Discussion:
Arn't all new buses in London supposed to be hybrids?
(too old to reply)
s***@potato.field
2017-02-09 09:25:54 UTC
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Or did I get the wrong end of the stick? Some brand new 66 plate single
deckers have appeared on the W9 and they're plain old diesel.
--
Spud
Paul Corfield
2017-02-21 18:05:28 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Or did I get the wrong end of the stick? Some brand new 66 plate single
deckers have appeared on the W9 and they're plain old diesel.
--
Spud
Err new DD buses in *Central London* have to be hybrids. Single decks have to zero emission in Zone 1. Some other routes further out have gained them but there's no consistent approach. The new buses on the W9 are to euro6 standard so are low emission. The Mayor's policy re the ULEZ means there will be more hybrid double deckers bought new with a massive programme of retrofitting existing fleet vehicles to bring them to either euro6 or euro6 equivalent. There are simply far too many buses with at least 7-10 years service life left for them all to be booted out of the fleet and replaced with new vehicles. There are also two other huge issues - there needs to be an enormous increase in electricity generation if London is to have a lot of electric buses with overnight charging. There is also a development gap in the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and even fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't think that's very healthy. There are some Optare electric buses but their reliability seems dubious. Single deck hybrids have broadly failed in London - several fleets have had short service lives and then been scrapped prematurely. This poses a big problem for TfL hence the current reliance on buying euro6 spec diesel single decks. It will be interesting to see if the bus manufacturers can produce reliable and affordable hybrid / electric single decks in the range of sizes that London's network needs.
--
Paul C
via Google
Clank
2017-02-21 19:05:11 UTC
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Post by Paul Corfield
Post by s***@potato.field
Or did I get the wrong end of the stick? Some brand new 66 plate single
deckers have appeared on the W9 and they're plain old diesel.
--
Spud
Err new DD buses in *Central London* have to be hybrids. Single decks have to zero emission in Zone 1. Some other routes further out have gained them but there's no consistent approach. The new buses on the W9 are to euro6 standard so are low emission. The Mayor's policy re the ULEZ means there will be more hybrid double deckers bought new with a massive programme of retrofitting existing fleet vehicles to bring them to either euro6 or euro6 equivalent. There are simply far too many buses with at least 7-10 years service life left for them all to be booted out of the fleet and replaced with new vehicles. There are also two other huge issues - there needs to be an enormous increase in electricity generation if London is to have a lot of electric buses with overnight charging. There is also a development gap in the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and even fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't think that's very healthy. There are some Optare electric buses but their reliability seems dubious. Single deck hybrids have broadly failed in London - several fleets have had short service lives and then been scrapped prematurely. This poses a big problem for TfL hence the current reliance on buying euro6 spec diesel single decks. It will be interesting to see if the bus manufacturers can produce reliable and affordable hybrid / electric single decks in the range of sizes that London's network needs.
It remains a mystery to me why London spends a fortune on hybrid and battery
powered buses (complete with the inefficiency of adding a load of weight in
the form of decidedly environmentally unfriendly batteries to every bus) to
address a problem that in a sane nation would be solved with trolleybuses.
Paul Corfield
2017-02-21 22:08:55 UTC
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Post by Clank
Post by Paul Corfield
Post by s***@potato.field
Or did I get the wrong end of the stick? Some brand new 66 plate single
deckers have appeared on the W9 and they're plain old diesel.
--
Spud
Err new DD buses in *Central London* have to be hybrids. Single decks have to zero emission in Zone 1. Some other routes further out have gained them but there's no consistent approach. The new buses on the W9 are to euro6 standard so are low emission. The Mayor's policy re the ULEZ means there will be more hybrid double deckers bought new with a massive programme of retrofitting existing fleet vehicles to bring them to either euro6 or euro6 equivalent. There are simply far too many buses with at least 7-10 years service life left for them all to be booted out of the fleet and replaced with new vehicles. There are also two other huge issues - there needs to be an enormous increase in electricity generation if London is to have a lot of electric buses with overnight charging. There is also a development gap in the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and even fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't think that's very healthy. There are some Optare electric buses but their reliability seems dubious. Single deck hybrids have broadly failed in London - several fleets have had short service lives and then been scrapped prematurely. This poses a big problem for TfL hence the current reliance on buying euro6 spec diesel single decks. It will be interesting to see if the bus manufacturers can produce reliable and affordable hybrid / electric single decks in the range of sizes that London's network needs.
It remains a mystery to me why London spends a fortune on hybrid and battery
powered buses (complete with the inefficiency of adding a load of weight in
the form of decidedly environmentally unfriendly batteries to every bus) to
address a problem that in a sane nation would be solved with trolleybuses.
Well yes but I suspect the prejudices of the Cities of London, Westminster and Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea are as strong now as they were back in the 30s. Can't wires fixed to our lovely buildings - heaven forfend!
--
Paul C
via Google
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-02-22 00:36:27 UTC
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Post by Paul Corfield
Post by Clank
Post by Paul Corfield
Post by s***@potato.field
Or did I get the wrong end of the stick? Some brand new 66 plate
single deckers have appeared on the W9 and they're plain old diesel.
Err new DD buses in *Central London* have to be hybrids. Single decks
have to zero emission in Zone 1. Some other routes further out have
gained them but there's no consistent approach. The new buses on the W9
are to euro6 standard so are low emission. The Mayor's policy re the
ULEZ means there will be more hybrid double deckers bought new with a
massive programme of retrofitting existing fleet vehicles to bring them
to either euro6 or euro6 equivalent. There are simply far too many
buses with at least 7-10 years service life left for them all to be
booted out of the fleet and replaced with new vehicles. There are also
two other huge issues - there needs to be an enormous increase in
electricity generation if London is to have a lot of electric buses
with overnight charging. There is also a development gap in the bus
market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and even
fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly
on producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I
don't think that's very healthy. There are some Optare electric buses
but their reliability seems dubious. Single deck hybrids have broadly
failed in London - several fleets have had short service lives and then
been scrapped prematurely. This poses a big problem for TfL hence the
current reliance on buying euro6 spec diesel single decks. It will be
interesting to see if the bus manufacturers can produce reliable and
affordable hybrid / electric single decks in the range of sizes that
London's network needs.
It remains a mystery to me why London spends a fortune on hybrid and
battery powered buses (complete with the inefficiency of adding a load
of weight in the form of decidedly environmentally unfriendly batteries
to every bus) to address a problem that in a sane nation would be solved
with trolleybuses.
Well yes but I suspect the prejudices of the Cities of London,
Westminster and Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea are as strong
now as they were back in the 30s. Can't wires fixed to our lovely
buildings - heaven forfend!
It was in the 1900s not the 1930s. They have a choice, wires or choke to
death. Simple
--
Colin Rosenstiel
d***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-02-22 01:06:41 UTC
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On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 18:36:27 -0600, ***@cix.compulink.co.uk
wrote:

to address a problem that in a sane nation would be solved
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Paul Corfield
Post by Clank
with trolleybuses.
Well yes but I suspect the prejudices of the Cities of London,
Westminster and Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea are as strong
now as they were back in the 30s. Can't wires fixed to our lovely
buildings - heaven forfend!
It was in the 1900s not the 1930s. They have a choice, wires or choke to
death. Simple
Going off at a tangent I caught a glimpse of that drama broadcast on
the Beeb on Sunday night set in an occupied WW2 London For just a
moment there was a scene when some overhead wiring had been CGI'd into
the scene, it was so quick that I wasn't sure if it was Tram or
Trolleybus so this evening I played the recording again.
Full marks to actually thinking to put such detail in but on closer
look it is a modern continental design not heavy Ohio Brass style
equipment like London used. Still I expect 99.9% viewers would not
really know what it was supposed to represent at all.

G.Harman
Basil Jet
2017-02-22 01:17:34 UTC
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They have a choice, wires or choke to death. Simple
Wires look like crap. What's wrong with hydrogen buses?
s***@potato.field
2017-02-22 09:48:49 UTC
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On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 01:17:34 +0000
Post by Basil Jet
They have a choice, wires or choke to death. Simple
Wires look like crap. What's wrong with hydrogen buses?
Supply and storage. Though there is one hydrogen bus route in london that
runs through southwark. Can't remember the number.
--
Spud
Neil Williams
2017-02-22 11:12:22 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Basil Jet
Wires look like crap. What's wrong with hydrogen buses?
Supply and storage. Though there is one hydrogen bus route in london that
runs through southwark. Can't remember the number.
RV1, which has always been rather a test bed for TfL.

Wires don't necessarily "look like crap", in any case. Decorative
poles can be used to enhance the look.

Neil
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Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
Mark
2017-02-23 12:11:31 UTC
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Post by Neil Williams
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Basil Jet
Wires look like crap. What's wrong with hydrogen buses?
Supply and storage. Though there is one hydrogen bus route in london that
runs through southwark. Can't remember the number.
RV1, which has always been rather a test bed for TfL.
Wires don't necessarily "look like crap", in any case. Decorative
poles can be used to enhance the look.
There was an RV1 broken down on the Aldwych this morning, completely blocking half of the road.

