes seems to have decided that sales would be far too low to bother
with that particular proposal. The performance on battery alone would be
unusable and it almost certainly wouldn't have managed the mandatory 50km
range. But perhaps the next all-new model will be designed to include a
proper PHEV version?
Post by Roland Perry
The part in the video about "transplanting the c350 PHEV power train"
makes it sound like they actually did have a working vehicle, and not
one built in the lab out of custom parts.
Sure, you could put a team of bodgers on to doing it, but that doesn't mean
it's worth
doing.
Post by Roland Perry
Talking of custom - I went to Custom House DLR a few years back to visit
the motor show at ExCel in 2008, and it was heaving with EVs. Almost all
built out of meccano and chewing gum. So I am aware that would-be
unknown-branded manufacturers are legion, but expect better from
Mercedes.
Indeed. That's why I'm so surprised that you're convinced that Mercedes
would be so stupid as to launch anything so poor as that video mock-up. No
wonder it concentrated on the only good thing about that car, the luxury
passenger seats.
Post by Roland Perry
Anyway, back to that video, and it has some very specific performance
figures (not drafted in the manner of projected performance), and
fitting that power train in a bigger vehicle is hardly going to be a
squeeze.
There's several other videos of the same concept car - and being driven
at 9:20 into this one: http://youtu.be/Ahgu4-2asZ0 and
the admittedly sales-pitch presentation that follows claims it's pretty
much ready to go into production if they wanted to.
And it's hardly surprising that they didn't want to. It would have flopped.
Roland Perry
2018-01-28 11:07:18 UTC
Permalink
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In message <1340031510.538823629.508631.recliner.ng-
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The one good thing which comes out of this is, that perhaps you won't
ever again believe the PR hype about (amongst other things) shiny new
vehicles.
You're the one who fell for the hype in old Mercedes documents that
described concept cars that never led to a production model.
I was responding to Neil with the news that the "equivalent Mercedes
Vito taxi" already existed, even if only as a concept car. As you
rightly point out, not every concept car goes into production.
Meanwhile, I regard almost every self-driving car project (of which you
are a serial fan) as concept cars which won't ever get into production.
Yes, today's prototype autonomous cars are just that. I do think autonomous
cars will go into production (unlike those Mercedes brochure concepts,
which didn't exist),
I agree with a lot of what you say, but those concept cars did exist.
They aren't holograms.
Did the one in the video actually exist as a working, engineered car with
the described PHEV power train, or was it just a mock-up? Concept cars
often don't have the right mechanicals underneath, and some won't move
under their own power at all. The video dwelt on the seating options, but I
don't recall that it showed what was under the bonnet or the car moving.
The reason I posted both was to illustrate that there was a real live
project offered for sale (and accepted design by the London Carriage
Office) for an *electric* Vito - even if didn't catch on.
I don't think it was ever offered for sale.
Maybe not (I suspect Boris's plans for an all-electric City stumbled,
and with it the commercial prospects of that vehicle). But the official
Mercedes Vito E-Cell, was.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Then there was the one (in the video) with the PHEV power train, which
while configured for the motorshow as a limo was being reported as
suitable to be re-fitted as a van. And if it could be refitted as a van,
then it could be refitted as a London Cab.
Yes, but not with performance figures that would be remotely attractive to
cabbies. That's why they didn't bother. It would have needed a battery pack
at least three times bigger, it would have weighed over 3 tonnes, and the
electric motor would also have needed to be twice the size. It would
probably have cost north of £100k. Fuel costs would also be high, and
recharging times too long. As I said, it wouldn't have taken more than a
few minutes analysis to realise that it was a non-starter, which is why
Mercedes never proposed it.
I disagree with your analysis, almost every part except *needing* a
bigger battery. And if a battery that size works fine in a Leaf it's
impact on the Vito would be minimal, as indeed it was fine in the E-
cell. Or in the later e-Vito:

