Discussion:
SWT & NR - from deep alliance to deep something else
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Roland Perry
2017-08-20 11:05:51 UTC
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https://www.southwesttrains.co.uk now redirects to
https://www.southwesternrailway.com .
It's a shame they still use a network map that makes it look like
anyone in Salisbury who wants to get to Southampton or Eastleigh
would be better off walking or going via Basingstoke.
https://www.southwesternrailway.com/plan-my-journey/our-network
For a geographical comparison, disable the historic layer on
http://www.railmaponline.com/UKIEMap.php
Already pissed off with it pestering me for my location everytime I
change pages.
There's a box to tick to "remember" your answer.
Shouldn't be necessary, poor web design.
Anyway their map is virtually unreadable, even on a big monitor.
Unzoomable it appears too.
The ticket-buying facility sucks big-time too.
You have to set up a new account, why can't they just use your
existing one?
The Data Protection Act probably prevents this
Fullstop.
under their terms and conditions.
The DPA trumps the T&C in any event.
I use separate emails addresses for all my suppliers so I wouldn't want
my account transferred.
I note they have an incomplete list of railcards so I wont be using them.
This is an ongoing trend. When I had TfL u my senior card onto my Oyster
recently, the only option the hilariously mardy and untrained roving
chappie had to pick was "National Rail Cards". He insisted they were all
treated as one now when it came to validity (mainly time of day, I
suppose). I very much doubt that!
--
Roland Perry
Richard
2017-08-25 12:23:53 UTC
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On Sun, 20 Aug 2017 12:05:51 +0100, Roland Perry <***@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

[Choice of Railcards on SWR]
Post by Roland Perry
This is an ongoing trend. When I had TfL u my senior card onto my Oyster
recently, the only option the hilariously mardy and untrained roving
chappie had to pick was "National Rail Cards". He insisted they were all
treated as one now when it came to validity (mainly time of day, I
suppose). I very much doubt that!
Are the discounts only on Oyster off-peak fares? I think they would
be all the same in that case.

Richard.
Roland Perry
2017-08-25 13:14:56 UTC
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Post by Richard
[Choice of Railcards on SWR]
Post by Roland Perry
This is an ongoing trend. When I had TfL u my senior card onto my Oyster
recently, the only option the hilariously mardy and untrained roving
chappie had to pick was "National Rail Cards". He insisted they were all
treated as one now when it came to validity (mainly time of day, I
suppose). I very much doubt that!
Are the discounts only on Oyster off-peak fares? I think they would
be all the same in that case.
Network cards are strictly "after 10am", whereas the Senior Railcard is
"off-peak {may vary locally}"[1], and the F&F/TTG/Disabled Railcard is
"After 9.30am".

Even TfL admits: "The savings are slightly different for each card."

<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/adult-discounts-and-
concessions/railcards>

But how do they know, if all railcards are coded the same??

[1] For TfL fares their blanket off-peak is *depart* after 9.30, but for
National Rail the senior off-peak is *arrive* after 10am.
--
Roland Perry
Michael R N Dolbear
2017-08-25 15:46:23 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Richard
Are the discounts only on Oyster off-peak fares? I think they would
be all the same in that case.
Network cards are strictly "after 10am", whereas the Senior Railcard is
"off-peak {may vary locally}"[1], and the F&F/TTG/Disabled Railcard is
"After 9.30am".
Post by Roland Perry
Even TfL admits: "The savings are slightly different for each card."
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/adult-discounts-and-
concessions/railcards>
Post by Roland Perry
But how do they know, if all railcards are coded the same??
[1] For TfL fares their blanket off-peak is *depart* after 9.30, but for
National Rail the senior off-peak is *arrive* after 10am.
==
This isn't a Railcard matter but an off-peak matter - if you use Oyster on
NR I assume depart after 9:30 still applies?

Network cards should not allowed for Oyster discount and F&F/TTG logically
can't do it.

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/adult-discounts-and-concessions/railcards#on-this-page-9

Setting Railcard discount on an Oyster card

If you have a 16-25, Senior, HM Forces or Disabled Persons Railcard, you
need to get the discount set on an Oyster card. If you don't already have
one, you'll need to get an Oyster card and register it.