Central London is constantly dug up and rebuilt with many bus route diversions.
A trolleybus wouldn't be able to divert along an unwired road.

They're also a nuisance when the pickup arm gets disconnected from the wires.
Basil Jet
2017-02-23 13:31:32 UTC
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Post by Mark
There was an RV1 broken down on the Aldwych this morning, completely blocking half of the road.
"Oh the humanity" ;-)
Post by Mark
Central London is constantly dug up and rebuilt with many bus route diversions.
A trolleybus wouldn't be able to divert along an unwired road.
... unless it had a back-up battery or small diesel tank allowing a mile
or two off the wires, which would also remove the need to put countless
wires and junctions in the garage that were only used once a day.

How's the battery bus with charging pad in Walthamstow getting on?
Neil Williams
2017-02-23 13:31:55 UTC
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Post by Mark
Central London is constantly dug up and rebuilt with many bus route diversions.
A trolleybus wouldn't be able to divert along an unwired road.
Many of them have a small generator or battery for precisely that purpose.
Post by Mark
They're also a nuisance when the pickup arm gets disconnected from the wires.
It's not hard to put it back on using the ropes at the back.

Neil
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Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.
d***@yahoo.co.uk
2017-02-23 15:03:23 UTC
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On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:31:55 +0000, Neil Williams
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Mark
Central London is constantly dug up and rebuilt with many bus route diversions.
A trolleybus wouldn't be able to divert along an unwired road.
Many of them have a small generator or battery for precisely that purpose.
Wasn't there one London garage that depended on the buses reaching a
wired street by using their battery along an unwired one?
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Mark
They're also a nuisance when the pickup arm gets disconnected from the wires.
It's not hard to put it back on using the ropes at the back.
It is quite possible now to have automated systems that can position
the Trolleys onto the wires without a member of crew having to pull on
a rope or use a long insulated pole . That's provided that the
trolleys or the overhead hasn't been damaged due to the dewirement.
It would almost be a requirement now,when London had Trolleybuses last
time around they had conductors who could extract the bamboo pole from
underneath and rewire them. Even then they had problems with traffic
understandably pulling up close to the rear of the bus that did not
allow enough room for the bamboo to be withdrawn .Some systems carried
the pole on the side because of this.
In todays busy traffic having a driver leave his seat to wield a long
pole around or haul on a rope would soon have some impatient passenger
moaning like hell on twitter because he is late or a another road user
would get road rage and lump the driver one.

Ropes as used by trolley retrievers were very rare on British systems
, swinging ropes get easily caught on the top rear corners of a double
decker a problem that did affect the single deckers abroad who use the
rope system as std.

G.Harman
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-02-23 19:06:42 UTC
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Post by d***@yahoo.co.uk
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:31:55 +0000, Neil Williams
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Mark
Central London is constantly dug up and rebuilt with many bus route
diversions. A trolleybus wouldn't be able to divert along an unwired
road.
Many of them have a small generator or battery for precisely that purpose.
Wasn't there one London garage that depended on the buses reaching a
wired street by using their battery along an unwired one?
First of all, London trolleybuses didn't use garages. They used depots. They
were treated as rail less trams rather than buses. I'm sure no depots lacked
wired access but I have a feeling
Post by d***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Neil Williams
Post by Mark
They're also a nuisance when the pickup arm gets disconnected from the wires.
It's not hard to put it back on using the ropes at the back.
It is quite possible now to have automated systems that can position
the Trolleys onto the wires without a member of crew having to pull on
a rope or use a long insulated pole . That's provided that the
trolleys or the overhead hasn't been damaged due to the dewirement.
It would almost be a requirement now,when London had Trolleybuses last
time around they had conductors who could extract the bamboo pole from
underneath and rewire them. Even then they had problems with traffic
understandably pulling up close to the rear of the bus that did not
allow enough room for the bamboo to be withdrawn .Some systems carried
the pole on the side because of this.
In todays busy traffic having a driver leave his seat to wield a long
pole around or haul on a rope would soon have some impatient passenger
moaning like hell on twitter because he is late or a another road user
would get road rage and lump the driver one.
Which trolleybus systems have automated systems which restore booms after
dewirements? I've never heard of that and can't imagine how it might work
thinking of dewirements I observed in London and later in Brazil.