<https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans/news-and-advice/2017/november/mercedes-
electric-vans/>
Post by Recliner
There could be a market for a PHEV version of the venerable Vito, but
Mercedes seems to have decided that sales would be far too low to bother
with that particular proposal.
Very likely. But the reason it was mentioned is because it's proven
technology and could be manufactured starting tomorrow.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The part in the video about "transplanting the c350 PHEV power train"
makes it sound like they actually did have a working vehicle, and not
one built in the lab out of custom parts.
Sure, you could put a team of bodgers on to doing it, but that doesn't
mean it's worth doing.
They put Mercedes' professional designers onto it. But you know better
than them, apparently.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Talking of custom - I went to Custom House DLR a few years back to visit
the motor show at ExCel in 2008, and it was heaving with EVs. Almost all
built out of meccano and chewing gum. So I am aware that would-be
unknown-branded manufacturers are legion, but expect better from
Mercedes.
Indeed. That's why I'm so surprised that you're convinced that Mercedes
would be so stupid as to launch anything so poor as that video mock-up. No
wonder it concentrated on the only good thing about that car, the luxury
passenger seats.
You must have missed the rest (it's described better in the second video
I linked to).
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-28 11:45:19 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Roland Perry
In message <1340031510.538823629.508631.recliner.ng-
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The one good thing which comes out of this is, that perhaps you won't
ever again believe the PR hype about (amongst other things) shiny new
vehicles.
You're the one who fell for the hype in old Mercedes documents that
described concept cars that never led to a production model.
I was responding to Neil with the news that the "equivalent Mercedes
Vito taxi" already existed, even if only as a concept car. As you
rightly point out, not every concept car goes into production.
Meanwhile, I regard almost every self-driving car project (of which you
are a serial fan) as concept cars which won't ever get into production.
Yes, today's prototype autonomous cars are just that. I do think autonomous
cars will go into production (unlike those Mercedes brochure concepts,
which didn't exist),
I agree with a lot of what you say, but those concept cars did exist.
They aren't holograms.
Did the one in the video actually exist as a working, engineered car with
the described PHEV power train, or was it just a mock-up? Concept cars
often don't have the right mechanicals underneath, and some won't move
under their own power at all. The video dwelt on the seating options, but I
don't recall that it showed what was under the bonnet or the car moving.
The reason I posted both was to illustrate that there was a real live
project offered for sale (and accepted design by the London Carriage
Office) for an *electric* Vito - even if didn't catch on.
I don't think it was ever offered for sale.
Maybe not (I suspect Boris's plans for an all-electric City stumbled,
and with it the commercial prospects of that vehicle). But the official
Mercedes Vito E-Cell, was.
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Then there was the one (in the video) with the PHEV power train, which
while configured for the motorshow as a limo was being reported as
suitable to be re-fitted as a van. And if it could be refitted as a van,
then it could be refitted as a London Cab.
Yes, but not with performance figures that would be remotely attractive to
cabbies. That's why they didn't bother. It would have needed a battery pack
at least three times bigger, it would have weighed over 3 tonnes, and the
electric motor would also have needed to be twice the size. It would
probably have cost north of £100k. Fuel costs would also be high, and
recharging times too long. As I said, it wouldn't have taken more than a
few minutes analysis to realise that it was a non-starter, which is why
Mercedes never proposed it.
I disagree with your analysis, almost every part except *needing* a
bigger battery. And if a battery that size works fine in a Leaf it's
impact on the Vito would be minimal, as indeed it was fine in the E-
cell.
The Leaf was designed from scratch to accommodate the battery pack. The
Vito was not.
Post by Roland Perry
<https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans/news-and-advice/2017/november/mercedes-
electric-vans/>
Do you seriously think a pure EV taxi with a claimed range of 93 miles
would sell? That's fine for a PHEV taxi, but a BEV taxi would need at
least twice as much (a Leaf 2 claims a range of up to 235 miles).
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
There could be a market for a PHEV version of the venerable Vito, but
Mercedes seems to have decided that sales would be far too low to bother
with that particular proposal.
Very likely. But the reason it was mentioned is because it's proven
technology and could be manufactured starting tomorrow.
Yes, but why bother building something no-one would buy? You need to some
serious engineering to build a competitive PHEV or BEV, not just throw
something together from the parts bin.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The part in the video about "transplanting the c350 PHEV power train"
makes it sound like they actually did have a working vehicle, and not
one built in the lab out of custom parts.
Sure, you could put a team of bodgers on to doing it, but that doesn't
mean it's worth doing.
They put Mercedes' professional designers onto it. But you know better
than them, apparently.
Professional brochure and video designers, yes. But I have much more
respect for Mercedes' professional engineers than you appear to do.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Talking of custom - I went to Custom House DLR a few years back to visit
the motor show at ExCel in 2008, and it was heaving with EVs. Almost all
built out of meccano and chewing gum. So I am aware that would-be
unknown-branded manufacturers are legion, but expect better from
Mercedes.
Indeed. That's why I'm so surprised that you're convinced that Mercedes
would be so stupid as to launch anything so poor as that video mock-up. No
wonder it concentrated on the only good thing about that car, the luxury
passenger seats.
You must have missed the rest (it's described better in the second video
I linked to).
No, I watched it through, and a fine example of moody shots of body
exteriors and interiors it was, too.

But I'm an engineer, and would have liked to have heard more than the 0.0
seconds it provided on the engineering of the still-born concept. Where
were the under-bonnet shots? Why didn't we see it driving in, and keeping
up with, traffic in pure EV mode? Where were the range test results? Why
no shots of the battery pack? Are the front or rear wheels driven? What
kind of transmission?

I guess you must have forgotten all your engineering if you thought that
video had useful content.
Mark
2018-01-30 00:46:55 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 22:09:18 on Sat, 27 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The one good thing which comes out of this is, that perhaps you won't
ever again believe the PR hype about (amongst other things) shiny new
vehicles.
You're the one who fell for the hype in old Mercedes documents that
described concept cars that never led to a production model.
I was responding to Neil with the news that the "equivalent Mercedes
Vito taxi" already existed, even if only as a concept car. As you
rightly point out, not every concept car goes into production.
Meanwhile, I regard almost every self-driving car project (of which you
are a serial fan) as concept cars which won't ever get into production.
Yes, today's prototype autonomous cars are just that. I do think autonomous
cars will go into production (unlike those Mercedes brochure concepts,
which didn't exist),
I agree with a lot of what you say, but those concept cars did exist.
They aren't holograms.
Did the one in the video actually exist as a working, engineered car with
the described PHEV power train, or was it just a mock-up? Concept cars
often don't have the right mechanicals underneath, and some won't move
under their own power at all. The video dwelt on the seating options, but I
don't recall that it showed what was under the bonnet or the car moving.
The reason I posted both was to illustrate that there was a real live
project offered for sale (and accepted design by the London Carriage
Office) for an *electric* Vito - even if didn't catch on.
This isn't true. There has never been an electric Vito taxi offered for
sale in London, and neither has one ever been "accepted" by the "London
Carriage Office" (You mean the Public Carriage Office, which has long been
subsumed by Transport for London)

Three companies put forward designs for cabs to meet the new regulations,
LTI (renamed LEVC) who've finally delivered their first, Nissan with a
proposition based on their NV200 van, and Metrocab. Mercedes didn't.

