Discussion:
Crossrail 2 funding row
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Recliner
2017-06-22 08:22:45 UTC
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<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-push-back-against>
Roland Perry
2017-06-22 09:17:04 UTC
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ember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-
push-back-against>
Cliche-fest:

"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL)
over funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the £31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.

Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to
keep the timeline of the key railway link on track.

In the mayor's transport strategy, unveiled yesterday, Sadiq Khan said
the government "must immediately" give the go-ahead for Crossrail 2."

'Give it the green light' surely??

In other news:

"Read more: Crossrail 2 set to be derailed by the General Election"
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2017-06-24 06:24:29 UTC
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ember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-
push-back-against>
"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL) over
funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the £31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.
Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to keep
the timeline of the key railway link on track.
It took 30 years for CR1 to get from proposals to begin built

and they expect CR2 to get authorisation in weeks

unbelievable

tim
Recliner
2017-06-24 22:18:01 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
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ember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-
push-back-against>
"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL) over
funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the £31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.
Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to keep
the timeline of the key railway link on track.
It took 30 years for CR1 to get from proposals to begin built
and they expect CR2 to get authorisation in weeks
unbelievable
It would be if that's what they were expecting to get in weeks. But they
weren't that stupid.
tim...
2017-06-25 09:32:22 UTC
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Post by Recliner
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Post by Roland Perry
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ember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-
push-back-against>
"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL) over
funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the £31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.
Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to keep
the timeline of the key railway link on track.
It took 30 years for CR1 to get from proposals to begin built
and they expect CR2 to get authorisation in weeks
unbelievable
It would be if that's what they were expecting to get in weeks. But they
weren't that stupid.#
what part of:

"Crossrail 2 planners had *wanted* a decision on it by the end of May to
..."

did you not understand?

tim
Recliner
2017-06-25 09:56:30 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
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Post by Roland Perry
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ember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
Post by Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-
push-back-against>
"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL) over
funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the £31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.
Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to keep
the timeline of the key railway link on track.
It took 30 years for CR1 to get from proposals to begin built
and they expect CR2 to get authorisation in weeks
unbelievable
It would be if that's what they were expecting to get in weeks. But they
weren't that stupid.#
"Crossrail 2 planners had *wanted* a decision on it by the end of May to
..."
did you not understand?
"The current timeline envisions a hybrid bill being submitted to parliament
by the autumn of 2019 for Royal Assent by 2021/2022, and construction to
commence that year. The rail route would then be ready to open for 2033,
which would also tie in with the second phase of HS2."

In that best-case timeline, when do you think the *decision* would actually
be made?

Right now, they don't even have an agreed route.
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-06-25 00:33:18 UTC
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eptember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-push-
back-against>
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL)
over funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the £31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.
Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to
keep the timeline of the key railway link on track.
It took 30 years for CR1 to get from proposals to begin built
and they expect CR2 to get authorisation in weeks
unbelievable
It would be if that's what they were expecting to get in weeks. But they
weren't that stupid.
And Chelney, the basis for the Crossrail 2 plans, goes back decades as
Crossrail did. So this is not an instant demand at all.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Recliner
2017-06-25 09:07:27 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
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eptember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-push-
back-against>
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL)
over funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the Ģ31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.
Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to
keep the timeline of the key railway link on track.
It took 30 years for CR1 to get from proposals to begin built
and they expect CR2 to get authorisation in weeks
unbelievable
It would be if that's what they were expecting to get in weeks. But they
weren't that stupid.
And Chelney, the basis for the Crossrail 2 plans, goes back decades as
Crossrail did. So this is not an instant demand at all.
Yes, I worked in Chelsea more than two decades ago, and the proposed
Chelney line was already old news. The proposal apparently goes back to
1974, and even optimists think it won't open for at least another 15 years.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossrail_2#1970s

So, it could easily be 60 years between the first serious proposal and the
line's opening. It makes Crossrail look fast and easy!
tim...
2017-06-25 09:35:21 UTC
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eptember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-push-
back-against>
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL)
over funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the £31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.
Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to
keep the timeline of the key railway link on track.
It took 30 years for CR1 to get from proposals to begin built
and they expect CR2 to get authorisation in weeks
unbelievable
It would be if that's what they were expecting to get in weeks. But they
weren't that stupid.
And Chelney, the basis for the Crossrail 2 plans, goes back decades as
Crossrail did.
but that's a completely different scheme, bearing no relationship to CR2
whatsoever

