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Crossrail 2 funding row
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Recliner
2017-06-22 08:22:45 UTC
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<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-push-back-against>
Roland Perry
2017-06-22 09:17:04 UTC
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ember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-
push-back-against>
Cliche-fest:

"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL)
over funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the £31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.

Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to
keep the timeline of the key railway link on track.

In the mayor's transport strategy, unveiled yesterday, Sadiq Khan said
the government "must immediately" give the go-ahead for Crossrail 2."

'Give it the green light' surely??

In other news:

"Read more: Crossrail 2 set to be derailed by the General Election"
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2017-06-24 06:24:29 UTC
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ember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-
push-back-against>
"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL) over
funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the £31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.
Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to keep
the timeline of the key railway link on track.
It took 30 years for CR1 to get from proposals to begin built

and they expect CR2 to get authorisation in weeks

unbelievable

tim
Recliner
2017-06-24 22:18:01 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
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ember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-
push-back-against>
"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL) over
funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the £31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.
Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to keep
the timeline of the key railway link on track.
It took 30 years for CR1 to get from proposals to begin built
and they expect CR2 to get authorisation in weeks
unbelievable
It would be if that's what they were expecting to get in weeks. But they
weren't that stupid.
tim...
2017-06-25 09:32:22 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
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ember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-
push-back-against>
"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL) over
funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the £31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.
Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to keep
the timeline of the key railway link on track.
It took 30 years for CR1 to get from proposals to begin built
and they expect CR2 to get authorisation in weeks
unbelievable
It would be if that's what they were expecting to get in weeks. But they
weren't that stupid.#
what part of:

"Crossrail 2 planners had *wanted* a decision on it by the end of May to
..."

did you not understand?

tim
Recliner
2017-06-25 09:56:30 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
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ember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-
push-back-against>
"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL) over
funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the £31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.
Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to keep
the timeline of the key railway link on track.
It took 30 years for CR1 to get from proposals to begin built
and they expect CR2 to get authorisation in weeks
unbelievable
It would be if that's what they were expecting to get in weeks. But they
weren't that stupid.#
"Crossrail 2 planners had *wanted* a decision on it by the end of May to
..."
did you not understand?
"The current timeline envisions a hybrid bill being submitted to parliament
by the autumn of 2019 for Royal Assent by 2021/2022, and construction to
commence that year. The rail route would then be ready to open for 2033,
which would also tie in with the second phase of HS2."

In that best-case timeline, when do you think the *decision* would actually
be made?

Right now, they don't even have an agreed route.
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-06-25 00:33:18 UTC
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eptember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-push-
back-against>
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL)
over funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the £31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.
Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to
keep the timeline of the key railway link on track.
It took 30 years for CR1 to get from proposals to begin built
and they expect CR2 to get authorisation in weeks
unbelievable
It would be if that's what they were expecting to get in weeks. But they
weren't that stupid.
And Chelney, the basis for the Crossrail 2 plans, goes back decades as
Crossrail did. So this is not an instant demand at all.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Recliner
2017-06-25 09:07:27 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
In message
eptember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-push-
back-against>
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL)
over funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the Ģ31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.
Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to
keep the timeline of the key railway link on track.
It took 30 years for CR1 to get from proposals to begin built
and they expect CR2 to get authorisation in weeks
unbelievable
It would be if that's what they were expecting to get in weeks. But they
weren't that stupid.
And Chelney, the basis for the Crossrail 2 plans, goes back decades as
Crossrail did. So this is not an instant demand at all.
Yes, I worked in Chelsea more than two decades ago, and the proposed
Chelney line was already old news. The proposal apparently goes back to
1974, and even optimists think it won't open for at least another 15 years.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossrail_2#1970s

So, it could easily be 60 years between the first serious proposal and the
line's opening. It makes Crossrail look fast and easy!
tim...
2017-06-25 09:35:21 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
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eptember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-push-
back-against>
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL)
over funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the £31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.
Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to
keep the timeline of the key railway link on track.
It took 30 years for CR1 to get from proposals to begin built
and they expect CR2 to get authorisation in weeks
unbelievable
It would be if that's what they were expecting to get in weeks. But they
weren't that stupid.
And Chelney, the basis for the Crossrail 2 plans, goes back decades as
Crossrail did.
but that's a completely different scheme, bearing no relationship to CR2
whatsoever