I can guarantee you uptake of the LEVC TX5 will be remarkably slow.
Recliner
2018-01-30 01:02:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mark
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 22:09:18 on Sat, 27 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The one good thing which comes out of this is, that perhaps you won't
ever again believe the PR hype about (amongst other things) shiny new
vehicles.
You're the one who fell for the hype in old Mercedes documents that
described concept cars that never led to a production model.
I was responding to Neil with the news that the "equivalent Mercedes
Vito taxi" already existed, even if only as a concept car. As you
rightly point out, not every concept car goes into production.
Meanwhile, I regard almost every self-driving car project (of which you
are a serial fan) as concept cars which won't ever get into production.
Yes, today's prototype autonomous cars are just that. I do think autonomous
cars will go into production (unlike those Mercedes brochure concepts,
which didn't exist),
I agree with a lot of what you say, but those concept cars did exist.
They aren't holograms.
Did the one in the video actually exist as a working, engineered car with
the described PHEV power train, or was it just a mock-up? Concept cars
often don't have the right mechanicals underneath, and some won't move
under their own power at all. The video dwelt on the seating options, but I
don't recall that it showed what was under the bonnet or the car moving.
The reason I posted both was to illustrate that there was a real live
project offered for sale (and accepted design by the London Carriage
Office) for an *electric* Vito - even if didn't catch on.
This isn't true. There has never been an electric Vito taxi offered for
sale in London, and neither has one ever been "accepted" by the "London
Carriage Office" (You mean the Public Carriage Office, which has long been
subsumed by Transport for London)
Three companies put forward designs for cabs to meet the new regulations,
LTI (renamed LEVC) who've finally delivered their first, Nissan with a
proposition based on their NV200 van, and Metrocab. Mercedes didn't.
I can guarantee you uptake of the LEVC TX5 will be remarkably slow.
Why is that, and are there any other options for new taxis in London
currently? Or will cabbies simply wait for other options to be available
before buying a new cab?

I was intrigued to read of the Heathrow taxi charging station, but it
sounds like it currently has rather few chargers. Are PHEV cabs able to
keep their place in the queue while charging?
Mark
2018-01-30 01:29:20 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by Mark
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 22:09:18 on Sat, 27 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The one good thing which comes out of this is, that perhaps you won't
ever again believe the PR hype about (amongst other things) shiny new
vehicles.
You're the one who fell for the hype in old Mercedes documents that
described concept cars that never led to a production model.
I was responding to Neil with the news that the "equivalent Mercedes
Vito taxi" already existed, even if only as a concept car. As you
rightly point out, not every concept car goes into production.
Meanwhile, I regard almost every self-driving car project (of which you
are a serial fan) as concept cars which won't ever get into production.
Yes, today's prototype autonomous cars are just that. I do think autonomous
cars will go into production (unlike those Mercedes brochure concepts,
which didn't exist),
I agree with a lot of what you say, but those concept cars did exist.
They aren't holograms.
Did the one in the video actually exist as a working, engineered car with
the described PHEV power train, or was it just a mock-up? Concept cars
often don't have the right mechanicals underneath, and some won't move
under their own power at all. The video dwelt on the seating options, but I
don't recall that it showed what was under the bonnet or the car moving.
The reason I posted both was to illustrate that there was a real live
project offered for sale (and accepted design by the London Carriage
Office) for an *electric* Vito - even if didn't catch on.
This isn't true. There has never been an electric Vito taxi offered for
sale in London, and neither has one ever been "accepted" by the "London
Carriage Office" (You mean the Public Carriage Office, which has long been
subsumed by Transport for London)
Three companies put forward designs for cabs to meet the new regulations,
LTI (renamed LEVC) who've finally delivered their first, Nissan with a
proposition based on their NV200 van, and Metrocab. Mercedes didn't.
I can guarantee you uptake of the LEVC TX5 will be remarkably slow.
Why is that, and are there any other options for new taxis in London
currently? Or will cabbies simply wait for other options to be available
before buying a new cab?
Mainly cost and lack of infrastructure. The press release puffs about it
have avoided mentioning there's nowhere to actually charge it, and of
course while you're charging it you can't use it. They have been truthful
in saying most London cabs aren't owned but rented, but neglected to say
the rental trade is mostly from fleet garages, not from the manufacturer.

There's no hope of an alternative vehicle in the immediate (i.e. 3? years)
future.

I think what will happen is people being very conservative and wary of change.
What that'll affect though is the second hand prices of cabs will be (even
more) inflated and rather than getting rid of diesel taxis you'll end up with
more of them being kept until they have to be scrapped after 15 years.

Most people I know are very cynical about it all.