All it was was a simple (!) new tube line through the centre of London,
utilizing two existing branches as the end points

tim
Recliner
2017-06-25 09:56:30 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
eptember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-push-
back-against>
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL)
over funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the £31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.
Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to
keep the timeline of the key railway link on track.
It took 30 years for CR1 to get from proposals to begin built
and they expect CR2 to get authorisation in weeks
unbelievable
It would be if that's what they were expecting to get in weeks. But they
weren't that stupid.
And Chelney, the basis for the Crossrail 2 plans, goes back decades as
Crossrail did.
but that's a completely different scheme, bearing no relationship to CR2
whatsoever
All it was was a simple (!) new tube line through the centre of London,
utilizing two existing branches as the end points
It largely followed the same route, and the current plan is essentially
also a "a simple (!) new tube line through the centre of London utilizing
existing branches as the end points". So in what sense exactly does CR2
bear no relation to the Chelney line whatever?
tim...
2017-06-25 20:23:39 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
In message
eptember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-push-
back-against>
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL)
over funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the £31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.
Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to
keep the timeline of the key railway link on track.
It took 30 years for CR1 to get from proposals to begin built
and they expect CR2 to get authorisation in weeks
unbelievable
It would be if that's what they were expecting to get in weeks. But they
weren't that stupid.
And Chelney, the basis for the Crossrail 2 plans, goes back decades as
Crossrail did.
but that's a completely different scheme, bearing no relationship to CR2
whatsoever
All it was was a simple (!) new tube line through the centre of London,
utilizing two existing branches as the end points
It largely followed the same route,
no it doesn't

the original Chelsea route was to use the District line from Wimbledon to
Putney and then tunnel from there, via Chelsea though central London and
onwards.

None of this dog's leg tunnel to Clapham via Balham was involved at all

And there were to be no connection at Wimbledon with Southern services
(that's the BR region, not the privatised ToC)
Post by Recliner
and the current plan is essentially
also a "a simple (!) new tube line through the centre of London utilizing
existing branches as the end points". So in what sense exactly does CR2
bear no relation to the Chelney line whatever?
it's not a tube line. It will be built to mainline gauge and the branches
that it utilises as end point require an extra 10 miles of tunnel to reach
them

The tunneling is much more complicated, and much longer

tim
Recliner
2017-06-25 20:43:55 UTC
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Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
In message
eptember.org>, at 08:22:45 on Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Recliner
<http://www.cityam.com/267134/whitehall-feud-over-crossrail-2-ministers-push-
back-against>
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Roland Perry
"Rising tension between the government and Transport for London (TfL)
over funding plans for Crossrail 2 is threatening to shunt the £31bn
infrastructure project into the sidings.
Crossrail 2 planners had wanted a decision on it by the end of May to
keep the timeline of the key railway link on track.
It took 30 years for CR1 to get from proposals to begin built
and they expect CR2 to get authorisation in weeks
unbelievable
It would be if that's what they were expecting to get in weeks. But they
weren't that stupid.
And Chelney, the basis for the Crossrail 2 plans, goes back decades as
Crossrail did.
but that's a completely different scheme, bearing no relationship to CR2
whatsoever
All it was was a simple (!) new tube line through the centre of London,
utilizing two existing branches as the end points
It largely followed the same route,
no it doesn't
the original Chelsea route was to use the District line from Wimbledon to
Putney and then tunnel from there, via Chelsea though central London and
onwards.
None of this dog's leg tunnel to Clapham via Balham was involved at all
And there were to be no connection at Wimbledon with Southern services
(that's the BR region, not the privatised ToC)
Sure, that was when it was planned to be part of LU. Changing the
connection to be to the Waterloo line hasn't changed the concept.
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
and the current plan is essentially
also a "a simple (!) new tube line through the centre of London utilizing
existing branches as the end points". So in what sense exactly does CR2
bear no relation to the Chelney line whatever?
it's not a tube line. It will be built to mainline gauge and the branches
that it utilises as end point require an extra 10 miles of tunnel to reach
them.
The Chelney line had already been changed to have full-size District line
trains (which are wider than most mainline trains), so the change to larger
diameter tunnels pre-dates CR2.
Post by tim...
The tunneling is much more complicated, and much longer.
In what sense is the tunneling more complicated? It follows essentially
the same route through central London.

It's the underground interchange stations that are complicated and
expensive, not the running tunnels. With each iteration of the plan since
1974, the route has changed, and it's still changing. The latest CR2
proposal has fewer underground stations, so is probably simpler and cheaper
than the original Chelney proposal; even the eponymous Chelsea station is
likely to be dropped.

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