All it was was a simple (!) new tube line through the centre of London,
utilizing two existing branches as the end points

tim
Recliner
2017-06-25 09:56:30 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
In message
eptember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-push-
back-against>
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL)
over funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the £31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.
Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to
keep the timeline of the key railway link on track.
It took 30 years for CR1 to get from proposals to begin built
and they expect CR2 to get authorisation in weeks
unbelievable
It would be if that's what they were expecting to get in weeks. But they
weren't that stupid.
And Chelney, the basis for the Crossrail 2 plans, goes back decades as
Crossrail did.
but that's a completely different scheme, bearing no relationship to CR2
whatsoever
All it was was a simple (!) new tube line through the centre of London,
utilizing two existing branches as the end points
It largely followed the same route, and the current plan is essentially
also a "a simple (!) new tube line through the centre of London utilizing
existing branches as the end points". So in what sense exactly does CR2
bear no relation to the Chelney line whatever?
tim...
2017-06-25 20:23:39 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
In message
eptember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-push-
back-against>
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL)
over funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the £31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.
Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to
keep the timeline of the key railway link on track.
It took 30 years for CR1 to get from proposals to begin built
and they expect CR2 to get authorisation in weeks
unbelievable
It would be if that's what they were expecting to get in weeks. But they
weren't that stupid.
And Chelney, the basis for the Crossrail 2 plans, goes back decades as
Crossrail did.
but that's a completely different scheme, bearing no relationship to CR2
whatsoever
All it was was a simple (!) new tube line through the centre of London,
utilizing two existing branches as the end points
It largely followed the same route,
no it doesn't

the original Chelsea route was to use the District line from Wimbledon to
Putney and then tunnel from there, via Chelsea though central London and
onwards.

None of this dog's leg tunnel to Clapham via Balham was involved at all

And there were to be no connection at Wimbledon with Southern services
(that's the BR region, not the privatised ToC)
Post by Recliner
and the current plan is essentially
also a "a simple (!) new tube line through the centre of London utilizing
existing branches as the end points". So in what sense exactly does CR2
bear no relation to the Chelney line whatever?
it's not a tube line. It will be built to mainline gauge and the branches
that it utilises as end point require an extra 10 miles of tunnel to reach
them

The tunneling is much more complicated, and much longer

tim
Recliner
2017-06-25 20:43:55 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
In message
eptember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-push-
back-against>
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL)
over funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the £31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.
Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to
keep the timeline of the key railway link on track.
It took 30 years for CR1 to get from proposals to begin built
and they expect CR2 to get authorisation in weeks
unbelievable
It would be if that's what they were expecting to get in weeks. But they
weren't that stupid.
And Chelney, the basis for the Crossrail 2 plans, goes back decades as
Crossrail did.
but that's a completely different scheme, bearing no relationship to CR2
whatsoever
All it was was a simple (!) new tube line through the centre of London,
utilizing two existing branches as the end points
It largely followed the same route,
no it doesn't
the original Chelsea route was to use the District line from Wimbledon to
Putney and then tunnel from there, via Chelsea though central London and
onwards.
None of this dog's leg tunnel to Clapham via Balham was involved at all
And there were to be no connection at Wimbledon with Southern services
(that's the BR region, not the privatised ToC)
Sure, that was when it was planned to be part of LU. Changing the
connection to be to the Waterloo line hasn't changed the concept.
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
and the current plan is essentially
also a "a simple (!) new tube line through the centre of London utilizing
existing branches as the end points". So in what sense exactly does CR2
bear no relation to the Chelney line whatever?
it's not a tube line. It will be built to mainline gauge and the branches
that it utilises as end point require an extra 10 miles of tunnel to reach
them.
The Chelney line had already been changed to have full-size District line
trains (which are wider than most mainline trains), so the change to larger
diameter tunnels pre-dates CR2.
Post by tim...
The tunneling is much more complicated, and much longer.
In what sense is the tunneling more complicated? It follows essentially
the same route through central London.