(I think someone earlier in the thread said the age limit in London was 20
years, it's not, it was changed a few years ago)
Post by Recliner
I was intrigued to read of the Heathrow taxi charging station, but it
sounds like it currently has rather few chargers. Are PHEV cabs able to
keep their place in the queue while charging?
I'll find out about that, but I think a lot of people would be surprised to
know that it's not uncommon for cabs to spend 2+ hours in Heathrow's "feeder
parks" before getting a fare.
Roland Perry
2018-01-30 08:24:47 UTC
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Post by Mark
Post by Recliner
I was intrigued to read of the Heathrow taxi charging station, but it
sounds like it currently has rather few chargers.
That's pretty much true of all charging stations everywhere. eg maybe
three or four at a motorway services. Apart from the capital cost of the
chargers, it avoids having to build a new substation and its feed from
the grid.
Post by Mark
Post by Recliner
Are PHEV cabs able to keep their place in the queue while charging?
I'll find out about that, but I think a lot of people would be surprised to
know that it's not uncommon for cabs to spend 2+ hours in Heathrow's "feeder
parks" before getting a fare.
Apart from the cost of the fuel, they could perhaps keep their engine
running to "range extend". Or is that likely to be banned.

Heathrow is, of course, one of the last places to want pollution
outsourced to from Central London - unintended consequences in spades.
--
Roland Perry
news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley)
2018-01-27 23:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 20:38:35 on Sat, 27 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The one good thing which comes out of this is, that perhaps you won't
ever again believe the PR hype about (amongst other things) shiny new
vehicles.
You're the one who fell for the hype in old Mercedes documents that
described concept cars that never led to a production model.
I was responding to Neil with the news that the "equivalent Mercedes
Vito taxi" already existed, even if only as a concept car. As you
rightly point out, not every concept car goes into production.
Meanwhile, I regard almost every self-driving car project (of which you
are a serial fan) as concept cars which won't ever get into production.
Yes, today's prototype autonomous cars are just that. I do think autonomous
cars will go into production (unlike those Mercedes brochure concepts,
which didn't exist),
I agree with a lot of what you say, but those concept cars did exist.
They aren't holograms.
Post by Recliner
as plenty of autonomous cars are already being tested
on public roads. They're not yet ready for commercial release, and I dare
say Waymo will miss its 2020 deadline, just as it missed its 2017 one, but
we will see genuine level 4 vehicles running in commercial service in the
early/mid 2020s. Level 5 is much further away.
Despite all its hype, I don't think Tesla will lead the field, and I don't
think any of the Tesla cars already shipped will be upgradeable to level
4.
GM say they will start productiuon in 2019
<https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/12/16880978/gm-autonomous-car-2019-detroit-auto-show-2018>
--
Mark
Recliner
2018-01-27 23:49:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley)
Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 20:38:35 on Sat, 27 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
The one good thing which comes out of this is, that perhaps you won't
ever again believe the PR hype about (amongst other things) shiny new
vehicles.
You're the one who fell for the hype in old Mercedes documents that
described concept cars that never led to a production model.
I was responding to Neil with the news that the "equivalent Mercedes
Vito taxi" already existed, even if only as a concept car. As you
rightly point out, not every concept car goes into production.
Meanwhile, I regard almost every self-driving car project (of which you
are a serial fan) as concept cars which won't ever get into production.
Yes, today's prototype autonomous cars are just that. I do think autonomous
cars will go into production (unlike those Mercedes brochure concepts,
which didn't exist),
I agree with a lot of what you say, but those concept cars did exist.
They aren't holograms.
Post by Recliner
as plenty of autonomous cars are already being tested
on public roads. They're not yet ready for commercial release, and I dare
say Waymo will miss its 2020 deadline, just as it missed its 2017 one, but
we will see genuine level 4 vehicles running in commercial service in the
early/mid 2020s. Level 5 is much further away.
Despite all its hype, I don't think Tesla will lead the field, and I don't
think any of the Tesla cars already shipped will be upgradeable to level
4.
GM say they will start productiuon in 2019
<https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/12/16880978/gm-autonomous-car-2019-detroit-auto-show-2018>
Yes, GM is one of the leaders, but I must admit that's sooner than I
expected.
Roland Perry
2018-01-28 08:18:49 UTC
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In message
<841580237.538789618.403557.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 23:49:02 on Sat, 27 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley)
Post by Recliner
as plenty of autonomous cars are already being tested
on public roads. They're not yet ready for commercial release, and I dare
say Waymo will miss its 2020 deadline, just as it missed its 2017 one, but
we will see genuine level 4 vehicles running in commercial service in the
early/mid 2020s. Level 5 is much further away.
Despite all its hype, I don't think Tesla will lead the field, and I don't
think any of the Tesla cars already shipped will be upgradeable to level
4.
GM say they will start productiuon in 2019
<https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/12/16880978/gm-autonomous-car-2019-detroit-auto-show-2018>
Yes, GM is one of the leaders, but I must admit that's sooner than I
expected.
The question is: how many years does one have to *routinely add* to the
date in an 'announcement like that at a motor show', to get the date one
actually *expects* them to deployed in the wild?