You can get the discount set at Tube, London Overground, TfL Rail and some
National Rail stations. To get the discount set at a Tube station, ask a
member of staff to set it for you. You can also get the discount set at
Oyster Ticket Stops and Visitor Centres. When you renew a National Railcard,
you will need to get the discount set again on your Oyster card.
==


You can also get the discount set at Oyster Ticket Stops . . . .

Has anyone tried this?
--
Mike D
Charles Ellson
2017-08-25 21:46:24 UTC
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On Fri, 25 Aug 2017 16:46:23 +0100, "Michael R N Dolbear"
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Richard
Are the discounts only on Oyster off-peak fares? I think they would
be all the same in that case.
Network cards are strictly "after 10am", whereas the Senior Railcard is
"off-peak {may vary locally}"[1], and the F&F/TTG/Disabled Railcard is
"After 9.30am".
Post by Roland Perry
Even TfL admits: "The savings are slightly different for each card."
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/adult-discounts-and-
concessions/railcards>
Post by Roland Perry
But how do they know, if all railcards are coded the same??
[1] For TfL fares their blanket off-peak is *depart* after 9.30, but for
National Rail the senior off-peak is *arrive* after 10am.
==
This isn't a Railcard matter but an off-peak matter - if you use Oyster on
NR I assume depart after 9:30 still applies?
No, it varies by proximity of the station to London (Met line), the
line or pair of stations being used and which direction you travel :-
http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/peak-off-peak-and-caps/
<snip>
Michael R N Dolbear
2017-08-26 00:11:48 UTC
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Post by Charles Ellson
Post by Michael R N Dolbear
Post by Roland Perry
[1] For TfL fares their blanket off-peak is *depart* after 9.30, but for
National Rail the senior off-peak is *arrive* after 10am.
Post by Charles Ellson
==
Post by Michael R N Dolbear
This isn't a Railcard matter but an off-peak matter - if you use Oyster on
NR I assume depart after 9:30 still applies?
No, it varies by proximity of the station to London (Met line), the
line or pair of stations being used and which direction you travel :-
http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/peak-off-peak-and-caps/
<snip>

Thanks, but that still means if you start inside Z6 depart after 9:30 or
04.30-06.30 works at least until 16:00 for NR as well as TfL.

Outside the zones, NR may be depart after 9:30 too so a railcard discount
except Network card.
--
Mike D
Roland Perry
2017-08-26 07:27:27 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Richard
Are the discounts only on Oyster off-peak fares? I think they would
be all the same in that case.
Network cards are strictly "after 10am", whereas the Senior Railcard is
"off-peak {may vary locally}"[1], and the F&F/TTG/Disabled Railcard is
"After 9.30am".
Post by Roland Perry
Even TfL admits: "The savings are slightly different for each card."
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/adult-discounts-and-
concessions/railcards>
Post by Roland Perry
But how do they know, if all railcards are coded the same??
[1] For TfL fares their blanket off-peak is *depart* after 9.30, but for
National Rail the senior off-peak is *arrive* after 10am.
==
This isn't a Railcard matter but an off-peak matter - if you use Oyster
on NR I assume depart after 9:30 still applies?
Network cards should not allowed for Oyster discount
Why not, if you are using Oyster to make an NR journey (I've travelled
Vauxhall to Waterloo on SWT before now).
Post by Roland Perry
and F&F/TTG logically can't do it.
I'd forgotten that one-Oyster per bum gotcha.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-08-26 10:13:52 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Richard
Are the discounts only on Oyster off-peak fares? I think they would
be all the same in that case.
Network cards are strictly "after 10am", whereas the Senior Railcard is
"off-peak {may vary locally}"[1], and the F&F/TTG/Disabled Railcard is
"After 9.30am".
Post by Roland Perry
Even TfL admits: "The savings are slightly different for each card."
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/adult-discounts-and-concessions/railc
ards>
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roland Perry
But how do they know, if all railcards are coded the same??
[1] For TfL fares their blanket off-peak is *depart* after 9.30, but
for National Rail the senior off-peak is *arrive* after 10am.
==
This isn't a Railcard matter but an off-peak matter - if you use Oyster
on NR I assume depart after 9:30 still applies?
Network cards should not allowed for Oyster discount
This got garbled somehow. Network cards are not relevant to Oyster because
they can't give rise to discount entitlements on Oyster.