My recollections of the London system was that insulated poles were hung on
traction standards all over the network for use where dewirements (and
planned removals at lay-by points) were regular. They were much more often
used than those under the trolleybuses (I remember the holder tubes being
empty as often as not).
Post by d***@yahoo.co.uk
Ropes as used by trolley retrievers were very rare on British systems
, swinging ropes get easily caught on the top rear corners of a double
decker a problem that did affect the single deckers abroad who use the
rope system as std.
That would only be an issue if the booms were too short or positioned too
far forward on the roof.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
s***@potato.field
2017-02-23 20:27:51 UTC
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On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:06:42 -0600
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Which trolleybus systems have automated systems which restore booms after
dewirements? I've never heard of that and can't imagine how it might work
thinking of dewirements I observed in London and later in Brazil.
Given the state of image recognition software these days I image having a
camera that can spot the wires and then align the booms up with them would be
entirely possible.
--
Spud
Basil Jet
2017-02-23 21:08:57 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:06:42 -0600
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Which trolleybus systems have automated systems which restore booms after
dewirements? I've never heard of that and can't imagine how it might work
thinking of dewirements I observed in London and later in Brazil.
Given the state of image recognition software these days I image having a
camera that can spot the wires and then align the booms up with them would be
entirely possible.
Or just keep trying blind until the power comes back on. It wouldn't
take so long or be needed so often to be worth putting in extra
intelligence.

Does any city put Regent-Street-style Christmas decorations over
tram/trolley wires?
Clank
2017-02-23 21:29:43 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:06:42 -0600
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Which trolleybus systems have automated systems which restore booms after
dewirements? I've never heard of that and can't imagine how it might work
thinking of dewirements I observed in London and later in Brazil.
Given the state of image recognition software these days I image having a
camera that can spot the wires and then align the booms up with them would be
entirely possible.
Or just keep trying blind until the power comes back on. It wouldn't
take so long or be needed so often to be worth putting in extra
intelligence.
Does any city put Regent-Street-style Christmas decorations over
tram/trolley wires?
Pretty sure that's a yes. Here in Buc the adage 'less is more' is never
applied to Christmas lights, and they're strung over more or less every
major street (they make Regent Street look like a set of Argos LED tree
lights) - and we have both trams and trolleybuses. L'viv also has both
trams and trolleybuses and has lights strung across the streets at
Christmas, if I recall correctly. Moscow goes for lights in a big way
(albeit more in honour of New Year than Christmas,) although in my
observations mostly around pedestrianised streets and squares rather than
across the road as such.

Next year I'll take a closer look and report back )))
bob
2017-02-24 17:18:16 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:06:42 -0600
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Which trolleybus systems have automated systems which restore booms after
dewirements? I've never heard of that and can't imagine how it might work
thinking of dewirements I observed in London and later in Brazil.
Given the state of image recognition software these days I image having a
camera that can spot the wires and then align the booms up with them would be
entirely possible.
Or just keep trying blind until the power comes back on. It wouldn't
take so long or be needed so often to be worth putting in extra
intelligence.
Does any city put Regent-Street-style Christmas decorations over
tram/trolley wires?
Perhaps not as elaborate as Regent St, suspended Christmas lights above
Bahnhofstrasse are a feature of the Zürich decorations, and Bahnhofstrasse
has pretty intensive tram service along its length.