To give a rail analogy, if there's talk of building a new station
somewhere, you can generally add five years to the first date that the
proposers give at the point they first claim it's a done deal.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-28 09:13:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 23:49:02 on Sat, 27 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley)
Post by Recliner
as plenty of autonomous cars are already being tested
on public roads. They're not yet ready for commercial release, and I dare
say Waymo will miss its 2020 deadline, just as it missed its 2017 one, but
we will see genuine level 4 vehicles running in commercial service in the
early/mid 2020s. Level 5 is much further away.
Despite all its hype, I don't think Tesla will lead the field, and I don't
think any of the Tesla cars already shipped will be upgradeable to level
4.
GM say they will start productiuon in 2019
<https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/12/16880978/gm-autonomous-car-2019-detroit-auto-show-2018>
Yes, GM is one of the leaders, but I must admit that's sooner than I
expected.
The question is: how many years does one have to *routinely add* to the
date in an 'announcement like that at a motor show', to get the date one
actually *expects* them to deployed in the wild?
To give a rail analogy, if there's talk of building a new station
somewhere, you can generally add five years to the first date that the
proposers give at the point they first claim it's a done deal.
That's a rather specific announcement about the release date of a car
that's already on test, from a company that has lots of shareholders to
answer to. It's the latest version of an already successful car that
already outsells all Tesla models combined. It's not remotely like the
vague political promise of a new railway station from politicians or
property developers, and was done in the context of a rather detailed
request to be allowed to fit a passenger's airbag rather than a steering
wheel airbag. It's probably only Tesla's announcements of future plans that
should be regarded as equivalent to politicians'.

Perhaps GM will still be slightly late and ship in 2020 rather than 2019,
but the commercial release of level 4 vehicles is certainly less than five,
and probably less than three, years away. Will it be GM that's first? Or
perhaps Volvo (Geely)? Or Waymo? Or Ford, or VW? Almost certainly not
Tesla, despite all of Musk's boasts. Whichever, it's a race that's going to
be won, possibly as soon as next year, but perhaps 2020 is more likely.

The early ones will be used as robocabs, with sale to the general public a
bit further away.

<http://uk.businessinsider.com/heres-how-soon-you-could-be-riding-in-a-driverless-car-2017-12>
Roland Perry
2018-01-28 10:40:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In message <1715790245.538822470.437340.recliner.ng-
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 23:49:02 on Sat, 27 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley)
Post by Recliner
as plenty of autonomous cars are already being tested
on public roads. They're not yet ready for commercial release, and I dare
say Waymo will miss its 2020 deadline, just as it missed its 2017 one, but
we will see genuine level 4 vehicles running in commercial service in the
early/mid 2020s. Level 5 is much further away.
Despite all its hype, I don't think Tesla will lead the field, and I don't
think any of the Tesla cars already shipped will be upgradeable to level
4.
GM say they will start productiuon in 2019
<https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/12/16880978/gm-autonomous-car-
2019-detroit-auto-show-2018>
Yes, GM is one of the leaders, but I must admit that's sooner than I
expected.
The question is: how many years does one have to *routinely add* to the
date in an 'announcement like that at a motor show', to get the date one
actually *expects* them to deployed in the wild?
To give a rail analogy, if there's talk of building a new station
somewhere, you can generally add five years to the first date that the
proposers give at the point they first claim it's a done deal.
That's a rather specific announcement about the release date of a car
that's already on test, from a company that has lots of shareholders to
answer to.
The car in that article has no steering wheel or pedals, thus sounds
much more like a Level 4. It's the level 3 they've been doing trials
with and sounds much more likely to be available by q8 2019 (ie knocking
on 2021).
Post by Recliner
It's the latest version of an already successful car
Is that a level 2 Bolt? (The level 3 is still in trials)

Most of the stuff written about self-driving, already in production, GMs
refer to the Supercruise, which of course shipped about two years late.

<https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-09-07/gm-to-introduce-
hands-free-driving-in-cadillac-model>
Post by Recliner
Perhaps GM will still be slightly late and ship in 2020 rather than 2019,
but the commercial release of level 4 vehicles is certainly less than five,
and probably less than three, years away.
I'm confused. Is the Bolt in the article a level 3, and yet no driver
controls?

Or are you finally getting with the programme and your 3-5 years for
level 4 is GM's 1-2yr plus my 2yr "standard add-on".
Post by Recliner
The early ones will be used as robocabs,
In particular, restricted to a small geofence (which suits the way the
US is organised as little islands of habitation) and expecting to have
wide open roads like in the USA.
Post by Recliner
with sale to the general public a bit further away.
Are they really going to accept the geofencing? I suppose it helps
dispel range anxiety.
Post by Recliner
<http://uk.businessinsider.com/heres-how-soon-you-could-be-riding-in-a-
driverless-car-2017-12>
"A Level 4 system might not work in the snow, for instance." Aha -
that's one of the things I've been mentioning as a show stopper for
quite some time.

Want a taxi in Boston in February - forget it!