It's the underground interchange stations that are complicated and
expensive, not the running tunnels. With each iteration of the plan since
1974, the route has changed, and it's still changing. The latest CR2
proposal has fewer underground stations, so is probably simpler and cheaper
than the original Chelney proposal; even the eponymous Chelsea station is
likely to be dropped.
Ding Bat
2017-08-14 02:37:34 UTC
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Is HS2 feasible without CR2?
Recliner
2017-08-14 07:45:44 UTC
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Is HS2 feasible without CR2?
Yes.

HS2 phases 1 and 2a are scheduled to open long before CR2 could be
completed, so CR2 isn't relevant to them. Passengers arriving at Euston
will, as now, have direct connections to both Northern line branches
(hopefully benefiting from a much higher frequency than today), the
Victoria line, and an improved link to the Met, Circle and H&C at Euston
Square.

The extra pax conveyed by HS2 after phase 2 would certainly benefit from
CR2, but many could get to their destination by changing to Crossrail at
OOC instead. That may be less convenient for some, but would significantly
reduce the load at Euston.

I'm assuming that HS2 won't be full on day one, but traffic will build over
time, so that makes a delay in CR2 tolerable.
Roland Perry
2017-08-14 08:12:46 UTC
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ember.org>, at 07:45:44 on Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Ding Bat
Is HS2 feasible without CR2?
Yes.
HS2 phases 1 and 2a are scheduled to open long before CR2 could be
completed, so CR2 isn't relevant to them. Passengers arriving at Euston
will, as now, have direct connections to both Northern line branches
(hopefully benefiting from a much higher frequency than today), the
Victoria line,
We can hope for the latter. Unfortunately the Victoria Line is saturated
there, southbound trains in the peaks having left Kings Cross with no
room at all.
Post by Recliner
and an improved link to the Met, Circle and H&C at Euston
Square.
That might be kite flown at an early stage, but the whole Euston design
is still in a state of flux (and *already* running at least 7yrs late).

iirc the link to Euston Square was *via* the CR2 station, and as with
most such modern links would involve a considerable amount of walking.

The vapourware travelator/people-mover from Euston to Kings Cross St
Pancras has already been scrapped, I think; so the subsurface lines have
even more to cope with.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2017-08-14 08:42:59 UTC
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ember.org>, at 07:45:44 on Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Ding Bat
Is HS2 feasible without CR2?
Yes.
HS2 phases 1 and 2a are scheduled to open long before CR2 could be
completed, so CR2 isn't relevant to them. Passengers arriving at Euston
will, as now, have direct connections to both Northern line branches
(hopefully benefiting from a much higher frequency than today), the
Victoria line,
We can hope for the latter. Unfortunately the Victoria Line is saturated
there, southbound trains in the peaks having left Kings Cross with no
room at all.
True, but I suppose that HS2 pax will tend to arrive after the busiest
time.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
and an improved link to the Met, Circle and H&C at Euston
Square.
That might be kite flown at an early stage, but the whole Euston design
is still in a state of flux (and *already* running at least 7yrs late).
iirc the link to Euston Square was *via* the CR2 station, and as with
most such modern links would involve a considerable amount of walking.
A lot less than today. Basically, they have to add a new connection to the
eastern end of the Euston Square platforms, which will be very close to the
HS2 platforms and concourse.

The SSR services should also be more frequent and reliable than today, with
the new signalling in place. I think that includes ATO.
Post by Roland Perry
The vapourware travelator/people-mover from Euston to Kings Cross St
Pancras has already been scrapped, I think; so the subsurface lines have
even more to cope with.
Yes
Roland Perry
2017-08-14 10:59:46 UTC
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ember.org>, at 08:42:59 on Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Ding Bat
Is HS2 feasible without CR2?
Yes.
HS2 phases 1 and 2a are scheduled to open long before CR2 could be
completed, so CR2 isn't relevant to them. Passengers arriving at Euston
will, as now, have direct connections to both Northern line branches
(hopefully benefiting from a much higher frequency than today), the
Victoria line,
We can hope for the latter. Unfortunately the Victoria Line is saturated
there, southbound trains in the peaks having left Kings Cross with no
room at all.
True, but I suppose that HS2 pax will tend to arrive after the busiest
time.
And get to work late/miss those important business appointments??
--
Roland Perry
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