It seems TTG is the same, with discounted (paper) Day Travelcards the only
option to obtain Railcard discounts. That means no discounts for many
journey combinations which even without discounts cost less than a Day
Travelcard.
Why not, if you are using Oyster to make an NR journey (I've
travelled Vauxhall to Waterloo on SWT before now).
Not sure what this means with my response corrected.
Post by Roland Perry
and F&F/TTG logically can't do it.
I'd forgotten that one-Oyster per bum gotcha.
The difference is whether the children are under 11 or not. under 11 they go
free. For accompanied 11-15 year-olds only travelling occasionally from
Cambridge the best option seems to be the poorly advertised £2 child Day
Travelcard. I must admit I've not tried adding F&F to more than one Oyster
card though.

"Holders of Disabled Persons Railcards can also get discounted travel during
peak hours"

I wonder how that works if the Railcard flag doesn't distinguish railcard
types? Maybe that statement is meant only to apply to Day Travelcards.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2017-08-26 11:53:46 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Network cards are not relevant to Oyster because
they can't give rise to discount entitlements on Oyster.
...
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Why not, if you are using Oyster to make an NR journey (I've
travelled Vauxhall to Waterloo on SWT before now).
Not sure what this means with my response corrected.
It means: where's the justice in being able to use a Network Card to get
a cheaper paper ticket, but not a cheaper Oyster trip?

Yes, there are some minimum fares with Network Cards but not at
weekends, and now Oyster is accepted at Gatwick and Shenfield that must
be more than £15 on weekdays [Later: yes fares Gatwick-Shenfield at
least £20]
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-08-26 17:23:15 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Network cards are not relevant to Oyster because
they can't give rise to discount entitlements on Oyster.
...
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Why not, if you are using Oyster to make an NR journey (I've
travelled Vauxhall to Waterloo on SWT before now).
Not sure what this means with my response corrected.
It means: where's the justice in being able to use a Network Card to
get a cheaper paper ticket, but not a cheaper Oyster trip?
Yes, there are some minimum fares with Network Cards but not at
weekends, and now Oyster is accepted at Gatwick and Shenfield that
must be more than £15 on weekdays [Later: yes fares Gatwick-Shenfield
at least £20]
Whatever. The Network Card has never been included in Oyster discounts.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
David Cantrell
2017-08-30 13:35:27 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
"Holders of Disabled Persons Railcards can also get discounted travel during
peak hours"
I wonder how that works if the Railcard flag doesn't distinguish railcard
types?
I don't know (and frankly don't care) how it's implemented, but I can
confirm that the disabled railcard discount on Oyster PAYG works at any
time of day.
--
David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist

You know you're getting old when you fancy the
teenager's parent and ignore the teenager
-- Paul M in uknot
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-08-25 23:51:12 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Richard
Are the discounts only on Oyster off-peak fares? I think they would
be all the same in that case.
Network cards are strictly "after 10am", whereas the Senior Railcard is
"off-peak {may vary locally}"[1], and the F&F/TTG/Disabled Railcard is
"After 9.30am".
Doesn't matter what the difference is. There are no Oyster discounts with
Network railcards.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
David Cantrell
2017-08-30 13:32:34 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Network cards are strictly "after 10am", whereas the Senior Railcard is
"off-peak {may vary locally}"[1], and the F&F/TTG/Disabled Railcard is
"After 9.30am".
There are no restrictions on when the discount for a Disabled railcard
applies.
--
David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive

Computer Science is about lofty design goals and careful algorithmic
optimisation. Sysadminning is about cleaning up the resulting mess.
Roland Perry
2017-08-30 15:03:41 UTC
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Post by David Cantrell
Post by Roland Perry
Network cards are strictly "after 10am", whereas the Senior Railcard is
"off-peak {may vary locally}"[1], and the F&F/TTG/Disabled Railcard is
"After 9.30am".
There are no restrictions on when the discount for a Disabled railcard
applies.
If true, it makes it even stranger that TfL are refusing to
differentiate between different railcards when applying discounts.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-08-30 19:34:32 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by David Cantrell
Post by Roland Perry
Network cards are strictly "after 10am", whereas the Senior Railcard is
"off-peak {may vary locally}"[1], and the F&F/TTG/Disabled Railcard is
"After 9.30am".
There are no restrictions on when the discount for a Disabled railcard
applies.
If true, it makes it even stranger that TfL are refusing to
differentiate between different railcards when applying discounts.
We are assuming that the railcard number, which is recorded against the
card, doesn't make the railcard type clear.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Someone Somewhere
2017-08-30 20:54:14 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by David Cantrell
Post by Roland Perry
Network cards are strictly "after 10am", whereas the Senior Railcard is
"off-peak {may vary locally}"[1], and the F&F/TTG/Disabled Railcard is
"After 9.30am".
There are no restrictions on when the discount for a Disabled railcard
applies.
If true, it makes it even stranger that TfL are refusing to
differentiate between different railcards when applying discounts.
We are assuming that the railcard number, which is recorded against the
card, doesn't make the railcard type clear.
But isn't the key thing about the Oyster card system is that it is
somewhat disconnected - ie it doesn't rely on a backend query to be able
to do anything?
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-08-30 23:52:08 UTC
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Post by Someone Somewhere
Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by David Cantrell
Post by Roland Perry
Network cards are strictly "after 10am", whereas the Senior Railcard
is "off-peak {may vary locally}"[1], and the F&F/TTG/Disabled
Railcard is "After 9.30am".
There are no restrictions on when the discount for a Disabled railcard
applies.
If true, it makes it even stranger that TfL are refusing to
differentiate between different railcards when applying discounts.
We are assuming that the railcard number, which is recorded against the
card, doesn't make the railcard type clear.
But isn't the key thing about the Oyster card system is that it is
somewhat disconnected - ie it doesn't rely on a backend query to be
able to do anything?
The number is recorded on the Oyster card.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Martin Coffee
2017-09-28 12:12:13 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Richard
[Choice of Railcards on SWR]
Post by Roland Perry
This is an ongoing trend. When I had TfL u my senior card onto my Oyster
recently, the only option the hilariously mardy and untrained roving
chappie had to pick was "National Rail Cards". He insisted they were all
treated as one now when it came to validity (mainly time of day, I
suppose). I very much doubt that!
Are the discounts only on Oyster off-peak fares? I think they would
be all the same in that case.
Network cards are strictly "after 10am", whereas the Senior Railcard is
"off-peak {may vary locally}"[1], and the F&F/TTG/Disabled Railcard is
"After 9.30am".
With the exception that the Senior Railcard has identical morning
restrictions as the Network one for journeys wholly within the Network area.
Post by Roland Perry
Even TfL admits: "The savings are slightly different for each card."
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/adult-discounts-and-
concessions/railcards>
But how do they know, if all railcards are coded the same??
[1] For TfL fares their blanket off-peak is *depart* after 9.30, but for
National Rail the senior off-peak is *arrive* after 10am.
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-09-28 23:06:55 UTC
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Post by Martin Coffee
Post by Roland Perry
Network cards are strictly "after 10am", whereas the Senior Railcard is
"off-peak {may vary locally}"[1], and the F&F/TTG/Disabled Railcard is
"After 9.30am".
With the exception that the Senior Railcard has identical morning
restrictions as the Network one for journeys wholly within the
Network area.
No. From my actual experience, Roland is right. Only the Network Card has
the "no travel before 10 am" restriction.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2017-09-29 05:46:49 UTC
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Post by Martin Coffee
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Richard
[Choice of Railcards on SWR]
Post by Roland Perry
This is an ongoing trend. When I had TfL u my senior card onto my Oyster
recently, the only option the hilariously mardy and untrained roving
chappie had to pick was "National Rail Cards". He insisted they were all
treated as one now when it came to validity (mainly time of day, I
suppose). I very much doubt that!
Are the discounts only on Oyster off-peak fares? I think they would
be all the same in that case.
Network cards are strictly "after 10am", whereas the Senior Railcard
is "off-peak {may vary locally}"[1], and the F&F/TTG/Disabled
Railcard is "After 9.30am".
With the exception that the Senior Railcard has identical morning
restrictions as the Network one for journeys wholly within the Network area.
No!!! That's precisely the point I was making.