Loading Image...
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
To give a rail analogy, if there's talk of building a new station
somewhere, you can generally add five years to the first date that the
proposers give at the point they first claim it's a done deal.
That's a rather specific announcement about the release date of a car
that's already on test,
...
Post by Recliner
It's not remotely like the vague political promise of a new railway
station from politicians or property developers,
The common feature is that project promises are never met. The only
difference between them is the number of excess years. For each *type
of* project, there are however fairly consistent numbers at play (~2yrs
for novel car technology, ~5yrs for new stations).
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-28 11:00:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
In message <1715790245.538822470.437340.recliner.ng-
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 23:49:02 on Sat, 27 Jan 2018, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley)
Post by Recliner
as plenty of autonomous cars are already being tested
on public roads. They're not yet ready for commercial release, and I dare
say Waymo will miss its 2020 deadline, just as it missed its 2017 one, but
we will see genuine level 4 vehicles running in commercial service in the
early/mid 2020s. Level 5 is much further away.
Despite all its hype, I don't think Tesla will lead the field, and I don't
think any of the Tesla cars already shipped will be upgradeable to level
4.
GM say they will start productiuon in 2019
<https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/12/16880978/gm-autonomous-car-
2019-detroit-auto-show-2018>
Yes, GM is one of the leaders, but I must admit that's sooner than I
expected.
The question is: how many years does one have to *routinely add* to the
date in an 'announcement like that at a motor show', to get the date one
actually *expects* them to deployed in the wild?
To give a rail analogy, if there's talk of building a new station
somewhere, you can generally add five years to the first date that the
proposers give at the point they first claim it's a done deal.
That's a rather specific announcement about the release date of a car
that's already on test, from a company that has lots of shareholders to
answer to.
The car in that article has no steering wheel or pedals, thus sounds
much more like a Level 4. It's the level 3 they've been doing trials
with and sounds much more likely to be available by q8 2019 (ie knocking
on 2021).
Yes, of course, while it's on test, you have to have the manual controls
available. That would be true even of a level 5 car on test. But the test
fails if the test driver is forced to intervene when the car is supposed to
be running autonomously.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
It's the latest version of an already successful car
Is that a level 2 Bolt?
I'm not sute that the current on-sale Bolt includes much of the autonomous
hardware.
Post by Roland Perry
The level 3 is still in trials
No, the level 4 is on test. I doubt that they'll develop or release a level
3 car.
Post by Roland Perry
Most of the stuff written about self-driving, already in production, GMs
refer to the Supercruise, which of course shipped about two years late.
<https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-09-07/gm-to-introduce-
hands-free-driving-in-cadillac-model>
Post by Recliner
Perhaps GM will still be slightly late and ship in 2020 rather than 2019,
but the commercial release of level 4 vehicles is certainly less than five,
and probably less than three, years away.
I'm confused. Is the Bolt in the article a level 3, and yet no driver
controls?
It's quite obviously level 4. Why are you confused?
Post by Roland Perry
Or are you finally getting with the programme and your 3-5 years for
level 4 is GM's 1-2yr plus my 2yr "standard add-on".
Post by Recliner
The early ones will be used as robocabs,
In particular, restricted to a small geofence (which suits the way the
US is organised as little islands of habitation) and expecting to have
wide open roads like in the USA.
Yes, I think Singapore and probably somewhere in China will also be among
the early level 4 deployment zones. Maybe there will be other early zones,
in Sweden, Japan, perhaps Germany. The UK will be further behind, and the
first zone won't be in central London.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
with sale to the general public a bit further away.
Are they really going to accept the geofencing? I suppose it helps
dispel range anxiety.
Cars sold to the public will be able to be driven semi-autonomously outside
their level 4 zone.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
<http://uk.businessinsider.com/heres-how-soon-you-could-be-riding-in-a-
driverless-car-2017-12>
"A Level 4 system might not work in the snow, for instance." Aha -
that's one of the things I've been mentioning as a show stopper for
quite some time.
Want a taxi in Boston in February - forget it!
Almost certainly, level 4 cars will drive better in snow than humans.
Post by Roland Perry
http://d279m997dpfwgl.cloudfront.net/wp/2017/11/epstein1.png
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
To give a rail analogy, if there's talk of building a new station
somewhere, you can generally add five years to the first date that the
proposers give at the point they first claim it's a done deal.
That's a rather specific announcement about the release date of a car
that's already on test,
...
Post by Recliner
It's not remotely like the vague political promise of a new railway
station from politicians or property developers,
The common feature is that project promises are never met. The only
difference between them is the number of excess years. For each *type
of* project, there are however fairly consistent numbers at play (~2yrs
for novel car technology, ~5yrs for new stations).
Sure, and that's why I said that 2019 might slip into 2020 or 21 (Waymo has
already slipped from 2017). But you were suggesting it would never happen,
rather than that the target dates might slip a bit.
Mark
2018-01-30 00:35:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Basil Jet
I think London taxi drivers are not allowed to register new diesel
vehicles any more, and this is the only electric one available, so they
have little choice, and will have no choice as old ones progressively
get written off or retired.
I would be very surprised if there was not an equivalent Mercedes Vito
Taxi before long.
I'd be very surprised if there was. Mercedes have known as long as every
other potential manufacturer when the deadline for electric cabs was, but.
chose not to bother. The Vito taxi was successful purely because it gave
people an option. Nobody would choose a TX or a Vito to drive themselves
if they didn't have to - it's weighing up the options. Do you want to drive
something closer to a car but with LTI's (and predecessors') famous
unreliability and general shonkyness, or a far better built van with a yellow
light on top?
Roland Perry
2018-01-24 14:40:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Recliner
"You also have to remember that this is a vehicle that will typically
have a 15 to 20-year life. It doesn't get replaced after seven years
like a conventional car,
I must have imagined the two 55-plate cars on my drive.
Post by Recliner
But, judging by this thread,
...
Post by Recliner
and Roland has told us he could have engineered it better.
I have said nothing of the sort. You having a bad day??
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2018-01-24 15:05:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
"You also have to remember that this is a vehicle that will typically
have a 15 to 20-year life. It doesn't get replaced after seven years
like a conventional car,
I must have imagined the two 55-plate cars on my drive.
Post by Recliner
But, judging by this thread,
...
Post by Recliner
and Roland has told us he could have engineered it better.
I have said nothing of the sort. You having a bad day??
Didn't you say of a definitely functional grille?
"Yes, it's undoubtedly styling (not functional)
...