https://newinzurich.com/2014/12/christmas-new-year-shopping-hours-zurich/

Robin

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-02-23 14:27:25 UTC
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Post by Mark
Post by Neil Williams
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Basil Jet
Wires look like crap. What's wrong with hydrogen buses?
Supply and storage. Though there is one hydrogen bus route in london
that runs through southwark. Can't remember the number.
RV1, which has always been rather a test bed for TfL.
Wires don't necessarily "look like crap", in any case. Decorative
poles can be used to enhance the look.
There was an RV1 broken down on the Aldwych this morning, completely
blocking half of the road.
Central London is constantly dug up and rebuilt with many bus route
diversions. A trolleybus wouldn't be able to divert along an unwired road.
They're also a nuisance when the pickup arm gets disconnected from the wires.
Traction batteries would cope diversions. My experience of dewirements was
that the booms were restored pretty quickly, especially given that London
trolleybuses never had trolley ropes.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-02-23 00:08:35 UTC
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Post by Basil Jet
They have a choice, wires or choke to death. Simple
Wires look like crap. What's wrong with hydrogen buses?
What hydrogen buses?
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Recliner
2017-02-23 00:34:18 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Basil Jet
They have a choice, wires or choke to death. Simple
Wires look like crap. What's wrong with hydrogen buses?
What hydrogen buses?
These (taken back in 2014):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/sets/72157648736684940
s***@potato.field
2017-02-22 09:47:43 UTC
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On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:08:55 -0800 (PST)
It remains a mystery to me why London spends a fortune on hybrid and batt=
ery
powered buses (complete with the inefficiency of adding a load of weight=
in
the form of decidedly environmentally unfriendly batteries to every bus)=
to
address a problem that in a sane nation would be solved with trolleybuse=
s.
Well yes but I suspect the prejudices of the Cities of London, Westminster =
and Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea are as strong now as they were =
back in the 30s. Can't wires fixed to our lovely buildings - heaven forfen=
d!
Thats probably got a lot to do with it. I can't think of any other reason
as to why London doesn't install them other than nimbyism though ironically
westminster doesn't mind having garish xmas decorations strung up between the
buildings on oxford and regent street on huge wires for 2 months of the year.
--
Spud
s***@potato.field
2017-02-22 09:41:16 UTC
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On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 10:05:28 -0800 (PST)
the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and ev=
en fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on=
producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't t=
European manufacturers caught napping. They only have themselves to blame.
Though I suppose given the prevalence of trolleybuses in Europe the battery
bus market probably isn't huge over there.
--
Spud
tim...
2017-02-22 10:30:13 UTC
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Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 10:05:28 -0800 (PST)
the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and ev=
en fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on=
producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't t=
European manufacturers caught napping. They only have themselves to blame.
Though I suppose given the prevalence of trolleybuses in Europe
prevalence ?

I can thing of a few places

but only a very few

certainly nowhere near enough to make it a dominant factor for suppliers
Clank
2017-02-22 13:10:56 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 10:05:28 -0800 (PST)
the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and ev=
en fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on=
producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't t=
European manufacturers caught napping. They only have themselves to blame.
Though I suppose given the prevalence of trolleybuses in Europe
prevalence ?
I can thing of a few places
but only a very few
certainly nowhere near enough to make it a dominant factor for suppliers
I can't think of a city I visit regularly that doesn't have them, to be
honest.
Clank
2017-02-22 13:29:33 UTC
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Post by Clank
Post by tim...
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 10:05:28 -0800 (PST)
the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and ev=
en fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on=
producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't t=
European manufacturers caught napping. They only have themselves to blame.
Though I suppose given the prevalence of trolleybuses in Europe
prevalence ?
I can thing of a few places
but only a very few
certainly nowhere near enough to make it a dominant factor for suppliers
I can't think of a city I visit regularly that doesn't have them, to be
honest.
(Although I do accept that the cities I visit regularly are representative
of absolutely nothing ;-). But I do regularly visit a good half dozen
cities that all have trolleybuses (as well as living in one.))
tim...
2017-02-23 12:51:58 UTC
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Post by Clank
Post by tim...
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 10:05:28 -0800 (PST)
the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and ev=
en fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on=
producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't t=
European manufacturers caught napping. They only have themselves to blame.
Though I suppose given the prevalence of trolleybuses in Europe
prevalence ?
I can thing of a few places
but only a very few
certainly nowhere near enough to make it a dominant factor for suppliers
I can't think of a city I visit regularly that doesn't have them, to be
honest.
I recall you live in Romania (or have I got you mixed up with some else)

Hardly a representative sample
Clank
2017-02-23 13:09:00 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Clank
Post by tim...
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 10:05:28 -0800 (PST)
the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and ev=
en fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on=
producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't t=
European manufacturers caught napping. They only have themselves to blame.
Though I suppose given the prevalence of trolleybuses in Europe
prevalence ?
I can thing of a few places
but only a very few
certainly nowhere near enough to make it a dominant factor for suppliers
I can't think of a city I visit regularly that doesn't have them, to be
honest.
I recall you live in Romania (or have I got you mixed up with some else)
Hardly a representative sample
I'm not sure how where I live affects whether or not it's a representative
sample (clue: this year alone I've visited I think 7 cities in 7 countries
other than Romania, across 3 continents. Of those 7, one (Moscow) has, I
believe, the largest trolleybus system in the world, I gather, and at least
two others have systems.)

However, you're right, my sample is no more representative than, say, yours
would be. Which you'd know I'd already stated if you'd read my follow-up.
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-02-23 01:08:21 UTC
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In article
Post by Recliner
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Basil Jet
They have a choice, wires or choke to death. Simple
Wires look like crap. What's wrong with hydrogen buses?
What hydrogen buses?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/sets/72157648736684940
So, no double deckers then?
--
Colin Rosenstiel
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