For example, from where I live (within the NSE area) the first trains I
can use are:

Senior Card: depart 08:58, arr London 10:13 (1st opportunity to arrive
after 10am)

Network Card: depart 10:07, arr London 11:32 (1st opportunity to depart
after 10am)

in practice, one would get the next, and faster, train:

depart 10:25, arr London 11:35.

The Senior card has the same restriction as an Off-peak ticket, whereas
the Network Card is so restricted as to be useless for doing anything in
London before noon.
Post by Martin Coffee
Post by Roland Perry
Even TfL admits: "The savings are slightly different for each card."
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/adult-discounts-and-
concessions/railcards>
But how do they know, if all railcards are coded the same?? [1]
For TfL fares their blanket off-peak is *depart* after 9.30, but for
National Rail the senior off-peak is *arrive* after 10am.
--
Roland Perry
r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2017-09-29 10:41:23 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Martin Coffee
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Richard
[Choice of Railcards on SWR]
Post by Roland Perry
This is an ongoing trend. When I had TfL u my senior card onto my
Oyster recently, the only option the hilariously mardy and untrained
roving chappie had to pick was "National Rail Cards". He insisted
they were all treated as one now when it came to validity (mainly
time of day, I suppose). I very much doubt that!
Are the discounts only on Oyster off-peak fares? I think they would
be all the same in that case.
Network cards are strictly "after 10am", whereas the Senior Railcard
is "off-peak {may vary locally}"[1], and the F&F/TTG/Disabled
Railcard is "After 9.30am".
With the exception that the Senior Railcard has identical morning
restrictions as the Network one for journeys wholly within the Network area.
No!!! That's precisely the point I was making.
For example, from where I live (within the NSE area) the first trains
Senior Card: depart 08:58, arr London 10:13 (1st opportunity to arrive
after 10am)
Network Card: depart 10:07, arr London 11:32 (1st opportunity to depart
after 10am)
depart 10:25, arr London 11:35.
The Senior card has the same restriction as an Off-peak ticket,
whereas the Network Card is so restricted as to be useless for doing
anything in London before noon.
Roland is correct, if a bit Ely-centric. From Cambridge one can be at King's
Cross just after 11.

For nearly a decade I had a job in central London. It was only part time, 20
hours a week, so depended on getting cheap travel based on of-peak day
returns using Network Railcard discounts (and an ability to stay
occasionally with my parents in Putney to get an earlier start).

Later in the job I passed the age of 60 so was able to tell my boss in
advance that when I reached that age I would be able to get to work an hour
earlier because the first off-peak train reaches London just after 10.
--
Colin Rosenstiel
Roland Perry
2017-09-29 11:37:53 UTC
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Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Roland Perry
For example, from where I live (within the NSE area) the first trains
Senior Card: depart 08:58, arr London 10:13 (1st opportunity to arrive
after 10am)
Network Card: depart 10:07, arr London 11:32 (1st opportunity to depart
after 10am)
depart 10:25, arr London 11:35.
The Senior card has the same restriction as an Off-peak ticket,
whereas the Network Card is so restricted as to be useless for doing
anything in London before noon.
Roland is correct, if a bit Ely-centric. From Cambridge one can be at King's
Cross just after 11.
It's no so much *Ely* centric, as *distance from London-centric*,
although due to a combination of timetable quirks and perhaps some
easements, it doesn't get "worse" [than 11:35] all the way to Kings
Lynn.
--
Roland Perry
David Cantrell
2017-10-02 16:40:29 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Richard
Are the discounts only on Oyster off-peak fares? I think they would
be all the same in that case.
Network cards are strictly "after 10am", whereas the Senior Railcard is
"off-peak {may vary locally}"[1], and the F&F/TTG/Disabled Railcard is
"After 9.30am".
Disabled card discounts apply all the time.
--
David Cantrell | A machine for turning tea into grumpiness

Today's previously unreported paraphilia is tomorrow's Internet sensation
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