They don't need *that size of* grill."

Obviously you think you know more about PHEV design than Geely:
"33kWh into 110kw hardly sounds like a 70 mile range.
...

I can work out that the battery will last for 18 minutes at full
power, alternatively at say 10mph average in Central London traffic,
an average power drain of 4.5kW over seven hours, but requiring a
motor 25 times as powerful.

I'm not saying it *is* wrong, just that it *sounds* wrong."
Roland Perry
2018-01-24 16:08:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
"You also have to remember that this is a vehicle that will typically
have a 15 to 20-year life. It doesn't get replaced after seven years
like a conventional car,
I must have imagined the two 55-plate cars on my drive.
Post by Recliner
But, judging by this thread,
...
Post by Recliner
and Roland has told us he could have engineered it better.
I have said nothing of the sort. You having a bad day??
Didn't you say of a definitely functional grille?
"Yes, it's undoubtedly styling (not functional)
...
They don't need *that size of* grill."
That isn't trying to re-engineer the car for them, it's a statement of
the bloody obvious. If you can't see the style pastiche of the old
grille you need better glasses.
Post by Recliner
"33kWh into 110kw hardly sounds like a 70 mile range.
...
I can work out that the battery will last for 18 minutes at full
power, alternatively at say 10mph average in Central London traffic,
an average power drain of 4.5kW over seven hours, but requiring a
motor 25 times as powerful.
I'm not saying it *is* wrong, just that it *sounds* wrong."
Precisely. I didn't say it *is* wrong. And again, I have made no
comments at all about the suitability of the size of battery or motor.
That was done by others (who are not Geely engineers either, such as
yourself).
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2018-01-24 15:03:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 17:33:41 -0800 (PST)
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the
look
of
the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite
old-fashioned
('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the skin (unlike the
primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets, they should
start
to
clean up the dirty air in central London.
<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-black-cab-now
operational-capital>
It looks great.
It would be hard for it to look any worse than the current Noddy and Big Ears
car design. Though to me it still looks like it was designed by an
undergraduate when you compare it with all the other MPVs on the market which
is essentially all it is with taxi specific bits and pieces added on.
ISTM that its deliberately designed to look as much like a historic London
cab as possible
whether you need skilled designers to do that, I couldn't possibly comment
Well, they certainly had skilled, well-respected designers on the
project. Peter Horbury (one of the world's top car designers), who was
"The starting point was to meet the requirements of such a vehicle -
the turning circle, the powertrain, the driver's space and then
carrying capacity. In truth, what we were then left with was a square
box. To get the shape, we then required to meet our aesthetic goals,
which was always going to be a challenge, but we pulled and pushed the
engineers and gradually we were able to create a car that is a modern
interpretation of what has gone before. My take on retro design is
that you shouldn't repeat what has gone before but you can offer up
nods that remind people of it. That's what we've done.
"You also have to remember that this is a vehicle that will typically
have a 15 to 20-year life. It doesn't get replaced after seven years
like a conventional car,
Is that right?

Many licensing authorities have age requirements for the vehicles that taxi
drives are allowed to use

In some cases a low as 4 years.

Does London really allow 15 YO vehicles?

tim
Recliner
2018-01-24 15:27:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 17:33:41 -0800 (PST)
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the
look
of
the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite old-fashioned
('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the skin (unlike the
primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets, they should
start
to
clean up the dirty air in central London.
<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-black-cab-now
operational-capital>
It looks great.
It would be hard for it to look any worse than the current Noddy and Big Ears
car design. Though to me it still looks like it was designed by an
undergraduate when you compare it with all the other MPVs on the market which
is essentially all it is with taxi specific bits and pieces added on.
ISTM that its deliberately designed to look as much like a historic London
cab as possible
whether you need skilled designers to do that, I couldn't possibly comment
Well, they certainly had skilled, well-respected designers on the
project. Peter Horbury (one of the world's top car designers), who was
"The starting point was to meet the requirements of such a vehicle -
the turning circle, the powertrain, the driver's space and then
carrying capacity. In truth, what we were then left with was a square
box. To get the shape, we then required to meet our aesthetic goals,
which was always going to be a challenge, but we pulled and pushed the
engineers and gradually we were able to create a car that is a modern
interpretation of what has gone before. My take on retro design is
that you shouldn't repeat what has gone before but you can offer up
nods that remind people of it. That's what we've done.
"You also have to remember that this is a vehicle that will typically
have a 15 to 20-year life. It doesn't get replaced after seven years
like a conventional car,
Is that right?
Many licensing authorities have age requirements for the vehicles that taxi
drives are allowed to use
In some cases a low as 4 years.
Does London really allow 15 YO vehicles?
Yes:

Percentage of
Age Total total fleet

0 1204 5.4%
1 1476 6.6%
2 1285 5.8%
3 1199 5.4%
4 1304 5.8%
5 1384 6.2%
6 1402 6.3%
7 1309 5.9%
8 2135 9.6%
9 1540 6.9%
10 1469 6.6%
11 1215 5.4%
12 1220 5.5%
13 1305 5.8%
14 1178 5.3%
15 1511 6.8%
16 158 0.7%
17 11 0.1%
18 2 0.0%
19 2 0.0%
20 1 0.0%
Grand
Total 22310 100.0%
<https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/spread_of_ages_of_londons_black>

And these cabs are not just for London; many other cities may allow
longer lives.
James Heaton
2018-01-25 19:17:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 17:33:41 -0800 (PST)
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the
look
of
the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite old-fashioned
('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the skin (unlike the
primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets, they should
start
to
clean up the dirty air in central London.
<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-black-cab-now
operational-capital>
It looks great.
It would be hard for it to look any worse than the current Noddy and
Big
Ears
car design. Though to me it still looks like it was designed by an
undergraduate when you compare it with all the other MPVs on the
market
which
is essentially all it is with taxi specific bits and pieces added on.
ISTM that its deliberately designed to look as much like a historic London
cab as possible
whether you need skilled designers to do that, I couldn't possibly comment
Well, they certainly had skilled, well-respected designers on the
project. Peter Horbury (one of the world's top car designers), who was
"The starting point was to meet the requirements of such a vehicle -
the turning circle, the powertrain, the driver's space and then
carrying capacity. In truth, what we were then left with was a square
box. To get the shape, we then required to meet our aesthetic goals,
which was always going to be a challenge, but we pulled and pushed the
engineers and gradually we were able to create a car that is a modern
interpretation of what has gone before. My take on retro design is
that you shouldn't repeat what has gone before but you can offer up
nods that remind people of it. That's what we've done.
"You also have to remember that this is a vehicle that will typically
have a 15 to 20-year life. It doesn't get replaced after seven years
like a conventional car,
Is that right?
Many licensing authorities have age requirements for the vehicles that taxi
drives are allowed to use
In some cases a low as 4 years.
Does London really allow 15 YO vehicles?
Big snip
Post by Recliner
And these cabs are not just for London; many other cities may allow
longer lives.
Many authorities limit the age at first registration with the authority.
Once registered, and subject to the stringent examination regime - if it
keeps passing, you can keep driving it.

e.g. the authority I work for - no limit on first registration; testing
annually at an approved garage, or twice yearly if vehicle is 8yrs or older.

The adjacent authority I'm on contract to - 5yrs and 70k miles limit on
first registration, with some small exceptions. Maximum age generally 10yrs
with no mileage limit. For vehicles in exceptional condition, 12yrs with
240k limit, or 14yrs with 200k limit, or any age with 160k limit - all
subject to passing the mechanical test.

James
Recliner
2018-01-25 21:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Heaton
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 17:33:41 -0800 (PST)
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
This is an all-new model in every sense, but tries hard to keep the
look
of
the traditional London black cab. It therefore looks quite old-fashioned
('classic') at first, but is very high-tech under the skin (unlike the
primitive old ones). As more of them hit the streets, they should
start
to
clean up the dirty air in central London.
<https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-levc-tx-london-black-cab-now
operational-capital>
It looks great.
It would be hard for it to look any worse than the current Noddy and
Big
Ears
car design. Though to me it still looks like it was designed by an
undergraduate when you compare it with all the other MPVs on the
market
which
is essentially all it is with taxi specific bits and pieces added on.
ISTM that its deliberately designed to look as much like a historic London
cab as possible
whether you need skilled designers to do that, I couldn't possibly comment
Well, they certainly had skilled, well-respected designers on the
project. Peter Horbury (one of the world's top car designers), who was
"The starting point was to meet the requirements of such a vehicle -
the turning circle, the powertrain, the driver's space and then
carrying capacity. In truth, what we were then left with was a square
box. To get the shape, we then required to meet our aesthetic goals,
which was always going to be a challenge, but we pulled and pushed the
engineers and gradually we were able to create a car that is a modern
interpretation of what has gone before. My take on retro design is
that you shouldn't repeat what has gone before but you can offer up
nods that remind people of it. That's what we've done.
"You also have to remember that this is a vehicle that will typically
have a 15 to 20-year life. It doesn't get replaced after seven years
like a conventional car,
Is that right?
Many licensing authorities have age requirements for the vehicles that taxi
drives are allowed to use
In some cases a low as 4 years.
Does London really allow 15 YO vehicles?
Big snip
Post by Recliner
And these cabs are not just for London; many other cities may allow
longer lives.
Many authorities limit the age at first registration with the authority.
Once registered, and subject to the stringent examination regime - if it
keeps passing, you can keep driving it.
e.g. the authority I work for - no limit on first registration; testing
annually at an approved garage, or twice yearly if vehicle is 8yrs or older.
The adjacent authority I'm on contract to - 5yrs and 70k miles limit on
first registration, with some small exceptions. Maximum age generally 10yrs
with no mileage limit. For vehicles in exceptional condition, 12yrs with
240k limit, or 14yrs with 200k limit, or any age with 160k limit - all
subject to passing the mechanical test.
If it varies so much even between adjacent areas, I wonder how it varies
between countries, even within Europe? These cabs are intended for
worldwide sales (though I'd imagine Geely will build them in China for
Asian sales).
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